The IRA

1) It's just simply not true. While there are some Irish-Americans, I'm certain, who are IRA-supporters, there are also some Arab- Americans who support Osama Bin Laden, and some Cuban-Americans who en totale support Castro's regime, etc etc etc. They're hardly a majority of the people and, indeed, if I walked around saying "All Black Americans support Farrakhan's beliefs" I'd be branded as a racist asshole, besides the fact I'd clearly be wrong.

2) Why do the English feel so above the IRA? Again this is directed more towards my former friends and no one specific around here, but the common sentiment I have received is that these supposed IRA- supporting Americans now "know how it feels" and the reaction is very smug and they go on and on about "US terrorist operations" in Middle Eastern countries. Why do my friends seem to believe that the behavior of the British military in the Irish situation is so much more class and wonderful than the IRA? Do they not see that this would be a smaller scale version of exactly what they are accusing the US of doing?

3) Why don't they just declare Northern Ireland its own country and shut up already and stop their bitchin', all of ya'alls?

But anyway, the British government is in many ways to the IRA what the US government is to the Taliban. There are arguments on both sides and not everything is black and white.

My opinion? I lost two friends when the IRA bombed Manchester. I lost two friends when the WTC was destroyed. I don't like terrorism no matter what.

Like I said, I no longer speak to these friends over this, so yes, I have started going in different places to find friends. Except those friends are crap too.

Might work. Just don't place the ad in "Terrorism Monthly", "Soldier Of Fortune", or anywhere like that.

(Your point about the British forces in Ireland is a good one and one we're more aware of than you might think. Something *I've* noticed on this board from some Americans is the0 assumption that British commentators only want to see the full picture/understand the causes of terrorism when it's extremists attacking America and not when it's something like the IRA. In fact all the people I know who've been talking about US foreign policy or ambivalent about a military reaction have been entirely consistent with their previous positions on the IRA. You can call it appeasement if you like, but it's not hypocrisy.)

I'd say the belief comes from the fact that the IRA & Sinn Fein have a massive fund-raising network in the USA which is very good at milking Irish Americans. No doubt many Irish-Americans don't cough up, but enough do to make Sinn Fein awash with cash to an almost frightening extent.

Anyway, like it or not the only way to end terrorism is via counterterrorism so theoretically both sides are right but it's not a very pleasant thing to have to think about.

Who mentioned hypocricy again?

Um, that's sort of what got us into this bout of the troubles in the first place. Post war NI had its own parliament until the early 70s. The domination of this parliament by the Unionists and the massive amount of discrimination against the Catholic minority contributed heavily to things kicking off again 30 years ago.

A hilarious story -- circa 1993 or so, House of Pain gets interviewed, and you might all remember their little Irish-American hip-hop schtick ("Shamrocks and Shenanigans" -- HAR HAR HAR). The Stud Brothers do the interview and ask what they think about the IRA; House of Pain says that they like 'em. The Studs then note that the IRA is rather well known for doing things like finding pot dealers and kneecapping them and the like. The notably pro-pot House of Pain mutter and mumble and never quite come up with a good response.

what about proddies vs the catholics?

religious angle?

kids going to school being reduced to tears?

the way i understood it, the 'why cant it just be a separate state' thing totally overlook the horrible complicatedness of it all?

its been going on for 300 yrs now......can't see a reason for it to stop now....

In a statement to the Stack family early last week, the IRA said its members were acting on orders when they carried out the attack. However, the statement said the attack was not authorised by the leadership of the parliamentary organisation. “Some years later, when the Army Council discovered that its volunteers had shot prison officer Brian Stack, the volunteer responsible for the instruction was disciplined,” the IRA statement said.

Speaking alongside his brother Oliver outside Leinster House this afternoon, Austin Stack told how the family members received the statement last week from a former senior IRA leader at a meeting with Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams.

He and his brother were driven in a blacked-out van to an undisclosed location off the M1 motorway near Dundalk. The ex-IRA leader read the statement to them over a table in the private one-storey house, before asking them to transcribe it for themselves.

Austin Stack said the meeting, over tea and biscuits, followed a series of talks between the family and Mr Adams. He thanked Mr Adams but said the family was still left with unanswered questions.

how fuckin bizarre is this

So I mean

You're an Irish Catholic far enough away from the six counties and young enough to not really know enough about it except that everyone is sick of it and wishes it would stop and eventually it does

And you maintain a high horse attitude to the ra and any who sailed in her. And by and large the remnants of Irish republicanism who remain/ed active are easily thus treated, being little more than the worst type of John Aldridge looking ratlean greyeyed heistman shootist argue marxism in the pub cut off dentists fingers in the back of a hiace maniac. That or balaclava outlet store FCA biyiz who figured drugs and protection rackets was as good a way to see out the Celtic tiger as any.

Sean bean, before getting too beefy was, essentially, a good shout.

But you every now and again get into a wiki spiral for whatever reason- today's stems from a page on the TV doc on the Gibraltar shootings, thence Michael stone, thence Sammy duddy and you get reminded of something we don't, that I've noticed, talk about:

Loyalists.

Loyalists, the paramilitary ones, right, are deeply, deeply fucking weird.

Like, they're fucked in a way that Sean bean doesn't convey.

They're mad max villains.

They've all got fetishes.

The sadism apparent as a modus operandi is disturbing not just in itself but in its repeated and systematic deployment

There's a vernacular out of a malevolent dickens via settler australia that's redolent of an anachronistic martial existence that assumes a cultish, brutish sinister aspect in context.

Each time I find a wiki page that causes me to reaffirm this belief I may post it here, as I'd be curious to see what if any thoughts the yanks have, for starters. Then the UK crew.

