Taking sides: Children vs. (non-human) animals

vs

http://www.ericburdonalbums.com/zzz%20the%20animals%201964%20colour.jpg

OTM. The second half of that post however...well, I'll just say this: animals can't make you grilled cheese sandwiches.

This is sick.

perhaps he's a farmer, and the extra farmhand would be useful.

"here chick chick chick, here chick chick chick"

sandwich-based debate is so rare nowadays in the public discourse.

WHY would anyone choose to have a child instead of a dog

i have spent altogether too much time in the company of under-sevens this weekend and neither twitter nor facebook feel like ~safe spaces to vent about how much i dislike them

neither is ILX, really

grumpy old man lex is gonna be fun

hates: kids, jokes, cooking

barrel of fun, that guy

i love dogs

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

they do tend to lack self-awareness.

So do dogs.

hating children is so bizarre to me

fuck dogs

I mean sure sometime I meet a cool dog and generally I like basset hounds but mostly blech keep these slobbering shitting pissing barking child-biting simpletons away from me

I feel the opposite of lex, dogs seem like such a pain compared to children, and they're guaranteed to die within like what 15 years? plus dogs shit all over the sidewalks and smell terrible. now partly it's that there are so many terrible dog owners but let's not let the filthy beasts themselves off the hook.

i don't think bad smells and too much shit is really an argument you can make against dogs vis-à-vis children

... and slobbering, pissing, puking etc. Don't like either much tbh. Used to like dogs. Children are probably better.

dog owners mostly do not expect everyone else to be equally enamoured of their pet, nor do they move through the world as if non-dog owners literally do not exist

lol that is not my experience of dog owners

children stop randomly shitting + pissing (and shedding and slobbering) everywhere around the age of 4 or so. Dogs do it their whole lives.

dogs shit in terrible places their whole miserable lives, for kids it's just for a couple of years, and even there, you don't have to pick the steamy pile off the ground wearing a plastic glove on your hand, feeling its runny warm wretchedness.

also right now my kids are making dinner for me, afterward they'll wash up. I suppose a dog will at least eat wasted scraps off the ground.

you don't have to pick the steamy pile off the ground wearing a plastic glove on your hand, feeling its runny warm wretchedness.

posts w striking imagery

Generally ok with either, in small doses and one at a time - there are a lot of animals I like more than dogs tho

WHY would anyone choose to have a child instead of a dog

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 10:59 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Less horrifying for the doctors mostly

jfc all of you

dog owners mostly do not expect everyone else to be equally enamoured of their pet, nor do they move through the world as if non-dog owners literally do not exist

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:39 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol that is not my experience of dog owners

― Οὖτις, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

loooooool outic otm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTZ5VpfzoW0

children stop randomly shitting + pissing (and shedding and slobbering) everywhere around the age of 4 or so. Dogs do it their whole lives.

They do not. You housebreak a dog, it's housebroken p. much forever unless a) very sick or b) very scared.

Anyway I echo imago's "jfc all of you." Kids are great, dogs are great, life is a fucking miracle in its diversity.

parents are e a s i l y the rudest people i encounter in public

it's not even close. cyclists, runners, dog walkers, couples, no one can touch parents for lack of pavement etiquette and refusal to acknowledge that there are other people in public spaces

every dog owner i've ever known is hyper-aware that others might not like dogs and very good at controlling them but the extent to which parents let their kids scream and run around and yell and generally bother other people is unbelievable

lex i think your perspective here is one of a dumb ageist

Do dogs find a good old folks home for you, or better yet put you up in their houses?

wait the only sort of "ageism" that actually matters is discrimination among adults, not someone disliking being around toddlers

http://www.rantchic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/kids-on-leashes-4.jpg

i have the impulse that kids are annoying etc but i try to fight it away, it makes me feel like a misanthrope. similarly some parents do appear lax or like they are happy for their child to be everyone else's problem, in public, but again i assume they know more about being a parent than me.

sometimes i look at the behaviour of children, their neediness, their self-centred greed, and it's like they are concentrated embodiments of all the worst traits of humanity. then on the other hand sometimes they seem like concentrated embodiments of our best traits, their curiosity, their imaginations, their ability to show love without a second thought.

last xmas my three nephews started trolling me about being bald, which was mostly hilarious and sort of sweet but did kind of remind me of like quintessential playground bullying, apart from the fact that i am 33 and i can deal with their high-pitched little barbs, plus it only lasted about 45 minutes or so, consisting of a chant of "you have no hair".

my sister intervened to explain that this kind of thing might upset a person, at which point my youngest nephew said "but i like to call you the bald man".

the next day my oldest nephew, who is like 10 years old, came and sat on my knee while i was watching telly, and in a fully earnest tone after staring at my one-grade all over for a moment said "you actually have some hair. it's not true that you have no hair. and you have a beard too."

plenty of adults embody humanity's best traits and also you can have a conversation with them/they don't scream seemingly non-stop/they don't launch themselves at you physically

If it weren't for children, there wouldn't be any grownups. So, no art, music, science, porn, vodka, pizza, internet, or bicycles. No you.

So this is kind of like saying "humans: classic or dud." Which is certainly a debatable question! But if you think there's something worthwhile about the species continuing, then somebody has to have some kids. Doesn't have to be you, of course. De gustibus and all that.

plenty of adults embody humanity's best traits and also you can have a conversation with them/they don't scream seemingly non-stop/they don't launch themselves at you physically

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 1:24 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a sad post

i prefer dogs to children. i prefer dogs to adults tbh.

i was at a friend's house on saturday night and there were lots of dogs. one of them, an 11 year old pitbull called Findlay who've only met two or three times, came over for a pet from me and leaned against me for a hug. A little chihuahua sat on my lap for about half an hour. my idea of a good time

If it weren't for children, there wouldn't be any grownups.

Feeble imo.

lex seems p miserable - no laffs, no kids, only horrible club music to listen to, reliant on others for food

jim that sounds like a wonderful party :))))

I dont understand why people feel the need to disparage children. To me this feels like a kind of prejudice. Kids are mistreated all around the world and they are not equipped to advocate for themselves. What kind of monster would think it's important to express their "dislike" of a group like that?

This has nothing to do with whether people should want to have children. It would probably be better for the world to adopt some version of an antinatalist position tbh. All I'm saying is that children are people.

lex seems p miserable - no laffs, no kids, only horrible club music to listen to, reliant on others for food

you sound like my republican uncle

Sounds like the voiceover to an advert for some (weird) charity.

This has nothing to do with whether people should want to have children.

otm.

but actively hating kids is def misanthropic

ty treesh

antidog ppl itt maybe even worse tho

sometimes i look at the behaviour of children, their neediness, their self-centred greed, and it's like they are concentrated embodiments of all the worst traits of humanity. then on the other hand sometimes they seem like concentrated embodiments of our best traits, their curiosity, their imaginations, their ability to show love without a second thought.

this is very OTM

their ability to show love without a second thought.

Positively doglike.

is taking sides like which group do you prefer, or taking sides like who would win in a fight? either way i guess my answer is "most animals"

Evil guide dog excepted.

Now that Treeship has said all that needed to be said, this thread can get down to nattering.

Kids are mistreated all around the world and they are not equipped to advocate for themselves. What kind of monster would think it's important to express their "dislike" of a group like that?

otm, kids are the most vulnerable people in the world, they are utterly dependent on adults to take care of them and people exploit their vulnerability on a daily basis. "oh but they are loud and they irritate me" v cool opinion lex!

but i do like children a lot, no hatred there. babies are weird little amazing aliens. watching toddlers learn how to communicate and connect things together is living edutainment. 4-7 year olds can be the most fun people to engage with, when they're completely freaking out about who broke a toy or whatever. and even terrible adolescents are kind of amazing for the emotional split they go through, the realization that they're going to die and that their mom or dad is going to die, the first grappling with the idea that there might not be a god or that most people just worship the god or gods that they were assigned according to their place of birth, but also on the flip side their minds and experiences are rapidly expanding and they're kind of scoping out the boundaries of their lives, getting a taste of what their personal limits might be and how far they might able to go. it's all good.

on the other hand, you haven't LIVED if you haven't wrestled with a labrador retriever in the snow

obv that should be when they're NOTcompletely freaking out about who broke a toy or whatever

if someone out there really enjoys engaging with 4-7 year olds when they're freaking about who broke the toy, then that person is The Chosen One

tbh that wasn't very obvious

maybe lex is just angling for a DHS Administration of Children and Families post in the Trump admin

sometimes i look at the behaviour of children, their neediness, their self-centred greed, and it's like they are concentrated embodiments of all the worst traits of humanity. then on the other hand sometimes they seem like concentrated embodiments of our best traits, their curiosity, their imaginations, their ability to show love without a second thought.

wow, it's almost like they are ... people

the answer is : your own kids > your own pets > other people's pets > other people's kids

dogs are much easier, kids are more rewarding

it's like take sides - eating ice cream or training for a marathon. i find eating ice cream much more enjoyable than training for a marathon but i am not proud of the ice cream after it has been eaten u kno

may I suggest a different brand of ice cream, or perhaps making your own

wow, it's almost like they are ... people

or like all people are children, i guess.

for goodness sake it is not "monstrous" to be uninterested in or annoyed by children, or simply to prefer not to have them around ever

and i see way more everyday misanthropy directed at perfectly harmless subsets of adults. it's fine to be annoyed and vent! it doesn't make anyone a weirdo. though this kind of rabid proscribed positivity around children does feel quite alienating. i don't tell people who dislike dogs that they're monsters.

tbf lex is basically a giant baby

xp

come now, folks, we must remember that lex is the real victim here

Nobody is the victim

nah I'm cool

hating children is the ultimate stereotypical misanthropy in an adult. prob could name 50 books or movies with it as a theme in about two minutes.

