borin borin England (and other Euro2004 related musings)

Yeah, good wins for the Republic, Wales and Scotland - it's important to remember that Iceland are ahead of Scotland in the world rankings, so beating them counts as giant killing.

Denmark 3 2-1-0 9-4 7p
Norway 3 2-1-0 5-2 7p
Romania 4 2-0-2 12-6 6p
B&H 2 0-0-2 0-5 0p
Luxemb 2 0-0-2 0-9 0p

Fixtures until all team have same number of matches:

B&H - Luxembourg (goalless at half time)
Luxembourg - Norway
Denmark - B&H

Most likely outcome then: Norway and Denmark at 10p, with Romania starting to trail at 6... Yeah, I can live with that.

Shocks of the day: Germany's draw with Lithuania and Russia's defeat by Albania putting Ireland back in contention for the play-offs

good result though, especially with all the injuries we had. poor me had to work through the game and relied in txt msg updates from friends :-( Im supposed to be working through the albania game too. maybe i'll call in sick ;-) switzerland and russia have both dropped points against albania, so i think with the momentum we've got going under kerr, we're not just in contention for a play-off place, we could still top the group. its possible that georgia will be docked a point or two, as well.

(robin did i see you get on the dart at sandycove on friday night?)

and yeah,it probably was me in sandycove,at about half seven?

(yeah, prob about half7)

yeah that must have been me,i didn't see you...

the ireland game was depressing indeed. my new-found optimism was a little misplaced: there's still work to be done. plus points: duff was good whenever he got the ball (not often), carr was v.good in the 2nd half and given was great in goal. o'shea still hasn't taken to the international game...

i still think we can squeak 2nd place, with the next 3 games at home and all (and switz and russia have dropped points to the minnows too). but that was quite a depressing come-down.

3 cheers for rooney all the same.

Other than that, quality all the way - Beckham and Owen were slightly off, though, but the defence was fantastic, James had a bizarrely solid game (and that save... perfect)... and Turkey were good too. It's shown that when England get their shit together they CAN be as good as they look on paper. A bit more consistency, and look out Wales...

Gerrard was top as well, even if he WAS playing out of position. Actually, on the basis of last night, I'd drop Scholesy for a while and experiment with playing Butt and Gerrard together in central midfield with Gerrard in a more attacking role.

I think Vassell is wasted on Villa.

and who the chuff let those fans on the pitch?

Meanwhile, Jeffers notched his 13th U21 goal in as many appearances. Heskey will simply be squeezed out of the squad at this rate.

Is Ilhan Mansiz cuter now he's had his hair cut or not? Me and the missus couldn't decide.

Kilbane was truly awful, I know the guy gets so much abuse but he was just dreadful, O'Shea was running past him most of the time because he obviously could see passing to him was a bad idea. Robbie Keane looked unfit, a bit distracted maybe with the events of last week. Albania looked pretty good really. We'll be lucky to get through I feel.

England were very good yes. Rooney excellent first half though was knackered during the second I felt, gave away the ball several times, but definitely looks like him and Owen could be a good partnership. Vassel looked good aswell, great strength to set up the corner which eventually led to the goal.

Bridge definitely a better option than Cole, being a more traditional style of full back, I'm unsure Cole suits England really. Becks was poor, alot of bad corners and crosses.

as for England, the result was certainly more satisfying than the performance itself - good but not great, but maybe i'm too harsh and cynical there. definitely the best save David James will ever make. but i also witnessed the worst pass David Beckham will ever make, and i couldnt believe he fluffed that shot in front of goal early on in the game. pretty lucky with the penalty it seemed to me. and the mystery of Vassell's talismanic quality in and England shirt remains! Turkey were surprisingly poor i thought, but a great result nonetheless

eh? that doesn't make any... OH the wink! I see what you did there, very good Matt. ;o)

and did you see Beckham making kissy faces late on? hilarious

How many cards were actually brandished last night? It seemed surprisingly few, given how frought the whole thing was. There might have been a few dodgy decisions, but the ref kept things under control pretty well. It could have been very ugly.

i thought he said "fucX you, you fucXing pussy, fucXing prick kiss kiss kissssssssss" Brilliant

And did you see Tugay being Dragged off - so funny, nothing quite as enjoyable as watching the Turks get beat.

