Do you consider yourself a patriot?

Only during the world cup

Been a real practice in forbearance reading some of the Aussie slander posted in the world cup thread

Yes I do, but I love my fake country in a specific and highly personal way-- the most salient version of this "love" is that I stay on top of my taxes and am happy to do so

tbf belgium is maybe doing less of these things at this current moment

‪Rodger Sherman‬

people who hate imperialism and genocide can simply root for USA's opponent on Monday night, Belgium

i love my country's food and creative arts and slang and jokes; i do not love my country's violence which is the part that gets celebrated on the fourth of july

how do you think I voted

less than ever, somehow

the single word 'patriot' is defined in far too many ways to be useful for communicating anyone's attitude toward their nation. this means misunderstanding is all but guaranteed. in my own mind and by my own definition of what it means to love my country, then i voted yes, I consider myself a patriot. but my patriotism is never a comfortable, and nowhere near a complacent, position.

ˈa person who loves his or her country and defends it when necessary

I remember someone saying "it's like if someone calls your dad an asshole, maybe he is an asshole but he's your dad, and they have no right to say it"

my answer to this is

* my dad is certainly not an asshole
* if he were an asshole I'd like him to be correctly labelled as such
* the country is not your dad, the country does not give a shit about you

resounding no

xp hey some of our dads don't give a shit about us either!

First refuge of a scoundrel, so no

I don't even own a tv

Lmao fuck a patriot

Buncha cunts who never do anything for their community but take credit for shit someone else did cos you grew up in the same land mass

i can see how somebody might get a little misty-eyed about a nation that presents itself as a promise or an ideal or a mission somehow, even if that mist in the eyes is hiding the sordid reality of what a nation actually is and does in the alleged service of that ideal. but if yr nation isn't an ideal but the (faux) historic demesne of some in-bred feudal landlord then jesus grow some dignity you don't have to willingly embrace serfdom

country/people/culture/nation if patriotism is fealty to the last of those then it can usually quite easily serve as a container for all the worst that you might be asked to sign up for in any given demand for partisanship

the land, the people, the culture ah i love for all the faults and flaws but its rare i ever have much demanded of me ito belief or answers from that set tbh (language aside)

I like certain aspects of my country and dislike others. I'm fairly happy to have been born here. I would feel the same if I had been born in any other country more or less. Patriotism is ridiculous.

i feel like patriotism like i feel about appeals to loyalty to family pretty much

As soon as shit hits the fan here I'm off.

No loyalty to anything but me

its already hit the fan though

I'm not at all patriotic, but that isn't an intellectually thought out or even moral choice on my part. I'm just not, just like I don't believe in God but I couldn't tell you why and don't care enough to think about the why. I don't think people who are patriotic are wrong or suspect tho. I remember seeing an old world cup where one of the Chile players was belting out their national anthem and looking v emotional and thinking how cool it looked, but if it was an england player doing the same to god save the queen I'd find it yucky, which makes no sense really.

it might just come down to childhood for me, get called the n word a few times when youre a kid and the idea that england is for you seems strange.
I do like living here tho and have no desire to live anywhere else.

this is kinda how I feel about Scotland - get called a [gay slur] of choice, you think you're not welcome.

I don't know my birth father and I've never met him so half of my identity is a question mark, and it's hard to feel connected to anything to do with my origins partly because of that too.

I also think parts of Scotland, especially the parts where I come from, have a culture of people being expected to know their place, to lower their ambitions, to not reach too high. I know I'm mediocre but it would have been nice to not be pressured into feeling like that by everything and everyone around me.

A lot of the traditional Scottish stuff leaves me cold. I hate the traditional music, I would never eat haggis again, I can barely tolerate even Irn-Bru. I know it sounds so small and petty but this stuff really does feed into the identity alienation. There's adverts featuring Susan Calman for the Bank Of Scotland where she really leans into the Scottishness and I find it so embarrassing and exaggerated and unlikeable.

voted no

I am extremely partisan about my home state but not about the USA as such (despite ancestors fighting to create it 250 years ago, or maybe because of that and knowing how the sausage got made).

No. I have never and never will do so, mostly due to my life having been marked by migration and having encountered some degree of unwelcome hostility in all three countries I've been citizen of (including in the first one when I would return). I have never felt like I belonged to any imagined national community and as an outsider the internal divisions were always too apparent to me to develop patriotic feelings (e.g., moving to the South from the Midwest and feeling somewhat like an immigrant all over again).

Apart from the long list of negative reasons (history, current actions, etc.), it feels like a philosophical error to tie any positive reasons to a "love of country."

No. There are things about the USA that I am very attached to and fond of, but I have liked things about every country I’ve been to and I can imagine living happily many places on the globe. “Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.” — George Jean Nathan

I am extremely partisan about my home state but not about the USA as such

Yeah, this is where I fall too. I’m not from America; I’m from New Jersey.

That fascinates me because the other day a friend and I argued about the partisanship of the South up to and after the Civil War: they were Virginians or Carolinians before Americans, which I find so bizarre.

Lmao fuck a patriot

― a hoy hoy, Saturday, July 4, 2026

I have!

Not a patriot but seems good to have some connection to where you live to avoid like rich digital nomad type behaviour.

big fan of poor lost extraterrestrial behaviour

the digital nomad types in my experience remain culturally stuck to their home country and are not really interested in exploring other cultures beyond cheap costs and sunny beaches

I barely identify with the human race, never mind a nationality.

I looked up a few online dictionaries and what surprised me was how often the wording is about supporting one's country rather than loving it, Cambridge even had "willing to fight for it" in there. There are many things about Portugal that I love but I'm certainly not in the game of supporting a nation state so it's an easy no for me.

seems good to have some connection to where you live to avoid like rich digital nomad type behaviour.

Yes but then when I talk about bingeing Round The Horne everyone's like "wtf that's old and unfunny" :/

English people are generally the worst at appreciating the good English stuff.

Yes but then when I talk about bingeing Round The Horne everyone's like "wtf that's old and unfunny" :/

Everyone with no sense of humour that is.

Like Connolly, really. Many things to love about the country’s history and landscape and culture, will certainly argue with any British person on the subject, but Joyce and Connolly both had pointed criticisms that have persisted and seem truer every year that passes. Country by and for a capitalist class that’s only changed the names.

