Tall Asians: C or D?

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Frankly, I'm not sure how I feel about them.

Yao Ming...my brother's friend. They kinda freak me out.

― aNatheMa (aNatheMa), Saturday, 24 April 2004 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I knew one. He had a deep voice. All the girls liked him. I didn't care.

― Aja (aja), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh hang on. Asian = Oriental or Asian = sub-continent?

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i'm just gonna sit back and enjoy seeing how this one plays out.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Wise.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I hear Maradona is actually 6ft 5, he just hides it well.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Asians drive like this . . .

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Only because they're so tall.

― Sick Nouthall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Asians be driving!

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought I read that the height difference was actually dietary not genetic.

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

http://espn.starwave.com/media/nba/2004/0422/photo/a_ming_vi.jpg

Yao looking like the Angel muppet from a couple of months ago.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Saturday, 24 April 2004 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

My wife is a tall Asian, and I love her.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 24 April 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

And having met her, I can say she is tres cool!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 24 April 2004 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Tall Asian is 5'10" surely???

― sLeeeter kinney (Leee), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

(say yes)

― sLeeeter kinney (Leee), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

This is the greatest thing I've read all day:

I knew one. He had a deep voice. All the girls liked him. I didn't care.

-- Aja (AsiaKitty200...), April 24th, 2004.

― Molly P., Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I hear Maradona is actually 6ft 5, he just hides it well.

Did someone relocate Argentina when I wasn't looking?

― ailsa (ailsa), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Asia is pretty big continent and heavily populated with a lot people and pretty diverse set of racial characteristics. Y'all know this right?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

No Alex I had no idea! I thought they were all from Thailand!

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

See that's just not true, John.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I think technically I'm Asian. Is 5'11" tall?

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Technically no.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 24 April 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah good, I'm exempt from being C/D. Er, if I'm technically Asian.

This thread is hurting my braaaaain.

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Saturday, 24 April 2004 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

6'1" here...

― ModJ (ModJ), Sunday, 25 April 2004 00:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I see tall Asians all the time. I also see short Asians all the time.

How am I to draw blanket conclusions?

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Through canny use of racisim, natch.

― ModJ (ModJ), Sunday, 25 April 2004 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, racism. Is there anything it can't do?

― Sym (shmuel), Sunday, 25 April 2004 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

It can't stop threads like this? *sigh*

― Trayce (trayce), Sunday, 25 April 2004 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I see tall Asians all the time.

You do not! This thread may be racist, but arguing against sterotypes in the face of facts is dishonest.

― Verbal (Verbal), Sunday, 25 April 2004 02:18 (twenty-two years ago)

You're right.

The tall Asians I see aren't Asians at all. They can't be.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

A racist statement: mean height in China (for example) is lower than mean height in the United States.

― Dan I., Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't even get me started about how racist it would be if you were to say that most Native Americans have type O blood! OMG!

― Dan I., Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Many Icelanders have blonde hair!? You horrible bigot!

― Dan I., Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Uh, there's a clear difference between "generally people from Asia are shorter than people from North America" and "HOLY SHIT THAT TALL ASIAN FREAKED ME OUT"

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

That's true.

― Dan I., Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I've seen lot of Asians in my time. A lot. Lived in the Asian part of Houston, even, which was bad because there were Asian gangs, which, make no mistake, were every ounce as bad as any gang you've ever heard of. I've been friends with Asians, at times best friends. Had Asians over for dinner more times than I can count. I've been around Asians in one way or another for a long, long time. And yet, there are very very few of those Asians than I would ever describe as "tall." That's all I'm saying.

― Verbal (Verbal), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, it's more along the lines of "Blacks Without Diabetes: C/D?"

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Argh, Strongo in being very wise non-shocker. I think I'll follow his example now.

― Dan I., Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Blacks Without Diabetes: C/D?"

don't you mean sickle cell anemia?

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: Racism vs Bigotry

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:27 (twenty-two years ago)

don't you mean sickle cell anemia?

A toughie. Could mean colon cancer, could mean heart disease. There's a whole host of things blacks are more likely to get. Just be thankful you're not Native American.

