Nico T-shirts at New Look, OMG, WTF?

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I'm sorry, this just really bothers me. Plus getting the dates all wrong (1973? huh?) and mangling "Chelsea Underground".

I know this makes me sound like I'm turning into Alex in NYC, but this just fills me with rage. I mean, WTFFFFFF?!?!?!?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:29 (twenty-one years ago)

And ponchos? What SADISTIC FREAK decided to bring those back, huh?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:32 (twenty-one years ago)

B-b-but I like ponchos. :-(

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:33 (twenty-one years ago)

PinX0r! That's it, we can't be friends any more!

Ponchos just remind me of being 10! And girl scout camp! And macrame! Ugh!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Well if you were a girl scout what do you expect?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but we got to start fires in Girl Scouts!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude we did that in parks & outside supermarkets!!
I don't know what a Nico t-sgirt is either?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:42 (twenty-one years ago)

A t-shirt with Nico on it. I'm still disturbed.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd post a picture of it, but I can't get their website to work, dammit!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Dude, you *are* turning into ANYC. You'll be bellowing at people to raise their standards and going on about pabalum next.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:50 (twenty-one years ago)

That's it? Why is it bothering you so much?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:51 (twenty-one years ago)

But... but... I don't have any children and I don't own any Killing Joke records!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:52 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post...

I don't know, it just bothers me that 12 year olds will be walking around with Nico on their chests, not knowing a bloody thing about her or her music. I also just kind of have a problem with 12 year olds walking around with junkies on their chests, but hey, that's a bit Nancy Reagan of me, you should at least be old enough to drink before you start fetishising drug abuse.

Plus, well... THEY'RE COOL LOOKING SHIRTS, AND I'D WANT ONE IF IT WASN'T SODDING NEW LOOK AND THEY DIDN'T GET IT ALL MANGLED!!!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 07:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Well how would I look in a New Look 'Nico' t-shirt if I didn't know who in thye hell 'Nico' was?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I hear you can buy Rocket USA t-shirts at Mr Byrite these days.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:03 (twenty-one years ago)

GGGAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!

See, call me old fashioned, but I just don't think that anyone should be wearing t-shirts if they don't understand the artist or the imagery used on them.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:05 (twenty-one years ago)

See, it was one thing when it was idiot fuX0rs wearing ironic Motorhead t-shirts and the like, but this is NICO!!! Is nothing sacred, etc.?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Well to be fair, half the ppl wearing them wont know that there is any imagery to be understood!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Kt: I agree WRT to ponchos! However I think Nico on a t-shirt is k3wl, but you know, I don't actually like Nico that much myself!! No, in the VU wars I'm definitely a John Cale-ist. NOW, John Cale on a t-shirt, that would rawk.

Pink - Nico sang with the Velvet Underground. Plonk her into Google innit. Very highly rated by everyone apart from ME it seems chiz.

(Also Nu Look is not so bad!! What's with the hatorade!)

― Starry (hello chickens), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think New Look is that bad, I don't have a problem with it at all. Thanks for letting me know who Nico is. I couldn't be bothered to google!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I have nothing against New Look. I'm wearing a New Look t-shirt right now, in fact.

I'm just against mangled Nico t-shirts! I mean, for f*cks sake... "Chelsea Underground"?!?!? That's CHelsea GIRLS or VELVET Underground.

(It's probably not even Nico after all, the screen printing is of such poor quality.)

But my lord, a John Cale New Look t-shirt. I will shoot myself if that ever happens, boyo.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:10 (twenty-one years ago)

I really don't understand why this is bothering you so much!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Luella Bartley consults for them and *she* knows who Nico is (LB used to live with Fr1$¢hmann and is married to rock/fashion photographer David Sims, the world's biggest Patti Smith fan).

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:15 (twenty-one years ago)

i would wait to see if 12 year old girls actually buy Nico t-shirts at least...even if they do it's not really a problem if you just think of it as recontextualised iconography (how Warholian, oh the ironing)

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but you can't tell me that the 12 year olds buying them know who Nico is!

Come on, they couldn't even *buy* a Nico album, due to the parental advisory stickers all over them. So why dress them up in Nico shirts that they don't understand?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:18 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post, Stevem, I'm not buying that.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Some people I know decided to name their about-to-be-born SON Nico, about five years ago, without Clue One about thee Nico (the name also having zero ethnic relevance for these folks). My explanation of the possible connotations of such a choice made no odds to them, but what can you do. The kid's OK so far, anyhow.