Connolly:

Ireland without her people is nothing to me, and the man who is bubbling over with love and enthusiasm for ‘Ireland’, and can yet pass unmoved through our streets and witness all the wrong and the suffering, the shame and the degradation wrought upon the people of Ireland, aye, wrought by Irishmen upon Irishmen and women, without burning to end it, is, in my opinion, a fraud and a liar in his heart, no matter how he loves that combination of chemical elements which he is pleased to call ‘Ireland’.

Joyce:

“Do you know what Ireland is? Ireland is the old sow that eats her farrow.”

There's adverts featuring Susan Calman for the Bank Of Scotland where she really leans into the Scottishness and I find it so embarrassing and exaggerated and unlikeable.

A certain parochial policeman has a great take on this, calls it cosplaying your own ethnicity for foreigners. We are awful for doing this as well.

US “patriotism” as it currently stands is “God Guns and Trump” yard signs, blaming immigrants for problems caused by billionaires, fear of “socialism “ and pretending that Kid Rock has any worth.

Yes, though definitely not of the flag-waving variety. And especially as it relates to opposing the USA these days--in sports, in trade, whatever.

Can you have patriotism without nationalism?

Resounding no.

Can you have patriotism without nationalism?

The usual normie response is "yes, you can love your country without denigrating others". I'm not so sure.

Actually normie is prob the wrong word there. The response I've most encountered, let's say.

Loving a country has always seemed weird to me, because countries are political fictions that are usually/always the result of various kinds of conquest and exploitation. Loving a community, a culture, I can see those because they come from the people who live in a place and share things with each other. That's a reasonable basis for affection. Lines on a map, sometimes but not always contiguous with geographic features, don't to me seem at all the same thing.

If you live in a small or isolated country then isn't your community/culture indivisible from your country? This is prompted by Cape Verde doing well in the World Cup and the fact that I'm going to Malta on holiday later in the year.

It's also complicated if, like Cabo Verde, you have a history of colonization and so national identity is tied into liberation from that.

Or if you're from a country people speculate about sympathetically.

I looked up a few online dictionaries and what surprised me was how often the wording is about supporting one's country rather than loving it, Cambridge even had "willing to fight for it"

This is how I understand Patriotism being used around here and in many parts of the West. Will you die for it?

Very funny to be asked that question when living in a country with badly distributed wealth, that doesn't give a shit for community, one full of racists and vile scum.

p. u. no thanks foh. the only good thing about USA was our cultural output— popular music and film. maybe a little tv, some NBA highlight reels, and mainly relegated to the second half of the 20th century. other than that catch a nuke, hogs.

Patriotism exists if at all for me in ways that have nothing to do with time or place - being expected to be patriotic because of sport/political event/historical commemoration has little emotional effect on me and will usually have a negating effect at best.

Genuine feelings of the above manifest for me in ways that are so irregular/personal/unexpected that will make little sense to other even like-minded people, never mind groups or indeed a community

I will die for the people, I will sure as hell not die for Uncle Sam

I wonder if my lack of attachment to any sense of "home" is also connected to having been a renter for all but nine months of my entire life. It's hard to feel connected to something that is never truly yours.

I just took my dog for his walk. There is a house on the next block where the guy spends a lot of time in his garage with the door open, blaring right wing talk radio. He has bitched at both my wife and me for letting our dog pee on his median strip, so we now tug the dog along to a spot down the block to pee, or cross the street entirely.

Today the guy’s driveway is festooned with about a dozen small flags. Most of my other neighbors have ICE OUT signs in their windows and yards. I’m sure he feels surrounded by “non-patriots.” I don’t know where I’m going with this story, how I’ve gotten to the point where the flags rankle me, but his performative patriotism rubs me the wrong way.

Wonder how many people who are patriots would say they aren't. Like if we could separate self-definition from another way of defining it.

*picks up musket* look i know its tempting call me a patriot *fires round at british soldier* but im telling you man *gores a charging brit with a bayonet* im not that kind of guy

I suppose I am pretty patriotic but then it's easy when you don't live in the country you're from and so aren't confronted day-to-day with the idiocy of your fellow country people, most of whom can't stand each other anyway, and the self-congratulatory/self-pitying crap that constitutes nationalism in that country.

I don't really get patriotism. The vast majority of people live where they live simply because it's where they were born or raised, which they had no say in. Places are just places.

you might pick up some affection for various aspects of life there along the way- if you didnt just solely associate the word or concept with the people you (correctly) dont like who call themselves patriots

its a jump but not impossible imo

I love lots of stuff about the country I live in, just as I love lots of stuff about other countries I have visited, or other cities or states, or how I like some fast food places more than others. It's all conditional, lol.

I am pacifist by temperament, anarchist by reason, and a deacon in a church where both are the norm. The only time I feel even a little "patriotic" is when I can bring up the fact that my home state led the Confederacy in rate of desertion, and ask why we don't build monuments to honor that fact.

Places are just places.

That's the beauty of it--we got places all over the place.

I'm a citizen of humanity maaaaaan

I'm a citizen of humanity maaaaaan

"Excuse me - are you Native?"

"To Earth? Yeah, why?"

I don't really get patriotism.

A few thoughts. Patriotism, by whatever name you call it, is mainly an extension of one's feeling of connection to people and places, which is a natural and normal human feeling. The result of one's feelings of attachment and love could be described as a set of concentric circles, with one's society at a much greater remove than a lover, a child, a spouse, one's friends, one's neighbors, and so on, who occupy the nearer circles. The best forms of patriotism are dispassionate and focused on community.

For most of us the more remote circles inspire increasingly less strong attachment, simply because our lives are filled with the nearest circles. There are at least two circumstances that tend to strengthen that attachment to something as remote as one's nation. One is war, because it comes with the threat of violence against our family, our home, and our near environs, but any effective means of defense requires solidarity with those much larger circles, like one's nation, because they are better capable of prosecuting a defense.

The other is as a bolster to an insecure person's self-identity, by asserting that the great accomplishments and wisdom of one's society or nation reflects positively on oneself. It's a lot like sports fandom, a kind of borrowed feeling of large accomplishments.

I often think about the fact that more than 50% of Americans don't have passports. (It used to be more like 60%, now it's about 52%.) And many of those people no doubt consider themselves great patriots - they'll tell you they love America. But, like, what is that love based on? They have no basis for comparison! I don't consider myself a particularly well-traveled person - I've only been to nine non-US countries, and that list includes Canada and Mexico. But compared with half of America, I'm some kind of globetrotter! And there are several countries I've visited that I would happily have stayed in forever.

it's mad actually how many have prob never left america. and the way they go on you'd think they knew a lot about a wide range of things.