The paddies, arah shure we can argue about it again sometime.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Duddy

Role in loyalism Edit

Duddy was initially known in Belfast for his drag queen act, performing in the city's clubs and pubs as "Samantha". His costume consisted of a long, black wig, fishnet tights, falsies, and heavy make-up.[2] He once performed for British troops on tour.[3]

To avoid any possible implication in the Kincora Boys' Home scandal, Duddy ended the drag act in 1981 under orders from Tyrie, who also told him to grow a moustache and drop his voice.[3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hester_Dunn

Early life Edit

Rogers was born into a Protestant family in Northern Ireland and brought up in staunchly loyalist east Belfast. She describes herself as "an Ulster woman".[1] Rogers worked for a time as a belly dancer.[2]

Wendy Millar (born 1944) also known as "Bucket" and "Queen of the UDA" is a Northern Irish loyalist and a founding member of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA). She established the first UDA women's unit on her native Shankill Road in Belfast. Her two sons Herbie and James "Sham" Millar are also high-profile UDA members and her daughter's husband is former West Belfast brigadier "Fat" Jackie Thompson.

Another group, the Sandy Row women's unit gained notoriety in July 1974 when its commander Elizabeth "Lily" Douglas ordered her "Heavy Squad" (a gang within the unit who meted out punishment beatings) to bring Protestant single mother Ann Ogilby to a "Romper Room" where she was subsequently beaten to death.[4] "Romper Rooms" were locations where UDA victims were brought to be "rompered" which was a UDA slang term for a torture and beating session prior to "execution"

You maybe don't want to look much further in that last episode if you're feeling squeamish

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Millar_(loyalist)

All of this one, good stuff

Adair heard that Dodds' cousin William "Muggsy" Mullan had been drug-dealing with the Shoukri brothers, Adair's rivals in North Belfast, and so Adair ordered Mullan to pay him a £10,000 fine or leave Northern Ireland. Mullan's family scraped together £7000 which Dodds took to Adair but he refused to accept it and Mullan was forced to flee. Winkie's brother Milton "Doddsy" Dodds met some Adair's men in a bar and asked them why the brigadier had treated his brother so badly but Donald Hodgen punched him and later that night Adair's ally Fat Jackie Thompson led a punishment squad to Doddsy's house where he was beaten with baseball bats. The following day Winkie Dodds decided he had had enough of Adair's erratic behaviour and he and his wife left the Shankill

Following the actions by Jackie Thompson that forced Adair's supporters off the Shankill Road Dodds and his wife returned to live in the area. By this time Dodds was forced to walk with a stick and had difficulty speaking due to his stroke.[35] Nonetheless when asked his opinion of Adair soon after returning to the Shankill Dodds stated of his former friend "he's a fucking wanker".[

They are crazies, but I'm from Scotland so I know that Lowland Scots, I'm one of them, are world champion fanatics and lunatics. By the way:

Give it 20 years. Republican majority will occur. Britain will leave as soon as they get a chance. United Ireland, nice for about a month, then economy is fucked up and people down South resent the North and its citizens

― Ronan, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (fifteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Five more years, lads.

Thompson remained close to Adair who gave him the title of "Provost Marshal", a role which effectively gave him control over knee-cappings

Was interested in your take for sure tom

Adair would later be assaulted by Irish republicans while attending a UB40 concert.[10]

Interesting to compare with ISIS operatives in Europe, who seem to be invariably scummy criminals and lowlifes.

Adair would later be assaulted by Irish republicans while attending a UB40 concert.[10]

Chuckled at this though. You've got to, really.

The Rathcoole home of long-standing UDA member Sammy Duddy was raked by gunfire; although Duddy was not injured in the shooting attack, his pet chihuahua Bambi was fatally wounded by shots fired through the front door by masked gunmen from Adair's C Company. Adair later admitted in an interview he gave for journalist Suzanne Breen that Duddy never got over the loss of Bambi.[47]

;_;

I'm descended from lowland Scots apparently. Makes sense.

In her book, In Love With a Mad Dog, Robinson stated that after a UDA killing had been carried out, he would become highly aroused and afterwards be "particularly wild in bed".[

Explains a lot about the USA tbh. (xp)

Early years Edit

McKeag's first group affiliation was with the white power skinhead gangs that existed on the Shankill and which were co-opted into the UDA's youth wing Ulster Young Militants.[2] McKeag then became a born-again Christian and married young to a woman named Alison.[3] His interest in Christianity would diminish as he became more involved in the UDA, whilst his marriage also broke up.[3]

According to Henry McDonald and Jim Cusack, the UDA gave an annual "Volunteer of the Year" award to the organisation's top hitman. The award, presented on the Shankill Road and usually consisting of a trophy in the form of a model gun and plaque made by loyalists prisoners, was dominated by McKeag from 1990 onwards and helped to ensure that he became known as "Top Gun" both to his UDA comrades and his republican opponents

Decline Edit

In June 1998 McKeag, a keen motorcyclist, suffered serious injuries when his vehicle collided with a car being driven by a member of the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). He suffered a number of broken bones and required several operations, including the insertion of pins into his leg, and as a consequence he also developed an addiction to painkillers.[1] He also had a collapsed lung and stomach damage and for a time had to wear a urostomy bag.[26]

A celebrated figure within loyalism for his exploits, cracks began to show in 1999, notably at an event at the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes on the Corcrain estate in Portadown

Wait no what

the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes

This was a late night drinking club in Glasgow, pre-opening hour liberalization, it's connection to Loyalist headbangers is news to me. This is excellent stuff though, you're definitely onto something - though not that different from the sort of Glasgow gangland scumbags that you can read about in the Sunday Mail most weekends.