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with Kate. Although I may be a dubious ally because I'm mental and believe that basically clothing shouldn't have any words or pictures on it at all.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:20 (twenty-one years ago)

(Nico was actually originally a man's name - in fact, IIRC, Nico renamed herself after a friend with the same name, so I'm not that bothered about a boy being named it, because after all, it is just a name. What's bothering me is the iconography of someone's face being used, their references mangled, to sell t-shirts to 12 year olds. Sigh.)

x-post...

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:21 (twenty-one years ago)

the '12 year olds' thing is just fucking lame and old. Grown women shop at New Look - they can wear a t-shirt with Nico's face on it without knowing or caring who Nico is. Stuff doesn't have to mean what it's supposed to mean. I still prefer to think Andy would approve (or at least, he wouldn't get all prissy about it).

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Well yeah Arch, I wouldn't wear something with anybody's name across the front!
x-post
I agree with Stevem for what it's worth!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i want a T-shirt with Terry Nutkins on it. now that's keeping it real.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

are they like this?

http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/01/9a/21/85_1.JPG

(newlook website gives me two different errors and the page clicking things don't work. the above is from ebay)

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Steve I kiss you.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Excuse me, but Andy != Nico and it's really insulting to equate the two.

Sure, grown women shop at New Look, but this was in the teen section.

I think I'm coming more and more around to Archel's way of thinking, and just disapproving of words on t-shirts at all, but that might just be me being a curmudgeon.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Is there any evidence that that sales of AC/DC and Ramones records actually increased after the big Top Shop rock t-shirt boom of a couple of years ago?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I want a shirt with Nicko (McBrain) on it.

― Bryan (Bryan), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

x-post galore... but no, that's not the shirt. It's kind of Jefferson Airplaney sort of lettering (West Coast? Nico? Wrong!) and has a picture of her, and says something like "Rock star 1973" (excuse me, but wasn't Nico Pop Girl in '65 or '66?) and "Chelsea Underground" on it. The thing that offends me the most is that they can't even be bothered to GET IT RIGHT!!!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I hated those t-shirts that said 'mary is my homegirl'! But not as much as I hated the ppl I saw wearing them, it has to be said.
x-post
Bryan - I kiss you!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm gonna get one of these Nico tees & wear it to my housewarming party & Kate, YOU are gonna dig it the most! ;-)

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I knew it was originally a male name -- my disquiet had to do with the whole heroin/death thing associated with its most famous bearer. Perhaps the larger point is that for people who exist in different cultural spheres, the name "Nico" as well as Nico's actual image have just not got the same resonance as they did for some of us, and never will.

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps it was more from this kind of view Snazz?!!
http://images.tradera.com/842/4701842_1.jpg

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah, Snazz, at least someone understands my pain.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:32 (twenty-one years ago)

nostalgia iconography on dominates High St and market stall t-shirt rails now. Autobot insignias* and heroin-addled indie bints for all!

*Dammit, these 8 year old kids just don't understand what 'Arrival From Cybertron' really meant for my generation

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:32 (twenty-one years ago)

haha pink, now THAT's a t-shirt i'd wear

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:33 (twenty-one years ago)

*high fives stevem*

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Does anyone think that maybe there's a difference between "cultural iconography" and "individual"? Kurt Cobain t-shirts offend me, but on a different level.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, my. ...Um, I seriously doubt it, knowing the people in question. ...I also doubt they would appreciate my bringing this latest tidbit to their (and/or their son's) attention, but I still might, since it is so clearly a cinematic landmark.

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, what am I talking about? I'm a hypocrite. I wore "Sid Vicious Action Man" t-shirts in 1985, and thought it was hilarious.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:36 (twenty-one years ago)

You're right of course, perhaps we should all be calling our children 'Cliff' & 'Dolly'!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha ha, at least the kids on the Delays Board knew how to stop me raging about this...

http://www.freeupload.net/users/uploads/img_4104.jpg

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

is this any worse than those Motorhead t-shirts i used to see in Tammy(?)?

