Do you lose respect for people when they show weakness/unhappiness?

Yes I definitely know some people like this. I don't really mean them in the question though.

I guess I mean the sense that people being unhappy is seen as like a sort of moping, is there any benefit it in it? Does anyone actually want to know?

And lately, since I've taken notice of this (since I lost my job and sig. other last fall and seen people's cautious, guarded sympathy for me), I've really taken to trying not to appear depressed, to put a bright spin on things that are happening now.

I really hope you mean "lost" as in split up and not death.

yeah Jel is pretty otm

How interesting. I know someone who I'm rapidly losing respect for, but it's more for a lack of ...honesty? in facing up to the bad stuff that happens. Like, if she never admits that she might have contributed to things going wrong, she can stay a victim and never do the work of changing or growing up. A very specific case, I know.

Apart from that, though, why in the world would someone's happiness be linked to respecting them?

Like, if she never admits that she might have contributed to things going wrong, she can stay a victim and never do the work of changing or growing up.

I broke up with a friend because of this but only after years of throwing emotional, financial, and logistical support down the bottomless pit of her unexamined despair. It's been years and I still get furious at her when I think about it (especially because I still run into her in various on-line places and she has not changed one iota and people that were our mutual friends are still making regular deposits into her First Personal Bank of Suck).

I think I would be more likely to lose respect for someone who didn't show signs of unhappiness or weakness occasionally.

well, i think it's an issue of negativity -- i tend to respect people who make the most of things, as opposed to those who are constantly and willfully negative about their circumstances.

I was raised in a family that keeps their negative feelings very VERY close to the vest and brought up to believe that sadness was for children and people who didn't have enough work to do. So it took me some time and some intentional mental reprogramming to get over the idea that sadness was, in fact, a serious character flaw and indicative of fundamental weakness. I'm much happier for it now, and hopefully I am a much better friend and companion. My family still keeps things on a nice, smiling superficial level, honest emotions-wise, though.

wow, that's really interesting. "sadness is for people who don't have enough work to do"

Depression as a luxury of the upper class kind of thing.

True facts: my mom was very likely diagnosably clinically depressed during a good chunk of my childhood, bless her heart.

that's a really tough set of rules to grow up with. things have changed so much in the era of pill-popping prognoses, huh?

Oooh Jenny, that's interesting. You could be sad in my family, but the only person allowed to show anger was my dad, and he wasn't particularly good at getting angry without breaking something. So learning to weather aggression and expressed anger, and return serve on both, is my personal to-do list.

I kind of like negative people, but funny ones, with bite. Not really so much mopers. But "have fun with" is not the same as "respect" -- some people are WAY more fun than others, but that's only one part of what they have to offer.

i lose respect for people if they cry in public. Unless they have some serious misfortune, like they get a waiver if someone has died or whatever.

that seems a little harsh. i've cried in public when something really serious has happened, even if it wasn't someone dying.

well not just death, but "or whatever", serious shit.

i don't think any less of other people who show it, unless they're a whining crybaby who does it all the time, in which case i'm not their friend, but i'd def think less of myself if i did it. if i'm unhappy it's private, you know? not for public consumption. and yeah, absolutely a sign of weakness.

i place great value on emotional self-sufficiency, basically, it's something i'm v good at.

Bah, I cry all the time! As a kid, if I thought I was going to cry in public, I'd slap myself in the face as a distraction. But at some point it stopped seeming like a weakness for others to exploit, or maybe I just stopped giving a shit.

soo. unhappiness = weakness = shame.

i think it's important to make the distinction between this being someone's normal state of mind or whether there's fair cause- Lex OTM.

it just seems emotionally incontinent, to let it out in public. that said it's not as if i cry in private either.

and why would you ever publicise how easy it is to hurt you?

OK I don't do it all the time or anything but I've definitely cried in public and seen others do the same and not lost any respect for them. Sometimes shit is upsetting and you just can't help it! Actually, it completely breaks my heart when I see someone crying in public. I always want to go see if they're ok.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/crying%20in%20the%20club/anotherbundie/Image030.jpg

Emotionally incontinent is probably a good way to describe me. I.e. if I'm going to cry, there's fuck all I can do about it, I don't actually understand how people stop themselves from crying, I just can't do it, I basically have to hide in the bathroom until it stops.

Erm, not that this actually happens on anything like a regular basis - probably not for years e.g. had row with ex-gf in a pub in about 2002-ish, had to hide in toilet cubicle until stupid leaking eyes dried up.

Last time I cried in public was when I saw a woman get hit by an SUV. Usually I am able to keep things contained until I can get to a bathroom or other safe space.

The thing is, a lot of times when I cry, especially in a public place, it's less because I'm sad and more because I'm angry or frustration or otherwise emotionally overwhelmed. Like I wasn't sad (that came later after I thought about it more) to see the woman get hit by a car, but I was shocked and horrified and surprised in a bad way.

uh, yeah. i think there should be a balance between emotional incontinence and emotional sterility.

btw i like that SUV was a crucial part of the story, not just "car"

i'm genuinely proud of the fact that i haven't cried, in public or in private, since 2001

I wish I found it easier to cry. There've been many times when I've felt a good cry would sort me out, but it's just not happening.

The thing is, a lot of times when I cry, especially in a public place, it's less because I'm sad and more because I'm angry or frustration or otherwise emotionally overwhelmed.

Whenever I feel tempted to cry in public, it is definitely from anger/frustration issues.

;_;

Whenever I feel tempted to cry in public, it is definitely from anger/frustration issues

Oh yeah, I'm with you, just feeling overwhelmed rather than sad. The closest I've come to tears recently was when I was teaching a class and it was going really badly.

i'm genuinely proud of the fact that i haven't cried, in public or in private, since 2001

― lex pretend, Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:58 AM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

o_O

why would you ever publicise how easy it is to hurt you?

This is how I saw the world in junior high, for sure. I couldn't pinpoint when, but sometime between age 13 and now, it stopped seeming like a big deal. I guess partly b/c a lot of the kinds of attacks that would have hurt me in jr high would be genuinely puzzling now.

xp, yeah. i understand that sort of pride, but it also disturbs me a bit.

no shame whatsover in crying per se, all depends on the cause.

i sort of cried a lil bit (ha, srsly tho, real blood-out-of-stone biz) during my last break-up, due to the incredible combined pressures of guilt, fear and relief. otherwise i think i'd beat lex's record (not that i'd feel particularly proud of this).

i also have to point out that this hasn't really taken a great deal of effort - it takes a lot to make me cry. it's actually more cuz i'm mostly quite content - whenever i'm feeling down i tend to think how much worse it could be, and then crying seems...foolish, in a way.

http://img.skitch.com/20080714-f1m5bg36ctayjc6ehdbhdknhw9.preview.jpg

Hah was thinking of that song the other day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPdgtFGpU3Q

Imagine if Bunny Sigler was singing this is in a more accusatory way. That's my reaction when I see someone crying in public.

there's also crying in response to a song, or movie, which happens to me a lot

i cry, a lot of times, in response to ilx threads

xps
Who is it and what is he singing? (I bet I should know that)

I sometimes think it might be something ingrained in me because of genetics or whatever. Great family story: great uncle Peter is working doing tiling on Glasgow's Princes (many decades ago, 50s, 60s or something) one of his colleagues falls three stories and lands on his back. There's a great commotion. One of Peter's coworkers rushes over to him, he's still tiling, "Peter, come quick, X has fallen". Peter's answers him, "I'm a tiler, not a doctor".

Glasgow Prince's Square. I cannot type a post in to ilx without missing out a word or making a typo!

btw i like that SUV was a crucial part of the story, not just "car"

Big vehicle, little person. I was probably trying to justify why it was horrible enough to make me cry!

Oh and yeah, I cry in response to movies/TV shows/songs alllllllllllll the time. So much that I did not even count that in my "crying in public" recap since it is so much just a thing that I do.

yes, TV shows too!

If anything I would be slightly suspicious if people didn't show some chinks in their steely exterior from time to time; being "too tough" to cry isn't an endearing trait. Also the amount of unhappiness one feels isn't relative to everyone else's - if you feel down it doesn't matter if there is someone in the world who is more "deserving" of being depressed. Advice like "pull your socks up because depression is a middle class indulgence and only available to starving Third Worlders" is a bit o_O and counter-productive in the long-run, although I guess how it might work for you on a personal level.

On the other hand, I have known people who negatively wallow in their own unhappiness and refuse professional help - in the end you can't offer them any further advice as a friend and get the distinct impression that, yes, this is as much about fulfilling some need for attention as actual depression/unhappiness.

Also I know this is from five years ago, but WTF:

A friend of mine just lost his wife of five years. I feel terrible about it, but at the same time, though I've known him for more than 10 years, I can't help but recognize a small part of me that feels relief in the fact that his picture-perfect relationship with this person failed.

