Defenestrate Them All: Canadian Politics 2021

This definitely clears things up for Ontario:

NEW: The Premier’s Office has sent out an FAQ about yesterday’s stay-at-home announcement in Ontario. Answers below 👇🏼#onpoli pic.twitter.com/6LiV2UH8EV

— Laura Stone (@l_stone) January 13, 2021

Basically, they are not defining anything but I think this still holds true from yesterday?: "The province will provide authority to all provincial offences officers, including the Ontario Provincial Police, local police forces, bylaw officers, and provincial workplace inspectors to issue tickets to individuals who do not comply with the stay-at-home-order..." It just seems like delegating all judgment to the police? How did they manage to make this even less coherent?

o m g. Forget that generous feeling I mentioned yesterday. That is really bad.

You can envision, when this ends, a court system backed up for years litigating the meaning of "unique circumstances" and "may legitimately be necessary."

seems very easy for police to apply these guidelines in unequal ways

“Police have also been authorized to shoot offenders,” Ford mumbled wistfully.

to follow up on doofusy tweets by leaders of the CPC:

I don’t think Canada needs another slogan, it needs a plan. Do you agree?

We need to build back stronger, and the only way that can happen is with a united country. 🇨🇦 pic.twitter.com/rYx2zqIUNy

— Erin O'Toole (@erinotoole) October 1, 2020

I remember people sharing this piece in 2015 and thinking it was dubious since a Tory advertising strategy v clearly was then and is now to portray Trudeau as a "vapid...airhead", as per that ad (and, er, slogan): https://www.feministcurrent.com/2015/10/23/dont-worry-justin-trudeau-will-never-be-hurt-by-sexist-objectification/ . That said, the fact that this strategy has yet to find success might prove her right idk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJjdsm4B7bc

really doubt those "nice hair" ads shifted a single vote

That O’Toole tweet is pretty interesting in light of all the recent fringey freak outs over politicians using the almost same phrase “build back better” as some coded globalist conspiracy about “the great reset”.

build back better = evil, globalist, pedo ring

build back stronger = good common sense, a plan not a slogan, Canada first

I don't think Canada needs another slogan! It needs three new slogans! Take that, Canada!

“Canada needs a handyman” you expect the guy in the photo to be Mike Holmes.

Yeah, at the risk of giving the Tories a better campaign idea, what's funny is that he could have made it "Canada needs a captain" or "Canada needs a pilot" and made a reference to his actually respectable air force career. Instead he concluded that pretending to be Bob the Builder is the ticket to victory.

The right O'Toole for the job!

OK, here's the actual stay-at-home order. The announcements had been written badly but it seems like getting curbside pickup is OK: https://files.ontario.ca/solgen-stay-at-home-order-2021-01-13.pdf . I'm not sure what the difference from the previous lockdown is.

Erin "o'Toole Man" Taylor

Hm, if this is accurate, maybe school closures are more justified than I thought tbh (URL does not describe comments - a new U de M study finds that elementary schools are a driving factor behind the spread of COVID in Montreal): https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/emsb-unveils-air-purifiers-maintaining-they-will-slow-spread-of-covid-19

Yeah, it's worth bringing that article up again since the 2020 thread is now closed.

I don't know about Ontario or even the rest of Quebec, to be honest, but closing schools anew would certainly be justified in Montreal right now. I suspect we'll hit a new hospitalization peak in the coming days. As soon as it subsides, Legault will claim victory and argue that keeping schools open was the right call. A couple of weeks later, we'll be back to square one and he'll be forced to implement even stricter lockdown measures. It seems to me that his strategy is reactive rather than proactive, partly because the general population prefers it that way (it makes the decision-making process more 'legible', as it were, and seeing is believing). Regardless, I do hope to be proven wrong.

Oh ha, did you already share it? I just saw it tonight, my bad.

Warning: National Post, but I can't find another English source for this atm.

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/head-of-radio-canada-spent-month-of-december-in-his-miami-condo-despite-public-health-warnings

Does it make a difference that he's not an elected official?

I think it does, it's just that CBC/Radio-Canada have been campaigning against non-essential travel for months now.

There's a rep for the small-business association who appears on a London radio station regularly. She was just on and quite upset. I've heard her many times and trust the accuracy of what she says. 1) With the 8:00 curbside pickup rule in effect, Amazon is allowed to deliver after 8:00 p.m. (not sure if they actually do that) while small-business owners are not allowed to personally run over a delivery after their stores close; 2) Walmart and Costco are still allowed to stay open after 8:00 p.m. as long as they meet the 50% food threshold (maybe I have the number wrong--that seems high).

Setting an 8:00 pm limit does seem a bit like a very soft curfew, and I don't know that I see the point of those, but it also seems relatively generous for most small businesses, I think?

I think it's more the two sets of rules than the curfew itself. As she put it, the government--and she urged the host to get someone on to explain their reasoning--has opted for one side.

It might be possible that the 8pm curbside rule is meant to target some specific kind of nightlife or gatherings using it as a loophole, maybe culturally linked, so they don’t want to say it explicitly. It doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense otherwise.

That's how I understand it as well. Maybe it's also a way to minimize the devil-may-care side effects of late night alcohol/drug use.

This is such a fucking dumb gamble, I'm honestly livid right now:

https://globalnews.ca/news/7576475/quebec-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-second-doses-90-days/

The WHO is against it and Pfizer-BioNTech threatened to withdraw their vaccine supply from Quebec if we don't follow the two-dose schedule yet they're going with their moronic gut feeling anyway.

I can't take this government anymore.

I couldn't before the pandemic. Now it's becoming irrational.

I'm the same, and there's nothing irrational about it! I cut Legault a fuckton of slack last year but his last few calls are indefensible given how poorly things are going. We're about to overtake France's no. of deaths/1M pop, ffs!

Fwiw my dad works in the healthcare sector and I think this dicey 90-day lag between doses just broke him.

Why would they do this? Just bc they can give out first doses to more people this way?

Yes, except it's not much of a mid- to long-term plan for the province. The feds are saying we shouldn't wait more than 42 days before administering the second dose. Legault wants more than double that, with precious little to back him up.

I do not share any of the outrage about this! Loads of epidemiologists and virologists agree that "first doses first" might be the best plan, and Biden (and the UK) have both advanced similar proposals. Basically, there is disagreement in the scientific community. Accordingly, I am comfortable with elected government making informed choices. I think I agree with them that generalized immunity for more people is more important than total immunity for a smaller population at this point.

Pfizer-BioNTech did not "threaten" the government - Legault was asked what he would do if they made a threat like that and he said of course the government would comply.

My wording was indeed off. This is what I was referring to:

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/pfizer-could-withdraw-vaccine-supply-from-quebec-if-two-dose-schedule-not-followed-legault-1.5262256

Anyhow, suit yourself. It goes without saying that I am not a medical expert myself, but I will continue to trust my dad, an infectious diseases specialist, in this matter. Perhaps the government's little experiment will pay off, perhaps it will backfire. Time will tell. Either way, we are essentially being used as guinea pigs right now, and it's not something I am at all comfortable with seeing as official recommendations are being flouted.

Canada's National Advisory Committee believes that the second dose can be delayed for up to six weeks:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-panel-ok-to-delay-second-dose-1.5871677

Between six weeks and 90 days, the difference is rather stark.

(The UK's doing 12 weeks too.)

Just some more perspective on the amount of debate:

Will delay of the 2nd dose of vaccines promote virus resistance? https://t.co/aaTvv6ATIs @meredithwadman w/ @florian_krammer @PaulBieniasz @jbloom_lab @sarahcobey
Debated here, mostly likely no.
There's also a case for stronger immune response by delay, not discussed/studied pic.twitter.com/PEcXiChlIY

— Eric Topol (@EricTopol) January 14, 2021

Good for them? Their handling of the pandemic has been absolutely atrocious so far.

xp

Which vaccine are we talking about by the way?

Because this article (from yesterday) suggests that 'spacing out doses of the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine may be more effective at protecting people':

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/second-shots-of-covid-vaccine-could-be-delayed-further-in-england

That may well be true, but to my knowledge we haven't even approved that one yet.

See also (from last week):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/no-data-to-support-uk-delay-of-vaccines-second-dose-says-who

The plot thickens...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pfizer-temporarily-reducing-vaccine-deliveries-1.5874645

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/15/canada-ontario-doug-ford-lockdown-covid-19-toronto/

Ontario mess made the WaPo.

The stuff with Baber up in York is really bad news for Ford I think. That letter is reinforcing a lot of anti lockdown arguments that sound reasonable to a lot of people, notably from the c2c article that’s gone viral amongst conservatives lately. The false premises in it require too sophisticated a takedown to easily counter. Baber is being called a hero and a whistleblower. ffs. Ford’s original support is very fractured and a large portion has observably moved farther right, and while that could be an exploitable political weakness, I still find it ominous and upsetting.

I ran into a neighbour while out walking yesterday and asked him about my coffee question above. Which I know seems utterly insignificant, but, as I explained to him, it has next to nothing to do with coffee--obviously, I can make that at home. It’s much more about simply going in there; if you’re on your own during one of these lockdowns, many days that’ll be the only interaction you have with anyone that doesn’t take place on a computer screen. To that end, I thought his idea for what I should say if I ever got questioned was pretty sensible, seeing as “essential” has been deemed to vary from person to person: call it a mental-health issue.

Turns out be nothing anyway. The only two cops here come in from Stratford; they work out of the municipal building that’s a few dozen steps around the corner from Tim’s. There’s usually a car parked outside, so last night I just asked the guy. I don’t think he answered immediately--there was a slight pause, like he wasn’t sure either--but he said it was fine. Which means, for me, there’s no change at all that I can think of between now and what was already in place as of Boxing Day. And I don’t see that there will be, for me, until and unless schools reopen.

What do we make of Blanchet's comments on Alghabra? "His ties to the political Islamic movement raise questions" is vague and almost seems like innuendo, although I wonder if there's some context I'm missing.

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/01/15/nouveau-ministre-trudeau-qualifie-les-propos-du-chef-bloquiste-dinacceptables-1
https://globalnews.ca/news/7574235/bloc-quebecois-omar-alghabra-criticism/

On Twitter, he mostly also seems to be avoiding saying anything direct but shares articles like this, which, despite its, uh, questionable take, does at least specify what he might be taking issue with (the group's, acc to the author, anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian leanings and ostensible support of Hamas): https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/chroniques/593416/bonne-semaine-pour-l-islam

I wonder if there's some context I'm missing.

The context is dogwhistling. Blanchet is said to have taken his cue from 'Rebel News', as it's now called:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/2021-01-15/propos-sur-le-nouveau-ministre-omar-alghabra/blanchet-seme-l-intolerance-dit-trudeau.php

Really, though, it's just a racist procès d'intention and Lisée is now trying to put some flesh on it.

Huh, "Biden indicates plans to cancel Keystone XL pipeline permit on 1st day in office, sources confirm": https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/biden-keystone-xl-1.5877038

My wife's very happy about that.

i remember obama delaying it. good on biden

I’m very much an environmentalist, so ultimately feel like it’s the right move, but I do have concerns about the economic realities. I sometimes wonder if the average Canadian just thinks of the energy sector as just one of many similar big Canadian resources? Because I think I did, until I worked over a decade in banking - in a central admin centre. We had branches and large clients from coast to coast, but the small handful of Alberta transits, by quantity, a tiny fraction of all accounts nationally - in terms of actual dollars, they absolutely dwarfed everything else combined. It did change my perspective a bit.

yes, canada is a petro-state. it needs a kick in the arse to move away from it as it is a dying industry afaict

Along those lines, some good news (economic and environmental) out of Ingersoll they were talking about on the radio this morning.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/gm-canada-announces-tentative-deal-for-1-billion-electric-vehicle-plant-in-ontario-1.5269550

Good:

Racism has no place in the Conservative Party of Canada. My statement: pic.twitter.com/TP6uATWOi3

— Erin O'Toole (@erinotoole) January 18, 2021

good excuse for them to get rid of a headache, but I'll take it

Am I the only person in the country that thinks this is overblown? Like, how is someone supposed to vet every donation? This guy gave Sloan like $100, he’s supposed to have his people research every donation, recognize the name of this Nazi?

Maybe that’s a good idea, I don’t know, but is that kind of deep dive SOP?

I’m glad Sloan’s gone, he is a human cancer, but it feels like a weird scandal.