101 Dalmatians has both!

yeah like dr alan grant but he learns to get on with children after his experience with animals that have escaped captivity and then at the end he is in a helicopter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnTsVTNrvC0

- Computer.m4v

I don't get hating kids, for reasons eloquently put by Treesh and LG. Hate the parents, not the kids imho, if you must.

Dogs on the other hand...

Children are people and thus fine, being born is a disaster and I refuse to have any role in making a person be born, I don't like dogs, I like cats, animals are ridiculous and fascinating in their diversity and there's only one kind of human.

getting some serious xtian vibes from this thread

https://guideimg.alibaba.com/images/shop/2016/07/23/4/nursery-qutoes-my-children-are-my-greatest-blessings-family-love-quote-baby-nursery-decor-home-decor-kids-room-bedroom-h_21865604.jpeg

there are lots of very fucked up things about 'childhood' and the way a lot of people treat & control children, & I can understand feeling anger at that, esp the ego on some parents & the whole authoritarian worldview that kids become tokens of for some people. kids bring out really dark power impulses in a lot of people

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/11/28/23/2EE3BFFD00000578-0-image-a-9_1448753915582.jpg

there's so many things wrong with lex i doubt his anti-kids stance would even crack the top 20 if anything it just confirms for me how excellent kids are

wow, it's almost like they are ... people

― na

ding ding ding

preemptive clusterfuck summary: fuckin' ilx

it doesn't make anyone a weirdo.

it is fundamentally weird to me.... " i really don't like the youngest members of my species"

If I had to choose between spending one hour in a room with 50 toddlers or 50 adult Trump voters I'd take the toddlers in a New York minute.

cool

lol

it is fundamentally weird to me.... " i really don't like the youngest members of my species"

agreed - it's just a bizarre affectation from ppl with very low emotional maturity - otm above whoever said that hating children is the classical descriptor of fictional villains. it's bc it's so absurd.

bonus points if they tilt their chin up and sniff while saying haughtily, "well i was /never/ a child."

What about people who don't actively hate kids but would rather not have anything to do with them

Asking for a friend

that's fine imo. i love spending time w/ my two little kids more than pretty much anything but tbh i dont always feel comfortable or confident talking to other people's kids.

Agatha Trunchbull: I have never been able to understand why small children are so disgusting. They're the bane of my life. They're like insects: they should be got rid of as early as possible.

[makes spraying gesture]

Agatha Trunchbull: Psst! My idea of a perfect school is one in which there are no children... at all. Wouldn't you agree, Miss Honey?

I was thinking more Mr. Foreclosure from the War Between the Pitiful Teachers and the Splendid Kids but sure that works

here's the trunchbull quote i was trying to find: "They're all mistakes, children! Filthy, nasty things. Glad I never was one."

of course hating children has its own TV Tropes page

what's the alt-right line on children

apart from 'recruits'

Kids are noisy and disruptive and demanding and a lot of work! I don't have any but I work in a school with about 730 of them and I find it exhausting to perform the emotional dance of keeping their attention and interacting w them for a few hours much less the next 25-30 years. Maybe it's less tiring when you know them well and you don't have to perform but for me it's all emoting and trying to read them 24/7. Not to mention the noise level. I need ppl around me who I can tell to go away and amuse themselves for up to a week at a time, so obv kids r not for me. Okay. I mean I don't hate 'em but jesus I don't have what it takes. It's okay.

at what point are children capable of making sandwiches?

I resent children for being in the midst of childhood, and dogs for their flexibility.

at what point are children capable of making sandwiches?

my daughter's progressed to this point and she's 8

but she's been flipping over records on the turntable for me since 4, so there's that

it is true that I don't care much for other kids besides mine, I would never work in an elementary or middle school or in daycare. kids are hilarious though so if you hate hilarity then yeah boo to kids.

Dogs can be hilarious too but usually only when they're risking their lives and I'm not supposed to enjoy that I gather

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8d/ab/bf/8dabbf2673e40bc1c5d6b664fe308d76.png

vs

http://popcurious.com/wp-content/uploads/LIARassh.jpg

I have a 10 year old black labrador and a teenager with autism and they are both hard work. The dog constantly wants to go for a walk and will follow me about the house to force the issue - even if he has just had a walk. The teenage boy is going through his violent and angry young man period, would love to be able to turn it back to his loud and annoying child phase - because that was a piece of piss by comparison:P

Children can be annoying as fuck, but I do think people who learn to chill and be more patient and tolerant will be happier in the long run.

i dont hate children but i don't really want to spend time with kids too much, like it's fine, even pleasant, to go visit a friend and their little toddler. but i wouldn't want to be a teacher at a school (especially high school).

i was talking w/a friend who has twins, both in kindergarten at our kid's school. one of them has ADHD and she tries so hard, she's a single mother, and she deals w/people all the time. she said someone said to her, point-blank recently about her son when he was having some issues, "what's WRONG with that kid?" idk, maybe some people just shouldn't talk about children or ever think about them except to not hit them in the crosswalk.

I'm with you, Lex, after my previously angelic toddler drew blood from my face today after a meltdown about going in the car
He shares your musical taste tho

(I don't like other kids much but my own is endlessly fascinating and amazing)

i'm a high school teacher and i love it! kids that age are inspiring and great fun to be around! but i would never have my own kids. too much work. i can barely keep up with the responsibility of my dog tbh.

i do think that there's something to be said for the fact that the younger the kids are, the more tolerable. li'l cherubs running around making mischief, eating cookies, making sloppy art, telling you facts they just learned w/wide eyes, make-believing my little pony games, vs dead-eyed teens running around stealing cars, taking oxy, writing terrible journals, reciting conspiracy theories back at you, make-believing my little pony games.

but, i dunno, ymmv but growing up in real scotland I'm too easily reminded of how psychotic and fucked so many of the boys i grew up with were, and the weird nihilistic stuff that would go on. e.g. a kid i knew threw a brick at a passing train from a bridge when he was like 11 or something, at high school people would take snowballs made from old frozen-over patches of snow that are more like rocks and threw them in a large arc down a flight of stairs that were about the height of a 3 story building with no intended target as long as it hit someone. there was a thing called the grog pit (a common thing in west central scotland as conversations with friends have confirmed) where an unliked member of the cohort would be thrown in and everyone would spit on them, etc. the effeminate boys who would later come out as gay were made fun of day in day out from the age of 8 or 9 and occasionally physically attacked. a lot of the boys doing this sort of stuff are now "normal" adults.

Yeah my junior high years were something like that. The girls would cut you socially and it devastated me, but the boys would tape whoever was the scapegoat that week to a tree and shoot fireworks at them, spit on each other, threaten to shoot your pets, shoot each other with bb guns.... Good times.

I'll never forget that one of my classmates insisted that he shot songbirds with his gun, then took the raw bird meat and hid it under the toppings of his babysitter's pizza and she ate it. Almost definitely fake but

Let's just cancel the years between 10 and 20 is what I'm saying. Possibly 30.

10-22 years, ranked:

21
20
19
22
10
11
12
18
16
17
15
13
14

I grew up with this mischievous little imp who is currently doing life in Dublin and is referred to as Ireland's most prolific serial killer. To me he was Nashy, who would always try and manipulate other kids to do the mischief for him. Never could predict how fucked up he ended up, and he is still linked to a couple of unsolved murders in my area.

two brothers who were about 10 or 11 at the time, from the neighborhood next to mine, doused a classmate in gasoline and set him on fire.

yes but like tbh anything over 10 isnt a kid its a shit adult

Nashy

There was always strong rumours that at the age of 8 this guy pushed a friend into the path of a car, into a collision that killed him. The driver was over the limit which became the main story.

Yeah some kids are definitely bad news. No argument from me

we need to talk about nashy

nashyvan

When he first arrived at my junior school I was always very friendly to him, at a point where he was getting bullied, so he will probably kill me first if he ever gets out.

He doesn't seem to target people who were actually shit towards him back then. So if he does ever get out I will have a lump hammer at the ready.

did this thread really devolve into "cartoon villains dislike children ergo disliking children makes you a cartoon villain"

i mean yes i am aware that we live in an aggressively pro-natal, pro-nuclear family society, this is exactly why i needed to vent for a few minutes

oh and another thing is that 99% of the time having children turns formerly interesting and fun adults into complete bores (the 1% mostly comprises naturally gifted raconteurs who can make any anecdote entertaining). this thread seems evidence of that. it's literally impossible to converse with a parent if their child is also there.

Also true that 99% of the time having kids makes you realise how irresponsible and thoughtless and blithely unable to comprehend life changes some people without lids can be

Kids, dammit

http://www.cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/slang/saucepan_lid_1

Taking sides: People that talk reet vs (sub-human) languages

i think it was more like "disliking children is a classic sign of misanthropy" - i agree children's stories might be coercively normative but i still think, like any other form of misanthropy, it's better to try and step back from the impulse to dislike children, rather than double down on it. i also definitely agree that prejudice against children is actually quite important and bad - we have societies in which children's views are ignored more or they are more marginalised - generally in those societies bad things happened to children.

i mean yeah, i find children and couples can be insufferable, of course they can. but it strikes me as fairly normal that somebody would develop an attachment to their child, or treat it as special. the alternative would probably be some form of abuse.

children make too much noise, then they grow up and put music on in public places and cause yet more damage to the environment. Dogs don't clean up after themselves but then to see grown people chasing after them with a bag to pick up their excrement is embarrassing, the dog is an adult and has no excuse. children, dogs, children owners, dog owners, car drivers and people who put music on in public places, 2016 has been terrible but all of these have been entrenched for such a long time i wonder if serenity will be lost forever

and I really don't understand who's idea it was to put them on aeroplanes, an aeroplane is an anxiety inducing soul killing experience as it is but this is too much

parents:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzjiHvNXgAUpxgA.jpg

Jesus wept

I knew, KNEW, you'd share that.