Had to stop. Too depressing

Shameful in its Benson and hedges stained eastenders dramatics

XP it definitely has the ring of local press egging on local thugs doesn't it

as far as i'm aware my irish-american family never donated neither directly nor indirectly (eg noraid) to the ira

and ireland exists as an abstract cultural notion recreated and distorted in parts in a completely different context

wrt these loyalists, what is there to say about these characters really. like tom says, scum of the earth

don't want to get too deeply into it but it's the whole machiavellian aspect of the ira that always comes to mind personally

1916 violence expedited ireland's 'independence', but it could have been reached without violence, just that it would've taken longer imo

i guess i'm more ashamed than anything else and it's depressing and best to laugh it off but glad i live in a country where people don't recognize my surname or associate it with anything related to the ira

IRA vs ROTH IRA vs SEP-IRA

GOJIRA ftw

Adair heard that Dodds' cousin William "Muggsy" Mullan had been drug-dealing with the Shoukri brothers, Adair's rivals in North Belfast, and so Adair ordered Mullan to pay him a £10,000 fine or leave Northern Ireland. Mullan's family scraped together £7000 which Dodds took to Adair but he refused to accept it and Mullan was forced to flee. Winkie's brother Milton "Doddsy" Dodds met some Adair's men in a bar and asked them why the brigadier had treated his brother so badly but Donald Hodgen punched him and later that night Adair's ally Fat Jackie Thompson led a punishment squad to Doddsy's house where he was beaten with baseball bats. The following day Winkie Dodds decided he had had enough of Adair's erratic behaviour and he and his wife left the Shankill

you could make this one into a children's book with pictures and a line on every page. "Winkie Dodds Leaves Shankhill"

Billy Wright's entry is somewhat fascinating. Less tawdry and somewhat more messianic than the usual, but on the same tawdry local legend scale.

Gusty Spence
Gusty spence.jpg
Gusty Spence in 1972, when UVF leader. It was taken while he was at large following his escape from prison.
Born Augustus Andrew Spence
28 June 1933
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Died 25 September 2011 (aged 78)
Belfast, Northern Ireland
Residence Shankill Road, Belfast
Nationality British
Other names "The Orange Pimpernel"

The orange pimpernel

s/b tangerine pimpernel imo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Graham_(loyalist)

i'm blaming you deems, for the fact i just spent 10 mins googling variants of "why was john graham called bunter"

They seek him here, they seek him there, so they do.

not sure if anyone's looking for books about all this -- rather than wikipedia paragraphs -- but one place to start is eamon collins's "killing rage", written by an ira assassin-turned-informer a couple of years before he was found beaten to death

it's the opposite of loyalist (in every sense) but it gives you a bleak glimpse of who'd been high-ranking and respected and effective within an org, and why it turned on him and he turned against it (reasons less the ones he gives out loud than screaming from the subtext of every other sentence)

this thread is genuinely making me want to record some of these as children's bedtime stories.

Struwwelpeter or the Shankhill Butchers, fingers are going to be chopped off either way.

gusty spence is an interesting one, one of the first members and prominent leader of the newfangled uvf, committed some sectarian murders - the just shoot some taig looking fella outside a bar on the falls type if i remember - renounced violence in jail and was pushing for a political end to the conflict from the maze, basically having a more progressive and conciliatory outlook towards the nationalist community than most mainstream unionist politicians of the time

then david ervine, basically a very sound seeming bloke with good left-wing politics

a fairly reasonable guy if you ignore the whole bombing nationalist civilians part

my favourite story though, that illustrates the monstrosity of loyalism, is long kesh being closed and in the republican wings what's left over is literature and books on the irish language, history, political theory. the loyalist wing's reading material consists primarily of body-building magazines.

I'm glad it stopped. I still don't understand why it is that it stopped. Most places violence just doesn't end. Ever.

the david ervine part of this book is good reading, he's about as sympathetic as a loyalist bomber can be, though he is circumspect about his crimes, basically not admitting to anything other than the crime he was convicted for - he was caught by police driving a car with a bomb in it. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Voices-Grave-Two-Mens-Ireland/dp/0571251692

There's very interesting people on both sides, absolutely, I'm kind of focusing on the wyrd side of the loyalist divide here. I've half a theory that their religious, professional, communal, historic or whatever outlook tended to push them down less identikit paths than the republican terrorists template.

What Jim says there might make sense in that light. Paddys in for several, but the liturgy of the cause is present in the bloc because there's a coherent somewhat shared ideology based not only on Catholicism ( which we can presume to be prone to more uniformity of form and product than the various protestantisms across the province?) but in the broad trend of extreme left politics besides, and if not quite agreement in that latter then certainly a shared belief in the fervency with which one should properly engage in a politic.

Loyalists idk they're just lads swung a hammer, kept tidier farms and liked to shoot paddies. Book clubs aren't really in it.

This lad frinstance, obv wanted a religion regardless of whatever religion it was, but that need for creed doesn't seem tied in to his desire for buggery of minors or his sectarian hatred

Whereas yknow with yr Catholic nationalist it's all in a package.