Can you even donate to an individual MP without it going through the party in the first place? I don't think there's a way for me to donate directly to Catherine McKenna or Joel Harden but not to the Liberals or NDP?

the donation was for sloan's leadership campaign

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/white-nationalist-donation-derek-sloan-1.5878070

sloan claims he had no idea who the guy was and is returning the money, but no denunciation of white supremacism in his statements either. there's a long history of denouncing and returning embarrassing political donations, and I agree politicians probably can't vet everything. O'Toole is just taking the opportunity to get rid of a headache.

It’s not that he accepted the donation. It’s that his specific policies attracted it.

definitely o’toole using a good opportunity. agreed it’s overblown, but part of the reason is that it’s the kind of thing that goes with the rest of what sloan represents. this is the guy who said he’d designate antifa as a terrorist group, after all.

the best part is that it’ll damage cpc as well, and deservingly so. they had many opportunities to get rid of sloan before.

in any case, i’ll celebrate derek finally getting what he deserved. too bad he blocked me on fb/twitter.

sloan is so disingenuous about the shit he propagates, justifying his antivax petition with the "any constituent can write a petition" defence. he's done and said a ton of things that merit getting the boot.

Oh I see, so the donation was given through the party but meant for Sloan's leadership campaign per se and, even while the party did take a cut, the issue is that Sloan attracted that element in the first place?

seems like you can give up to $1500 directly to a leadership contestant (but yeah the conservatives took a 10% cut). and you can give to electoral district associations or party-endorsed candidates, not just to parties.

https://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=res&dir=ces&document=part6&lang=e

Reportedly a glitch in the reporting, but cases do seem to be coming down. In London, their 5-day average is down ~35%.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-january-19-2021-vaccine-update-1.5878789

lol, why do Canadians do this?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsMp0HAXMAE0EwX?format=png&name=240x240

Annoying, but I accept it. Vague moral superiority is pretty gentle as far as nationalism goes. If we don’t have social cohesion, we lose our social programs.

Oh hey,

Not sure this should have been the event that triggered it, but Sloan is booted. Well deserved.

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2021/01/20/conservatives-mps-eject-derek-sloan-in-a-secret-ballot-vote.html

I'm not really up on this guy, so yes, you guessed it, first reaction: "Huh? Far from great, but a couple of songs weren't bad."

it's nice to see o'toole jumping on this so quickly and decisively - harper would've likely doubled down in a similar scenario,
but i have a feeling this will be seen as a weakness by his caucus.

Yeah I'm underwhelmed by how O'Toole demanded that his caucus had to "coax me" into ejecting Sloan

poorly formed joeks aside, I thought this Andrew Coyne article was excellent:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-conservatives-have-a-hypocrisy-problem-that-goes-beyond-derek/

"Derek Sloan is right. It is hypocritical for the Conservative Party to kick him out of caucus for unwittingly accepting a donation from the notorious neo-Nazi – and party member – Paul Fromm, when the party had done the same. Like Mr. Sloan, the party failed to screen out either Mr. Fromm’s donation or membership application – forgivably, perhaps, as he gave his name as Frederick P. Fromm. But only Mr. Sloan is paying the price for it.

Not that he deserves any better. There are worse things than hypocrisy, and one of them is the party’s willingness to tolerate Mr. Sloan’s presence in caucus as long as it has. If Mr. Sloan is being scapegoated in the present case, he had already earned his ticket out of caucus several times over: for suggesting homosexuality was a choice, for insinuating that Canada’s Chief Public Health Officer, Theresa Tam, was in the pay of the Chinese government, for other public statements that were at best reckless and at worst outright bigoted."

From that article (which was very good indeed):

Is it any wonder that more than 40 per cent of Conservative voters, according to a Leger poll, would have voted for Donald Trump in the recent election? Or that a similar number believe he actually won?

Err, really? That's worse than I thought.

I guess it's only 40% of 30% of all Canadian voters, if you want to look at the glass as being 12% full

this is a minor thing but i'm curious: i wonder what happens to sloan's blue check twitter account now, since it's got "cpc" in the name.
does he lose the right to use it?

Sloan is paying the price for everything he's done wrong, obv.

I'd say he lost California but he was actually a student union president down there. Hunh.

lol sund4r

lol

It’s not real until he does his time

And it's official: https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/biden-revokes-keystone-xl-permit-in-blow-to-canada-s-oil-sector-1.5275343

kenney big mad

Kenney says if the U.S. administration refuses to discuss Keystone, the Canadian government must impose trade and economic sanctions, he says. "Not doing so would create a dangerous precedent," Kenney says. #ableg

— Janet French (@Jantafrench) January 20, 2021

hard to see any downsides to that plan

Tough guy

Not sure I completely understand this: https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/man-freezes-to-death-steps-from-montreal-shelter-after-public-health-makes-beds-off-limits-1.5271305

Why does a curfew mean that homeless shelters need to close? If anything, wouldn't it keep people from being out and violating the curfew if they could be inside a shelter at night?

Watch your back, pom. You've got some real polyglot competition now:

No matter what language you speak — or in my case try to — all of us need to stay home.

Stay home. Stay safe. Save lives. pic.twitter.com/zy3qeqUA43

— Doug Ford (@fordnation) January 21, 2021

I had to listen back to the Tamil one a couple of times to work out what words he was even trying to say.

Hahaha, that's genuinely amazing. No Romanian, though – tsk, tsk.

I know it's all PR, but it saddens me to think that Legault would never so much as consider doing such a video.

Oh wow, haha

Damn, that was quick:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/governor-general-payette-step-down-1.5882675

At the beginning of her mandate, sources said, Payette also put staff on the spot by quizzing them about outer space — asking them to name all the planets in the solar system, for example, or to state the distance between the sun and the moon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rideau-hall-governor-general-payette-1.5861952

she sounds like a real scumbag

The outer space pop quizzes cracked me up ("what? This is how we build morale at CSA!") but, yeah, sounds nasty otherwise.

That’s a lot like what our 5th grader thinks is good conversation.

Heh. Guess Payette never outgrew the little kid who wanted to become an astronaut.

How many people lost their jobs because of Pluto?

xps Not quick as the same anecdotes were reported in July: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-governor-general-harassment-allegations-1.5657397

Then they decided to do this formal look at it and she resigns the day it's published... it's wild of her to say "Tensions have arisen at Rideau Hall over the past few months and for that, I am sorry."

Wonder if we can get any traction on getting rid of this job. Let's write the queen and inquire?

when prince charles comes in it's time to pull the plug imo

There doesnt seem to be any appetite for republicanism. Charles will be a relatively short reign follower by the popular William

Payette's statement is almost incredibly unapologetic: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/julie-payette-full-statement-governor-general-resignation-rideau-hall-1.5882916

Mario Dumont made the point that Payette was basically acting like a queen: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/01/22/julie-payette-cetait-pire-quon-pensait
which made me recall something Elizabeth Bruenig said about how no one, including avowed monarchists, wants an actual monarchy anymore.

Someone should point that out to those goofs down below, who were, as a friend said, chanting “1776!” while trying to install a king.

Wait, was an election declared??

I got into politics to make a difference and to build a stronger, cleaner and more inclusive future for our kids and grandkids.

I'm excited to be running again to represent the residents of #OttawaCentre. We have an amazing community and there is a lot more we can do together! pic.twitter.com/w725jJEDnS

— Catherine McKenna (@cathmckenna) January 23, 2021

Under 2,000 cases in Ontario today, only the second time since Dec. 28.

(On the other hand, sitting in a coffee shop, looking up at the TV, and being alarmed that we were headed for 500 cases in a day doesn't seem all that long ago.)

Further to sund4r’s post about possible election drop oops there - just saw what was basically an election attack ad on tv from this organization (whoever they are) https://mobile.twitter.com/worsttimeotoole

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-reports-fewest-number-of-new-covid-19-cases-in-two-months-1.5284075

Under 1,700 today. I don't know if the rate of decline is commensurate with the lockdown/stay-at-home measures--maybe they expected to be lower by now--but encouraging nonetheless.

I missed that but the Proud Boys are now listed as a terrorist group in Canada!

Have they designated Nickleback as anything?

We're now at less than 1000 new cases a day in Quebec, which is incredible. If it lasts, I hope to be proven wrong about the viability of re-opening schools.

When were high schools re-opened again?

Jan 18, so it's already been two weeks.

But yeah of course it works, it's winter, there's a curfew, everything is closed (except schools really).

They're gonna roll back some of the restrictions en région so we'll see where that goes.

This, on the other hand, does not inspire confidence:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/vaccine-eu-export-controls-assurances-1.5896223

Ugh. The only upside?? is that the blame Trudeau crowd seem to have come completely around from “this vaccine can’t be trusted/omg they want to force us to take it against our will/conspiracy!!!” to “Where my vaccines at JUSTIN?!”

we want our Bill Gates microchips now dammit!

I hear some of them got recalled already.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/02/americas/canada-coronavirus-vaccines/index.html

Not sure if that's good or bad on balance.

Bad for the short-term, good for the long-term, I'm guessing.

Feb. 8 for most Ontario schools, Feb. 16 for Toronto/Peel/York.

Mixed feelings for me. I'm really anxious to get back to supplying--going stir-crazy--but the last day I was in a classroom, just before Christmas, there were no cases in my school (they had a couple just after that), and no variants. So after reaching a point where I wasn't nervous at all, a bit of that has returned.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/lecce-schools-southern-ontario-reopening-announcement-1.5898328

Just noticed this: "Temporary certification of eligible teacher candidates who are set to graduate in 2021 to stabilize staffing levels, following high levels of absenteeism."

The usual, I'm guessing: here's this new thing, sort it out yourself.

Ottawa schools have reopened already.

Seeing this this morning kind of depressed me:

NEW --> The U.S. is on pace to vaccinate 75% of its population against Covid-19 this year, while Canada would need almost a decade to reach that coverage level, according to Bloomberg’s Covid-19 Vaccine Trackerhttps://t.co/jxLYwJTJiW @TimLoh @business pic.twitter.com/31IL38tnyy

— David S. Joachim (@davidjoachim) February 4, 2021

I mean, obviously the pace of vaccination is going to increase a lot throughout the year, but we are lagging far behind many countries

It's really sad, yeah. I was complaining about this in another thread, but I have no idea when my parents (over-65s) will get their shots. Meanwhile, their friends back in Romania have all been vaccinated already.

Same; this plus Real Winter has got me pretty bummed out

Man, that chart is some irresponsible reporting.

I've actually been enjoying this winter because I've had no choice but to overcome my phobia of running in sub-zero temperatures and because last year I was in England, whose bland, maddeningly consistent weather all year round drove me up the wall.

This is a good winter! Not too cold, a lot of snow on the ground but not constantly snowing.

ffs

https://www.cp24.com/news/moderna-expected-to-scale-back-covid-19-vaccine-shipment-to-canada-once-again-document-1.5295457

I just get inevitable SAD in February. I know it's sunny as hell in Montreal today and not even that cold -- it's the (~6 months of) lack of colour that gets me.

English winter is psychologically debilitating, I do agree with that.

I really like the kind of -5 to 0 C range we're in right now in Ottawa. The -12 weeks are what get me.

Man, that chart is some irresponsible reporting.
― jmm

Can you expand on this? That was always a big topic when teaching data to kids--to be careful of misleading graphs--so I'm interested in this. Is it the scale you're talking about?

Yeah, the title being "Long Wait" and the scale going up to "10 years", as though readers won't equate the two.

I guess it's misleading in the sense that it seems to imply it will actually take Canada 10 years to vaccinate 75% of the population, but it says pretty clearly that it is about "current vaccination rates" and that is what is actually being compared and it is just showing the numbers in a way that is easier to process (i.e. at the current rate, this is how long it will take to achieve herd immunity). I guess the title being "Long Wait" is irresponsible.

Walking in the woods is the only thing keeping me sane. There is a definite change in the air these past few days, and even though it’s still cold, the sun is that little bit stronger, the birds are active, and you can feel the season changing. It’s a definite mood booster.

I’m kind of at a loss with seemingly everyone (not u peeps) complaining about every single thing. Most of them all contracting each other too. I mean, I’m not happy we’re behind on vaccines either, but I’ll still be surprised if we don’t get them soon. Not really sure what it is Trudeau should have done differently. Without existing capacities (that are being brought back? but it will take time), making deals seems the best gamble - and was he supposed to have locked us in bigger or sooner on vaccines that didn’t exist yet? Putting more eggs in one basket might have been faster IF we got lucky, but that would have been a huge risk. Diversifying and yeah maybe being further back because of it, is probably still the most reliable strategy. I guess we’ll see. Just having a hard time with all the anger all the time.

contracting should be contradicting

The criticisms on lack of transparency have some validity of course, but in practice, in an environment where information just tends to get weaponized instead of being used constructively, it’s gonna happen.