Yep, we're all like that. Fortunately, I was neither interesting nor fun before parenthood, so no great loss.

idk what's meant by "doubling down" on disliking children. i don't tell parents in person that they or their children are boring/annoying, and i can even muster up a smile for children of people i know for...i think 10 mins is my limit. i just hate the experience of being around them and occasionally need to vent this.

there is only so much respite in this world from people who insist on talking at you when you would rather be in the dreamstate, that then they must bring a smaller version of themselves and talk at you about that and then make you hold this thing and talk to it like its 2 years old. Every minute is a minute closer to death that could be spent at peace instead of this torture

and then the looking at you where you are supposed to do the in rapture face. and then the having these thoughts instead of being in a reverie, and the thoughts are so mundane as is putting them on the internet for people to think you are a bad person when you just have waves and waves of anxiety about being trapped by it all

So you don't care for unions either, lex?

it's literally impossible to converse with a parent if their child is also there

literally impossible

literally

impossible

So you don't care for unions either, lex?

They pissed off Zac's dickhead of a parent, so they're doing a fine job imo.

idk what's meant by "doubling down" on disliking children

i meant more analysing an impulse to see if it's fair or valid. but dunno if everyone is capable of this.

not sure where fairness or validity come into a preference regarding one's environment or how one wants to spend time. the moral implications imputed on this thread are very weird. like, can you imagine anyone being called a bad person for not enjoying the company of dogs or cats??? or for saying they'd rather not spend their time in places or around people that make them feel uncomfortable?

So you don't care for unions either, lex?

― how's life, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:58 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

to be clear i am pro-unions and anti-selfish parents who even in that situation think the world revolves around their bloody toddler's bloody bedtime story

don't really see it as a moral thing, just can't adopt a worldview that involves me hating strangers, or justifying hatred. children are not a marginal interest like "dogs" or "cats", we were all children - we would not exist if people did not reproduce. the behaviour of children does bother me, i don't consider myself amazingly good with them, but i know that i was probably like that as a child, to one extent or another, or most children are, because they are young and are learning how to behave. equally i guess lack of self-awareness or rude behaviour is not exclusive to children. it might be just catholic of me to talk about resisting base impulses but that also feels like one of the things that separates adults from children, or dogs.

not sure where fairness or validity come into a preference regarding one's environment or how one wants to spend time. the moral implications imputed on this thread are very weird. like, can you imagine anyone being called a bad person for not enjoying the company of dogs or cats??? or for saying they'd rather not spend their time in places or around people that make them feel uncomfortable?

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:22 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

imo hating kids is fundamentally as weird as hating women or hating old people

to be clear i am pro-unions and anti-selfish parents who even in that situation think the world revolves around their bloody toddler's bloody bedtime story

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:23 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and you're aware that you cherry-picked some dumb asshole and that there are also millions of parents who support unions and worker's rights? christ

im just getting personally annoyed bc i have young son w/ autism and we've been in some intense fucking meltdown episodes in public and have had whole rooms stare at us thinking "what the fuck is wrong with that kid and that family" and i can only imagine someone like lex in that room

you guys are the ones bringing the word "hate" into it

thorough disinterest in children, and active discomfort and dislike of being around them, is not "hatred"

The post had nothing to do with unions.

... the one about poor little Zac, that is.

it could be that some ppl hate children bc they realize that w/out them they themselves would not be forced to suffer the indignities of a world that consistently fails to appreciate them as the glorious height of human evolution such that their childhood state shares as much similarity to their current godhead status as an egg does to a chicken.

alas who will shed a tear for interlocutors great and mighty, minds engaged in critical questions of our philosophical era, only to be disturbed by a baby w/ a load in its pants. only the whiffs of thine own farts provide succor in these unenlightened times amirite bro

i should step back im sorry lex. there are many moments when i very much prefer not to have kids around, even my own kids. like i said im not particularly comfortable around or confident hanging out w/ kids other than my own unless those kids are maybe playing w/ mine. im not someone w/ the capacity to work w/ little kids all the time and i could never be a teacher or children's social worker.

but ultimately local garda is very much otm, children are not really a marginal interest like a pet, they are young humans, even "thorough disinterest in and active discomfort and dislike of being around them" is ...... suspect .... could you imagine saying that about any other group of humans? women, old people, teenagers...

lol xp

I don't hate [x], I just dislike being around them because they make me uncomfortable

constructing strawmen so you can psychoanalyse them, always a worthwhile contribution

xps

no worries man i know you're not engaged in anything valuable w/ your time. after all you've already demonstrated quite clearly that you're not raising children.

could you imagine saying that about any other group of humans?

people, including all of you, say that every day about all sorts of groups of humans. tories, bankers and comic fans are among the groups of humans i generally don't enjoy spending time with, i'm sure you have your list.

after all you've already demonstrated quite clearly that you're not raising children.

― Mordy, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:49 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

too obvious a troll to rise to but i had forgotten the type of parent who are self-congratulatory as well as self-centred

too obvious a troll to rise to but let me rise to it anyway. you're too much of a joke to take seriously in this or any other thread and you have an extreme sense of self-centered haughtiness belied by practically everything i've ever seen you express so this whole thing is pretty much taking a piss bc who gives a fuck if the lex likes or doesn't like anything.

i'm sure the kids will survive whatever withering glares you debase yourself to cast in their direction

Lex, comics fans are a group distinguished by a voluntary interest. Children, like old people, people with disabilities, etc. are a group distinguished by factors outside their control. Like those two groups in particular they are often taken advantage of. Xp

lex pretend is being very reasonable and its ok that he is not raising children, there are already a lot of them and the physical environment they are going to live in in 50 years time is going to be challenging for many, that is the future we have made for them

who gives a fuck if the lex likes or doesn't like anything.

― Mordy, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:53 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk you're the one who keeps responding to an offhand grouse on the internet

#nodads forever, christ

dunno when saer became a curmudgeon.

This is not about having children or not. This is about whether it is cool to say you "don't like" some group of people, saer. I don't want to have children either fwiw xp

Children, like old people, people with disabilities, etc. are a group distinguished by factors outside their control. Like those two groups in particular they are often taken advantage of. Xp

― Treeship, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:56 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as are dogs

but if you don't like dogs that's fine, it has no moral implications about your character whatsoever

Dogs aren't people though.

it's been a while since the lex has been given the opportunity to revel in the spotlight like this, good work everyone

i get it now. you were born a dog and you begrudge those of us who were born human babies.

what do you think you'd think of the child you were?

xpost

no worries man i know you're not engaged in anything valuable w/ your time. after all you've already demonstrated quite clearly that you're not raising children.

leaving aside what an execrable sentiment this is, you're doing a good job of substantiating lex's gripes about parents

my dislike of lex has nothing to do w/ any progeny i have produced and in fact my enmity i believe predates my parenthood

Mordy otm throughout lex is a deeply unserious person fit for nothing but mockery

dunno when saer became a curmudgeon

I have had some unfortunate experiences of late, serenity came under severe multi-pronged attack and anxiety rose to new levels. I am hoping it will fade again soon!

I think its ok to say you don't like groups of people, where there are groups of people there is likely to be some kind of piercing noise or anxiety inducing activity

Its ok to want to make it through the day with mental equilibrium in tact!

What if I said I didn't like people with facial disfigurements. They make me uncomfortable.

hating kids is fundamentally as weird as hating women or hating old people

It's reductive, not "weird." I agree with a lot of lex's sentiments on this thread!

As a parent, your kids are either cute and friendly and great OR they're a pain in my ass and if they turn out to be anything other than disasters as adults it will be a miracle because you are an indulgent weirdo and I disagree with your style.

Disliking children is really an indirect dislike of parents. Parents are now and have always been the real enemy.

More trenchantly, what if you said you didn't like LGBT people because they make you uncomfortable? Or Jewish people? Or African-Americans? Those would all be rightly condemned as being patently unacceptable and the mark of a cretinous piece of shit.

equating children with LGBT or african-american people is probably the most cretinous opinion expressed thus far (aside from mordy's troll one)

ould you imagine saying that about any other group of humans?

people, including all of you, say that every day about all sorts of groups of humans. tories, bankers and comic fans are among the groups of humans i generally don't enjoy spending time with, i'm sure you have your list.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:51 AM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmao, you can't see the difference between children as one type of category of humans vs tories and comic fans as others? you realize everyday people say they "i don't hate LGBTQ people, i just actively dislike being around them and feel discomfort in their company"

Why? Children have as much control over who they are as the other groups do.

always useful to be reassured that privileged wyt dudes really have no fucking idea what constitutes societal oppression tho!

ah i see this has been addressed lol xp

always useful to be reassured that privileged wyt dudes really have no fucking idea what constitutes societal oppression tho!