There's no doubt a relationship between patriotism and provincialism. It's amazing how much you can learn about (for example) this country just by going to other *states*, let alone leaving the country, but I suspect most Americans don't do much of that, either. Then again, I suspect the same sort of thing is probably true in plenty of countries, even in places that are much easier to travel around by public transportation than most places in America.

There are aspects or places or qualities of the US i really love, but it has nothing to do with any trad notions of what this country is. We were founded with aome nice words which ran interference for some bullshit that could have been nipped in the bud early but was allowed to grow and flourish. It’s hard to work up much love for a country that from the beginning was talking out of two sides of its mouth.

im not really into countries

you havent seen mine babe

Imagine there's no... nah

As deems will confirm, no matter how much an American wants to pretend to be something else, they are always deeply and unmistakably American, for good or ill. We may as well have a face tattoo that says "Greetings from the USA". For all that, this fact says nothing about how good or bad the individual in question might be.

no

i personally have an eagle teardrop

besides the tattoo americans can also be identified by how we all wear tshirts that say i dont swim in your toilet so dont piss in my pool

i was watching segment about world cup visitors to america buying western clothes cowboy boots and whatnot that was pretty cute reminded me of this english guy i knew in colorado who when he moved there had his english clothes which were like button down shirts and tortoise shell glasses obvs many americans dress like that too so its not like it was out of place at all but after a while he started picking up some western wear items and it was funny to watch him realize that no one cared if he wore them it was normal and before long he was rolling around town in a cowboy hat just lovin life, personally i have never worn any cowboy stuff but it was pretty endearing to see him get it into it

now that i think about it im sure that ive had a western shirt or two with the mother of pearl snaps but thats so entry level

Looking forward to the ultimate and inevitable Los Angeles display of patriotism - errant fireworks landing in palm trees and setting them on fire.

the burning palm is a potent symbol

very G!YBE

I’m a perpetual outsider, living in Australia, which is a colonial host to outsiders. I find patriotism deeply unsettling. I will tear up when I hear ‘I am Australian’ by Bruce Woodley, and I’ll play ‘the band played waltzing Matilda’ on ANZAC day and try an be out of the country on invasion day. I like australia in its diversity and hate Australian nationalism. 75% of people have at least one grandparent born overseas, no one non-indigenous is far from the immigrant experience. We’re at our best when we remember that and our worst when we wave the fucking flags with the Union Jack and the stars on it.

I’ve long since felt not at home in the UK and I’m currently being an outsider in Japan. I feel good here because there’s no pressure to belong, because I never can belong, but people appreciate that I can speak the language and try and follow social norms.

I’m a perpetual outsider, living in Australia, which is a colonial host to outsiders. I find patriotism deeply unsettling. I will tear up when I hear ‘I am Australian’ by Bruce Woodley, and I’ll play ‘the band played waltzing Matilda’ on ANZAC day and try an be out of the country on invasion day. I like australia in its diversity and hate Australian nationalism. 75% of people have at least one grandparent born overseas, no one non-indigenous is far from the immigrant experience. We’re at our best when we remember that and our worst when we wave the fucking flags with the Union Jack and the stars on it.

I’ve long since felt not at home in the UK and I’m currently being an outsider in Japan. I feel good here because there’s no pressure to belong, because I never can belong, but people appreciate that I can speak the language and try and follow social norms.

I feel good here because there’s no pressure to belong, because I never can belong, but people appreciate that I can speak the language and try and follow social norms.

My fave Aussie/Japanese story I heard, from an Australian who had been working in Japan, was that he was really impressed with how patient and polite they were about his rudimentary Japanese and understanding of their culture, so much so that he felt really comfortable and at ease in the Tokyo office. A lot of the time they interacted with him in English, but he did the best he could otherwise. Then, after three years working in Japan, they called him into a meeting and, still very politely, informed him that everyone agreed that three years was enough and it was time to finally learn how to speak Japanese.

no matter how much an American wants to pretend to be something else, they are always deeply and unmistakably American

In my experience, perhaps because Americans tend to travel to other countries so relatively infrequently, we often get mistaken for Canadians.

i mean theres a lot more americans traveling the world than canadians due to you know the country being ten times as big

europeans are good at clocking americans prob due to having to process subtle white national differences in everyday life once you hit asia tho theyre hopeless if you ask someone to guess where youre from they just start saying random white countries

you know who is incredible at identifying americans is the quebecers which is interesting cause i dont think anglophone candians are as good at it obviously if they hear an accent or or see you waving an college football pennant then its obvious but quebecers can easily differentiate anglophone canadains and americans on sight

i watched a youtube of this guy talking about how to dress appropriately when traveling europe and of course baseball caps came up and he was all europeans do sometimes wear baseball caps but its usually a yankees or dodgers hat, that is some funny shit truly through the looking glass, tho i think he did say a new york or LA cap which is i think is how europeans think of them theyre not even aware that theyre team hats, anyway i do not mind if people can tell im american ive seen americans trying to pose as canadians before really some cowardly stuff youre undercover on your vacation lol

anyway i pray for europeans to normalize baseball caps and athleisure both of which used to be considered slobbish in america, now were all loving the slob life, why are you wearing a belt thats outdated technology, jeans youre wearing heavy restrictive work wear to your email job when you could be gliding around in weightless microfibers

obvs in northern europe the sun never really shines so you dont need baseball caps but the nice parts of europe they can be really handy, and you can get ones that have cute graphics and whatnot, my current daily driver is from a nearby lake and has a loon on it

europeans are good at clocking americans

The fact that they're twice as loud as everybody else is usually a giveaway.

im not loud

You'll pass for Canadian then.

ive recently learned that im technically canadian so that could be why

I was in England last summer, and I hadn't been in probably 20 years and it was pretty amazing to me how American and not dressed up everyone looked compared to the last time

That was my impression in London last month.

its happening

obvs it is true tho that americans on average are louder than europeans, tho americans are not the loudest people of the world, id give us an 8

yeah, guys, have you been around a murder of Cubans?

Cubans marvel at how quiet and courteous and proper Americans are.

lol

i do think some european cultures could benefit from more yelling and carrying on, but i will admit just normal loud talking in non carrying on situations does kinda bother me

I invite you to my family's Noche Buena.

