Explain Nas' Illmatic To Me

I didn't buy your argument either tho. Not because I don't think opinions formed over a period of time aren't likely to be more accurate and insightful--they are. But you have to back it up with some concrete detailed examples (which are notably absent from cloverlandthug's posts too).

So Skinner is over now? How quickly the hipsters move on.

Slow day at work today...

(ps there are no grounds on which to argue for a standpoint of "informed subjectivity" -- hell, maybe he listened to too much rap and it made him cynical and burnt out!)

ps there are no grounds on which to argue for a standpoint of "informed subjectivity"

I have no idea what this means.

re: grounds, the point is that there's no basis to argue that "informed" euphoria is any more valid than "uninformed" euphoria. if you want to argue about "quality" then you need other criteria than "my subjectivity is better than yours".

As long as people are still arguing about Illmatic, it holds its place in the quote-unquote canon.

If people start arguing about all the other albums, they might displace it.

Perhaps instead of asking us to defend Illmatic, he needs to better think out his argument against it other than "its just boring."

What exactly do you mean by "objective" criticism? You mean like Explain Why The Album Is Important? Cuz I can do that too. But ultimately the reason I like it is just because I find it more enjoyable than 99% of albums.

I am aware...I'm talking about Sterling. As was OWang.

Ben Williams' rundown is about as good of an 'objective' explanation as Sterling is gonna get:a) The lyrics. He introduced a new level of realism (exaggerated or not) to hip-hop. You already mentioned that a while back. "A feeling like 'he's taking it to what hip-hop was about at the start' except of course he's taking it someplace new" is exactly it.
b) The flow. Really, his rhymes are very tightly coiled. You could strip the beats away and still hear the rhythms.
c) The voice. He projects authority (also, to me, one of the reasons why Rakim was great) and he enunciates very clearly. Every word is hard and direct.
d) Production. It doesn't hurt to have a great setting to shine in. All the "great MCs" have had that, I think.

I respect that Clover thinks that Nas got better with age. I personally don't concur. "Illmatic" was, in my book, Nas' finest moment and if saying that makes me seen like the nostalgia new schooler ala "The Big Chill(in)" so be it. To me, Nas wasn't happy with respect, he wanted to sell more records and "It Was Written" was a calculated attempt at pushing himself towards a crossover audience that resulted in some very bad songs being made, "If I Ruled the World" being a stand-out in my book, though really, it's the production that really fell the fuck off.

As someone who enjoyed listening to Pete Rock, DJ Premier and Large Professor in their prime, "Illmatic" was the best of all possible worlds - once the Trackmasterz took over circa "It was Written", Nas' beats ceased to be that compelling. Their tracks sounded listless and generic - Nas didn't "own" them the way he owned something like "NY State of Mind" or "One Love" (despite the fact that other rappers have used the same Heath Bros. sample as Q-Tip did for "One Love"). I don't remember what "Street Dreams" sounded like and unfortunately, I do remember what "If I ruled the World" sounded like, though I wish I had a memory erase function for that particular song.

This isn't an authenticity issue. Rappers sell out all the time but the better ones do it in style. In my book, Nas doesn't rank with those guys (example: "LIfe After Death" was a calculated, crossover album too but Biggie still pulled some insane hits off that LP - "Hypnotize," "Ten Crack Commandments," "Kick in the Door," "Mo Money, Mo Problems," et. al. Apart from "God's Son", which I thought showed a lot more thought and focus that Nas' previous LPs, he can't really boast of having hit the same balance as Biggie and especially Jay-Z have shown.

this thread has made me think a lot about why i like it so much,so i may as well explain my reasons...

first of all,i really love the production...
this might be a debate for another thread,but i always find it weird when people refer to boring mid nineties premier beats,or whatever...
i mean,obviously hip hop production has moved on,but i don't see how that makes a difference...
the fact that i love mingus doesn't make ellington sound "played out" or whatever...
similarly,timbaland may have moved things on a lot,but i still hear stuff the rza did ten years ago that actually astounds me (recent example (for me)-the strings on that my man is going insane song off only built 4 cuban lynx fucking freaked me out,i was out for a joint before bed and it really sounded amazing,even after listening to a lot of other wu tang)

premier is no different,some his production on illmatic (and the stuff by other producers,whose names i dont know off hand) is amazing,the menacing bassline on new york state of mind,for example

maybe its just cause i live in ireland where hip hop culture is a lot less pervasive and i grew up listening to guitar music and only got into hip hop recently enough,but i dont think so...

i mean,i'm sure there are people who don't think,say,mcs act like they dont know is chunky as fuck,but in general if you're into hip hop i don't see how you can dismiss that type of production out of hand,and there are some excellent examples of it on illmatic...