Yeah, I'm not sure if the current govt made some kind of foreseeable error here or if we're just unlucky.

Maybe it’s just tied up in being such a resource driven economy where we are usually prosperous enough that our super reliance on finished things being imported usually runs silent, but a global emergency where all of our suppliers at once are forced to look after their own needs, or the needs of more “persuasive” powers first, exposes our vulnerability. It was always a gamble. Since we didn’t proactively think it worth compromising a bit of prosperity to be prepared, having patience may just be our lot.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/443061/number-of-deaths-in-canada/

So now that it’s February, I was expecting to see this in the news but didn’t, so was poking about for the Canadian mortality stats of last year. If you look at the graph view, it’s pretty surprising that on paper, it looks like a fairly average year. The death rate is actually only very slightly out of line with the normal increase. It’s true w covid, there are detriments beyond deaths, but still. in context it looks like we did pretty well? Exact numbers on excess deaths are also available from stats can up until October or so, and it looks like it was really only in April and May that we had any extra death numbers in the hundreds. Have to assume that also spikes post Xmas, but couldn’t find stats on that yet.

I haven't seen anything for Canada overall, but for Quebec, mortality rate is up 10% for 2020:

https://www.cp24.com/news/number-of-deaths-jumped-10-per-cent-in-quebec-in-2020-due-to-covid-19-agency-reports-1.5286166

normally, the rate from year to year is around 2%, so this is a big jump

Imagine if we hadn't gone into lockdown, enforced face masks & physical distancing, etc.

Yeah, here’s the equivalent chart for Quebec only

https://www.statista.com/statistics/568022/number-of-deaths-in-quebec-canada/

It’s listing about 2k less deaths than that cp24 link, but it may be incomplete. Definitely does show a larger deviation than Canada as a whole.

NEW --> The U.S. is on pace to vaccinate 75% of its population against Covid-19 this year, while Canada would need almost a decade to reach that coverage level, according to Bloomberg’s Covid-19 Vaccine Trackerhttps://t.co/jxLYwJTJiW @TimLoh @business pic.twitter.com/31IL38tnyy
— David S. Joachim (@davidjoachim) February 4, 2021
I mean, obviously the pace of vaccination is going to increase a lot throughout the year, but we are lagging far behind many countries

― silverfish, Thursday, February 4, 2021 9:22 AM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Man, that chart is some irresponsible reporting.
― jmm

Can you expand on this? That was always a big topic when teaching data to kids--to be careful of misleading graphs--so I'm interested in this. Is it the scale you're talking about?

― clemenza, Thursday, February 4, 2021 10:53 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

they made a chart a few weeks ago showing the same thing for the US using a linear extrapolation of vaccination rates at the time. linear extrapolation based on current vaccination makes no sense. if you look at the supply and contracts, it has been clear for months that canada would be slow to start up due to the timing of big contracts, and actually it had been a little bit faster than anticipated until the last week. hopefully the slow downs in moderna and pfizer are temporary (so far they mostly have to do with pauses in production to scale up capacity at plants, which should be good for long term supply). also we have a big purchase of astrazeneca coming up in april that would make mass vaccination of the general population this spring/summer feasible, but we haven’t approved that vaccine yet fsr

the province (BC) says im (late 30s healthy person) likely to be vacc'd in september, which seems realistic?

you’re in August iirc. that timetable is assuming we never get or approve the AstraZeneca vaccine though. it’s purely based on Moderna and Pfizer

it would be extremely annoying if americans get summer 2020 return to normal and we don’t lol

otfm tbh

2021* lol

honestly last summer in bc was p chill

...even though it’s still cold, the sun is that little bit stronger, the birds are active, and you can feel the season changing. It’s a definite mood booster.

Makes all the difference in the world, the sun. It's colder than ever right now, and I know there's still two more months of winter minimum, but walking after 5:00, with an extra hour of light, has been much more enjoyable for me.

after writing that post I went for a walk and I might actually have gotten a mild sunburn lol

this guy: https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy8edm/celina-caeasar-chavannes-justin-trudeau-fake

We're now at sub-1000 new cases per day in Quebec, and ICU data is increasingly more encouraging as well. Looks like re-opening schools didn't have as catastrophic an effect as I'd initially thought, and I'm very happy to be proven wrong on this count. Hopefully the vaccination campaign will pick up some steam in the coming weeks.

Non-essential stores, hair salons and the like are all back in business. CEGEPs and universities will also be welcoming students and staff on campus again, so I'm very curious to see whether this'll pan out.

All of that happens here on the 16th for most of the province, and on the 22nd for Toronto/Peel/York. As I posted on one of the general COVID threads last night, I'm not optimistic (and I usually am, more or less). It's these variants that give me pause. I have to think they're more prevalent than we know right now, so my guess is that they're outracing the vaccinations, and that'll be clear in a few weeks. Ontario is almost back under 1,000 cases today, so I don't know. There three stories going on at once--dropping cases, vaccinations, variants--and they're not in sync.

Alberta has taken an unusually structured approach to reopening, as opposed to their usual freewheeling (flailing), in that there are specific targets that must be achieved before the next phase is “unlocked”.

But true to form, instead of structuring the reopening based on likelihood of transmission, they have seemingly structured it based on.... I dunno

Phase 1: restaurants and bars, kids’ sports, gyms

Phase 2: hotels, conference centres, banquet halls

Phase 3: adult sports, casinos, churches, movie theatres & auditoria, social gatherings

Phase 4: concerts & festivals, funerals, sporting events, trade shows, weddings, and lifting of work-from-home mandate.

Having gone to a few movies this past summer, I'd move those up the list. I don't think I went to one, out of about a dozen, where there were more than 5-10 people in the theatre; for half, there was me plus one other person or couple. (Sounds counterintuitive, I know--it's safe because everybody thinks it's dangerous.)

I would change almost everything about this plan. But I’m not in charge, and one of the best things I’ve done for my mental health during this pandemic has been absolving myself of the self-imposed responsibility to become an expert in infectious disease & public policy and come up with a BETTER PLAN that I have no ability to influence or implement.

Well said

In Huron-Perth, we start in the orange zone on Tuesday. Meaning I can sit in and drink coffee. Meaning I can read books again. (The two are close to inseparable for me.)

I pray this is it. Please. Please.

Newfoundland back in the covid game! What'd we miss? Do i wear two masks now?

ay fuck it's UK covid plus

The South African variant made it all the way to Abitibi-Témiscamingue, so yeah... nowhere is safe.

Just got to refresh on safeguards. We had mandatory masks indoors and that but...yup

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/variants-lifting-restrictions-second-opinion-1.5912760

A third lockdown would be so dispiriting. Not lifting this one for another two months would be too. No answer.

Took my book over to Tim Hortons tonight, expecting I'd be able to sit in--we reopened in orange, one active case. Still takeout only, with seemingly no sit-in imminent. I was surprised.

It was so nice to be able to go to a bookstore this afternoon. This lockdown was tough.

Oooooof: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-campus-free-speech-academic-freedom-legault-1.5917113

Grateful to this piece for alerting me to this though:

But, he said, the main threats to academic freedom involve corporations trying to suppress research, and beyond that, the way the government allots funding to universities in the province.

Because their funding is based on the number of students enrolled, he said, administrators are afraid of siding against students when disputes with faculty arise.

The groundwork for this system, he pointed out, was laid by Legault himself. As education minister in the late 1990s, he made university funding contingent on meeting certain performance indicators.

Good catch, yeah.

We'll have to see what they actually do but, tentatively, I tend to agree with Portugais that the problems Legault mentions are real but are far from the only, or the biggest, threats to academic freedom. (Incidentally, the one time I had a serious run-in wrt academic freedom and was required to accommodate a censorious student - at U0tt4wa no less - it was due to a complaint from a conservative Christian student. Cancel culture is not limited to radicals on one side of the aisle.) I'm not sure this is widely accepted btw:

It's widely accepted that scholars should be able to debate ideas without fear of repercussion from the powerful, or the popular.

Perhaps there's a necessary discussion to be had about threats to academic freedom in Canada. But as you and Portugais say, the scope goes beyond PC-gone-mad narratives and centring the n-word at the heart of the complaint is at best a strategic mistake, to put it mildly.

We especially can't have that conversation via this government, who tried to ban stores from saying "bonjour-hi" (and while they didn't pass a law, IME there has been a noticeable chilling effect on its use), passed Bill 21, perpetuates and seeks to expand the literal policing of language use, and currently will issue me a hefty fine if I walk outside after 8pm. Notably this govt more or less refuses to admit the mere presence of racism in Quebecois society. It's absurd or at best naive to take seriously the idea that the CAQ cares about academic freedom in any material sense, or they might have mentioned it before "academic freedom" became reduced to "having the right to articulate the n-word rather than use a common euphemism."

Also it's galling that they're accusing students of importing ideologies from the US, when this calculated distraction is directly copied from conservatives in US, ROCanadian, UK, and French culture war campaigns, right down to adopting the exact tactic of accusing people of importing foreign ideas. Which, hilariously, forms a kind of circle, since American conservatives have made Marcuse and Adorno the poster children of bad student ideology. I can't have a conversation about academic freedom when the other side (not you ofc Sund4r, I mean Legault) is blatantly insulting my intelligence.

How did Legault feel about Michael Potter, incidentally?: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macleans.ca/news/canada/why-andrew-potter-lost-his-dream-job-at-mcgill/amp/

xp
I mean, am I just paranoid for assuming this is where Legault would like to end up?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/world/europe/france-universities-culture-wars.html

Stepping up its attacks on social science theories that it says threaten France, the French government announced this week that it would launch an investigation into academic research that it says feeds “Islamo-leftist’’ tendencies that “corrupt society.’’

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-premier-lashes-out-at-maclean-s-for-suggesting-province-is-in-state-of-serious-dysfunction-1.4034456

The head of the Coalition Avenir Québec, François Legault, called Potter's piece a "rag" based on "shortcuts."

Or JJ McCullough xps: https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/quebec-legislature-votes-to-condemn-article-that-bashed-province-as-racist-1.3276962

well remembered, the hypocrisy is suffocating

Very much agree with you, rob, there is every reason to be suspicious of this government's motives.

I don't find talk of 'language policing' useful, however. Bill 101 exists for a reason, and I wish anglophones would fully understand the privilege of being a native speaker of an international lingua franca. Francophones are far likelier to learn English than the opposite – because English means cultural and economic power – and this results in alienating scenarios such as my wife, a native French speaker with a limited command of English, having to bumble her way through conversations with anglophones who have never made the slightest effort to accommodate her. In Quebec. So it's important to note that the 'language policing' has a history and it's there to ensure that this tiny redoubt of French speakers is able to maintain its difference on an overwhelmingly anglophone continent.

The fact that French almost never makes its way onto this thread is also quite telling, but so it goes.

Point well taken, pomenitul, and ftr I'm not against Bill 101, and I do try to be humble about being an immigrant to this country and culture (not always successfully of course). To make my point with hopefully more grace: I would like to think that in the QC context, nuanced sensitivity about the politics and cultural implications of language would be heightened and suitably complex, not reduced to "free speech" platitudes that are applied with suspicious selectivity.

The fact that French almost never makes its way onto this thread is also quite telling, but so it goes.

ah but you see we have a separate province for such things ;)

I would like to think that in the QC context, nuanced sensitivity about the politics and cultural implications of language would be heightened and suitably complex, not reduced to "free speech" platitudes that are applied with suspicious selectivity.

Alas, papa Legault – whose vocabulary is about as limited as Trump's btw – is incapable of complex discourse. The fact that he's bound to walk the next election is nightmarish and I can only take comfort in knowing that the majority of Montrealers didn't vote for this shit.

And lol, it's true, ILX enacted the separatist dream when the province itself could not.

One more thing: the panic around 'bonjour-hi' was utterly moronic and, I think, yet another way of winning non-Montrealers' hearts, as though it were necessary to begin with.

the bonjour-hi thing really bummed me out (I used to mention the phrase to Americans as an example of how Montreal could be a welcoming and courteous place), but then we got the gift of "bonjour-ho" so maybe it's a wash?

It was adopted by a 112-0 margin.

guess they struck a nerve, lol

Alas, papa Legault – whose vocabulary is about as limited as Trump's btw – is incapable of complex discourse. The fact that he's bound to walk the next election is nightmarish and I can only take comfort in knowing that the majority of Montrealers didn't vote for this shit.