― Verbal (Verbal), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I probably should've gone w/sickle-cell, but I'm pretty sure diabetes is more prevalent in African Americans as well.

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I was referring to genetic predisposition.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040405fa_fact

― teeny (teeny), Sunday, 25 April 2004 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, that study oversampled the elderly. also, fact is that germans are every bit as fat as americans but still an inch taller so then why isn't junk food causing them to shrink in stature.
immigration is the likely culprit. pat buchanan will be blaming american diminutiveness on the foreigners and demanding his wall along the southern border once again. old height studies in the usa were based only on babies born in ohio.

― keith m (keithmcl), Sunday, 25 April 2004 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I just don't quite understand 'Tall Asians: C or D?'

I mean what is that saying. It's not racist, exactly. But it is stupid. Obviously, there are a lot of tall Asians. Are they classic or dud? I have no idea what that means.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 06:17 (twenty-two years ago)

fact is that germans are every bit as fat as americans but still an inch taller so then why isn't junk food causing them to shrink in stature.

44.5% of Americans are obese (BBC) compared to 36.5% of Germans.

actually, that study oversampled the elderly.

Komlos made many studies, broken down by many criteria:

'But recently [Komlos] has scoured his data for people who’ve bucked the national trend. He has subdivided the [USA]’s heights by race, sex, income, and education. He has looked at whites alone, at blacks alone, at people with advanced degrees and those in the highest income bracket. Somewhere in the United States, he thinks, there must be a group that’s both so privileged and so socially insulated that it’s growing taller. He has yet to find one.'

Immigration is not the culprit. American inequality (the only thing growing there) and a culture which does not value good food is the problem.

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 25 April 2004 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"a culture which does not value good food"

Ouch. I didn't realize my 'culture' doesn't value good food.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 08:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm English, and we don't value good food (I love pork scratchings, but COME ON) and we're reasoably tall . . . I think.

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Sunday, 25 April 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

British are the second tallest nation in Europe. And it probably is the English who are the tall ones in the UK. I heard another theory given for the fact that Europeans are getting taller and Americans aren't which had to with universal "free" health provision plus junk food of course.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Sunday, 25 April 2004 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

... and given British food, I'm inclined to believe that the fact the existence of the National Health Service might indeed have something to do with it

― Dadaismus (Dada), Sunday, 25 April 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

It's true. How much does an American hospital charge for a stomach pumping?

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Sunday, 25 April 2004 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ask Courtney Love

― Dadaismus (Dada), Sunday, 25 April 2004 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.planetout.com/images/entertainment/starstruck/love.jpg

Oh, around 300 copies of Nevermind.

― Courtney L0ve (Johnney B), Sunday, 25 April 2004 10:03 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.puroresu.com/wrestlers/photo/baba_inoki.jpg
http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/1922.Ulaanbaatar.jpg
http://www.stevequayle.com/GG.Images/Naseer.Ahmaad.Soomro.Paki.jpg
http://footlightnotes.tripod.com/Chang.JPG

― Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Sunday, 25 April 2004 10:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus, German food is practically inedible, you only like it because you've got a woody for the culture

also, you do not actually know anything about America, please not to act like you do, k thx bye

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

John, German food is mostly pretty good, and Nick does know plenty about America - more than you'd possibly give him credit for, but you won't, which is just as well since he's not looking for validation from you or anyone else in that capacity.

He also lives with a VERY tall Asian.

However the heart attack capital of Britain is Scotland - by a pretty wide margin. There's kinds of deep fry there that haven't even hit the Midwest and the wobbly heifers who live there.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I am so classic, niggaz.

― ModJ (ModJ), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Scotland's good though, right?

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Scotland is awesome.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah I loved the Scottish food

given that my not-terrifically-fat ass just moved from the midwest, where I liveed and worked for nine years, I'd wager that I'm in a better position to judge it than you - but enjoy your strawmen! what fun to opine about things one knows fuck-all about. M.'s opinions on America are invariably constructions made up of equal parts cultural bias and self-aggrandizement.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

J0hn, are you actually denying that people in America eat a lot of over-processed/underinspected/practically unregulated/not very healthy food and that we don't exercise enough in our daily lives? I mean I realize that Momus is a pompous dork, but I've also read Fast Food Nation (amongst other things) and I'd definity say that judging by the amount of fast food we consume, we eat a lot a crap. I also like German food.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i think there's something in kimchee that keeps us from growing over 5'9". german food is gross.