John McKeague
John McKeague.png
McKeague in a BBC interview in 1976
Born John Dunlop McKeague
1930
Bushmills, County Antrim
Died 29 January 1982
Albertbridge Road, Belfast
Cause of death Gunshot wounds
Nationality British
Occupation Shopkeeper
Notable work Loyalist Song Book
Home town Belfast
Title Leader of the Red Hand Commando

Chris Moore, in his investigation into the Kincora scandal, insists that McKeague was never a member of Tara but that he and McGrath had met to discuss trading weapons between their two groups and that following these meetings McKeague had become a regular visitor to Kincora, where he was involved in several rapes of underage boys living at the home.[13] Although making no comment on his membership or otherwise of the group Jim Cusack and Henry McDonald insist that McKeague shared the far right conspiratorial views advanced by McGrath and UPV leader Noel Doherty.

couple interesting mid-80s essays by -- i know i know hear me out -- tom paulin, on paisley and the DUP as a political movement with roots in (as TP argues it) the puritan revolt during the english civil war, paisley's reading list put together mainly at bob jones university maybe, but echoes stuff you find in bunyan etc

it's collected in "writing to the moment" which is a fvck awful title, tom, no wonder i'm the only one who bought and read it

Loyalists idk they're just lads swung a hammer, kept tidier farms and liked to shoot paddies. Book clubs aren't really in it.

http://www.booksinstore.uk/shop_image/product/004118.jpg

couple interesting mid-80s essays by -- i know i know hear me out -- tom paulin, on paisley and the DUP as a political movement with roots in (as TP argues it) the puritan revolt during the english civil war, paisley's reading list put together mainly at bob jones university maybe, but echoes stuff you find in bunyan etc

this does sound legit interesting

is there a consensus best or most comprehensive book about the post-bloody sunday era of "the troubles"?

btw my brother was in Ireland on an internship program at the same time as the Omagh bombing. One of the victims (a 12 yr old boy) shared his full name. i am pretty certain there was never any panic about that particular bit (he was in Dublin.)

separate from that i remember my brother saying it was the darkest moment he'd ever felt a part of, just being in Ireland at the time.

couple interesting mid-80s essays by -- i know i know hear me out -- tom paulin, on paisley and the DUP as a political movement with roots in (as TP argues it) the puritan revolt during the english civil war, paisley's reading list put together mainly at bob jones university maybe, but echoes stuff you find in bunyan etc

it's collected in "writing to the moment" which is a fvck awful title, tom, no wonder i'm the only one who bought and read it

― mark s, Thursday, 9 March 2017 18:12 (twenty-nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Calvinism foundations and all that alright, and presbyterianism as prevalent throughout the north is surely only the Scottish variant but Paisley's lads are just fundamental baptist or whatever of the type celebrated in the Fred Phelps threads

I'd read more into this stuff, it appeals and repels on a number of interesting levels, but I mean it's hard to find the time when the wikispiral just never ends.

i went through a crazy period of reading about the troubles like a man possessed but i never read enough about the loyalists, feels like something i'll definitely come back to at some stage.

Yeah it's more than just the local interest there's definitely something there I'd like to see well investigated

my prob blase southern view is that ulster unionists were/are a bunch that's fairly retrograde. i realise that's versus ira or whatever at the extremes, but it often felt like some of the worst people in europe were these bible basher racial hatred types. that said i've met many people from the north born in one religion or the other, and over the years they didn't care or weren't brought up in a way that gave them any major anger.

ultimately tho, i don't see deep racial hatred even in an org like sinn fein. nor homophobia, etc.

i've also been wanting to read more about 'the troubles' but jeez it's hard to sift through it all -- any thoughts on "Making Sense of the Troubles"? the copy i've got is already been updated and i feel like a sucker

it was a hard time to sift through for both sides

SIFT were a particularly nasty bunch of breakouts from the 1972 conference iirc, led away after refusing to recognise the legitimacy of a vote on mustache be full beard for the modern provo

I can't recommend any of these yet gbx cos I only looked it up earlier but...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/feb/22/bestbooks.politics

Tim Pat Coogans "The Troubles" is very good too

Coogan is faultless, thorough and relatively impartial that I can tell by Jesus he is a chore to read

One of our fallen heroes late of the parish has brought my attn to the following:

https://www.amazon.com/Longest-War-Northern-Irelands-Troubled/dp/0192802925

thanks guys

xpost - lol @ that Amazon reviewer 'how can anyone have a book about Northern Ireland without photos' idk my feeling is anyone who lived through any of that should be pretty right for photos for the rest of their lives basically just saying

i'm like twenty minutes into the first episode of peter taylor's documentary series on the loyalists and jfc paisley is such a sleazeball

That Peter Taylor series is a great primer on the troubles. The books are actually not that great iirc, in that they don't expand sufficiently on the docs.

paisley = hall of fame for alltime punchable twats

reread the paulin-paisley essay last night: it's really good -- a deep dive into the rhetorical structure and intellectual (which are also anti-intellectual) roots of paisleyism, why/how it emerged when it did and why it was so effective (it's not *simply* bible-bashing clannishness)

the strongest stuff is maybe about the class roots of the DUP's relentless war since the 60s on official unionism (the "tyrant o'neill")

paulin is a protestant republican himself, iirc, and he's trolling a *bit* perhaps by fashioning more of a coherence than is there -- he notes several contradictory elements but deftly uses the noting to "save his theory", which is fair enough in the context of explaining rhetorical force... the force is real and the contradictions evidently don't diminish it, so don't treat them as points of weakness, bcz they're not

cf freud on the kettle joke (CW: jeet heer at this link; also trump's face)

point here not so much that paisley is like trump -- there are similarities but also important differences -- but that "kettle logic" is very effective in a particular kind of class insurgency, which the Troubles were

(tbh paulin's semi-trollish argument that the deep perhaps inadvertant logic of paisleyism and the DUP is actually ultimately also (ie like irish nationalism) a species of separatism, despite itself, probably slightly reflects his own politics and wishful thinking a wee a bit too much… he's goading paisleyites here, but he's not wrong that there's a deep ambivalence in the DUP abt the nature of their britishness)

sorry this doesn't really belong on a thread abt the IRA tho, does it?

