Why do the Bushies keep bringing up Vietnam

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Your guy - dodged active service through family connections, probably didn't fulfill reserve requirements

Other guy - decorated, wounded veteran as well as opponent of a war that still isn't popular in the US, now opposed to a war that's increasingly unpopular in the US, can go in front of audiences with personal experiences

What's the upside for Cheney, etc. to keep harping on this? If I were in Bush's camp, I'd spend my time dodging Vietnam and shutting the hell up.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Personally I'm baffled, but judging by recent polling it's all apparently working.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd say they're trying to sell people on "John Kerry went to 'Nam -> became outspoken anti-war activist -> therefore, if John Kerry had been president during the last four years you'd have all been bombed to bits by Saddam by now".
I'm sure there are a lot of dumb people who will buy this argument.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

or put the bug in peoples' ears, that john kerry's ONLY qualification is that he is a vietnam vet.

which is the ONLY explanation for bushco flogging 'nam that doesn't make them look like total idiots.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't noticed the polling, is it working for independents?

Barry's explanation is most plausible to me, given the neo-con attitudes of the last few years, but it still seems idiotic. The only people who'd buy that are going to vote for the cokehead anyway.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Exactly, Milo, it's totally idiotic and it makes no sense.
Lots of things that Bushco do don't make any sense. I think people have become so used to it that they've forgotten what is normal.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

You mean it isn't normal for the vice-president of the United States to battle the supreme court in an effort to keep private information about national energy policy? But the Bush administration assures me that it is!

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

be vewy bewy qwiet, i'm hunting ducks with fat tony!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean if Cheney is forced to disclose who helped him form policy then nobody will ever want to help form policy in the future! People only want to help the government do their job if they can be assured of complete anonymity.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't conspiracy theorists have enough to read?! Bush is keeping a lot of them in business. Maybe that was his economic plan all along. Create more business for private-press pamphleteers and their dicey tracts on the house of saud=CIA.

― scott seward (scott seward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Not to mention keep psychiatrists in business to treat people with anxiety issue relating from world crisis paranoias.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 02:18 (twenty-two years ago)

me not speak good english this day

Not to mention keeping psychiatrists in business who treat people with anxiety issues relating to world crises and related paranoias.

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i liked the first way you put it better!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 02:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought it was universally accepted that the Vietnam war was a bad thing? Why is this even an issue!

― DAziz, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 03:25 (twenty-two years ago)

You need to listen closer to the Neo-con POV. See we could have won Vietnam if we hadn't been betrayed by liberal military tactics and those damn hippoe protestors.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 03:27 (twenty-two years ago)

should i make an obvious joke about hippos now?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

On top of the "We woulda won if we killed 'em all" neo-con POV, the war isn't considered wrong to many, maybe most now, Americans in and of itself. It was wrong because we lost.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 03:34 (twenty-two years ago)

My theory on this is that a lot of middle-class white fiftysomethings were happy to get out of service by any means necessary, including my dad, who played up a HS sports injury even though as an only child he'd never have had to go in the first place, the dumbass. My mom says that most people at the time were trying to manipulate the system to get out of going 'by any means necessary' (oddly, not a lot of them thought 'ooh, I know: COLLEGE and it sometimes shows), that not many people in her age group really begrudge Bush for not going but do begrudge Clinton, as a passing acquaintance with the National Guard is somehow 'better' than getting a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford. Hein? No, she couldn't justify her position at all and sidewound into something about Kerry not being quite as genuine a war hero as has been claimed, which she had zero backup for.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Kerry got some medals, but did he really deserve them? How can we be sure?

See how easy that is. Now Kerry is exaggerating his war record.