― phil-two (phil-two), Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to point out that very large amounts of Scotland aren't even within easy reach of a chip shop, and it's West Central Scotland that's dragging the rest of the country down.

I have no opinion on German food.

― ailsa (ailsa), Sunday, 25 April 2004 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Naw Alex it's just remarks about "the midwest and the wobbly heifers who live there" made by people who would need help finding the midwest on a map that get me. Also, the sausages that you can buy from (extremely popular!) roadside stands in Germany make Big Macs look like wheatgrass juice are only one tiny bit of evidence that, in fact, "Germany as a culture values good food" no more than anybody else: it's just that the actual culprit is the Modern World, for which America bears only part of the blame; and since Momus isn't comfortable saying "Gosh, this modern world of ours isn't so triffic, is it?" he likes to Chicken Little it all day about America and its evil influence, etc.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Error! Error! Error! Fast Food Nation has been referenced. This thread is over. Run for the hills.

― mouse, Sunday, 25 April 2004 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow...this thread HAS gone on long enough. lol.

― aNatheMa (aNatheMa), Sunday, 25 April 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I was wondering whether I was going to be x-posted. Thank God I wasn't.

― aNatheMa (aNatheMa), Sunday, 25 April 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

America is not the world. Also, this strawman (who makes remarks about "the midwest and the wobbly heifers who live there") is not Momus. And please get over me and address the argument. Honestly, J0hn, people are going to think you're some girl I ditched, who's never going to let the world forget it.

― Momus (Momus), Sunday, 25 April 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, let's go back to the question that instigated this and change it to Tall Oriental Asians (Mainly in China, Mongolia, Japan, Thailand, Phillipines, Vietnam, Korea, Laos, and those sort of places) C/D?

― aNatheMa (aNatheMa), Sunday, 25 April 2004 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus you're so cute when you're prevaricating

what you said:

American inequality (the only thing growing there) and a culture which does not value good food is the problem.

*mwah*

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

John, no offence, but I've earned my Midwest stripes, what with being born and raised there, while you are merely a former incomer who has embarrassed yourself re. not caring to either know or remember this. My family have lived in Minnesota for over 100 years, founded cornerstone-type establishments in far-flung towns etc., so I can find stuff on the map JUST FINE. Some of the human heifers I've seen roaming the Minnesota State Fair through the years are comparable to the bovine ones in the Agriculture buildings, and at least the prizewinning cows don't eat deep-fried Key Lime Pie with a deep-fried cheese curds/corn dog chaser and have an excuse to chew vacantly, open-mouthed. But I also cannot ignore the exponential increase in fat folks over the past decade, inclusive of the people in my family who have Type II diabetes brought on by obesity, purely because they do not regulate their diets and drive EVERYWHERE.

Now, you're from where, exactly? You're right, there's nothing more annoying than some fancy touring musician shouting the odds about your patch because they've lived there for a bit while blithely proclaiming the ignorance of others with much more genuine ties to that place. I really hate it when that happens.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I REALLY want to have a deep fried key lime pie.

― C0L1N B3CK3TT (Colin Beckett), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

me after suzy's post:

http://nihilistdisco.matterwave.net/images/owned-roadkill.jpg

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

note the bulge around my lazy BORN IN INDIANA midsection

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

There's kinds of deep fry there that haven't even hit the Midwest and the wobbly heifers who live there.

Not to further stir this tired "Americans are fat and drive SUV's" argument but that was such an obvious set-up for someone to question your midwest cred.

― bnw (bnw), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:10 (twenty-two years ago)

See also the lead-up inference that Scottish people all live in chip shops eating deep-fried pizzas and mars bars.