Be sure to take your baseball cap off when we're at the table.

i do think some european cultures could benefit from more yelling and carrying on, but i will admit just normal loud talking in non carrying on situations does kinda bother me

Yes it's the talking that's loud, yelling and carrying on is the same in most cultures.

idk you go to a french bar and theyre all just quietly talking amongst themselves, i greatly admire the french but i would grant them a lil more carrying on

Be sure to take your baseball cap off when we're at the table.

― boners for bombs (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, July 5, 2026 10:35 AM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

im not a barbarian

idk you go to a french bar and theyre all just quietly talking amongst themselves, i greatly admire the french but i would grant them a lil more carrying on

― lag∞n, Sunday, July 5, 2026

They're miffed that they can't smoke indoors anymore

that is sad for them, tho speaking as someone who lived through the ny crossover my god its so much better, tho tbf i never smoked so

Whenever I read practical fashion advice in advance of a trip I encounter lots of "don't wear shorts, don't wear caps, blah blah," and then inevitably the next comment is from a local saying "if it's hot, dress for the weather, plenty of people wear shorts, etc." The big giveaway for Americans specifically these days, used to be backpacks, but lately I hear it's water bottles. Which makes sense, because Americans are very hydrated and lots of places (esp. Europe) are averse to free water.

yeah in the comments of the video i mentioned there were tons of europeans being like who cares how you dress just dont be an asshole which imho is really the main thing to consider, i would like to be clear that i was just watching the video for entertainment purposes im wearing shorts and ball caps in europe all day baby it cant be helped if its too futuristic for them

leisurewear is the natural costume of swathes of the UK at this point

national costume, too

i would like to be clear that i was just watching the video for entertainment purposes

Was this a 'Wolters World' video? He does stuff like that but it's usually just on the right side of well-meaning without condescension.

natural costume

That's one way to stay cool! But wear sunblock.

it was! xp yeah the guy is cool well meaning just trying to be considerate etc

guidebooks used to say “women, cover up in churches”, and then I’m at Montserrat outside Barcelona and I see a young woman wearing ass-baring short shirts.

My daughter's friend got yelled at for posing for a picture incorrectly/inappropriately in Qatar. Arms outstretched, iirc? There's a scale of strictness, that's for sure.

yeah some places you def want to be more careful about running afoul of local laws and norms

When I was in Beijing there was a blogger who wrote a post about how the "journalistic distance" adopted by most western writers about other countries meant that they only ever experienced culture on a superficial level and therefore their takes would inevitably be either glib clichés. It was a good post, unfortunately he wrote it as a response to people reacting badly to his stories about having "happy ending" massages.

Not necessarily a “patriot” but I am grateful to have been AFAB in a place where they don’t drown baby girls or force them en masse into lifelong servitude, at least not most of the time. There are some protections people have in the US that people around the world don’t enjoy. I’m grateful for that.

Ya idk, being an unharassed fag and currently subsisting on a massive free paid-for-by-my-own-tax-contributions rehab program definitely has me sweating at least one (1) bead of patriotism. I said for years even before this accident that I was 1000% pro any action that put more power into the hands of the people to whom this land actually belongs-- so long as the hospitals stay open, it's my one caveat.

there are definitely things that the U.S. does better than every other country but saying that doesn't mean patriotism to me

overthrowing foreign governments?

NV, what constitutes patriotism in your neck of the world? jingoism? or something better than that?

i think patriotism self-described is on a spectrum with jingoism, exceptionalism, and, depending on the nation in question, xenophobia and outright racism. i tend to think this is an unavoidable element of the concept of the nation state. i'm not a fan of nation states.

i was thinking earlier about whether a state founded on and adhering to principles of equality, justice and genuine democracy might be something that one could feel pride in. that's irrelevant really tho because i doubt that state has ever existed.

and even then i think patriotism implies some expression of pride, which is a weird emotion to me at the best of times and especially weird applied to things that are pure chance like whereabouts of birth

i don't think "quite liking where you live" meets the bar for how "patriotism" is used as a concept

No more than criticising where you live while not discussing your place of birth or upbringing or national identity says anything about whether you are a patriot or not, I guess.

Again I kinda feel this thread ends up being do you believe patriotism is something to aspire to rather than actually digging in to any tendencies people might have towards the same, hidden or otherwise.

I had a really good sub for lunch from a chain named after my home state, so now my patriotism tank is all topped up again.

lol i have a terrible tendency to start thinking "what does it mean to believe a thing" in many circumstances, and on the whole i'm not sure it's meaningful to talk about belief outside of things people actually do - in some circumstances "saying something" is equivalent to "doing something" i think but not in all circumstances

This is the area we are in here I think. There's an obvious comparison but I don't want to make it, lol, blind alley.

The other thing to consider is that, at least for Americans, contrary to all those asshole "love it or leave it" types, it's really fucking hard to move out of this country. We're basically trapped here.

just went swimming in a nice lake god bless america

i want to go back to the earlier part where the yanks were googling how to behave abroad and taking advice from what i can only presume are other yanks which we wont get into but what i want to know is what is the fascination with finding out whether hotels have washcloths, which was second only to "will i fall over dead if i rent a car in thos country" on fb groups i happened to have reason to peruse once

"what patriotism is used for" isnt irrelevant but its only one slice of the portion imo

some americans are very devoted to the washcloth lifestyle but not all theres some cultural/class/etc divide there but im not sure exactly where the fault lies i know black folks like the washcloth, think maybe it might be starting to fade with the wide adoption of liquid soap tho

Some Americans are addicted to drinking four glasses per person per course.

of water

its white and ruddy americans visiting ireland where ive encountered it but i wont be overspeaking anyones lived experience ofc

xps through a washcloth, or they are using it to wipe their mouths, or what

Wringing the washcloth into their mouths

Dunk it in the glass then tip your head back and

its important for americans to have waterboarding supplies on hand at all times you never know when you will encounter the enemy

this was a hagar strip once im sure of it

the viking not sammy

^ doing my bit for the cross culture

my grandfather loved hagar he would read it out loud to everyone at the breakfast table and do a big canned laugh, redeye was the one he named his boat after tho

Lol fucking hell

Haha sorry wrong thread carry on though it might be an appropriate response

hel

rather than actually digging in to any tendencies people might have towards the same, hidden or otherwise.