― Debito (Debito), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I know how easy it is to foment doubt in the minds of people with no political compass other than the 'ugh my taxes are paying for all these welfare people'. And true to Minnesotan form my mom does begin all sentences with 'I don't know, but'.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

The argument that goes "Kerry said he tossed away his medals, but he only threw away his ribbons" is particularly moronic

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 10:45 (twenty-two years ago)

He's usually pretty good at rebuttals for whatever it is Karl Rove dreams up to beat him with, but in this case I think he should just let them look strident.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I tell you what is really odd - I've heard a lot of right wingers bring up the Domino Effect theory and talk as if Vietnam was an appropriate response to this "theory"

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 10:51 (twenty-two years ago)

All the Democrat talking heads on the news shows comparing Kerry's "heroic service" to Bush's "ducking his responsibilities" is doing wonders for the National Guard vote.

― Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

All the failure to get international support for invading Iraq is doing wonders for the National Guard mortality rates

― Sym (shmuel), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Not really.

― Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

It's certainly doing nothing for the job prospects of reservists stuck in Iraq.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

This shouldn't be surprising for anybody who remembers the South Carolina primary in 2000. If they'll smear John freakin' McCain, they'll smear Kerry.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

More than anything Bushco is continually dictating the topics. Kerry/the Dems take the bait everytime. If they would just start concentrating on their own message and forgetting Bush is alive it would create less of this "No, I didn't" "Yes, you did". Bush is making all the moves, Kerry is defining himself by Bush's moves.

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sure Kerry can straighten this out.

― Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The interesting thing about the Domino Theory, so beloved of right-wing loonies, is that the current batch of RW loonies is proposing a sort of reverse Domino Theory (an Onimod Theory, if you like) - whereby if you run the film backwards that domino lying on the ground, which here represents an undemocratic Arab state, will stand up (of its own free will) and the other prone dominos will follow it.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

please also note that the Bush admin officials with the most military experience (Powell, Armitage) have been the most cautious in regards to the current situation.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Stuart - I enjoyed that Kerry audio.

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

The Bushies keep bringing up Vietnam?

The Dems have cried chickenhawk for almost two years now. And merely a couple of months ago, Dems--led by that hack Kevin Drum and his partisan bugle corps--were busy dragging Bush's service record to the front page. Since when isn't turnabout fair play? Also, Kerry talks about his service in Vietnam frequently. This is the work of the Bushies?

probably didn't fulfill reserve requirements

This is a conspiracy theory, which is why it has no traction.

― don carville weiner, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

so the Dems have been trying to discredit one of Kerry's Purple Hearts, don?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

probably didn't fulfill reserve requirements

This is a conspiracy theory, which is why it has no traction.

Obviously, he completed his reserve requirements; he just happened to be invisible at the time so that no one could see that he was on base fulfilling his duties. Anyone who doesn't believe this clearly hates America.

― webcrack (music=crack), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

so the Dems have been trying to discredit one of Kerry's Purple Hearts, don?

I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is that asserting it's the Bushies who keep bringing up Vietnam in this campaign is simply not believable on any level.

― don carville weiner, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

But it's true - Cheney and Hughes going on TV to attack Kerry about Vietnam, GOPers across the nation doing it in papers and talk radio.

And it's fucking weird. Bush was smart to run away from Vietnam for two years, why suddenly make a stand?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

my point is that many Democrats, while wary about Kerry (hey that rhymes), still aren't the ones craven enough to question a Purple Heart recipient.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

That only son thing is a crock. I checked it out when I registered.

Only Sons" and the draft

Contrary to popular belief, "only sons," "the last son to carry the family name," and "sole surviving sons" must register and they can be drafted. However, they may be entitled to a peacetime deferment if there is a military death in the immediate family.

― Chris 'The Velvet Bingo' V (Chris V), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Wesley Clark just stood there and listened to Michael Moore call Bush a deserter for flying a goddamn fighter jet for the Texas Air National Guard.

― Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"flying."

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with mcd about bush setting the tone. I think this whole semantic argument just makes kerry look like an idiot and plays into the whole waffler/he says one thing then says another thing meme theyre beating into the populace.

I also think its unfortunate that they have to keep babbling about vietnam. For some reason Kerry's service carried him in the primaries, but the primaries somehow created a life of its own and frankencandidate pulled it off. But its not the goddamn primaries anymore. Kerry needs to start distinguishing himself and coming up with positive programs and such that get people (especially the squishy middle) excited about him as a candidate. none of this 'well, george bush didnt serve in the national guard' crap will fly because that plays into the hand of rove, etc. who the press are always glad to extend the benefit of the doubt.