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:15 AM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

you don't know anything about me but thanks for assuming im a white dude

Its ok to want to make it through the day with mental equilibrium in tact!

fair enough. i feel like if we had started with "i choose not to spend time around children" nobody would be arguing now.

it's just an absurd affect. my kids are anxiety produced and cause me heartburn regularly. but also the entire history of human civilization - and in fact life of all kind - comes down to parents having children. parents should not feel any more smug than a mosquito laying larva maybe, but to write off progeny in general as being distasteful is the stuff of disney villainy and somehow within the same ballpark as malthusian nihilism.

lol yeah there are no organizations worldwide dedicated to the rights of children, who are never oppressed

. i feel like if we had started with "i choose not to spend time around children" nobody would be arguing now.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:17 AM (thirty-nine seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree with that

More trenchantly, what if you said you didn't like LGBT people because they make you uncomfortable? Or Jewish people? Or African-Americans? Those would all be rightly condemned as being patently unacceptable and the mark of a cretinous piece of shit.

― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:14 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

equating children with LGBT or african-american people is probably the most cretinous opinion expressed thus far (aside from mordy's troll one)

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:15 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark

lollllll Phil mentioned 3 different groups and lex only mentioned 2 i wonder

like yeah I realize that the life of a child in the London suburbs is obvs different than the life of a child in Somalia but ffs

xp I noticed that as well but one battle at a time for me

whenever lex talks about ppl being privileged i remember that photo he posted of himself lounging on a cruise ship in view of a tropical island and remember that he's more privileged than probably 99% of ilx posters.

https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/

why would I suggest children suffer oppression it is truly a mystery

guys i don't think this angle of argument is a good look

Children are not oppressed as a class. Lex is right. But many children face oppression and a lot of them have hard lives and it is gauche to act like they are little more than irritating pets people want to force on you.

Tbh i dont think i actually like being around children, especially. I was a teacher and got moved from high school to middle school and haaaatttted it. But like, i don't feel righteous in having limited patience and empathy ya know.

that's exactly how i feel. i feel like a curmudgeon or a dickhead if i get narky feelings towards children. they don't know any better than to behave as they do, they are essentially having fun, trying to learn about life, mostly p harmless. maybe that's overly self-flagellating but i don't think so.

it's the same to me as feeling waves of misanthropy but never defining myself as a misanthropist, trying to see positivity in people, trying to recognise when negativity might be coming from my own problems or my own negative experiences.

misanthrope not misanthropist, god...

Everybody here trying to outdo each other in trenchant commentary about how bad and rong Lex is about children is really ...something

I periodically have to spend time with 2 of them now and I dread it, the looks of expectation from their parents and grandparents as inside inner peace is being obliterated

Children are not oppressed as a class. Lex is right. But many children face oppression and a lot of them have hard lives and it is gauche to act like they are little more than irritating pets people want to force on you.

― Treeship, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:28 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree with this. i don't feel the antipathy toward lex that others do itt. lex is smart, i value his thoughts on a lot of things, he is prob one of my favorite posters in certain ILM threads, his support of women and POC artists throughout his writing career is awesome. i just tihnk his opinion itt is incredibly small-minded and dumb. there are 2 billion kids in the world ffs. 1 billion of them live in poverty, they are vulnerable group of humans and are abused and denied of their value all the time. i don't think it is an interesting or fun opinion to celebrate how much they annoy you esp when you are basically just tihnking about rich kids in strollers in london

Everybody here trying to outdo each other in trenchant commentary about how bad and rong Lex is about children is really ...something

― El Tomboto, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:34 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ill cop to this sure

guys i don't think this angle of argument is a good look

You're probably right and I shouldn't have taken the bait.

I'll just leave it at "Expressing discomfort at being around people for their innate attributes is pretty shitty."

preemptive clusterfuck summary: fuckin' ilx

― Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, December 12, 2016 8:04 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

At least it's not about the election.

arguably this last election was between a child and a hawk!!!!11!!!

And everyone's moms and dads are to blame

sad!

children are a worse pizza topping than animals in general but a better pizza topping than dogs in particular

dogs in particular and animals in general are both more welcome in bars tho

Dogs in pubs <333333

Such joy just thinking about them

I like pub dogs because they are exactly the right duration of dog for me

what about dogs in a pub that serves child-topped pizza

An enormous dog stood up and put his paws on my shoulders and I had a meltdown, this in the house that has the two childrens in it, its like a house of horrors

what about dogs in a pub that serves child-topped pizza

vs?

children running a pizza pub for dogs

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-uccqetzglt/product_images/uploaded_images/maggie-w-label.png

former xp

https://images3.newscred.com/Zz1mZWYzODI0ODNlMGE2NTg1MDFiOWE3YmUxNGZhMDU3Mg==?height=480&width=800

the smile of a dog who knows who the good boy is <3

surprised you don't consider it an insult to call a dog "boy"

I find it exhausting to perform the emotional dance of keeping their attention and interacting w them for a few hours much less the next 25-30 years. Maybe it's less tiring when you know them well and you don't have to perform but for me it's all emoting and trying to read them 24/7.

This is illuminating, but also at odds with my experience.

You know that saying that dogs have owners and cats have staff? My children are on their best behavior for others (to them, a babysitter or teacher is an authority figure). They tend to treat me as staff.

lol yes that's even more terrifying

A propos of upthread I know ppl with kids who you can still have a conversation with while the kids amuse themselves, and then I know ones where the child is used to interrupting by yelling and demanding immediate attention and the parent obliges every time, which isn't about the nature of children as much as boundaries and compromises parents make. It's still extremely tedious though.

My mother did a good bit of hand-wringing to me on the phone last night over her grief in not having more grandchildren. She says out of the 4 kids she birthed, you'd think she'd get more than one grandson out of it, and I especially should hurry up and give her grand-daughters to dote on. I'm like, sure, figure out how I'm going to ship them to you to be raised and you're going to explain to my dad that in your retirement years of leisure you decided to be a parent all over again.

A propos of upthread I know ppl with kids who you can still have a conversation with while the kids amuse themselves, and then I know ones where the child is used to interrupting by yelling and demanding immediate attention and the parent obliges every time, which isn't about the nature of children as much as boundaries and compromises parents make. It's still extremely tedious though.

the nadir i've witnessed of the latter was one friend talking about her mother's breast cancer to another friend (with toddler), and mid-sentence the latter just...switched her attention to her child with no warning or acknowledgement

most conversations are not as serious as that, fortunately, but the tendency to abruptly abandon conversations when children wander up is pretty common in parents

please allow me to repeat myself: parents are now and have always been the real enemy.

Especially when they want become GRANDPARENTS. the horror.

Especially when they want become GRANDPARENTS. the horror.

the tendency to abruptly abandon conversations when children wander up is pretty common in parents

And without any "excuse me" etc. Parenting totally erodes people's manners and they act like oh well it's because I'm a dad now! Sorry, no, not acceptable. Chew your food first, then talk, and don't use your kid's vernacular when talking about yourself. It's not funny. You're the grown-up.

I genuinely believe that there is a certain subset of people who welcome the birth of their offspring with no small degree of joy that they can now engage in public improprieties reserved only for breeders. And they're horrible people and I feel like I can spot them from all the way across the biggest playground in my city.

special circle in hell reserved for adults who say "I have to go potty" about themselves

i think the issue of there existing kids that have shitty lives is somewhat separate to lex not being delighted by being around kids (probably in fairness likely to be kids that dont have shitty lives)

i speak as a former kid with a shitty life and not as a general fan of lex but this got a bit ridic tbh

curious as to why lex was so inundated by under-sevens in the first place

i think the issue of there existing kids that have shitty lives is somewhat separate to lex not being delighted by being around kids

oh sure it is i agree . lex is prob talking about rich kids in london but instead he frames it as "why would anyone have kids? you can't talk to them, they interrupt you, they are loud and annoying , fuck these monsters" etc

and tombot otm re parents not kids

i agree with those hypothetical questions tho

i love kids and i love to give them back and i love to judge parents as soon as an otherwise adorable bundle of potential person irritates me in the slightest

why would anyone choose to own on in 2016 tho i mean its a terrible idea.

curious as to why lex was so inundated by under-sevens in the first place

― mookieproof, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:39 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

got a few too many friends with them now (luckily plenty without, and without any intentions of having them, as well). the various social gatherings all only got good once all the parents and children left. the worst offenders were strangers though, may i never again end up in a christmas fair like the one populated by apparently 5 million screaming toddlers running straight into you from all directions and their awful parents

they can smell sneer you know

i totally understand people not enjoying the company of children and never wanting to spawn, but what kind of Christmas fair isn't going to be a child magnet? or at least a parents-dragging-their-unwilling-and-unhappy-kids-around magnet?

i've learned my lesson! i was expecting at least mulled wine and snacks and somewhere reasonably peaceful to sit. there were none of these things. i lasted 10 horrendous minutes

lex pictured at left:
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ec0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F51%2Fdd%2F85%2F51dd85b5d75559cdd99bdf85925fb74a.jpg&f=1

mulled wine makes parenting so much easier, and then so much harder

totally forgot Mordy wrote those Jacob Two Two books

i actually think i know one of his kids (or maybe it's his nephew)

i think the issue of there existing kids that have shitty lives is somewhat separate to lex not being delighted by being around kids

dunno really. a lot more abuse probably happened in the era of "kids should be soon and not heard".

getting irate about kids interrupting or barging in on conversations seems pretty childish in itself. yeah i prefer if i can talk to adults but equally kids need attention more than me and might not understand it if they don't get it.

*seen and not heard

the kids are OK. and here's why.

the "hating children = misanthropy" thing is interesting, I feel like there is also a particular kind of misanthrope who is very sentimental about children and prefers children to other adults. (kind of like misanthropic animal-lovers I guess?)

you're thinking of Tony Soprano

roald dahl

tho dunno if he was a shit to his kids as well as wives

lol, Dahl and Spike Milligan were the specific two I was thinking of, but I think it is a real phenomenon

I thought they both disliked children?