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

to be honest i don't think i've ever worn a t-shirt with a human face on it, that as a motif/icon never seemed to appeal to me. less guilt with fictional characters? i can understand WHY it upsets kate (and other people i know), but things aren't so black/white - right/wrong. reminded again of use of 'Venus In Furs' in advert - pissed off the purists no end, but how would they have preferred 11 year old me to have first heard that track i wonder?

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

No of course not, but I don't see the point in getting worked up over it!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

At least in an ad or something, it is exposing new people to the music. I can see why that upsets people, but I can also understand why it's good for both artists (pays their bills) and for potential fans.

Maybe it's just because I perceive "fashion" as something inferior, that I just see appropriating someone's face and image as a fashion statement (especially completely out of context) to be an insult rather than a homage.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe the designer intended to insult?

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm going to just ignore you and keep looking at the dirty rock ass.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, have seen the t-shirts. Also the edie sedgewick ones too.

Amber and Alice thought they were nice, but they didn't get them. They both have the pink ponchos fwiw.

I have two Killing Joke singles, do I qualify?

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:48 (twenty-one years ago)

My kids are probably going to hate me because I'm going to make them wear shapeless unbranded sacks. Or least something that's their OWN fashion statement, not a previous generation's as diluted by New Look or whoever.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think you can separate cultural and individual iconography that easy - how does Nico differ from Monroe, Hepburn etc in this regard?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Or least something that's their OWN fashion statement, not a previous generation's as diluted by New Look or whoever.

SOOO OTM THE MONEY IS PRESSING SEXUAL HARRASSMENT CHARGES!!!

I think that's something else important that bothers me about it.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

OTOH, we could just be old and square and Not Getting It. I am prepared to accept that.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:52 (twenty-one years ago)

"Never mind the bollocks" t-shirts in New Look.

It could happen. It probably has already...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:53 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, at least when I was 15, I bothered getting my Sid Vicious shirt from a dodgy record shop in the East Village. I found it offensive enough that kids could just go to the MALL and buy this stuff at Hot Topic, rather than doing any research of their own and forming opinions or tastes of their own... but New Look is just a step too far. Grrr.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure your kids will really thank you when you refuse to let them get the latest new look clothes to enable them to 'fit in' like most kids want to do. Maybe those kids that were rocking really odd clothes at school were making fashion statements, if only ppl would have known this they might no have been bullied so much!!
x-post
Maybe they did research kate & just thought it was easier to get the stuff from the regular store.

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Alice, I just dropped off at Nursery, with the "Best of the Housemartins" CD she wanted to play for everybody there.

It's not the clothes, its the mind.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:57 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe it's just naff trying to show people you're down with X and Y and care more than they do by what you wear, and NL designers are reacting against that. just another suggestion there...

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, if they'd done the research, they would have known that the t-shirt was ALL WRONG!!!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 08:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I was only joking about the sacks... hopefully I will bring my kids up to know their own mind (and to have better taste than to wear naff New Look t-shirts) and when they're old enough to pick their own clothes they can.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:02 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm trying and failing to think of some icon from the 40s or 50s whose image would upset older people by being cluelessly worn on a t-shirt. Extreme self-destructiveness was just not as commodified back then, it seems, or not in the same way.

Don't worry about me, I'm chill. I'm just bored and can't sleep.

xpost times about 20

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:04 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think there's much of a difference between hot topic and new look, actually...

(undecided about the rest of the argument. i don't really wear tshirts with pictures on, so it doesn't really apply to me personally. well, i did buy a curious george tshirt. but he didn't mind, i asked him. and he's not a junkie, either. i think it's a little silly for kids to wear shirts of bands/artists that they don't even know, but then again, they probably think it's just some picture of a girl and random words that don't really mean anything. which is probably part of kate's problem, but i don't know if i hate that or not.)

― colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I suspect the t-shirt is 'wrong' not due to ignorance but due to thorny copyright issues.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:05 (twenty-one years ago)

In a friend of mine's parish a couple named their kid Coriolanus. They hadn't read the play, but had seen the title and liked it. And aside from the upleasantness of the character, the kid has 'anus' in his name.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, thinking about the 40s & 50s, I kind of wonder about the commodification of the image of James Dean as this self destructive rebel. I don't think that even raises an eyebrow with anyone. Maybe the studios had more control over their stars' images (Montgomery Clift?) but people fetishise James Dean specifically *for* the dying young and stupidly rebel thing.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I suspect the t-shirt is 'wrong' not due to ignorance but due to thorny copyright issues.

