the jeffrey epstein memorial poll and conspiracy-mongering thread

Let's roll

To quote Antonin Artaud, he was suicided by society, just like Van Gogh.

Mood. pic.twitter.com/9rSn0Kn1KP

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) August 10, 2019

If he’d been allowed to live, he might have revealed that Bill Clinton may have committed sexual misconduct, which would have been truly damaging to the Clinton legacy.

Anyway, I voted for 'other': he's safe and sound, tucked away in a paradisiacal underground mansion, at a stone's throw from the earth's molten core.

No 12 ft lizard option - no credibility

Do I legitimately think he was whacked? Not really, I feel like people powerful enough to kill someone in federal custody could have made it look like a stroke or heart attack or something.

Do I think he definitely could have been whacked? Absolutely. Is it worth playing with to further highlight that he was bros with 50% of the last 4 Presidents and a ton of rich assholes. Also absolutely.

If he’d been allowed to live, he might have revealed that Bill Clinton may have committed sexual misconduct, which would have been truly damaging to the Clinton legacy.

I'm not one of those The Clintons Did It ppl but I hope we can all understand that what's alleged to have taken place on Epstein's place and elsewhere goes well beyond what Bill's been previously accused of

I think it's likely there was some intervention in his death.

Not only Clinton would've potentially been implicated in child trafficking,sex slavery and rape but also Dershowitz,Ehud Barak, Prince Andrew, and various influential figures in finance,business etc.

You know those murder mysteries where, as you read the first 40 pages, you discover that the corpse was at first thought to have committed suicide, but the circumstances arouse the suspicion of the canny detective (who is the hero of the book) and, upon investigation, the hero quickly finds at least a dozen people who had strong motives to murder the victim and all of them express open delight or relief in the victim's death? Yeah, this is kinda like that, am I right?

Epstein and Pac, jammin’ in Samoa.

one for the "grain of salt" files

https://nypost.com/2019/08/10/former-mcc-inmate-theres-no-way-jeffrey-epstein-killed-himself/

^ Premise of that article is that Epstein would not have been able to hang himself, stab himself, or bludgeon himself in that unit. It says nothing about, oh, let's say an overdose of fentanyl obtained from a guard for a small cash consideration.

Voted "other" — dude absolutely faked his suicide and was whisked to freedom.

Lol dudez

He hanged himself xp

as a supporter of the ‘what if his head just... did that’ explanation of jfk’s death, i believe we should give serious credence to the thought that epstein’s neck just... did that

People have spontaneous neck implosions every year, they’re just not widely reported

Of course...

Died of SUICIDE on 24/7 SUICIDE WATCH ? Yeah right! How does that happen#JefferyEpstein had information on Bill Clinton & now he’s dead

I see #TrumpBodyCount trending but we know who did this!

RT if you’re not Surprised#EpsteinSuicide #ClintonBodyCount #ClintonCrimeFamily pic.twitter.com/Y9tGAWaAxX

— Terrence K. Williams (@w_terrence) August 10, 2019

^^Retweeted by Yam.

I guess he's....not surprised

He also retweeted a post about Clinton's trips to the island.

I said this on the main politics thread, but his frothing desire to see the Clintons get theirs by any means possible, even if it means spotlighting a case he's been named in repeatedly, really highlights just how special his brain is

went with "(other)" because i feel like automatic "no way, no conspiracy, nothing to see here folks, move on pls!" talk is just as irresponsible, in its way, as "CLINTON BODY COUNT STRIKES AGAIN" shit.

i think epstein committed suicide and the fact that he wasn't being adequately monitored was due to gross negligence and not conspiracy

^^^^

if it were just about anyone else I'd definitely agree with you

either killed or "other"

I'm somewhere between 'gross negligence' and 'allowed/encouraged' to do it '

Died of SUICIDE on 24/7 SUICIDE WATCH ?

I notice posts that repeatedly say Epstein was on suicide watch and others that repeatedly say he was taken off suicide watch. That covers all the bases, I guess.

Negligence or guards just not giving a fuck. As I said on the other thread, some of the most infamous murderers in UK history, who you would expect would be watched extra carefully, have hung themselves in their cells.

I notice posts that repeatedly say Epstein was on suicide watch and others that repeatedly say he was taken off suicide watch. That covers all the bases, I guess.

the latter is the case apparently, why he was taken off is an open question

Yeah - he was on suicide watch w/accompanying psychiatric interviews & whatnot for a while, they decided he wasn’t suicidal, and six days later he killed himself. Ppl framing it like “they conveniently gave him the means to kill himself” like he’s Frank Pentangeli from The Godfather I guess can’t conceive of a committed suicidal person biding their time, keeping up appearances, and not raising any red flags until they’re sure they can get away with it.

It’s an “open question” only as much as you believe that mental health diagnosis and treatment in our nations esteemed prison system is foolproof, which if you do, that must be a nice way to live.

I...do not think that. I just think the particular circumstances (both how high-profile the case is and how suicide-proofed the facility is meant to be, still waiting for a contradictory take on the MCC) are sus

"Don't worry about anything, Jeffrey Epstein."
"Thanks, Alan--thanks."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U89DzP8NGM4

conspiracy doesn't apply here

it's thunderingly obvious what essentially happened

Hillary used her ninja training to sneak into his cell and defeat him?

i'm sure at a minimum JE was advised that "a Whitey Bulger" awaited him

Whitey Bulger lasted a lot longer.

u guys do recall that Trump and the Clintons were pals for a couple decades, right?

Welp

assuming that d’angelo barksdale clip will get some mileage

Died of SUICIDE on 24/7 SUICIDE WATCH ?

I notice posts that repeatedly say Epstein was on suicide watch and others that repeatedly say he was taken off suicide watch. That covers all the bases, I guess.

yeah, it's hard to watch. hasn't it been confirmed that he was recently taken off of suicide watch? i for one cannot believe trump wouldn't factcheck the people he retweets

lol

have you seen photos of the body? it’s obviously not him. my guess is, epstein’s on a private plane to somewhere in the middle east getting prepped for plastic surgery right now #EpsteinBodyDouble

— Foster The People (@fosterthepeople) August 11, 2019

Pumped Up Epps

who killed j epstein?

http://powet.tv/powetblog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/robert_hegyes_as_juan_epstein_in_welcome_back_kotter.jpg

I knew this storyline felt like a retread

Remember when the Panama Papers revealed global level finance crimes and the only thing that happened was that the journalist who released them got killed?

— Joe Biden retire, bitch (@YourFriendCrud) August 10, 2019

who even remembers at this point that the paradise papers followed that, to even less impact

this twitter thread seemed pretty enlightening re: suicide watch, and what that means in practice

Incoming thread.

Content warning: discussion of suicidal ideation and suicide watch protocol.

Today is an emotionally tough day. Bowing out is fine. Being furious is 100% reasonable.

Warning.

— CZEdwards (@CZEdwards) August 10, 2019

excellent read soref thks

Indeed, thanks soref.

I'm not fully up on the details, but I don't see how Epstein even countenances suicide BEFORE a trial. He'd have a reasonable expectation he could beat the case surely. After a conviction, well. thats a different story

People being murdered in prison is hardly an unusual occurrence

No one ever thought this guy was going to make trial

He'd have a reasonable expectation he could beat the case surely.

I'm sure he had a reasonable expectation he was going to get bail, when he didn't get it maybe the sky finally fell in. Tbh I don't want to spend another minute thinking about his POS and am dissappointed at myself for commenting itt.

u guys do recall that Trump and the Clintons were pals for a couple decades, right?

Hillary didn't lose the "election"; she lost the coin toss backstage, overseen by the lizard people who secretly guide all world events. Then she just had to "make it look good" and vanish off the public stage once her role in the Grand Design was complete. Do I have that right, Morbs?

People being murdered in prison is hardly an unusual occurrence

Don't have stats to hand but people killing themselves in prison is far less unusual.

I really don’t get the impulse to pooh-pooh people for having conspiracy theories about this when the person in question here was being prosecuted for participating in A MASSIVE CONSPIRACY

Epstein may or may not have been whacked but how can you blame people for thinking he was?

If you want this downplayed because you think it will give ammunition to the right, well, whose fault is that? The Clintons willingly chose to associate (extensively) with this guy. A staggering amount of famous liberals did, even AFTER he had been charged the first time.

People believe in conspiracy theories about the wealthy and powerful being depraved monsters who can get away with anything because they are constantly being given good reason to believe it.

And if you dismiss their concerns about it, they’ll happily fall under the sway of something like Qanon

Don't have stats to hand but people killing themselves in prison is far less unusual.

Right, exactly! I don't think anyone here is going to dispute that people die regularly in prison, both by their own hand and by the hands of others. It is far from outlandish to suggest the people are murdered in prison, and that certain people are potentially more at risk of this happening to them.

After trial, I'd take a sucide explanation all day long. Before? I can't see it

there's a pretty blinkered anti-conspiracy strain of thought that resembles Richard Dawkins' dogmatic brand of atheism...more abt intellectual arrogance than anything else

one thing for sure about this guy, he killed himself or he didn't

I mean either way there are enough complexities (psychological or conspiratorial) to make me wonder how some rando on twitter (or ILX) can be all "NO!" about it

OTM

The 3rd option that I've seen people claim is that the body isn't estrone st all. Photos show the substitute is clearly different to the living Epstein so he's been spirited away somewhere comfortable.
Which really is a conspiracy theory.
Like.
But is one I've seen circulating.

one thing for sure about this guy, he killed himself or he didn't

(xp) It might be intellectually arrogant of me to comment, so I'll pass on that one.

xp tool + rube

^using it

another victory for fat-thumbed typing

Anyway, this is all American stuff, who cares about the Clintons, Prince Andrew being outed as a paedo will suit me fine.

honestly I think Clintons are behind my sciatica

could be some royals too though

I'm not fully up on the details, but I don't see how Epstein even countenances suicide BEFORE a trial. He'd have a reasonable expectation he could beat the case surely.

