Going To Law School

Why is law school preferable to you to working for a few years to figure out what you want to do? There are lots of jobs available to graduates of colleges such as yours (if I remember correctly).

There are many many different flavors of lawyering out there, but even if one doesn't suit you, you can be a law librarian or a teacher or a politician for sure, or maybe offer legal advice to the poor.

What is your idea of hell? Does it involve a difficult course of study or the idea of doing hard, tedious work? Does it involve competition among classmates? Does it involve great financial burdens or rewards?

Your job opportinities after law school will include jobs that require a law degree + jobs that do not require a law degree - jobs that require a medical degree or other specialized graduate degree (and likely minus professional athlete and ballerina). Alternatives to law school include alternate higher education, getting a job or being unemployed.

(basically what gabbneb said)

In all seriousness, however, your questions seem to indicate that it is very important to you what other people think you should do with your life. Deciding whether to take on the potentially huge debt burden of law school is probably one of the worst life decisions you can make by committee. If you have to borrow money for law school, your family, friends and classmates aren't going to be the ones with the huge debt load around their neck, you are. Even if you don't have to borrow money for law school, well, in this economy I'm sure there are tons of people who would gladly take your place off the wait list if you decided to defer.

My completely subjective impression has been that once you get a job and can do it the only people who are sensitive about where you went to law school are those who went to really elite law schools or those who went to really obscure law schools. It really doesn't matter if you can do the job unless you have your heart set on being a constitutional law professor at Yale law school straight after graduation.

Some lawyers do, in fact seem dissatisfied with their lives because it seemed like the easy thing to do and they were peer/parent pressured into going to law school straight out of college, worked many years at a job they hated to pay off their student loans and then wished they hadn't spent the best years of their lives doing that. It may be worth a year or more of deferring and doing something you've always wanted to do -- travel, apply for fellowships, explore other careers, bartending on a resort island, mooching off your parents -- whatever you feel like doing. Either you will have fewer regrets about things you might have wanted to try in life or you will have a greater appreciation of having the option of studying for a coveted professional degree that many people not as fortunate as you never have the realistic option of pursuing.

Hope that helps and good luck.

gabb and felicity both raised good points. i have some points, too, but i'll do it WHEN I'M DONE WITH THIS FUCKING MEMO!

Felicity's post above is very well-written and helpful, but I have a few more questions.

Firstly, I am not native to the US (originally from England), and it has been a while since I have been involved with academia, so I have no idea how to start this process.

Which resources should I be using to find the right schools and how to apply?

Which tests will I need to take (GREs, LSATs, etc.) and what sort of entry requirements are there?

When will I need to start applying?

I am not particularly concerned with attending the biggest and best, but if I am going to be in for financial hardships then I need to justify it for myself. I'm based in California, so I guess I would be looking at schools here first.

if you want to go to l-school this fall, i think that it might be too late for some -- if memory serves me correctly, applications are due feb. 1 or (maybe?) march 1. you have to contact each individual school.

california has some very good l-schools. Stanford and Cal-Berkeley (Boalt Hall) obviously. ucla, cal-davis, cal-hastings, and loyola-marymount are also very good. the rest, i dunno. i would avoid the ones that aren't ABA-accredited (and CA has a number of those) -- b/c you won't be able to sit for any bar exam outside of CA if you go to one of those.

Actually, I'm talking about applying for NEXT fall, 2005.

Do some schools specialize in certain law disciplines more than others? Is an English BA an acceptable degree for application or do they favor law undergrads?

Also, you should strongly consider taking an LSAT prep course if you can swing it. If nothing else, buy a book on it and practice.

There is no undergrad law major at most top American colleges. An English BA is completely acceptable, common even, and I don't think any one major is favored. I wonder at times if the sciences aren't better preparation for legal study than the humanities.

Last but not least, people that attended/still attend law school - is it everything you had hoped for (for whatever reason you decided to go)? Would you recommend it?

i would recommend trying to get some inside info on whatever law school it is that you will attend -- you will spend 3 years there, so you might as well go where it won't be too painful.

But that's a separate question from whether I would recommend it. D, I'm just not sure how to answer that. Law school in and of itself is neither good nor bad. As some posters have suggested upthread, that question can only be judged in relation to what you want in life and work.

If you have a strong desire to practice law (lawyer) or to create law (politics, legislation, lobbying, policy-making) then law school is the way to go. If however you suspect that your heart is really elsewhere (publishing, journalism, teaching, business, etc), then I'd say think real hard about whether 3 yrs of law school is the best way to get there. And if you're not sure about what you want to do, then I'd say law school is not the right place for you now. Maybe later it will be, but not now.

Sorry if this sounds redundant and obvious.

I'm about a month or so away from hearing from law schools (I got some good advice on old threads which I'll try to find). Law schools like people who have worked and have diverse experience, so don't think that your background is a negative.

Biggest thing I'd reiterate is to really make sure you want to invest the time and money (average debt leaving law school is $100,000). It's understood that law school is highly competitive -- both to get in and once you're there -- in the sense of the school you get into and how well you do have a major impact on your career. Not that that should necessarily guide you, but just know it upfront.

Oh. And for $10 or $20, you can look at the US News law school rankings online. They'll give you a good sense of what sorts of grades and LSAT scores get you into what schools.

You've already heard about the cost, which is significant. You should enjoy speaking in public and be confident about your ability to do so, and you should be competitive by nature--these qualities will serve you well. Think hard about your decision; many of my law school classmates were completely miserable. It's great for some, but it isn't for everyone. Good Luck!

Now she wishes she'd stayed in, as we would be rich. And, probably, the whole dealing-with-me thing.

but you still gotta spend 3 years there and get the JD in order to sit for the bar and (if you pass) practice.

Not necessarily; it's a decent living, but there is no guarantee of richness--plenty of other careers will bring salaries as high as attorney salaries. Also, in order to make the big bucks, you need to bill upwards of 2000 hours/year, and in order to do this generally must work around 70 hours per week. When you break it down, the time/money ratio can really suck.

I will be joining a City firm as a trainee soon. I feel apprehensive to say the least...

On the other hand, if you are willing to work your ass off to make something work and starve for a few years after law school, there are good jobs as a lawyer to be had.

x-post: all of the smartest, most interesting paralegals I ever worked with who took the job as a taste test all decided to do something else with their lives.

everyone asks me if i want to go to law school, and I always tell them no. once you work at a big firm, the luster runs off real quick. its like 'do you want to work 12 hours a day every day, have nice clothes and a nice car but absolutely no time whatsoever to enjoy them?' also, if i ever get into the situation of having a family or whatever, work would totally dominate all of your time you could be spending with them.

ive heard theres some decent firms out there that let you leave at 530, but i would assume that theyre the exception rather than the rule.

paralegaling isnt a bad gig tho. The money isnt that bad, there's tons of overtime opportunities if youre into that sort of thing, and the hours arent too heinous most of the time.

in california at least.. you can go to school for it, but its a colossal waste of time and money. All you really need is a bachelors (and its one of the few fields where having an arts/humanity degree is helpful. mine is in history) and a legal employment agency. almost all law firms use legal recruiting/temp agencies because they dont want to screen the employees themselves and they tend to get decent people as a result. i got my start by answering a legal recruiter ad looking for someone with a BA, an 'attention for detail and organizational skills.'

once you actually get your foot in the door all you need to do is work in a law firm for a year, get some good experience and then have someone who passed the bar to sign a form that basically cites some stuff from the california business practices codes and statutes and BAM. youre a paralegal. no certificate, no school, none of that.