If it is a copyright issue, then it means that SOMEONE still owns the copyright and is perhaps being sensitive or respectful or something... I don't know. Copyright theft bothers me, too! Argh!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I have two nephews. One called James and one called Dean.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Dawn's sister has two kids. One called Alex and one called James. One for you Blur fans.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark, your sibling and sibling-in-law need slaps for that.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

... Or least something that's their OWN fashion statement, not a previous generation's as diluted by New Look or whoever.

there's a word for this. and i think it rhymes with 'blockism'. how in the fuck is wearing a sid vicious t-shirt in 1992 any different from this?????????

― HKM, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:09 (twenty-one years ago)

If it was intentional, that is.

― Ricardo (RickyT), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:10 (twenty-one years ago)

It actually wasn't.

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

> is this any worse than those Motorhead t-shirts i used to see in Tammy?

actually, it obviously is because a) the motorhead t-shirts kept the original design pretty much intact (and weren't just thrown together, badly researched, iconic images) and b) motorhead probably got recompensed for this (whereas i doubt nico('s estate) will see anything)

and Andy probably would've approved. but i also doubt his lawyers would let them get away with this. 8)

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

My bassist has nephews named Alex and James. It was unintentional, but it cracked me up.

Thankfully, I wasn't still wearing a Sid Vicious shirt in 1992. In 1985, Sid Vicious was still culturally close enough to my own generation to have some relevance, thanks.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

PinXorchiXoR: No no no -- name kids whatever you like, but personally I wouldn't use the same very unusual name as a famous dead junkie, simply because I happen to have this set of associations with the name. If people don't have those associations, then no problem, but as Danger Whore observed, it's the very lack of context that is bothersome -- DW at least knew who Sid Vicious was, even if she(?) now finds that kind of fashion stance dodgy at best.
Well now I've already told you why your friends named their boy thusly!! ;-)
http://www.affichescinema.com/insc_n/nico.jpg
Wouldn't it be funny if Kate (DW) was a boy & was getting so riled about New Look clothes!!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Dawn's sister was talking about other names she liked. She quite liked Ashley for a boy. And a bit later, mentioned Laura for a girl.

I was "WHERE DO YOU WORK?"

She was "oh my god." In lowercase like that...

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:13 (twenty-one years ago)

and Andy probably would've approved. but i also doubt his lawyers would let them get away with this. 8)

See, this is another thing that upsets me. Maybe Andy's (and his lawyers) would have approved, but would NICO have approved, or Nico's estate?

x-post...

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:14 (twenty-one years ago)

xyz-post And having a name that is only funny in connection with another person, like some power ranger, isn't that bad or likely to cause you much trouble.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely they'd have to seek some kind of approval? I mean I could print up a load of 'Delays' t-shirts (I mean I wouldn't of course, god as if!) & sell them. The delays wouldn't be too happy about this & I would be open to all sort of court cases, wouldn't I?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

In 1985, Sid Vicious was still culturally close enough to my own generation to have some relevance, thanks.

well, let's unpack this: how is nico *not* relevant to today's 16-year-olds? or, further, isn't is a matter of choice what is or is not relevant? you may have thought that sid was relevant in 1985, for whatever reason, but that wasn't an objective 'fact'; likewise if today's kidz *want* nico to speak to/for them, what's the problem?

― HKM, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:16 (twenty-one years ago)

how in the fuck is wearing a sid vicious t-shirt in 1992 any different from this?????????

It's not.

Oh xxxxxpost.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you think kids are actually buying this shirt because it's *NICO* on it? Or are they just buying some superficially "cool" 60s design t-shirt?

Maybe I should give today's teenagers the benefit of the doubt, and think that just maybe they might recognise her, but I really doubt that they do.

It's all different kinds of wrong!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:18 (twenty-one years ago)

DW/Kate probably right re James Dean. My ex-boyfriend's mother had some sort of James Dean fixation, but I never talked to her about it at all, much less the dark side of it. Wonder if a crappy t-shirt with his face and a nonsequitur-ish date on it would've offended her. Seems possible.

McLaren and Westwood made a t-shirt that said something about Brian Epstein's death and putative S&M proclivities, didn't they? Along with several other very entertaining ones with pedophilia and rape themes. I'm sure the kids hanging out at Sex and buying and wearing the stuff had very sophisticated analyses about all that.