Dahl definitely.

I think Dahl identified with children, certainly, particularly in terms of fear and distrust towards adult humans

getting irate about kids interrupting or barging in on conversations seems pretty childish in itself.

what is this exaggeration? irritated ≠ irate

the "hating children = misanthropy" thing is interesting, I feel like there is also a particular kind of misanthrope who is very sentimental about children and prefers children to other adults. (kind of like misanthropic animal-lovers I guess?)

― soref, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:47 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

all the stuff upthread about children being the perfect pure embodiment of various human attributes seemed misanthropic to me. like adults' qualities aren't good enough or something!

would be weird if dahl turned out to be a misanthrope as he is the source of one of the fictional examples of children-disliking misanthropes cited earlier as evidence of er something

jenny diski on dahl: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v16/n08/jenny-diski/stinker

RD is my dad's mum's sister's husband's brother -- he had a v bad rep in our wing of the family (i never met him tho i met the sister and the husband once)

xxp yeah, this idea that children are superior to adults because adults are all compromised and fall short of some dubious ideal of purity (not accusing any of the children-defenders on this thread of thinking this way or being misanthropes)

don't think it's wrong to try and discuss the differences between children and adults itt - it wasn't framed in terms of superiority either. it's not about superiority, it's about power and expectations.

if you look back at what i said, i said children seemed to have both a capacity to be more innocent but also to behave in a more base, destructive way. but that's minus any real power, screaming for a second dessert or something, which kind of goes to the heart of it for me. there's a power imbalance between adults and children. we shouldn't expect them to behave better than us.

personally i look at myself and imagine i was probably similar to the child i see running amok for five minutes, or just as self-centred, or just as lacking in self-awareness. perhaps some people look back at their childhood with a certainty they behaved perfectly, perhaps they look at their current selves with that certainty - that must be nice.

misanthropy towards adults is at least based on some sort of equal system of choice and power, though there's still too much revelling in it, or too much assumption in popular culture that hating things means you are clever. but you know, the world right now is not built very well to stop people feeling misanthropy for legitimate reasons.

like a child approaching a parent to interrupt a conversation with another adult - who in that situation needs the attention?

if this thread is actually about bad parenting, then fine. but judging children for being children is essentially pretending you were never a child.

this idea that children are superior to adults because adults are all compromised and fall short of some dubious ideal of purity

J.D. Salinger to thread

babies are cool

i was playing with my 6 year old nephew this weekend and have surprisingly warmed up to kids that age

but ya small doses

i can put up with dogs longer because they don't have to be babied so much and aren't as smart

tyread is actually about xcomparing kids to animals

like a child approaching a parent to interrupt a conversation with another adult - who in that situation needs the attention?

if one of the adults is talking about her mother's terminal cancer, they take precedence over anything other than an actual emergency

that anecdote sounds like the parent's fault, not the child's.

both io and lex were talking about the parents' behaviour there yes

I find parents more problematic than kids at times, but I'd still take cats over anything.

both io and lex were talking about the parents' behaviour there yes

fuck off

/A propos of upthread I know ppl with kids who you can still have a conversation with while the kids amuse themselves, and then I know ones where the child is used to interrupting by yelling and demanding immediate attention and the parent obliges every time, which isn't about the nature of children as much as boundaries and compromises parents make. It's still extremely tedious though./

the nadir i've witnessed of the latter was one friend talking about her mother's breast cancer to another friend (with toddler), and mid-sentence the latter just...switched her attention to her child with no warning or acknowledgement

most conversations are not as serious as that, fortunately, but the tendency to abruptly abandon conversations when children wander up is pretty common in parents

these are the posts

i don't think you can compare one random act of massive rudeness to every instance in which a parent might interrupt a conversation to listen to their child.

sorry i swore at you - i just don't get what your view is based on these interjections.

One can see plenty of shitty parents out there (roughly in proportion to the overall percentage of shitty people).

But IME most parents are terrified and exhausted and completely winging it 94.3% of the time. Personally I'm up around 96% right now.

Sorry yr parent friends are boring you; maybe they aren't aware of how much you depend on them to entertain you. Maybe they're going through a boring phase just now (because they're tired and scared and anxious and, again, completely winging it) and will return to being the cool hip people you once knew later. Maybe not. I don't know.

WTF is this 300-post thread full of invective even?

hate to ljsplain this (actually i lie, i love to lol) but this is the situation

some ppl are uneasy around children for w/e reason

some ppl adore children oo coo otty potty bum

if these two camps respect one another's positions then we will have a functional society

if you look back at what i said, i said children seemed to have both a capacity to be more innocent but also to behave in a more base, destructive way. but that's minus any real power, screaming for a second dessert or something, which kind of goes to the heart of it for me. there's a power imbalance between adults and children. we shouldn't expect them to behave better than us.

And not to get all "it takes a village" here but children don't just absorb their social and moral cues from their parents and grandparents, they absorb them from everyone around them. Treating them like pestilent little pariahs probably not a good idea.

obviously lex should just cut all the parents out of his life; it's better for everyone

it won't help on the sidewalks, but life is sadly imperfect

some ppl are uneasy around children for w/e reason

some ppl adore children oo coo otty potty bum

if these two camps respect one another's positions then we will have a functional society

yeah louis it's fairly easy to come in and say this.

the truth of the thread is it began by someone saying they hated children, the word "hated" was used, then subsequently the hatred was toned down to a diet version of "would prefer not to be around them" - which is fine. no problem with people choosing how to spend their time.

the truth of the thread is it began by someone saying they hated children, the word "hated" was used

stop lying and exaggerating you ridiculously overdramatic person

Xps he did say that was the nadir of what io was talking about! just didn't think it fair to say either is "blaming the child"

the word "hated" was used

By lex?

you have to wonder about the motivation behind interpreting "i dislike being around children and am annoyed by them and their parents" as "i hate all children and they make me an irate monster"

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As an adult, hanging out near the elementary school playground every day is finally YOUR choice.

you know who loved children?

Humbert Humbert

oh shit now I don't know what to think

xp Jimmy Savile

He loved corpses too, so he doesn't really count.

you know who loved children?

― Our Sweet Fredrest (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:35 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he was also a vegetarian iirc

Corpses are much more polite than children tbf.

if we can ban both strollers (Britishes "prams") and dogs then I'll consider this thread a winner

lex's selective memory perhaps some indication that he is, just maybe, dimly and partially aware of being wrong here

sorry i swore at you - i just don't get what your view is based on these interjections.

I wasn't ignoring this I just got pissed off at the xpost bug

don't worry about it - I think I gave my view above, such as it is: I'm not much of a dog person but took the original revive in the spirit intended; then everybody literally - literally - I mean this literally - went insane

your posts have been good lg fwiw but otherwise tombot otm basically

lex's selective memory perhaps some indication that he is, just maybe, dimly and partially aware of being wrong here

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:58 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this overreaction to mild hyperbole is completely fucking ludicrous and, I'd posit, far more bizarre behaviour than merely ~hating children

I hate hyperbole with the fury of a hundred suns.

Two things based on what I have read:

1/ Misanthrophy does indeed come in a couple of flavours. Patricia Highsmith was def one for people hating and animal loving. Lex is hating on children and loving of dogs so both his love and hate are too particular.
2/ Not sure about this notion that children are the only disruptive ones. Dogs can be quite disruptive in pubs, crawling under your leg and begging for your attention. Often in the same class as small children. They are similar and must be trained well to behave. I try to avoid both.

3/ Plants and stones are the best.

lol Aimless

Mild hyperbole can be irritating because of the sweeping statements involved e.g.

oh and another thing is that 99% of the time having children turns formerly interesting and fun adults into complete bores (the 1% mostly comprises naturally gifted raconteurs who can make any anecdote entertaining). this thread seems evidence of that

and the 'hey I don't know why everyone gets so wound up - it's only a bit of mild hyperbole' escape clause.

he really meant only 96%

can you imagine anyone being called a bad person for not enjoying the company of dogs or cats?

If you don't enjoy the company of dogs or cats, you are a bad person.

I've only ever heard "I don't like children" from gay men and quite supercilious ones. I'm not saying that that's you, Lex, but it has driven me mad in the past. It's too much of a pose and it's one that's definitely worth resisting strongly, IMO.

On the other hand, resisting middle class indulgent parents who'll let their children do anything they want is something we should all get behind. I once saw a 5-7 year old boy climb into the freezer cabinet at waitrose (the kinda trough ones) and walk over the produce, climbing over the glass patricians that separate the trough while his mother, pushing the trolley alongside him, occasionally meekly called out "Charlie [or whatever - one of those old fashioned classy names] the man will be very cross if he sees you in there.... We could get thrown out... You might be told off soon. " & similar while I looked on aghast.

"Glass patricians" o_O

smash them

shouldnt stow thrones

I've only ever heard "I don't like children" from gay men and quite supercilious ones. I'm not saying that that's you, Lex

hmm if only there was enough evidence for us to determine this conclusively

I've heard that from all kinds of people. Including my wife. And me.

no one likes kids, the parents itt are hardcore lying to themselves because that's what they have to do. 'you tell a lie so much, you start to believe it's real...' - vito from the sopranos

gay vito?

I like kids, I just don't think anyone should be having them based on my entirely pessimistic view of what the world will be like in 50 or 20 years.

Or two years.