After that, I went off England. I have rarely been so little satisfied by such a result.

ireland squeaked a win, but it was a truly awful performance. such an incredible lack of creativity in that side, the best way of getting goals for us seems to be to bring on Gary Docherty and lump long balls up to him! keane and duff (possibly absent for the Georgia game :-( ...) are still great when they get going, though, and carr's a bit of an animal at right back. bring on georgia, i suppose, and let's hope for a similar result but a better performance. maybe give reid a shot down the right wing if he's fit enough?

thoughts on england? i'd say they'll win comfortably on wednesday. good result for vogts against his home country today, as well.

as for England, their next result depends on how Slovakia do tonight against Turkey, i have a feeling they could upset the Turks but 0-0 would be the best result really.

heh, we created very little! we were awful, but 3 points is ok by me. turkey won 1-0, but i'd say england will get a draw in turkey, and take care of the minnows to claim first place.

Exactly my point. We tend to come unstuck over the course of a qualifying campaign, but can occasionally muster a good result. I think Scotland should be relocated somewhere in the Pacific to give us a slightly easier qualifying group.

Home internationals-a-go-go!

1 - England (if they do win the current group and do well at Euro 2004)
2 - Ireland
3 - Scotland, Wales
4 - Northern Ireland

so 4 out of 5 would be possible

home internationals would be good - cut out England even (cos there's bound to be trouble unfortunately) and lets see Scotland v Wales etc.

By the power of the mighty g00gle:

England lost 4-1 to Wales on 17th May 1980 during the old Home Internationals.

Fuck, you lot are better than I thought...

However, England have definitely been beaten by three since then - the one that springs to mind is the 0-3 against the then-mighty USSR (aka Ukraine) in Euro 1988 - Vssily rats, Protasov, Belanov et al. Dunno if there's another one besides that.

interestingly its also been some time since the Republic of Ireland were beaten by more than 2 goals...and France i think. everyone else has been whipped within the last 5 years including Brazil if you count the World Cup Final in '98 as a heavy defeat

Statto eat your heart out

i think its only the World Cups where a big European team misses out as Euro 2000 had everyone you'd expect to be there.

What are Holland looking like these days? I haven't been paying attention recently but if Davids, Seedorf and Scooby Van Nistelrooy are firing on all cylinders they could do something quite special next year.

My point is the Dutch have their poor phases (Euro 96 was one of them) but bounce back quickly as they are never actually short of quality players and right now they are looking pretty strong, as are the Czechs who are in the same group. The thing about Spain is they remain the most consistent side in qualifying but they only recently just avoided defeat by Ukraine and complacency set in for their defeat at home to Greece. Suddenly as a result of that they are in trouble and could find themselves either in a play-off spot or not qualifying at all...much like Sweden could theoretically although i think both WILL win their groups.

1. France (still deadly, despite lack of real challenge in their group)
2. Italy (because they're jammy and resilient and will defend their arses off)
3. Germany (see Italy)
4. Spain (because they currently have awesome attacking power from a wide range of sources)
5. Portugal (because they're the hosts)
6. Holland (because they have Van Nistelrooy)
7. England (because i'm deluded)
8. Czech Republic (because they look as strong as they did in '96 if not stronger - recently beat France in Paris and thrashed Turkey 4-0)

i dont think any other team is capable of winning the tournament, but thats a lot of contenders as it is. i have no idea who would be the customary 'dark horse', England or the Czechs probably wouldn't count - maybe Denmark or Norway?

god its still a year away and i've already thought about it waaay too much. its like thinking about the line-up for Glasto 2004 already or something.

if we do well against georgia and a bit of time is put into the team we could be great though-given,o shea,carr,finnan,duff and keane are all potentially world class players

a big shock and a huge boost for Wales as it means Serbia are virtually out of the running. still i'm sure Italy will win the group so things haven't really changed and Wales are still on target for that play-off spot (i really hope they end up playing Scotland)

ireland's best performance since the world cup tonight - not spectacular, but really solid for the whole 90 minutes. never looked like we'd concede, and took the goals well (perhaps keane's was handball, but who cares?). all 11 players gave a good account of themselves, but there were a couple of stand-outs. o'shea had his first really good game for ireland - really composed defending, and got forward loads. he got the man of the match award, but i'd have given it to colin healy in midfield - really energetic display on his first competitive start. some nice passing, too. i think he should start the next game alongside holland - kinsella is on the way out. props must also go to kilbane - lovely cross for the first goal, and he made some great runs, and won a hell of a lot of free kicks.

i'm pleased that wales look assured of at least second place, and northern ireland got a great draw at home, so a decent night all round.

James has been treated harshly by the press and pundits, none of them former keepers I've noted, he *had* to cover the possibility of a header, no wonder he was out of position for the kick that cleared everyone (and shouldn't have).

It's Ashley Cole that worries me and not Danny Mills, his positioning is awful, I mean, he tackles wekll, but he's rarely in place to do it, and thus gets exposed regularly.