No I think it's a good angle, thanks for bringing it in

Anyway, fault will be mind for rebooting thread purely to marvel at the unionistas

That said, tisnt the first time they done it on us wha

he's not wrong that there's a deep ambivalence in the DUP abt the nature of their britishness

That's no understatement.

by not-entirely-odd coincidence:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2017/03/ian-paisley-jr-northern-irish-aelection-dup-were-caught-napping

he's not wrong that there's a deep ambivalence in the DUP abt the nature of their britishness

That's no understatement.

― Return of the Flustered Bootle Native (Tom D.), Friday, March 10, 2017 4:35 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this idea is often expressed and, i think, holds a lot of water.

having a google to find someone saying it better than i can and came across this:

The bilateral nature of Unionist British national identity, based on a contractual attitude to the state, is associated with the phenomenon of negative nationalism. Such identity is as much as symbol of Unionist resistance to Irish reunification as its s of any sense of belong to a UK 'collective conscience'. In this respect, Unionist adherence to a British national identity is an act of defiance, rather than a positive assertion of British nationalist sentiment. 'The Ulster state came into being solely because of the opposition of Northern Protestants to Irish unification: negative nationalism had its way'. Unionism, and especially its more fundamentalist brand, is loyal unto itself first. This is the real significance of the label of Loyalism. According to the Northern Ireland Attitude Survey of 1978, 85 per cent of respondents deemed that a 'loyalist is loyal to Ulster before the British Government'.

The highly symbolic nature of the Unionists' Britishness and their conditional loyalism and negative nationalism, present a paradox. Is it that the Unionist community is not British at all? Or is it that it is the most British part of the UK? Certainly Union Jack waving, noisy loyalty to Crown and fundamentalist Protestant faith, all tend to set Ireland apart from the rest of the UK. Nowhere else (sic) on the mainland of Britain are these traditional symbols of Britishness so visibly and audibly proclaimed.

I think Brighton has the union jacks and a few others that might not be mentioned there

the piece also goes on to talk about hartzian fragment theory. the idea that colonial settler societies that break off from european society do not continue to develop along the lines of the mother society. So Hartz thought Latin America a fragment of feudal Europe, the United States and Canada a fragment of Europe in the age of liberalism. So perhaps Ulster is a Hartzian fragment and this explains the archaic elements of Ulster Unionism.

15 yrs late but puzzled by:

I lost two friends when the IRA bombed Manchester. I lost two friends when the WTC was destroyed. I don't like terrorism no matter what.

― Paul Strange, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (fifteen years ago)

There were no fatalities in the 96 Manchester bombing. Is he referring to a different one?

fwiw he was apparently lying about losing friends on 9/11 so he was probably lying about the Manchester one as well.

Then he changed his name to Nuttall?

Ha, years-old scandal unearthed. Was he the twee record label guy?

more talking about loyalism

http://www.secondcaptains.com/2017/03/10/episode-801-peter-geoghegan-future-unionism-price-loyalty/

(subscription podcast link)

Since the ceasefire, the UVF has been involved in rioting, organised crime, vigilantism and feuds with other loyalist groups.[11] Some members have also been found responsible for orchestrating a series of racist attacks.

And we're back

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_McClinton

My good god

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Wallace

Gets absolutely astonishing, trust me

the piece also goes on to talk about hartzian fragment theory. the idea that colonial settler societies that break off from european society do not continue to develop along the lines of the mother society. So Hartz thought Latin America a fragment of feudal Europe, the United States and Canada a fragment of Europe in the age of liberalism. So perhaps Ulster is a Hartzian fragment and this explains the archaic elements of Ulster Unionism.

― Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Friday, 10 March 2017 17:55 (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is i think correct, btw. Loyalists are loyal to the besieged Ulster of the settlers, insofar are they are loyal to the crown it is to the far distant crown that gave them their charter and writ these many centuries gone.

There are significant parallels here perhaps in nationalist loyalty to the recognised 32 county state declared in 1916 and not the 26 county republic that emerged as an unideal but realised compromise.

I'm getting the distinct impression that these guys are far more familiar in the UK than the ROI.

... familiar to people in the UK than in the Republic that is.. Colin Wallace was in Private Eye every other week. Not quite a household name.

Well he'd never crossed my radar but I've run the name past one of my politically minded friends so I'll confirm or not the theory as and when

There are significant parallels here perhaps in nationalist loyalty to the recognised 32 county state declared in 1916 and not the 26 county republic that emerged as an unideal but realised compromise.

― virginity simple (darraghmac), Monday, April 24, 2017 4:48 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i love irish republican legitimism. really batshit crazy when you think about it. like finding out who can pull a sword from a stone is a less bizarre way to determine legitimacy.

for the uninitiated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_republican_legitimism

I saw your last comment on the French thread and i was wondering whether you had any thoughts on the republican side taken in isolation as a Marxist group (of varying degrees of that, obviously).

I'm only recently getting more background on the (Trotskyite?) stickies that merged into the mainstream left in the 80s and served in Celtic tiger govts in the 90s but who spent the 70s full on beating the shit out of sinn feiners on the streets of the northside if I'm to believe what I'm told. Might look up more info on it.

my knowledge of the stickies (and subsequent schisms such as the irsp and democratic left) is scant, really just know a little about the schism between provos and officials, and that they ended up renouncing violence and being the worker's party of ireland.

would def like to change that though

If i dig anything recommended up it'll go on here

I've been wanting to read inla: deadly divisions for ages but you can't buy the book for love nor money and i don't read pdfs of books.

this looks promising regarding the stickies: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/915 688 pages too !