Ontario obviously blows but man I really do not miss trying to figure out if it's even possible to ever unfuck QC politics

Francophones are conditioned to expect French bashing from anglophones so it's hard to take such criticism seriously even when it is justified – it's a Boy Who Cried Wolf-type scenario. The general lack of mea culpas on English Canada's part regarding Quebec's schizophrenic condition is also a problem. It seems to me that anglophones tend to assume that francophones were equal partners throughout the entirety of Canada's history whereas ime francophones tend to overstate the ills that they suffered (Pierre Vallières's famous 1968 essay, whose title I'll let you google, is a perfect encapsulation of this). From my perspective as an allophone, the truth is somewhere in the middle…

(xp)

Basically the Hundred Years' War never ended and expanded to the so-called New World is what I'm saying.

On that note, also in today's news: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/liberals-proposed-language-reforms-seek-equality-of-english-and-french-in-canada

no way is that lady 42 years old

Good. Overhauling immersion teaching methods would probably help as well. Everyone I know who's ever tried it is still unable to hold a basic conversation in French although most of that boils down to working in a 100% anglophone setting and having a 100% anglophone partner who also works in a 100% anglophone setting. The classic Montreal rule also applies: 'when nine bilinguals work with one monolingual anglophone, English prevails ten times out of ten'. No one would ever dare do this in France, and you know what? Anglophones who've lived in Paris for a while usually emerge with decent French skills, and they're all the happier for it. Win-win!

*emerge from it

(I can hold a conversation in French.)

You most certainly can! I forgot you'd done French immersion, but then again, you've gone much further than that, which makes a huge difference.

Re: Legault and 'free speech' on campuses. In France, the minister of higher ed has recently requested an inquiry into the supposed 'islamo-gauchisme' – the French equivalent of 'postmodern marxism' – that is 'plaguing' French universities, so the CAQ's response is tepid stuff in comparison. Polls show that 6/10 French people believe this to be a very real problem. 🤦

At one point Pom I’m going to ask what else the ROC can do to help Quebec. The federal government re-wrote the consitution and Levesque wanted to use it as bargaining tool, they had not one but two referendums on the souveraineté question (thats a lot even per western standards), Quebec has control over parts of immigration, most of education and most of culture, civil law needs to be represented on the supreme court, so does the french language, etc etc.

The same way I am not going to care the slightest if a Thai immigrant doesn’t care about Quebec culture that has just ignored him/her for many generations, I fail to see how anglo-canadians would in the slightest be interested in a culture in which Quebec made it a sacrament to ignore them at best, hate them at worst.

I wish the maritimes, or FNIM, or heck even ~~poor people~~ had even a quarter of Quebec’s attention and power over canadian affairs (I write this passing Sir Georges-Etienne Cartier statue).

But mostlg I am just so tired of people in Quebec using their history to shield themselves against accusations of racism. By any historical or geographical metric, Quebec has had it pretty good.

I'm at the point where I actually think sovereignty would be a good thing, as it would clarify matters. No sense in staying together for the kids if you hate each other's guts. Except, of course, the divorce never came to fruition, as you rightly point out, and so the marital farce continues. Quebec brought this on itself, yes – twice.

I am just so tired of people in Quebec using their history to shield themselves against accusations of racism

100% with you on this.

Imagine massively contributing to one of the largest colonial experiments in history and claiming to be a victim of colonialism, and using that to silence actual victims of colonialism.

That's a bit simplistic, don't you think?

I think that’s the M.O of conservatism in Quebec. I don’t think it represents the entire Quebec population/culture, thank god, we have an incredible amount of open minded people here.

French Canadians did have a rough time of it for two centuries, and that deserves to be underscored (see, for instance, the openly racist Durham Report followed by the Act of Union 1840 and the oppression of francophone proles at the hands of capitalist anglophone elites up until the 1970s, which occurred along ethnic and religious lines, not to mention the legacy of 'speak white'). Does this compare to the suffering endured by other, primarily visible minorities in this country? Absolutely not, no. But I don't think we can pretend it never happened, which is the most common anglophone stance ime.

The way history is exploited by Quebec conservatives is disgusting, however, and does greatly undermine the credibility of such arguments. It doesn't have to be like this, though, which is probably a naïve belief on my part.

For me, French immersion was effective in making French feel like a burden and a requirement, and not very effective in conveying the joy of speaking a second language. When French is the language of school, you kind of want to get away from it as much as possible. I had to find my own motivation later in life to (re)learn the French I know.

That's also something that, perhaps understandably, doesn't seem to enter into language policy. From the way that language policies are framed, enforced, and fought over, you wouldn't necessarily recognize that languages are amazing and we should want to be multilingual for its own sake.

yeah I think that concept is really hard for children to understand, which is unfortunate because they are at the best age to pick up a second language

I hear you on that.

As a freshly arrived immigrant kid, picking up French was easy because both my parents already spoke it and my mother tongue is a Romance language. I had no linguistic preference up until my teens, at which point English struck me as so much cooler in every way, if only because it felt transgressive in a chiefly francophone context. The music I listened to, the films and TV shows I watched, the video games I played, the awesome shit I saw on the internet were all in (mostly American) English and, increasingly, my friends were anglophones as well. The one exception was reading and writing, which I found more pleasant in French.

After high school, I decided to go to an anglophone college, and I continued down that path for a good while, since I also opted for an anglophone university. Halfway through my BA, however, I began taking classes in French again because I felt like something was missing – anglophone perspectives had become a bit too monolithic in my worldview, incidentally crowding out Romanian as well. I moved to France for my MA, and that reconciled me with francophone culture for good, since it forced me to live and think entirely in French, with almost no exceptions. For me, at least (and this ties into what you were saying, jmm), French is a source of diversity, just as I value English and Romanian for providing me with equally different takes on the world, which aren't always reconcilable. I like being able to juggle between them, even though this has also been a source of alienation at times in that I often feel the need to defend whichever culture is being dissed by the other camp.

For me, French immersion was effective in making French feel like a burden and a requirement, and not very effective in conveying the joy of speaking a second language. When French is the language of school, you kind of want to get away from it as much as possible.

this was absolutely my experience going to an Acadian school for elementary!

If French isn't your mother tongue and both your parents aren't francophones and you have access to English, the latter will win out every time. Sometimes even when all the aforementioned conditions are met. We're all intuitively drawn to the idiom of privilege.

yup. having only one francophone parent did not suffice.

I don't have kids and probably never will but if it does happen some day, I'm fairly certain that they'd never learn Romanian even if I were to insist on it. If my wife were Romanian, I assume they'd pick up enough to understand it, but they wouldn't speak it. I myself probably wouldn't if I'd been born in Canada.

I went to French Immersion classes from Senior Kindergarten to Grade 3, and I have no idea how I managed it. I really don't have any memories of speaking it at that time.
I read and listen to French, but I'd have to do so much studying to express myself as precisely as I want to do, there's no way it would be worth it. I'm not even sure I express myself as lucidly in English as I intend.

...and English is my first language.

I'm at the point where I actually think sovereignty would be a good thing, as it would clarify matters. No sense in staying together for the kids if you hate each other's guts.

Let's not lose sight that the context for this discussion is a federal PM and Minister, themselves both French speakers from Quebec, announcing programs to promote the French language in Canada.

What do you think 'clarification ' would consist of in practice? Who do you think would benefit?

It’s not a rational stance, I’m just sick of hearing my parents fight.

More seriously, if you're curious about what a left-wing pro-sovereignist position looks like, check out section 11 of Québec Solidaire's program:

https://api-wp.quebecsolidaire.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/18-01958-qs2018_programme-politique_f.pdf

And tbc in the event of another referendum on Quebec's independence, merely thinking two seconds about the hardcore sovereignists I know and how much they loooove immigrants would be enough to push me towards 'non merci'.

To be fair to anyone who did immersion, french is freaking hard.

Learning a foreign language is hard, period, but French is among the easier ones, especially for native English speakers:

https://effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty/

On the other hand, I don't know how many times I've heard english speakers say they don't want to sound stupid when they speak french because they haven't mastered it yet and part of it is just privilege, because that's how most of the world's feels when they switch to english.

otm

I understand that about non-English speakers and empathize.

I don't think it's fair to go to a non-anglophone country and expect them to speak English.

French Canadians did have a rough time of it for two centuries, and that deserves to be underscored (see, for instance, the openly racist Durham Report followed by the Act of Union 1840 and the oppression of francophone proles at the hands of capitalist anglophone elites up until the 1970s, which occurred along ethnic and religious lines, not to mention the legacy of 'speak white'). Does this compare to the suffering endured by other, primarily visible minorities in this country? Absolutely not, no. But I don't think we can pretend it never happened, which is the most common anglophone stance ime.

― pomenitul, Friday, February 19, 2021 11:28 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Everyone had a rough time. Francophones especially so because they abdicated all power to the catholic clergy.

That was a self-own, no doubt about it. The rest tho? Nah.

We’ll debate this in Franglais over a sour beer when the time comes.

I don't think it's fair to go to a non-anglophone country and expect them to speak English.

― Halfway there but for you, Friday, February 19, 2021 4:24 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I can make some mental exceptions! I don't know how many english speakers are in Montreal for a limited period of time, but it must be a substantial amount. It is okay if someone is coming to Montreal for work purposes for two years and doesn't end up an expert of Gabrielle Roy's literature, same for students, who end up doing part time jobs and screamed at because they aren't fluent, which is ridiculous and not at all inviting imo.

I'm mostly on your side but

I don't know how many times I've heard english speakers say they don't want to sound stupid when they speak french because they haven't mastered it yet and part of it is just privilege, because that's how most of the world's feels when they switch to english.

vs

students, who end up doing part time jobs and screamed at because they aren't fluent,

Fwiw no monolingual anglo I know has ever gotten shit for not speaking French, except, like, once, ages ago. For a while I only spoke English because such was my wont and nobody took issue with it anywhere. That said, these things do happen, and were certainly common in the past, but they tend to be blown out of proportion imo. If anything, I’ve witnessed French people getting roasted over their accent more often.

But isn't that the issue? You don't get shit for speaking English but you might get shit (or, more likely, just get people switching to English with an eyeroll) if you speak French badly.

People love it when anglos try to speak French. They might not have the rest of the conversation in French, which is indeed a problem, but it’s always appreciated. You get corrected for minor mistakes in France, not here.

Usually the anglo learner will have to insist on continuing in French before people stop responding in English.

I’m totally guilty of this myself btw. As soon as I detect a whiff of English I switch to it straight away because I want to put my conversation partner at ease.

And only French people get shit for their ‘wrong’ French because Quebec suffers from a massive inferiority complex in this regard. It’s a family affair, though.

Oh we are going to have a new SCC judge.

I was gonna say, I was a front facing employee with shitty French for years and ppl cam be really fuckin mean about it

That sucks. Fuck those people.

I will say it didn't happen often but 1. most of our customers were anglo students and 2. some of us are very thin skinned!

The real problem is (white) people from France.

Some ultra-nationalists take it very personally, like ‘how fucking dare they besmirch French on my turf!’ (never mind that many of these morons have a very limited command of their own mother tongue). I will say, though, that on r/quebec, where I occasionally lurk, every time an anglophone musters up the courage to post a message in broken French, they are loudly applauded and prodded further down this path. There will usually be one dissenter who says some bullshit like ‘they’re just not trying hard enough!’ and they immediately get blasted and downvoted to oblivion. This is a relief insofar as r/quebec is mostly a den of Legault-leaning separatists (which is kind of incongruous, when you think about it).

On r/france, the dynamic is similar except people will make a point of correcting the foreigner – not to belittle them, but to help them improve. This almost never happens on r/quebec, which is a lot more politely Canadian than it believes itself to be.

xp

I've only been to montreal twice and one time an employee in the metro screamed at me in french for making a simple request in English (I had just paid using a machine but nothing had gone on the card). I ended up walking lol

What a fucking tool. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you speak English with a Scottish accent, right? That makes it even worse somehow. Like, what the fuck has Scotland got to do with your beef?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6b5f9n7E-0

lol, native French Canadian speakers have a much easier time with English pronunciation, there's no competition.

Like, it's true that Legault isn't particularly good at it, but this is still better than your average French person who thinks their English is halfway decent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX8_g2UMcts

Bonus with Jay Baruchel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiM2AzgWYL8

Ha, I haven't watched the videos yet but I had to ask the mother of a new student, who had just recently come from France, to repeat the name of the street she lived on a few times before I realized she was saying "Pinetrail".