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

"My other T-shirt is more confrontational!"

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

And x-post, it was 1985, not 1992.

Wearing a Sid Vicious shirt in 1985 was like listening to my older brother's records.

Wearing a Nico shirt in 2004 is like listening to your GRANDparents' records.

That said, that isn't my problem with the shirt. If anyone actually listened to their grandparents' records, they might actually learn something. It's the use of a person's image, detached not just from their own personality, but from their own cultural reference, and just chucked on a random t-shirt because it "looks cool" regardless of who they are or what they represent, that I find bothersome. And sorry if that makes me an old curmudgeon.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

bcz i am BAWD unto DEATH with the VU-Ig-Pistols lineage, i suppose i couldn't care less whether the 16-year-olds know or care who is on their t-shirt: to them and to me saying 'it's *NICO*' may be less than meaningful. if they use it to their own ends, fine.

― HKM, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah but that's how Nico got the job with the VU in the first place..

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

"My other T-shirt is more confrontational!"
Hahahahahahahahaha!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:23 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't see the connection between someone being 'relevant' and wanting to put an image of them on your clothes. It's just icky. But then I hate the whole concept of icons/role models, I think it's stupid and shallow and lazy. If that makes me a rockist (though I don't understand why) then so be it.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm looking forward to actually SEEING a 12 year old girl wearing a Nico T-shirt now. Maybe she'll actually be from Chelsea...

It's the use of a person's image, detached not just from their own personality, but from their own cultural reference, and just chucked on a random t-shirt because it "looks cool" regardless of who they are or what they represent

i know this is different from what Warhol did, not least because of the output format and the fact it's a production line commodity, but still i thought of him, again

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:26 (twenty-one years ago)

given the the factory scene's heroin-whiff vileness, nico is fortunate to be detached from association with it.

― HKM, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I can just about understand the relevance of identifying with an artist or a cultural image to the point of wanting to put it on your chest. I still own band t-shirts, though I don't wear them nearly as often as I did when I was a teenager, because I'm more secure in my *own* image and identity, and don't feel the need to adopt someone else's.

But to me, this is more offensive, because on some level, images, cultural or otherwise, *do* have significance, *especially* if it is a person's face - regardless of whether the person wearing it is wearing it as a statement, or whether they're just wearing it cause it was a cool shirt they bought in a high street shop.

In some cases, that significance bothers me. And it bothers me more when people wear or flaunt symbols (or especially people's actual faces) without knowing a bloody thing about the symbol they are flaunting. Ignorance is not an excuse, it somehow makes it worse to me.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:29 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm making the connection because of the concept rather than who the subject is

xpost

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

See also, how many kinds of upset I get when I see tossers in the London scene wearing Confederate Flag t-shirts because they think they're just "cool" without knowing any of the cultural significance attached.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:30 (twenty-one years ago)

does anyone have grandparents who listen to nico? :-)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:31 (twenty-one years ago)

12 year olds may well do.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Probably. I mean, if my "sister" had ever had kids, like many of other friends did when we were 18, then that child would now be a teenager with a Nico-listening grandparent. (Well, deceased, but still.)

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:33 (twenty-one years ago)

haha i was going to refer to that earlier - these bastards surely couldn't enjoy Dukes Of Hazzard on as many levels as I did?

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:34 (twenty-one years ago)

i think you're making too many assumptions tho Kate. still it's all very thought-provoking. a face can be so powerful when used this way, tho in this case i don't think it says much at all. in relative terms the message or lack of is quite harmless. but imagine a t-shirt with Nelson Mandela's face on it with the legend 'freedom fighter' on it. then imagine the same t-shirt but with the word 'terrorist' instead.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:35 (twenty-one years ago)

::sticks fingers in ears::

La la la, la, I can't hear you, all I can see is a talking ass...

http://www.freeupload.net/users/uploads/img_4104.jpg

x-post, whoops...

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:36 (twenty-one years ago)

a face can be so powerful when used this way, tho in this case i don't think it says much at all. in relative terms the message or lack of is quite harmless. but imagine a t-shirt with Nelson Mandela's face on it with the legend 'freedom fighter' on it. then imagine the same t-shirt but with the word 'terrorist' instead.

Weeellllll...