So yes, I second the idea of working in the area of law in which you are interested before doing anything drastic.

Also, to quote some lawyer friends of mine: "law school is basically trade school. Do not go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer." So yes, if you think you'd like to be something other than a lawyer, there is probably a better way of getting there.

amen, and so MFOTM that it coulda been me who said that :-)

theres a grip of legal placement agencies. i used kelly legal. they seem to place alot of people with big firms. or at least my own firm. which is big.

if youre up north in the bay area, try landmark legal. nice people.

thats the beauty of the legal profession. you dont have to do half the work you would trying to find other kinds of work. i got my job here after being unemployed for 5 weeks a year and a half ago when the economy was SHIT-TAY. paralegaling is kind alike nursing in that respect. quite recession-proof.

others that'll get you far: michigan, vanderbilt, georgetown.

And Ivy Leaguers have gotten laid off from BIGLAW in the last few years, and I am informed that positions are much harder to come by.

Pick up one of those books about what you can do with a legal degree besides practice law, and you'll see very quickly that most of those things involve having some other type of experience that you can supplement with a law degree--or else they are even more mind-numbing than being an attorney (employee benefits coordinator, for example). Are there people with law degrees who went on to other fun, exciting non-legal careers? Sure. Same with MBAs, MAs, PhDs, or any other graduate degree. John Grisham was an attorney--but getting a law degree doesn't qualify you to become a best-selling author unless you already have the requisite talent and discipline.

What are you doing now, Colin? Did you cash out of some NY Biglaw firm and move on to calmer, smaller pastures, or did you leave law in general?

theres one lawyer at our firm whose making it work for him tho. this past year he's billed something like 700 hours, all the while raking in 6 figure salary. he'll be politely let go in a couple more months and then he can probably ease into something else that suits him.

Try not to be assholes.

Thanks,
adam.

I just ate a burrito in a major law firm!

Next to documents!

Ok, I lied. I actually ended up spilling Pellegrino on my printer. Good times.

This was bad news.

no.

This is like when you run a marathon, and the rush of endorphins that come from the pain having stopped make you feel so good that you erroneously assume it was the running itself that produced this feeling, and suddenly you think, "you know, long distance running is rather good isn't it?" Conveniently forgetting that your thoughts two minutes prior were "fuck shit fuck shit fuck shit fuck shit fuck shit..."

have you considered an MPA degree? their utility is more debatable, but they might be more on point for thinktank work. in that world, it helps to specialize narrowly, i would imagine.

Are you asking if you can work 60-65 hours a week AND go to law school? Then no, definitelty. Are you asking if 60-65 hours is enough time to put in AT law school per week, I would say it's more than enough. I went to a decent law school, an I would say I averaged about 40 hours a week. You learn to be more efficient as you go. The first year you spend more time, and of course there are times during the semester when you really have to ramp up, but generally, I found that 40-50 hours was plenty. But this was an American law school. ( I also knew people that did night school and worked 50 hours a week and seemed OK, but I wouldn't choose to do that).

My advice to anyone thinking about going to law school: If you are going because you want to be a lawyer, then definitely do it. If you are just going because you are a smart person, and you want a good career, don't go. For people that don't have a strong desire to actually BE a lawyer, I've found that law school, and, even more so, practicing law, are a miserable experience.

"I seem to have missed this, so are you interested in becoming a lawyer, Tim? I get this image of you arguing cases via a combination of grime white labels and references to Baudrillard. "

Yeah I haven't really decided yet. Since the beginning of the year I've been working about two and a half days a week in a a managerial paralagal position at a large plaintiff law firm, and this partial step towards, like, a real job has made me more relaxed about doing further postgrad study (in humanities) and just seeing what happens.

I'm not adverse to law, but it's hard to see myself doing it all the time I guess.

It scared me to realise recently that I was in my sixth year of uni - which I went to straight from school. I've been studying forever!

Closed book, that's way harsh. Otherwise, yeah, 3 hours & 100% is where it's at.

Best of luck Gem!! Admin's a bit of a bitch isn't it? Privative clauses, jurisdictional error, procedural fairness, improper purposes...

Yeah I meant 60/65 of working on law stuff! That's a big relief, thanks.

Lawyers are helpful on this thread!

I can of course gloat because I've finished all my exams but I might get a kick in the rear, near the end of summer if I find out I failed my evidence exam, studying for I forewent, in order to watch "love & death" with alba, ally c, RJG, & beer set about studiously and efficiently.

I think this is the way it's supposed to be - it's almost always gonna be a bit of a trivial technical point anyway yeah?

Glad it all went okay - snatch an hour to yourself tonight!

i guess i'm taking the exam in early october so i still don't know how smart i am. i also pretty much hate writing application essays.

i'm getting a very good recommendation from a former philosophy professor and she said i MUST apply to NYU. i tried telling her i am not smart enough but she said that's garbage and girls always say they aren't smart enough. hmm ok i think i will make it a mega-reach. oh i also don't have 37k a year or whatever.

i already do that.

Let's see some results.

Anyway, so I've been reading for her, and it's been interesting, since I do very well at it -- I mean I'm not entirely sure, since she gets double time because she has to hear it instead of read it, and I keep forgetting that I'd have to work everything out twice as fast. Still, the fact that I'd probably do very well on the test makes me think I should take the test -- and yet I have no interest in going to law school.

Doing logic games when you have almost no eyesight and can't read your diagrams reliably is no fun at all.

if only my knowledge were transferable, I'd maybe move

for now i think i'm definitely applying to george washington, u. of washington, ohio state, boston university, and u. of michigan. i'm still thinking about this, though. if i did very well on the LSAT i will apply to NYU and berkeley, but i feel like my chances of getting into either of them are pretty bad. i'm also pretty worried about financing this venture. i want to do something public interest-y like human rights or poverty, but i might leave with a buttload of loans and have to defend fat rich guys for 10 years while i pay $1000/month. i don't mind at all being poor as long as i'm not in debt. this sucks.

sorry for making this my personal law school application diary, i just want the internet to know.

where do they usually list jobs (nyc). obv, i haven't seen any listings on idealist.org. any help would be greatly appreciated.

eisbar and others seemed to make it seem like the jobs aren't too hard to find.

colin, from what you've posted it's sounds like the experience of paralegal work will turn me off the profession, but it seems worth a look.

i still can't quite wrap my head around why the big firms are so awful, but i don't doubt the claims

But if you wanna check it out, go for it. The money's ok.

Have you been lobbying any lawmakers on this?

I don't necessarily dislike the nature of the work, but the profession itself and the money that most of us have to pay to gain entree thereto are both serious, serious downsides.

The tip about going to a law school where you want to live? Unless you go to UVa, G-town, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, et al., that is the absolute truth. I just moved to LA after going to Catholic in DC, and I am not looking forward to months of trying to find a job. Thank god I have a gainfully employed spouse.

xpost i haven't worked in corporate america, i spent my last three yeare teaching in the south bronx in the new york city teaching fellows. i needed a change. i imagine this will be a schockingly drastic one.