Stay classy Internet weirdo, wherever you may be.

that whole post is otm.

as a kid i was pretty self-contained and repressed a lot of emotions -- these days, i will usually start to tear up when any very strong emotion hits the surface -- not only sadness but also frustration, anger, joy, tenderness. it took a while for my boyfriend to figure out that crying doesn't always mean i'm upset -- sometimes i'm just ~~emotional~~

crying in front of anyone - even my husband - is basically one of my worst nightmares, yet i have no problems with other people crying around me

Oh and yeah, I cry in response to movies/TV shows/songs alllllllllllll the time

I often cry when music is esp. really good or beautiful

^^same as justine for me

prolly means you both have some sort of support gene, like you can support other people more than you ask for support

also i feel ya Tom D

i always gotta keep the tears in until i can find a mirror

ha i'm really awkward about what to do when someone's crying - but if they're just down and need advice or just to talk, i can do that.

:) so basically sadness just creeps you the fuck out

bets thing to do is hold their hair back so it doesn't get wet

Grab a hanky and blow their nose for them

that's all for vomiting, i think.

i'm ok with people crying around me and trying to comfort them or whatever, but i really rarely ever feel the need to cry, if that doesn't come out as some weird/stunted line.

it's ok guys, you don't need to cry. the world is better off with some of us and some of you :D

i give people way more sympathy when they've vomiting than when they're crying

lex will you DJ at my funeral?

i have no problems comforting almost anyone who's upset/crying, and it doesn't even enter my mind to judge them for it (generalising here, if someone's gonna cry over something retarded then i'm less sympathetic). but if i'm really upset about something - it's usually anger - and feel tears coming, i will practically have an anxiety attack about trying to keep it in. the problem is that i'm naturally quite a cry-er - movies, tv, sad stories, getting depressed/sad/angry/super happy.

about the only time i can think that i wasn't completely mortified about crying was at my wedding. but there were only 3 ppl there, and i'm def dreading the bigger and more formal version next year.

also have huge respect for emo kids that vomit in front of the mirror.

i'm done now.

This is a very difficult one for me.

I don't think I ever lose respect for anyone who shows weakness/unhappiness/cries in public - I try to be really understanding of this kind of thing, because of things I've gone through in mine own life.

My problem is, however, that lots of people *have* felt this way about me. I've suffered from a quite serious diagnosed mental illness (bipolar disorder) since my early teens, and displays of weakness/unhappiness really do just come with the territory there. No, I don't think that having a mental illness is some kind of "free pass" for bad behaviour. But it does tend to make you reexamine concepts like "willfull" when your brain sends you on some kind of weird trip where you break down and cry in the bathroom for 48 hours with no reason.

People kind of break down into two strands over this - those who just can't stand it and won't put up with it (I wonder if these are the kind of people who would shout "just get a move on, just stand up and WALK!" to someone in a wheelchair with a broken leg) and get angry with you or accuse you of somehow doing it deliberately or wilfully as an attention getting plot. (Do you really think I'd *choose* to be like this, for this long?)

And then there are those who act like they are trying to FIX you, and doing you some kind of giant magnanimous favour - and then get angry with you when you don't respond to their amazing wonderful support that they're granting you with.

There is no "fixed" with this illness. There's only "better" (in the comparative sense, not in the "all better now" sense) and "worse". It's sometimes a daily struggle dealing with it. There is not "do" or "do not" there is only ever try.

Erm, sorry, that was a bit of a rant. I've been really struggling with this kind of thing lately.

I am in my mid-twenties now & am sort of transitioning into seeing adults I like as follows-in-brokenness rather than as models of viable solutions - it's difficult though! I feel like the behaviour in thread title is part of part of what I'm trying to outgrow.

Respect isn't the word exactly, though: it's more like learning to think "why I am I surprised?" when discovering someone I did and do respect shows weakness/unhappiness.

People kind of break down into two strands over this

what about people that just listen, try to understand and don't judge you?

Ah, I was detailing the two strands of the people that hate you for showing weakness/unhappiness.

People who don't judge, and try to understand (without trying to fix) tend not to hate you. :)

k :)

The "trying to fix" impulse is really, really terrible for both people, because the person doing it usually goes there because they feel that the person suffering is in a bad place and would be much happier if they could get the monkey off of their back and the person receiving it alternately feels like shit for letting the fixer down and incredibly resentful that the fixer has no fucking clue about the crier's situation, otherwise the "fixing" wouldn't be happening.

I had to learn this the hard way by marrying someone way more emotional than I am.

Was just re-reading the early posts here and I'm getting a hunch about the idea (expressed here mostly by Britishes?) that it's shameful to show unhappiness or admit to things going wrong. I think it's got to involve some kind of old religious idea that we get what we deserve...so if someone is unlucky or unhappy, they must have done something to earn that, that it's a sign of a fault or flaw in the person.

Come to think of it, that might not be religious, it might come from fear...that if it can happen to someone else, it can happen to you. Better make it their own fault, quick!

defo not religious or the americans would be the kings at it!

brits are a godless lot.

I don't lose respect for people when they show weakness/unhappiness but I am terrified that other people will lose respect for me if I do.
When I am depressed or have something weighing on my mind I either stop talking to people completely or become extra flippant and even arrogant because for some reason I would rather have people think me a dick than unhappy.

omg sooo true for me as well

A book I like about the Stiff Upper Lip: James Eli Adams - Desert Saints and Dandies

I do express unhappiness often, but in my experience it does turn people off. So attempts to not do this are born more out the desire to stay popular. How much to care about what others think is a tough balance imo - not something that should be completely ignored or acceded

I hate admitting to mistakes and am stubborn goat but am harder on myself for making them. In turn am harsh on what you'd call repeat offenders.

I think it's got to involve some kind of old religious idea that we get what we deserve...so if someone is unlucky or unhappy, they must have done something to earn that, that it's a sign of a fault or flaw in the person.

Come to think of it, that might not be religious, it might come from fear...that if it can happen to someone else, it can happen to you. Better make it their own fault, quick!

I think this happens with disease and disability, too.

it's shameful to show unhappiness or admit to things going wrong

definitely for me! i guess when i am faced with someone who will readily admit their weakness/unhappiness I think something like "wow this person must be really really sad if they're prepared to tell me about it". + It can be sort of flattering, if a person is willing to be weak in front of you? Obv only if it's a person who's usually pretty closed off.

i'm trying to figure out if there's a very specific event from when i was a kid that has made me this way - i mean, i don't ever recall my mother comforting me when i was upset, she just wasn't that way with me, i had just had to learn to stfu. but i do remember that when i was 13 and at my grandfather's funeral (who i was extremely close to), we were at the gravesite, tons and tons of ppl there, i'd been trying to hold in my tears and then i just couldn't - and so there i am, 13, bawling my eyes out, and no one comforted me, my mum just sort of gave me a sidelong glance. it was so utterly isolating and humiliating. eventually my stepdad came forward and put his arm around me (which was pretty ironic, since we had basically hated each other for the preceding 8yrs, and from that moment on we became much closer).

i'm genuinely proud of the fact that i haven't cried, in public or in private, since 2001

― lex pretend, Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:58 AM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

o_O

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:03 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Yeah, I think that's really strange. I mean I'm not saying it's something to be proud of but not crying in public isn't something I'd wear as a badge of honor either.

Confession - I cried in public yesterday. I didn't sit around bawling. As soon as it started I collected myself as best I could and stopped but I wasn't ashamed or anything. I don't think I'm an overly emotional or unstable person by any means but if something touches me deeply then I can't necessarily promise I won't start to tear up regardless of where I might be at the time.

I don't lose respect for people when they show weakness/unhappiness but I am terrified that other people will lose respect for me if I do.

I don't think I'd want to know someone who would do that. I mean shit happens and people get upset. Life.

Justine that is incredibly sad. :-(

you're gonna make me cry! ;-)

xposts or actually no - it isn't just people who are usually closed off, it is just certain people.

just1n3! That story makes me really sad and it makes me want to give you a hug. (It didn't make me cry, though.)

for real

I do express unhappiness often

I think there's a big difference between expressing unhappiness and being sad- UK/Irish would definitely express unhappiness as much as any other culture I've ever come across, but maybe we do it more by moaning, or getting angry, than being sad.

xxxp to ENBB yeah but it's not that simple (not wanting to be friends with ppl who wouldn't still respect you) - i know for an absolute fact that my husband has no problems with me crying in front of him about anything, and he is someone who's not afraid to cry if the need arises, and is also 100% supportive of me, would not hesitate to comfort me if i cried... yet... i still can't do it. i mean, i have, and usually i've felt so much better afterwards. but then next time, when i'm feeling that way again, i'll push and push and push it down. it's not a rational thing.

lolz sorry guys, didn't mean to bring total bummerz to the thread with my granddad story!

Oh no I understand that 100% Justine. I just meant that I wouldn't really care to be friends with someone who would genuinely lose respect for someone else who showed unhappiness and/or sadness every now and then.

I think there's a big difference between expressing unhappiness and being sad

ok yeah i should've specified the kind of unhappiness where i am sad (more than angry)!

oh just1n3 that's a really sad story, poor thirteen-year-old you. :(

It really isn't a rational thing: I do not think my friends would mind if I showed weakness in front of them, but nevertheless I am terrified that they might. So I can only talk about something bad that has happened long after the event, when my head is a little clearer, when even if I started crying or got really honest it wouldn't be so shameful.

when I cry in public - which sometimes happens, and generally from frustration as people have said upthread - I cry all the more because I am ashamed of crying in public.

when I cry in public - which sometimes happens, and generally from frustration as people have said upthread - I cry all the more because I am ashamed of crying in public.

oh god, so otm

yeah that happens and it's sort of like the thing where you laugh more in situations where it's inappropritate to laugh which, tbh, happens to me a lot more often than crying in public and is also a lot more distressing for me

I don't lose respect for people when they show weakness or unhappiness...UNLESS they use their unhappiness as a manipulative tool.

