Steely Dan: "Steely Dan's name has been popping up as a hip musical crush. Remember, this glossy bop-pop was the indifferent aristocracy to punk rock's stone-throwing in the late 70's. People fought

Absolutely right Gaz. Actually the only people I can remember mentioning SD specifically around the time did so in positive terms - albeit maybe as some sort of guilty secret!

"does stewart O like steely dan i wonder?"

Indeed I do.

"Haha .. actually I think I got in some stupid bitchy argument with Stewart O on that "Talking Heads vs. Steely Dan" thread (he liked TH)."

Actually I was perfectly clear that I like both bands - the point was that you didn't like TH and seemed intent on starting some stupid bitchy argument because you were apparently unable or unwilling to assimilate the possibility that I (anyone?) could possibly like both!

"Anyway, is there anything more tired and poked full-of-holes in 2004 than received punk-rock mythology"

Very true; the problem is that "received mythology" played such a huge part in the development of punk almost from the word go, that it's almost certainly impossible - and quite definitely pointless - to even attempt to separate the two.

In context, Steely Dan represented everything that punk stood against: major lable dinosaur limo-rock made by people who were technicians above feeling musicians.

Again that's pretty much what SD were seen as representing as far I can recall. Let's remember the crucial role that the word "IN CONTEXT" and "REPRESENTED" are playing in that sentence 'though, shall we?

"john lydon was a fan of CAN, NEU!, and CAPTAIN BEEFHEART ... it's not THAT great a leap from those guys to steely dan."

It may not be that great a leap in many respects 'tis true; but in context, in terms of what those different acts represented at that moment in time, you could have been forgiven for believing that there was a vast, yearning chasm between them.

"the worst thing abt it is that it's reduced some of us to actually 'calling sides' in this nonexistent musical-generational war"

Amen.

On the surface, you might think that because of the backup singers. But listen harder - nowadays I hear the Mothers of Invention more than anything.

Should I (or indeed my former English teachers) be pleased about that... or not?

no, honestly.

Don't you know
There's fire in the hole
And nothing left to burn
I'd like to run out now
There's nowhere left to turn

With a cough
I shake it off
And work around my yellow stripe
Should I hide
And eat my pride
Or wait until it's good and ripe
My life is boiling over
It's happened once before
I wish someone would open up the door

Don't you know
There's fire in the hole
And nothing left to burn
I'd like to run out now
There's nowhere left to turn

BLASPHEMY

People who think great craft and good chops are antithetical to "feelings" (too intellectual? not enough from the heat?) hate Steely Dan. But that's just as silly as thinking great craft and good chops are *necessary* for creating great music. You can't make rules about this stuff. Orbit makes them sound like they're Blood, Sweat & Tears, or something.

That may be true; but what seems to me to be far more prevalent is people who hate Steely Dan ascribing the reason for that hatred to a belief that great craft and good chops are antithetical to "feelings"

I will not take anyone seriously who thinks that "Babylon Sisters" is sterile and unfeeling.

orbit do you hate relaxing?

That's interesting. So you think it's a rationalization? Just an "I hate this, what's wrong with it, ah, I know!" kind of thing?

I suspect that's a significant factor - particularly for those for whom SD "represent" something (e.g. "everything that punk stood against" or the sort of music that's listened to by your "smarmy yuppie boss").

Hence I suspect why so many people seem to feel it perfectly reasonable to attack / dismiss SD without feeling the necessity to complicate the basis of their judgment by having actually listened to them first; and consequently why so many other people have been made to feel that liking them somehow represents some sort of betrayal of principles.

I like that they're a fusion of "taste" and "tasteless" -- the boho/lit/jazz leanings wouldn't be nearly as fun if they weren't accompanied by this Curb Your Enthusiasm-like hateful-but-hilarious middle-aged industry dickhead sensibility. I love them even more as they're getting older.

This is exactly it for me, at least with the radio station I listened to growing up. They played the same "hits" over and over and over again and I just learned to cringe every time I heard them, no matter how cool I thought it was that they were named after a sex toy. Although: I did love "Hey Nineteen" when it came out, but I'm still not sure if that was the song itself or my adolescent whatnot reacting to the fabulousness of the Solid Gold dancers uh "interpreting" it every week while it was still on the charts.

Maybe I'll come around to the band some day, but it's going to take a lot of time and possibly some therapy.

Becker: "And it was just a quirk of Donald's and my natures that we thought superimposing jazz harmonies on pop songs was subversive in a much more subtler way. But i guess most people writing songs don't look at it that way.. lucky for us!"

Fagan: "I think people who are sophisticated in the sense that they want to hear some kind of substance in the lyrics are musically going to tend to be primitivists. They have that kind of nostalga de la boue, they are into this purity thing of rock'n'roll; they see it as once being the sort of revolutionary teenage thing and they want to maintain that. I don't know why groups who have some good writers as far as the lyrics go don't get bored playing the same old rock'n'roll stuff..."

That's their starting point. That's before all the musicians came in.

To me SD is nothing if not emotional, at their core. Allegedly "sterile" chops played with precise warmth and lyrics that satirize their intended audience.

My roommate hates 'em too, but she thinks Ryan Adams is a genius and I have to hear "Rock and Roll" every morning so fuck her.

Your roommate, Gear!, could be charged for cruel and unusual punishment.

All night long
We would sing that stupid song
And every word we sang I knew was true.

also, one thing that struck me about reading This Band Could Be Your LIfe was how the whole punk/70s rock "war" was largely bullshit anyway (at least for the bands in that book)...I mean all those kids like 70s/60s/classic rock...Ian MacKaye and Rollins worshipped Nugent, the Minutemen CCR, and Gregg Ginn (and I think one of the Sonic Youth folks too) loved The Grateful Dead.

USA Punx were into Blue Oyster Cult and y'all's know it

"Steely Dan's career started self-indulgently in the 70s, and they outdid themselves in the pretension department with each subsequent album. Do It Again, Reeling In The Years, and Rikki Don't Lose That Number may just be the reason punk was born. Twenty years later, their Two Against Nature reunion won four Grammys, including album of the year, largely because fans were stoked to hear some new Steely, and because the boys delivered an album full of the jazzy, catchy songs they were famous for. On their new Everything Must Go, they sound bored and out of ideas. Fagen hasn't much to say lyrically, and Becker has nothing engaging to play. Where are the funky rhythms and contagious solos that made Steely Dan FM radio staples? Save the $18 and head to the nearest elevator."

Also, I refuse to believe that punk "saved" us from anything other than limited high-$$$ majors-only access to the production, promotion and release of music.