My better half (Mr. Que) works in the library of a large DC firm. He likes it, but would never ever ever consider law as a career. Anyhow you might want to look into law library jobs--there seem to be a lot of them, even for newbies.

Haha, Q, I never heard that story:)

8th grade english.

the first year was hell, but i really enjoyed the other two.

i will do a and b but c is out of the question

I hear copyright law is exciting and intellectually fulfilling.

Perfect lawyer material, then!

(haha. okay, kidding. they drank a lot of beer and coffee too.)

"i don't have a tv" but i'm afraid i won't want to do pleasure reading anymore (which keeps me from wanting to die or do meth). but i'm not sure how much of horror stories i should believe.

also gabnebb or someone else? let's say i want to be a labor lawyer (partly because i care about the workers but partly because i would make slightly more money at it (right?) than poverty lawyering, which i am also interested in but i have mad loans to pay off and can't make it on 30k/year). so they said you can just take whatever classes you're interested in so you wouldn't have to just take only stuff related to whatever kind of law you want to go into. is that really true? like if i took poverty law and whatever random theory classes i want it would be ok and i could still be a labor lawyer? i don't have to worry about this until spring but i want to know now. also i know i might totally change my mind but the question would still stand, i guess.

i would keep in mind that you might think you're interested in a particular area because you imagine yourself enjoying work for certain kinds of clients, but later learn that the actual substantive law of that area doesn't interest you very much (or that the practice may be different from how you imagined it). or vice versa.

also yeah all those things about not liking the actual law part of things i know that. which is why the question means kind of in general.

xpost - space law does in fact exist, at least at your larger law schools. i imagine it has to do with satellites or something and is very boring and populated by not gonna happen doods.

labour law is a good idea, i think!

haha omg

or i want to be the next jim "the hammer" shapiro

maybes - federal courts (should probably take eventually, especially if litigation-oriented, but maybe save for later; also, hard), some sort of regulatory law (environmental, say, or the more general administrative law, probably important if you want to do employment discrimination)), tax law (hard, but maybe not for math types, and if it turns out relevant to something you want to do you probably want to start early), labor and/or employment/employment discrimination law (i'd be wont to wait for third year, personally, but if it's a particular interest of yours, you probably want to start now; i never got around to them), secured transactions (boring and not necessarily relevant practically, but potentially important theoretically), family law, trusts and estates (maybe save for later?), international law (poli sci-like, i think), a research and/or theory-oriented class

i took a legal theory class as my first-year elective and while i had some brief qualms later about whether i should have taken a class or two that never made the cut in the end, i was very happy with my choice at the time.

i don't really get how to do a good job. they keep telling us how smart everyone is so that means i can get a C in everything even if i try hard because everyone is as smart as i am? i don't think they are though. i don't understand everything (esp. contracts, wtf) but people don't seem any smarter than anyone else i know. any idiot can go to law school, amirite? i think the reading is kind of fun sometimes, it's like puzzles.

same thing

people don't seem any smarter than anyone else i know

maybe you're smarter, but it's v. dangerous to assume. and smarts don't count as much as time/effort.

i think it is better for me to think people aren't that smart. because i think i'm really smart and when they tell me everyone is just as smart as me i go UH OH but as long as i think they aren't that smart (like when they are acting like bros and saying "hey, bro, you gonna get drunk this weekend?" "yeeeahh bro!" "alright, bro!") i feel ok. i should go do work now bye

Someone may have addressed this, but... I, too, am on track to become a labor lawyer. If your school offers any labor/employment law classes, take them. I work at a union-side law firm right now and my hiring was contingent on my having taken labor law. You aren't foreclosed from being a labor attorney if you don't take labor and employment classes, but it will make you more attractive to potential employers. The most important thing, I think, is to get some experience, either working for a labor law firm or in some sort of public interest worker rights capacity, presuming you want to work union/worker side.

Oh and also? Labor lawyers don't make much more than public interest attorneys. At least the good guys don't. Sorry.

Also, my philosphy for second and third year was to take classes that a) were labor and employment related and b) interesting because look, I'm tired of law school and I will not sit in a class of 100 people to listen to someone drone on about secured transactions, nor will I read because just thinking the words "secured transactions" gives me a headahce. A class of 13 people discussing public sector labor law or critical race theory, though? I'm totally into it. Given how stupid expensive law school is, I don't want to waste my money taking a class that I won't attend or care about. But that's just me.

xpost i didn't think they made a whole lot either. the idea of secured transactions makes me want to PUKE but i am all over critical race theory. i guess we'll seeeeeeeee

I should clarify - at least not to start. You can make like $70k once you make partner or make your way up to lead in-house counsel for a union (a strong union at least, not if you work for like, the Wobblies). But starting salaries for union side attorneys in Chicago run from $35 - $50k, which, with $150k in debt or thereabouts is kind of alarming. If your school has any kind of LRAP, you might be better off doing public interest law for the required period of time. You can do employment-related public interest stuff if you want to move into labor law when you meet the requirements for loan forgiveness.

Yes. Career choices are as varied as those who would make them.

Nope.

I have mediocre grades, but will likely score in the low to mid 170s on the LSAT and have a few years of work experience. I'm pretty handy with the essays and have a couple of good recs lined up. So I know I can get into a fairly high-level school if not top 10. I'm not wildly enthused about lawyering and the law, but I do have a law-related job and sometimes find it relatively interesting.

I'm not a hugely driven person and would generally like to have time for other things in my life beside my job - particularly music, but I would still like some challenge in my life.

So the question is, with a degree from a top-notch, if not top-10, law school, is it realistic to expect to be able to find a good-paying (like at high-five/low-six figure), moderately interesting that isn't insanely demanding? Or is this just a fantasy?

however, i reckon it would be pretty hard to get through a law degree, particularly at a top 10 school where the student body might be highly competitive, if you weren't really into it... and if the US legal education system is anything like Australia, with more graduates than legal grad positions, poor marks in your law degree heavily restricts your choices about where you go after you graduate.

My understanding is that the "isn't insanely demanding" bit is a total fantasy.

I can't imagine looking myself in the mirror every morning if I was still in the IP division of a big pharma company. Soul-deadening stuff, for real.

and will be starting (STARTING) at 135k when she graduates next year from the U of MN. debt won't be an issue.

law school is insanely demanding, yes, but if you suck it up and work for the Man, you'll make bags of money and pay of your education fairly quickly. alternately, a law degree doesn't necessarily mean actually working for a law firm, or even in law. loads of people get law degrees and never end up practicing.

(And is it realistic to think I can write a good essay when I can't even seem to put a sentence together? Gah!)

^^^ this could be a problem though. you know that there's, like, a LOT of writing in law school right?

This is enough information for me to say, "Then don't go." But why stop there?

will likely score in the low to mid 170s on the LSAT

How do you know this?

and have a few years of work experience.

Unless it's extremely fascinating, specialized, or famous nobel-prize winning type work experience, this doesn't matter.

So I know I can get into a fairly high-level school if not top 10.

No offense, and I only know you through this website and you seem like a very smart and funny person, but how do you know this? When you are competing for positions in top ten schools are are competing against people with excellent grades, lots of references, and high LSAT scores. Not to mention nepotism and name recognition. You might get in, but unless your recs happen to be tenured professors at said top ten law schools or there is a library on campus named after your father, there is really no guarantee about this.