I think Portugal has a ton of great writers, musicians and directors that should be better known, and sometimes try to do something to make that happen, is that the kind of thing you're looking for?

I do consider myself a patriot, although probably not in the way that the loudest patriots would recognize. I often worry that I'm not doing enough for my country. I vote every couple years, of course, and try to be informed about that. I work for a nonprofit institution whose mission is one of service to the nation, so I consider that an aspect of patriotic service. If people tell me that the American flag or fireworks are bad, I tell them to take a flying fuck. I enjoy traditional patriotic music like America, the Beautiful and God Bless America and My Country Tis of Thee and stuff like that.

Given the kinds of awfulness that certain aspects of America have been responsible for, both on the homefront and around the world, I don't necessarily hold it against people who think badly of us. But I do think that those of us who are inclined toward criticism of the status quo are likely being encouraged away from patriotism through Russian and Chinese propaganda as a means of strategically weakening our country as a whole.

The American flag is ugly and poorly designed, the Canadian flag is much better.
Fireworks reduce air quality and frighten pets

go on then

“Soak it in heroin doc and I’ll suck it” etc

“Soak it in heroin doc and I’ll suck it” etc

Etc

I do consider myself a patriot, although probably not in the way that the loudest patriots would recognize. I often worry that I'm not doing enough for my country. I vote every couple years, of course, and try to be informed about that. I work for a nonprofit institution whose mission is one of service to the nation, so I consider that an aspect of patriotic service. If people tell me that the American flag or fireworks are bad, I tell them to take a flying fuck. I enjoy traditional patriotic music like America, the Beautiful and God Bless America and My Country Tis of Thee and stuff like that.

Given the kinds of awfulness that certain aspects of America have been responsible for, both on the homefront and around the world, I don't necessarily hold it against people who think badly of us. But I do think that those of us who are inclined toward criticism of the status quo are likely being encouraged away from patriotism through Russian and Chinese propaganda as a means of strategically weakening our country as a whole.

Love how patriots are this delusional, makes it easier to ignore them.

i do love the "anyone who disagrees must be in thrawl to the Russians/Chinese" take

If people tell me that the American flag or fireworks are bad, I tell them to take a flying fuck.

Have you considered you might be encouraged towards fireworks fandom by Chinese propaganda?

all that patriotic yay America music is almost as bad as the flag, arguably worse since at least if I close my eyes and listen to the US flag flapping in the wind I can pretend it’s a better designed flag with a different color scheme.

peace man post has to be trolling right?

hope so!

I mean one of those songs is literally the UK national anthem with different words

need a "Do you consider yourself a troll?" thread to find out

Genuinely not trolling. I don't know the UK national anthem.

you do know it though

Yes, I just went to look it up. Apparently My Country Tis of Thee's melody was taken from the UK one. One of these I learned as a kindergartner and one of them I've heard on maybe 2 occasions as an adult.

"God Bless the U.S.A" stole it's tune from the Eton Boating Song too

I don't know either of those. I'm talking like, older patriotic songs. Not country music.

xp ah okay fair enough, I knew that from childhood because my (UK) parents thought it was bizarre/ironic

Fun fact: the tune of "God Save the King" has been used (at times) for anthems by Switzerland, Prussia, Russia, Norway, Liechtenstein, and Germany.

(Plus, as you might imagine, all the Commonwealth countries like New Zealand, Australia, etc.)

Lots of Americans are what I consider "defensively patriotic", where they truly do not have any real love for the USA, and aren't the type that wear flag-emblazoned outfits, hold convos during the national anthem, but still respond to every criticism with the same gritted-teeth venom that your Joe Bob 1776 cosplayer does.

I was one of those until basically 9/11. Slightly left of center, aggressively anti-racist, naive af on other issues, but really unusually bothered by anti-American sentiment, including throwing a hissy fit when Rage Against the Machine put upside down flags on their amp on SNL.

9/11 happening didn't actually galvanize me further, it actually soured me on patriotism. I'd led a charmed, sheltered life in high school, in a conservative bubble, and became horrified when people i knew were saying things like "Nuke 'em" re: Afghanistan. People in ny orbit just became really vile with their racism and hate in ways they had concealed before (like my previously sweet cousin sharing Burn a Quran Day events on FB).

So the naivety melted away quickly and my leftward drift became sudden and severe to where I was a socialist by 24. Now, in the best of times, I do not care about the place I was born in terms of pride, I just care about making it livable for all people.

In the worst of times, I outright hate this country with all of the vitriol I can muster. Which is where I'm at now. Still want to make it livable for all, but with deep-seated disdain

Xxxposts our national anthem is also the UK's "To Anacreon in Heaven" wuth new words

The podcast The Rest Is History just did an excellent series on national anthems, if you're into anthem lore.

There should be an anthem store where new countries can purchase anthems.

xp I did not know that, thanks!

i do love the "anyone who disagrees must be in thrawl to the Russians/Chinese" take

― Camaraderie at Arms Length, 06 July 2026 14:18 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

we have a long and storied collection of "anyone who disagrees is x" takes tbf

We did it before Twitter even

But I do think that those of us who are inclined toward criticism of the status quo are likely being encouraged away from patriotism through Russian and Chinese propaganda as a means of strategically weakening our country as a whole.

Please say sike or I’m going to presume you are a rUsSiAn or cHiNeSe troll who is intent on making me even the more anti-USA

the

There is a form of boring, knee-jerk anti-Americanism that can be annoying, not because it's offensive, but because it's low-effort, low-quality trolling, but the last ten years have eroded any interest I have in criticizing it

few national anthems are as distinctive as La Marseillaise, the Deutschlandlied, Japan’s and the anglosphere’s drinking songs. most sound like music by the yard. nations should play around with the genre, unusual instruments, maybe one with car horns, vocals are death metal growling, four minutes of silence, etc.

GSTK/MCTOT is the dreariest tune ever written, do not understand why so many countries use it

The first things I wrote in music composition class sounded like this. Just sounds like a warmup scale

It looks like the honor of being the most anti-patriotic poster on this thread is going to be about a twenty-six way tie. This is not surprising for ilx, but the discussion doesn't seem to be opening up any new thoughts on the subject. It's more like a roll call.

next week, do you enjoy stubbing your toe?