I am not at all well-read on these matters but I learned a lot from this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Revolution-Story-Official-Workers/dp/0141028459/

You just stepped up as best read, so thanks for the rec

Yes indeed, I'll be reading that sucker.

think i had a mild disagreement w/jim abt this on the brexit thread a month or two back, which i was going to return to

my memory (and what i posted) was that the Official IRA = OIRA (the stickies) were marxist (as were and the INLA) but the provos weren't -- jim found a quote which definitely had the PIRA aligning themselves, round the end of the 70s, with marxism (i was planning to push back a bit on this, and argue it was more rhetorical and geopolitically tactical than an expression of the practical philsophical core of the PIRA or of Sinn Fein, but it was so hair-splitting that in the end i never formulated it sensibly)

OIRA and PIRA were the two sides of the 1969 split in the IRA, over armed struggle (OIRA were agin it)

i'm not sure if "trots" is really the right word -- tho i did just find an essay on-line which described the Workers Party (which is what Official Sinn Fein became in the late 70s) as "leninist", but again, the result of any discussion on such definitions and distinctions is likely to end in a quagmire of split hairs

OIRA def not Trots...this passage about the estimable Eoghan Harris has stayed with me:

Harris, 'in a black leather coat and looking terribly fierce', is recalled lecturing one Galway meeting on 'our Trotskyite deviations and Social Democratic instincts which had to be purged out of us if we were to become true revolutionaries'. O'Hagan, no fan of Trotskyism himself, recalls meeting Harris and Donohue in Des Geraghty's house, where Harris started 'to rant about the Trots. I looked at him in stark raving fucking amazement...I said to Geraghty, "Is he mad?" Geraghty replied, "He just goes on like that."'

Official Sinn Féin I should have said

they identified as Stalinist through the 70s at least

haha my friend who used to be in the swp -- who the world calls trots but who call themselves leninists (occasionally neoleninists) -- used to say to me "TROTS ARE MONSTERS!"

(i think he had the gerry healy lot in mind, who his mum had had a run in with in the 50s or 60s)

The odd thing about this is, in the 1980s Bono said he was attracted to the Workers' Party.

That was when he was still looking for etc

I Will Follow... the teachings of Comrade V.I. Lenin.

"Shadows & Trotskies"

of the 210 people we arrested, only three were not (Intelligence) agents

classic

Reading "The Lost Revolution". LOLz @ the Official IRA in Belfast dismissing the Provos as 'armed Celtic supporters'.

... also Gene Kelly giving money to the IRA, who knew?

... but only on condition that they bought arms with the money, as opposed to, I don't know, tap shoes or something.

Reading "The Lost Revolution". LOLz @ the Official IRA in Belfast dismissing the Provos as 'armed Celtic supporters'.

― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Tuesday, May 2, 2017 9:15 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha yas

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/scientist-provides-evidence-exonerating-robert-nairac-of-troubles-killings-1.3069263?mode=amp

pretty weak sauce attempt to get whereabouts, not sure that the main thrust of allegations against nairac were that he was there pulling triggers or wev so this shit of running into a packed court waving a sheaf of yellowing papers and breathily declaring that he was on a course that day washes away precisely zero stench

still at least no terrorist sympathisers made it into government eh?

― There's got to be a Corbyn after (Noodle Vague), Friday, 9 June 2017 09:40 (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So otm it had completely not occurred to anyone until he said it

Nail on the head from the lad, NV.

Gives me not much pleasure tbh

If you can tolerate the poor typing here's a decent snippet on some of the intricacies, contemporary report by v browne in the 80s

http://politico.ie/archive/inside-inla

The INLA issued a statement regarding the killing in the August 1979 edition of The Starry Plough:[27]

In March, retired terrorist and supporter of capital punishment, Airey Neave, got a taste of his own medicine when an INLA unit pulled off the operation of the decade and blew him to bits inside the 'impregnable' Palace of Westminster. The nauseous Margaret Thatcher snivelled on television that he was an 'incalculable loss'—and so he was—to the British ruling class.

Jesus lads

https://www.scribd.com/document/356942234/Young-2015

article about the workers' party's relationship with north korea

Our friends indeed

a highlight:

After returning from North Korea, Garland told Paddy Woodworth, who was a freelance journalist and a WPI member from 1974-1984, that he admired the health care and education system in the DPRK but that the personality cult was too excessive and wasteful. Woodworth was going to write an article for the
Workers’ Life on the odd personality cult surrounding Kim Il Sung’s regime but Garland reprimanded him. Garland said to him, “Ah come on now Paddy, I’m looking for support from these people.” Garland told Brian Hamley and Scott Millar in an interview that they “weren’t under illusions” about the reality of life in the DPRK. However, they sympathized with the situation of a small, isolated country that was also divided and “were trying to do what they could themselves.” However, Garland grew frustrated with the North Korean government’s costly campaign to popularize Kim Il Sung abroad as a great communist theorist. For example, he told the North Koreans “that putting full-page ads into the Irish Times of Kim Il Sung’s thoughts was a waste of money because nobody f------n’ read them.”

I gave up on that book about the Official IRA when Official Sinn Fein turned into the Workers Party, by then it was just tedious 70s left wing factional politics ... in Ireland, which made it even more boring tbh.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/families-demand-prosecutions-as-film-names-suspects-in-loughinisland-massacre-1.3280468

New Gibney

what a nightmare

The film suggests that:
RUC Special Branch were aware of UVF plans to kill before the massacre happened;
police destroyed evidence, including the getaway car;
suspects were warned they were about to be interviewed in advance of their arrest;
there were informers in the gang responsible for the deaths

we drove all the way through the north for the first time ever last time through. I grew up in an IRA-friendly American house - an official stayed with us when I was a kid - to see the north at last was heavy.