I'm not wildly enthused about lawyering and the law

Then, seriously, do not go to law school.

but I do have a law-related job and sometimes find it relatively interesting.

Your law-related job is not the same as law school or being a lawyer, even if you're doing paralegal work.

I'm not a hugely driven person . . . So the question is, with a degree from a top-notch, if not top-10, law school, is it realistic to expect to be able to find a good-paying (like at high-five/low-six figure), moderately interesting that isn't insanely demanding? Or is this just a fantasy?

You've got three possible paths going to law school: 1) bust your ass night and day to put yourself in the top 10%, get on law review, get summer associate positions at big firms, get involved in lots of extra curriculars of whatever sort and basically be the type of go-getter, 80 hour a week-type guy that the $135k/year firms are going to want to hire; 2) do enough work to stay in the top quarter but let your passion for a particular area of law drive you into the types of jobs and activities that are going to make you the happy in your legal career and make considerably less money; 3) slack for three years, hate law school the entire time, wish you'd done something, anything else because now you're looking at triple-digit debt and you have to practice law, and eventually work doing something you really don't care about, which becomes just another daily grind job and isn't making the mega bucks you were hoping for.

The first one is out, because you're not a particularly driven person. The second one is out, because you don't really care about law school or a law job. That leaves number three, and if you have a fairly interesting law-related job right now, why go through the stress and debt of law school only to come out slightly worse off than you are now?

* Third year law student grappling with the nosy bastards at the character and fitness committee, trying not to think about the two days of essay and bubble testing that await me at the end of July.

How do you know this?

Well, here I have to defend myself. I have a second job as an LSAT instructor, and I consistently score between 170-175 on practice tests.

Otherwise everything you're telling me sounds about right. Are you in law school now or are you a lawyer? When I explain these things to my wife I'd like to be able to say "A woman on ILX, who does ---, told me."

(And is it realistic to think I can write a good essay when I can't even seem to put a sentence together? Gah!)

^^^ this could be a problem though. you know that there's, like, a LOT of writing in law school right?

-- gbx (polarbea...), September 26th, 2006.

Here I was just referring to my garbled post. Writing is pretty natural for me, actually.

Okay, that makes sense - and I didn't intend to come across accusatorily, so I'm really sorry if I did. My understanding is that actual LSAT scores remain pretty true to practice test scores. My final score was within one point of the score I consistently got on practice tests.

I'm a third year law student who went back to law school at the ripe old age of 31. I would classify myself as a "number two" above. I spent a brief period of time as a number one and decided that maintaining the necessary level of hard work required to remain in that category would kill me. I'm a passionate labor and employment do-gooder, anyway, and nobody cares about your grades in that field as long as your loyal to the cause. Oh I also go to a second tier law school (I think we're in the 80s or 90s).

Going to law school as an adult, and a married one (I am also married, no kids, three cats) presents a whole different passel of challenges that straight-from-undergrad-ers don't have to worry about over and above the regular difficulties of law school. I'm guessing you've got friends and a social life and hobbies and those will all take a serious hit if you go to law school no matter how hard to try to avoid it. Then there's the sad truth of how completely annoying the majority of your classmates will be just by virtue of their utter lack of life experience... Or maybe that's just me. I am a pretty grumpy old bitch sometimes.

Anyway, my first instinct when someone says they don't care too much about law or being a lawyer but want to go to law school is to dive tackle them out of the way of the onrushing bus because the bottom line is this: law school is three years of intensive study of the law, leading to a job that is fully immersed in the law (with some extremely limited exceptions generally available only to those with outstanding academic performance or an existing network of connections within a specific field). A JD isn't an all-purpose degree. Going to law school without really being interested in the law is like going to a very expensive, difficult, and stressful cooking school without really having any interest in cooking.

It's my happy place.

This is what I'm worried about. Am I looking at four...no, wait...eigh--twelve years of no hobbies? :/

ahahahahaha

She's not *making* me do anything, but she keeps saying stuff like "You're so good at this stuff. You love to argue and over-analyze things. Why don't you just do it?" as though it were all as easy as taking the LSAT. So here I am going to ILX for back-up.

I have enjoyed reading the theories as to how easy it is to get a job, how unimportant grades are, and how the practice of law is from people who are still students, though. How enlightening. I'll enjoy your updates upon graduation, and during your job search.

Being a lawyer may make you bitter.

I'm sure some do, but I woudn't say that's a given - the firm where I clerk starts associates at $50k. You are absolutely correct that $70,000 is more than $34,000, though.

Bottom line - go to top 10 school, be in top 25-10% of your class, schmooze hard, get posh job in posh firm, work 70 hours a week monday through sunday.

No billable hours? Dare to dream. Billable hours can eat me.

Don't go to law school for the money unless you're willing to work insanely long hours both during and after you graduate and are willing to do work for clients that you might find distasteful and make arguments you might find equally distasteful.

I also fear that my interest may be too academic, if that makes sense. At times that makes me consider legal academia as an option. I know from previous grad school that I have the temperament for acedemic work, and my exposure to legal scholarship gives me the (possibly false) impression that it favors a wider-ranging and more interdisciplinary approach than other quarters of the academy. But is the job market as dire as in the humanities/social sciences? And is the choice between practice and scholarship one I'd have to make in my first year of school? Please to make my life decisions for me, ILE.

there might be more choices than just practise or academia if you are interested in black letter law, which i suppose is what you mean about the academic interest. for example, you might look for work at whatever organisation drafts legislation in your country, or the local law reform commission, or go into some kind of legislative policy type work. i have just commenced as an associate to a supreme court judge and it is ALL scholarly stuff. which is cool and completely different to what my mates in firms are doing.

Become a law librarian. Get a joint J.D./M.L.S. and work in an academic law library.

Some schools have tuition repayment programs that help you A LOT with your debt if you choose public interest or something low-paying. You should look into this more if debt is the only thing keeping you from doing it.

Funny to read my old posts on this thread. I think I'm already in a pretty different mental place than I was 1-2 years ago. Still thinking law school - Fall 2008 at this point - but feeling less entangled with other peoples' ideas of what I should do and more able to sort it out for myself. Starting to think music/entertainment/IP law might be a good field and have been speaking to a few people who have done it.

One question - I have a 170 LSAT from last year and not very good grades (though I'll be 5+ years out of school when I apply). I know I didn't do my best (I scored 175 on my last practice test, and I think I could prepare more than I did) - should I retake the LSAT or is it not worth it?

170 is good

Yeah, I'm just wondering if I should try to edge up a few points to help make up for my bad grades

i'm not sure you want a better score

You mean it won't do me any good? Or you mean you don't think I really want it?

i mean it might even hurt your chances

i might depend on what you mean by 'bad grades' tho

2.9

so yeah, what i said. i mean yes, there is to some extent such a thing as 'make up for', but a disparity can send a certain message and the greater the disparity the stronger the message.

Interesting point.

on the other hand, from a numbers perspective, either way the school would have to be willing to accept your grades, and the marginally higher the LSAT, the marginally higher their average.

(not like i really know what i'm talking about in any event here)

(also, it helps that you're not applying out of school/there's distance between your LSAT and your grades)

((temporally))

or just dont go to law school at all

fine then

go to the best school that you can get into (fordham is def. w/n reach w/ great LSAT and shitty GPA) -- and, IF you kick ass 1st year, transfer to another school.

i know this for a fact b/c i had a good LSAT and shitty GPA, and fordham accepted me (though i turned them down). i am also aware that there's been some "bracket creep" in the law schools since i've been out.