After lessons, we went back and forth repeating "Merci/Bienvenue" for a while before I thought to say "Je vous en prie".

re: learning French in childhood - I am a bit disappointed by my experience of this. I had a Francophone parent with an enormous Franco-Albertan extended family, but all my dad passed down to me was being able to count in French. My parents nearly put me in French immersion, which I was excited about, but we moved before I started kindergarten and it was no longer an option. I couldn't wait to start French in school, which for most 'normal' schools starts in grade 4, imagining I'd finally be able understand conversations at family gatherings and feel connected to the French half of my 'background'... except that from grades 4 to 6 all we learned was vocabulary and really simple present-tense sentences. I was so fed up with the painfully slow pace of it that I stopped taking it after grade 7 when it was no longer mandatory.

For me, French immersion was effective in making French feel like a burden and a requirement, and not very effective in conveying the joy of speaking a second language.

This feels true for my non-immersion experience too, but then I don't really know how you'd go about making French joyful for 9 to 12 year olds.

I try not to be too annoyed about it - almost everyone I know who carried on taking French til grade 12 (which would get them up to B2 level) has forgotten all of it anyway - but I do wonder if daily exposure to French from an earlier age would've made it easier to re-learn as an adult. I can read most things now, and speak alright-ish (probably with an awkward accent though), but even after 12+ years of re-learning I still struggle to follow a film without subtitles or a podcast played at normal pace unless they're intended for children, which is frustrating although I guess not unexpected since I'm not immersed in the language.

What a fucking tool. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you speak English with a Scottish accent, right? That makes it even worse somehow. Like, what the fuck has Scotland got to do with your beef?

Haha, arguably, QC has more justifiable grounds to have beef with Great Britain than with Saskatchewan or New Brunswick.

I mean, of the things you mentioned, the Durham Report was obv written by a visit Brit and the Act of Union was an act of the UK Parliament. The oppression of working class francophones by capitalist anglophones up to the 70s surely had at least as much to do with anglophones in Quebec as with the ROC aiui.

*visiting

although I agree that it's more reasonable to expect native-born Canadians to know some French than immigrants from the UK and obv no one should be yelling at jim regardless

I mean, of the things you mentioned, the Durham Report was obv written by a visit Brit and the Act of Union was an act of the UK Parliament. The oppression of working class francophones by capitalist anglophones up to the 70s surely had at least as much to do with anglophones in Quebec as with the ROC aiui.

That is a very generous reading. On average, French Canadians were far more opposed to British rule than English Canadians, for obvious reasons. This was a land of Loyalists after all. Barring a few notable exceptions, I think it’s fair to say that English Canadians in 1840 cannot be simply dissociated from the views set forth in the Durham Report (cue Shaggy: ‘it wasn’t me!’), although it’s important to point out that the 1837 rebellions in Lower Canada, while chiefly spurred by francophone political leaders, also garnered support from noted members of the anglophone community (besides, Upper Canada followed suit). But I’m not sure I completely agree with your second point: is the historically Protestant British elite caste in Northern Ireland mainly evidence of intra-Irish conflict? To me, that’s putting the cart before the horse. The majority of Québécois anglophones identify as Canadians first and Québécois second (et encore…), hence their marked preference for federalist parties. I also think we’re losing sight of the fact that for the better part of Quebec’s history, its francophone population did everything within its power to affirm its cultural/political/religious/linguistic difference from the rest of Canada, which surely means something? The territory of present-day Quebec wasn’t peacefully co-opted into the federal dominion – France lost a war that it had no intention of losing, and New France suffered the consequences. That being said, and to echo VHS’s point upthread, we did have not one but *two* referenda in recent memory, both of which ended in ‘no’, although I do find it amusing to note that the feds pulled some dirty tricks to influence the result (my parents are among the immigrants who got fast-tracked for Canadian citizenship, just in time for the referendum since it was fairly obvious that almost none of us would end up in the ‘yes’ camp).

Also, sadlol #1 @ the fact that the only topic that yields nearly 100 new answers itt in less than 24h is Quebec separatism and sadlol #2 @ me playing devil’s advocate for an ideology that mostly hates me and my ilk. Anyway, separatism is very much on the wane and younger generations are especially indifferent towards it, which is interesting insofar as in 1995, the exact opposite was true iirc.

The topics were academic freedom and bilingualism tbf. I don't think most of the discussion was about separatism?

All roads lead to separatism!

To circle back to what kicked off this discussion, I am very curious to see whether other conservative premiers will imitate Legault and make a similarly hypocritical pledge to defend free speech on campus. It’s certainly been gaining traction in other parts of the so-called Western world:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/government-to-appoint-free-speech-champion-for-universities-heritage-history-cancel-culture

(But no, I'm not sure that a historical francophone grievance against English colonialism within Quebec does add up to a fair grievance against the RoC, much of which joined Confederation later and includes many populations who were themselves also victims of colonialism, including significant French-speaking communities, just as I don't really see disputes over how Quebecois federal leaders responded to Quebecois separatism as conflicts between Quebec and the RoC per se).

xp I think Ford has already said something?

Agree to disagree? I doubt I could sway you (or anyone else itt, for that matter).

Yeah of course, and I get that you're playing devil's advocate to a point, as you said.

I mentioned separatism because Quebec's conservatives wrap themselves in the flag of Quebec to criticize anything that might upset the status quo when it comes to race relations.

What do we think of this case?

https://www.macleans.ca/news/the-joke-that-went-to-the-supreme-court/

Based on the article, which is the first I've heard of it, I'd tentatively lean towards "very bad taste but probably shouldn't be illegal".

I watched the original comedy bit here and it doesn't seem to me like it should be actionable: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2vxsn1
Seems p obvious that the comic is being goofy imo, although yeah it's not nice to make fun of a kid. Idk if he came back to it later in a harsher way.

In 2016, the tribunal found the effect of Ward’s comments—no matter their intent, since good intent is not a defence in human rights law—was to ostracize Gabriel and infringe on his rights to dignity and honour. It ordered Ward to pay $25,000 in moral damages and $10,000 in punitive damages to Gabriel, plus $7,000 to his mother. “Ward recognizes that he does not concern himself with the feelings of the victims and their families when he writes jokes,” the decision states. “The Tribunal is convinced that Ward could not have been oblivious of the consequences of his jokes on Jérémy.”

Yeah this standard that intent doesn't matter, only impact, seems bizarre to me. Shouldn't the kids who bullied Jeremy be the responsible ones?

also is there an anglo equivalent to the "Association des professionnels de l’industrie de l’humour"

y'all have "moral damages" huh?

Gabriel made a point years back that I think I agree with in that laughing at a collective ‘i.e the disabled’ is not the same as laughing at an individual ‘i.e Jeremy Gabriel’ in that a collective can properly respond to jokes and that an individual is more likely to take it personally and suffer consequences.

His argument is that it would be better for comedians to make racist, sexist, ableist, etc jokes?

He makes a difference between the right to offend a group and the right to hurt an individual.

I agree that there is a difference but what is the line that Ward crossed in this case? Comedians mock the appearance and abilities of public figures all the time, as per the Trump example in the article. I don't think someone would reasonably watch the clip and think Ward actually wished death on Gabriel. So is the issue that Gabriel was a child - should there be special legislation to protect children from being publicly insulted? Perhaps. Is it that Gabriel is disabled and so especially vulnerable?

And how far should we go wrt allowing individuals to sue for being emotionally hurt?

I think in this case Gabriel being a public figure should make him fair game yes.

And how far should we go wrt allowing individuals to sue for being emotionally hurt?

How far should we let people use their platform to bully individuals?

I'd draw a line at credible threats or incitement of violence.

like actual "physical injury to a human being" violence, not "semantic violence" or whatever

Let's not pretend words can't have a meaningful impact on someone's wellbeing.

And how far should we go wrt allowing individuals to sue for being emotionally hurt?

at long last I can sue the girls who ghosted me on okcupid

Let's not pretend words can't have a meaningful impact on someone's wellbeing.

They can but I don't think the government and courts should protect us from every insult, offence, heartbreak, etc. that words can cause.

Would the fact that this is a minor make this a bit different? As an adult, I suppose you could say you’d “consented” to being a public figure and all that comes with it - and you’re certainly better equipped to handle that. Targeting a literal child, by name, might be taking things too far.

Who mentioned heartbreak? What a weird thing to include.

I think we should protect people from bullying, cyberbullying and harassment. Obviously, those things can take the verbal form.

Something similar happened in the context of Canadian culture, with famed (and wonderful) singer songwriter Safia Nolin having her zoom class interrupted by jerks who called her 'fat ugly arab' and other horrible things. She's been harassed for months by an online mob for years and yes, I believe that whoever participated in this should be sued. Now, Ward and the joke is a different thing because the initial intent is to make people laugh. I just think that drawing the line only a physical violence is laughable now that we have tons of research about mental health wellbeing and verbal violence.

Comedians @jess_salomon, @JoshBlueComedy, and @Statuesse weighed in on the Supreme Court case that will decide if Mike Ward had a constitutional right to make fun of a disabled teen in his act.
Watch the full episode of Canada Tonight on @cbcgem https://t.co/WKPDc1l0Xw pic.twitter.com/Lzhh5MJNJo

— Ginella Massa (@Ginella_M) February 19, 2021

thought what this comedian and lawyer said about the case made a lot of sense

That sounds OTM, yeah.

Agreed. Thanks for posting that, symsymsym.

I think we should protect people from bullying, cyberbullying and harassment. Obviously, those things can take the verbal form...

I just think that drawing the line only a physical violence is laughable now that we have tons of research about mental health wellbeing and verbal violence.

Tbc, I was thinking about the context of a comedy performance, or another such artistic or journalistic commentary on a public figure. I do think there should be legal restrictions on things like sexual harassment in the workplace.

Since I shared an article earlier about my partner's fight to get needed accommodations in lockdown, I should note there was some progress on this, due in no small part to the efforts of NDP MPP Joel Harden. P sure it's the first time I've seen a political representative actually listen and get something done in response to appeals from anyone I know.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/municipalities-can-open-facilities-for-those-with-medical-needs-says-province

P sure it's the first time I've seen a political representative actually listen and get something done in response to appeals from anyone I know.

Same here, heh. I'm amazed and happy to see that it paid off.

I watched the full panel discussion from the CBC Gem link. It was good, I thought. Salomon made a number of good points.

The most talked about news item in sovereignist circles right now is...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-u-s-trudeau-parti-quebecois-1.5922938

Good on them for caring about history, I guess?

that pic of PET, lol

definitely looks like he's plotting some cheeky political interference there

More like Pierre Elliott Trolleau amirite.

xxxxxp That's really good news, sund4r.

Thanks!

"Canadian Pacific chairman Ian Sinclair, who is the country's most influential businessman and who has also contacted Trudeau for guidance, tells me he didn't get a pull-out signal but got no encouragement to hang in," the telegram said.

Lol. Tbh, I wouldnt put it past PET to scheme like that but this is also v nebulous, all "suggests", "might", "thinks", etc. And it's p obvious that the "anglo capitalist elite" didn't need a conspiracy in order to want to flee a PQ government. The RCMP espionage of the PQ, which we know to be fact, is far more damning, honestly.

If anyone hasn't seen the multi-part NFB doc The/Les Champions about Trudeau, Levesque, and their rivalry, btw, it's v good (and available in both languages).

If you want to have a bit of fun, try arguing with this crowd:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Quebec/comments/lqgg0x/pierre_trudeau_may_have_asked_business_leader_to/

Vassago81
7 hours ago
J'suis prêt a payer plus cher de taxe scolaire pour que son visage soit imprimé dans le fond des urinoires et toilettes dans toutes les écoles.

BrewmasterOfPuppet
7 hours ago
Doublez mes taxes!!!

MrNonam3
Vallée des rivières
36 minutes ago
Je pense qu'il est temps que je me parte un rituel où je brûle sa photo tout en chantant Gens du Pays et embrassant une photo de papa Lévesque.

:D

If anyone hasn't seen the multi-part NFB doc The/Les Champions about Trudeau, Levesque, and their rivalry, btw, it's v good (and available in both languages).

― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, February 23, 2021 12:23 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

there was some discussion about this years ago, not sure which thread it was on, it is definitely worth watching

tempted to switch dn to "Doublez mes taxes!!!"

Not sure what to make of this. We knew things were slowed down but it's hard not to empathize with the replies. What's it looking like in other provinces?

Ontario will begin vaccinating people in the community in the 3rd week of March.

Week of Mar 22: 80+
April: 75+
May: 70+

The online booking portal will be available March 15.

— Colin D'Mello CTVNews (@ColinDMello) February 24, 2021

The NFB site still has the entirety of The Champions online.