I've been in the dumps the last few months years months with cares that I can't really do anything about, and I've withdrawn from friends because of it. One friend who had sent me a few unanswered emails finally said "okay, I'm beginning to think I've done something to upset you! What's up?" So I finally unburdened myself and wrote out all my miseries in an email to him...and I haven't heard from him since. I guess his answer to the thread question would be yes, eh?

I've thought about laying out all my cares on ILX to seek advice, but good sense has carried the day so far.

See that's the kind of thing I mean. I'd wonder about that friend if it's been a reasonable amount of time and he still hasn't responded then that's just . . . cold. I'm not saying it's necessarily appropriate to unburden all your shit on strangers/co-workers/associates etc. but isn't that what good "friends" are for?

Sometimes it's actually easier to seek advice - or rather, support - from strangers, because the fear of judgement isn't as harsh as with people you know really well.

I'd like to give people like that the benefit of the doubt, and think that maybe they just don't know what to say. But in those cases, it's far better to say "I don't know what to say" than to say nothing at all.

UNLESS they use their unhappiness as a manipulative tool.

haha i just wandered away from the computer, thinking this over, and thought: one problem for me in showing weakness is that I can think that crying, and being visibly upset, is being manipulative.

(maybe that's why i don't lose respect for my friends when they show weakness: because i can feel confident that I am not being manipulated)

(and indeed if i am being manipulated i don't particularly care when it's someone i really like)

Someone once got REALLY mad at me for crying in front of him, I think he felt it was manipulative? I was just...upset. Major, major confusion of expectations there. Never did quite get it worked out.

My man's first instinct when someone cry is the same as yours, c sharp major. We've had to work on that since I am a crier.

i'm genuinely proud of the fact that i haven't cried, in public or in private, since 2001

― lex pretend, Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:58 AM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

o_O

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:03 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

I can dig this sentiment, but it's because from like 1998-2005 I was crying almost all day, at least once a week, in public (or private when possible). It's like REALLY FREEING and NICE to not have to fear that, to know while it may happen sometimes (and for good), it's not a CONSTANT.

My dad, man...he got SO SUPER PISSED when any one of us cried. (us = me & the sibs) It was so ridiculous and truly inexplicable. How it worked: 1. Kid cries. 2. Dad says "You better stop crying by the time I count to five, or I'll give YOU something to cry about!" 3. Dad whips off belt (item with which he spanked his children). 4. Kid, naturally terrified and (after this happening so often) Pavloved out about the sound of a freaking belt snapping, cries MUCH HARDER. 5. Dad proceeds to "whip the tar out of" kid.

And still after this I am a crying maniac!

lolz my mum was also a big fan of threatening me if i cried - cuz yeah of course that's not gonna terrify a kid further into crying!

"do your chores boyah and quit yr crying or i'll whip you with this strap" is one of those weird threats that never works

it did work in making me pretty much completely terrified of my mother, tho.

like, there's no way i was ever brave enough to throw a tantrum in public

Yes, in my case it was, "If you were looking for a way to kill this relationship, you just found it. Keep crying, and it'll be over." Yes. Clearly a genius move.

Obv what I really need is to learn to say, "Sit down and stop being an asshole" with out interrupting a good cry.

abbott that sounds like what they call "abuse"

:(

i despise folks who cannot handle someone crying without turning into a d-bag

What, getting spanked with a belt? Hah! Abuse, pshaw. Belts, hairbrushes, wooden spoons, even an actual spanking paddle for a while, until one of us kids "accidentally" broke it.

obv, but: equating crying w/ weakness = you are probably uncomfortable dealing w/ your own emotions & therefore worse off than the one crying.

Wait Laurel - someone you were dating said that to you?? Wow.

laurel otm - + shoes

Oh, what is that a tear Pantera?
Is my little girl upset?

and the cord from the electric jug. altho i don't actually remember that being used so it may have just been a threat

We got spanked with a belt. It sucked.

Hmm, yes. I think we escaped electrical cords somehow. Probably because the hairbrush was closer to hand.

i despise folks who cannot handle someone crying without turning into a d-bag

― spiritual giant Cubby Culbertson (omar little), Thursday, 25 June 2009 18:52 (3 minutes ago) Permalink

me too. my uncle used to get really angry with me when i was little, cuz i was kind of a scaredy-cat (and gay), and my aunt never stood up for me enough. it was terrible. he took his hand to me a couple of times and i still haven't forgiven it.

yeah i don't believe in hitting a kid, with anything.

it's just a really fucking lazy way of parenting.

totally agree with you, ramzi

i despise folks who cannot handle someone crying without turning into a d-bag

― spiritual giant Cubby Culbertson (omar little), Thursday, 25 June 2009 18:52 (3 minutes ago) Permalink

Yeah, I guess I pretty much agree but didn't have the balls to say it as directly earlier.

Ha guyz my Mom hit me last year. You know what that was? NOT AWESOME.

wtf. slapped on the face?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think my parents ever hit us very HARD, it just seems like it when you're little. Which is still a valid point. But I think it was more fear than actual pain.

x-post Yep. Right across it and pretty hard too. I was more in shock/disbelief than anything else. Like, seriously? It was not ok.

i think my parents would've been fine w/crying but i wasn't much of a crier as a child either. more for physical pain like falling over, actually.

obv, but: equating crying w/ weakness = you are probably uncomfortable dealing w/ your own emotions & therefore worse off than the one crying.

really don't think this is true at all, why do people make these assumptions? so annoying

yeah i don't believe in hitting a kid, with anything.

― surm, Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:58 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's just a really fucking lazy way of parenting.

― surm, Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:59 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, I strongly disagree with that and find that entire line of thought presumptuous, self-righteous and offensive.

i despise folks who cannot handle someone crying without turning into a d-bag

i dunno! it is pretty hard to deal with people crying. I think I'm pretty decent at it in most circumstances now - from being very close to some pretty weepy people - but when someone's crying and you suspect you had something to do with it, but you don't think what you did deserves it, and you feel like a heel, and then you feel like wait no it's their fault for blowing this out of proportion, and then you get angry, or you already were angry anyway and now you're guilty-angry... it's easy to be a d-bag.

^^^ that is very OTM

I was thinking more along the lines of someone crying about something that you were in no way the cause of. I think getting uncomfortable at someone crying because of something you think you did/said is somewhat understandable but you still don't have to be a douche about it.

dan, i think anyone before our generation smacking kids /= lazy parenting, but now... i think it's a terrible thing to do to a kid - it's humiliating and just seems instinctively wrong to me, like i don't slap ppl who work beneath me if they misbehave or do something wrong, and if a kid is not old enough to have explained to it what it did wrong, then i don't think it's old enough to be punished.

but this is prob not the place for smacking/spanking arguments

why do people make these assumptions? so annoying

Why do people draw conclusions based on life experiences? So lame. Admittedly, what I was suggesting is not some universally applicable theorem. To elaborate/rephrase: In my experience, those who would be objectively disdainful of an adult crying in public are often bothered by any semblance of emotional extremity & IMO catharsis > repression, at least most of the time. My family also largely consists of people who sequester anything even remotely "emotionally revealing" in a lolFreudian closet & I see that they are generally more nervous & less comfortable with themselves than an individual sensitive enough to be brought to tears by an upsetting situation, whether such occurs in public or not.

Yeah, I strongly disagree with that and find that entire line of thought presumptuous, self-righteous and offensive.

― get money fuck witches (HI DERE), Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:08 PM (48 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok. i can't see how it's presumptuous, self-righteous or offensive to believe that hitting a child is wrong and lazy, but whatever.

humans shouldn't hit other humans. period.

x-post Yep. Right across it and pretty hard too. I was more in shock/disbelief than anything else. Like, seriously? It was not ok.

― ☺☻☺☻come on ppl now smile on u brother☺☻☺☻ (ENBB), Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:04 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

geez i'm really sorry E. i hope it's OK between you two...

eh . . . it is what it is ;-)

It's offensive and presumptuous to presume that corporeal punishment is always abuse and that you always know how to raise other people's children, particularly if you don't have any.

i don't assume anything about any situation in particular, but i firmly believe that hitting another human is abusive, and i don't need to have kids to believe that.

That's a flat-out contradiction.

i don't know what you mean.

i don't assume anything about any situation in particular

but i firmly believe that hitting another human is abusive

I don't have any problem with spanking either. In my family "spanking" just meant "light slap on the arm or ass."

"I'm not making any assumptions, I just know that you were abused because your parents spanked you for shoplifting."

the situation=hitting another human
your hypothesis=you don't assume anything about any situation

We were pretty good kids, so after our sixth or seventh birthdays we got groundings instead.

ok. i really, really don't feel like arguing over semantics.

if i'm "making assumptions" by believing that hitting a child is wrong and unintelligent, so be it.