― ailsa (ailsa), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

shh ailsa it's gonna turn out that before suzy's people came to minnesota they all lived on Skye or something

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Indiana's the RUST BELT as any Midwesterner will tell you (mind, we still don't know what to do with Michigan). And Baudrillard says St. Paul is the end of the East, whereas Minneapolis is the beginning of the West. BNW, I know I was loading up bait but where I come from you have to use corn if you want to catch crappies.

Also yeah I know it's the Central Belt that needs to be tightened in Scotland, but as far as my family goes you can thank Cromwell some of us are Irish.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I feel threatened by ModJ.

― sLeeeter kinney (Leee), Sunday, 25 April 2004 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, anecdotally, I noticed when I was home this summer that the kids of neighbours ie. people who'd grown up just like me, with parents just like mine, could basically help themselves to any food from the cupboards and fridge any old time whereas me, my sister and everyone who'd been kids even a decade before always had to ask before we touched anything in the kitchen, with HUGE recriminations if we took anything without asking. And the amount of sweets and processed items bought by the teens' parents as part of their normal shop was massive compared to what we used to have (and my mom's not exactly a health freak).

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Well I lived in the Midwest my whole life (at least I think it's the Midwest, maybe it's called something else by people who don't actually live there) and I have never heard Indiana being referred to as part of the Rust Belt. It's as midwestern as midwestern gets. (physical geography as little to do with such a classification)

― oops (Oops), Sunday, 25 April 2004 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

There's an argument for the Midwest being that which is west of Chicago and covered by Central time. I count St Louis as the beginning of the South and the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas as part of the same Midwest region that covers Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri and Illinois...the 'breadbasket' bit.

Indiana is the westernmost Rust Belt state.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread has taken a heartening turn for the awesome.

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 25 April 2004 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

is there a prominent steel industry in Indiana? or is the economy mainly based around farming?

― oops (Oops), Sunday, 25 April 2004 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Bit of both, rust belt and grain belt, I'd have thought, when factories were going, though I may be influenced by a massive influx of people from Gary to Twin Cities in the late '70s who migrated due to...closed factories. Manufacturing isn't about only steel.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas are Plain States, not the Mid-West

Indiana is most certainly in the Mid-West.

Who taught you otherwise?

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait St Louis isn't the Midwest?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

It totally is, I just think that south of there is where the South as such begins. What I was taught was from a Minnesota POV where Dakotas are part of the Upper Midwest, and western MN/Iowa/NE/KS one giant associated prairie. Confusion arises because Dakotas and KS/NE also part of the Great Plains (we're both right). However I have never heard the term 'Lower Midwest'. My KS/MO roommate in college considered herself Midwestern.

Indiana, whenever I have been in it, feels different in character to the states just west of it.

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmn. People who go to school in Columbia, MO may take offense to the idea that they are in the south, but that's for them to argue. I will say that Arkansas feels MUCH different than the southern part of Missouri when you are driving through it.

Indiana allow seemed exactly like Illinois to me (the non-Chicago part of it anyway) but I've not spent a huge amount in either place so I'll reserve judgement.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i am rather disappointed.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha this thread has taken a rather weird turn, hasn't it?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i demanded capering mischief and racism for my amusement, dammit

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I was really hoping J0hn and M0mus were get into it hot and heavy, but that does seem to have petered out.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 25 April 2004 22:58 (twenty-two years ago)

it was sweet while it lasted. the owned pic made me laugh anyway.

― mark p (Mark P), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:00 (twenty-two years ago)

(Nick was much, MUCH worse about America when I first met him)

(Chuckled at '0WN3D' too)

― suzy (suzy), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing that American bashers always seem to miss is that America is very hard to generalize about.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Only sort of.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Which is an important lesson to apply to Tall Asians as well (as I look around the room at several tall Asians).

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

this is the funniest thing I've read all day:

You're right, there's nothing more annoying than some fancy touring musician shouting the odds about your patch because they've lived there for a bit while blithely proclaiming the ignorance of others with much more genuine ties to that place. I really hate it when that happens.

― hstencil, Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Elements of the US are very very easy to generalise about.

― Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I was really hoping J0hn and M0mus were get into it hot and heavy, but that does seem to have petered out.

yeah as stence notes above I just got served so bad that I lost heart

Momus is still wrong of course but there's no cure for that

xpost
Elements of the US are very very easy to generalise about.
Yes, as long as one doesn't mind being wrong (see: Momus on places that aren't NY, and probably also on NY)

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

also, Kansas is a different planet

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Sunday, 25 April 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

people in Wisconsin are fat but our Asians are mostly short (Hmong, Laotian, Chinese/Korean exchange students-turned-engineers, etc.), but bi-racial Asian/Wisconsinites are usually tall and skinny and quite beautiful, and don't eat as many fried cheese curds. wait another 10 years and we'll be rockin'.

NOTE TO SUZY: don't own me, I admit that I didn't grow up in the Midwest. I'm going on what I've seen for the last 12 years but my family hasn't been farming for more than a decade, I tremble in fear to see my "argument" invalidated by a TRU MIDWESTURRRN SOLJAH SISTA.

― Begs2Differ (Begs2Differ), Monday, 26 April 2004 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

cibula you are treading on thin ice, this is a person who still uses the term "rust belt"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I prefer the term "wide fashion belt."

― Skottie, Monday, 26 April 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Hee Sop Choi is one big Korean.

― hstencil, Monday, 26 April 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Beware of any Asian female over 4 foot!

― chop chop, Monday, 26 April 2004 03:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Cultural generalisations are my forte -- I prefer to call them, simply, 'cultures' -- and I see no reason not to use them, especially when there are statistics just begging for wider cultural interpretation. Three stats no-one can deny are that Americans are getting more obese as time goes on, are losing their height advantage over other nationalities, and have much shorter life expectancy than a nation so rich ought to; the US ranks behind Puerto Rico in longevity ranking, at 48 in the >table of long-living nations. That is truly shocking, and we can quibble over anomalies, statistics and exceptions all we like, but what we need to explain it is, I think, a cultural overview.

Most Americans could afford to eat well if they wanted to. The fact that they do not is related to what it means to be American. It means, for example, that 'time is money'. You eat quickly. To be American is also to be embroiled in Christian attitudes to the body. It is not to be indulged with a clear conscience -- although you might binge in a guilty way on foods high in sugar, salt and carbohydrates, knowing full well how bad they are for you.

We could make a materialist paraphrase of a biblical phrase and say 'What does it profit a man if he wins the whole world but loses his own body?' I think this is the key question for Americans now.

Now, I know these things because to some extent I share the protestant-capitalist mindset of the US, which overlaps with the British mindset. Living in Paris or Berlin, I am often frustrated that people dawdle on the escalator, or spend two hours over lunch, sipping red wine. Don't they have work to do? Why are they all such gluttons and sybarites? I think mainland Europe has become a place where people have actually, in a sense, given up the idea of eternal growth, dominance, empire, or at least made a sensible compromise with the environment, with pleasure and leisure and with their own bodies. This can happen partly because in Europe we are mostly 'over' Christianity, and also because we are 'post-capitalist'. We have arrived at a society in which money is not the ultimate value. In contrast, a country like Russia, which has embraced capitalism in its worst, most destructive and stereotypical form (under Bush, at least, the form which America is currently embracing), actually has declining life expectancy. The average Russian male has a life expectancy of 58 years!!! That is 12 years less than the European average, and quite a bit less than it was in the Soviet Union. The reasons are to do with culture: with the way capitalism fosters inequality, with its emphasis on winners and losers, insiders and outsiders, and its attitudes to time, money and life itself. If a culture does not have some internal resistance to capitalism, it quickly falls prey to its malaises.

Japan is an interesting comparison. Japan has a rushed, stressed capitalistic lifestyle, but also a non-Christian tradition of sensual pleasure, and huge respect for food. What we're seeing now in Japan (with, for instance, the Slow Life movement) is a successful adaptation to a post-capitalist society in which economic development can slow down in a good way that is beneficial to people and to the environment. Because of their own rich culture (the Slow Life movement draws heavily on the traditional Japanese past), the Japanese are able to ride the slowing capitalist beast rather than be ridden by it. I would love to believe that Americans could make the same kind of transition, for the sake of their bodies if not their souls.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:36 (twenty-two years ago)

were you ever into student politics?