Scholes never got in the game, I certainly feel that there should be a place for Joe Cole in the hole position, he has more craft and guile.

we desperatey need Sol and Rio back as our central defence was flawed, James is too patchy, i dont know why Robinson isn't being blooded more, Scholes looks patchy but every dog has its day so he's ok - Owen looked great last night - real captain material and if it wasn't down to some good keeping he should have got his 3. The jury is still out on Rooney im afraid. (Vassel is brilliant for england - his pace just eclipses defenders, he is a real handful and i personnaly think should be given more time)

Not sure about Vassell from the start but he does seem to scare the bejeesus out of tired defences.

Both Owen and Gerrard were masterful last night though.

I think stinking and winning is unfortunately the secret to international football. It certainbly seems to be the secret to most World Cup finals.

Rooney is a hothead, gets narked like Shearer when he doesn't score/get enough of the ball-except Shearer is old enough to know better

who was the bird who sung the national anthems? (NB she might be the most famous opera singer on Teeside, for all i know)

also for the first ten minutes last night i was getting dreadful whistling noise behind motty, so switched to sky which was infinately preferable, M & B just don't know when to shut up, where as tyler is connsumate, even the presence of the dorty hackin maggie (a. shearer esq.) didn't put me off, in fact he even cracked a funny:

tyler:(just after mills/hargreaves swap) well that just goes to show, diamonds aren't forever.
shearer: try telling me wife that

well it tickled my fancy...

also surely gerrard is the lucky player, 18 games, no defeats (4 draws i think?)

I didn't know it was on BBC. I saw it on Sky. I didn't hear Shearer's witty riposte to Tyler's witty phrase (which I heard). Now that I've seen it written down, I'm not sure I understand it.

I am glad to see that two Guardian writers agree with me that if Seaman had done what James did (or, didn't do), it would have been treated as proof of his creaking old joints.

It was just one of those things. If he had saved it (and he did get his fingers to it) it would have been save of the season.

Rooney looked a touch short of match sharpness, understandably, but also the diamond formation does him no favours. He likes to move around and drop short to get the ball, to turn and go at people. Pushing Scholes forward (and the defence's consequent close policing of that area) gave him little room, and he generally had to drop both short and wide to get any ball. He got little support when he did, I thought, and that's why despite some good touches and tricks he contrubuted almost nothing. I think the Slovaks played a smart game most of the way (they couldn't cope when England really got it together, but they really aren't top players, I think), and this will be part of the kid's football education. As will what I think is the first time he has been taken off, other than maybe in the new-team-at-half-time friendlies. I think next season will be interesting for Rooney-watchers as he will be closely watched by all opposition defences, and I'm not yet as certain as most commentators that he will thrive. He has the talent, but we are talking him up to an extraordinary degree given how few goals this stellar striker has actually scored.

I agree about saving Vassell as a sub. He doesn't really convince me, but a fast and energetic striker coming on against tiring defences always appeals to me.

I can't quite pin down why Scholes isn't quite doing it at the moment. He looks good for Man U and his role isn't so different for England. I guess at Man U he is one of several creative threats coming at defences, and maybe that's less true when he is playing with Gerard, Neville and Lampard than with Beckham and Giggs, but I think there is more that I haven't identified yet.

I agree with Chris re Ashley Cole's positioning. He is quick and tackles well and contributes going forward, but that basic lack of a good defensive brain is worrying. Obviously in this game the fact that several of our best central defenders were missing was a focus, and obscured the problems at full back. I'm not convinced we have any really terrific international class full backs. It's another reason I'd rather see us play with three at the back and five across midfield.

i don't think ireland can get the win they need. its possible, but i'll predict a 1-1 draw. i personally think docherty should play - we're better with a big striker, and he has gotten us important goals before.

i'll go for 0-0 in the england game...

could Northern Ireland upset the Greeks and allow Spain to top the group right at the death? i'm not convinced stranger things have happened but still...

am pessimistic about England what with the Ferdinand fiasco and numerous incidents of dubious nature blighting the game here. and Beckham's hair still makes me want to throw up.

if Robbie Keane doesn't score this Saturday i will eat a pig

Yay! Keane has looked sprightly since his return (his goal against coventry in the league cup was a thing of beauty) so i wouldn't rule it out. i feel the swiss will already have scored by then, though...

I would rather they play duff on the wing, to be honest. even the right wing would be ok, just so long as we have the big doc up front - i know he's clumsy, but i really think we have a better chance of winning with a tall target man. the papers are saying that it will probably be duff and keane up front, finnan down the right wing. i don't know if this is the best way, but we'll see...