What gets me about the north is how small a place it is. A place you can drive fully around in a car in one shift. The density of trauma is astonishing, there's barely a townland name, a wood or a crossroads that doesn't trigger a dim or sharp memory of atrocity.

It's also an astonishingly beautiful piece of country. Fucking humans man.

maybe along the coast

You take everything so littoraly

i sea what you did there

I'm not shore I understood.

I landed it right in front of you

darragh otm but then also giant lol on the ensuing exchange

Gerry Adams announces intention to step down next year.

Now there is a complex legacy

Just take a look at who his enemies were and achieving complexity looks more like grace.

His enemies number more than just oppressor brits and obstinate unionists, not to understate what Catholics faced.

will be weird to have a post-conflict sinn fein leadership. though i feel like adams sticking around as president so long was a bit of a triumph of ego over political nous from him.

Maybe so

That said I dunno is what SF are for now. Lairy Moo ain't the calibre.

aye i suppose that is true.

there's a new bio of gerry

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n22/owen-bennett-jones/i-only-want-to-keep-my-hand-in

Eamonn Mallie is the Irish times northern correspondent and always worth catching his articles on the personalities. Be surprising if he didn't have a few collections or biographies worth checking out

He has memoirs due, just checked his site.

His biography on said site is a little smalltime and luvvie, I wouldn't let it out me off

Oglaigh na hEireann announces ceasefire

Presumably all ten of them will be concentrating full time on the drug trade now so.

so is that the lot then?

Oh god no there's another two or three yet

yes based on wikipedia real and continuity are still holding out

is that the "real" IRA or is that the "continuity" IRA? or are they the same thing?

which that? oglaigh na hEireann, continuity IRA and real IRA are difft orgs w/difft histories/politics etc -- over time there has been personnel overlap and a sense that, if a place in the ideological array is vacated by one of them (or by someone else) another will move to occupy that place

but they remain distinct

if you are a nerd with a magnifying glass

Yeah it's an overlapping kaleidoscope

as i seem to recall this is the Real IRA splinter group Oglaigh na hEireann, there was/is also a Continuity IRA splinter group that uses the same name. And yes, there have been collaborations and sharing of members for sure.

also iirc the Continuity IRA also styles itself Oglaigh na hEireann

As does get this the Irish army

Kind of like Amon Duul and Amon Duul II.

... but with less members.

If I were starting one I'd go with na Fianna I think

XP lol but fair

i would call my dissident group IRA Classic

Mega-IRA

i can't believe it's not ourselves alone

can't believe there was an actual real ulster ~freedom fighters~

seriously LADS

Ach those lads don't mind those biys

Hey, freedom to annoy the living hell out of everyone, don't knock it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvamU4v1rjk

Never heard of this crew before

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailtir%C3%AD_na_hAis%C3%A9irghe

The party wished to create a fascist one-party state ruled by a leader known as a 'Ceannaire'. Aiséirghe promised full employment, an end to emigration (by making it a criminal offence to leave the country), discrimination against Jews and freemasons and the reconquest of Northern Ireland by the massive conscript army. They also promised to make the use of the English language in public illegal after five years in power[8]

The party intended for the state to stay out of World War II until the participants were worn out and then emerge as a world leader.[9]

The party intended for the state to stay out of World War II until the participants were worn out and then emerge as a world leader.

This is funny though.

can’t fault their ambition i guess

rope-a-doping geopolitics

Wait till they're all asleep then we take over.

if Hitler had got these lads involved in Barbarossa, there would have been some lightening victories alright!

mainly for the Red Army tbf!

"Adolf Hitler said that he aimed to arrange the history of Europe for 1,000 years. But we Irish, it is fated for us to co-operate with arranging the affairs of the world for all eternity!"

Nothing wrong with a bit of patriotism, lads.

Anyone Oliver j was down with could safely be doused lit and left

Often a vibe offve Irish language fanatics that stinks of these lads and their ilk imo

i’ll be honest i’m having trouble squaring ‘become world leader’ with ‘make it illegal to leave the country’ but i’m sure they had it all worked out

Oh twas only emigration holding us back the whole time

If we couldve kept them and forced them into military service or labour what a nation might we have forged

ireland in the 40s was definitely held back by not being socially conservative enough and being far too cosmopolitan and outward looking

also too many people speaking the old sacs bearla

Just a few more million starved, penned and whipped into misery is all we wanted by god

The real enemy was the fucking Christian Brothers industrial schools. But obv picking up the slack from a defeated 6th army against a force bigger than your country might seem pretty sensible when your on very strong shrooms, in the pre countrymeters.info era!

Gearóid Ó Cuinneagáin (born Gerald Cunningham[1]; 1910–1991) was an Irish far right politician born in Belfast in present-day Northern Ireland.[2]

He originally worked as a tax clerk in the Department of Finance before resigning when refused leave to improve his Irish.[3]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/new-dissident-group-issues-execution-threat-to-drug-dealers-1.3460001

im howling with laughter at this photo of this new dissy group

fearsome looking bunch of silver service waiters there!

the guy sitting down didnt put his balaclava on right

let's have a quick chorus of "Mammy" then lads

the guy sitting down didnt put his balaclava on right

― well bissogled trotters (Michael B), Friday, April 13, 2018 11:42 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i still can't figure out what's going on with that lad.

https://i.imgur.com/qeg6njm.png

see i had an observation upthread that sexual perversity feeds into some of this shit

freddie stakeknife, both-sides (three sides?) player, double agent hitman, up to his neck and subject of major controversies over british collusion in planned and known murders

done for bestiality porn the day

not. fuckin. normal.