Boring otm, which is why I am trying to start a thing where nothing changes about "The Star-Spangled Banner" except that now you have to accompany it with the motions of "the Chicken Dance."

What so proudly we

https://i.postimg.cc/3JXdQZgL/Screenshot-20260706-115135-Chrome.jpg

the double jerk-off id pretty much our national dance

https://cdn.bsky.app/img/feed_thumbnail/plain/did:plc:w4mumltio4x5yohskj2mo64c/bafkreiglovbugoyl7wv4yjs6vja22fv6m6qklm256clbqumtbqsxjmlx7a

perhaps the best quality of ilx in these situations is being displayed— refusing to argue with someone’s dumb post, and instead riffing and laughing at it both directly and indirectly.

i don't agree that Russia and China are the reason people look down on American patriotism, but i didn't think peace man's post was dumb

If people tell me that the American flag or fireworks are bad, I tell them to take a flying fuck.

Thank you for your service.

the american flag design is not great but i do like flags in general and it is a flag

Flying fucks are expensive and elitist fwiw

yeah just fly a flag like a normal person

I like Brazil’s flag. Nice distinctive design.

I do consider myself a patriot, although probably not in the way that the loudest patriots would recognize. I often worry that I'm not doing enough for my country. I vote every couple years, of course, and try to be informed about that. I work for a nonprofit institution whose mission is one of service to the nation, so I consider that an aspect of patriotic service. If people tell me that the American flag or fireworks are bad, I tell them to take a flying fuck. I enjoy traditional patriotic music like America, the Beautiful and God Bless America and My Country Tis of Thee and stuff like that.

Given the kinds of awfulness that certain aspects of America have been responsible for, both on the homefront and around the world, I don't necessarily hold it against people who think badly of us. But I do think that those of us who are inclined toward criticism of the status quo are likely being encouraged away from patriotism through Russian and Chinese propaganda as a means of strategically weakening our country as a whole.

This is a copypasta none of us recognise right

i will say in defense of the american flag because it has two strong contrasting motifs it does lend itself to being applied to various non flag forms swimsuits paper plates guns etc while remaining easily recognizable

I like Brazil’s flag. Nice distinctive design.

― OG Bobby Sacamano (will), Monday, July 6, 2026 1:05 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah extremely sick flag

I'm waiting for the city edition flag.

It's just a shame the Brazil flag has "order and progress" written on it, two very lame values.

Whatever embers of patriotism I had for the US didn’t survive Reagan.

Very weirdly, learning about the lynching of two of my great-grandfathers made me feel like my family history was connected to the history of the United States and made me feel more American than I had since childhood. This was rather quickly stamped out by the Trump presidency.

At this point I exist as a citizen but I feel little to no fondness for this or any political state; it seems entirely beside the point of human existence to me. I reserve love and loyalty for my family, which by proxy means I do not want to fuck up the country in which they live, but the country itself is not an entity I feel particularly attached to outside of international sports where the allegiance feels harmless.

Great post

i don't agree that Russia and China are the reason people look down on American patriotism, but i didn't think peace man's post was dumb

Cool, here are the lyrics to Born Against’s “Half Mast”

When freedom is in hiding from morality
when you've finally scrubbed this Great land clean
of those values you hold in such high esteem
when you've Finally divorced the numbers from the names
we can return to your good old Days
bound and gagged by sex and race
chained by family crazed by god while

We raise the flag shout down the past the stars and stripes stream by at Half mast your eyes well up with tears and yeah so do mine

I never knew the High price of hypocrisy
so pledge allegiance to the death penalty
believe in Your drug war
bow down to the tv set
you need to cultivate that apathy that Swells inside your throat

raise the flag shout down the past your stars and
Stripes stream by at half mast your eyes well up with tears and yeah so do Mine

half mast dehumanized
half mast divided
half mast overloaded
half mast Who the fuck cares
so long as you can sleep well under the iron fist

I think the only two city flags I know offhand are Chicago’s (pleasant, decent design) and New Orleans (ok but would be significantly improved by changing the colors to purple gold & green imo)

pleasant colors

GSTK/MCTOT is the dreariest tune ever written, do not understand why so many countries use it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9nnnM-__JQ

It's just a shame the Brazil flag has "order and progress" written on it, two very lame values.

― a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Monday, July 6, 2026 1:18 PM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah they need to take inspiration from this lula quote and change it to barbecue and beer

In January, Brazil’s president Lula addressed some supporters in São Paulo. “They think that the poor don’t have rights,” he told them. When sworn in as president, he promised that he would fight for their rights – “the right to barbecue with family on the weekend, to buy a little picanha [a cut of beef], to that piece of picanha with the fat dipped in flour, and to a glass of cold beer”.

Interesting, cooked a picanha a few times but never did the flour on fat thing.

yeah I def dig it in spite of the wordng. I suppose they’re vague enough to mean something different to say a fan of the military dictatorship, or Bolsonaristas, or Lula liberals. but generally speaking words on flags = 👎

One of the worst flags is Mozambique, it doesn't have any words but they decided to put an AK47 on it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mozambique.svg

haha omg. respect for the lack of pretense i guess.

Mozambique should dip the flag in flour + picanha juice.

It's just a shame the Brazil flag has "order and progress" written on it, two very lame values.

― a ZX spectrum is haunting Europe (Daniel_Rf), Monday, July 6, 2026 1:18 PM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Inspired by Auguste Comte, the founder of positivism!

the united nations should do something for a change and give someone $$$ if they adopt a blingee national flag

“The Stars and Stripes, brought to you by Kalshi 🫡”

we have a lot of Brazilians in Orlando, so one of the Best Buys in metro Orlando had a poster for a long time with a Brazilian flag and it said "Ordem online".

I think they thought it was clever, because they had invoked part of the Brazilian flag into an advertisement for ordering online, but I don't think the clowns who made it realized that 'ordem' was a noun and 'order' in the context of procuring things online was a verb.

Are you sure they weren’t calling for section 230 to be repealed?