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to point out that very large amounts of Scotland aren't even within easy reach of a chip shop, and it's West Central Scotland that's dragging the rest of the country down.

Are you kidding? We're the only interesting people in Scotland!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:50 (twenty-two years ago)

is life expectancy declining in the other formerly communist eastern european countires, momus?
If it isn't I don't think you can state that capitalism=shorter life span

― Sym (shmuel), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Wouldn't be surprised to find out it is declining. Life expectancy for males in Shettleston in Glasgow currently stands at 63 years old.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Not trying to pick a fight but I'm pretty familiar with Japan and to be perfectly honest I haven't observed anything that would indicate that the Slow Life movement is anything more than a bunch of nice sounding rhetoric. Sounds nice though.

x-post

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:56 (twenty-two years ago)

is life expectancy declining in the other formerly communist eastern european countries?

You may have noticed that several of these countries just joined the EU. They will now be entitled to lots of aid and development programmes which will have a positive impact on their longevity and health stats. It is the kind of rampant unregulated, untaxed capitalism you see now in Russia that kills. I was just in Moscow and the air was awful, for instance. And, surprise surprise, when I got there I found my concert was sponsored by an American tobacco company, Chesterfield.

Other notable features of Moscow life: gambling, drugs, prostitution, corruption, crime. All fantastic if you're writing a True Crime series, but terrible if you just want a nice long life and a bit of pleasure.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Tall Japanese flatmate, preparing lunch, says: 'Japanese people don't necessarily take food more seriously than Americans, but they know what is tasty food. It depends what Americans mothers are cooking. They just make their children hamburgers.'

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:20 (twenty-two years ago)

(She is taller than her mother and her grandparents. And, by the smell of what she's preparing right now, classic.)

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:21 (twenty-two years ago)

How does gambling shorten your life exactly?

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:23 (twenty-two years ago)

If you lose your money, you don't eat. And if you win, the mafia knows where you live.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:28 (twenty-two years ago)

My live promoter in Moscow won enough money gambling to buy a BMW. Two months later four Chechens pushed her in as she was getting into it, drove her to a forest, where one guarded her while the others made off with car and papers. When she got back to the city, the police said 'This is Moscow. You should drive a cheaper car.' Her BMW was uninsured. That little episode is Moscow in a nutshell, and I think you can see several months of her life going up in a puff of smoke right there.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Those are crime problems though, or poverty problems, rather than actual lifestyle ones, that's the life expectancy being affected by economic factors.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, yes, exactly: is life expectancy declining in the other formerly communist eastern european countries?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes but he was suggesting it's an actual lifestyle choice that is causing the decline.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Life expectancy is declining in other FCEE countries. But, as I said above, this trend will soon start to reverse in those countries that join the EU.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

British Medical Journal:

'The immediate cause of the rising mortality, said the report, is the "rise in self-destructive behaviour, especially among men." Old problems such as alcoholism have increased; drug misuse--a relatively new problem in the former communist bloc--has risen dramatically in recent years. The report Transition 1999 stated that suicide rates have climbed steeply too, by 60% in Russia, 80% in Lithuania, and 95% in Latvia since 1989.

'But behind the self destructive behaviour, the authors say, are economic factors, including rising poverty rates, unemployment, financial insecurity, and corruption. Whereas only 4% of the population of the region had incomes equivalent to $4 (2.50 [pounds sterling]) a day or less in 1988, that figure had climbed to 32% by 1994. In addition, the transition to a market economy has been accompanied by lower living standards (including poorer diets), a deterioration in social services, and major cutbacks in health spending.'

You know, Karl Marx was right.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

If you're poor and miserable is it or is it not a lifestyle choice to drink or drug yourself insensible, smoke like a chimney and gamble what little money you have?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course it is, in fact poor people probably are so genetically different from us that they are naturally attracted to drugs and alcohol, and gambling too.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:47 (twenty-two years ago)

No Ronan, they're not but what the fuck do you know about "poor people" anyway - apart from all that womnderful charity you give to them and expect everyone else to applaud you for.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Please leave me to smoke my ivory cigarettes will you?