I also have no problem with spanking a dog when you're housetraining it.

I have no problem with spanking a monkey.

as the occasional receiver of a disciplinary spank as a child (hand, never an implement) i never understood the use of the various spanking weaponry i heard of / was sometimes threatened with. the fact of being powerless, restrained, and struck by a parent was always sufficiently painful / humiliating

i would also like to clarify that i did not say that all forms of physical punishment are "abuse." i simply said that i do not agree with any form of it.

You also said that people who do it are lazy and unintelligent. Kudos to you.

no, i did not say that. i said that i believe the act is lazy and unintelligent. please do not twist my words.

some kids need a slap on the ass once in a while, but if that's the only weapon in your disciplinary arsenal i think it's a big problem

Well yeah, you don't spank your kids because they didn't set the table.

I took a class from a child psych prof in college who had been part of a national study about spanking in the mid or late 90s. What they found was that spanking wasn't decisively right or wrong, but that spanking could have a net-positive effect when the parent/s administering it had already established themselves as deserving respect and as having the right to administer discipline. In situations where parents had NOT previously established the right to discipline children, the overall effect of spanking was negative.

Reading between the lines, here, if parents are perceived as loving, responsible providers who are also In Charge, spanking can be an effective part of the parenting toolbox. If they haven't earned or otherwise established respect from their families, spanking is going to make that worse.

I think the trouble with spanking your kids is that there's a line that's not hard to point to, but impossible to make a parent understand or follow, because it has to do with their intention. There's a whole lot of parents that believe that sparing the rod means spoiling the child, and they believe that a bit of corporal punishment never killed anyone, and I think they are absolutely right. I got a spanking or two in my day, and I was being a little shit, and whole-heartedly believe that I needed a little sting and a scare to learn me somethin'. It doesn't hurt as much as it shames, and of course it establishes the parent as the authority figure in a no-bullshit way. Alfred is right -- it's not a lot unlike training a dog. In fact, it may be exactly like training a dog.

ON THE OTHER HAND there's what Abbott describes, which, I'm sorry, just sounds sadistic. If you cry, and he beats you for crying, which inevitably makes you cry harder, clearly he just enjoys the beating part. It doesn't make sense otherwise. There's nothing to be learned from that except to avoid and resent Dad, and also how to scare the shit out of others. It's emotional abuse, if not physical.

By the way, you don't have to lay a finger on your kids to abuse the shit out of them. In fact, that's abuse right there.

xpost

I agree with Laurel's post 100%.

that's totally in line with my experience. Also: you can't abruptly start spanking a child when they're five or six; like you said, it's part of the arsenal, introduced early (along with scolding and grounding).

I got a spanking or two in my day, and I was being a little shit, and whole-heartedly believe that I needed a little sting and a scare to learn me somethin'. It doesn't hurt as much as it shames

OTM.

ha Dan admittedly you don't have any kids either.

I think if you grew up w/spankings it doesn't seem like abuse. Like ones that didn't leave bruises or bloody wounds, anyway.

When I was 17 my dad was so frustrated with me that he reverted back to prepubescent-era parenting & whipped his belt off, went into 'spank mode.' And just a reflex, I said, "Jeez, dad, I'm too old to spank! At my age, it's just kinky. What the hell?" And he left the room in shame.

wow.

If you cry, and he beats you for crying, which inevitably makes you cry harder, clearly he just enjoys the beating part.

What this situation says to me is more like, Dad has 0 tools for dealing with kids and things that don't operate rationally, and he is way way over the edge of his patience, and probably not used to being helpless and having no skills to problem-solve or otherwise control the situation and it's making him desperate. The worst part is that it's a cycle -- Dad feels terrible, hates being left in charge of kids, his distaste and helplessness are reinforced every time something doesn't go smoothly, pretty soon Dad transfers the antipathy to the kids themselves, mom can never leave the house unattended again.

We (sibs & I) got lined up and spanked sometimes FOR NO REASON...that I think wld qualify as abuse. But OTOH in this day & age you can't say that shit like 'oh here is a fact: a thing that happened to me By Abbott.' It just comes off as some daytime talkshow confessional, really reverse-voyeuristic. I don't think I am Fucked Up or a Victim bcz of it but when you do share that kind of information people tend to make you into that (not that anyone here is). It really changes some people's perception of you in a way that is totally weird!

xxp I'm hearing "spank mode" in the voice of Kool Keith saying "FREAK MODE."

ha Dan admittedly you don't have any kids either.

Don't jinx me!

ha Dan even if you get a vasectomy...you said something that could be ironically held against you. Watch out!

i certainly don't mean to make you feel that way abbott. i think you should be able to talk about it without feeling like a Victim.

Hah! Abbott, my last spanking was at age 13 -- for some reason, I remember this. They never tried again.

that sounds so ominous...

what did you do to them?

No way, surm, the parenthetical aside abt 'no one here' was mainly meant for you.

When I was 17 my dad was so frustrated with me that he reverted back to prepubescent-era parenting & whipped his belt off, went into 'spank mode.' And just a reflex, I said, "Jeez, dad, I'm too old to spank! At my age, it's just kinky. What the hell?" And he left the room in shame.

Abbott, you're my hero!

Haha, oh no, I did nothing. Except I think they might have felt faintly silly. But then maybe not, I had three younger siblings so parents were still in "small child-rearing" mode.

I got hit a couple of times after that, but not spanked.

Just in case you were wondering why I have so much trouble not flinching when people start getting mad around me. I am actually physically afraid of anger, esp from men -- better at laughing it off now that I understand that in an adult world, in a public place, no one is going to lay a hand on me.

i think i just have memories of being really scared as a child, and being hit, which only made me more scared. i felt like my home wasn't really my home during these times. and i think it's really hard to navigate the line between what's ok and what isn't, when it comes to this sort of punishment. i think that's why i'm really cautious of it.

Laurel I am the same way.

surm, had your parents gotten your respect before the spanking?

I got hit a couple of times after that, but not spanked.

Hit how? Whenever I was spanked, it was a highly ritualized affair, with a talking-to before and after, etc. If I was even just plain hit, it wasn't punishment, it just meant Mom's drunk.

xp, no. that IS an interesting analysis, courtesy of laurel.

If I got hit, it meant my dad was really pissed off, and I had probably done something to make him be that way. I'm not going to say I wasn't maddening. But it's a teenager's job to be maddening.

This is all very interesting. I can't imagine hitting a child, but then I was never hit by my parents, and to me it just feels like something other people do. (Or at least I can't recall being hit -- I do know that I had to be physically restrained at times, like if I was sent to my room and tried to get out, but physical discipline was never part of the punishment itself.)

I can't imagine you personally having to get out of a room enough so that your parents would have to restrain you!

Honestly I think my parents' overzealousness came from their belief that everything we were and turned out to be would be held to their account, partly by the world, but largely also by God. Classic over-management: when you think EVERY SINGLE DETAIL is your responsibility, there's no such thing as relaxing and going, "Oh what the hell. They'll probably turn out fine." If you think that someone's eternal fate & salvation are on the line, you're going to be a little extreme about things.

I don't think my parents spanked me very hard such that it was really painful. I don't think it was much of a deterrent for me. Even at a young age, I realized that this was very temporary. But spanking was definitely presented as an escalation of disciplinary measures, and wasn't arbitrarily delivered. I was well aware that I had done something wrong. I think after spanking the next step was just ignoring me.

Was anyone else ever spanked in school? I got paddled by a teacher fed up with my never sitting still or being quiet far more times than I was spanked by my parents. The principal used to carry a thick wooden paddle with holes drilled in it when she would patrol the halls. It was an accessory, but not always, so I heard.

JESUS CHRIST

i don't understand people sometimes

xp was your school private or public?

Texas Public School District.

laurel otm a lot in this thread

my mum (it was never my dad who hit us) isn't an evil person, she just didn't stop for a second to think about screaming hysterically and namecalling and hitting repeatedly would maybe have a pretty longlasting effect on a kid/person

my problem with hitting kids: i feel like to have any measurable effect, either 'good' or 'bad', that hitting has to be serious, which i'm absolutely against. sure, dan, a light 'tap' or whatever is not gonna fuck a kid up, but i don't see how if it's such an inconsequential touch it's gonna have much other effect either in regards to discipline so what's the point of it in the first place?

there's just so many murky areas in the realm of kid-hitting - how hard/on what part of the body/how many times/how frequently/for what kind of offences - that maybe it should just be forced into black and white and hey let's just not hit kids ever.

xp Notice the date:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/30/education/30punish.html

I can't imagine you personally having to get out of a room enough so that your parents would have to restrain you!

Well, the other example I was thinking of was the opposite, actually -- when I refused to go to school one day, and my dad had to literally drag me out the door and into the car. I'm just trying to say, it's not like my parents never laid a hand on me or anything, but there wasn't any corporal punishment as such.

I'm noticing the correlation between the paddling map and where people voted for George W Bush

When I was 17 my dad was so frustrated with me that he reverted back to prepubescent-era parenting & whipped his belt off, went into 'spank mode.' And just a reflex, I said, "Jeez, dad, I'm too old to spank! At my age, it's just kinky. What the hell?" And he left the room in shame

So classic. When I was very young my father became angry enough with me that he got ready to hit me and I said "Go ahead, hit me, dad! Go ahead" Well, he backed down.