Well, the Portuguese verb "ordenar" is more like cataloguing, for online orders you'd use encomendar.

xpost

i know the thread is about america (and brazil?) but my boring answer as a canadian: i’ve become much more patriotic than i was ten years ago. living in three different provinces (quebec, ontario, british columbia), briefly living in the states (california and ohio) (both of which i enjoyed a lot) gave me perspective, and more appreciation and pride in the country. i often find i am almost irrationally proud of culturally canadian things that i maybe used to secretly like but found too un-cool, like the music of blue rodeo, or the paintings of the group of seven

i still think it’s important to be a rootless cosmopolitan at heart, and to resist thinking only in terms of the unilateral strategic interests of one country. i’m not one of the (many) canadians that boycotts american products or refuses to travel there in protest of trump’s threats and tariffs. i think that’s a bad tit-for-tat type of patriotism. i also didn’t care for the smug attitude canadians had during the george w bush administration

The group of seven are awesome. I saw the museum outside Toronto many years ago and thoroughly enjoyed it.

the McMichael Collection

i know the thread is about america

It is?

I took it to be for all of the globe

thats just a formal canadian intro

can't say i really love America, i'm more proud of belonging to dub nation, tbh.

thats fuckin valid

the thread is not about america, nor is it anywhere suggested as such

i was just answering the poll question, sorry

Totally understand the inclination to love where you're from and not the state it's part of

Patriotism to me is less about unearned birthright pride (i.e. what’s up y’all I come from the same place as house, techno, hip-hop, and the Saturn V rocket, therefore I kick ass) and far, far more about a commitment to doing my best to make my own tiny contribution to the canon of human achievements associated with my birthplace such that folks from other joints might one day read of us, or visit the ruins, or watch some videos, and say “yo, this was where they did that cool thing?” and I can say I took part. That’s my version.

It’s not like being proud because your dad is the fucking sheriff. Fuck that.

It’s being proud because you work hard so your children can be the best version of themselves. More like that instead.

Also our flag has THE MOST stars suck it Brazil

Respect to Canada though that flag has the chonky leaf to rule them all

NZ had a shot at even more leaf on flag action but decided to stick with tradition rmde

thats just a formal canadian intro

― lag∞n, Monday, 6 July 2026 19:22 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

lmao

She said "tell me are you a patriot"
and I said
"I am tonight"

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

when I go to protests/marches etc, I bring a smallish California flag... that is where my loyalties lie, but I'm not a patriot

I like Tom’s answer a lot. I was just in the Kyoto railway museum and one of their prize exhibit is a locomotive from the 1890s built by Kitson and company in Manchester next to a model of James Watt’s original beam engine. I’m now in Hong Kong and have just passed one of their ancient British trams, those are some good British inventions to be proud of.

yes

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

nice

Last night I read a really good essay about John Dos Passos' U.S.A. trilogy, which I love. Overall, the essay rekindled my love for the books and I think I'll pull them back off the shelf soon. (I own the Library of America edition.) But the introductory paragraphs really tripped me up, especially the bolded phrase:

My neighbor, a kind elderly Jewish woman with a Jack Russell Terrier named Fauci, knocked on our door last week, offering an American flag stapled to a little balsa wood stick. It was a version of the Betsy Ross flag, with thirteen stars in a circle and “250” in the center of the circle. As “block captain” of the neighborhood association, it was her job to distribute these free flags to everyone on our cul-de-sac. I suppose they had ordered a few dozen of these flags off of Amazon to help everyone get into the semiquincentennial spirit.

I took the flag gratefully. We don’t have any decorations. Some of our neighbors have been going all out with the flags and tricolor bunting. Dorothy told me that not everyone offered had accepted a flag from her.

“I think because it says “250” people think it’s Trumpy,” she said.

“That’s ridiculous,” I said. “It’s the 250th birthday of America for everyone. What a shame that it’s being associated with Trump.” I feel strongly that the left is foolish for ceding patriotism to the right.

But I understand. I have only lately become a patriot. I grew up in the shadow of 9/11, the Iraq War, Bush II, in a liberal suburban bubble. I associated “supporting the troops” with mindless idiocy, the stars and stripes with rural racists. Only fools and demagogues drape themselves in the flag, I thought. As I got older, I went further left and discovered what felt like the hidden curriculum of American history: Noam Chomsky, redlining, Fred Hampton, COINTELPRO, the Pentagon Papers. Through a love of folk music I learned about the labor movement, the Haymarket riot, the Ludlow Massacre, the Wobblies. I was ashamed to be American. The USA was synonymous with oppression, imperialism, rapacious industry.

All of these things are true. They are part of our history. And yet the United States of America remains the greatest country in the world, a deeply flawed place that is many places in one, a place of infinite possibility and infinite disappointment, a country that tries and endlessly fails to live up to its ideals, but in the trying proves itself worthy of the hopes that generations of immigrants and native-born sons have placed on its shores. This is an enormous country; it is big enough to hold all these competing realities and histories at once. It’s big enough to contain my ambivalence.

Why do people persist in using this particular phrase? It's an unthinking recitation, like "the sky is blue" or something. And yet it's so easily disproved or contradicted that it drives me a little bit insane to encounter it, over and over and over again. Like, show me any kind of evidence for your claim. Make a list of things that make America "the greatest country in the world." There is no doubt that I will say of at least some of your selections, Yes, those are good things. But in what way do they make America "the greatest country in the world"? Do other countries not have those same things? In what specific ways are other countries inferior to the United States of America? What exactly are they lacking? Make me a second list of other countries' deficiencies, and maybe I'll say, Yes, it's too bad France doesn't have Waffle House, or whatever. But when a seemingly otherwise intelligent person drops an anti-thought cliché onto the page/screen like that, it's fucking depressing.

I feel the same way when people— in this thread no less— attribute inventions by people living in the US to the country as a whole.

Anyway, agreed.

I also agree it’s trite nonsense. I have way too many colleagues from other nations that I respect tremendously to pretend that my home is somehow magical. We do have the Grand Canyon though, which was obviously invented by Americans.

I do kinda think the USA might be the WEIRDEST country on earth, however - we measure things weird, we record dates weird, we govern ourselves weird, and we definitely throw our money at some weird ass ideas sometimes

comparing america to ancient rome is a cliche but i do think theres some truth to it a country that succeeds through the power of lunacy and violence

they had gladiators, we have the Rich Housewives of Utah

i do conceive of usa as a creed and a project. i am stuck in it. i think it is worthwhile, for many reasons. if i did not, i would object more actively to defeat it, or work realistically to leave it.

there are enough histories and events to validate whatever the fuck you want probly.

i am not a patriot and never will be. i do find myself understanding why people are though, why people have always been. it's an instance of people wanting to be part of something larger than themselves. it gives people meaning and structure. it's an easy route to feeling a sense of belonging. they're on the team. i don't find the same meaning in it, and i think it's transparently foolish when considering what a nation-state actually is at any level. you can tell someone that all you want and it's not gonna change a fuckin thing. except make you more bitter. i don't know. for whatever reason it's harder for me to make judgments about other people's patriotism. i just don't want to talk to them about it, that's for sure. when people try to bring up how much they love america with me or whatever, criiiinge. like, good for you. crazy weather we've been having, right?

