Seriously give me 25 GOOD reasons not to join the military for a few years

Talk to a recruiter, then email me.

The others are sort of obvious, but if I'm wrong about them, well, I stand corrected.

I will email you. Thanks. But first:

1 - Even if I WAS sent to 'war,' my specialty wouldn't be combat, I'd be a technician or an MT. I could never kill anyone who hadn't personally harmed me or my family first. Period.

2 - see #1.

3 - I think you watch too many movies. And anyway, for a 'punk rock' type, I have very little problem with authority when I'm able to see the forest for the trees. I call cops 'sir,' and not just when I'm trying to get out of a ticket

4 - My conscience is telling me that I can't sit around working at Wal Mart and getting fat on PBR while my wife waits tables at Chilis

5 - US war machine? Some would have you believe you're contibuting to the corporate death machine just drinking Snapple. This is highly subjective. I'm not against war at all - just this one.

So we're back to zero.

Then what the fuck are you waiting for?!

I'll admit that I haven't inquired all that much, but this seems like a real pipe dream if Shrub's war machine continues unabated. It seems like human resources would be stretched quite thin, and that everyone on the payroll would be expected to have at least a mininum, self-defense run-through... and damn well be expected to use it if they have to.

Wifey is dead set against it

Show some fucking respect for your wife's say.

Mediawhore - I'm not unemployable at all, but I'm usually overqualified for bad jobs and underqualified for good ones.

6 - I was thinking of shaving my head anyway. I don't wash my hair enough to pull off anything else

Eric - I'm not against learning things like unarmed combat, assembling rifles, etc, that'd be part of basic training.

I already feel confident enough that I could 'handle' myself in most situations, and I am not, as ex-jeremy is, a committed pacifist by any means.

What I'm saying is that I will never fire a gun at anyone unless it was for personal reasons. I'm serious, you can train me into an 'army of one' all you want - you point me out an Iraqi teenager and tell me to kill him just because and it's back to Bikini Kill 45s and 'O-Oh Caaaanaduuuuuuh' for me, bub.

Well, you already talk like a military husband, might as well BE one.

;)

(I'm genuinely sorry for subjecting everyone to what is easily my lamest attempt at wit ever.)

FWIW, I have a number of military reservist friends who will be willing to back Andrew up on BT shitholeness. But they'd probably only talk about it for a little while before they got into how they've been supremely jerked around in the time since.

However, my friend is in the army and he said it's taught him a lot of discipline which he felt was missing from his life...

8. Person I know has a friend over there. He told me this the other day. The friend is back home for 2 weeks after a year duty in Iraq. He has changed a lot, lost a lot of weight and looks sickly and drained. He says the stress is hardly bearable. That and the heat makes it so you can't eat, sleep, relax or feel comfortable. He rides on the back of a humvee in 100+ degree weather all day, aiming a machine gun at crowds of people who he doesn't know and never knows when someone is going to take a shot at him or worse. The people all smile at him but he says most of them hate him even when they are smiling. When he drives by, parents don't lift a finger when crowds of little kids start throwing rocks. Now he's going back for another year, if he gets out that soon.

9. Is a tech job really safe. There's no army against army fighting, and support people probably have more to worry about than regular soldiers, and truck drivers & contractors most of all, they are easier targets. Snipers, getting kidnapped, blown up with traps, or just having accidents with equipment is probably the biggest worry.

Didn't you see what happened to Pyle? If people are going to whip on D'onofrio like that how do you think they're going to treat you?

That said, I may still consider joining the Reserves.

FWIW, I was more ENcouraged than DIScouraged by this thread, because all but one or two of the reasons not to join up didn't dissuade me in the least, and actually seemed rather stupid.

15. History will record quite clearly that you fought for the beligerent side in an unnessasery war.

Last month, over 1,000 soldiers were injured in Iraq, the greatest number since the end of major combat operations.

If you look at many of the 1,000 service men and women killed, quite a few of them do not fit the 20-year-old infantry grunt profile. There have been many reservists killed with specialties in areas like transport, engineering, or whatever. Many were middle-aged.

In case you have noticed, the U.S. Armed Forces are conducting a war right now. If you have no desire to see combat, I wouldn't think this is a good time to join up.

"What I'm saying is that I will never fire a gun at anyone unless it was for personal reasons."

This comment is particularly bizarre to me. That's a basic component of being a soldier.

Yes, probably loads Alba, and I'd trust their opiniosn because THEY'D BEEN SOLDIERS, that's the point - what they do now is moot - it's the ATC / air cadet thing that's daft, like asking a kid who plays Sunday league football what it's like being a premiership footballer.

