Sarahel's Semiotics 4U

steve shasta i think u are missing the point, arbitrary as men's clothing sizes may be, they at least imply a relatiotionship with an actual measurement, 32 in a men's trousers actually means the waist is 32 inches, yeah it is usually bollocks but the relationship between sign and signified is pretty clear cut, wtf is size six supposed to mean, its more abstract and therefore invents its own connotations in relationship to women's bodies without anything as formal as a measurement it seems

^ yes. men's clothes doesn't have a 0, for example. the fact that both have vanity sizing just means both want to be smaller than they are, which is another (related) problem.

if you go to pull and bear in ireland they don't do size small, the label says Spain: M Ireland : S or Spain: L Ireland M.

hang on, can we get back to that 'false choice' thing, because much as I <3 debord, deleuze &c &c, and much as that quote is OTM re: aspirational marketing, false lifestyle dichotomies and other such symbiotic competitive ventures, I would argue that fundamentally instinctive entertainments such as sport, and necessary civic arbitrations such as elections, are somewhat above the insidious corporate spectacle being addressed by debord. supporting a sports team is not like choosing a piece of clothing or a new kitchen. it comes much more naturally; it is tribal, and is not suggested so much as implored. as for voting in an election, the falseness of the choice depends on what information is available, and how trustworthy it is.

duped by "democracy"

PLAXICO I THINK YOU'RE ACTUALLY MISSING THE POINT TBF

MEN DON'T WEAR TOP/BOTTOM CLOTHING (EXCEPT FOR READY TO WEAR SUITS)

YOU CAN GOOGLE WOMENSWEAR SIZING TO LEARN THE HISTORY, IT'S NOT LIKE AN UNTAILORED PRET-A-PORTER CLOTHING IS SOMETHING BRAND NEW.

basically i was feeling a little harshed on, because i am a massive sports fan, and am trying to wriggle out of a poststructuralist hole that cannot be wriggled out of

i am "privileging" shasta's industry experience over unfocused attempts at uncovering semiotic "meaning" sorry guys!!

STEVE SHASTA I THINK WE'RE ON DIFFERENT CONTINENTS WITH DIFFERENT CLOTHES SIZING KEYS SO MAYBE THAT IT WHY WE KEEP GETTING OUR WIRES CROSSED BECAUSE I NO LONGER HAVE ONE CLUE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TBH

one can still be esoteric and nomadic with one's appreciation OF competitive sport as a whole, by having an overall interest in it, even if one focuses on the tribal element when forced to pick a side or when one's appointed tribe is stirred into action

see thread title tbqf elmo

the fact that competitive sports are fundamentally instinctive doesn't mean they can't be part of an insidious corporate spectacle
wide availability of trustworthy information doesn't mean the 'choice' is not false

How are men's clothes sized in Ireland, plaxico?

i like sports btw. elections not so much.

You don't have to pick a football team or vote, though, whereas you kind DO have to wear clothes, especially if, like sarahel, you have to work.

ALL IM SAYIN IS APPLES AND ORANGES TO COMPARE WOMENSWEAR AND MENSWEAR SIZING. WOMENS SIZING NEEDS TO BE 3D AND MENS DOESNT. A LOT OF FALSEHOODS IN THE OP. THE REAL ISSUE IS VANITY SIZING WHICH IS GENDER-NEUTRAL.

You don't have to pick a football team or vote, though

true

yes i saw that, thanks. now explain to me how a handbag or purse is really a baby? i mean using one patriarchal stereotype as a "cause" of other examples of sexism isn't really a methodology, is it?

How are men's clothes sized in Ireland, plaxico?

― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, August 11, 2009 9:12 PM (1 minute ago)

turns out its the same

it's not really a baby

the insidious corporate spectacle is not fundamental to competitive sports, however. in many cases it has hijacked top-level competitive sports but it is by no means intrinsic throughout. most discerning sports fans see through the BS and appreciate the elegance of the sport at all levels, not just the summit.

it depends on what one is choosing. if one is choosing a team to support, criteria can be drawn from a variety of sources, only the crudest ones spectacular. sentiment and proximity are generally the key factors. if one is choosing to follow competitive sports as a whole, then of course a spectacle is being sought, but it is a self-explanatory, non-corporate spectacle. the razzle-dazzle is merely a means of perpetuating false narratives of historical success and consistent glory, which I generally don't give a stuff about.

the same for elections. if one knows that a candidate will bring in the death penalty, and one won't, then the choice on those grounds is surely not false.

i like sports and not elections too fwiw although if we had better choices i would like elections more

how is handbag formed?

plaxico, it's like Brit sizing for men, right? It's just the shoes that off by a single size, iirc.