I'm like jaymc - I was never spanked/hit and I can't imagine doing that to a child.

Was anyone else ever spanked in school?

Oh yeah, and when I was a junior in HS none the less. I'd organized and facilitated a hook-out of about 10 friends, not thinking how obvious it would be that we were all gone. The next day we got called in as a group (over the intercom), interrogated and paddled individually. (not hard at all, but it was pretty terrifying - I had never been in that much trouble before, ever).

Part I of an investigation of the Authoritarian personality

That was an xp to the red state comment.

I'm noticing the correlation between the paddling map and where people voted for George W Bush

Well I understand there's more capital punishment in Texas as well...

I never got spanked in school but other kids did, and a substitute teacher tied one of my classmates to his chair because he kept getting up without permission. I distinctly remember feeling like he deserved what he got, as did everybody else who voiced an opinion. I would chalk that up to a fucked up side effect of that kind of discipline - reinforcing to other kids that it's okay to hit/tie up another person as long as that person was somehow asking for it.

xp to Laurel: See also George Lakoff's Moral Politics

xp Oh man, I would have been so lashed to a chair. Every class.

I kinda think its weird that corporal punishment is ONLY allowed to be practiced on children.

They can't really fight back.

I had a teacher push my chair over so I fell on my back and stand over me shaking me and shouting "you violent little shit" at me because I hit someone who stole my ball in PE. I probably could've got him in deep shit if I'd complained about it though. He was a fucking psycho that teacher, he would throttle people for not doing their homework and stuff. There was a rumour he had a plate in his head from a rugby injury.

I kinda think its weird that corporal punishment is ONLY allowed to be practiced on children.

Well... in most western countries.

children are the group with the fewest rights, yes?

xpost

And outside of Guantanamo...

Singapore canes irrespective of age.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/thumb/9/9f/Corporal_Punishment.png/200px-Corporal_Punishment.png

Corporal Punishment

k fine I meant in the country I am posting from and also the countries you are.

It's offensive and presumptuous to presume that corporeal punishment is always abuse and that you always know how to raise other people's children, particularly if you don't have any.

― get money fuck witches (HI DERE), Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:03 PM (1 hour ago

Okay so what bothers me about this is that it seems to assume that the only party in the child-parent relationship that should be allowed to have any say is the parent (ie, the kid gets hit and puts up with it) and any other outside party doesn't have any say because how dare anybody tell a parent how to raise their kids. But the fact that there are many more stakeholders in this relationship is why we have things like child protection services. But hello there these services don't decide for themselves what constitutes abuse but reflect the attitudes of society at large which is why we would not be having this conversation in Spain or Finland or any of the other countries where corporal punishment against children is not allowed.

Was anyone else ever spanked in school? I got paddled by a teacher fed up with my never sitting still or being quiet far more times than I was spanked by my parents. The principal used to carry a thick wooden paddle with holes drilled in it when she would patrol the halls. It was an accessory, but not always, so I heard.

Texas Public School District.

hay wait, that was a King of the Hill episode !

Okay so what bothers me about this is that it seems to assume that the only party in the child-parent relationship that should be allowed to have any say is the parent (ie, the kid gets hit and puts up with it) and any other outside party doesn't have any say because how dare anybody tell a parent how to raise their kids. But the fact that there are many more stakeholders in this relationship is why we have things like child protection services. But hello there these services don't decide for themselves what constitutes abuse but reflect the attitudes of society at large which is why we would not be having this conversation in Spain or Finland or any of the other countries where corporal punishment against children is not allowed.

Are you just ignoring the absolutes in my statement so that you can make your point or did you not notice them?

sort of related but i had the conversation in the pub earlier with two colleagues, both parents, about whether paedophiles should be killed (if not also tortured etc.) and they were both pro this trotting out the old "when you have kids you'll understand" line.

okay so ur point only refers to abstract absolutes and cannot be argued with even though it is totally reasonable for you to shoot down anybody without kids having an opinion on what is reasonable parenting here:

yeah i don't believe in hitting a kid, with anything.

― surm, Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:58 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's just a really fucking lazy way of parenting.

― surm, Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:59 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, I strongly disagree with that and find that entire line of thought presumptuous, self-righteous and offensive.

― get money fuck witches (HI DERE), Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:08 PM (3 hours ago)

But the fact that there are many more stakeholders in this relationship is why we have things like child protection services. But hello there these services don't decide for themselves what constitutes abuse but reflect the attitudes of society at large which is why we would not be having this conversation in Spain or Finland or any of the other countries where corporal punishment against children is not allowed.

It's a matter of debate whether laws define or are defined by social attitudes. But one thing's for sure: recent child abuse cases in the UK have a distinct whiff of scapegoating child protection services in order to protect an endemic social immorality that is too difficult to face up to.

xxxxp

My point refers to a black and white, absolutist value judgment that is not actually backed up by scientific studies of parenting, which basically state that good and bad child-rearing have absolutely nothing to do with corporal punishment and that it is possible to be a good parent and spank your children.

I don't make a judgment about corporal punishment one way or the other; I think it can help you raise a child but it could also cause you to lose control of your child, much like anything else you do. The big constant I can see with child-rearing is establishing your authority and being consistent in your rules and their enforcement. Everything seems to stem from that; there's no "magic bullet" that says not beating your kids automagically makes you a good parent.

It's offensive and presumptuous to presume that corporeal punishment is always abuse and that you always know how to raise other people's children, particularly if you don't have any.

― get money fuck witches (HI DERE), Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:03 PM (1 hour ago

Are you just ignoring the absolutes in my statement so that you can make your point or did you not notice them?

― get money fuck witches (HI DERE), Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:08 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

unless you can explain why (and to whom) it's offensive to presume that corporeal punishment is always abuse, you're just being a knob that deserves a damn good spanking

"I don't make a judgment about corporal punishment one way or the other"

except that it's offensive for someone else to do so

lol @ 'corporeal'

I agree with Dan. I think saying all corporal punishment=abuse sets a dangerously low boundary for abuse.

It's offensive to good parents who spank or have spanked their children. I didn't think that would actually be very difficult to figure out but I forget who posts here sometimes.

Dan's view on spanking revealed:

oh no! SPANKING VIDEO GAME POLL! oh no!

"when you have kids you'll understand"

understanding /= agreeing but basically fuck yeah blueski shut yr trap

I agree with Dan. I think saying all corporal punishment=abuse sets a dangerously low boundary for abuse.

although it's already been mentioned upthread that there are lots of other forms of abuse that don't involve hitting, whacking, spanking, lamping, slapping, whatever you want to call it, so i don't see why the boundary is so low.

for me the problem is that hitting (or whatever it's called) is used as corrective action.

also it just seems really unfair

Yeah, but would you include slapping a kid's hand in the definition of corporal punishment? The view that any physical punishment is abusive just strikes me as too extreme to take into account human nature. Partly that of kids, and what kids respond to, but also parents. The parenting trend that has continued to bother me is this expectation that parents are supposed to be perfect ... that suddenly upon reproducing, your average human being is supposed to become a saint.

would you include slapping a kid's hand in the definition of corporal punishment?

yes if it was planned and/or if the person slapping was exercising their own need to get their slapping rocks off.
no if the kid was going to put their hand in a fire.

I dunno, my mom used to threaten us when we went into stores with fragile stuff in them, "Touch anything, and I'll break your arm." At least one person overheard her and turned to us in horror...we never took the threat literally for a SECOND. (Although we still laugh about the horrified onlooker.)

I guess when you're loved & well cared for, being swatted around a bit in general is pretty forgiveable. The part where my dad broke things in anger was probably much scarier even thought he didn't hit (or spank) us in that state.

i'm not gonna pass judgment on anyone who gives their kid a tap or whatever - my concern is with ppl who don't know/care about the line that crosses into abuse. hundreds of times i've seen kids hit pretty hard in public, in a way that humiliates them to the extreme, and it's painful to watch - i've myself felt blush in embarrassment for them and had to look away.

my mother raised me like i was something she got saddled with but felt a responsibility for (which was essentially the case), which meant dishing out punishment pretty lavishly, and not much of the 'loved and well cared for' stuff that laurel mentions. she fed and clothed me and put a roof over my head and taught me manners and all those basics but that was really about it, and corporal punishment sure as hell didn't make me a better person, i can tell you that right now.

It's offensive to good parents who spank or have spanked their children. I didn't think that would actually be very difficult to figure out but I forget who posts here sometimes.

― get money fuck witches (HI DERE), Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:27 PM (Yesterday)

Yo!

I believe I spanked Sarah 2 or 3 times.

Christ, this thread has made for some uncomfortable reading.

I was spanked repeatedly as a child - slippers or shoes being the usual weapon - often for reasons I didn't entirely understand or thought were unjust (getting a grade less than an A?)

It didn't help that my mum was basically an untreated bipolar for most of my life. I think her spanking furies were a lot more to do with her own mental illness than any of my behaviour, and actually served to make me a lot worse, as I responded by becoming first uncontrollable, and then taking the punnishment upon myself, self harm, that kind of thing - basically a way of saying "YOU CAN'T HURT ME BECAUSE I CAN HURT MYSELF WORSE".