Again, I don’t really track why people are so quick to attribute any level of rational thinking to the insane pedophile sex slaver who built an impregnation ranch

was he insane?

he pretty rationally figured he could get away with this, it went on for a very long time

The twitter thread soref posted really says it all

I corrected a predictive text back to epstein on the previous comment. I thought it had become a recognised option for the phone then it posted wrong again.
But there is a conspiracy theory circulating that e body isn't epstein at all.
Which is another way of seeing things.
Gone back to his lizard friends?

omg, insane Twitter liberals actually *are* theorizing Putin did it. And Perrin just thought he was joking.

Perrin would know

Xp I mean obviously hats a flip word to use but I think most would agree that an overview of his life & work would revea some glaring flaws in his decisionmaking skills

I guess but only if you share his moral code, like he was entirely right that ppl would be down with his plan

starting an impregnation ranch is less bonkers when seen as an elaborate cover for sex island, getting a sort of free pass as an eccentric or horny Dr. Moreau

we've all had to stan for embarrassing cover story fantasies when trying to get pet projects approved tbf

Boris Johnson to thread

omg, insane Twitter liberals actually *are* theorizing Putin did it. And Perrin just thought he was joking.

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius)

this is no more insane than thinking the Clintons ordered it

possibly so

no one has to "order it."

it's What Needs to Be Done.

Epstein had plenty of agency himself to decide to take his own life to protect his rich buddies.

Anyway, this is all American stuff, who cares about the Clintons, Prince Andrew being outed as a paedo will suit me fine.

― Euripedes' Trousers (Tom D.), Sunday, August 11, 2019 1:05 PM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Prince Andrew's a WHAT?!
Thought he was just a gun-runner, or was that Mark Thatcher?

wd his loyalty extend that far? xp

well he had plenty of other reasons to kill himself, such as "no future" and "complete and utter humiliation"

I didn't realize we were doing specifics! I'd like to restate in that case. I think is likely he was murdered but I have no idea who by

Somehow both my mom and my brother are pretty sure it was auto-erotic asphyxiation from sex addiction.

effrey Epstein, the financier who hanged himself in a federal jail in Manhattan, was supposed to have been checked by guards every 30 minutes, but that procedure was not being followed the night before he was found, a law-enforcement official with knowledge of his detention said.

In addition, the jail had transferred his cellmate and allowed Mr. Epstein to be housed alone in a cell just two weeks after he had been taken off suicide watch, a decision that also violated the jail’s normal procedure, two officials said.

I really don’t get the impulse to pooh-pooh people for having conspiracy theories about this when the person in question here was being prosecuted for participating in A MASSIVE CONSPIRACY

Epstein may or may not have been whacked but how can you blame people for thinking he was?

If you want this downplayed because you think it will give ammunition to the right, well, whose fault is that? The Clintons willingly chose to associate (extensively) with this guy. A staggering amount of famous liberals did, even AFTER he had been charged the first time.

People believe in conspiracy theories about the wealthy and powerful being depraved monsters who can get away with anything because they are constantly being given good reason to believe it.

And if you dismiss their concerns about it, they’ll happily fall under the sway of something like Qanon

it's wild that AG Barr gets to chime in on this case without a hundred people screaming at him abt his family ties

I just think people who say Epstein was murdered are talking out their asses and I feel it’s my duty to call them out on it if not shame them for it. What’s the big deal

gotta bring a sledgehammer to that echo chamber that amplifies any half-baked titillating suspicion that pops into people’s heads

I have the distinct impression that the reflexive "he killed himself obv" people are the ones who know less, not more, about the case

frankly whether he killed himself or he was offed is not very interesting to me because if it's the latter it's not like that is going to get cracked and solved. I"m more interested in seeing where this investigation into Maxwell and his other employees goes.

Simon if you know some details I don’t that indicate he was murdered feel free to share them!

Just read the Miami herald story

And if you dismiss their concerns about it, they’ll happily fall under the sway of something like Qanon

really?

this I assume is the specific Miami Herald piece fb is thinking of

Facing a 53-page federal indictment, Epstein could have ended up in federal prison for the rest of his life.

But on the morning of the breakfast meeting, a deal was struck — an extraordinary plea agreement that would conceal the full extent of Epstein’s crimes and the number of people involved.

Not only would Epstein serve just 13 months in the county jail, but the deal — called a non-prosecution agreement — essentially shut down an ongoing FBI probe into whether there were more victims and other powerful people who took part in Epstein’s sex crimes, according to a Miami Herald examination of thousands of emails, court documents and FBI records.

The pact required Epstein to plead guilty to two prostitution charges in state court. Epstein and four of his accomplices named in the agreement received immunity from all federal criminal charges. But even more unusual, the deal included wording that granted immunity to “any potential co-conspirators’’ who were also involved in Epstein’s crimes. These accomplices or participants were not identified in the agreement, leaving it open to interpretation whether it possibly referred to other influential people who were having sex with underage girls at Epstein’s various homes or on his plane.

As part of the arrangement, Acosta agreed, despite a federal law to the contrary, that the deal would be kept from the victims. As a result, the non-prosecution agreement was sealed until after it was approved by the judge, thereby averting any chance that the girls — or anyone else — might show up in court and try to derail it.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html

tho tbh revisiting this piece now it seems like a "tip of the iceberg" type deal, no mention of Mossad, Donald Barr, his mysterious/possibly nonexistent "hedge fund" etc

A friend has the best reasoning why it wasn't suicide- "He was a rich white man and thus he had staff and didn’t lift a finger unless it was to penetrate a 14 year old’s vagina."
She gets kicked off of fb a lot.

Are there any theories abt why the all-powerful global bilderberg elite decided not to slip him one of the many discreet, barely-detectable drugs known to be used by spy agencies around the world which can induce heart attack & suffocation virtually indistinguishable from a 'natural' death? As opposed to a faked suicide by hanging, which would obviously involve strong ppl, violence, forcible restraint, cajoling the silence of who knows how many guards & inmates, etc?

He probably wasn't murdered per se, but I don't think it's at all inconcievable that a certain amount of coercion and blind eye turning was involved.

there's a pretty blinkered anti-conspiracy strain of thought that resembles Richard Dawkins' dogmatic brand of atheism...more abt intellectual arrogance than anything else

― The Ravishing of ROFL Stein (Hadrian VIII), Sunday, August 11, 2019 12:33 PM (four hours ago)

yeah, this is otm

again, the extremely detailed & informative twitter thread posted by soref explains so much & really seems like the last word on this, I cant believe this thread has outlasted that post

He probably wasn't murdered per se, but I don't think it's at all inconcievable that a certain amount of coercion and blind eye turning was involved.

And if you dismiss their concerns about it, they’ll happily fall under the sway of something like Qanon

really?

― american bradass (BradNelson), Sunday, August 11, 2019 4:40 PM (fifty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yes, really. It’s no secret that a lot of people get sucked into the right through conspiracy theories. And yes, most of these theories are patently absurd, but many of them are seductive because they have some sort of connection to reality, no matter how skewed. Look at how long conspiracy theorists have dined out on Cointelpro and MK Ultra (both historically real and destructive secret programs), for example. And fuck, we just learned a few years ago that the NSA spies on everybody. Why would you trust anyone who tells you there’s nothing to worry about?

So when something like the Epstein case comes along that involves so many nodes of real-world power, and the man at the center of it turns up dead...welp.

Epstein’s death is inherently charged by the very nature of the crimes he was accused of and the circles he operated in. It does not mean he was murdered but scoffing at people who think it’s a little fishy seems to me a misguided and frankly rather patronizing impulse.

Prince Andrew and his mother being chauffeured to church this morning. pic.twitter.com/GshGJbEPBx

— Garbage 🦍 (@GarbageApe) August 11, 2019

lock thread

LOL

which one is Andrew

Come on now, who among us hasnt ever been that excited for a nice long day of church tbh

Basically anyone running with some Infowars type theory here, without any evidence, has lost all credibility to me. not that u care but fuk u anyway

conspiracy theories are funny and I understand why people get seduced by them. However I don’t have any respect for people who are seduced by them and I fail to see why I should make the effort to invent respect for them.

If you wanna compare me to Richard Dawkins then LOL u mad

It does not mean he was murdered but scoffing at people who think it’s a little fishy seems to me a misguided and frankly rather patronizing impulse.

― Conceptualize Wyverns (latebloomer), Sunday, August 11, 2019 10:37 AM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

*i* think it's a little fishy! awfully convenient! i still don't understand how my scoffing is gonna make people think q is real

we need to let people believe shit that is 90% insane or else they’ll start believing shit that is 100% insane

Awaiting the Ghislaine extradition order/search warrants.

Curious whether there are any binational compacts between the US and UK that would get UK law enforcement involved.

astrology > conspiracy theories

maybe put "fascination with true crime" in between astrology and conspiracy theories there, imo my generation sucks

h8 true crime

can't believe there are so many idiots who think there's something suspicious about the convenient death of a guy who had dirt on a lot of powerful ppl, that's like thinking that the US would go to war using fake evidence or something

we need to let people believe shit that is 90% insane or else they’ll start believing shit that is 100% insane

― Vape Store (crüt), Sunday, 11 August 2019 18:03 (one minute ago) link

Well, you’re framing it in terms of “let” which is the fucking problem in a nutshell.

peeps be thinkin life is a Jason Bourne movie

Well, you’re framing it in terms of “let” which is the fucking problem in a nutshell.

― Conceptualize Wyverns (latebloomer), Sunday, August 11, 2019 11:09 AM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

... are people who believe in conspiracy theories really this persecuted

President Keyes, if someone had "theorized" a conspiracy that involved child sex trafficking on a remote island involving a cabal of pols and captains of industry...would that person have lost your respect?

I don't get it...I mean conspiracies exist, people are convicted of conspiring all the time. Theories abt conspiracies range from the unfounded and absurd (pizzagate) to the likely (dark money, name your lobby).

A banket dismissal of "conspiracy theories" is meaningless.