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

The fighter jet he abandoned to work on a Senate campaign after taxpayers paid $1 million for his training?

I think Tad is the most otm on this thread thus far. They do tend to try to throw up everything they can think of to see what sticks. Or maybe it's simpler than his point - they're trying to avoid playing defense on this by giving the appearance of being on the offense (when in fact there is no substance to their offensive; they think sound and fury will be enough). Or maybe they know they're going to have to play defense and want to play it now. Lots of people are wringing their hands over Kerry talking about what a terrible candidate he is and why isn't he responding to the attacks and getting out a daily message and grabbing airwaves and puttin forth policy positions and such? Well, maybe he should be doing these things, but I'm not so sure. He's known as a strong closer, always finishing above expectation in his races. Why? Well, a ground game for one thing. But perhaps because he understands cycles. In recent years, the time around and just after the conventions has been the most important in shaping the dynamics of the race. Kerry may wisely be holding his fire until then so that he goes into October and November with fresh themes and on an upswing. Bush may be responding to this tactic (how do you run a campaign when the other side won't engage?) by trying to draw Kerry into battle and draw the sting of his attacks now rather than later. Remember when Bush called Kerry after Edwards dropped and declared the opening of the general election campaign? That was sort of weird. Maybe it was the same idea.

This is a conspiracy theory, which is why it has no traction.

So why doesn't Bush eliminate any doubts by releasing his full record, so, for instance, we can see the codes on his DD-214.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

By all accounts Dubya's a lousier pilot than his father (who was shot down, of course).

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing about Kerry is that he has real self confidence. He doesn't have to go anywhere the other side tells him to. After two months of Bush attacks, and very little Kerry response or even presence, they're still tied in the polls. Kerry is fiddling while Bush's money burns. It might even become a meme.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

It's funny all these naysayers resurfacing again. Don't they remember their December predictions being wrong?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

It's craven to question a Purple Heart recipient, and something Democrats wouldn't stoop to, but calling Bush a deserter and a lousy pilot is cool?

― Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

by accounts I've read written by friends of his he's a lousy pilot, Stuart!

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

This whole issue bugs me.

Personally, I don't give a crap that Bush didn't want to go to war. Also, if I was a parent, I would prefer my child took the path of least resistance and I think most parents would feel the same. I don't think it's a big deal at all.

I also don't see an inherent contradiction in Kerry's viewpoint. He went to war, won some medals, afterwards decided Vietnam was a bad idea, came back to tell people his point of view. What's the big deal? Why doesn't he just say, "yeah that was me." and move on to focusing on the qualities that make him a good leader? Let's face it, there are no prerequisites to becoming a wartime president!

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

It's craven to question a Purple Heart recipient, and something Democrats wouldn't stoop to, but calling Bush a deserter and a lousy pilot is cool?

Um, yeah. There's no contradiction there, Stuart.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

it's also cool to point out that Bush the Elder batted .192 at Yale.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Like Josh Marshall says, Kerry's pre-convention campaign will either be seen as a fantastic strategy or a horrific failure.

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

it's also cool to point out that Bush the Elder batted .192 at Yale.

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

How the hell did Cheney become Secretary of Defense anyway? Other than being a career politician, he doesn't appear to have any previous military experience.

― earlnash, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

you don't have to have military experience to be SoD. I think it's probably usually symbolic (in a way) for the DoD to be run by a civilian.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

If anything, I'd think it'd be a more than a little scary for the DoD to be run by someone in the active military.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I realize that the head of the DoD is a civilian, most of the Secretaries of Defense were in the military at one point.

Cheney is just another windbag that got a deferrment while a bunch of poor kids went to die.

― earlnash, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

hey stuart, just wondering, but which branch of the military did you serve in?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't.

― Stuart (Stuart), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

what's your batting average?