But actually, no, this is the sort of thing that I do think it's important to discuss. Sure, people can say "what do you care, it's just some dumb celebrity" etc. etc. but it does change if you change the image slightly, the use of words, the association, all those kinds of things.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:39 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, at least when I was 15, I bothered getting my Sid Vicious shirt from a dodgy record shop in the East Village.

i had a sid & nancy t-shirt when i was 12 (1988). bought from one of the dodgy st. mark's t-shirt shops run by cranky pakistanis. cuz i'm hardcore like that. (hahaha.)

NOW, John Cale on a t-shirt, that would rawk

agreed!

i wonder if kids today ("kids today") know nico from the royal tenenbaums soundtrack. i knew who she was when i was ten or eleven because i somehow acquired a cheapo cassette of the velvet underground and nico. yeah, i probably would have worn the t-shirt, but not for another couple of years.

― Cripps Pink (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd like to see more criticism or satire on t-shirts. Nico t-shirts could come with the legend 'meh' or 'anyone who speaks German can't be bad' attached.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

how about a nico t-shirt with "you know how she died, right?" written on it?

― Cripps Pink (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Perfect!!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

"Bicycles Are Dangerous!"

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

you can get these t-shirts with murderous icon Carlos The Jackal on them as well can't you? i blame Black Grape

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

"Don't go riding bicycles out in Ibiza"

(to the tune of Don't go hunting tigers out in India, Bonzo Dog fans!)

― mark grout (mark grout), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Did Nico sell that many records? She had a look, I guess (btw, I can't see any of the pics on this thread).

starry - lots of people despise Nico - I'm sure you know that Tim hopkins hates her and anything to do with the velvet underground. you are not on yr own.

What is the copyright situation on this - sorry but I seem to have missed talk of this - is her state getting a penny from this?

I will listen to 'the end' tonight.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh.

It's a case of Use Other Iconography Please really isn't it. In fact don't use any. What is so bad about your own identity that you have to patch one together from dead people? Yuck.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

"POUR CE FLIC, PERSONNE N'EST AU-DESSUS DE LA LOI."

I think I'll make a t-shirt for my friends' five-year-old son with that image on the front.

My other T-shirt is more confrontational

Again, ha!

Another friend of mine, a peaceful artist guy, made a completely insane t-shirt after the World Trade Center attacks that could've gotten him beaten up if he'd ever worn it without a button-down shirt over it, which he didn't, not being stupid or masochistic -- he just needed to make it.

It'd be an awful world if nobody ever got offended about anything. We are very far from that, though, so not to worry.

I can tell it's past my bedtime when I start free-associating like this.

P.S. Whose ass is that, anyway?

xpost x 1000

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:53 (twenty-one years ago)

That is Carl Barat's ass. I would wear that on a t-shirt. And then be beaten up by Libertines fans because I freaking hate the band.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 09:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Snazz, whereabouts are you?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 10:00 (twenty-one years ago)

i also had an abbie hoffman t-shirt when i was a teen. wouldn't it be hilarious if little kids started wearing those blindly just cuz they looked cool?

and to think, "bart simpson: underachiever" shirts were banned from my school for sending out the wrong message.

― Cripps Pink (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 10:01 (twenty-one years ago)

> completely insane t-shirt after the World Trade Center

those 'I (plane) NY' t-shirts made me laugh, somehow (i fear for my sense of humour sometimes). but, yes, where would you wear one?

(answer: France?)

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 10:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that a Mexican poncho or a Sears poncho?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:29 (twenty-one years ago)

It's kinda interesting that the people who seem really really against this, like Kate and Archel, are the ones who are actually artists, while useless parasites like me might see being reconfigured, misunderstood and appropriated to sell low-quality t-shirts to teen hordes as the highest praise of all.

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:44 (twenty-one years ago)

What is so bad about your own identity that you have to patch one together from dead people?

To wear a t-shirt with someone you've never heard of on it is an interesting and modern statement of identity no? It's not for, say, me, but like how is it wholly bad?

― Gravel Puzzleworth (Gregory Henry), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I wonder how I'd react if I ever saw someone wearing a Lollies t-shirt, who wasn't in some way associated with the band. (I saw someone with one of our badges once that I didn't know. I ran away.)