(if I had to guess I'd say Epstein killed himself, but nobody itt has any idea, and teah, ppl have been offed in prison for much less)

it's just completely exasperating to me.

this particularly conspiracy theory i think is highly credible but it still doesn't produce much thought beyond "huh maybe that happened" which is i assume why we're talking about how people who believe in conspiracy theories being clowned on is like richard dawkins being an islamophobe or whatever

crutis do you think he killed himself bcz he was sad or bcz he was encouraged to do so

Lonely guy just thinking baout long term imprisonment as a procurer of underage girls

https://thehardtimes.net/culture/conspiracy-podcast-suggests-link-between-epstein-death-and-lack-of-comfortable-casper-mattress-in-cell/

conspiracies exist, people are convicted of conspiring all the time.

I agree that criminal conspiracies are fairly common, in that the only requirement for a conspiracy is that two people agree together to knowingly break a law and then act upon that agreement. But convictions for conspiracy are rare, if only because prosecutors hate to bring 'conspiracy' charges, as opposed to criminal charges based solely on actions taken, rather than considering the prior agreement to act as a separate charge, thus muddying their case and making it needlessly complex.

do you think he killed himself bcz he was sad or bcz he was encouraged to do so

I recommend reading the Twitter thread soref linked to upthread.

lol tom

I think there are a number of reasons epstein would have killed himself. just thinking baout things probably less likely than wanting to take his fate into his own hands. the twitter thread soref posted makes sense to me, ymmv

xps

Lonely guy just thinking baout long term imprisonment as a procurer of underage girls

I read the thread last night, was just curious abt crut’s thoughts 💭

good lord you shouldn't be though

if you like old Robert Stack-hosted episodes of Unsolved Mysteries does it mean you like true crime y/n

i did like unsolved mysteries as a kid. great theme tune.

there's a pretty blinkered anti-conspiracy strain of thought that resembles Richard Dawkins' dogmatic brand of atheism...more abt intellectual arrogance than anything else

― The Ravishing of ROFL Stein (Hadrian VIII), Sunday, August 11, 2019 12:33 PM (four hours ago)

yeah, this is otm

great thread!!

The problem ultimately is the term “conspiracy theory” itself, which is a pernicious umbrella that lumps together disparate real and imagined events. With this term, speculation about a guy (maybe!) being offed in jail is implicitly put on the same level of plausibility as Kubrick faking the Moon Landing or whatever.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/16/books/review/kate-tuttle-true-crime-women.amp.html

xxp wtf is your problem?

I've said I have absolutely no idea, repeatedly.

(I think it's probably suicide. I don't get the vehemence on either side of this.)

latebloomer otm

not the best essay but whatever I’ll flounce now

The problem ultimately is the term “conspiracy theory” itself, which is a pernicious umbrella that lumps together disparate real and imagined events. With this term, speculation about a guy (maybe!) being offed in jail is implicitly put on the same level of plausibility as Kubrick faking the Moon Landing or whatever.

i agree that not all conspiracy theories are equal, and obviously there's an actual conspiracy at the heart of the epstein stuff, but that doesn't mean the claims he was murdered don't deserve scrutiny

xp sorry I usually skip over your posts

lol not you flappy

peeps be thinkin life is a Jason Bourne movie

This Robert Maxwell biography is still in print after 17 years, and is rising the microgenre sales lists. I don't think it's irrelevant to the Epstein case.

Given that both murder and suicide are plausible here I'm surprised at the strength of feeling

Yeah many XP’s here but I feel like if you bond yourself to bullshit theories you will forever be not credible

For the record, I think it was probably suicide. I just don’t think it’s crazy to suspect that it wasn’t.

Like in the months after 9/11 I went to a Howard Zinn lecture and he refused to dismiss the idea that Israel was behind the attacks. At that point he lost my respect and could never earn it back.

It’s fine. If there’s credible info I will listen bye knee jerk conspiracy can fuck off imo

fair enough I guess!

tbf re: Zinn, old leftists are sadly prone to Anti-Semitic Crank disease

We're living in an era in which Israel has supported Al-Qaeda affiliated militia's in Syria's civil conflict, American think-tank conservatives have hailed Jabhat al-Nusra, and American airpower has supported them. I don't think there's any evidence Isreal played a role in Al-Qaeda circa 2001, but Israel is a state that follows its own foreign policy which is at best orthogonal to America's long term interests.

As soon as the M-word crops up conspiracy-tinged conversations I tend to make my excuses and leave.

Yes man I agree without you on everything. However I also believe that every bullshit theory needs to be dismissed, especially by those who are famous/in power

It’s hard to believe there are people here who disagree but whatever

Nice of Keyes to drop in and explain his superiority to us peons.

Ppl tryna have it both ways, shrugging their shoulders like “I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy but murder, suicide, who can say, both are equally plausible”, forgetting the fat that there is no evidence supporting murder (or murder-adjacent conspiracy theories) and actual evidence supporting suicide

Yeah basically

Do you guy really excuse conspiracy fucks if they are on your side?

I read the thread last night, was just curious abt crut’s thoughts 💭

― quelle sprocket damage (sic), Monday, August 12, 2019 4:48 AM (one hour ago)

good lord you shouldn't be though

― Vape Store (crüt), Monday, August 12, 2019 4:49 AM (one hour ago)

do u think Maxwell was suicide or nah though

Ppl tryna have it both ways, shrugging their shoulders like “I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy but murder, suicide, who can say, both are equally plausible”, forgetting the fat that there is no evidence supporting murder (or murder-adjacent conspiracy theories) and actual evidence supporting suicide

Technically speaking, not a single person here has access to evidence either way.

Do you guy really excuse conspiracy fucks if they are on your side?

What's the conspiracy?

Right-wing and left-wing 'conspiracies' mirror their broader political ideologies - right-wing conspiracies overwhelmingly assume the existence of an alien body undermining good decent American society. Left-wing conspiracies mirror the left's reading of the role of power and wealth in America. (COINTELPRO was real. The pigs killed Fred Hampton. The CIA actively worked with Nazis during the Cold War and trafficked drugs. yada yada yada)

If you can't grasp a difference in these mindsets, that's your problem.

I think if you can determine between proven government conspiracies that have been proven by decades of info and jumping onto some new death to tie it to Hillary or etc. then yeah there is something wrong with your brain

- Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Sunday, 11 August 2019 bookmarkflaglink

🤔

I was about to say, maybe he knows more than he lets on

cool that we can talk about what rly went down in like 45 years time lol

tie it to Hillary

Man, you are a dipshit.

Has anyone ever figured out how Epstein amassed a high 9-digit fortune while trading his own account? Hedge fund billionaires skimming 20% of profits off other people's money is a lot easier. Ghislaine Maxwell, post bankruptcy collapse of dad's business empire, is another character with no visible means of support.

Les Wexler claims that Epstein stole low 9-digits from him, doesn't he?

So, ultimately, Epstein's sex predation was funded by Victoria's Secret consumers. Always thought there was something sinister about the word PINK on asses.

You got me
I’m dying dog

Keyes yr the only person itt who is knee-jerk

Ok cool so there hasn’t been a whole weekend of conspiracy stud it’s just me ok

Stuff

I'm the conspiracy stud around here.

Yes, there are people talking about conspiracies. You immediately leap to lumping the word in with "Hillary personally led the Benghazi attack" nuts, which is why you're a dipshit.

the stud is dan bidondi irrc

Simma simma bros

Whatever I’m obviously a nobody publicizing my views
Just treat me like morons posting Perrin tweets if you can’t abide

Lol I meant morbs but autocorrect hmm

there really hasn't been anyone on this thread claiming with any conviction that any particular conspiracy is true. Saying he may have been murdered or received a push or assistance in killing himself is pretty mild speculation.

Devils' advocate: another anonymous source w/ knowledge of the prison, this time claiming guards were on heavy forced OT

https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article233762702.html

Fits with my indifference/routinely shitty systems theory

Btw I’m not just talking about people on this thread but the entirely of left Twitter which spent this weekend in some q anon bs

Not just left twitter!

Might be the people you follow...

I mean you can do that all you want as long as long as there’s one lonely person on a message board calling you a dipshit

I have the same reaction whenever anyone complains about this or that Twitter meltdown: I savor the little bubble I've cultivated and the joys of the mute list.

there really hasn't been anyone on this thread claiming with any conviction that any particular conspiracy is true. Saying he may have been murdered or received a push or assistance in killing himself is pretty mild speculation.

― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Sunday, August 11, 2019 5:27 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah the indignation around this is kind of hilarious, nobody in here srsly has any dog in this fight

many xps brimstead I'm really not sure what the sore spot is here but I never had you sussed out as such a prick before, thx for the heads up

Think it was probably murder, but it's not insane to think it might not have been

^^

That's where I'm at.

Who murdered him?

Give me some evidence you shitbirds

lol i'm fuckin culombo now hey

columbo

spoiled the riposte, but stumbled on a decent multilingual pun there

Right-wing and left-wing 'conspiracies' mirror their broader political ideologies - right-wing conspiracies overwhelmingly assume the existence of an alien body undermining good decent American society. Left-wing conspiracies mirror the left's reading of the role of power and wealth in America. (COINTELPRO was real. The pigs killed Fred Hampton. The CIA actively worked with Nazis during the Cold War and trafficked drugs. yada yada yada)

IE the left-wing conspiracies identify the alien body as the FBI - which the right-wing conspiracies now agree with.

the difference being that left-wing conspiracists don't see such forces as "alien" whatsoever

(well, one difference, anyway)

I think you are crediting a lot of people with more nuance than they're showing.

again, the extremely detailed & informative twitter thread posted by soref explains so much & really seems like the last word on this, I cant believe this thread has outlasted that post

Again, the extremely detailed & informative tweet by foster the people explains so much & really seems like the last word on this, I cant believe this thread has outlasted that post

Yeah. Hearty lol that the angry anti-conspiracists seem to think some rando's twitter thread should be the final word on this. I think it was suicide as well, but I really don't get the anger.

I really appreciated learning all the details of why suicide watch doesn’t last long and how it works. I have to think we’ll find out more about this case soon (cameras? etc.).