Everything he did was pose—a pose so deeply calculated that if one were not on the lookout one mistook it for impulse. Ralph had never met a man who lived so much in the land of calculation. His tastes, his studies, his accomplishments, his collections, were all for a purpose. His life on his hill-top at Florence had been a pose of years. His solitude, his ennui, his love for his daughter, his good manners, his bad manners, were so many features of a mental image constantly present to him as a model of impertinence and mystification. His ambition was not to please the world, but to please himself by exciting the world’s curiosity and then declining to satisfy it. It made him feel great to play the world a trick.

Fair to say: I probably like my (late) dog more than I like most other people's children, and one reason I loved him was because he was very tolerant of the children who wanted to interact with him. Probably also fair to say that I had a lot of issues with other kids when I was a kid, because what kind of asshole decides it's OK to bully another kid who is in the middle of chemotherapy?

However, entitled parents are far, far worse than their progeny, and parents being cruel to their kids in public gives me rage. See also: friends with boy children who are all 'go for it kiddo, be the best you can be' but with girl children, 'sharing is important, wait your turn'.

I've only ever heard "I don't like children" from gay men and quite supercilious ones. I'm not saying that that's you, Lex, but it has driven me mad in the past. It's too much of a pose and it's one that's definitely worth resisting strongly, IMO.

i've most often heard it from straight women, but almost always online, in the context of a vent they wouldn't be able to say out loud. hardly ever from straight men. i don't know why you'd say it's a pose or pretend to have that sort of insight into how people really feel

don't want to imagine how many different kinds of cancer my mom would have to have for me to be shocked someone spoke to their kid while i was talking about them

I may or may not be a straight woman who has ventured an opinion on OPCs while in proximity to Lex.

i think most straight men i know show a vague disliking for kids - maybe even some who have kids. i sort of agree a lot of people don't enjoy the behaviour of kids, who would enjoy it at times, i said as much about myself throughout, i just think we have a duty of tolerance towards them because they are young.

was thinking about this this morning and i think it also just depends on the person - my brother gets on prob a little better with my nephews than me because he is willing to mess-fight with them for the endless amounts of time they want to do this. i'll read them a story or watch football with them or play in the garden or interact in whatever other way, and that's grand, i enjoy hanging out with them like this and we get along well. i think over time they kind of know this as well so they're less likely to just jump on me or whatever. i wouldn't have wanted to arm-wrestle someone for an hour when i was a kid either, i liked sport but not rolling around on the ground.

I tend to find being around children exhausting and stressful, or at best boring, generally agree that it's unfair to blame the children for this though, and that parents are mostly exhausted and trying to muddle through as best they can and it's unfair to be too judgy about strangers parenting techniques.
I was waiting in line at the supermarket checkout the other day and there was a woman in front of me with two boys who were running up and down shouting and smacking each other while she determinedly looked ahead and ignored them, but if she'd turned around and said "look, I have to look after these kids 24/7, and I'm exhausted, and at the moment I don't have the energy to make them quiet down, so you're just going to have to suck it up for 5 minutes" then I couldn't really say that she was being unreasonable.

i wouldn't have wanted to arm-wrestle someone for an hour when i was a kid either, i liked sport but not rolling around on the ground.

I didn't like this kind of stuff either, it makes me think about Lex saying that even when he was a kid himself he didn't like other kids and wonder if a lot of adults who dislike being around children were the kind of kid who always got on better with adults than with other kids and looked forward to being a grown-up as a time when they would no longer have to deal with other kids, and kind of resent being pulled back in again? I think this is true of me to an extent.

i've never thought about it in exactly those terms but that's scarily accurate

I was waiting in line at the supermarket checkout the other day and there was a woman in front of me with two boys who were running up and down shouting and smacking each other while she determinedly looked ahead and ignored them, but if she'd turned around and said "look, I have to look after these kids 24/7, and I'm exhausted, and at the moment I don't have the energy to make them quiet down, so you're just going to have to suck it up for 5 minutes" then I couldn't really say that she was being unreasonable.

― soref, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 13:58 (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

RONG

execute eldest child imo as a warning

Pour encourager les enfants.

enfant terrible man

I often find myself in situations where my kid is physically attacking me and I have become so efficient and calm at dealing with it people's facial reactions to the situation can be quite comical at times. The other week I was casually maintaining a conversation about the local traffic system with a taxi driver while holding Alex off, in peak meltdown as he is trying to strangle me and clawing at my face, none of that stopping the conversation dead for the sake of the kid nonsense from me!

I probably wouldn't want to hear what some people would say about my kid's general behaviour, but fuck 'em all is the only realistic option.

I have a special needsy guy myself; his behavior in public is usually pretty benign, but it can be... unorthodox. I don't have a lot of extra mental energy to spend on what other people are concluding about my parenting skills based on his behavior.

Sometimes there's not much to be done, short of having him wear a vest that says I'M NOT A BRAT, I'M DISABLED

Yeah that period of trying to explain his condition to people didn't last very long with me either, it was often a pissing in the wind exercise of futility.

Sometimes there's not much to be done, short of having him wear a vest that says I'M NOT A BRAT, I'M DISABLED

haha

my son had one of his worst meltdowns in this indian restaurant one time and the owner was such a dick about it, everybody in the restaurant was staring at us and it was just miserable. my wife was in tears, we ended up just packing everything up before we even ordered. i brought my wife and kid back to the car and went back in to order takeout. one customer was really nice about it, he came up to me and said he was sorry for staring at us, i mentioned my son has autism and he offered to pay for the food, i declined though but it made the whole experience a little better.

Yeah, you do get a comprehensive lesson in intolerance with ASC kid, but you do sometimes find some extraordinarily good people as well, just quite rarely sadly.

Tbh taxi drivers are amongst some of the most enlightened people I meet in their attitudes towards disabled children. Lots of them have done some level of training to work on the special school contracts. In my experience bus drivers tend to be the worst though. and some of them can't hide their contempt when gets his disabled pass out. I'm almost daring one of them motherfuckers to step over line one day, because they will regret it, oh yes!

I didn't like this kind of stuff either, it makes me think about Lex saying that even when he was a kid himself he didn't like other kids and wonder if a lot of adults who dislike being around children were the kind of kid who always got on better with adults than with other kids and looked forward to being a grown-up as a time when they would no longer have to deal with other kids, and kind of resent being pulled back in again? I think this is true of me to an extent.

i have actually known kids wear "I'm autistic, what's your problem?" shirts, can see how parents would find them handy

might even've been "what's your excuse?" come to think of it

the kind of kid who always got on better with adults than with other kids and looked forward to being a grown-up as a time when they would no longer have to deal with other kids

the kind of kid who's in for a shock when he gets larger and finds out that all the "grown-ups" around him are the other kids

Or similarly overgrown babies

we have a friend whose son has ADHD and perhaps other issues not yet diagnosed and sometimes he acts out. at our school, her son was acting out one morning and she had to overhear another couple parents talking loudly, saying things like "What is WRONG with that kid?" and the like. i think she often feels pretty helpless in the face of it, just both dealing w/her son as a single mom and dealing w/judgmental strangers.

tonight i was looking through some of our family photos over the past year. my sons are very young, ages 4 and almost 2, so they have changed physically and developmentally a substantial amount in one year. it occurred to me that one of the reasons i felt so emotionally invested in responding in this thread is that, ultimately, to me, children are innately fascinating. by observing and spending time with them, i gain understandings about the ways in which we learn, develop, and form fundamental assumptions about basically anything - relationships, ourselves, the physical world, cause and effect, trust, pain, love, anger, whatever, anything. this is kind of related to what local garda was saying about kids displaying adults' best or worst traits but it is more about just being curious about and interested in how we develop those traits, form those values, build those assumptions. when i talk to my son about something - whether about why it gets cold in the winter, what death and dying are, what it means when we cook with salt instead of sugar, or why his brother gets angry and cries when he hits him, we are discussing fundamental concepts and he is forming those assumptions and developing knowledge for the first time in his life. at a basic human level i cannot understand how someone could be so uncurious about or disinterested in talking with or spending time with children when that awareness and appreciation comes so easily from doing so. i know that sounds harsh - i realize i was/am taking some perhaps very strident moral positions in response to a hyperbolic message board post. i don't want this to be a moral argument. i'm also a little baked right now. but, like, is the birth, growth and aging process of humans, their emotional, cognitive, physical, and personal development, not fundamentally interesting to you in some kind of way?

i understand not feeling comfortable spending a lot of time with them and maybe being irritated by them in certain social situations, i definitely am. when my kids finally fall asleep at the end of the day it is honestly something i feel relieved about daily, without exception. it is a lot of work to be around them. i relish moments when i can talk to another adult or enjoy a meal at a restaurant without interruption. but, like, spending time with kids helps me reflect on and be aware of fundamental aspects of being human, that are as meaningful and important as, say, talking with and offering support to a friend whose mother is dying from breast cancer, to cite the example mentioned earlier in which a toddler interrupts the conversation.

they are also really cute in the same way that puppies are ffs

That's a great post, marcos.

^^

its a nice post but its a bit omg the wonder of being a parent which yknow fair enough.

it doesnt really address THE ISSUES

I'm 47 and my wife and I never had kids, and certainly I find *infants* exasperating to be around at times, but many of my friends have raised kids who are now graduating from high school, or are in high school now, and it's been really interesting to see them discover the world as they've grown up. And we have other friends who have all recently had their first children so the whole thing starts again.