Twitter wants me to know about this: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/02/24/pierre-elliott-trudeau-traitre-a-son-peuple

So proud of our Eric Zemmour knockoff.

Ugh, as though the hotel quarantine wasn’t enough of an ordeal as is:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/man-charged-in-alleged-sexual-assault-at-dorval-quarantine-hotel

sund4r: i was reading yesterday that Ontario is behind most provinces for % vaccinated, locations set up and for getting an online portal.

not a lot of details in BC yet. I read a column this morning suggesting the 80+ crowd will need to sign up for this to register for their appointment, which I can't see going well.

I was just thinking about the same thing when they were talking about online vaccination appointments on cp24. For people 75 and over, and they don’t think to make it easy to do by phone?

first, you need to upload three (3) tiktoks

Breaking down the poll’s results by demographic and regional subsamples, this new data indicates that the PCs have no visible weak spot: The party leads its main rivals among both male and female voters, and is ahead by double-digits in every age group—including a 20-point lead with voters aged 50-64, and a 24-point lead with the 65+ demographic. Additionally, Ford is either statistically tied or ahead in every polling region of Ontario, and enjoys a crushing 26-point lead in the seat-rich 905 region.

https://www.macleans.ca/politics/338canada-the-dominance-of-doug-fords-pc-party/

pathetic shit-eating province of losers

It’s cool, we’ve got you covered.

just realized we have a "worst canadian province" thread but it's from the pre-poll days....

Let’s not go there.

Now, ‘worst Canadian territory’ on the other hand...

I'm in Ontario but I just booked my dad's vaccine appointment in Alberta last night despite the nightmarish rollout, some light at the end of the tunnel

https://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/legault-government-names-minister-in-charge-of-fighting-racism

did they deliberately go looking for the whitest motherfucker they could find

You’d think Lionel Carmant or Nadine Girault would have been a better fit but I guess Legault prefers to tokenize them elsewhere.

Anyway, it’s a step up from outright denying the existence of systemic racism.

“I think there will be a lot of knee-jerk reaction. Let’s give the runner a chance.”

counterpoint: jerk actions necessitate knee-jerk reactions

Legault and Charette continued to insist systemic racism does not exist in Quebec and that the formula they have chosen to fight racism works.

Never mind, I should’ve read the article first.

“The nomination of Mr. Charette to such a position sends a clear message,” said Max Stanley Bazin, president of the Black Coalition of Quebec. “That message is that the government of Quebec wants to make the fight against racism a priority.”

well I agree with the first part

“I don’t deny racism exists — on the contrary,” Charette said. “What bothers me about the expression is that it creates a false sense of security, to put the blame on others. If we retreat behind a concept which is very vague, poorly defined, it removes the responsibility we all have (to act).”

So is it just the phrase they don't like? These seem like tedious quibbles.

Anyway, there can be systemic racism and also individual racism, right?

no there can only be one kind

The burden of proof for systemic racism to be recognized as such in Quebec is exceedingly high – if it’s not literally Jim Crow and/or apartheid, we’re golden. Apparently it’s really hard to hold together these two thoughts at the same time: ‘systemic racism in Quebec is technically less of a problem than it is in the US’ and ‘systemic racism in Quebec is still a serious problem that needs to be addressed posthaste’. The persistent narrative (within some circles) according to which white French Canadians were treated as badly as black Americans or very nearly is also to blame for this state of affairs.

On a more personal note, one thing I often wonder about is: how do we categorize discrimination against people with exotic-sounding names?

I'll wait to see what he does before judging ofc but... what is he expected to do?

I tried to find the original quote to see if he expanded more or if it was clearer but he just seems to be stressing that it's an individual problem, that everyone needs to look within himself or herself, that people of all races can be equally racist - so what would be the role of a Minister?

Pour M. Charette, le débat sur le racisme systémique « donne un faux sentiment de sécurité [et permet] de rejeter la faute sur l’autre ». « Mais en matière de racisme, on peut tous — qu’on soit noir, blanc, peu importe notre origine — alimenter certains préjugés. Donc si on se replie uniquement derrière un concept qui est très vague, qui est mal défini, ça nous enlève un peu une responsabilité qui nous revient », a-t-il plaidé.

« Peu importe la couleur de notre peau, peu importe nos origines, nous sommes tous susceptibles d’alimenter un racisme, d’alimenter certains préjugés à l’égard de certaines communautés ou de certains groupes, donc la solution est en partie à l’intérieur de chacun d’entre nous », a-t-il affirmé.

Not directly related to Charette, but this piece from a week ago is worth reading:

https://www.lapresse.ca/debats/opinions/2021-02-20/le-mot-en-s-pour-systemique.php

BC finding the best possible use for 16 billion dollars

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/site-c-announcement-friday-1.5928719

i sometimes do market research surveys on this app on my phone (it's tedious and it takes you ages to accrue enough points to get an uber eats $20 gift card or whatever so i don't do it that often) and i got multiple surveys, obviously from the NDP, regarding site C in the last month. i was anticipating some announcement on it imminently but wasn't sure which way it would go.

i feel like probably on a sheer dollar judgement it's probably the right decision - have already sunk so much into it - but im just totally against it on every other consideration

keeping it going after they were elected was such a mistake

i feel like horgan personally doesn't give 2 shits about indigenous sovereignty issues or the environment, and electorally they know that they have the capital and vancouver, so they want to appeal to the resource economy boosters outside the larger cities

Thinking more about the Charette appointment, I realized something didn't sit right with me about Legault's comments:

“I have the impression that had I named someone from a minority group, people would have said, ‘We know very well that the person was named because they were members of a minority,’ ” Legault said. “Yet it is all Quebecers who must fight racism.

He essentially indicates here (and the original French did not help him) that he intentionally chose a white person because he was worried about what people would think, which does not bode well for an anti-racism campaign imo.

Also, the CBC actually trimmed this quote in a generous way imo (from Le Devoir):

« Ce n’est pas parce que quelqu’un est parmi le groupe qui est victime que nécessairement, la personne est mieux placée pour lutter », a fait valoir M. Legault pour justifier son choix de ministre. « On s’adresse entre autres aux personnes qui font partie des Québécois qu’on appelle blancs, ou “de souche”, pour qu’eux autres — s’il y en a une minorité qu’on doit faire changer d’idée — [ puissent ] poser des actions. »

I don't necessarily disagree that someone from outside an oppressed group could do a good job in the fight but the second part (which CBC left out) feels a little off. He wants to also reach out to white "old stock" Quebecers, so that they (or the minority who need to change) can take action too - but why would they need a white Minister to be motivated to do that?

I haven't had a chance to read everything posted today, but yes the "logic" behind not hiring a minority because you're afraid it will seem tokenizing is gross.

There might be some truth to "old whites will only listen to another white about racism" but yikes

I mean seriously, that last bit is more kinda worse than admitting there's systemic racism! "There's no systemic racism, but it is true that white Quebecers are so profoundly racist they will only respect the authority and viewpoints of white people."

It’s just a handful of individuals, you see.

Also, is he saying that only ‘old stock’ Québécois are white? If so, that’s quite the hot take.

Ha, I wasn't sure where you were coming from earlier about discrimination over exotic-sounding names but maybe that goes some way towards clarifying?

Yeah, I’m curious about the data on whether in Quebec you are less likely to get an interview with an employer if you have a ‘non-Western’-sounding name (my hunch is: probably) and whether that qualifies as ‘racism’ or another kind of discrimination altogether.

In any event, it does seem that the answer to this question was "yes":

did they deliberately go looking for the whitest motherfucker they could find

A Chinese colleague of mine said he couldn't get interviews for IT jobs in Canada until he adopted a Western first name.

I believe it.

This is purely anecdotal, of course, and perhaps a bit paranoid on my part, but I've often wondered whether I didn't make it to the interview stage for certain jobs on account of my 'alien'-sounding first name (my legal last name is also 'weirder' than the one I usually go by) despite scanning as 'white'. I've never been gratuitously stopped by a cop while going about my business, so this is obviously a different and less crucial ballpark – I don't mean to minimize the oppression visible minorities continue to suffer in Quebec, and elsewhere. Still, it's an insidious kind of discrimination that has always made me feel like I'm never going to fit in 100%. Maybe it just comes with the territory when you're an immigrant, idk.

Tbc there are other positions I applied for where I did not get this impression at all. Rather, it seems to be a pervasive issue at a particular kind of institution where 95% of employees have a franco-sounding name (I'm not going to spell it out because I'd rather not doxx myself just yet).

I've definitely 'changed' my name on the phone in my illustrious former telemarketing/phone survey career (and was advised to do so by one manager) but I just thought the potential discrimination involved there, as with the example of the Chinese IT worker, fit under the generally understood rubric of racism, as opposed to anything about exotic names in and of themselves. The case where someone would not experience bigotry based on anything like skin colour, clothing, or accent but might be discriminated against just because their name reveals them to be the wrong type of white person is interesting, though.

The case where someone would not experience bigotry based on anything like skin colour, clothing, or accent but might be discriminated against just because their name reveals them to be the wrong type of white person is interesting, though.

It's a very minor problem, really. I'm curious about it for mainly personal reasons and because of my own nagging sense of foreignness. The Romanian community appears to have done fairly well for itself in Quebec, as far as I can tell. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if having an overly anglo-sounding first *and* last name was also an impediment in some fields.

When my dad came to Toronto in 1950 from England, some employers said straight out they wouldn't hire limeys. Not to say the English were discriminated against in any real way, but people have always found a way to underline a difference between themselves and the other.

I've been told that in the Hungarian community in my grandparents' generation there were even prejudices against other Hungarian immigrant cohorts, like those who came over in '56.

Sneetchyarok

Update: We’ve secured 20 million doses of AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine - and on top of that, we’ve now reached an agreement with the Serum Institute of India for another 2 million doses. Our first shipment of half a million doses is expected to arrive within weeks.

— Justin Trudeau (@JustinTrudeau) February 27, 2021

Nice.

Don't know where to put this but here: https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/596096/dis-son-nom-ne-peut-etre-anonyme

Maybe someone knows enough about Quebec/Canadian law to explain why the anonymity of the abuse victims, and all their conversations to the Dis Son Nom account had to revealed?

This whole thing is so aggravating. I wish eternal sadness and solitude to that Marquis dude.

Just as things start to reopen, this, which I doubt is a blip; felt like an inevitability.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2021/03/08/coronavirus-updates-covid-19-canada-ontario-toronto-march-8-2021.html

As the new cliché goes, it really is a vaccine-variant race.

They just very recently ramped up asymptomatic testing in lots of locations around Ontario (we had it offered here on Saturday and it’s available again on Thursday) so it would be good to see which proportion of that new increase is attributable to those - the % that were previously just going unnoticed.

Labs report 38,063 completed tests with a 3.4 per cent positivity rate.

That's a jump too; I think we're somewhere between 1-2% when we're doing well...I don't want to sound all doom and gloom--the vaccines are just about to be administered widely. I just dread another shutdown, for personal reasons and for what it will do to public morale.

I’m just annoyed that none of this data reporting seems to answer that sort of really obvious question. Even the govt pages don’t give that breakdown or mention it under the caveats heading -unless I’m missing it.

https://files.ontario.ca/moh-covid-19-report-en-2021-03-08.pdf

CP24 is blaming the jump on a “data catch up”

Good to hear--I remember now that lagging data was an issue when they switched over to a new reporting system a few weeks ago. Even better, that CDC news today about masks, which I assume will be adopted here, too, at some point.

this made me laugh:

Aaaand the Conservatives have deleted their ad for Justin Trudeau. pic.twitter.com/O8tsTMgiKO

— Jesse Brown (@JesseBrown) March 16, 2021

Haha

wow that is dim

Amazing

wtf I love the Tories now

I was tbh shocked to see Isabelle Hachey retweet this call (by an Ottawa-area journalist) for UOttawa to reconsider a prof's position bc of an opinionated tweet about QC health care and racism, considering what seemed like her v principled liberal defence of Véronique Lieutenant-Duval. Is academic freedom less important now?

Ce prof est digne de votre institution, @uOttawa ? https://t.co/j0mXRqtZzg

— Louis-Denis Ebacher (@ldebacher) March 15, 2021

I find Attaran's takes eye-rollingly simplistic and deliberately provocative but that seems very deux poids, deux mesures on Hachey's part, I agree. Criticize him if you want, but to imply that he ought to lose his job over such tweets is about as self-contradictory as it gets.

tbh I appreciate her making explicit who she thinks deserves academic freedom and why.

find Attaran's takes eye-rollingly simplistic and deliberately provocative

I agree but, here, wasn't he basically reacting hyperbolically to a legitimately shocking recording of an aboriginal woman dying after being ignored and then insulted by nurses?: https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/sante/2020-09-29/mort-d-une-femme-autochtone-a-joliette/une-infirmiere-qui-a-tenu-des-propos-racistes-congediee.php

This seems more offensive, if anything:

Lots of Albertans mad at me. Don’t give a damn.