HKM, you still fail to understand - I'm not going into this morally / politically accepting any of it. Yes I believe in drastically limiting gov't power, but i also believe in the right to eat a Fruit Roll Up now and again, too - but I'm willing to put things like these aside so that I can benefit from the experience financially / personally in the future. Become a better marksman for when the New World Order finally strikes, or whatever you're most comfortable believing about me. The bottom line is that it'd be nice to learn things like first aid, topography, unarmed combat, gun maintainence, etc, and be paid for it

But like I said, I'm reconsidering the whole thing

Ronan that's not what I'm saying at all and you know it. If someone who's never been a soldier comes on and makes a valid point that's not totally fucking obvious and redundant then that's fine, but at the moment all the reasons against are bullshit kneejerk received wisdom claptrap liberal bollocks.

But anyway -- Roger if you are okay with the 'moral' aspect of it, cool. I dunno what it would be like being married in the army -- and if no-one else does I guess this thread is dead because apparently you have to have lived through these things to know about them.

Ronan had to ask Jonny Cigarettes before he started writing about music. Nick had to settle for Tommy Udo.

Yes, Craig, In the light of your comments, I'm surprised I was talked into retracting my initial reasons. Looking at them again, they seem pretty obvious once again. Why did I retract them? I always have had a weak character. Maybe a stint in the army would help there!

One more question: if I'm a techniciam maintaining a tank, am I therefore not involved in the war machine - or at least, no more than someone drinking Snapple? Rereading it,I'm not sure about that one.

I am not saying that AT ALL; what I am saying is that if all anybody who's not been in the military can come up with is guff like "you might get shot" etcetera etcetera ad fucking infinitum, then you ought to talk to people who've been through it and a recruiter and get facts from the horse's mouth.

Er Nick, I know these arguments about killing and getting shot at and whatnot are obvious... but they aren't off the mark are they? I mean the US army DOES go around invading places and torturing people, right? Or is that just liberal propaganda?

16 (I think) - you like it so much you don't want to leave after "a few years".

Has anyone else read this? I thought it was a great book - both because it really humanized the soldiers and also gave me a different point of view about how they think about war.

It's gotten some good reviews from veterans.. I'm curious what the anti-war crowd thinks...

"You might get shot" isn't the most original reason for not joining the army but it's hardly "guff". People in the US Army *are* being shot. Today.

That said, the risk is minimal in terms of overall numbers, especially if you're working as a technician in a support area.
I'm not sure about the US but certainly a few good years in the services can work wonders for future employment in the civil service or the defence industry, particularly for those with a good technical background.

18. jesus Pete, you're fucking 50 years old. it's a little late innit.

You should be working from the assumption that you'd be signing up for the least desirable service and if you're lucky getting something cushy and danger/violence-free.

Excerpt from the first entry:

Sergeant First Class Daniel Anderson [name altered] was confused because all he saw when he looked at me was what I wrote in the introduction; a rising VP at a Fortune 500 company, dressed in a $1500 suit, making more money than I could spend with a beautiful fiancée and a certain future. But he didn’t know the whole story:

"I hate my life. I hate who I have become. I hate that I have nothing to show for my efforts, nothing that in my mind, defines me as a man. Honestly, I haven’t done anything that makes me truly proud of myself. I’m not happy with who I am or what I do.”

Hoo-ah.net

Okay, seriously, I don't think you should do this, and not even because of the war in Iraq or whatever. Although you would certainly gain some benefits in the long run, I think you'd be pretty miserable. At least, that's my impression. You'd have to give up a lot of your personal freedoms, which I know you find important. Personally, I couldn't do it. I have way too much dislike of authority, for starters. I respect and admire those who can, though I know I can't. Keep trying to find stuff in Knoxville, something will turn up, I'm sure.

HKM, you still fail to understand - I'm not going into this morally / politically accepting any of it.

Again, this is truly naïve. You might think you're being sneaky and taking $$$ from the government all the while thinking "I'm pulling the wool over their eyes," but you'd be fooling yourself. I'm not saying you'll get brainwashed once enlisting or anything, but if you indicate in the slightest that you're skeptical of a) "some" wars, b) "some" fellow soldiers of the hyper-jingoistic strain, c) "some" politicians like (oh, I dunno) Rumsfeld, you will find yourself passed over for promotions and, thereby, the financial rewards that are your sole purpose for joining in the first place, just the same as a bad attitude at an office job (or Wal-Mart) will keep you on the first rung of the corporate ladder.

I'd like to take it, but it took me two years after high school to get recruiters to stop calling. (apparently decent grades/test scores+not going away to college looks like prime recruit material?)