M White makes a good point. Where the Society of the Spectacle hits hardest is through inescapable societal requirements such as clothing, food, 'lifestyle choices', labels &c &c

plaxico, it's like Brit sizing for men, right? It's just the shoes that off by a single size, iirc.

― Le présent se dégrade, d'abord en histoire, puis en (Michael White), Tuesday, August 11, 2009 9:19 PM (33 seconds ago)

yeah, women's is different though so that's why I was getting confused

if one knows that a candidate will bring in the death penalty, and one won't, then the choice on those grounds is surely not false.

Single issue voter, eh? What if it's that one knows that one candidate will bring in the death penalty for persons of his or her constituents' choosing for a small emolument?

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/french/as-sa/ASSA-No13/semiotriangle.jpg

btw

all I've really gotten from this thread is that either we should all wear clothing that doesn't give a fuck about the dimensions of the wearer (togas, saris) or we should all have personal tailors

re: competitive sports -- I live in a city where a minor riot occurred when the home team lost the Super Bowl several years back. There were plenty of things for the people who broke store windows, overturned cars and set one on fire to be up in arms about: economic injustice, racial profiling, police brutality, cuts to the social safety net, the prison industrial complex, etc. But no, it was over a football game. It isn't as if they get any real benefits from the team's success. It isn't as if the teams owners and management, or even most of the players, give the local fans a cut of their huge salaries or anything. The only reason said football team is in the city is because the local government gave the team a bunch of money, that could have been spent on services for the people.

http://www.neurosoftware.ro/programming-blog/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/d62a9_signifier_signified.jpg

also interesting is how clothing is adjusted for ethnic populations - my friend (who's of European descent) bought a dress shirt in Japan that fits perfectly except the cuffs come down to approximately the middle of his forearms

http://www.pep-web.org/document.php?id=ijp.085.1423.fig001.jpg

i wish clothing was sized for my ethnicity bc i am an ape

that is an extreme example, though, sarah, and the false choice in operation is the choice of rioting afterwards, which has nothing to do with the actual sport and everything to do with uncontrollable tribal tension, whipped up by media hype and triggered by the lie which states that defeat is terminal

no! i dont think u understand it right :(

I like Debord and all but I'm still back with the old-school marxists trying to make sure I'm fed and have a roof over my head and don't die from the latest, most 'fashionable' disease. Semiotics is fun, but when you have to wear clothes, sometimes even just to avoid exposure to the elements, I tend to not fret about the vanity sizing and whether they're trying to fuck with me (I assume they are) and just goes with what works for me or what I can make to work.

tbh whatever is on sale is pretty ok

Debord's all style, no substance

yeah u have to ignore it to prevent yourself from going nutz. i have to accept that i cannot wear a burlap sack with holes cut out for my arms to work.

xp dyao: There are definitely brands that cater to African-American women that design pants with more room in back. I should probably suck up the racial awkwardness and get some.

do they make pants designed for ppl of irish extraction people with no butt? i need those

ikr, please research this

bought a dress shirt in Japan that fits perfectly except the cuffs come down to approximately the middle of his forearms

I had some money to blow on a suit once in Japan. I had been modelling there and all the clothes I modelled fit nicely so I was surprised that I could not find one single suit nice or vile that came close to fitting me. I have also noted, of late, that discount or cheap places like Costco, etc., never have my size of underwear - everything is a size too large.

subtract "people" xxp

lol sometimes walking through macy's or places like that when they have a very small section of clothes that will fit people of my size and then a "woman" section of ugly bedazzle clothes for larger ladies that is enormous but if i was a larger lady i would be mad at all the false choices therein. and whytf is it called "woman"?

do i not? :(

the superbowl, as a flagship sporting event, is completely open to accusations of 'false choosing', from its description as a continuous sporting pinnacle (great sport can happen anywhere sport is organised) to the razzmatazz of anointing one team and condemning the other in such definitive terms. you seem to be saying that the sport itself is a false choice; that the creation of a sports team with the ability to reach the superbowl is not in fact a great civic achievement but an empty narcotic for the townsfolk to devour. all i can say is that the creation of sports teams outside of a corporate context generally happened because people from a certain collective urban space wanted to play team sports, and organised themselves accordingly. if both team and stadium subsequently developed, it was merely to keep up with the competition. only at the highest level do teams overreach themselves and sell out to the corporate spectacle.

haha one of the nice things about living in Hong Kong is that all the clothing here fits me - whereas in the US I got dirty looks asking if things came in a "S", and I was too ashamed to go shop in the Boys section

what is the general gist of this competitive sports question, I want to get in on this action

sport is the new opium of the masses, discus

I think this speaks to good old-fashioned capitalism as muc as anything - where our expectations and sense of entitlement run into someone else's business model. We wear perhaps the most disposable clothing and more of it, on average, than any generation in history but it's also comparitively cheap.