I think it taught me to respond to frustration with violence and anger, a pattern I've spent the rest of my life trying (not always successfully) to change.

As a result, I'm 100% against spanking in any situation, ever. Your mileage may vary.

If Cosmo or Bob do something bad, or dangerous, they got a bop on the nose and a terse, firm "NO", and they don't do it again. But they're cats.

get not got.

atm i could never think of spanking my daughter but she's only 14 months. i have tapped her on the hand and said no, almost as reflex. i got the belt and it wasnt so traumatic or confusing as all that for me, you act willfully bad you get hit (that's key though, outside of that it's child abuse afaic) but that stuff def. needs to stay in the past.

we had to wait 3-4 weeks after our transgressions to be 'physically chastised', as our dad nearly always worked away. kinda hard to tie pavlov in with that...

wasn't ever given more than a slap on the arse or arm by my dad as i recall, though he did take the belt to my older brother once (fully deserved, both at the time and looking back). It was always when we'd crossed the line, as four boys with 5 years between them will tend to do at times.

mum would tend to take pokers/wooden spoons/etc into play when drunk, and it generally wouldn't be tied to any particular act, you'd maybe just wake up getting thumped.

i'm pretty comfortable with the idea that there are two kinds of corporal punishment, depending on how it's used in your parenting toolbox.

it seems like this conversation has gotten wrapped up in terminology, and an idea of snap judgments. abuse or not, good parenting or not, i don't think it's any surprise that there are strong opinions surrounding this issue. stripping any sort of character judgments away from it, it's not unreasonable for someone to hold the opinion that physical punishment is not right. whether or not you're a parent, believing this is not inherently offensive. parents disagree on child-rearing practices in many different arenas, and this shouldn't have to lend itself to character attacks.

Don't whine about character attacks after you've started them.

eh, i didn't really. believing that this act is lazy or ineffective doesn't have to be taken as a character attack (or whatever you called it -- presumptuous, self-righteous, whatever). i think you're being sensitive here, and insulting. the belief that this punishment is a negative practice doesn't have to be taken so personally.

Surm attacked the action, not any person. Acts are not people. You can perform lazy and stupid acts without being a lazy and stupid person generally.
xpost

really, i think the only problem here is the word "abuse," which i regret using. it spurs a lot of controversy as a rule. but hell if i can't believe that hitting your kid is a lazy way of teaching them without being called self-righteous.

i just want to slap parents that take kids to restaurants, tbh.

dude stop dining at Clowny McSpoons

i got rights too you bastard

i think most kids grew up in hong kong before the 90s (at least) probably all have been whipped by one of these at some point
http://www.kongyuet.com/picture/product%20picture/P146.JPG

it bloody hurts but guess wasn't very humiliating as all kids get it.

ut hello there these services don't decide for themselves what constitutes abuse but reflect the attitudes of society at large which is why we would not be having this conversation in Spain or Finland or any of the other countries where corporal punishment against children is not allowed.

The news that corporal punishment "is not allowed in Spain" would come as news to a few of my Spanish cousins.

Apparently I know, right, surm, whatever, and a couple of others in the anti-spanking crowd assume that advocates of spanking use belts, coat hangers, and other Joan Crawford instruments of death to get a sadistic kick out of it instead of using the back of the hand administered sparingly and as just ANOTHER METHOD, as has been said on this thread many times. Get some fucking perspective, people, and stop using words like "always," as in, "corporeal punishment is always abuse."

you should call them and tell them then

http://www.plan.fi/toiminnot/english/current-affairs/view/article/corporal-punishment-ban-secured-in-spain/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=1520&cHash=97d309fbc2

uh please don't use physical pain to make children learn seems like a pretty okay thing to say, as long as you wouldn't use it on anyone else it seems pretty unfair to use it on someone smaller and weaker.

cesar millan to thread

anyway, that's all I really want to say on this so you can label me some shrill abuse shouter if you want, but that's not what I said.

uh please don't use physical pain to make children learn seems like a pretty okay thing to say, as long as you wouldn't use it on anyone else it seems pretty unfair to use it on someone smaller and weaker.

The revolution in child psychology in the 100 years is to stop thinking of children as "little adults," so if you think reasoning with a child is the same as talking to an adult then maybe you need the slap in the rump.

by the way, the slaps on the arm or butt my parents occasionally gave me only seemed painful at the time; it's the shame in getting punished by their parents in the first place that really burns. In that sense light spanking is proximate to getting scolded in a restaurant for embarrassing/rude behavior.

Apparently I know, right, surm, whatever, and a couple of others in the anti-spanking crowd assume that advocates of spanking use belts, coat hangers, and other Joan Crawford instruments of death to get a sadistic kick out of it instead of using the back of the hand administered sparingly and as just ANOTHER METHOD, as has been said on this thread many times. Get some fucking perspective, people, and stop using words like "always," as in, "corporeal punishment is always abuse."

― My name is Kenny! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 26 June 2009 12:05 (1 hour ago) Permalink

oh get off it alfred. if your parents spanked your tush sparingly and with good judgment, good for you and them. i'm glad you're a better person for it. it is possible for someone not to agree with the larger trend, seeing as it's a tough balance to control, and not be a social services spokesperson.

are we saying that some parents hit their children and some don't and sometimes things turn out okay in both cases?

Yes.

Yes.

Maybe this thread should be renamed "do you lose respect for people when they hit their kids" ?

Little children, like kittens, can not always have things explained to them in fine detail, like "do not touch the hob in case its on and you burn yourself", or "do not run into the road lest a car destroy you" etc. A slap on the legs and an admonishing "no" works as deterrent. Beating fuck out of a baby is not corporal punishment. It's beating fuck out of a baby.

"Do you lose respect for people who think that any kind of punishment for children at all is some kind of crime against society".

Maybe this thread should be renamed "do you lose respect for people when they hit their kids meet their friends read their posts."

When YOU read their posts, obv. Whatevs, you get the idea.

sorry to be off topic but..

should we not lose respect for people when they show (a sustained level of) weakness? not sure about unhappiness but if someone is incapable of helping themselves due to e.g. emotional weakness, what happens? I guess respect in that particular area of strenth will reduce? and depends if there was any respects in the first place?

Surprised by the amount of feeling on this issue really. Seems straightforward: a) Ideally don't hit your kids, b) in the real world on rare occasions you need to, c) don't make it a habit as it could be a slippery slope. At the end of the day, using force to get your own way isn't a great lesson and it is right that these things no longer happen in schools (at least in Britain). Beating kids with actual objects is outrageous and should of course be banned, but I don't think anyone has particularly defended that.

I wonder though if people get defensive on this issue because their parents hit them when they were young, so they feel criticism of spanking = implied criticism of their own parents or even of themselves.

Little children, like kittens, can not always have things explained to them in fine detail, like "do not touch the hob in case its on and you burn yourself",

the punishment should be to let them touch it when it's on and learn the consequence directly

Ken - I think I interpreted the original question to mean ocassional bouts of saddness or weakness. The person in question in your post would be another situation entirely.

as long as we're clear that kittens CAN sometimes have things explained to them in fine detail

I wonder though if people get defensive on this issue because their parents hit them when they were young, so they feel criticism of spanking = implied criticism of their own parents or even of themselves.

I'm certain that this is the reason for mine own strong emotions about the issue, so I wouldn't be surprised if "my parents hit me and I'm fine" produced just as strong emotions.

the punishment should be to let them touch it when it's on and learn the consequence directly

So we're replacing one example of corrective pain with another?

ears are wounds, you are otmfm

at the end of the day, using force to get your own way

Punishing a child for shoplifting or misbehaving in public is an example of a parent wanting to "get his own way"?

abolish armies, disarm the police.

xpost well yeah. "don't touch flame because flames are hot and hurts me" is a better lesson to learn than "don't touch flame because daddy will hit me"

punishment for shoplifting is obv to nick loads of their stuff to pay for what they stole.

or just congratulate the kid on not getting caught

obviously if they didn't get caught there's no need for punishment. valuable life lesson right there for them.

alfred, it seems like you are resistant to the idea of any objection whatsoever to the use of physical force on children, even with the stipulation that sometimes, it can turn out ok

xpost well yeah. "don't touch flame because flames are hot and hurts me" is a better lesson to learn than "don't touch flame because daddy will hit me"

False dichotomy. Good parents explain consequences of rash actions. In my case my parents never laid a finger on me if I got hurt after doing something wrong -- it was punishment enough.

alfred, it seems like you are resistant to the idea of any objection whatsoever to the use of physical force on children, even with the stipulation that sometimes, it can turn out ok

That's a much more reasonable position than what I've read in the last 24 hours here, when words like "abusive" and parents wanting to "get their own way" have been hurled.

Sure. The parent is exercising their authority (or exerting their will) over the child. I don't think it is complicated.