Still, though it's doubtful you'll come out of the experience wanting to shoot Asians, or Arabs, or what have you... fact of the matter is that you'll likely be working with your fair share of people that secretly (and not so secretly) aren't averse to the idea. They'll be the minority, obv, but they'll be very annoying.

"They told us if we don't re-enlist, then we'd have to be reassigned. And where we're most needed is in units that are going back to Iraq in the next couple of months. So if you think you're getting out, you're not," he said.

...

Under current Army practice, members of Iraq-bound units are "stop-lossed," meaning they could be retained in the unit for an entire year in Iraq, even if their active-duty enlistment expires.

...

Extending a soldier's active duty is within Army authority, since the enlistment contract carries an eight-year obligation, even if a soldier signs for only three or four years of active duty.

Generally high incidences of psychopathy are found in all fields which could be loosely described as 'very risky and dangerous'. This includes fire fighting, burglary, the stock market and of course the military, which has always had a very high incidence of psychopathy and is of great interest to researchers for that reason.

the military exists to defend against attack and fight wars. There are social benefits (thanks to government incentives to join), but I think you ought to admit that you're joining the army. Soldiers kill people sometimes. That's their job.

I'd wait until after November 2nd before you sign anything.

a. Major Major getting beat up on the basketball court after they made him squadron commander, well, actually his whole life story in general

b. Doc Daneeka moving to Lansing, MI and leaving no forwarding address

c. Fucking Aarfy not getting his while everybody else starts to bite it one after the other

2. I also can't decide who's really my favorite at the end:

a. Yossarian, taking off for Sweden

b. Chaplain Tappman, persevering and deciding to stand up for himself and everybody else (punching Captain Black in the face, YES).

The syndicate benefits when I benefit, and everybody has a share.

According to Jon Letman at Truthout, recruiters are looking for the next generation of human sausage for their grinders:

"Kindergarteners -- children with Dora the Explorer and Spiderman backpacks and bedrooms full of stuffed animals who are still working to master their A-B-C's -- are now targets for early conditioning by the US military. Never mind that Hawaii's schools have just cut almost 10 percent of classroom time, dropping the state's public schools' instructional days down to the fewest in the nation. Teacher furloughs or not, time was found for the Army National Guard to give a pitch (and a gift) to wide-eyed five-year-olds."

http://www.truthout.org/1117091

http://dennisperrin.blogspot.com/2009/11/children-of-grave.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-recruits_05met.ART0.State.Edition1.35da4c7.html

This thread is quite an enjoyable read. Lotsa angry people.

He didn't do it, did he?

did he fuck

am I remembering correctly in thinking that r0ger adult3ry is W00den W4nd?

PROS:
-- military tradition in my family, father, both grandfathers, one of my great-grandfathers were all in the air force
-- will give direction to my aimless life
-- job security
-- not bothered by people shouting at me; history of entry-level jobs has made me accepting of authority
-- not bothered by physical discomfort
-- fitness aspect is attractive and i don't mind doing pushups or running
CONS:
-- i grew up on military bases. military culture is sort of disgusting.
-- might end up living somewhere shitty

is there an intention to employ your language proficiency to get into some niche unit or whatever

If you grew up on military bases you have a pretty basic idea of what you'd be in for, except that, being a child growing up, you'd have had a less than perfect insight into the whole magilla and its effect on an adult consciousness. Once you're in, you're all the way in, and what you are is a cog in a machine that was not created to make sense or give meaning to its cogs. This affects different people different ways. Think hard about it before you leap.

yeah... i know that with a university degree, there are lots of options. i think it'd be cool to do the route of basic training -> cf school of military intelligence -> work as intelligence officer. but i need to actually talk to a recruiter.

i feel you, aimless. growing up on military bases you see how corrosive, i guess is a word for it, the military culture is. my dad joined the military at 17, was drunk for most of the next 30 years, hated nearly every second of his time in uniform, hated his superiors, hated the system, etc. my mom who grew up in the same kind of situation while her dad flew sabres and drank himself to death was suddenly living the life of her mother, singleparenting while her husband was in haiti or the golan heights or wherever for three quarters of the year and mostly missing in action even when he was around.

strategic analysis seems kinda cool. i'd do that.