I'm applying. The ball is rolling. FTW

Requests are out for rec letters and I have some idea of how I'm going to do my essay. My LSDAS account is set.

Is there any reason not to use LSDAS for as much shit as possible? Also is there any really good reason to *target* rec letters to specific schools?

fuck a personal statement. FUCK a personal statement. FUUUUUUCK a personal statement

fuck a forced narrative w/"lessons learned"

I'm sure it is trite to say so, but once you send off your personal statement/forced narrative/application, you are going to feel so much better. But doing them sure is unpleasant.

Downside of doing it early is way to much time to think about it.

For your statement of purpose or whatever, what on earth should you wirite? It says "why do u want 2 go to law school lol" , but does that mean you should describe the area you want to focus on, etc.? ? ?

From what I've read and heard, not really unless you REALLY have a strong, strong interest in a very specific area. Otherwise you'll just sound like a fool since you probably don't know half a shit about law, and they don't really expect you to. I recommend looking through one of those law school essay guides - the Princeton Review one I have is pretty good.

What every admissions guide I read says over and over again is that the essay is your chance to differentiate yourself from other candidates and to show why you are more than just an LSAT score and a GPA. You probably want to talk about some kind of life/work/school experience(s) that influenced your character and/or shaped your decision to go to law school. This by no means needs to be an experience in a pre-law class or legal internship or debate team. You could talk about a sport, a musical interest, a travel experience, your family, really almost anything as long as you can use it to show that you have strong character and strong reasons for attending law school, and also that you can write in an organized, clear and persuasive manner.

i don't know how widely applicable this is, but I used to work at a place where everyone basically applied to law school after a 2-year stint and I proofread a coworker's personal statement that struck me as kind of trite and saccharine and she got into many excellent programs, including Harvard Law. not that I'm recommending that anyone write a trite, saccharine statement, but hers certainly wasn't wonky about the law or even about the law in any direct way. It was just about her.

Also, from what I understand, if your numbers are in the upper middle range or higher for the school you're applying to, your essay isn't going to matter as much. They're going to scrutinize it more carefully when you're a borderline candidate.

this isn't college. isn't a grad school p.s. just a cover letter, basically?

no

I mean not exactly. The book I read has interviews with a bunch of admissions officers at top 20 law schools. They all say that they don't want to see people just repeating whatever is on their resume. At the same time, you're supposed to be more mature and focused than a college applicant, and most schools prefer to see something more relevant than "my study abroad experience" or "I admire my grandma."

But law school is different from other grad schools in that they're not looking for previously acquired content knowledge. An English graduate program expects you to know literature very well. Med school expects you to know science very well. Law schools, for whatever reason, like to think that they're going to be the ones shaping your legal mind, and they're ore interested in seeing good raw material.

more

I don't think a cover letter is supposed to just repeat what's on your resume either (though I'm one of those anti-"objective" people). I think the essay should be a convincing statement of purpose - an argument about why you're choosing to do this that demonstrates some self-knowledge (and knowledge about what you're getting into, though you don't have to know what you're going to do in any specific sense), as opposed to a college statement that's supposed to reveal what's distinct about you that would make the class more interesting.

(which isn't to say that law schools are uninterested in making their classes more interesting, but they're going to do so with people who have a pretty clear sense of purpose with regard to something interesting)

but what do I know, I only got into a few of this top 20 schools. I never took Kaplan or Princeton Review, just a ghetto LSAT course that gave me a lower score than expected (non-marginally lower than when I took it a second time without studying).

I will reiterate what I said a year ago...

Take a LONG, HARD, REALISTIC look at the money end of the decision.

Please. Everyone goes in thinking that they are going to be in the top 10%. The overwhelming odds, obv., are that you will not be.

Me, I got lucky. I landed what is turning out to be a great job that I intend to hold down for a long time. I also have a gainfully employed spouse, so my student loan payments are not crushing.

Still - do not go in blind. This is a SERIOUS financial undertaking.

I don't think you're really contradicting what I'm saying, gabbneb.

don't sweat the personal statement. just write something half-way coherent, and you'll be fine.

I think I'm directly contradicting "What every admissions guide I read says over and over again," but I could be quite wrong. Anyway, yeah, I think it's a numbers game moreso than top colleges are.

Classic: Having my first law school application complete and transmitted (NYU)

Dud: Getting home and finding a typo in the personal statement (I referenced "Harpers Magazine" -- no apostrophe). FUK!!! I READ THAT SHIT SO MANY TIMES AND HAD A FEW OTHER PEOPLE READ IT!!!

Still, it feels great to have the first one sent off, and NYU is a longshot anyway. The rest will be easier to complete now.

Good luck with the applications. Don't fret about the typo. It happens.

thx

Other schools I'm applying to:

Fordham, Penn, Columbia, Cardozo, Brooklyn Law, Rutgers (Newark and maybe Camden), and also William & Mary and Northwestern exclusively because they offered me fee waivers so why not.

Some v. good law schools in that group. You'll be fine.

You seem to have the requisite amount of self-obsession, at least.

Accepted to Cardozo with sizable scholarship - probably going there barring completion of LOL Ivy League Hail Mary pass.

What's the best thing I can do to start preparing myself considering I've been out of school five years and working kind of an easy job?

http://www.coconut-court.com/images/BeachJ450GREEN.jpg

What's the best thing I can do to start preparing myself considering I've been out of school five years and working kind of an easy job?

(1)learn and practice how to take law school exams.

(2) drop some money on a few emmanuels for the first-year classes -- and actually READING them -- so that you aren't befuddled by all of the Socratic hide-the-ball crap you will be exposed to during the next 3 years of yer life.

ugh, I applied to Cardozo and al lthat shit - unfortuantely one of my schools kept losing my transcripts, so my app won't be complete until next week. Waitlist 4 me : { : { : [[[[[ :{;

also, is yer cardozo scholarship conditioned on maintaining a certain GPA/class rank? i was offered a deal like that from seton hall -- essentially, 1st year totally paid for (except living expenses) -- but i passed on it.

that, and the fact that the typical Seton Hall student = EVERY bad stereotype about north jersey in the flesh. but that's just me!

yeah, conditional - a little over half tuition paid first year, second year have to stay in about top 40% of class to maintain full scholarship, and there's a sliding scale after that.

I'm hoping to get offered money at another school to give me some bargaining leverage.

congrats on Cardozo at least. I think my chances are a bit slim at this point with apps in so late :[ ]

I'm hoping to get offered money at another school to give me some bargaining leverage.

ha -- i tried that shit w/ both RU-Newark and Fordham. both told me to go pound sand (fordham b/c they think that their shit doesn't stink b/c they get all the folks who REALLY wanna be @ Columbia or NYU; rutgers-newark b/c they were already super-cheap and don't have as much money to throw around as seton hall had).

doesn't hurt to try, but you may not succeed.

Don't despair. First, you still have a shot. Second, you can always go somewhere lower on your list, work hard and transfer. I met a girl who (in spite of obviously being very bright) got a 143 on her LSAT and could only get into Widener. She kept in close touch with the Temple admissions office, did well her first semester, and was able to transfer second year.