I though my post was pretyy reasonable.

errr...."I thought my post was pretty reasonable"

what should the punishment be for parents who hit their children? i suggest the naughty step.

i hope none of you ever have children.

fer serious

If you want me to change the sentence I could: "using force to assert your authority isn't a great lesson"; "using force to exert your will isn't a great lesson" etc. It is the same thing, right? You're splitting hairs, when if you were to read my post I was essentially agreeing with you.

need to hear from the parents that exist out there, with a poll for number of punishment beatings administered per week.

force to assert your authority isn't a great lesson

everybody accepts this. there are no fans of slapping on the thread.

that said, have you ever had to reason with a 3 year old with a water pistol?

hahaha

as long as we're clear that kittens CAN sometimes have things explained to them in fine detail

Bob took my explanation of mortality re; Jacko very well.

If you want me to change the sentence I could: "using force to assert your authority isn't a great lesson"; "using force to exert your will isn't a great lesson" etc.

But "exert your will" sounds closer to "exerting your will for capricious reasons," as in, "If you don't bring me the TV remote, I will swat you across the head."

xpost to darraghmac

Well no I was directly addressing Alfred, who seemed to object to my use of the phrase "get your own way". But yeah if you read my original post I said in the real world probably you will need to use force on a child at some point; it is completely understandable and unavoidable. And I don't know some people do seem to be fans of slapping on this thread.

you said it!

I'd use The Force on my kids. "These aren't the sweets you're looking for; eat these apples instead" kind of thing.

xpost to Alfred

no it doesn't - you just added "for capricious reasons" to the sentence. I never implied that at any point/

Foucault to thread.

It isn't a good idea to exert your will via force for any reason if you can help it, surely?

some people beat their kids for exercise, others would applaud their kids all the way to the electric chair. can we maybe leave these extremes out of it, though?

anyway, - physical persuasion of other people's brats, that's the topic we need to cover before 5pm

You try managing a house full of children all day, who can dump buckets of stuff out and break things and make each other cry faster than you can spill a quart of milk. See if you don't swat a couple of them. Besides, you only have to shoot the first one.

Ah, forget it. You try and come down on a reasonable, halfway house position and people still want to put you wholly in one camp or the other. I don't know...

i think you were reasonable <3

cheers!

me too!

When my daughter drags herself out of bed I'll ask her if the 2 or 3 spankings I gave her ruined her life, and report her answer here.

I wasn't trying to push you out to a margin, but I think that when you accept something as inevitable in the real world, then trying to paint theoretical opposition to it as equally valid is a bit inconsistent. Don't think you've been unreasonable or anything though.

You try managing a house full of children all day, who can dump buckets of stuff out and break things and make each other cry faster than you can spill a quart of milk. See if you don't swat a couple of them. Besides, you only have to shoot the first one.

― But not someone who should be dead anyway (Laurel), Friday, 26 June 2009 14:51 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok beating them i can tolerate but to SHOOT them????? OMG

When my daughter drags herself out of bed I'll ask her if the 2 or 3 spankings I gave her ruined her life, and report her answer here.

make sure she is aware beforehand the consequence of an unsatisfactory answer

it's a slippery slope xp

Better yet, kick her off the bed so she can see what happens if she moves too fast.

Like, if she never admits that she might have contributed to things going wrong, she can stay a victim and never do the work of changing or growing up.

I broke up with a friend because of this but only after years of throwing emotional, financial, and logistical support down the bottomless pit of her unexamined despair. It's been years and I still get furious at her when I think about it (especially because I still run into her in various on-line places and she has not changed one iota and people that were our mutual friends are still making regular deposits into her First Personal Bank of Suck).

agh i am having such issues with a friend who i really think is great and smart and means well, but i've just been getting more and more impatient with how he doesn't see how he keeps creating unhappiness after unhappiness and not breaking the pattern despite being aware of it.

i'm certainly losing respect for him because of it and because of how it drags me down too - i mean, that's not what friendship is about to me. sure it's not all roses and lalala but, damn, i'm a (happily) busy person and i like feeling good/stimulated/excited about life and possibilities, but to be spending time/energy on someone like this has begun to seem ridiculous and not-me.

we had a surprising blow out yesterday and i couldn't hold my tongue any longer and felt backed into a corner, so ended up, in frustration, basically calling him self-absorbed/self-interested. which he got pissed at. so today i find myself worried and apologizing (yet to receive response) - not because i want to be absolved but because i want him to feel better and not be full of anger and ill-will (and therefore continued unhappiness.) of course, i cannot control these things, but that's a hard one to reconcile...

(hi guys)

hi rrrobyn! :D

OMG HI!!!

:-)

I've missed you.

hi! i wish that friend troubles weren't the reason for me popping back up on ilx! it is kind of lols. i have also been missing y'all and wld like to hang out here more again :)

hi rrrobyn

I'm the opposite--I actually gain respect for them. But my sister completely freezes these people out.

i've got a friend like that. he's deep in this pit of despair to the point that whenever other people have problems that are really super-serious, like heartbreaking troubles, he can't empathize with them because he feels as though his troubles (which boil down to, "i am really super-depressed and it manifests itself in me being super-depressing to be around, oh why can't i meet a girl who will fix me, every girl i meet doesn't want to be around me for some reason.") are so much worse than troubles anyone else might have and he doesn't know why his friends aren't hanging out with him as much these days.

it gets to the point where i'll be out to breakfast with him and he will just stare glumly at his plate and not even look at the server who comes to take our order, and he'll just speak softly and mutter into his lap, "french toast, i guess..." and the server can't hear him and he'll either speak up too loudly, almost rudely, or i'll have to tell the server what he wanted.

Rrrrrrrrrobyn, I am barely holding back from calling out person as self-absorbed/self-centered. She IS, though, and I've suggested that maybe she'd be happier if she framed some things as being about other people and just reached out to her friends, and her response is always, "Why would I want to do THAT??" So I've stopped trying.

Omar, that person sounds INFURIATING.

he drives me nuts. he's an excellent dude (and a vv good cook, which is a skill that would be attractive to women imo), but his overall excellence is trumped by the fact that he's basically an IRL eeyore.

he's caught up in this circle where his depression feeds itself and can't see a way to get out of it. i've told him (and this is easier said than done) that he should just get some therapy or go on medication if he's feeling that low and can't help himself in any way, but he waves it off.

I have known someone like this. I know it looks like a bigtime dead end, and I don't know what to suggest. In my experience, shit got a lot worse before it got better, which made the depressive times seem kind of minor in comparison...but when shit FINALLY got better, it just got better and better and better. I mean, there IS life after moping, but ya gotta CHOOSE it, as you know (and yr friend refuses to admit).

Yeah after a certain point w/IRL Eeyores (and I was one at age 17!) it's like, "eh, you're on your own with all this."

I mean as far as coming up with a solution.

when i've gone out with him i almost feel as though i have to defer to and respect his depressive state rather than try to drag him up into a good mood, if that makes any sense. he's so resistant to the notion that his problems aren't all that bad and are in fact completely common. but they're made worse by his state. he doesn't actually live in l.a., he lives on the east coast, but he comes out here pretty often. i think the fact he works at home doesn't help either, tbh.

I am loving the phrase "real-life Eeyore".

I suggest bullying him into having fun, as long as he's going to be willfully mopey. I have this feeling that if you treat the depression/self-pity as something to be respected, it might just reinforce his projection of it as SERIOUS and UNAVOIDABLE.

I don't mean bully him meanly, but like, a bit of games-mistress heartiness, like "RIGHT, GET IN THAT RESTAURANT AND SIT DOWN AND I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANY MORE COMPLAINTS."

<3

I mean, you can be sad or happy, but if your friends invite you out and you want to continue to have friends, you'd better at least contribute something.

If you want the kind of friends who come over for a contemplative tea once in a while and otherwise leave you in mopey solitude so you can pretend the world revolves around your troubles, move to the countryside.

or become a goth

When I was depressioed it was so GREAT when friends invited me out! And I figured the best course of action was just not to say anything but to be glad for a change of scenery. And it's amazing how much that works, just being around people you like, even if you aren't in a place to interface with any social graces.

agreed 100%

Yeah! I mean, I'm not saying you should FAKE it and not tell anyone if something is really wrong! But when it's just a bit of "can't get out of own head" stuff, you might as well be open to a little lightness and perspective where you can find it.

of course you can't be like, 'hey maybe it'd cheer you up to come to lunch w/the three of us – but don't say anything, bcz yr a real downer."

lol!

but yeah, this kind of behaviour (esp when escalated to a fight) bewilders me and kind of puts me in a state of shock, but i always think, well, maybe i have something to learn from this, maybe putting myself in their place is a good thing in the great scheme of things, maybe it's humbling and helpful to being a whole, emphathetic person?

but while at such points feeling "bad at emotions" (despite these situations causing me to feel physically ill and sad and frustrated), i then also think: how can i do all the things i want to do in life, most of which are about trying to change the world (small steps but yknow), tbh, when energy gets sucked away by individuals who appear not to be interested in what i consider to be the most important, overarching issue? which is not one's constant state of hurt but how to see everything as out to get us - how does that attitude create anything new or beautiful or move anything forward? so i am often left with "but don't you see??" in my head yet unable to express it because, really, it sounds like a different language to those who are stuck in these particular patterns. (which is not to say that i don't have issues and patterns! don't we all?) blaargh.