obviously a lot of evil bastards in the ra but scappatici is something else. spending your days torturing and murdering for a cause you don't even believe in, torturing and murdering people you know have done nothing "wrong" to cover your tracks.

the internal security unit was one of the dafter organizational decisions of the ra. going from the old structure of brigades and all that, which were an intelligence nightmare, everyone in a local area knowing all their fellow volunteers and where they lived etc. the active service unit model makes a lot more sense. then you give internal security access to everyone, and you get a mole at the top of it. whole organization compromised

love a bit of armchair paramilitarism

A terrible man.

always good to see ye in here lads tbf

I've kind of fallen off my few years of obsession with the troubles. miss it a little bit. lebanese civil war and modern iranian history are the new obsession.

glamour of the continental game trevor

bearded men brought together by their shared love of high explosives, you just never get tired of seeing it

There's apparently the possibility that a couple of volunteers fought alongside the PLO in Lebanon, which I would love to find out more about.

i can't believe it's not ourselves alone

― mark s, Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:28 PM (ten months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^slept on imo

It did tickle me I admit

arah lads is it yerselves alone thats in it

i would call my dissident group IRA Classic

― khat person (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 23 January 2018 17:21 (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Mega-IRA

― remember the lmao (darraghmac), Tuesday, 23 January 2018 17:24 (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i can't believe it's not ourselves alone

― mark s, Tuesday, 23 January 2018 17:28 (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yknow you're right mark this was fuckin quality

anyway i came in here to note that now is about the right time in ethan hawkes life and career that he plays billy wright, what dye think

haha, he'd look the part if he slimmed down.

not sure what his attempt at a portadown burr would be like.

better than kevin spaceys crumlin lookit

I really fancied a girl who lived on the same estate as me. She was really rebellious and very much into the struggle. I thought she'd be impressed with my joining the IRA. Needless to say, I got 18 years, went to jail and never saw her again.

— Seán ó Conghaile (@SeanConnolly67) June 1, 2019

you hate to C it

rip u daft cunt

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Frazer

lol

"victims rights campaigner"

Willie Frazer. You utter utter cock: http://t.co/rN2AJEsUMM pic.twitter.com/H8ZstEOQMV

— LAD (@LADFLEG) February 15, 2014

I actually almost yelled at that on this train.

Let’s remember him as he would have liked.

As a Trump fan who thinks the threat to nuke the North could knock the paddies into line
https://youtu.be/fI68I5g1H0A

The time he dressed up as an Islamist extremist to attend court (!) in protest at him being charged under the same hate crime laws as a brown person
https://youtu.be/6RL_eEM3xTA

Or as the guy who goes off at flags?

In May 2012, after seeing the Italian flag being flown as part of a cultural event held in Donaghmore's St Patrick's Primary School and mistaking it for the Irish Tricolour, Frazer accused the school for 4-to-11-year-old children of being "the junior headquarters of SF/IRA youth", stating on Facebook that "I wounder do they also train the children in how to use weapons, for it seems they can do what they wont."(sic) Concerned for the safety of students and the school's reputation, teachers informed police of the accusations and photographs of the school posted by Frazer were later removed from Facebook.

In 2014 Frazer attacked the BBC for having a supposed Gaelic Athletic Association top on the soap EastEnders and that "it glorified terrorism" and the IRA. The top in question turned out to be a PE top from a Ballymena school. When asked if he wanted to apologise for the mistake he refused.

Following the 2013 horse meat contamination in burgers scandal Frazer gave an interview to The University Times in which he claimed horse meat had actually been introduced to the food chain by the IRA five years before the scandal broke. He also claimed that republicans were behind "old fat cows that are 30 months old" being sold for food before adding that "a blind eye has been turned to it" and that "this is the kind of thing that's going on that we're sick of".

oh can't you tell
oh can't you seeeeeee
the IRA will sell auld beef

Just mad I can’t find a video of him dressed up in his sash going “what did you say, you slabber?!”

the hash my father etc

Following the 2013 horse meat contamination in burgers scandal Frazer gave an interview to The University Times in which he claimed horse meat had actually been introduced to the food chain by the IRA five years before the scandal broke. He also claimed that republicans were behind "old fat cows that are 30 months old" being sold for food before adding that "a blind eye has been turned to it" and that "this is the kind of thing that's going on that we're sick of".

fucking hell. dying at this

what a piece of work

I feel a bit sad that how someone who grew up playing GAA in school could become such a bitter human being...some of willie’s greatest hits Chris Morris would find hard to write

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/quinn-executive-kevin-lunney-attacked-and-dumped-on-roadside-1.4022242

legitimate

John Ignatius Quinn, commonly known as Seán Quinn,[1] is an Irish businessman and conglomerateur.

chiefskiss

main suspect in quinn assaults/kidnapping died this morning during a derbyshire raid of his property

sounds big

"The man, who's in his fifties, is reported to have taken ill while police searched his home in Derbyshire."

amazing the info available on him all a sudden

martin mcguinness cousin. fairly notorious bandit, smuggler, atm thief, what-have-you for many years

Member of Parliament for Derby North since 8 June 2017.

"dublin jimmy"

this is a fuckin amazin story tbh

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/10/28/news/john-bosco-o-hagan-i-wish-i-had-never-tried-to-help-sean-quinn-1748052/

drive a cement truck between this article and the final line

for balance, let's remember about the brits:

www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/kevin-lunney-abduction-suspect-cyril-mcguinness-helped-ira-bomb-london-in-1990s-but-died-in-police-raid-today-1-9135569/amp

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/kevin-lunney-abduction-suspect-cyril-mcguinness-helped-ira-bomb-london-in-1990s-but-died-in-police-raid-today-1-9135569/amp