I absolutely get that too, for me it’s “hip hop is fucking dope, can you believe it’s from across the street?” not so much “Huntsville Alabama rules, we built the Patriot missile!”

…To be both a bit on the nose and also confusing at the same time.

Essentially I think Real Patriotism means loving the achievement first, then being pleasantly surprised you were born next door to its foundation; Bullshit Patriotism is waving the flag first and then claiming credit for the achievement.

it’s a creed, with some just and some virtuous accomplishments, not a street with cool songs or vicious missiles.

Sure! Whatever!

i do conceive of usa as a creed and a project.

Dunno if I'm just expressing a platitude here but this is one thing I hear regularly from Americans and no one else, like tons of countries have exceptionalism (UK, Japan, France - probably most countries, when I get to think of it) but no one else views it with such a sense of mission, I couldn't possibly think of Portugal as a creed or a project...at my most high faulting I might think of humanity that way, I guess.

Hope that doesn't sound dismissive, it's just an enormous cultural difference and so alien to me that I find it fascinating.

i mean i conceive of the US as a creed and a project too, just one that was bankrupt from the start and must be destroyed/stopped

I think of Ireland that way, but the project and creed is pints.

lol

Obviously a trouncing, but a much closer result than I had anticipated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf9oj5clY5A

another country that thinks of itself as a project is israel

otm about this idea of country as a mission

deeply strange

i mean all countries have their ideas of who they are and how they perform that so ultimately its kind of the same but also clearly theres a difference

The historical circumstances of how the US came to be is obv a big part of it but as an outsider I can't help feeling there is a lot of retconning and mythology in the American project

lol maybe a tad

(xp) tbf founding a country to avoid paying tax is pretty unusual.

tbf taxes have often been a contentious issue in colonial situations, salt tax in india and so forth

In Sherwood Forest too

especially there

tbf, there are elements of the US that are both pretty distinct from a lot of peers and clearly tied back to foundational myths / shared beliefs in what the country stands for. With the obvious caveats, most people do kind of believe that anyone can become an American. There's a comparatively high acceptance of both legal and undocumented immigration. Any attempts to mandate English as a national language for areas like citizenship have been rejected. For better or worse, individual rights are pretty well protected (with the flip-side of individual responsibility being socially, legally, economically, etc, enforced). 'You can't force people to learn English as it's un-American' means something coherent in a way that it doesn't in the UK, Australia, Canada (excl Quebec), etc.

I did once see a Canadian right wing meme that was like "we have two official languages, english and french, speak one of them or get out!" and it struck me how feeble that sounded when compared to the "speak english or die" bigotry elsewhere in the anglosphere - come on, you already have two, might as well give in to the others...

tons of countries have exceptionalism (UK, Japan, France - probably most countries, when I get to think of it) but no one else views it with such a sense of mission, I couldn't possibly think of Portugal as a creed or a project

A lot of countries passed through their mission/creed/project phase hundreds of years ago, when they were actively colonizing/enslaving other parts of the world. It's mostly been abandoned in the modern era, while the US is still at it.

if it's not, what is it, unperson? if it's simply a system of rules to apply power to control people and space in the moment, the SECOND that you devise a way to do that, a creed is born.

i think the US - maybe not solely- is quite clearly in a phase of marching on towards something where other countries have settled in and are merely housekeeping at this point

i do think the u.s. put together a particularly powerful foundation vibe, sort of a mix of religious awakening / new startism / yearning at its most elemental. but under a powerful creed people get the idea that anyone outside of it is dirt they have every right to just play with. frankly i'm of the opinion that people believing in a creed is a huge 'don't go there' signal for me.

i think the US - maybe not solely- is quite clearly in a phase of marching on towards something where other countries have settled in and are merely housekeeping at this point

― Wichita Referee's Assistant (darraghmac), Friday, July 10, 2026 4:04 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

definitely. although it's also kind of at a point where it can't march on anywhere else so there's this huge cultural crisis happening because of it.

Yes. Strangely enough I don't really see this sense of mission in other newer countries either, even those that seem fiercely patriotic. It doesn't seem like India or Nigeria view themselves as projects...or even Australia.

Israel is a good point tho.

xposts

xpost

i think there's a direct relationship between how zealous and brilliantly crazy a country's sense of mission is and how much violence it commits. it's almost like the zeal requires the violence.

I guess Hindutva is the project and India is the territory. Similarly, you have an increasing divergence between the American Project as a semi-authentic expression of national purpose (liberal interventionism, a haven for the persecuted, an example to the world, etc) and America First as a nativist, expansionist expression that barely even pretends to believe in any of the rest.

must say my sense of “project” goes no further than the rights of persons in it and “mission” as a term for what this is is not appropriate for the tasks except in the most limited sense

as soon as you are gardening with sufficient scope to maintain the rights of the whole garden you become an architect

Every organized effort, such as a country, is a project. House keeping is a project. Calling these things “projects” is sometimes done to make them sound uniquely important. They way “experiment” is being used is *blows rasberry*

i wouldn't call myself a patriot, no. america is... something i struggle with.

as much as i'd love to see a post-american world, i look around me and i don't see it happening. too many people are too invested and it's not like i have something i can sell people on. what am i supposed to say, the dictatorship of the proletariat? there are structural issues.

one of the criticisms of america is that americans seem to want everyone to be american... i'd say that i want an america that's _open_ to everyone. i don't think of america as a _people_. i think putting "america" on this particular mindset is very arrogant and presumptuous and i don't personally agree with it, but a lot of people i respect are doing good things in the name of "america". i depend on them, and...

i don't know, that supreme court thread, i read justice jackson's concurrence and wow, here it is in a supreme court decision. two americas. the first america didn't and doesn't recognize me, didn't and doesn't recognize a lot of people, and the second one... the way i read it, it is for everyone. do i trust a new colossus? not really. if it's going to lift its lamp beside the golden door, though, well, that's better than anybody else is offering. i can work with it.