(it is also kind of annoying because i have soooo much work to do and this is distracting me. and i he's gonna be like, let's hug, it's fine, etc. and that is a cycle i'm not so interested in but find hard to extricate self from...)

(i forgot to edit that 2nd paragraph re: how constant state of hurt is also about how everything appears out to get you when in that state, how it doesn't exactly help to see the world that way)

Yeah!! I just can't stand the small-mindedness, sometimes. I know, for people who don't know me in RL, that I'm a big bitch on ILX but it's cos I have to sit at a desk all day without a lot of exercise for my brain, we all know that, right?

But the truly paranoid, and those who hamstring themselves and deny it...and then complain and complain bitterly about how they can't get ahead...everyone is stealing their ideas...no one is as good as them, or as pretty, or as "cool"...yet they don't do anything to BE good, or pretty, or cool...it's not INHERENT, you know. It's earned, everything people believe about you has to be EARNED.

I mean good or bad!

You're a big bitch on ILX? This is not true, no joeks.

oh thank god for you laurels and ilx and my friends who help me see the light on this one!

Rrrobyn, Omar etc: I have spent the last year battling my way out of clinical depression. At its nadir, I was the "real-life Eeyore" whom you describe. It is only in retrospect that I can be a bit lighthearted about my desperate state b/c CD is a thing which consumes you so gradually that, by the time your disposition reaches such a comical level, you don't possess the wherewithal to laugh at yourself b/c of your state of complete resignation. And yeah, the self-absorption gets totally ridic b/c such is your emotional disconnect that it almost completely clouds your ability to empathize with anything or anyone. When CD gets to this point, it becomes a sharp paradox that becomes especially difficult to navigate your way out of: you NEED to acknowledge that your problem is MEDICAL, FIXABLE & NOT something you can repair or find your way out of by yourself, but such is your level of apathy/self-loathing that you're just going to be cynical and fatalistic about the possibility of betterment.

You or someone else need to firmly impress upon your friends that they need to see a doctor & be persistent about recovery. If their experience is anything like mine, once they take a tiny step toward fixing the problem & get a taste of psychological normalcy (a relative term, admittedly), the motivation for taking the appropriate steps to get back on one's feet pretty much takes care of itself. I wish someone in my life had intervened forcibly much earlier on, but I was so reclusive and such a miserable bastard that I made it especially hard for them to do so. What I wouldn't give to have the last three or four years of my life back, especially now that I am aware that the whole time, the problem was a simple, correctable chemical imbalance & not some inherent personality flaw.

i feel like it is at least partly that, yes! and he knows it! but this is also part of why the fight of yesterday happened - because i suggested, as i have done before, kindly, not in any holier-than-thou or this'll-solve-all-yr-problems way, that he was all wrapped up in his issues/himself and that he should talk to a professional to gain perspective on it, maybe take meds if it comes to that. which he shot down due to issues of money and time and etc. it makes it hard to remain friends with someone who has potential to be so amazing yet won't/can't seek the solutions that are out there. sigh.

yeah my friend has shot down many efforts at tough love, but i think there's hope if only because i think when he comes out to the west coast he has a better time (he's from here and seems to be in a better mood here, despite it still being a miserable mood), and it always cheers him to know that several female friends of mine have spoken of him in, "hey if only he lived here i'd go out with that guy," which i think makes him feel a little better (while still looking at it darkly, cf. "well by the time i move there they'll all have boyfriends...."

xpost: It took two years of my girlfriend impressing on me that I needed to see a doctor before I actually did it. Yes, it was really silly of me not to have done so earlier than I did, but when you're a bit arrogant & thick-headed to start, it is all the more difficult to suss out "admitting weakness" from "curing an illness." In hindsight, it seems as ridiculous as refusing surgery for appendicitis or something, its just that the emotional component makes it seem more complex than it actually, likely is. Good luck, at any rate. Don't give up on your friend! (lol I have now become an advocate for miserable bastards everywhere)

I knnowww, I knnooooowwwwww. Medical help is a big problem w/o insurance, and medical studies w free anti-depressants did more harm than good b/c none of them really had the patient's interests at heart. It's tough. The turning point is obv different for everyone, and it's SO COMPLETELY just up to them to perceive it.

I just tried to be a good example at enjoying life and doing stuff, you know? Hand-holding will only get you so far, even if you do it to the Nth degree.

xpost to Omar - Just to underline this cold, clinical fact: If your friend's problem is rooted in a chemical imbalance, there will likely be no change of scenery that can itself fix the problem. You need to start by addressing the serotonin issue & then leverage that into the whole lifestyle, setting, diet, exercise assortment of possible long-term adjustments. It is a pretty tried & true matter of course & vastly less complicated than trying to "fix yourself" from scratch. Just sayin..

Laural: money/insurance was also an issue for me & I HATE asking for charity, & the worse off I became, the less money I was making, so yeah.. it is a slippery slope. Family is key here. If there is anyone who can help pony up for the expenses, of course it would be a worthwhile investment. Medicaid is also available for such things, I believe, although, admittedly, it would likely be a bureaucratic nightmare. Socialize medicine people! A move to Canada perhaps?...

rrrobyn, omar, et al. You're awesome friends. I wish that when I was seriously depressed that I had someone to encourage me to "get better." Most of my friends just pretended it wasn't there, and when I was miserable to be around, they weren't around. I think encouragement to get out and have "external stimulus" is important. In retrospect, sometimes it did me good, and sometimes it just reinforced the depression. I don't know whether it's different for people who "get it" at some point during adulthood vs. people who "get it" once they hit adolescence (like me), and thus, end up equating "normal" with being a dumb kid who doesn't "know any better." I do remember that I truly believed that I knew what was really going on and how things/people worked, what they really were (I wasn't bipolar/schizo, so I didn't believe that they were really alien lizard creatures disguised as people) and the normal people just didn't know, that they were somehow delusional. But also, that their delusions were healthy, and my "real knowledge" was dysfunctional.

By the time I finally got on medication, I'd been clinically depressed for half my life. But, what Pillbox said, it's a chemical thing, and once the chemical balance gets normalized, the need for behavioral changes are obvious to the person. However, that also takes time, depending on how ingrained the previous patterns were.

Most of my friends just pretended it wasn't there, and when I was miserable to be around, they weren't around. - yes, such trials certainly do put into stark relief who genuinely has your back in life. Also, this goes back to the original thread question: if emotions make you uncomfortable, being around someone w/ CD is really going to make you squirm. So I really don't blame a lot of my friends for backing off b/c they really just didn't understand what was happening. And yeah, you guys are awesome for sticking it out w/ yr crew!

Sometimes it kinda helps that I'm a complete retard, I've had a few friends in the past that were, you know, not waving but drowning and all their other friends were freaking out and not dealing but by sheer dint of not really realising things have really escalated that badly, I can be pretty okay with people, I think.

I think part of it, is that the friends get to a point where they feel helpless, like there isn't really anything they can do - that it's really up to the depressed person to make the effort to take care of themselves. I finally got on meds when I had a majorly stressful thing happen and I literally couldn't sleep more than 3 hours straight, and when I was awake all I'd do was alternate between anxious worrying and imagining how that thing was going to make my life even worse.

yall i feel for u and ur friends, i think u should all treat yrselves to something nice tonight, like a good dinner, cuz life is hard, and u deserve nice things

<3 u max

xp Laurel - yeah the health insurance thing - that is, not having it - is hard. I was fortunate that my parents were paying for mine, largely because my mom had this major "what if you get pregnant?" anxiety. Seriously, when I was in college, and I would act like something was wrong when my mom called, her first response was always, "You're not pregnant, are you?" It really stung during the period I was depressed I didn't have a boyfriend.

my best friend is basically the most depressio person i've met - so negative and poor-me all the time, but she redeems herself by being also the funniest person i know, and flies in the face of most depressio stereotypes by always having time to listen to my problems, and always being super supportive of whatever good shit is happening to me.

i mean, there have been times when i've just felt drained by being her friend... but then i remember how 3yrs ago when she was at absolute rock bottom and pretty fucked up, she let me come live with her, share her tiny tiny room and bed for 3 months after i broke up with my ex and had to move out and was myself a total wreck, and she still managed to emotionally support me through one of the hardest times in my own life (and not the first time she's been there for me in such an urgent way) so i'm in it for life with her, no matter how miserable-bastardy she gets.

there will be a quiz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tG75lZQHZQ

pretty much at the point of giving up on this friendship as it currently exists (too much). or just needing a serious break.
feel a bit like a weak jerk for thinking that but the whole thing is making me not be me. and tnose who know me here know i'm not a jerk lacking empathy, for real, but i am a survivalist, tbh, and i don't like being dragged down (or, for that matter, dragging anyone else down!) but might have to just cut ties on this one for a while as it's basically pummeling my psyche and i kinda need all that for, yknow, living (and slow return to ilx, haha)

i wish you the best of luck, rrrrobyn! eat smoked meat sandwiches to help your brain.

Yay, rrrrobyn is coming back!

Why did you leave? People we thought were our friends always leave ILX, no matter what we say or do, it's like we're not good enough for them, ILX is so lonely all the time. Sigh.