Recruiters are notorious for telling you less than the whole truth in order to get you signed up. If they tell you the military will enter into a contract to put you in a particular slot of your choosing, like military intelligence, so long as you meet certain criteria that you are confident of meeting, then remember that the military can break any contract simply by citing military necessity. If they need kitchen managers, you will become a kitchen manager. No way out.

of course and i'd actually be down to sign up even without much in the way of guarantees. i probably shouldn't have that attitude but i don't really care about what i end up doing.

don't join the military dylann

i know it's the canadian military and all, but from what little i know of you, this doesn't seem like a good idea. phrases like "i don't care about what i end up doing" make it seem like an even worse idea, like you are thinking about this due to desperation.

part of it is desperation, i guess. i just got a job, working in the oil&gas industry, wearing a hard hat but making somewhere around 60k a year before bonuses and everything. i hate the job, though. i've been told i should be able to make a living based on my degree + skills but that seems not to be the case, unless maybe i live in china. i'd like to live in china, actually. but i'm in love with a girl that plans to do her masters degree at a school here and would probably like to live in canada for the next several years at least. i'd like to at least be in the same country as her. i should probably just wait for her to get here and get a job working overnight at a hotel front desk down the road from our basement apartment. the military is appealing because it removes some key decisions from my life about where i live and what i do, new experiences, discipline.

treeship, give me some advice.

you can't control where you live if you're in the military. you could end up on the opposite side of the country from yer girl, plus the military eats up all of your time and dignity -- especially at first -- so if preserving this relationship is a priority i would say the military is a bad idea. what aspects of your current job do you hate? 60k before bonuses sounds not bad; it's definitely "making a living".

we've lived apart for the last 8 months. she visited me in guangzhou in november, i think. it was fine. we've been together for six years. she's going to be living in a smallish university town in canada. when she said she was coming back, i told her about my job and she said, "stay there and work, you can pay for my apartment here." but i'm not sure what that means. i just told her i was going to join the military and she kind of freaked out, so that's a strike against that plan.

see, complaining about the job, the obvious thing to say is OH AND YOU WANT TO JOIN THE MILITARY, BUD? the job is in the oil&gas sector, visiting remote sites in the north and basically checking on health&safety stuff, surveying worker morale?, talking to foremen about company policy on hr/h&s stuff, writing reports. starting next week it will involve usu 1 week away from home, weekends off. i have very little idea what i'm supposed to do or where i'm supposed to be. 90% of my time this week has been spent driving and listening to talk radio. i also don't want to live in northern alberta.

yeah, you shouldn't be living up there either. i guess i don't have direct advice, except to say that i'm sure there is some kind of solution that doesn't involve going into the military, which would involve a relinquishment of freedom for the payoff of not having to worry about the things you're currently worried about. i think people get blinkered when they feel stuck, and they forget that the problems that currently oppress them, even though they seem like the worst thing ever, are not really the worst thing ever. there are always worse things and it's very possible that a military career is one of those worse things, especially for someone who described military culture as "sort of disgusting."

i come from like a long line of non, even anti-military folks though. my grandfather purposefully flunked the nyc civil service exam in the 30s because he couldn't stand the idea of becoming a cop, which is the career his uncles were pushing him into. i can't imagine existing within the authoritarian structure of the military, but maybe you can, having grown up around it.

treeship otm

you know, a week ago and the time prior to that, it was one of the first times in recent memory i felt seriously depressed, hopeless, and i guess i was desperately looking for a radical solution. i did go to see the recruiter. i was offered a chance to go to their intelligence whatever school, fasttrack to that position, etc. it would probably be a sound decision, but i wasn't thinking clearly about it.

i quit my job on friday. told everyone i had a new job starting monday. frantically applied for new jobs that afternoon. got a call on monday. interview on tuesday. started my new job on wednesday. and i'm really satisfied with it, more than i've ever been satisfied with a job before, even though it's only been a four days. i work with great people and yeah... it was a good decision.

thanks, guys.

yo man, that's awesome. it takes a lot of guts to do all that, and i'm happy to hear you're in a better place

yeah

Nice man

glad to hear it dylannn

yeah um i guess i would say i'm unaccustomed to the broken thought processes of depression because it's thankfully been a long time. anxiety over the relatively minor issue of hating my job became an unsolvable crisis involving every part of my life, and i couldn't think about anything rationally. -- one reason i hate my old old ilx posts being dredged up is because, man, they're fucked up, i was having serious problems. and looking back, i can't really say, like: this is how i stopped being depressed and anxious. i have, like, irrational romantic beliefs and superstitions about how i "cured" it (but, like, not some witchcraft positive thinking new age? sort of psychology hocus pocus, i dunno, and also it involved paxil) but really, I DON'T EVEN KNOW. -- there's lots of talk on ilx, i think, about depression and anxiety (depression what's it really like, severe anxiety thread) and when i read those it's usually pretty close to what i experienced but i have no advice because i'm better and i got through it but i have no idea why or how. -- when i have problems like this, i don't really have a go-to coping mechanism or anything. so, i'm happy to hear from my ilx friends in times of need. :)