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Have you given today?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It's nice you managed to save face after that iffy comment above.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Which iffy comment was that?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

If you're poor and miserable is it or is it not a lifestyle choice to drink or drug yourself insensible, smoke like a chimney and gamble what little money you have?

Good thing you were careful to try and paint me as some sort of snob after this, could have been risky!

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Well it would have been iffy and snobbish if you'd said it Ronan. If you are poor and miserable then all those choices are valid ones. But anyway, fuck it, I'm not going to fall out with you just because you called me a wanker, that's pretty silly isn't it?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

The Guardian are doing a special on the new EU member states and in the factoid box which accompanies each one, there is an entry for 'Dish' which is meant to reflect local cuisine. They list these favourites of formerly Communist nations:

Hungary: Mecsek highwayman's dumpling soup (stuffed dumplings in soup)
Lithuania: Cepelinai (potato dumplings in onion and sour cream sauce)
Poland: Zrazy zawijane (mushroom-stuffed beefsteak rolls in sour cream)
Slovenia: Burek (a 'greasy, layered pie served in take-aways')
Czech Republic: Vepøo knedlo zelo (roast pork with dumplings and sauerkraut)
Slovakia: Bryndzove Halusky (small potato dumplings with sheep cheese)
Estonia: Verivorst (black and white pudding, the meat sort)
Latvia: Piragi (Latvian bacon buns)

I can kind of feel my arteries clogging just reading that list. Oh, to be a travelling heart surgeon in the new EU states.

Americans eat what fills them up, like anyone, and from my POV are more likely to eat to induce comfort or to slake anxiety, especially if 'working poor' and the whole super-size issue appeals to the bulk bargain buyer/oral fixation element. There's a little poverty neurosis too, where one imagines an interruption in supplies or the starving Other is invoked when kids are asked to clean their plates (cue Suzy unloading uneaten tuna casserole into addressed UNICEF box aged 6; mom backed down) '32 oz of soda for two bucks when the 8-oz small is a buck? Gimme Coke lake now!' The main thing that gives me the heebie-jeebies about food in the US is the amount of adulteration allowed, the battery farming and the very corporate GM lobby that the British public are not scared of saying no to.

Also, for the life of me I cannot remember my mum or anyone else's making hamburgers for lunch, it's strictly a school dinners or out-to-lunch thing (every female member of my immediate family has been a short order cook in the same drugstore diner so our hamburgers are fabulous when we make them due to fussiness about ingredients. My mum's gran came from Krakow and had a Polish café so she was taught to make most of the stuff they're eating in the new EU states). The *worst* processed food we had were Swenson's chicken and vegetable pies or Tater Tots and usually we had good (deli-type) sandwiches with soup and one or two pieces of fruit each. My mom looked down, WAY down, on our neighbours who served their kids Spagettios, Chef Boy-ar-dee, Top Ramen and Kraft dinners for lunch and Trix and Coco Pops for breakfast instead of Cheerios.

Now I go home and I open her fridge and there are PIES and YUCKY AMERICAN CHEESES and PORK+NITRATES in abundance, while the lone, sad lettuce gets moldy in a crisper.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you for suzy for derailing the fite

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah it was touch and go for a minute there.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

If you are poor and miserable then all those choices are valid ones.

'I think I will kill myself. This is a perfectly valid response to my poverty, and my right as a loser. Death is part of my freedom of choice.'

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

They are a valid response to misery Momus, they are obviously not anyone's preferred response.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm afraid I see all defences of self-destructive behaviour as 'rockism' or evidence that someone has a secret goth streak.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha, I've got to be terribly elitist here and rush off and see a Berio concert. What a class traitor (who, me or Berio?)

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

If you're poor and miserable in America I can tell you one of the main reasons for that would be an inadequate health care system which relies on employers to provide employees with a health care package, but if you're in the grey area between AFDC support and full, benefits-laden employment you get fuck all and live in a kind of anxiety about medical matters all the time. And for the most part the people causing this inequality are insurers and penny-pinching bosses who are all a-OK with the system as it is now because THEY get help, and screw everyone else into the bargain. I know so many people kept on terms which see them working that bit less than the statutory marker for coverage in conjunction with the employer, purely because that employer either can't afford or does not want the cost of insuring employees. but they're happy to take out a 'dead peasant' policy which pays them if said employee gets killed on the premises.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Communism for America now!