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

it's also cool to point out that Bush the Elder batted .192 at Yale.

What a coincidence! That was dubya's average for their drinking team.

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

it was his average blood alcohol content

― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

would that not kill a normal human¿

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Precisely.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

no, .19 wouldn't kill you, but it'd be enough to get you arrested for DUI in most states (like, say, Maine).

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought .06 was enough to get you busted.
methinks i've underestimated the drinking prowess of you yanks.

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

depends on the state you're in. Some are .08, some are .10.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

one would be in a state of intoxication, no¿

― dyson (dyson), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"one would be in a state of intoxication, no¿"

Bush Jr. was in this state quite often in his youth.

― earlnash, Wednesday, 28 April 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

1.00: you'd be dead, or Tombot.

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

decimal is key here.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

All the Democrat talking heads on the news shows comparing Kerry's "heroic service" to Bush's "ducking his responsibilities" is doing wonders for the National Guard vote.

I think most Guardsmen and women are smart enough and educated enough to be aware of the u + k differences in service requirements between the Vietnam era Guard and the hell that they are in now. Well under 2% of Guardsmen saw active duty in Vietnam.

It's so pathetic that even folks who've served don't just accept that W pulled strings and slithered out of the risk of active duty in Vietnam. That would make pretty typical of the time from my understanding, but these folks are in hyper-denial and they truly love the guy so much as a person and an emblem. They're the type of people who create cults of personality. My prediction for 2015? George W. Bush University. Or better, The G. W. Bush School of Government at Ronald Reagan University.

― Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

they could do exchange programs with Bob Jones University.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The Poison Ivy League.

― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 29 April 2004 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Will George W. Bush University be in Crawford or Baghdad?

― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 29 April 2004 02:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Nah, among the Bushco orange groves on Baffin Island. Neil Bush, Dean of Students natch.

― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't put Neil in charge of my budget, much less that of a university.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd totally buy a bush university hat though

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd go there if they offered a Masters in Public Speaking.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm thinking the Caymans. And you know who the Dean would be.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:32 (twenty-two years ago)

duke vs. james baker would be an interesting fite

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:34 (twenty-two years ago)

1968 already

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 29 April 2004 03:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I read this Vanity Fair piece on Neil and Sharon Bush's divorce. He actually seems like a pretty cool guy, compared to the rest of them. This is just hilarious -

During the divorce proceedings, it was revealed Bush had had sex with numerous women on his Asian business trips. The women, he said, simply knocked on the door of his hotel room, entered and had sex with him. He said he did not know if they were prostitutes because they never asked for money and he did not pay them. During the divorce court proceedings, his wife's lawyer Mr. Brown said "Mr. Bush, you have to admit it's a pretty remarkable thing for a man just to go to a hotel room door and open it and have a woman standing there and have sex with her." Neil Bush replied, "It was very unusual".

As far as attacks on Kerry.. I think the shit really hit the fan last Friday when some House Republicans decided to lay into Kerry's Vietnam record in a series of floor speeches, really out of the blue.

House GOP Critical of Kerry's '71 Actions

― daria g (daria g), Thursday, 29 April 2004 07:27 (twenty-two years ago)

The longer bushco can keep talking about vietnam, the less time there is for talking about real issues.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 29 April 2004 11:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Bushco could just stop talking about Vietnam all together and let 2004 Vietnam-experience-touting Kerry debate it with 1971 Vietnam-experience-regretting Kerry.

― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:14 (twenty-two years ago)

that is true unfortunately

― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:15 (twenty-two years ago)

once again, it appears that you're attempting to point out an inconsistency when there isn't one, stuart.

― ooops, Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Reminding people about Vietnam over and over plays very very well for Bush. How could it be otherwise?? Remember that for a LOT of Americans the "mistake" of Vietnam was that we didn't stay there and "finish the job"!!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

exactly, there are clearly still male members of that generation still alive and being president.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

hmm, most of the Vietnam vets I know (including my stepfather) as well as other vets who served but weren't deployed in Nam (including my dad) don't see it as a war where the "job" wasn't finished, but that the job was unfinishable (is that a word?). So I don't know if it's a generational thing as much as a you were in the forces and knew it was a disaster, or opposed the war on moral grounds, or both.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

then there's also the minority who thinks Jane Fonda lost us the war, I shouldn't forget them.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm having a hard time telling when Kerry is inconsistent, I'll admit.

― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil I get that impression from vets, too, but it never seems to be people who've got actual experience in war (i.e. Colin Powell) who make the political decisions that lead us to it.

The "mistakes" I most often hear cited re: Vietnam - besides whether we should have "finished the job" - are almost always tactical ones, never political ones, or moral ones.

Does anyone else remember how knife-edged the tension was in Gulf War I? Vietnam comparisons were made REPEATEDLY before the war had even begun; there was this real fear and paranoia even among conservatives about body counts and quagmires, TONS of ink spilled about "how this will NOT be another Vietnam" "the GHOSTS of Vietnam" etc. I think those ghosts are still prancing around now, pulling the strings of our leadership, but I am frankly astonished at the country's new stomach for the number of Americans lying dead, and dying, in the sands of Iraq.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Bushco could just stop talking about Vietnam all together and let 2004 Vietnam-experience-touting Kerry debate it with 1971 Vietnam-experience-regretting Kerry.

Kerry opposed the Vietnam war before he served, immediately after he served, and today. And yet he served with honor. I can imagine, Stuart, how you would have trouble understanding that.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 29 April 2004 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

well supposedly gulf war i exorcised the ghost of vietnam, but it looks like he is a tenacious bugger

― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

whereas people like stuart, the prez, the vice prez are prowar eight days a week as long as people like them don't actually have to go fight it (they're consistent cowards - give them that).

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

While I was thinking that myself for a while, Cinni, Stuart said on a thread a couple of weeks back in response to a jibe along the same lines from me that in fact he was thinking about enrolling in the military.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a tenacious bugger when you decide to ignore the strategy that one gulf war 1 (overwhelming force, a clear exit strategy, "plan plan plan" - eisenhower, "the more we sweat in peace, the less we bleed in war" - sun tzu)(ie. post-vietnam defense cw)(ie. the powell doctrine), and act out some wacky no basis in reality ignore your military and intelligence advisors defense "theory" (mcnamara doctrine, rumsfeld doctrine).

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

thinking and doing are two very different things - i'm thinking of trying out for the oakland a's next year.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, true enough.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

"I think those ghosts are still prancing around now"

If things get ugly enough that politicians actually start the process for a draft, those ghosts will start getting really visible and loud. I doubt it will happen, but if it does, shit will get buck wild.

― earlnash, Thursday, 29 April 2004 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the only reason Rangel is so big on the draft is he hopes it will stir up anti-war sentiment.

― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i want them to bring the draft back. i want to see what will happen then.

― dyson (dyson), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Bringing back the draft would be awful, but I have no worries. The occasionally-asthmatic arthritic youth of America are safe.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I am opposed to the draft, because it would raise LSD prices astronomically.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm opposed to the draft because we'd hear a round of protest songs from mediocre rock stars.

Does the world need Eddie Vedder to cover "Draft-Dodger Rag"?

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

no, especially not while whacked out on LSD to fool the draft board.

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

If you tell the draft board that you're gay, do they have to let you go? I can understand the deterrent from lying about this during Vietnam or Korea - but nowadays, the stigma isn't so strong.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

turn on, tune in, don't ask, don't tell

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I've always wondered about that, too: "I'm a big, flaming hunk of passion, and I love a man in uniform! Hand over my boots, sarge!"

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"If things get ugly enough that politicians actually start the process for a draft, those ghosts will start getting really visible and loud. "

sort of a casper gets ugly deal then

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 30 April 2004 01:21 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...

#1 with a bullet on Amazon.com

― dan carville weiner, Thursday, 5 August 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

McCain condemns the new anti-Kerry ads questioning Kerry's service.

― kyle (akmonday), Thursday, 5 August 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

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