It was a good thread. As these things goes. But it's not exactly media literate to read some tweets and then shout at people for not agreeing.

Dont feel like I'm angrily shouting at people itt? But w/e. The twitter thread (by a writer informed in that field) goes into great detail about how suicide watch works in in-patient facilities, something that many ppl itt obviously didnt know about before posting stuff like "the fact that he wasnt on 24/7 watch is telling evidence that someone wanted him dead" or "hm he was taken off suicide watch and then coincidentally killed himself? v sus, obvious intentionality at play behind his death", which is the essential logic behind a great majority of the conspiracy-friendly posts itt. If you think it's "not exactly media literate" to not give equal weight to the foster the people dude then w/e, i dunno what to tell you.

Like literally that thread contains the key information that many posters are referring to when they say "I'm not saying its a conspiracy but there certainly are a lot of strange unanswered questions about what happened"

Yes, that suicide watch tweet was interesting and, immediately after it, I read this on wiki:

The initially strict suicide watch having been relaxed,[163] on 1 January 1995 Fred West asphyxiated himself[164] in his cell by wrapping an improvised rope he had constructed from a blanket and tags he had stolen from prison laundry bags[165] around his neck, then binding this device to a door handle and window catchment, and sinking to his knees.[165]

sad that you would trust wikipedia on that when the foster the people dude hasnt yet weighed in, smdh

idk all the angry ppl itt seem to be on the conspiracy side imo

anyway seeing as this is an ilx memorial thread i think we should all only share personal memories of how we engaged with the subjects work

I'm not angry for the record. I am calm and posting as I normally do

Had the pleasure of meeting Jeffrey Epstein at a charity do once. He was surprisingly down to earth, and VERY funny.

(with apologies to Limmy)

I think it’s messed up that a federal holding jail has both a horrible rep for conditions and they would be less than cautious when taking someone off suicide watch

on one hand, epstein could have been a high value person to prosecute due to the number of people he could incriminate on the stand, or the context he could provide to all the creepy shit at his houses/island. on the other hand, he’s jailed in a place with overworked staff who only see him as an exploiter and they’re disincentivized to give a shit about a rich man who did horrible things.

it’s down to whether institutional or intentional negligence let him off himself. or, who knows, they let one of his fellow inmates in his cell during social hour for questionable reasons?

I hope both truthers and deniers can both enjoy a hearty lol @ this

Michael Baden, huh? pic.twitter.com/svMT0TGSfY

— TrueAnon Pod (@TrueAnonPod) August 11, 2019

It's all cool

certainly seems to be the case now that this jail was a fucked up mess of administrative shittiness which is probably true for every fucking jail and prison in america

Xxp That’s hysterical. Feel like that c.v. could make for a good erroll morris movie

Wonder if anyone tried anything with Chapo all the time he was being held in the same cell block.

I totally believe Epstein took his own life, considering the crimes he's charged with and having been abandoned by his powerful friends on both sides, with basically no chance at this point that any one of them would step forward to give him an assist, and with the prospect of being paraded out for a lengthy and humiliating trial...it makes sense. Aaron Hernandez had just been acquitted of a double homicide and was iirc in the process of working towards an appeal of his first homicide conviction, and he killed himself. OJ was *perhaps* on the cusp of killing himself when he thought it was curtains for him, didn't follow through, and wound up getting away with it and seems to have not really had other suicidal inclinations since then. i don't know, very different examples i guess. but similar in some ways. A lifetime spent in prison or just the probability of it, let alone one's reputation being permanently destroyed, or simply losing everything, all of that does things to people. i also imagine he had been living a psychologically fraught existence ever since he began to realize he might wind up actually paying for it after getting away with it for so long.

Feel like that c.v. could make for a good erroll morris movie

Mr. Death II: This Time It's Impersonal

on one hand, epstein could have been a high value person to prosecute

gross, dude

he wasn't in an inpatient facility, he was in jail

Well.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/11/theres-no-video-of-jeffrey-epsteins-apparent-suicide-sources/

“Something doesn’t smell right – and it’s not his dead body,” Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams said.

interesting moment to try out yr tight five

corpsed

u guys sure know how to spend a Sunday

beats church.

when u point a finger at the guys in a thraed, four fingers are pointing back at u

applies only to Hound Dog Taylor iirc

again, are there normally cameras in the cells? doesn't sound like it. surprise, jails are all fucked up

I'm willing to give Epstein enough of a superiority complex that when he saw no logical way out, especially after Friday's document dump of names, he exercised the "they'll never take me alive" option. I'm also willing to give the guards/BOP enough built-up disdain for this worthless piece of shit that the faster he's out of the system the better.

Admittedly this is a variation of my JFK assassination theory where Lee Harvey Oswald does in fact go to Mexico City, tells everyone there that he's going to kill the president, only to be met with shrugs from the station chiefs ("angry dude outside says he's going to kill the president - do you care? hell, no. i don't care. my job will be better without him anyway")

Cosigning the above.

let it be noted the system is gross, to me all criminals prosecuted by the rules

Dont feel like I'm angrily shouting at people itt? But w/e. The twitter thread (by a writer informed in that field) goes into great detail about how suicide watch works in in-patient facilities, something that many ppl itt obviously didnt know about before posting stuff like "the fact that he wasnt on 24/7 watch is telling evidence that someone wanted him dead" or "hm he was taken off suicide watch and then coincidentally killed himself? v sus, obvious intentionality at play behind his death", which is the essential logic behind a great majority of the conspiracy-friendly posts itt. If you think it's "not exactly media literate" to not give equal weight to the foster the people dude then w/e, i dunno what to tell you.

― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), 12. august 2019 01:16 (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Like literally that thread contains the key information that many posters are referring to when they say "I'm not saying its a conspiracy but there certainly are a lot of strange unanswered questions about what happened"

― “Hakuna Matata,” a nihilist philosophy (One Eye Open), 12. august 2019 01:22 (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

The twitter account isn't even verified, you honestly don't know at all who made it. I also assume it's all legit, but none of us knows. That's what I'm saying wrt literacy. Defeating conspiracies means finding information from trust-worthy sources (and making notice when sources turn out to be not trustworthy at all) not looking at a twitter thread that seems to know what it says, and then being mad at other people.

Lol yes it’s true, she is not even verified, thx for the media literacy lesson

where's Verrit when you need them?

Attorney General Bill Barr on the suicide of accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein: "Let me assure you that this case will continue on against anyone who was complicit with Epstein. Any co-conspirators should not rest easy" https://t.co/O0OFAg3xyj pic.twitter.com/nZLWpjMhGF

— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics) August 12, 2019

the old standard or the 2019 standard

sad lol

One more wrinkle that I don't recall seeing before

In addition, because Mr. Epstein may have tried to commit suicide three weeks earlier, he was supposed to have had another inmate in his cell, three officials said. But the jail had recently transferred his cellmate and allowed Mr. Epstein to be housed alone, a decision that also violated the jail’s procedures, the two officials said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/11/nyregion/epstein-death-manhattan-correctional-center.html

yeah I’d heard that - wouldn’t be the first time jail employees didn’t follow procedure, esp for a high profile prisoner

But Mr. Young said he was certain that Mr. Epstein was in the cell alone — and nearly certain Mr. Epstein had a cellmate after he was removed from suicide watch.

“I can tell you it is unequivocal that he was in a cell by himself,” Mr. Young said. “I can tell you Epstein didn’t have anyone in the room with him when he committed suicide.”

guys, do we have a missing cellmate?

where is that italian quadruple murder ex-cop guy

shocking news

Justice officials have now uncovered broader problems at the MCC. It’s not clear what else has been found but, it goes beyond the 24 hours before Epstein’s death. Justice officials say the MCC has suffered a breakdown in protocols for a period that goes back years. @evanperez

— Shimon Prokupecz (@ShimonPro) August 12, 2019

Sorry, USA, but the MCC can only mean one thing, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marylebone_Cricket_Club

They're not wrong though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT4qObpOzeI

this new NY Times piece links him to Elon Musk and Tesla, because why fucking not

https://archive.is/qLDp2

The desperate pleas of a narcissist being left out to dry

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-interview.html

lmao, xpost there

“I kept trying to steer the conversation back to Tesla, but Mr. Epstein remained evasive. He said he’d spoken to the Saudis about possibly investing in Tesla, but he wouldn’t provide any specifics or names. When I pressed him on the purported email from Mr. Musk, he said the email wasn’t from Mr. Musk himself, but from someone very close to him. He wouldn’t say who that person was. I asked him if that person would talk to me, and he said he’d ask. He later said the person declined; I doubt he asked.”

GRIMES WHAT DO YOU KNOW

jeffrey 'actually it's ephebophilia' epstein didn't live long enough to become the libertarian party candidate in 2020 pic.twitter.com/KBMbu6F8FX

— ☭🕷️🐬The Antifada🐬🕷️☭ (@the_antifada) August 12, 2019

even milquetoast centrists are getting radicalized

I don’t even have a theory to fill out a conspiracy theory with, but it’s wild that Bill Barr’s dad hired young college dropout Jeffrey Epstein to be a high school calculus teacher.

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) August 12, 2019

can someone decode this for me

NEW YORK (AP) — AP source: One of Jeffrey Epstein's guards the night he hanged himself wasn't a correctional officer.

— Jonathan Lemire (@JonLemire) August 13, 2019

They didn't want to pay a real CO so some lower ranking person who does the same job but is paid less was doing it.

Ahh, gotcha. Conspiracy brain wants to know if that's a common practice in federal lockup but I assume that'll get discussed at some point

can someone decode this for me

Lower risk inmates do rounds/watch camera feeds.

Tbc I needed it decoded because that sentence was also the entire content of the AP story!

^ At least on the night shift.

lol I just noticed the end date on this poll is 9/11

I assumed that was intentional. But haven't set up a poll so don't know how the date's set.

even milquetoast centrists are getting radicalized

Yglesias hasn't been milquetoast for years, though.

wow, huge if true

Okay, so this seems like the first lead in this Epstein suicide story pic.twitter.com/RORJ3k0nGh

— Justin Halpern (@justin_halpern) August 13, 2019

The greatest trick Steve Jail ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

— A Choral Hexed Eleventh (@AHEveleth) August 13, 2019

When I saw that my first thought was that it had to be a parody account. It's so far out.