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(Or at the very least universal health care, but until some brilliant, clever person manages to de-fang the insurance-industry lobby it just ain't gonna happen)

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

We'll hump that Hillary when we get her.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:38 (twenty-two years ago)

What an awful mental picture.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Better than the image of 41 million Americans without health insurance, all screaming in agony and asking for a dime.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

(Or 75 million, depending on how you count.)

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(also huge bloat/rise in cost of plans almost certainly down to cost and prevalence of what Americans now casually call 'meds')

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:56 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread is even worse than strongo had anticipated

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 11:29 (twenty-two years ago)

My self-employed mom pays $3600 a year for medical insurance which has a $1000 deductible and NO dental insurance, which is a separate matter. She says that healthcare is her main 'issue' as a voter but still cast hers for that fucker Bush. DUHHHHHH.

― suzy (suzy), Monday, 26 April 2004 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I got no insurance at all. Not to derail but 8 years of Dems in office didn't exactly improve the insurance situation, though.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Communism for America now!

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I couldn't get into the Berio gig! So much for Marxism!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread is even worse than strongo had anticipated

What, because Strongo thought the racist stereotypes would fly, when instead people bandied statistics about height, life expectancy and health provision about? It seems to me that the thread went to an unexpectedly dignified place after wobbly beginnings. Only some kind of Dick Cheney would think this clarity was a bad development.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"unexpectedly dignified" = "there was much Momus"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

This is just going to end with Stephin Merrit in front of a giant Momus pictorial and the 4AD label boss dancing in the spotlight, isn't it?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

we can only hope

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"unexpectedly dignified" = "there was much Momus"

"even worse than anticipated" = "there was much Momus"

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)

At least he kept his trousers on in this thread

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus dammit I was saving the apodosis for when you responded, now look what you've done

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

apodosis?

Have you got a cold or sumthin'?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

You learn these words by scouring the web for cheap dental insurance for US residents, don't you?

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus it used to be so hard to make you mad

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a good word, I will commit it to memory and regurgitate all down an ILXor at some time in the future

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I am calmly, sweetly sane -- to the point of teleothegmatogensis, John.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean I used to have to work up a real lather to get a rise out of you and now I gotta do to get you to start flexin' is show up

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

J0hn, my posts in this thread have almost all been about the topic. Yours, on the other hand, have been about your wife and me. You're an ad hominem kinda poster and I'm an ad topicans kinda poster.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

he fancies you Momus.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I know! It's a bit embarrassing.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

He's seen the photos - but then, hasn't everyone?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I come here to spread statistics which show that Marx was right. If others come to flirt, use abstruse words and to complain that they don't have dental insurance, that's their business.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

It would be ungracious not to admit defeat here. I am however most interested in this word "topicans" with whose derivation I am unfamiliar

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Since you were kind enough to admit defeat, I'll admit I made it up. But if enough people adopt it, it will be a real word one day, a sort of gene-lab pig latin. (By the way, I did not make up the British Medical Journal stats above showing that life expectancy is falling in communist countries which have adopted the market economy.)

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

you are benevolent and kind, sire

now pls. admit that you know very well I don't need a dictionary for "apodosis": that was a low blow

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, it's me who needs the dictionary -- and the dental treatment. Do we shag now or later, baby? (Bears horrifying mouth filled with British 'gravestone' teeth.)

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

c'mon up to my place, I'll show you my first-edition English translation of The Wretched of the Earth

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Alternatively, there's this little cinema I know where they're always showing The Sorrow and the Pity.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

You two should just read about your cameos here (you do not shag, though).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

very good read, and underappreciated classic. hat tip to momus.

― modestmickey, Friday, 13 April 2007 10:54 (nineteen years ago)

― chap, Friday, 13 April 2007 12:08 (nineteen years ago)

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