I’m not the one killing you. YOU Albertans are killing yourselves by refusing to lock down or wear masks. But instead of fixing the problem’s source, you beg Ottawa for field hospitals to warehouse more dying! Grow up already.

— Amir Attaran (@profamirattaran) December 4, 2020

I agree but, here, wasn't he basically reacting hyperbolically to a legitimately shocking recording of an aboriginal woman dying after being ignored and then insulted by nurses?

Of course, but the implication that no one is taking this issue seriously in Quebec is ridiculous:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/2021-03-16/autochtone-discriminee-a-joliette/un-autre-cas-qui-ne-passe-pas.php

At least that's how I read his 'Alabama of the North' comment.

also similar things happen everywhere in canada

there was a case in bc that in at least one emergency room the staff played a game of guessing the blood alcohol level of indigenous patients

"grow up and quit dying" is an interesting approach to politics

OK, I agree that the tweet was characteristically rash and unfair but not with the claim, quoted by the journalist above, that the absence of a response to AA from 'authorities' is evidence of widespread anti-Quebec bias at UOttawa or the country (as per Attaran's tweets about other provinces).

Oh totally, that claim is absurd. Def not defending Sivis Pacem (whoever that is), Ebacher or Hachey here.

Here comes the obligatory hand-wringing:

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/03/17/quand-le-racisme-est-a-geometrie-variable

Ha, based on the tweets he quotes, you could just as easily argue that Attaran is racist against Americans (although he is one).

I mean, maybe that's flip but, while I strongly disagreed with the suspension of Lieutenant-Duval, comparing one prof's ill-judged actions in the classroom to what another prof writes on a personal Twitter account (where he makes clear in his bio that it is not affiliated with the university) seems specious to begin with. And taking his tweets about Quebec in isolation from his equally vicious tweets about Ontario or Alberta and claiming that this is evidence of a broader oppressive colonial mentality (esp when talking about a child of Middle Eastern immigrants) is OTT - but the disturbing part is when the author essentially attributes any Canadian criticism of racism in Quebec to this imperialistic contempt. I question why one of the only fully bilingual universities in English Canada, and the largest, seems to have been chosen as a target for outrage.

otm

Le Journal de Montréal is chockfull of such bullshit. I'm surprised Mathieu Bock-Côté has yet to enter the fray.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/no-doubt-experts-warn-third-wave-is-upon-us-1.5350751

Legault's newfound strategy appears to be 'let's vaccinate our vulnerable populations asap and let the new strains do their thing among the young and healthy'. Curfew in Montreal just got pushed back to 9:30 and a semblance of normalcy is resuming in orange zones across the province. We'll see where this goes.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/reports-of-anti-asian-hate-crimes-are-surging-in-canada-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-1.5351481

Hardly surprising, alas. It's only gotten worse since the start of the pandemic.

Meanwhile, we need to keep talking about the *real* victims here:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/2021-03-18/l-alabama-du-nord/le-pq-portera-plainte-contre-un-professeur-de-l-universite-d-ottawa.php

Wow

I didn't even read that because I was immediately distracted by this headline: https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/sante/2021-03-17/hopital-de-saint-eustache/dix-offres-d-emploi-pour-femme-blanche-seulement.php

Their justification for it is quite bizarre, to say the least:

A spokeswoman with the authority said the job posting, which La Presse said was distributed to external placement agencies, was exceptional and connected to a patient at the St-Eustache hospital suffering from dementia who was disruptive in the presence of racialized staff.

"So it seems that the choice to ask for a white employee was more about ensuring the safety of the staff of colour, whom we do not wish to place in risky situations, and not to respond to a patient's racist preference, which is very different," Julie Lemieux-Cote wrote.

"On the other hand, this is absolutely not the right way to resolve such a problem, and we will see that other options are considered instead in the future."

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/quebec-health-officials-investigate-job-posting-requiring-applicants-be-white-women-1.5351247

I mean, this doesn't exactly pass muster when set against Occam's razor.

yeah I mean this can't possibly be the first time a hospital has had to confront a situation where a patient "was disruptive in the presence of . . . staff"

Our ministre responsable de la lutte contre le racisme, ladies and gentlemen:

"So be careful before you cry racism, but, yes, the posting was clearly, clearly inappropriate, the choice of words was utterly inexcusable," he said in response to a question from the opposition.

is this sort of like when you fight fire with fire?

Those HR employees were probably just having a bad day.

am I being an ignorant American here? why are they talking about whether or not this was appropriate -- surely this isn't even remotely legal?

The Gazette article on this quotes Charette in full:

“An investigation is underway to find out exactly what happened. What we suspect now is that it is clearly a lack of training at the human resources level. They wanted to take care of a man who is very sick, with significant cognitive issues who can be violent.

“But at the same time, they clearly violated the civil rights of employees who could not apply for this job offer. It is a troubling situation, with completely inappropriate acts, but before concluding it was a racist act we need to wait for the results of the investigation. If it is true, trust me, my actions will be swift.”

https://montrealgazette.com/news/quebec/saint-eustache-hospital-posts-job-offers-for-white-woman-only-report

It's cool, we've only got, like, seven more years under this government at the very least.

I could totally see the hospital staff always using a white person with a patient such as this just because it causes less trouble, but that does not seem like any kind of reasonable justification for potentially denying employment to a person of colour. I don't know, this is a weird one and I'm trying to give some benefit of the doubt but surely this kind of stuff has happened elsewhere and must have been dealt with in a non-racist way.

surely this kind of stuff has happened elsewhere and must have been dealt with in a non-racist way

Exactly.

that's the sticking point

I suspect the unspoken, not-at-all-racist-I-swear underlying situation here is that care-giving jobs are largely staffed by people of colour and/or immigrants. That does not explain or justify management's actions of course.

Rob, IANAL but I think this would violate section 8 of the Canadian Human Rights Act, although idk where provincial jurisdiction comes in here, nor what QC's specific human rights law is: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/h-6/page-1.html#h-256800

Also section 15 of the Charter: https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-15.html

Same thing in Quebec: http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/showdoc/cs/c-12 (see chapter I.1, esp. 'Nul ne peut exercer de discrimination dans l’embauche, l’apprentissage, la durée de la période de probation, la formation professionnelle, la promotion, la mutation, le déplacement, la mise à pied, la suspension, le renvoi ou les conditions de travail d’une personne ainsi que dans l’établissement de catégories ou de classifications d’emploi').

Ah, thanks, I was sure there was something similar at the provincial level but wasn't sure what it was exactly for QC - that does make Charette's response seem especially curious.

He stated that 'the civil rights of employees who could not apply for this job offer' were 'clearly violated', so he's aware of the legal stakes, yet he believes that it's not necessarily indicative of racism.

thank you both

"The civil rights of non-white employees were violated due to racial discrimination but let's not be hasty to call this racism"?

I assume his argument has to do with intent. This is eerily reminiscent of debates across the border as to whether the Atlanta shootings were racially motivated or not. Is it bad faith or sheer obliviousness or both?

Well, with the Atlanta shootings, the shooter didn't afaik explicitly state that he meant to target a racial group (although we can take it as implicit given his choices - even if it is the case that those just happened to be the massage parlours he frequented, one could question why he selected those in the first place for an act he considered sinful enough to justify murder). In this case, the ad explicitly excluded, i.e. discriminated against, non-white racial groups - in order to cater to a patient who was being explicitly racist. I realize (or am guessing) Charette's point is most likely that the provincial employees themselves do not harbour ill will towards non-white people in their hearts and were just trying to accommodate the situation by practising racial discrimination - for all of its problems, I think this is the sort of thing the term "systemic racism" was meant to describe but I suppose that concept has been taken off the table? I'm not sure what Charette would even do differently if he could prove 'racist intent' by his definition. What sort of "swift action" is he thinking of?

(Tbc, I do think the Atlanta shootings should be seen as racial violence. I just don't think there's any grey area in this case as to whether the discrimination was based on race, since it was spelled right out in the ad, where I can at least see how someone could see grey in the Atlanta case.)

I just don't think there's any grey area in this case as to whether the discrimination was based on race

I very much agree, but from Charette's perspective, there *is* a grey area here: the ad itself was indeed discriminatory, he admits, but it was not necessarily racist per se, since the intent may not have been to harm non-white candidates but rather to protect them (see the spokeswoman's statement, quoted upthread: 'it seems that the choice to ask for a white employee was more about ensuring the safety of the staff of colour, whom we do not wish to place in risky situations, and not to respond to a patient's racist preference, which is very different').

Yeah it seems consistent with his view, discussed above, that racism is a matter of the prejudices an individual harbours within himself or herself, so maybe it's not bad faith wrt your question. But, ok, let's call this racial discrimination and a civil rights violation instead of racism (as far as provincial employees are concerned) - what does that change on a policy level? Does it just mean that it no longer concerns him since he's the Minister responsible for fighting racism? What if we could somehow prove racist intent - what would he do in that case? I think that's what I'm wondering.

The very existence of his ministry implies the need to tackle racism from a systemic angle, or so it seems to me, but I imagine Charette would retort that this doesn't mean racism in Quebec is itself systemic, which strikes me as convoluted. Publicly acknowledging systemic racism appears to be a greater challenge for the CAQ than claiming something needs to be done about it (and setting up a new portfolio for this very purpose!), weirdly enough.

But yeah, I have no idea what he would actually do if racist intent was legally averred in this particular instance. Read out a strongly worded statement?

Re: verbally abused indigenous woman in Joliette, the plot thickens:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/2021-03-19/infirmieres-renvoyees-a-joliette/c-etait-un-congediement-politique.php

There might have been an overreaction after the previous, genuinely awful, case but it does still seem incredibly condescending for a nurse to ask an adult patient "can you sing a song in your language"? If that's what they learned to do in their training session, there might be some kind of, uh, systemic issue. (That said, I've been patronized lots of times without anyone getting fired.) And why would they tell someone named Jocelyne that they are going to nickname her "Joyce", even if they somehow didn't remember the scandalous death of a Joyce in their hospital?

Ce serait aussi dans l’espoir de briser la glace que cette même infirmière a demandé à Jocelyne Ottawa si on l’appelait Joyce dans sa communauté. « Jamais elle n’a pensé à Joyce Echaquan, jamais », jure M. Cormier. « C’était pour essayer d’entrer en communication avec elle. »

I'm not going to try to read their minds, but that's at the very least a really bad gaffe. It's not like 'Joyce' is a normal nickname for 'Jocelyne,' afaik.

The sheer cringeworthy awkwardness of it all is too much to bear.

In the version that was reported here, they actually told her they were nicknaming her "Joyce", which is more aggressive, although neither is great: https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2021/03/16/je-me-suis-sentie-humiliee--jocelyne-ottawa-1

«Une [ autre ] a vu mon nom dans le dossier, puis elle a dit : ‘’on va t’appeler Joyce, puis ça va être comme ça pour les intimes», rapporte Mme Ottawa.

No one could have seen this coming:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/conservative-delegates-reject-climate-change-is-real-1.5957739

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-rcmp-destroyed-police-records-from-the-night-colten-boushie-died/

This is perfectly revolting and sadly unsurprising

The CRCC said the police investigation was generally professional and reasonable but it highlighted several serious shortcomings: from surrounding the victim’s family home with weapons drawn and searching it unlawfully, to failing to preserve forensic evidence, issuing press releases that inflamed public feeling and improperly handling witnesses.

I’m curious what aspect was actually “professional” or “reasonable”

I wondered the same thing. Correct syrup-chugging technique?

I question why one of the only fully bilingual universities in English Canada, and the largest, seems to have been chosen as a target for outrage.

PQ leader Bérubé just wants to ~emphasize~ that 5500 QC students attend UOttawa, and that a number of them receive provincial funding to do so, when he calls on the Assembly to denounce "all persons and institutions in Canada" who refuse to intervene to stop "unacceptable comments about Quebec" (i.e. a prof trolling on Twitter).

Situation à l’@uOttawa quant aux attaques haineuses, discriminatoires et francophobes à l’égard de la nation québécoise.

Voici la motion que je vais présenter ce matin à l’@AssnatQc au nom du @PartiQuebecois. Il faut condamner avec force. @profamirattaran #Assnat #PolQc pic.twitter.com/Sx1Mhqx94n

— Pascal Bérubé (@PascalBerube) March 24, 2021

How accurate is the first sentence here btw?