What was your next thought

'More coffee'

CBS News has learned that the morning of Jeffrey Epstein's death there was shouting and shrieking from his jail cell. Guards attempted to revive him while saying "breathe, Epstein, breathe."

Congress is the latest to start investigating Epstein's apparent suicide over the weekend, with new reports raising questions about the federal jail where he was being held. One of Epstein's guards at the Metropolitan Correctional Center on the night he died was reportedly not a regular corrections officer.

(...)

With Epstein gone, potential co-conspirators involved in his alleged sex-trafficking network are shifting into focus. British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell is one of four women accused of recruiting underage girls for sex. She's denied those claims in the past and has not been charged with a crime. Maxwell is said to be Epstein's ex-girlfriend turned business associate. Her current location is unknown.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jeffrey-epstein-death-shrieking-heard-jail-cell-morning-he-died-metropolitan-correctional-center/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=71953138

Nothing to see here...

the morning of Jeffrey Epstein's death there was shouting and shrieking from his jail cell. Guards attempted to revive him while saying "breathe, Epstein, breathe."

real "im not gonnela lose another one, goddammit!" air off this

gonna

lmao @ "steve jail"

"bonesaw...is my _middle_ name"

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/cf/d6/abcfd6bec911cac4817bc831218c6cef.png

Breathe for me Jeffrey!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urp-KGo6jw0

real "im not gonnela lose another one, goddammit!" air off this

― phil neville jacket (darraghmac), Tuesday, August 13, 2019 1:57 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://youtu.be/Nh-QOzHmr5s

lol that is the exact thing I was thinking of

Apparently some chud broke the story early on 4chan

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/fdny-investigating-jeffrey-epstein-4chan-post

That frog don’t hunt

Something good:

FBI agents swarm Jeffrey Epstein's private Caribbean island

only 13 short years since the fbi opened an investigation into epstein, great work lads

did they pull up after the document shredding team had left?

Time otm

How did a high-profile, high-risk prisoner have access to items he could use to hang himself? What procedures were and weren’t followed? These questions must be answered. If Barr cares about DOJ’s reputation, he should step aside and let career people conduct and oversee the investigation. If he does this, and if the investigation is exhaustive with results promptly made public, it would be a step in the long process of restoring faith in our justice system. All of us — especially Epstein’s victims, who have already been subjected to unthinkable trauma — are entitled to no less.

https://time.com/5650974/william-barr-jeffrey-epstein/

Some clarifications in here

The prison staff guarding Jeffrey Epstein's unit fell asleep on the job, failed to check on Mr. Epstein for approximately three hours, and then falsified records to cover it up, according to government officials. Our story: https://t.co/asBZpIKVrm @ktbenner @WRashbaum @cegoldbaum

— Danielle Ivory (@danielle_ivory) August 14, 2019

lmao

Prince Andrew announced his retirement today from public life after a long period of severe personal stress.
In a statement, his Royal Highness added he is ‘following advice’ from his doctor.
There was no comment from #buckinghampalace @BBCScotlandNews BBC-NEWS pic.twitter.com/gtxurRvPQb

— Brain Taylor (@BrainTaylorBBC) August 13, 2019

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EBsly6jWkAEFvV-.jpg

Poor guards if they fell asleep on the job but didn't actually get paid off.

The DM has a 2012 pic that allegedly shows the inside of Jeffrey Epstein's NYC mansion. He had a painting on the wall "which appeared to be Bill Clinton wearing a blue dress & red heels... The blue dress seemed to be a pointed reference to Clinton's former intern Monica Lewinsky" pic.twitter.com/VyAnk3Bnfn

— John Doe (@JohnDoe78359022) August 14, 2019

I think we just cracked this one wide open

i’ll be in my bunk

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Xy8YQU8Yk28/UUJDTjSmFoI/AAAAAAAAA8o/VNyYJPnGhsg/s1600/Parsing+Bill.jpg

i have a lot of questions...

And blue dresses were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Is it ok if that painting makes me feel... funny?

I'm neither your therapist nor your confidant, so I have no answer

This interview with Epstein"s bodyguard is uh

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2019/08/jeffrey-epsteins-bodyguard-igor-zinoviev-on-his-old-boss.html

It’s not the teenage girls. I never see the teenage girls. I tell you I never see teenage girls.

Plenty of times when I work for him I never see anything unproper or teenage girls around him.

That’s what I say.

Tell your mama, tell your pa
I'm gonna ship you back to Arkansas

that's what I say

yeesh

the part at the end where he just completely clams up and starts warning the reporter to stay out of it re: corrupt cops, that's strong vodka

In Russia Balkan teens traffic you

I really wish fewer celebrity sex criminals were Jewish. It’s depressing.

No way that's Gap.

https://t.co/LqAyFBS51C

Hmmmm

holy shit

so epstein’s body was claimed by an “unnamed assosciate” but his brother who was an artist who somehow “semi-retired” at 39 offered to pay his bail even though the government said he had no living immediate family. also he owns the apt building where many of his associates lived pic.twitter.com/ZVhaoxiPhG

— Nick Usen (@nickusen) August 15, 2019

https://www.thedailybeast.com/mark-epstein-the-man-who-could-inherit-jeffrey-epsteins-millions

The only connection Mark seems to have is his brother, and his businesses seem to be downplayed as unsuccessful?

Wonder if he tried to walk away from his brother after the shit hit the fan a decade ago

Maxwell was reading a book called “The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives” and seemed resigned to having her picture snapped, the source said.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epsteins-gal-pal-ghislaine-maxwell-spotted-at-in-n-out-burger-in-first-photos-since-his-death/

https://youtu.be/A0pjo3s3P5U

Borgerson has flatly denied any romance with Maxwell.

“I am not dating Ghislaine, I’m home alone with my cat,” he told The Post.

same

how completely normal is it that no one has seen this woman in public and officials were claiming her location was unknown, only for her to be sitting in front of an in-and-out burger reading *that*

this entire epstein saga is being written by a thomas pynchon with a head injury or something

it’s definitely the perfect narrative for our post-subtlety times

Yep

i don't understand why the broken neck bones are evidence of a conspiracy when those same bones are frequently broken in suicide-by-hanging, especially in men middle-aged and above?

people are trying hard to find evidence he didn't strangle himself

"frequently" seems to be 1 out of 4 or something like that, but in people who were restrained/choked by someone else the incidence rate is higher? it's grasping for straws, to be sure

it was reported that in his previous "suicide attempt" he was found in his cell, passed out in the fetal position, with marks on his neck (he appeared in court shortly afterward with no marks on his neck)

this entire epstein saga is being written by a thomas pynchon with a head injury or something
― untuned mass damper (mh), Thursday, August 15, 2019 4:59 PM (twenty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

probably only a few days from photographs of Maxwell on John McAfee's fugitive schooner

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-hyoid-bone-broken-neck/

In the article Hyoid bone fracture caused by blunt neck trauma, multiple authors found that “Hyoid bone fracture is usually the result of direct trauma to the neck because of manual strangulation, hanging, blunt trauma or projectiles.”

They explained in the Journal of Acute Medicine: “However, fracture of the hyoid bone is rare because it is protected by the mandible. In fact, most hyoid bone injuries are caused by strangulation.”

I found this one the other day (most news orgs seem to have found my first google result too, that Thai study of 20 cases)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17720591/?i=2&from=/20973326/related

Suicidal hanging: fatalities in Istanbul retrospective analysis of 761 autopsy cases.
Uzün I, et al. J Forensic Leg Med. 2007.
Show full citation
Abstract

We retrospectively analyzed the autopsy records of the Institute of Forensic Medicine during the five-year period between 1998 and 2002 to document the characteristics of fatalities resulting from hanging which is the commonest mode of suicide in Istanbul. Upon analysis of death scene investigation and autopsy reports together with the information gathered from the police, the cases of hanging fatalities of suicidal origin were selected. Seven hundred sixty one hanging cases of suicidal origin were detected and evaluated in terms of demographic features, the type of hanging material used for ligature, cause of death, internal findings in neck organs, other traumatic findings suggesting the use of another method for suicide, toxicological findings and microscopic findings in delayed death cases. In 364 of these cases suspension was complete and in 397 incomplete. Five hundred thirty seven of those (70.56%) were male and 224 (29.44%) were female. The preponderance of male cases in our autopsy population was also detected in suicidal hanging cases. There was no case aged lower 10 and the number of the cases in the age group of cases aged over 80 was the lowest (n=3, 0.4%). In 634 of cases, the place of hanging was the subject's own house, most victims selected rope (652 cases) for the ligature with the rest using sheet, belt, cable and necktie. There were traumatic findings showing attempts of suicide other than hanging in 24 cases (tentative marks in 22 cases and non-fatal burning in 2). In 23 of cases, there were bruises of different ages. In these cases females constituted the majority suggesting violence against women that is a social problem in various cultural subgroups of our country. This violence may have played a role in the decision of suicide. Superficial bruises were detected in 56 cases and were attributed to the trauma. Fractures in neck organs were detected in 446 of cases. In fracture-determined cases, fracture in hyoid bone was seen in 177, in thyroid cartilage in 163, in both hyoid and thyroid in 106. Vertebral fracture was detected in six cases and fractures both in hyoid, thyroid and vertebra was found in four cases. Hyperemic lines around the ligature were prominent in 620 of the cases and soft tissue ecchymoses in all cases. In 305 of the cases (40.07%) diagnosis was based only on the soft tissue hemorrhage.

the plot thickens

everybody stay calm but ghislaine maxwell is an anagram for an illegal sex whim

— Andrea Long Chu (@theorygurl) August 15, 2019

scully: Epstein died of strangulation by an unknown assailant
mulder: *throws her a file* ever heard of the suicide alien

— Wow, Bob Mackey! (@bobservo) August 15, 2019

In one of the zillion Epstein threads on Twitter someone linked to this, which has an incredible anecdote about Ghislane Maxwell

https://observer.com/2002/11/vikram-chatwal-turban-cowboy/

I asked what his social life had been like recently, and he mentioned a dinner party at the Manhattan townhouse of Lady Ghislaine Maxwell, the daughter of the late British media baron Robert Maxwell. The guest of honor, said Mr. Chatwal, was Prince Andrew, who told a “quite humorous” joke involving Pepto-Bismol and his brother Prince Charles’ girlfriend, Camilla Parker Bowles. Then Ms. Maxwell told a story about how she flew a Blackhawk helicopter in Colombia and fired a rocket into a supposed terrorist camp.