So considering you have better numbers than that to begin with, you probably have options.

My friend at Fordham Law said like 90% of the people there are embarrassed and ashamed that they're at Fordham; Columbia and NYU were their real schools of choice.

fuk I'll be really happy if I get into Fordham.

That description makes it sound kind of like Rutgers undergrad - it's a good school with a lousy atmosphere because everyone there wanted to go somewhere better.

I only applied to the 5 schools I really want to go to; I don't want to gamble my current financial freedom on a school I'm lukewarm about for a chance to transfer somewhere else. If all else fails I can apply next year, but I'll by 26 by Fall 2009

I met a girl who (in spite of obviously being very bright) got a 143 on her LSAT and could only get into Widener. She kept in close touch with the Temple admissions office, did well her first semester, and was able to transfer second year.

that's especially impressive, considering that widener has a C-curve (which TOTALLY fucks up the chances of a lot of that school's graduates).

From the sound of it, it was her continued show of interest in Temple that made the difference. Numbers aren't everything.

What's the best thing I can do to start preparing myself considering I've been out of school five years and working kind of an easy job?

Take the next statement to heart:

Law school is about four letters - I-R-A-C. Issue, rule, application, and conclusion. You spot the issue, you recite the relevant rule or rules, you apply those rules to the facts, and arrive at your conclusion. Your grades will depend - to the tune of 95% - on your ability to adhere to and succesfully manipulate this formula for your exam answers. So, from day one, do the following: Fuck all the inter-personal bullshit, don't try to score points with the professors or engage in any of the petty, middle school level assholery. Learn the rules, practice applying them to facts, and repeat.

That description makes it sound kind of like Rutgers undergrad - it's a good school with a lousy atmosphere because everyone there wanted to go somewhere better.

Man, if I had a nickle for EVERY time I thought to myself "Assholes. I CHOSE to go to Rutgers. Stop pissing in my coffee"....Those over-entitled jerks didn't realize the huge value or just objective quality that Rutgers offers as a university.

i chose it too, btw

add BLAM's advice to mine -- when you learn and practice taking law school exams, apply IRAC. there are definitely books out there (and probably webpages) if you are puzzled about it.

I have some experience with appellate opinions in my work so I essentially know what you're talking about.

I have some experience with appellate opinions in my work so I essentially know what you're talking about.

This is going to sound SO condescending and shitty, but here goes -

Forget everything about the PRACTICE of law prior to your first year in law school. You can remember and reconnect therewith once you score a great summer associate job. All you need to do is learn the IRAC method, drill it into your brane, and make it so EVERY SINGLE ANSWER YOU GIVE TO ANYTHING is in the form of the IRAC.

I am not kidding.

The actual PRACTICE of law is SO much cooler - you actually get to use some imagination, you get to collaborate with others, you get to learn from others who aren't trying to hide things from you all the time, you get a paycheck instead of an interest-incurring loan check once a semester.

LAW SCHOOL is really about learning 1) the rules and where they come from and 2) how to apply them to facts. There is no magic formula and prior experience, while helpful as a source of perspective on things, won't help you when you get your first multiple hearsay question on your Evidence exam.

They really are two entirely different worlds - and thank god.

The extra years you have will help - you will automatically be more mature, able to separate school and life-otherwise, and will most likely be more adept at relating to the professors and others at the school, which will help.

But it will not help you in exams, and thus will not help you with your grades.

Treat it as a 10 hour a day job for three years, and you'll do well.

o yeah I know, the only sense in which I meant my experience might help me is that I already know what issue, rule, application and conclusion are and have read a whole bunch of appellate decisions where those concepts are (obviously) used. Like I have a basic idea of how these opinions proceed from I to R to A to C.

Word. Didn't mean to break pedantic on you.

I just got wait-listed at Penn -- does anyone have a good handle on how the wait=listing thing works and whether I can really help my chances by submitting additional materials?

dunno about law school, but my experience with wait listing involves waiting, sadly. i'm assuming they gave you a date when you will find out again and you basically just have to wait until then, and i guess they judge upon space issues and merit, but i don't they would accept stuff you sent them and/or consider them

they said in the e-mail that I could submit additional materials such as updated transcripts/resumes (which doesn't really apply to me) or an additional essay.

They also didn't give me a date >:(

then i would probably submit something and hope it worked but you never really know

yikes re: date, that's kind of harsh

i guess that means that they are waiting too see how many people actually enroll? but that wouldn't be fair to the waitlisted people really

Penn. is fantastic! Good luck with the wait-listing process.

uhg, my last transcript -finally- processed today--my schools have been waiting for weeks after requesting my report to get it.

I only had the money to apply to 4 schools, so ... I'm not sure what chances I have at this point.

Yeah, the processing took weeks for me too.

hmmm... having been laid off, if I don't get into a shcool this year, what then?

Is 26 too old to start law school?

fuk no I'll be almost 29

You could still probably get another application in to a surefire safety school if you're really worried, work your ass off, and transfer. Do it at CUNY or some other cheap public school if you don't want the financial burden.

Anyway I wouldn't give up on getting in yet. I think I heard from Cardozo like one day after going into deep despair that no one was going to accept me.

Cool. I applied to Cardozo, but my other recommender (who promised to send the thing forever ago), said he'd fax it last week, but has yet to do so. It's like one crazy thing after another.

Are you going to go to Cardozo?

Good chance of it. I'll wait to hear from Fordham at least or maybe see if I get a full ride at any lesser schools.

Goo luck. It'd be awesome to get into Fordham (even if it's the "lesser" school to most of the people who go there); I'd be happy with a Cardozo at this point ... they did give me a fee waiver. I just need that one other recommendation.

congrats on getting wait-listed @ penn -- hopefully you'll get in (if that's where you really want to go & any of yer other top schools don't let you in).

i also started l-school @ age 29. that age is SO not "too old" (our class valedictorian was a 40-something).

Good luck to you both. Just remember that being a lawyer isn't as glamorous as it may appear.

don't worry, it doesn't appear even slightly glamorous to me

Yeah, same here. I'm hoping it's a (slightly) more fulfilling trade than permalance writing, especially since the mix of postgrad life + freelance + ultra competitive, anti-creative NYC has made a stable, normal life pretty hard

My point -- obvious as it is -- is that you should go to law school only if you really want to be a lawyer. Too many people go because they don't know what else to do or because others around them are going. And too many of those people end up as competent-to-exceptionally skilled attorneys, but stuck in a long career drift and often terribly unhappy.

I like being an attorney, and I've seen several sides of it, as an associate in a 500-lawyer old-world firm and as a partner in a small firm. But I know many lawyers who aren't happy or just seem lost. And your life, and your happiness, are too valuable to trifle with.

But as I say, I like being a lawyer, and aspects of the job can be very satisfying and creative. So, again, best of luck in law school and beyond.

And too many of those people end up as competent-to-exceptionally skilled attorneys, but stuck in a long career drift and often terribly unhappy.

I have a bad feeling I'm going to end up in this category, but I think I'd probably wind up like that whatever I do and I don't have any better ideas.

And of course I am hoping that I turn out to be wrong about that.

Then consider using the degree as a springboard into another career. Some of my law school friends went off to write showtunes. Law degrees help you in lots of fields. Bottom line: Be happy and satisfied. Life's too short.