One of the most amazing child-related things I saw recently: I play guitar in a cover band, and our singer Josh has a little girl about 2 years old. Josh's wife brought her to one of our recent shows. They sat at a table right up front, and Jordan was amazingly well behaved. But not just that, she sat there and watched her dad sing like he was God Himself. She was in absolute awe of her father, like maybe he had *invented* music. It was fascinating to play while watching her watch him.

by observing and spending time with them, i gain understandings about the ways in which we learn, develop, and form fundamental assumptions about basically anything - relationships, ourselves, the physical world, cause and effect, trust, pain, love, anger, whatever, anything.

i gain understanding about these things from observing and spending time with (and talking to) adults, which...p much goes for the rest of your post too? fully-grown humans are really fascinating to learn about. what i'm saying is i don't get why there's any more ~wonderment in engaging with children than with people who have been and are still being shaped by the world, and who can actually articulate that

I feel the opposite of lex, dogs seem like such a pain compared to children, and they're guaranteed to die within like what 15 years?

and such small portions etc

at this point i'm not 100% certain lex knows where adults come from

Lex, I think you are drastically overestimating the malleability of adults.

which is a source of some wonderment itt, you have to admit

at this point i'm not 100% certain lex knows where adults come from

i don't see what relevance it has? i am interested in food, i am interested to know from a distance where it comes from, i have no interest in actually physically being on a farm.

Lex, I think you are drastically overestimating the malleability of adults.

malleability isn't what necessarily interests me about adults tho. i'm not especially invested in shaping them.

Good recent posts, I feel better now than I did before, sometimes anxiety can be overwhelming! I have limited reserves!

i am all for lex hating kids. sheesh, let the guy hate kids.

this thread got long! don't know if i can read it all.

i think we can all agree that people who REALLY love dogs want to have sex with dogs though, right?

Woofbert Woofbert

Somebody up the road from me actually got convicted for getting Hot under the Collie :p

Man's best friend with benefits

bad parenting -vs- people who want to control and dominate and yell at their captive dogs every day

i mean people legally get to walk around in public with a living creature on a leash and they are constantly yelling at and choking these innocent creatures. closet nazis, if you ask me. or maybe not even so closeted.

but those fuzzy little guys are cute. don't get me wrong. BAD DOG!

i gain understanding about these things from observing and spending time with (and talking to) adults, which...p much goes for the rest of your post too? fully-grown humans are really fascinating to learn about. what i'm saying is i don't get why there's any more ~wonderment in engaging with children than with people who have been and are still being shaped by the world, and who can actually articulate that

― lex pretend, Thursday, December 15, 2016 8:42 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i agree with that! the wonderment specific to children though is that formation is in its nascent stage and it is way more dramatic because those basic assumptions that adults often take for granted are still being questioned and developed. adult humans obviously can do that too. but to brush off that development happening in kids bc you can just say "oh that's true for adults too" i think is missing something very important about childhood.

also kids CAN articulate that!!! my 4-year-old (and just about any other verbal kid that i know, really) ) asks remarkably sophisticated questions about the world and shares insights that most adults might take for granted. talking to him about stuff is obviously different than talking to an adult but imo is not any less interesting. children are incredibly articulate about things if you meet them where they're at.

Parents vs. animal owners would be a funny poll.

I suspect lex got caught in a negative feedback loop in his interactions with and thoughts about kids and has not been yet forced into a position of intimacy with a child sufficient to break that negative cycle. He expects the worst and finds it.

Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe vs. Old Macdonald

also kids CAN articulate that!!! my 4-year-old (and just about any other verbal kid that i know, really) ) asks remarkably sophisticated questions about the world and shares insights that most adults might take for granted. talking to him about stuff is obviously different than talking to an adult but imo is not any less interesting. children are incredibly articulate about things if you meet them where they're at.

― marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 18:36 (forty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

again this is nice but imma say right now that no yr four year old does not converse at the level of a sophisticated adult

that is not what he said

and i mean caveat im sure you have a bright kid and good conversations with same etc

xp its not what he was asked either tho!

nb im nkt v invested here but its a strange thread for parents to double down on the wonderment of parenthood iycwim

takes the ile hivemind off trump for a few hours

xp its not what he was asked either tho!

he was not asked a question, do keep up

to sum up my position (for those who care); parenting is a trip, non-parents will never really understand it, lex is a clown the end

has not been yet forced into a position of intimacy with a child

please rephrase this

not all intimacy is sexual, dan

children ask very basic questions for sure

i mean parents seem to get something more out of them because of context -- the parent-child relationship

so they read into these simple questions extravagant metaphors and philosophical inquiries

but a kid basically just worries when he will eat, when he will poop, and what game s/he's playing next, but for a brief second asks why little jimmy can't play with a kid, parent says some half-truth, and thinks deeply about race relationships and injustices in the world, then drives away in their hybrid/gas-guzzling car

but a kid basically just worries when he will eat, when he will poop, and what game s/he's playing next

this is not accurate ime

i love basic questions so much

the best is hearing what answers dads give on the street

theyre not capable of thinking in complex ways due to their lack of real life experience

you can talk to them about social justice, the environment, equality, but it ends there. their reactions cannot be compared to an adult and are scientifically primitive

children are megalomaniacs and thinking contrary to that sounds pretty silly

^ Yeah, but plenty of adults don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I side with Laurie Anderson on that one

I don't get why you are equating complex thinking with political issues

xp

but an adult surely has more potential of life experience than someone who has been alive, say, 5 years

xp

their frame of reference is more limited, but there is a lot of complex thinking that goes on within that

xp

i never really thought about kids until i had kids. i didn't know many kids. none of my friends had kids. the first time i ever held a baby was when we had a baby. didn't come from a family with lots of kids. i know more kids now obviously. they're okay. most of them are pretty boring. i like my kids because that's how it works. i am definitely more sympathetic towards parents and more tolerant when i see/hear kids acting up or screaming or babies crying or whatever. they don't bother me. because i've been there.

children are emotionally underdeveloped

you want them to talk deep about what it feels that they can't eat an extra cookie? or that they accidentally peed/pooped their pants?

there is no complex thinking a child can produce because of limited and less varied experiences. their world is too highly controlled

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

Things kids are often v interested in exploring/talking about that def involve complex thinking: the natural environment, mechanical processes, basic physics, animals, the list is p long. Limiting complexity to the vagaries of human social constructs is p arbitrary.

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

but teach a baby to fish

what age are these pooping kids anyway? two?

i realize the FA symbol person is being silly, but is he/she talking about toddlers? i guess he/she must be. since he/she is talking about babies on rooftops.

yeah idk

those were random examples dude

children are limited by their vocabulary as well

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

and their 'complex thinking' is that of an average child of course. kids are empty vessels and whatever words you teach them do not have the same depth of meaning they do for adults, but parents get mesmerized when they can speak like adults

children's emotional intelligence do not improve drastically as far as i've seen til they're about 8, 9 or 10

i have/want neither children nor dogs but it doesn't seem too far-fetched that other people might. or so i gather from looking around

also seems possible that creatures might have worth outside of their ability to entertain me/avoid interrupting my conversations about cancer

don't throw your back out moving those goalposts

xp

what a bizarre thing to say

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

and their 'complex thinking' is that of an average child of course. kids are empty vessels and whatever words you teach them do not have the same depth of meaning they do for adults

unclear on how kids differ from adults based on these parameters

articulate adults - they talk p much like most other adults!
adults are empty vessels that use whatever words they've been taught
complex thinking is that of an average adult

blah blah blah

maybe you could start by defining what you mean by the words "child" and "complex thinking" cuz it's clear as mud to me

children's emotional intelligence do not improve drastically as far as i've seen til they're about 8, 9 or 10 32

^^^

but an adult surely has more potential of life experience than someone who has been alive, say, 5 years

xp

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:00 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the baby on the rooftop tragedy was a fatal combination of silliness and gravity

sorry i dont really think complexity of thought is necessarily correlated with life experience

xp

I am unclear on how an adult's "potential of life experience" is related to complex thinking. There are plenty of adults who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag after a lifetime of experience.

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

my example was my own kid bc that's who i have most experience talking w/ but i pretty clearly said this is the case for any verbal child ive talked to

it's very easy

the older the person the more potential for life experiences

that's pretty clear. why would i think a 5 year old has something more interesting to say than a 30 year old?

in practice, maybe a 30 year old may be as dumb as a doornail but the potential to better express his/herself is there

wait how is ability to express oneself related to complexity of thought, those are totally different things

children are rarely conscious of the complexities of their own feelings unless they can articulate them, and this is limited by their vocabulary and limited experiences

my first kid blew people away when he was little. with the way he spoke. he was kinda bizarre that way. he could read when he was two. probably like a lot of you braniacs. he's way smarter than me already and he's 14.

tbqf i've been exposed to more interesting things in the 5+ years i've had a kid than i have been in any five year period of my life since i myself was a kid. i think it's just taking what i normally do in my own time and adding on top of it more museums, more art, reading about astronomy and dinosaurs and marine life and math and language and what not. i think in trying to keep him engaged with interesting things, i'm more engaged as well. it's made me less cynical (in some ways) and certainly more understanding towards other parents. and like scott i never had much interaction with kids before we had ours. holding a baby, never! jeez i might drop the thing. it sounds moronic maybe but at a certain point before he was born i sort of imagined what kind of dad and by extension of that what kind of person i wanted to be, and i've tried hard to manifest that and be a better and more thoughtful and patient and kind person than i was before. i'm amazed at other parents who can become supermoms or superdads and have their four kids and volunteer daily at school and run shit, it's crazy what they can accomplish. i don't have the time or ability i'm just trying to raise a good kid and an empathetic person, and i feel lucky that a) he's surrounded by good people and has good friends, and b) he had a kind heart (though he's not above slapping the living hell out of me when he has a meltdown.) anyway, parenting is not easy and the ones who sacrifice to give their kid a better upbringing deserve admiration and not scorn because they suddenly seem boring. i find myself, personally, far less bored now at 42 than i was when i was 24 or 28 or whenever.

here's an example: I was talking w my 8yo about how the sun works the other day, what it's composed of, why it gives off light and heat, etc. some of the things involved are pretty complex (nuclear reactions, how elements are formed, that kind of thing) - by contrast I know plenty of adults (like, say, my 70yo mother) who, after a lifetime of experience, couldn't tell you a goddamn thing about how the sun works.

xp

not to take anything away from cyrus. he's really smart too.