“Ghislaine is just the most rocking babe I’ve ever met,” said Mr. Chatwal. “She blew up a tank . That is amazing . After that, my perception of her completely changed. I said, ‘You have to be the coolest person alive.'”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbehar/2019/08/15/jeffrey-epstein-spent-time-alone-with-young-female-prison-visitor/

It’s understandable why Epstein would want to avoid his cell. Conditions inside MCC are legendarily bad—”miserable,” according to Patton—and Epstein had complained about rodents and bad food, according to multiple reports. At least the SHU meeting room would get him out of his cell. But the 1970s-era facility left a lot to be desired by both inmates and attorneys. Patton said the MCC isn’t as bad as more violent lockups, like Rikers Island. “But it’s one of the worst in different respects: Incredibly cramped—the only ‘outdoor’ recreation is on the rooftop under heavy fencing,” he said.

As for the SHU, where Epstein was kept, Patton said the conditions are even harsher. Inmates are housed in their cells 23 hours a day, and there’s only a tiny window letting in a sliver of natural light. “It’s a forbidding physical place to spend time. And it doesn’t certainly help in terms of mental health, or people improving their disposition, or getting them prepared to eventually reenter society and be more productive than when they went in,” he said.

Which is why any inmate would likely prefer to sit in a private room. Epstein, though, could afford to pay lawyers to sit there with him. As for the woman he saw sitting with Epstein, the attorney said, “I think she was there just to babysit him, and keep him out of his cell, and just keep him company for eight hours a day. Which is not supposed to be the way it works.”

The hyoid bone is protected in the front and sides by the mandible and in the back by the spine. It is mobile. Less than 0.002% of fractures involve the hyoid. Only 31 cases of traumatic hyoid fracture other than strangulation have been documented. Jeffrey Epstein aint number 32.

— Eugene Gu, MD (@eugenegu) August 15, 2019

The hyoid bone is protected in the front and sides by the mandible and in the back by the spine. It is mobile. Less than 0.002% of fractures involve the hyoid. Only 31 cases of traumatic hyoid fracture other than strangulation have been documented. Jeffrey Epstein aint number 32.

can we stop quoting viral twitter junkie/abuser eugene gu, though. dude has no credibility

I had no idea who he was

yeah, sorry for phrasing it like that. dude sucks!

back on track: that vikram chatwal story mentions he had a “G” tattooed on his arm for Gisele Bunchen, which seems creepy and weird. but, from a new GM story:

She went by “G” rather than her distinctive first name, neighbors said, had a vizsla dog and took walks to the waterfront, but kept largely to herself.

hmmm!

Best part of that profile is this bit:

Puff Daddy arrived, dressed as a king with a crown and a long, flowing red robe. “He’s a real cool, down-to-earth guy,” said the rapper of Mr. Chatwal.

Oh wait I misread that as Chatwal talking about Puff Daddy lol. Still, interesting glimpse of that world

The guest of honor, said Mr. Chatwal, was Prince Andrew, who told a “quite humorous” joke involving Pepto-Bismol and his brother Prince Charles’ girlfriend, Camilla Parker Bowles.

I’m quite sure the punchline here is Irritable Bowles Syndrome.

Lol it probably was

lol

He wants to be reincarnated as a jumbo pack of nappies this time

https://nypost.com/2019/08/15/american-flags-lowered-to-half-staff-on-jeffrey-epsteins-private-islands/

Boat captain Kelly Quinn, owner of Salty Dog Day Sails, was cruising past Little St. James, just off the southeast coast of St. Thomas in the US Virgin Islands, when she captured photos and videos of the lowering.

“It was a real moment out there and it just felt so heavy,” Quinn told NBC News. “I didn’t feel there was a realness of the end of Jeffrey Epstein until I saw that. That was a lot more literal.”

Though it wasn’t clear who lowered the two flags on each end of the 70-acre property, Quinn said she believes it was one of Epstein’s employees.

“They’re doing this as a remembrance, but the irony is he’ll only be remembered for the deviance,” Quinn said of the convicted pedophile and accused child sex trafficker.

lol @ this boat tour person being a recurring character

pedobear flag also at half mast

bill clinton at half mast

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/8f16cd8e-99a6-40ad-9087-349aeff2f74a/scale-to-width-down/800

"At first we didn't think much of the flag at half staff. By that point we had all grown accustomed to flags being lowered. Being ... draped. Over coffins, over bodies. We barely noticed the flag, but it was not long before we noticed the sharks. Oh, we saw them, alright. Circling the island, around and around. You could see their fins pokin' up over the surf, and you knew they were searchin', with those cold, black eyes. They were attracted, you see, to the blood. The scent of it. They went 'round and 'round, waitin' for the ... wait, did you say Quint or Quinn? Quinn? Oh, my bad."

Goddam it. Stepped on my own dumb joke.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/8f16cd8e-99a6-40ad-9087-349aeff2f74a/scale-to-width-down/800

from Counterpunch:

Subsequent reporting of the case will overlook decades of the elite-driven state craft that elevated corrupt and ruthless entities like Epstein and Trump, both ring-kissing acolytes in their youth of influential mob fixer/politcal power broker Roy Cohn – himself a serial sexual predator who similarly caught the fancy of fellow deviants Joe McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover. Follow the money trail from Tel Aviv and you’ll discover an ancestral link between the corpse of Epstein and his ghostly godfathers waiting with his rewards in hell.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/16/la-danse-mossad-robert-maxwell-and-jeffrey-epstein

It’s all really just organized crime innit

Epstein’s covert activities have undiminished real world consequences for anyone on Israel’s international radar, especially those challenging the status quo policies in place that prioritize “The Jewish State’s” political and financial objectives over actual justice and global stability.

mm...hmm

damn I missed that, sorry. I was interested in the history aspect

now I feel stupid for posting that but I did not know abt the Cohn connection

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/06/donald-trump-roy-cohn-relationship/amp

love too kneel with force pic.twitter.com/VG8l2Y1GFS

— TrueAnon Pod (@TrueAnonPod) August 16, 2019

Reverse crunches are important core work.

whats the melting point of hyoid

I’d have simply leaned forward firmly, not done a faux hanging

We need some diagrams, mock up photos of the cell,some arrows etc.

I keep thinking that. I've seen pics of similar units specifically designed to prevent this sort of thing

absolute units

lol

Screaming is often heard from the cells of those leaning forward forcibly.

I'm paywalled but there's a new NYT story "recounting Epstein's final days"

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-appearances/the-gall-of-ghislaine-maxwell

Before her was a burger, perhaps served “animal style,” which, in In-N-Out parlance, means topped with all the fixings

LOL

The anonymous photographer told the Post that Maxwell was reading “The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of C.I.A. Operatives,” which, if true, seemed to suggest her awareness of people’s fascination, and also their conspiracy-theory-mongering. There appeared to be, in other words, a distinct possibility that Maxwell was fucking with us. An ultra-wealthy cohort had allegedly committed a series of heinous crimes, in plain sight, with a kind of entitled shrug, and a general sense that they were above the rules of society and would never be caught. In Maxwell’s impenitent gaze, we could see the broader audacity of the Epstein affair.

How is this woman not either in jail or in hiding overseas?

also she's at the in-n-out by universal studios so make another layer

I find the anecdote about her blowing up the tank very distressing

If you're not aware of it already his father had quite some life (and death) story.

... her father

https://twitter.com/christapeterso/status/1164268214798340096?s=21

deleted

Deleted my tweet about this sounding like Steven Pinker bc a journalist that as far as I can tell seems plausibly positioned to know says it’s not. But if it is still a Harvard professor.... ugh pic.twitter.com/nOyOnpCjDv

— 🍒 13 Leading Scholars 🍒 (@christapeterso) August 21, 2019

We haven't even covered the fact that the Ghislaine In-n-Out photo appears to have been a fake

I have found him, the dumbest journalist
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/jeffrey-epsteins-bodyguard-igor-zinoviev-on-his-old-boss.html

We haven't even covered the fact that the Ghislaine In-n-Out photo appears to have been a fake

― Simon H., Thursday, August 22, 2019 4:02 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.thedailybeast.com/photo-of-jeffrey-epstein-pal-ghislaine-maxwell-at-in-n-out-burger-was-staged-paper-claims

Definitely weird. Her lawyer apparently took the picture and shopped in a few details to make it look like she was there at a certain time. I guess she's trying to stay ahead of everybody by obfuscating and muddying the waters about her whereabouts.

bottom of the Gulf of Mexico maybe

We found Jeffrey Epstein's Spotify account, where his tastes ranged from Louis C.K. to songs like 'Before You Accuse Me' and 'Hot for Teacher.' https://t.co/PyV3RPq5KV

— Business Insider (@businessinsider) August 22, 2019

...the banality of evil

huh who would have thought that the extremely dude heavy techno intelligentsia was in cahoots with epstein too

https://newrepublic.com/article/154826/jeffrey-epsteins-intellectual-enabler

the mit media lab’s entanglements with him being revealed feels like the very tip of a gross iceberg

On that subject, a new interview w. a formerly close associate

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-my-very-very-sick-pal/

Pivar was also present for a number of Epstein’s science summits. Epstein himself was no scientist, said Pivar, the author of Lifecode: The Theory of Biological Self-Organization and an advocate of non-Darwinian models of evolution. (This was borne out in a recent New York Times story that described Epstein’s interest in cryonics and eugenics and his wish to “seed the human race with his DNA by impregnating women” at his New Mexico ranch.) Epstein was a dilettante, and easily distracted. But he pulled so many prominent thinkers into his social circle, using the promise of his money to create “some kind of a mini university of thought,” that in Pivar’s view he did “amazing, incredible, amazing, remarkable things for science.” There were lavish dinner parties with the likes of Steven Pinker and Stephen Jay Gould during which Epstein would ask provocatively elementary questions like “What is gravity?” If the conversation drifted beyond his interests, Epstein was known to interrupt, “What does that got to do with pussy?!”