I wouldn't bet on little Robbie K scoring, but hope he does.

Will the England fiascos... Bring The Players Even Closer Together?

WE'LL WIN IT FOR RIO

IT'S ALL KICKING OFF NOW!

I sadly don't reckon Ireland will do it, the midfield just doesn't have it. I really think Connolly should start mind you, that goal against Turkey is reason enough, it was sensational. He is I feel a division 1 player but he's on form. Alot of pundits are saying we need Docherty cos on the ground their defence will deal with us easily, but I mean Henchoz is far from the player he was!

This game was big and hard all along. It was then problematic cos of hooligan fear. Then it became extra-difficult because of striking loss. Then disastrous because of drug-based nonsense.

Has a difficult game ever been made more difficult in so many different ways?

could go either way, and i know that gets said all the time too, but it really could - one of the most unpredictable encounters i'm likely to ever witness. esp. when considering...

Turkey have never scored against England before
England have never lost when Gerrard has played (?)
England haven't lost a final qualifying game for as long as i can remember
after finishing third in the World Cup, neither Sweden in '94 or Croatia in '98 qualified for the subsequent European Championships
It really is about time Paul Scholes scored a goal

none of this may mean anything - and i think the effects of the week will mean more, but still it's all very interesting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/fivelive.shtml

(It sounds very much as though they are live at the football to me.....)

So annoyed I came home from the pub. Though I may yet go out again since I already regret that decision.

I dare say no one will much fancy Turkey in the playoffs. There are going to be some interesting games in that.

Even when they lose, Italy never breaks a sweat.

"we desperately need a good midfield passer of the ball"

quite. miller, mcphail and thornton should be given more of a shot in the next qualifying campaign. less solid workhorses and a bit more flair.

i maintain that gerrard is england's key man.

Ahem! And Vitaly Astafyevs, their captain and most capped player, who spent years at Bristol Rovers but seems not to be with us this season.

i don't see ANY hope for scotland, wales have a slightly better chance. russia's home form is Very Very Good - they racked up about 15 goals in their 4 home matches. BUT - they were far less impressive away from home, so there is hope.

I'm also beginning to think that Gerrard, major tournaments or no major tournaments, is turning into England's most consistently good performer - retrospectively, nowhere was his absence more gapingly obvious than in the Brazil game.

I watched Saturday's in a bar in Malta and it was the weirest football-watching experience of my life. Crammed in with hundreds of people, most of whom had probably never set foot in England in their lives, all in England shirts, some draped with flags, going fucking mental for every England chance, singing "we love you England, we do!", jumping on chairs when Gerrard went down in the area and putting heads in hands when Beckham missed. Then Vindaloo played out very loudly indeed straight on the final whistle, with everyone singing along really loudly, dancing with pints aloft, beer splashing everywhere, like we'd walked into an advert for Carling or something. You could spot the English people a mile off - they were the ones looking happily nonplussed. A foreign country where they love the English... weird.

what a man.

The tunnel fracas seems a bit of a nasty business (or perhaps the general grainy chaos of the Turkish telly pix reminded me too much of a Carlton CCTV-heavy "When Binge-Drinkers Go Mental" special) - I wonder if Collina's report will lead to further UEFA action?

Tunnel fracas: Would not be at all surprised if Heskey was incensed by a racist slur cast his way by one of the Turkish players and this was the cause. Strong allegation i know but it's happened before.

as for Wales, another great and deserved result. it would be agony for them to lose or score draw now

i actually feel a bit sorry for the Turks. it must've been a bit tough for them after the nightmare in Istanbul that same morning...but even before that i think a Latvia upset was on the cards - are Latvia the new Slovenia? will Turkey go the way of Sweden and Croatia in failing to qualify for the subsequent European tournament after coming third in the prior World Cup?

Spain and Croatia must both feel very nervous as well - can you handle the excitement at this stage?

"Plucky little run", heh. How condescending.

wales have a much better chance. russia won 4/4 home games in the group stage, scoring a lot of goals each time. i decided before saturday's game that a 1-0 defeat for wales would be a decent result. to get a draw was excellent, and i think they're favourites now. russia haven't won an away match in this qualifying campaign, they're there for the taking.

I think I read somewhere that Italy aren't top seeded, so the concept of a Group of Death with France AND Italy in it are pretty strong.

My girlfriend said, "is it a play-off game for Euro 2004?" I pulled a spazzy face and she said "Oh no it can't be, Ireland didn't make the play-offs"

I pulled a spazzier face and she said, "oh, right, Canada."