as for nas himself,i can't figure out why i enjoy listening to him rap so much...i mean,he's not someone whose charisma and wit carries them through,like jay z,or someone who commands attention through sheer vocal presence and character like biggie,although he does have those attributes to a lesser extent...

whatever the technical judgement of it,the first verse of ny state of mind is like two and half minutes of relentless flow,with the bassline weaving around the lyrics,which are themselves tight as fuck...

a lot of people describe nas as humourless,which puzzles me...i mean,there is a lot of the kind of "street poet" posing on the album,granted,but at times he seems to me to be half poking fun at the bravvado in rap,or at least knowingly going along with it with tongue partially in cheek...the line mentioned in that article above,something like "catch me in the street with my hat turned back/love committing sins and my friends sell crack" always strikes me as at least a little knowing...
and as far as "i'm the baddest" style raps go,
"when i'm chillin' i grab the
buddha,
get my crew to buy beers,
and watch a flick,illin'
and root for the villain"
is fairly damn classic,and there's certainly more character and wit there than a lot of people would have you believe nas is capable of...
its also just a great way to start a track...
there's a rake of great lines like that,they may not look as good on paper,but nas deliver's them exceptionally well,sincere but with a wry smile at the same time,or at least it seems like that to me...

and within the context of a rap culture all about boasting about who is the "baddest"/most dangerous/etcetc,i don't see how you couldn't be
charmed by a line like "they call me nas i'm not your legal type of fella,moet drinking marijuana smoking street dweller"
he just bangs out these lines so effortlessly,i mean i know a lot of it is more "keep it real/street" focused,and some of the really dense,gritty verses are great too,but i think there is a degree of good natured,relaxed attitute to the album too...
maybe i just pick up on that cause i'm so removed from the circumstances,i dunno,but i do know that illmatic is one of the albums that really made me see what hip hop was about and accept it on its own terms...

now, looking at it again, i really see the "street poet" side but just like nas took rap "back" where it never was i think he did it with the notion of "poetry" too coz the lines scan to me like over-rhymed blank verse.

hip-hop is a social thing, a party thing, a crew thing, and nas is this romantic byron dude all alone (maybe the most alone rapper ever?) and rhyming like a romantic loner.

its another one of these puzzlers to me, those outliers that become the "canon".

so another question is how do you feel about nas when you listen to illmatic? do you identify with him, pity him, want to pick him up and cuddle him, want to be his soulmate, fear him, stand in awe?

he makes me feel more alienated from him than perhaps any other rapper, like there's this knee-jerk feeling i have "fine, you don't need me or my respect, you want to go commune with the lyrical plane or whatever, that's cool, do your own thing." like he doesn't talk about any emotions that i can recall having, even. nor do i *know* anybody who has emotions like his.

"I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death."

Did he actually invent that line? It sounds like one of the greatest movie quotes ever.

I like that Nas doesn't need me. I can identify with that. It's power.

But as Robin said, I don't think it's a very dark album. It's just a kid discovering his mic (hohoho). That was my main prob w/ the Hsu essay that revived this thread. I don't think it's that nihilistic, and in hip-hop nihilism is more of a genre convention than a statement anyways. The World Is Yours is just such a great happy hopeful song.

Dark shit.

Boy, "I Can" is a dece song, but it doesn't compare to Illmatic on any level.

Are you really into "positive" rap?

one thing that struck me when i got the album at first which i forgot to mention is how shit the chorus' are...its the only thing i don't like about the album,some of them are really annoying...

AZ's opening verse on Life's A Bitch is still as amazing as when I first heard it. I love AZ!

^

it's a tight, fantastic record that doesn't waste a second of space, unlike most hip hop records that i'm invariably turned off by. the lyrics are great and the delivery is one of the best i've ever heard from the genre.

that's just my 2 pence

Life's A Bitch is indeed one of if not my favorite rap track of all time, I think we can all agree on that. Whether you like the rest is opinion - I think some of it is under-produced and as far as albums go I think Mobb Deep topped it.

sterling clover, explain yourself jackass

Does that guy still post? I actually met him once - he lived (lives?) in Jersey City

the bitchslap was invented for that guy

I think some of it is under-produced

i was going to post 'ban humansuit' but i think we've gotten past that now or something

sterling clover, explain yourself jackass

-- am0n, Tuesday, 24 July 2007 03:13 (9 hours ago) Link

Does that guy still post? I actually met him once - he lived (lives?) in Jersey City

-- Hurting 2, Tuesday, 24 July 2007 03:14 (9 hours ago) Link

this explains so much

illmatic nas sounds almost like he's trying to sound like illmatic nas.

i have no idea what this could possibly even begin to mean.