Pivar was close enough to Epstein that the financier put him “in charge of Ghislaine while she was profoundly depressed from the death of her father,” the media mogul Robert Maxwell. Despite their friendship, Pivar said, he was “insulated” from the lurid aspects of Epstein’s personal life. “I don’t know anything about that,” he said, “because I was never invited to the Isle of Babes,” Epstein’s private island in the Caribbean.

In his telling, Pivar ended his friendship with Epstein after learning from Farmer of her sexual assault. Some evidence of the tension between Pivar and Epstein is lying in public view. In August 2007, Pivar sued a science blogger named P.Z. Myers and Seed Media Group, which hosted his blog, alleging defamation. Myers had lit into Pivar’s work, calling him “a classic crackpot.” In his complaint, Pivar made a point of mentioning by name two prominent members of SMG’s board: Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. The lawsuit was later dropped.

this interview is *incredibly* gross and long so I'll wait for other people to pick out highlights. I did notice the Unabomber makes an appearance.

highlights couldn't capture its commodius vicus of recirculation, back to nymphomania or to the impossibility of describing gravity. relatedly, the book he sued p.z. myers for reviewing is about how all organisms are actually topological deformations of the same primordial toroid. a man with a circular mind. also lol:

I have to add another compliment for the book, though. In addition to the lovely artwork, it's an extremely high quality print; well bound, on heavy stock, and looking to last a thousand years. It seems no expense was spared getting it published, which is in contrast to the content, and is unusual for such flagrant crackpottery.

Epstein was a dilettante, and easily distracted.

doctor, heal thyself

"jaron lanier and all that group, the greatest thinkers that they were"

“some kind of a mini university of thought,”

hoooo boy

Between those years, in 1999, Larry Celona rides with Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and others on the Lolita Express from Teterboro, NJ to Palm Beach for a short weekend. They return with two extra women.

Teterboro is now being reported as the hub of Epstein's sex traffic network. pic.twitter.com/6qenteH0pV

— ᏔმƦ𝔢ჳ💤 (@mooncult) August 23, 2019

Fast-forward to 2019, Larry Celona is still working at the NY Post and still breaking exclusives:

He was the first to report Epstein's first "suicide attempt"

He was the first to report of Epstein's successful "suicide"

He was the first to release photos of Epstein's dead body pic.twitter.com/GWEt7aqwV5

— ᏔმƦ𝔢ჳ💤 (@mooncult) August 23, 2019

never gonna stop, give it up, such a dirty mind
i always get it up, for the touch of the younger kind
my, my, my, aye-aye, whoa!
m-m-m-my celona

srsly tho that’s extremely fuckin weird , especially the eyes wide shut connection

It's exactly the kind of thing that turns me into a gibbering mess when I think about this stuff too much tbh

tfw u realise the elite pedo ring killed the man who faked the moon landings

They also suggest a preference for hard-rock songs from the 1970s that emphasized male sexual conquest, as well as the odd song about sexual attraction between children and adults — Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher" and an Oscar Peterson performance of "My Heart Belongs to Daddy."

That Peterson/Gillespie version slaps tbh

Very good

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/23/prince-andrew-appalled-epstein-royal-wedding

Further down the thread someone does point out that Celona on the jet is nearly certainly a false positive - Glen Dubin, listed on the same flights, has a daughter named Celina, and the rest of the line up is also family, their nanny, and his wife Eva, an ex of Epstein's.

I don't normally like Marina Hyde but that one is great.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECvTbE4XkAAhqlq?format=jpg

lol quite apart from being bad content-wise idea this is so badly written -- these ppl's brains are just deliquescing like the "facts in the case of m.valdemar"

the superscript on the date ordinal alone merits the guillotine

"I can only reiterate my regret that I was mistaken to think that what I thought I knew of him was evidently not the real person"

what?

His Mother's English.

i mean since this is the conspiracy-mongering thread gotta wonder if/why his ma allowed him to slip this nonsense past the press-officer sub-editor flunkey

my theory: she's already concluded this particular failson is surplus to the firm's requirements (slow-burn revenge for it's a royal knockout)

I'm still trying to work out if that quote actually means the opposite of what he wants to say.

how i break it down (to some extent):

I can only reiterate = to be clear
my regret that I was mistaken = i was wrong (sadly)
to think (that what) I thought = to assume
(that what) I knew of him was evidently not the real person = he wasn’t who i thought

to be clear, i was wrong (sadly) to assume he wasn’t who i thought
= to be clear, i was right (sadly) to assume he was who i thought

so he means "i regret to inform you i knew all along" lol

at one level these horrible ppl beclowning themselves (cf also pivar above, and dersh) is hard not to laugh at, but on a deeper level it's just so awful -- because this is who has power: utter idiots able to behave in viciously ghastly ways :|

"I can only reiterate my regret that I was mistaken to think that what I thought I knew of him was evidently not the real person"

Implying: "I was mistaken to think that what I thought I knew of him was evidently not the real person"

Implying: "I thought that what I thought I knew of him was not the real person."

Which kind of sounds like: “I thought that he was a bad person.”

Putting it all back together: "I regret that I mistakenly thought that he was a bad person.”

that mother jones interview is unhinged.

this is who has power: utter idiots able to behave in viciously ghastly ways :|

To coin a phrase, "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". To which I would add, when the primary basis of that power is inheritance, you get a high percentage of corrupt idiots.

I'm more of a fan of the "power reveals character" school of thought.

character is not immutable imo. add new elements to a person's condition and they often change in response. the 'reveals character' hypothesis requires that whatever appears to be new was already there, but hidden. because changes in behavior are clearly evident, but the hidden pre-existence of a newly apparent character trait was not evident, the simpler explanation (they just changed) seems to me closer to the truth.

power changes people

but to Simon's point, who seeks power?

people don't change, power reveals

new poll

Uhhhhhhhh....

Jeffrey Epstein transferred more than $577 million in assets to his brother two days before his suicide. Lisa Bloom, the lawyer representing several of his alleged victims in a civil suit, describes what that means for the case.https://t.co/iIpAKNCAOA

— MSNBC (@MSNBC) August 24, 2019

A huge donation to a reporter's favored nonprofit.
A bullet with a message.
A cat's severed head in the front yard of an editor-in-chief.

Those were some of the tools Jeffrey Epstein is said to have used to try to soften news coverage: https://t.co/tF87ZzfQbH

— NPR (@NPR) August 23, 2019

(slow-burn revenge for it's a royal knockout)

tbf to the appalling Andrew, that was entirely Edward's doing, he's barely been seen in public since and it was over 30 years ago!

I'm more of a fan of the "power reveals character" school of thought.

― Simon H., Saturday, August 24, 2019 2:00 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

power changes people

― flappy bird, Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:16 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

both

Malova did not respond to an email. A former Miss Russia, she moved to the US and made it to the final of the 1998 Miss Universe beauty pageant, which was then owned by Donald Trump – another former friend of Epstein.

In 2010 she was accused of forging a prescription for Vicodin from a stolen doctor’s pad. She was jailed in May 2011 after repeatedly arriving late for a court-mandated drug programme.

i was reading about this epstein motherfucker today, god knows why, and these paragraphs really hit me

which part of it?

the word 'former' is making a ton of assumptions in that sentence

which part of it? the part where the young woman gets shuttled through various gates of privilege by incredibly powerful men and driven to a life of petty drugs fraud?

More digging re Epstein's ties to scientists

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/peteraldhous/jeffrey-epstein-science-donations-apologies-statements

They say sunshine is the best disinfectant. But failing that, bushel baskets of cash do the job pretty well, too.

FBI studies two broken cameras outside cell where Epstein died: source https://t.co/l9Zm9DIKVz pic.twitter.com/dlC9lwFpnp

— Reuters Top News (@Reuters) August 29, 2019

oh hey another insultingly predictable development

huh

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/ghislaine-maxwell?events=175309124&family=editorial&phrase=ghislaine%20maxwell&sort=best#license

Selma Blair's time to shine in the eventual movie imho

thanks to the tipster who sent these pix of Prince Andrew at an Eyes Wide Shut themed party pic.twitter.com/RSWZa6q1rp

— Molly Lambert 🦔 (@mollylambert) August 29, 2019

Maxwell's probably been at some of the same social gatherings as Trump since her dad was alive, no?

THIS IS IN GHISLAINE’S HOUSE pic.twitter.com/xEucMcTtqo

— Molly Lambert 🦔 (@mollylambert) August 30, 2019

Oh come on, now they're exaggerating - who doesn't have an innocent picture of a harem in their house?

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/atmosphere-at-hamish-bowles-ghislaine-maxwell-and-lillian-news-photo/609446606

the way eyes wide shut keeps popping up around this guy and the people connected to him is... intriguing

Eh, this is taking a turn for the Pizzagate - could we stick with the sexual abuse and leave the art criticism?

otfm

I'm as appalled as everyone else that the jeffrey epstein memorial poll and conspiracy-mongering thread might have devolved into frivolous speculation but, wrt Epstein in particular, it seems pretty clear that his weird aesthetic choices reveal something about the kind of persona he wanted to project and the atmosphere he wanted to create for his co-conspirators and victims. Maxwell possibly less so.

citation needed

Even if they used "secret symbols" relating to pedophilia, it's not really all that interesting when you step back from it, because, uh, we already know that they were pedophiles. Like, that's the sinister part, not the use of symbols.