We never put our faces on t-shirts, though, because I would just find that too disturbing.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

You should put your asses on t-shirts - potentially more disturbing

― Didoismus (Dada), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, K, you gotta do that!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Asses... now there's a good t-shirt idea, hrmmmm...

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Kate, can you still get Lollies t-shirts?

― the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Shortest Path... short answer is no. We still had some stock left at the end of the last tour, but Jane and I split them, and I don't think either of us can be bothered to actually sell them.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

i saw this 2 yrs ago at a market in hong kong

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/kenjuggle/osama.jpg

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

my favourite is that black one with george w bush vs osama bin laden FITE! i almost bought it

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Aww, bummmer. (xpost)

― the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

and the fact that it was just displayed there nonchalantly next to the ronaldo, owen and beckham t-shirts

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

All right, in general ponchos are evil, but now I sort of want to make one that somehow has Nico, Osama Bin Ladin, Carl Barat (as shown above) and Steven Seagal on it. I would accessorize it with the Ian Curtis bookbag that someone was talking about on ILM. The overall effect might be a little busy, but I could live with that.

PinXetc.: Minneapolis. I have a weird schedule.

― snazz, Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I like the one where it looks like it says, "Antarctica", and the one above where Osama looks a bit like he's had too much ale

― the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 11:58 (twenty-one years ago)

PinXetc.: Minneapolis. I have a weird schedule.
Haha, just type Pink, it's cool! You're up already though, jeez?!!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:05 (twenty-one years ago)

To wear a t-shirt with someone you've never heard of on it is an interesting and modern statement of identity no? It's not for, say, me, but like how is it wholly bad?

G, I am just an enemy of that definition of 'interesting and modern' I guess, which is why I think it IS wholly bad. Or, wholly boring anyway.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:14 (twenty-one years ago)

it's kind of boring but it makes girls come and talk to you about people you don't know! it's classic

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:24 (twenty-one years ago)

possibly curious stat: the only people i have known to really complain about this kind of thing are women (this was alluded to way upthread) - including three other female friends of mine in the past.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I have known guys who complained about this sort of thing. In specific, a garagerock type guy I know complaining about MC5 shirts on sale in the Gap.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Women feel more oppressed by the whims of (mainly male-created) fashion?

Haha Matt complained about that too Kate.

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

I know James was absolutely devastated when he saw Rachel (Friends) wearing an MC5 tee!

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

i think i once made a pithy comment about people who wear hoodies with 'Cuba' written on them. Che Guevara t-shirts also maybe. but these are political connotations whereas Nico and MC5 are MERE rock stars.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:37 (twenty-one years ago)

The personal *is* the political, dude.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:38 (twenty-one years ago)

depends how personal you decide to take it it would seem

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:39 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, let's take the junkie chic heroin issue, then? Is that personal, or is that political?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

if you wear one that says "dogs die in hot cars" you'd be wearing both a animal welfare statement AND rock "stars".

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:42 (twenty-one years ago)

i'd argue that junkie chic is something more applied than implied if you're just talking about an image of Nico's face. mind you if 12 year olds or whoever wear T-shirts of the Libertines album cover maybe that's different. I'm still not offended by it, I just think 'haha, that band sucks'.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:49 (twenty-one years ago)

So what makes you think that people who wear "Cuba" sweatshirts aren't just advertising their love of rum and salsa dancing, then?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:51 (twenty-one years ago)

(And am I the only person in the world who doesn't look at that Libertines album cover and think "smack" but instead thinkgs "SLASH SLASH SLASH GAY PRON ROUGH TRADE, OH MY!!!" clearly not...)

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:52 (twenty-one years ago)

or cocaine xpost

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

helluvan xpost there

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd excelsior that, coz it clearly DID make me laugh out loud, but you can't excelsior post exchanges that you are included in, can you?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:55 (twenty-one years ago)

you can if you are the straight woman!!!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

;)

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:57 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think people who wear Cuba tops are advertising anything. it just always struck me as an odd legend, but then i don't wear 'faces' either.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha 'Rough Trade'.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

A picture of two half naked boys emblazonned with ROUGH TRADE across the bottom. What am I *supposed* to think?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

when you said you don't wear faces i pictured you mean tshirts of

http://www.justcharlotte.co.uk/2003/features/Face%20Magazine/thumbs/face-cover_sm.jpg

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 13:01 (twenty-one years ago)

which kind of WOULD count as advertising

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

you're weird sir

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 13:03 (twenty-one years ago)

you must agree that it'd make quite an eyecatching t-shirt

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 13:04 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread baffles me - a lot. Who cares if 12 year olds are wearing Nico shirts?