Is 26 too old to start law school?

no

(xpost) Yeah that's actually a strong possibility for me and one of the ideas that first got me to consider law school - I thought I might use it as a springboard into an arts-related career that actually had some legs and wasn't something flimsy like P.R.

Oh yeah, I got WL at GW (I'm writing them a letter of continued interest), and in at American with scholarship money. Still waiting from Cardozo and Fordham, etc. :S

A friend of mine graduated from American magna cum laude, and he thought it was a great law school. Are you going to go to Cardozo or Fordham over American, if you get into either/both of them?

Fordham and GW probably, Cardozo it'd be a split ... my life is in NYC, but American might draw me to DC.

go to Fordham

actually don't go anywhere

If I'm lucky enough to get in, definitely. My numbers are like ... 25% there.

"I really don't want to work straight out of college, but I don't feel like going to grad school for econ either"

This guy was kind of a douche.

Have you visited the American law school's "campus"? Dude you might as well go to some school in the suburbs. But there is a v. good butcher next door. And a Crate and Barrel across the street. With a Starbucks. And a Chicken Out. And umm I think you can get there on a bus, but certainly not metro.

actually don't go anywhere

Cynic.

Really, the suburbs? I thought it'd be like ... Washington D.C. I guess I could bring my motorcycle down.

I hear they have a good international law program, if that holds any truth.

1) I grew up near there. Yeah it's the suburbs compared to NYC but so is the rest of DC. Anyway there's public transportation.

2) The campus shouldn't be that much of a factor anyway. It's not college.

Yeah, it's not like you're going to be sitting out on the quad watching some guy juggling on a unicycle

At this point I've got scholarship at Cardozo and Rutgers-Newark, WL at Penn, "on hold" at Fordham, and in at Temple, Rutgers Camden and Brooklyn with no scholarship.

Even if I get into Fordham I'll probably go to Cardozo because of the money, but if I got into Penn I'd gleefully go into massive debt. Cost of living in Philly is a lot lower too so that'd make up some of the difference.

I should have done this! Goddamn, I could have been rich as fuck in half the time it takes to do a PhD. wtf.

Don't tell me about loans, either. I know you dicks can pay off 150k in like 5 years.

Nah, the "rich as fuck" thing is exaggerated.

rong

xpost

the NY schools are probably at least marginally better than the DC schools, but go to DC if you want to work there and/or do public international law.

American is in an inner-ring burb, ie the outskirts of DC. yes, you can get downtown, and no you're not gonna be living it up all the time, but it's not the city, even by DC standards.

if you go to any of the schools listed above and are not one of the top 10 graduating persons than you really won't have a good chance of paying those loans off any time soon

My friend got into Fordham off the "waitlist", so goo luck. I submitted my application on 1/11/07 and haven't heard shit from them yet. Same with Cardozo.

Fordham's $$$ is nuts; my friend who goes there is looking forward to 2,000/month in loan paybacks after graduation.

Is American as bad a school as people say? Everyone's always so down on it.

I have law school grad friends who aren't making much better money than I make now. But my job is a dead end and law is at least a career.

read that wall street journal article from last fall, people

hurting on the right track, dan is misinformed :/

That Wall Street Journal article was written about some whiny slacker. If I can make it as a writer in NYC, I can probably do OK in other pointless, senselessly-competitive fields.

if you go to any of the schools listed above and are not one of the top 10 graduating persons than you really won't have a good chance of paying those loans off any time soon

that's not true of Fordham, is it?

Whatever you say Cutty McMoneybags, Esq.

Just fucking with you, obv., sorry.

If I had a PhD subject I really wanted to do and didn't have to pay for it I'd just as soon do that.

Do you like living on 12k a year until you're like 30 y/n?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119040786780835602.html

Yes, we've all read the WSJ article. People dug around and found out it was done by a whiny bitter loser who belongs to this community of other whiny, bitter losers.

I think American is a very good school.

burt stanton, those are some great arguments you got going, can't wait til you get up in front of judge with that sorta malarkey.

Regardless of who wrote that article, it's well known that supply of law school grads is going up way faster than demand for lawyers.

wow burt you have it all figured out and you haven't even read pennoyer v. neff yet

They're amazing arguments, aren't they. No, I have 0 respect for people who go into a brutally competitive field and then get surprised that it has a nasty food chain.

It's even worse with lib. arts Ph.D.s... I withdrew my English Ph.D. applications after realizing that, if my 4.0 Vassar friends were struggling to get into decent schools, that little ole state college me probably wouldn't fare too well.

Lol "malarkey"

shillelagh hugger

ILX lawyer roll call:

me
gabbneb
felicity
Hunt3r
Daniel, Esq?

Don't tell me about loans, either. I know you dicks can pay off 150k in like 5 years.

Depends. And I don't mean that as a flip answer, Dan. OTOH, this . . .

if you go to any of the schools listed above and are not one of the top 10 graduating persons than you really won't have a good chance of paying those loans off any time soon

. . . isn't necessarily true, either.

Ah, I didn't know those others were attorneys! What kind of law do you all practice?

ACTUALLY -

As a graduate of Catholic University Law, one of the schools in DC that doesn't contain the name George, I can tell you that American (and Catholic, Howard, and Maryland) grads can very easily get good jobs in DC.

And the job market in DC, according to an article in the Post late last year, was very, very good.

Next Point:
Comparing academic graduate programs and professional graduate programs is like apples and oranges, and the money is just one reason.

This is the most important point:

If you want to be an attorney, go to law school. Do well. Meet people. Try to have a part-time job and a summer job, even if you don't get a cherry summer associateship. Accept the fact that, at least for the first few years, you will be living on a budget. Get a job. Start doing good work, and you'll start building a career.

If prestige, or influence, money or power is the driving motivation behind you going to law school, DON'T. Go to business school. Hire youreself out as a third world dictator. Start selling drugs - I hear the Stansfield corners in West Baltimore are WIDE open.

BLAM, Esq.

Law school definitely seems like the wrong path to go if you want to make a ton of money these days; even Big Law people seem disappointed at the measily 160k they make, when kids out of college are plowing through 300k/year in banking, etc.

As I said upthread, not necessarily.

To be fair, Burt, if you're talking about first-year salaries, or salaries for young lawyers, I think you're in the ballpark (the N.Y. Big Firm rate was about 150k for first-years a few years ago; I haven't checked on it in some time).

BLAM otm. the wsj article isn't just whining, but it is overstated, maybe by a lot.

What kind of law do you all practice?

gabbneb practices Atlantic Waterfowl law, felicity is one of the Top 100 Lawn Sportshound lawyers in America, and cutty specializes in the Law of the Seahorse.

Ah, I didn't know those others were attorneys! What kind of law do you all practice?

General litigation, mostly small business. Never want to do criminal, although that area of law is fascinating to me.

Ah, all you niche lawyers.

Ah, all you rich niche lawyers

Fixed.

i work for NYC

A friend of mine from NYU law is about to go work for NYC. He already did summer work for the city.

Sounds like a good job. I worked for a NYC-based firm for a couple of years (in its South Florida office). Good experience. Good lawyers.

hurting, find out what division and let me know, i'll greet him

yeah I'll ask him. good guy.

Fyi if you are admitted in CA you can waive into NY through DC without taking the bar.