As an aside I just want to thank the dreamlords for not making that thing show up in my dreams last night after I made the mistake of looking closely at it right before bed.

I'm as appalled as everyone else that the jeffrey epstein memorial poll and conspiracy-mongering thread might have devolved into frivolous speculation

lol

Even if they used "secret symbols" relating to pedophilia, it's not really all that interesting when you step back from it, because, uh, we already know that they were pedophiles. Like, that's the sinister part, not the use of symbols.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), 30. august 2019 16:12 (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, but it is a bit scary that they seemed to have quite openly advertised that they were, at least, exploiting women. That mail John Brockman send to Evgeny Morozov (https://newrepublic.com/article/154826/jeffrey-epsteins-intellectual-enabler), there's just no doubt that he's trying to lure Morozov with the promise of sex with prostitutes / models. And that Epstein is a 'perv' seems to be a selling point. They wanted it to seem like they had a nefarious sex cult like on Eyes Wide Shut.

Would the MIT Media Lab, TED Conferences, and Wired have the clout and the intellectual orientation that they have now without the extensive network cultivated by Brockman over decades? I, for one, very much doubt it.

the specific clout these things share is what makes them less-interesting entries in the scientific/intellectual space imo

And that Epstein is a 'perv' seems to be a selling point.

Well it's already out there that he was more or less pimping out girls to associates so yeah. I don't think that was necessarily the attraction for everyone who hung out with him--he was also just rich and connected, and someone could certainly wind up invited to his party either without knowing more about him or just looking the other way (especially an elite person used to traveling in circles where no one really gets in trouble for anything most of the time).

What I'm getting at is, we know there was a pedophilia ring operating. That's bad enough. Focusing on all the "symbols" and stuff just give it this supernatural or horror movie element that (1) it really doesn't need and (2) kind of render the whole thing cartoonish and distract from the much more real and, in some senses, ordinary horror. Which I get, the guy had a fucking temple on his island, but still, unless you actually believe in Satan, it's almost beside the point.

Yeah, I agree, and the other thing is that this cartoonish evil might even be it's own sort of cover up, meant to get Epstein to look weird and kitchy, rather than an exploitive pedophile. But for me then that becomes it's own kind of horror, the forethought that goes into that kind of cover up. But that's not how it's reported.

Honestly without the eccentricity the case would probably fall out of the discourse entirely so I say talk it up

i feel like the whole "this paedophile spent lots of time with some of america's most prominent men including half of the presidents of the last quarter century" is "interesting" enough on its own

Honestly without the eccentricity the case would probably fall out of the discourse entirely so I say talk it up

― Simon H., 30. august 2019 21:48 (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nah, it got back into the discourse through the work of Julie K Brown, and those articles didn't play up the eccentricity at all.

Maybe, but shit like the temple, that MMA guy interview, and the Eyes Wide Shut connections are keeping it there.

is it insane that I don't care about any of this? Simon and Fred seem to care a lot which is a good indication I shouldn't care about this at all, but I'm not positive

there's only a few hundred (or more) alleged victims and a few former and current heads of state involved so

*furiously tries to formulate take*

Maybe, but shit like the temple, that MMA guy interview, and the Eyes Wide Shut connections are keeping it there.

― Simon H., 30. august 2019 21:57 (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've literally only heard about Eyes Wide Shut, and that's because Eazy posted about it. It's not at all what I see people talking about. Unlesss MMA means something else than Mixed Martial Arts?

there's only a few hundred (or more) alleged victims and a few former and current heads of state involved so

― Simon H., Friday, August 30, 2019 1:04 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I mean the actual crimes are obviously bad but what does it profit me to pay attention to it now instead of reading about it in a book in seven or ten years

He fucked a bunch of kids and the guy who was secretary of Labor until last month gave him a sweetheart deal?

what does it profit me to pay attention to it now instead of reading about it in a book in seven or ten years

idk what to tell you, seems like this would apply to....the vast majority of topics

including the trump presidency

Yeah, is this like from the point of view of getting laid at parties, or..?

I thought we already covered that topic.

(sorry)

idk what to tell you, seems like this would apply to....the vast majority of topics

― Simon H., Friday, August 30, 2019 1:19 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

including the trump presidency

― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, August 30, 2019 1:23 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is how I treat the trump presidency fwiw

I'm in no way the "ahem, you mean ephebophile guy" and think we should be considering any predation on youth equally repulsive but that is in no way the way any of these guys, or a large swath of society, has thought about the exploitation of girls and the larger idea that a lot of people still refuse to grasp is that the commodification of teen girls is inherently wrong

It's the same mindset that means there's no cognitive dissonance between the same people saying "oh, he always had girls around" or "Jeff would hook these guys up with girls" and immediately referring to the same exploited people as "young women" as soon as it's implied something wrong occurred

There's a lie that the perceived sexual attractiveness of these teen children, and the value placed on that attraction by lechs like Epstein, somehow means that they had some sort of power. And the language used around that attraction is always phrased as if the older, exploitative man has lesser agency. It's always "he couldn't help himself" or "I just *had* to grab her" or whatever other disgusting construction exists. And it goes hand-in-hand with language blaming victims, claims that a teen is able to "lead on" an adult or a claim that if they "didn't really want" to be exploited, they'd have gone to authorities, parents, etc. -- and we know how effective that is.

I think pinning the broader problem of the objectification and commodification of girls' sexuality on extremely exploitative and powerful people like Epstein and treating this case as extreme doesn't help. Yes, he was involved in and an enabler for some completely horrible things. At the same time, the surface level of what he was doing (surrounding himself with girls who may have seemed of consenting age, using access to an environment with lots of young women as a perk) sits right on the edge of what a large swath of culture has deemed if not acceptable, within the bounds of normal behavior.

We're to the point where society is getting much better at questioning the inherent power dynamics that can lead to exploitation when it comes to age, workplace reporting, student/instructor relationships, etc. but the exploitation of these things is still too-often shrugged off.

I think, to jim's point, it's "interesting" that he spent time with presidents, but at the same time, these are men who we know exploited their power to assault or coerce women in a completely open (or publicly revealed) way and while the public disapproves, many people are willing to shrug it off as a lesser sin. I don't think any information is going to put Bill Clinton in a room with a fifteen year old he knowingly exploited, but if Epstein's enabling means we end up seeing pictures of a woman he "thought was eighteen" sitting in his lap, I'm going to be disgusted and not at all surprised.

All of this depresses me, but I'm sadly past being shocked. Obviously all the leads stemming from the Epstein case should be run down and offenders should be prosecuted, but I'm worried that for too many people, the concentration is going to be on Epstein as a completely outlier sicko and the line of what's acceptable won't change for most.

idk I won't shit up your thread I'm just agog at all the pepesilvia.jpg that seems to be going on xps

wow mh v otm and much smarter than I can be during business hours

I think the only reason to make the pedophile/ephebophile distinction is in the application of societal change and not moral judgment, because both are fucked up but only one relies on the pervasive idea that there's some notion that for girls there is no real period of adolescence and that there's a near-overnight granting of adult social and sexual agency.

Our society has some very fucked up ideas about who is allowed to have an adolescence and how long that lasts!

thanks silby! I'm still in run-on repetitive sentence mode but I haven't had to expend too much brainpower on work this week and I've only just returned from vacation

I mean the actual crimes are obviously bad but what does it profit me to pay attention to it now instead of reading about it in a book in seven or ten years

the likelihood that he was very un-stealthily murdered in prison, about a year after the sitting president, to whom he was connected, burbled approvingly about a US journalist being sawed to death inside a consulate, bcz said journalist had embarrassed a despot, is a data point worth noting

if you are not waiting seven years to read about the president, shrug

I'm also a regular traveller on the "it's valuable to assess the power violations and motivating pathology between raping small children, trafficking teenagers, and assaulting adult women, as sometimes different" train, good post mh

I have no clue if that’s sarcastic

sic I think mh’s point is that the sexual exploitation of postpubescent girls is basically acceptable in our culture, and that a fixation on the powerful men and the conspiracy involved isn’t actually reckoning with that

My point is that the news is basically a slot machine, suspending the customer in a state of modulated anxiety, dripping out slow poison at a steady clip with just enough exciting moments to keep you plugging in quarters, and I no longer care to engage.

The difference between this thread and threads debating theories about Lost is no teenagers were raped to bring you ABC’s Lost

No sarcasm at all! There are hundreds of horrible aspects about, around & connected to these issues & focusing especially on any one of them sadly lessens reckoning with many others

But I don’t want to derail this thread by bringing more examples in

u see

xxxpost

silby I get it, I stopped reading or listening to news media for about five years out of pure horrified despair during Howard’s second term

turned out this didn’t actually stop the news from happening, unfortunately

Until yesterday I would have said the Epstein case might signal a broader rethinking of powerful men using their status to have sex with underage girls, but I just read the reviews for the new Polanski film, and that doesn't seem to be true.

I think it will have some ripple effects -- there will still be Polanskis and Epsteins in the world but maybe some of their borderline enablers will be less likely to just sit back and say "oh, there goes that guy doing his thing." Esp in combination with #metoo.

great post mh.

As for aesthetic crimes,

The entrance hall is decorated not with paintings but with row upon row of individually framed eyeballs; these, the owner tells people with relish, were imported from England, where they were made for injured soldiers.

^ austerity measures went further than I'd thought

Anyway, r we moving on from 'he killed himself' as a respectable take lol

No. The will transferring the estate to his brother is 2 days before Epstein's death. The media Ghislane disclosures were a day or two before, too.

These could imply that Epstein was aware of plans afoot to off him, but they're also consistent with suicide, or my pet theory of assisted suicide.

I don't think it can be ruled out -- it's not like it would be odd for someone in his position, accused of his crimes, to want to kill himself rather than stand trial, it's just that there's also so much to suggest otherwise.

this collection of scumbags my lord https://nypost.com/2019/09/02/jeffrey-epsteins-model-scouting-pal-has-disappeared-without-a-trace

That can’t be a recent photo, unless all the blood sacrifices actually work.