― Towelette Pettatucci (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:25 (twenty-one years ago)

i want a Mozart t-shirt.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Who cares why ANYTHING on ILX? Honestly! For fucks sake, if you can't blow off steam about inconsequential shit on ILX, where can you blow off steam?

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

brixton bouncers!!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I had a Starsky and Hutch T-shirt in 1976. I don't think it was proper merchandise - it was from a dodgy shop on Moreton Cross and it faded very quickly.

Do carry on.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Their hands are knotted together in Carl’s lap; denim scratching over their skin as Carl tries to wriggle his fingers free. Peter shifts closer, Carl’s knees digging in sharp against his chest, and maybe Carl thinks he has won now, and Peter will just leave. Thinks Pete will slink out with his tail between his legs, or try to kiss him – some silly romantic surrender for Carl to laugh at as he kicks him out.
“Look,” Pete says, voice hard and quiet and trying to stay steady. “Look, Carl, I’m fucking begging. I’m on my fucking knees here. Is this what you want? You’re better than me, is that it? I’ll say it, I will, if that’s what you want.”
“I want you to get up, and stop making a fucking spectacle of yourself,” snarls Carl, wincing when Peter tightens his hands again, wondering if he could break their fingers together.
“A ‘spectacle’? Small wonder you’re no lyricist, Biggles, misusing innocent words like that. See, for this to be a spectacle, there’d have to be spectators. And your biased jury are out, at the moment. Speaking of that…why is it they listen to you, anyway? D’you let them fuck you?”
“Shut the fuck up.”

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Grizzle Fddkjdjo (i forget your nickname greg) once had a tshirt with Jerry the Nipper on it. (or it could have been N**k P*****t)

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but, Kate - I mean, maybe it's just me, but it just seems like something a bit silly to get worked up about? It's just a tshirt. In 2 weeks it won't even be in New Look anymore but in T.K. Maxx or something.

― Towelette Pettatucci (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Whoops, wrong window! Oh my! That wasn't supposed to go there...

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahaha the multi-tasking had to fail sometime! (If you hadn't said anything nobody would have thought it was mis-pasted, though, that's ILX for you!)

― Archel (Archel), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:34 (twenty-one years ago)

it just seems like something a bit silly to get worked up about?

this is ILX though!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

usually better known as "I love getting worked up about everything"!

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought you were being fabulously obscure, Kate. Because I think I know what you were getting at.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

kate's entitled to spout, and people are entitled to argue it. and i think i am entitled to some biscuits.

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

why does stevem get to have biscuits and not me?????!!!!!!!!!!!?

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, I'm laughing so hard I'm almost crying, I can't quite pay attention to following which thread is which when there's lines like this flying around:

“Take you and use you and fucking violate you. Own you, and it’s just me, it’s only ever me, useless fucking junkie, fuck, who else makes you scream like this?”
He snaps his hips hard into Carl, hand squeezing rough at his heavy balls, hot around his cock but not moving again, not yet. “My brother. My slut. My fucking soul…”
“Fuck,” Carl gasps, a choked bloodied scrap of a sound; pushing back against Peter, trying to force himself harder into his hand, twisting himself out of shape with pain and desire. And no, no, that’s not fucking good enough.
“Say it,” he snarls.
“Yours…fucking always, Peter, please. Please.”

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I guess nothing works me up, though.

― Towelette Pettatucci (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

If you think this is bad, you should see how I get when there's no hot chocolate mix to go in my coffee!

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Is that from Mark C's rejected kids TV scripts thread?

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus Kate, you get off on that?

― PinXorchiXoR (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

sounds like a typical episode of Harry And Kosh

― teh pow! (blueski), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:52 (twenty-one years ago)

That one was just particularly hilarious.

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Kate, please - tell me where you are getting this from. I gotta read more !

― Towelette Pettatucci (Homosexual II), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not posting the link because I don't want it to show in their referrals, but google "livej0urn@l" and "@lbi0n" and "fic"

::lays finger aside nose and winks::

― Danger Whore (kate), Wednesday, 22 September 2004 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

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