With India stopping vaccine exports, and the EU possibly doing so, 100% of Canada's vaccine supply is now at risk.

Hope for the best, expect the worst, and never forgive Team Trudeau for refusing to manufacture some at home. https://t.co/RrYseMiaL2

— Amir Attaran (@profamirattaran) March 24, 2021

I thought I read something specifically pointing out that the EU problems wouldn't affect Canada, but now I can't find it.

The couple of times I've looked at that guy's timeline I've seen a ton of disingenuous crap, e.g., comparing Alaska's successful vaccination roll-out to all of Canada's, which is absurd. Annoying as hell that the PQ are determined to make him into a hero.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/pm-concerned-about-vaccine-restrictions-no-indication-canada-is-impacted-1.5359764

Seems that despite all the reassurances that we’ll probably still get deliveries, it’s all contingent upon those countries not having an exceptional domestic need at the same time. So yeah.

I’m still not sure that producing it domestically was ever a viable option within just the one year though. If mistakes were made, have to look backwards there.

Just saw that it’s confirmed we will be getting the US’s “spare” Astra Zeneca doses - yay?

Re: Attaran, Hachey is no hypocrite after all:

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/2021-03-25/a-la-defense-du-prof-attaran-un-peu.php

Haha, a week ago, she was wondering aloud on Twitter whether she should write about him (most respondents seemed to assume she meant critically) or should not feed the troll. I replied like this, without expecting she actually would!

Oui, j'espère que vous défendrez encore la liberté académique.

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) March 19, 2021

Ontario budget sounds OK, in broad strokes. Will need to read more since this piece is very general but even the NDP's criticisms sound tepid in this article.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-budget-2021-covid-19-doug-ford-1.5962279

not much about education in that article:

https://pressprogress.ca/doug-fords-2021-budget-confirms-over-1-billion-in-cuts-to-education-ontario-school-boards-say/

Ugh, figured there was a catch (at least one).

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine-covid-19-1.5968657

not loving this

It's dumb. Vaccine rollout is totally shit here, so par for the course.

Indoor dining just suspended in BC for at least 3 weeks as our numbers are back up to as high as they've been (was 900 or so on Friday).

love the non-utilitarian version of medical ethics where a 1% chance that a side effect that kills 1 in 10 million isn’t a statistical fluke is a reason to stop giving out the vaccine that gives 80% immunity to a disease that kills 1 in 100

I have no idea what is even happening anymore. There are rumours that the Ontario school break that got moved to April will be delayed again until the end of the year, but Lecce is saying noo no way won’t happen, but same day Ford is all oh that’s two weeks away, can’t commit, who can say.

And though I respect the medical realities, the way they are threatening more hard lockdowns literally immediately after allowing many businesses to finally restock and restaff is just cruel. It’s breaking people.

"I know it doesn’t, and obviously not all Quebecers are racist. But when a white supremacist party can win a majority, that is an indication of the dominant belief in Quebec." -amir Attaran
@profamirattaran

gotta remember to be careful who you trust. hopefully québec will become a country within my lifetime ... and then give lessons of cosmopolitanism to english canadians.

quebec is very racist and not really in a position to give anyone lessons. it's just that other parts of canada are no slouches in racism and not really in a position to lord any supposed superiority in this matter over quebec (as much as some people may try).

I mean, feel free to model superior cosmopolitanism and teach us rn, pls. No need to wait to become a country. xp

What do people think of this reading?: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-trudeau-legault-1.5965855

I think lots of people are confused because white supremacy for some really means KKK and neo-nazism, which obviously isn’t what CAQ is; while for others, it’s more about how systematic racism upholds white privilege, which is exactly what CAQ is all about, and I’m not going to fault all Quebecers for not being totally aware of these discussions and nuances.

Wanting to give lessons in cosmopolitanism is a strange sentiment that being said: why don’t we wish maximum cosmopolitanism for everyone to be free of their racial heritage? How can it be competitive?

calling québécois white supremacists is off. if you don't get that and talk about missing nuances... forget it. end of the lesson. that was a joke too, me giving lessons: i gave up on interracting seriously with canadians about that a long time ago. if the dudes in here , that i presumed a bit left of shitlibs, don't see a problem with what he said : forget it. i'm outta this thread and will try to stay out.

Yeah but turns out lots of quebecois think that too.

And how can one look at the present treatment of FNIM and not see white supremacy is beyond me.

Sébastien, we have a French-language board now, so we can talk about it there if you like:

https://www.ilxor.com/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=725388455

Sébastien, I don't think anyone here has unequivocally praised Attaran's tweets.

But pom otm, Jdt could use some fire.

These two things are simultaneously true imo: anglophones grossly underestimate the prevalence of Quebec and/or French bashing; francophones use this as an excuse not to put their own house in order.

Much of the debate hinges on whether you believe any alternative to multiculturalism is fundamentally racist or not.

As an aside, user xzanfar is a good example of someone who appears to outright disdain francophones if their contributions to the ‘most Canadian song’ and Québécois music threads on ILM are anything to go by.

Not that it matters since French is dying anyway, right?

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/breaking-point-studies-find-french-language-is-on-the-decline-in-quebec-1.5367575

Quebec and/or French bashing

Does this mostly mean people like xzanfar talking shit or do you feel that there is a broader level of discrimination? I grew up in the suburbs of Ottawa in the 90s and am p aware of the former thing. (I don't think there's a modern-day phenomenon comparable to gay-bashing or Paki-bashing, though?)

Every time a Reddit thread about Canada makes it to the top of r/all there’s always someone who waxes poetic about how amazingly nice Canadians are, until it inevitably turns into a conversation about how the Québécois are the exception to this rule. Cue a subthread about how awful Quebec is and how much they fucking hate it. The hundreds or thousands of upvotes (depending on how popular the thread is) such comments systematically garner speak for themselves.

And yeah, race-based bashing is def worse, no question about it.

It’s reddit.

Reddit is extremely mainstream these days.

As far as Attaran is concerned, Trudeau pointedly called his behaviour by its name:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-trudeau-calls-for-end-to-university-of-ottawa-professors-quebec/

Plenty of examples in the comments section of that article btw (plenty of counter-examples too!).

I'm honestly confused as to why this guy matters? His tweets are abysmal regardless of your politics

My rule of thumb is that its Quebec bashing if you single out Quebec.

I'm not sure what you mean VHS. Surely there are unique things about Quebec that one could complain about?

Every time a Reddit thread about Canada makes it to the top of r/all there’s always someone who waxes poetic about how amazingly nice Canadians are, until it inevitably turns into a conversation about how the Québécois are the exception to this rule. Cue a subthread about how awful Quebec is and how much they fucking hate it. The hundreds or thousands of upvotes (depending on how popular the thread is) such comments systematically garner speak for themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean VHS. Surely there are unique things about Quebec that one could complain about?

I don't think there's anywhere near a consensus that Cegep sucks.

I meant more like if I wanted to complain that, on the basis of Bill 21, Quebec is Islamophobic, I wouldn't consider that "Quebec-bashing."

Why is everything in Montreal under construction all the time?

Corruption + winter

I don't think there's anywhere near a consensus that Cegep sucks.

I meant more like if I wanted to complain that, on the basis of Bill 21, Quebec is Islamophobic, I wouldn't consider that "Quebec-bashing."

Hmm. The cégep system absolutely rules and I’ve never met anyone who disagrees.

xps rob that’s a fair take and quite different from saying stuff like ‘Quebec is a fascist province devoted to white supremacy’.

Because it forgot to build stuff between 1970 and 2000.

Hmm. The cégep system absolutely rules and I’ve never met anyone who disagrees.

Cegeps absolutely sucks.

xp

That makes sense pom, and it speaks to what is so indefensible about Attaran's entire twitter feed, just one bad-faith point-scoring comparison after another.

Feel jealous yet, Canada? Our federal government is incompetent. https://t.co/9IFoEDl1GW

— Amir Attaran (@profamirattaran) March 30, 2021

It's not like I think Canada is doing an exemplary job, but am I jealous of how the **UNITED STATES** handled / is handling Covid? Jesus christ no.

Cegep divergence is interesting. I feel like I mostly hear good things, but I moved here in my 30s

High school was a nightmare and it got me out of there faster. The majority of my best friends to this day are people I met at the collégial level. It taught me basics without which I would have probably dropped out once I got into university. It changed my life for the better in every possible way.

I'm not sure what you mean VHS. Surely there are unique things about Quebec that one could complain about?

― rob, Tuesday, March 30, 2021 4:33 PM (twelve minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I just don’t think Quebec is unique in it’s ability to ostracise people of color and immigrants, it’s pretty much the same all over the western world, including the ROC. If you treat Quebec like it exists in some sort of vacuum and not an integral part of Canada, and that you don’t also include that quebecois throughout history have fought for multicultural values and fought against racism inside Quebec and inside Canada, and that you ignore what anglo-Canadiana has done to non-white and non-anglophones throughout the land in its history and in the present day then yeah, I believe it is singling out and pretty shitty behavior.

otm

I have really good memories of Cégep, mostly involving alcohol and drugs

xp
I agree with that entirely!

even from a purely academic standpoint, I think it's good that there's an intermediate point between high school and university. It gives you a couple of years to figure out what you want to do specifically in a way that I'm not sure would be possible if you just went to high school longer.

xp to myself

And to circle back to that tweet, I do think that we should all be a little more cautious with the words ‘white supremacists’.

But I mean, why the need for a condemnation from the PM? What does "enough" mean coming from the head of government? Does he share Legault's opinion that UOttawa admin should step in? Should Biden also condemn his slander of Alabama (while he overlooks the racism of Massachusetts)? How does JT feel about Attaran's comments on Alberta?

Those are fair questions, re: Trudeau’s intentions, but I just wanted to say that I really don’t think Attaran’s Alberta bashing can be set on an equal footing with his Quebec bashing, which is part of a broader phenomenon with a much longer history, one that is more complex and multifaceted in terms of the cultural differences that are being targeted. To my knowledge, Attaran has never called Alberta a white suprematist province, which is telling. Describing Albertans as ‘greedy’ because they require federal aid to tackle the ongoing pandemic is crass but of a different order than describing Quebec as quintessentially racist.

Also I’m pretty sure no one in Alabama gives a shit about what some Northerner rando thinks.
They’re too busy cracking down on trans rights at the moment. Just like in Quebec, no doubt.

Heh, he was born, raised, and educated in California so I think he's actually a West Coast rando.:P I'm sure Alabamans don't give a shit, though, on which point they are OTM.

Oh yeah I know he's from Cali but the likelihood of Alabamans looking into his background is even lower than that of them caring about his tweets! Def otm to ignore him, I agree, although we (and the media) have all been doing this little dance where it's like 'it goes without saying that we shouldn't feed the troll, BUT...', so mea culpa.

Yeah seems like we could all be better by just ignoring him, plenty of voices speak eloquently and intelligently about racism in Quebec already.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/anti-racism-week-lester-b-pearson-1.5966965

one of those voices pissed off a montreal high school teacher

I'm sure we will see a couple of weeks of media outrage, followed by denunciations from the Assemblée, Legault, and Trudeau himself.

Anyway, my spouse was able to book her first vaccine for this week. I had been starting to lose faith it would happen any time soon.

French coverage of that story is a bit different, as usual:

https://www.ledevoir.com/societe/education/597752/montreal-une-presentation-sur-le-mot-en-n-seme-l-emoi-dans-une-ecole-anglophone

Vallières’s analogy will never not be tirée par les cheveux, however, although it’s also worth remembering that he wrote that book after spending time with the Black Panthers in New York.

xp at last! Congrats!

Thx, pom!

What do you think of Le Devoir's framing of that story?

Dramatically losing your shit ahead of the Q&A over a presentation that was specifically designed to increase awareness of racist bias after two (anglophone) students were caught posting videos of themselves in blackface is nagl no matter which way you slice it. And while the speaker may indeed have drawn some specious parallels (which remains to be seen – this is the claim being reported in Le Devoir), I don’t think the teacher’s aggressive response was justified in this particular context, especially since – once again – Newton was right to point out that the oppression faced by French Canadians is by no means comparable to that of African Americans, contra Vallières, although I do think the latter’s essay is a fascinating historical document that deserves an in-depth discussion to pick apart its assumptions and to point out everything that gets lost in translation when you dump into an anglophone context in 2021. But this was not an academic talk – it was aimed at high school students, some of whom have a history of unmistakably racist behaviour.

*dump it