I do IP LOLaw.

I've done some IP litigation, too (tho, admittedly, only a few cases). Esoteric, heady stuff. I liked it.

i wanted to do IP but couldn't break in to that field without a technical degree. the city work is good cause it's 9-5, stress-free, and i definitely do not take my work home with me

B.L.A.M., did you just take the CA bar? Maybe I am thinking someone else.

I'm sure a technical degree helps to do IP work, but the IP litigation I've done is all just straightforward -- albeit difficult and nuanced -- litigation. Tho, to be fair, most of my friends who went into IP had engineering backgrounds.

(xp to Cutty)

Yes I am a LOLitigator with a bachelor's in studio art.

LOL @ LOLitigator. I'll have to use that (giving you due credit/royalties).

believe me i tried to IP LOLigate

1P 3tigation

B.L.A.M., did you just take the CA bar? Maybe I am thinking someone else.

I did, I did. Results in a little over two months. I really have no idea what I'll do if I don't pass. I busted my ass for three months, working full time for two of those, and don't feel like I could have done more. Plus, I like my job and would like to get paid at an associate level as opposed to a "law clerk" level. Which sucks.

My big fear with going to a school like American (or Cardozo, etc.) is ... is it really worth it to take on so much debt? I got no money at AU-WCL, despite my numbers being like ... 90% there, and Fordham'll probably give me the ole WL since I'm 25% there.

So it's like ... 180k of debt for a slight chance of a new career? Or are the naysayers overdoing the doom mongering?

i don't enjoy paying $1200/month in loans

American is in an inner-ring burb, ie the outskirts of DC. yes, you can get downtown, and no you're not gonna be living it up all the time, but it's not the city, even by DC standards.

-- gabbneb, Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:13 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

No, it's inside city lines, although I guess "outskirts" is probably still accurate

it's like five blocks from the MD/DC line

yup. A lot of DC looks like that area though, and even some of the poorer parts just look like poorer versions of it.

yes, I know it's in the city lines. so is an urban core that it bears no resemblance to. the parts of DC that look like it are also not urban in the NYC sense. there is very little other than residential or institutional use in the 'neighborhood'. my recollection is that if you're not using a bus, it's an awkward hike to the metro.

I thought there was a stop on the red line right by AU

there's a stop called Tenleytown-AU, but it's not "right by" AU

I guess maybe it's not that close to the campus though - I never actually had reason to go to the campus from the metro or vice versa

it would be like a fifteen/twenty minute walk to the metro from the AU law library

actually I never had any reason to go to the campus period. My middle school was near the tenleytown stop though. My house was near...nothing.

They say the recession might not end til late 2009 or 2010... holing up in law school might seem like a good idea, but maybe it'll be better just to be a slacker? Law school debt seems like it's ... life crippling, especially if it's not at one of those big time schools.

I read something recently about how the demographic bubble is finally going to subside in college admissions in a few years and schools are going to start getting less competitive again. I guess several more years after that it might start to subside in law school admissions too, and then after that maybe it will start to subside in the profession too. But I'm guessing that'll probably take too long to really have any impact on my career.

hi, the debt does feel life crippling

you need a life/sanity crippling job to pay off the life crippling debt

Seriously ... 1200/month dude. My debt right now: 0. If I wanted to live in a $200 shit box in super-chic and hip Berlin for 2 years, I could. Then, get another crappy writing gig. Of course, it won't ever, ever lead to a stable life or any kind-of future, but man. I am interested in doing law, but the money it costs and your career prospects afterwards seem completely disconnected.

I have a lot of family and family friends who are successful lawyers ... state department, Cisco Systems, Big Law, etc. Maybe that would help the job prospect thing.

Hats off to you IP people. After grad school (biomedical) I went to work for the IP department of a big pharma co., thinking "hey I knows science and I likes to read and write hey how 'bout I just be patent lawyer and yeah pharma will pay for me to get J.D. at night yay skippy."

I lasted about two months. If I ever, ever, ever have to look at another patent filing again it will be far too fucking soon. Funny, I thought that being a good scientific writer would help me when it came to preparing patent stuff--could not have been MORE wrong.

Also: big pharma IP lawyers as douchebags SHOCKAH

Tough call. You can get a good education anywhere. IMO, going to law school solely for the money is a poor risk. I think you should go out of a desire to do something you can only do with a law degree.

There's a great little book by Michael Melcher called The Creative Lawyer about finding satisfaction in the law. Life-changing.

ILX lawyer roll call:

me
gabbneb
felicity
Hunt3r
Daniel, Esq?

-- cutty, Wednesday, March 12, 2008 3:30 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

Also:

Eisbaer
Jenny (who previously posted on this thread as Party Time Country Female)

thanks.xls

I <3 jaymc for real.

Yes, you do.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/477683955_1d51e07cd3_m.jpg

you two are so cuet

LOLphones

I will definitely check out that book - thanks for the rec.

BTW how good are the prospects for someone interested in the non-scientific/patent side of IP (copyright-related stuff, etc.)?

that's what i was interested in. you and everbody else.

the IP-only firms want tech degrees so EVERYONE can handle patent work if it comes up, even if you are only aiming to to soft-IP (C and TM)

so your only way in is usually getting a summer associate position at a big law firm because the boutique IP firms usually do not hire graduates.

soft-IP (C and TM)

I'm more interested in soft-p and c on the t

but yeah, I'm kind of going in prepared to take a second or third choice field.

the IP-only firms want tech degrees so EVERYONE can handle patent work if it comes up, even if you are only aiming to to soft-IP (C and TM)

You mean on the deal side, right? Or do you mean that on the litigation-side IP firms won't hire you unless you have a technical degree?

Melcher's blog isn't half bad, either.

I'm sure others can speak better to this, but my understanding is the non-technical IP work at BIglaw firms is relatively limited - you'll find a couple of trademark lawyers here and there, with larger concentrations at a few places, so the jobs aren't going to come to you the way other biglaw positions might. Is it something you think might be interesting, or is it the thing you really want to do?

felicity's post above is OTM.

It's a thing that I initially got interested in because of my interest in music and the music industry - probably sim to cutty. But I'm not dead set on it at all.

Dare to dream cutty and Hurting. I don't recommend going to Big LOLaw for music work. I'd learn the business, get any kind of law job for a couple years, then find your spot.

(Mind you, the labels are all going to hell in a handbasket anyway. The survivors will be the lawyers who understand advanced media.)

what music industry

also what's my dream, i work for NYC, in no way related to IP

I dunno. What is it?

you said dare to dream as if i entertained the idea of working in music law. that was never the case because i was in the music industry as an artist and wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

if i were to say there is a dream it probably would be employed as a GC for a tech/new media company...

the video game industry for instance

"interactive media"

Then do it for 20 minutes a day -- as it says in Melcher's book.

if i were to say there is a dream it probably would be employed as a GC for a tech/new media company...

Now that would a cool legal job. Good work if you can get it.

i havent read the book so maybe im missing something, but doing the work for 20 minutes a day doesn't do anything for my resume really

I think the theory is that you supposed to spend the 20 minutes either thinking about what you'd rather be doing or taking steps from A to B.

ah, i get it. i will read the book though, i swear.

i am also considering sticking with NYC, climbing various ladders and somehow ending up working for bicycle initiatives within the DOT