I could read at 3, I turned out to be an idiot tho

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:03 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This reads like a lifehack

children are rarely conscious of the complexities of their own feelings unless they can articulate them, and this is limited by their vocabulary and limited experiences

what do feelings have to do with anything, I hate listening to people blabber about their feelings

xp

here's an example: I was talking w my 8yo about how the sun works the other day, what it's composed of, why it gives off light and heat, etc. some of the things involved are pretty complex (nuclear reactions, how elements are formed, that kind of thing) - by contrast I know plenty of adults (like, say, my 70yo mother) who, after a lifetime of experience, couldn't tell you a goddamn thing about how the sun works.

xp

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:23 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that was you teaching your child something

we're talking about children's ability to have an interesting, deep, emotional, or intelligent conversation. at that point, your child was not even aware of those scientific phenomena so it was hardly a conversation

not to take away from any child's ability to comprehend facts and the natural operation of the world. i think most kids are very capable

that's funny I don't remember telling you who said what in our conversation but way to assume shit

lol

i'm assuming you gave enough info to (1) make your point and (2) for me to refute it

but anyway

still cool with kids

i hate to be one of those people, but i do think kids at their best tend to be better people in general. before they get ruined by life. it's not just the innocence thing, it's more than that. it's that freshness. and that includes thinking. and expressing themselves. and creating. playing. they are some sort of ideal as far as people go. and i know i just said that most of them bore me. and they do bore me, but i would say 1 to 10 is kinda the coolest time to be human if you are the curious sort or excited by new things. learning can be so exciting for kids that age. and its sad that the end result can be a dull adult who trudges through life. it's the best time to watch your kids become people too. it's cool.

it's true that she was (in part) repeating things that she had been taught (hey, just like adults do!), but the more important aspect of the conversation was that she was able to answer questions I put to her by extrapolating from the facts she had learned to draw conclusions - which is complex thinking that most adults don't bother with cuz they're just "eh I'll look it up on wikipedia if I ever have to"

xp

that was you teaching your child something

we're talking about children's ability to have an interesting, deep, emotional, or intelligent conversation. at that point, your child was not even aware of those scientific phenomena so it was hardly a conversation

not to take away from any child's ability to comprehend facts and the natural operation of the world. i think most kids are very capable

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:27 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol this is dumb. "the conversation you had was in my opinion not interesting, deep, emotional or intelligent."

eh at this point if your argument is that children are not capable of having an "interesting, deep, emotional or intelligent conversation" i don't know why im going to bother

can't wait for you guys to agree

hey outic

its a strange thread for parents to double down on the wonderment of parenthood iycwim

― loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:28 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

being as pissy as lex from the other direction is still u getting pissy as lex in an internet thread about children vs dogs literally an internet thread about children vs dogs cmon ta fuck

scott (and Picasso) otm about the creativity thing too - "all artists are children"

xp

sorry darraghmac I'll try to throw more comedy joeks in

I'm sure lex will love that

Yah I'm interested in all those brain & personality development parts of kids too, in fact between that and giving/receiving affection I think those are basically the only reasonable reasons to HAVE kids. But I would just need to keep my interactions with them to about 1-2 hours a day. Basically I would make an OK kind of dad who is never responsible for bedtime and retreats into his study after dinner, that's kind of my ideal.

darragh people have spent almost 2 decades on this site you honestly dont tihnk people are gonna get pissy, it happens it is okay

Except when lex does it, apparently.

mehhh im done

these tacos are too tasty

"mehhh im done"

spoken like a true adult.

on a message board

these tacos are too tasty and I need to poop

could you articulate your feelings more clearly plz

the chili is givin me an existential crisis

much better

it's cool. a little lite trolling never hurt anyone. if you ever want to drop some of that adult critical thinking on here though, just go for it.

marcos otm throughout obv

What a weird read! I don't know what I have done as a father. I don't feel like I especially encouraged my daughter to walk, when she wanted to stand up I helped hold her hands, and then one day , she just stood up and started walking. Same with talking, I read to her, but never feel like I was a speech therapist teaching her to speak, one day she just started talking. I'm in awe of my child everyday, because she amazes me. My heart goes out to parents with children that have needs different than my child. I'm probably a boring parent.

nobody puts Baby on a rooftop

*dirty dances away from this disaster*

if you all want someone else to complain about, I don't like dogs

I dont like dogs and i even less like owners who treat dogs like humans, call them "furbabies" and talk endlessly about them, and mourn them for 10 years after theyre dead. That just ... god, have a child.

Lol

Thorstein Veblen was a champion dog-hater, as immortalized in several passages in The Theory of the Leisure Class, so you are in distinguished company silby.

i beg your pardon, trayce, furbabies do not die, they go to the rainbow bridge, please get your "facts" straight.

people who hate kids and make everyone around them aware of how much they hate kids are creepy

UGGGGH at the cloyingness of anything to do with 'rainbow bridge'.

also getting pissy at people for mourning their pets for however long is also creepy

granted not in the same way but it sets off the same "o_0 jfc get over it" thing in my brain

i dislike the "furbaby" thing and talking about pets like they're you're children but that's an aesthetic thing, it has no bearing on how much of a shit people give about their pets

has anyone itt actually said anything in favor of either children or pets

no way of checking I suppose

well i went back to the point where multiple grown adults argued about whether or not children are good conversationalists but my eyes glazed over and now i'm dead and here's my corpse

wait is mourning a pet now unacceptable???

multiple grown adults argued about whether or not children are good conversationalists but my eyes glazed over and now i'm dead and here's my corpse

for real that was just...that any adult could argue a 5yo is as good a conversationalist just encapsulates how boring and awful people get on parenthood, when their level of conversation is reduced to talking about their child, in whom i am uninterested. it explains a lot

diversity adds perspective to a conversation

will someone please ban me from this hell

there's a deep irony waiting to be unearthed here somewhere beneath the bizarre oblivion that's required to earnestly assess children's worth, as an entire group, based on their lack of ability to converse at the level of adults.

I don't know about conversation, but for some parents, when they see their child's face, they are taken away to that special place. And if they'd stare too long, they'd probably break down and cry.

Gotta check the privilege of sitting judgement of who is boring and who is not.

I was gonna wade in last night on whether we should assess the worth of, say, adults with learning disabilities based on their ability to discuss Vorticism but then I thought "this cluster is probably fucked enough right now" so peace

the cluster cannot take any more

no one is "assessing the worth" of anyone. local garda why are you exaggerating everything??

I wasn't talking about you there lex, as I said ages ago I think a simple statement of "I don't enjoy the company of children" is understandable and reasonable

there was a whole wild tangent that ∞ was getting into about expression and communication and ideas that bears no resemblance to my experience of what individual humans - kids or adults - can share with us if we're receptive to them, or about what interactions and relationships really are about, or about any experience I recognise about being one being in a world full of beings tbh

i'll leave that for others to decide xpost.

lex started it

theyre not capable of thinking in complex ways due to their lack of real life experience

you can talk to them about social justice, the environment, equality, but it ends there. their reactions cannot be compared to an adult and are scientifically primitive

I mean, there are umpteen ways that this is just wrong, to me, but the heart of the wrongness is that somehow "complex" thinking produces the kinds of interaction most worthy of our time. I mean, to go back to animals for a minute, how much I value interacting with a dog or a cat is not remotely predicated on what I believe to be the complexity of their abstract thought

what is it that children fail to do, in conversations, which adults have learned to do?

i'll leave that for others to decide xpost.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, December 16, 2016 9:57 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

others can decide what they want but you've consistently exaggerated everything i've said to a ludicrous extent. you're a fucking disingenuous weirdo for it.

i don't think that's true, the previous time you said this was when you forgot you used the word "hated".

and when you wilfully misinterpreted "irritated" as "irate"?

do not try it with me ronan. leave me the fuck alone.

i mean you revived a thread called "children v dogs" - you could take a minute and think "maybe some of the things i'm saying are offending people, why is that?"

i say that as someone not personally offended by anything you said itt.

the original thread didn't seem to contain any offended people despite several posters opting for dogs???

is there a reason for that? i haven't read the original. it might contain different words i suppose.

oh is this still going on? yes yes children are terrible they bang on and on about the same thing for days and get mardy when people don't say what they want

fair comment but we need to hear from hunde for balance

is there a reason for that?

Fewer ILXors had kids 12 years ago.

I like asking parents about their experiences - or rather their kid experiences, particularly with technology. The subject fascinates me although I'm not set on having kids myself.

I've still got it in for anyone who puts 'Dad' (or, worse, 'Husband') in their Twitter bio though. What is that about?

DONT TRY IT

Wilf is annoyed with the turn this thread has taken. You really don't want to annoy Wilf.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czy_XHCWEAEX1fl.jpg

I would never annoy Wilf! I choose Wilf!

whippet I'd like to f?

Wilfred!

LOL, his owner is gay and Wilf makes a beeline for any well-dressed man in the street, so one of his owner's many nicknames for this guy is Cock Magnet.

I ran some tests. I found that dogs instinctively know how to swim and children do not. Point goes to dogs.
Unfortunately I'll need a good amount of time before I am reequipped and able to run the next test.