when it comes to relationships and going on the pull, how useful can the advice of "conventionally attractive" people really be for people who aren't?

It doesn't really seem like you're asking for advice. You're just cross and have thought yourself into a corner. So yeah, deal with it, ha ha.

Seriously - you can't really expect anything better then the responses you've already predicted.

Good luck. One day all this will look stupid.

Multiple X-post what Alba's said is pretty much bang on.

don't go to work out, mind (although that might help too, god knows), but rather to observe at all the absolutely stacked gym monkeys as they make love to themselves in the mirror while they push their 12 inch arms to 13. now try and notice how these dudes (almost as a general rule, its uncanny) have fixated on themselves to the point where they've excluded everyone else in the room. instead of being people in the world, its mostly just loving laser beams to the mirror: "me and me and me and ME." now imagine that there are women in the world who, despite the fact that dudes are stacked, might even consider that a bit of a turnoff. then consider the possibility that you, in your own way, are doing this too, and wrongly assuming as a result that its your "average appearance" that's keeping you from the people you want to be meeting as opposed to the more likely possibility that you are too wrapped up in your own neurosis and self-image to notice anybody else in a real and meaningful way.

(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxposts)

I've got a bit confused there. It's not my brain that makes other people find me attracitve, it's theirs.

xpost and off we go into meaningless meta-land [not that i don't deserve it]

Oh, I'm sorry. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're not ugly. I just mean that it's not because of what you look like.

mark p i understand exactly why you posted that and i appreciate that it's a valid response but in a way it's just what's so frustrating to hear because it puts the argument back into the same place it always is (plus i guess i don't mean "average appearance", i mean specifically being to most people unattractive)

ronan in a way is getting at what i'm talking about. depressing but honest.

(jaymc i assume you factor in the possibility that people mess with their styles when posting anon [or maybe they don't haha])

i am now wondering if you're a sadist! i admit there is something comforting about depression.

xpost: but ronan what if we've [i've] been working for years? what if the problem is definitely not lack of effort (tho it could cert. be misplaced effort)?

[also: i think people underestimate the extent to which their own attractions are tied to social context and social status indicators, i.e. fear of humiliation for one]

It kinda sounds like you don't want anyone to even try to help.

and of course you could always try going to the gym in order to work out. it'll get the endorphins going, even if it does nothing else.

depression isn't comforting so much as it is a way of dealing with the pain and anger of repeated disappointment. and to keep it from turning into abject hatred: i'm trying to not become one of those people who drives home each day screaming "fuck you!" at the world with their windows rolled up.

xpost roxy how about this: what advice would you give to the ugliest person you know? would you tiptoe around their looks or would you start with an open acknowledgement and work from there? i mean jesus we can only do so much eye of the beholder stuff before we come up with someone who everyone can pretty much agree, yeppers, their face makes us wince.

maybe i'm being stupid but i can't actually think of *anyone* with a face like this.

plus people tend to stick together based on things in common. it's not always true, but still, saying "my group of friends" is a little self-selecting. [took me two seconds to find a blog with a girl saying "i refuse to have ugly friends".]

do i need to do a google image search here, or what?

xpost: i skimmed that and thought it was the real ned for a second! i was pretty bewildered!

Richard D James has a beautiful French girlfriend.

I think the problem might be that when you are 'going on the pull' the rules are different - it's an arena where the beautiful people are going to have the advantage, and there's very little you can do about that. If you don't think your looks are so stunning, you are going to have to rely on having a personality to seduce people, and you'll need to look in different environments from, say, clubs or bars when trying to find someone to hook up with. Letting people get to know you (and how great you are) - perhaps in the workplace or in yoga/car maintenance/learn to speak Italian in six weeks classes or whatever - will give you the greater advantage, because (and I know this counds an awful thing to say) most people will tend to overlook physical imperfections in someone they have grown to like.

Relax and don't be so uptight - people can smell desperation and it puts them off. Be happy - people are attracted to cheerful, happy people. Be yourself.

Either that, or consider you are possibly setting your sights too high. Water finds it's own level, and things are much the same in the dating world. Improve your 'hit' rate by only asking out people who are really really ugly, bald and obese.

Failing that have lots of money to splash around.

Thread now finished.

Thank you.

From my perspective (gay, 40, single), when I'm looking through personal ads, I rarely see a guy with a great, athletic body and think "that dude's ugly." On the flip side, when I do see pictures of guys I think are ugly, it often strikes me they aren't doing themselves any favors as far as things like hairstyle and clothes. Or maybe they have a mustache (OK, that last part's probably more of a personal peeve).

So basically, there's a lot that you have the power to improve, which will make what you can't improve less significant by comparison. That's assuming you're a dude. I have no idea how this stuff works with chicks.

So what am I trying to say? I have no idea. But it sure was funny!

I think you finally have a motto, Calum.

One of THE most desired women I know personally--someone that cute interesting people (men and women) are always throwing themselves at--is not conventionally attractive AT ALL. (It had not occurred to me to think of that until I'd read this post, interestingly.) But her personality/place in life is Really Nice Rock Star: her charm and her confidence about what she does on stage are totally attractive to people.

Also: there are lots of people who have their particular buttons pushed by things that aren't necessarily GQ/Vogue material. A conventionally-super-hot friend of mine and I were talking this week about what instantly attracts us to people; she said that more than anything else, she totally has a thing for short balding guys. On behalf of all the short balding guys in the world, I feel grateful to her...

but i'd be lying if i said i didn't sympathize with logged out. lately though i feel it's largely my, uh, extraphysical (by which i don't mean 6 toes or whatever) failings that have resulted in my intense single-ness.

i was thinking about starting a thread asking how unusual my situation of never having been set up with anyone by a friend was, but i don't think i will know.

However, I am a believer, by and large, in the concept that people subconsciously are attracted to people roughly at their own level, looks-wise. This is a MASSIVE generalisation, I know, but it tends to be true. What this means, though, is that there are a lot of "ugly" people out there who are blissfully happy dating other "ugly" people.

So, a suggestion - follow Mark S's advice and go to the gym, but also start an exercise program that will help slim/bulk/tone you. It may only be superficial, but it'll be a concrete thing that you can grasp that'll make you feel better about yourself, and others will comment on it, your confidence will go up, and it also becomes self-fulfilling, only in a positive way. It works for me, anyway, and I know I'm not necessarily typical, but what works for me is the only advice I can give honestly.

mark's last paragraph is v otm (the rest probably is too, i haven't thought about it enough though); you also get the benefit of endorphins etc, which really do make a huge difference with depression. a good friend of mine stopped doing any exercise for about six months, but he started coming to the gym with me a month or so ago and already feels way better and also has girls complimenting him on his body, so as mark says it's all very self-fulfilling.

-- Alba (albab...) (webmail), October 24th, 2004 2:02 PM. (Alba) (later) (link)

actually, i think his book on lindsay anderson's if... will double as a calisthenics primer

My idea of cute is very un-standard. I know this. I think beanpole goofoffs like Thurston Moore, Beck, and even nerdy wicked funny guys like Billy West (the cartoon voice guy) are hottt.

Anyone who honestly thinks yr looks alone are it, has made a grave error. Anyone who, OTOH, spends their hours miserable and self analytical and convinced no one really likes them is probably right - because they do nothin but whinge about their lot.

And you'd know about that, would you.

Either way it is no loss to me.

With regards to the thread topic, you know, some people actually want advice, and some people just want to moan and complain endlessly. Fair enough, moaning and complaining has its place in life. So long as no one actually mistakes "wanting a bitch session" for actually "wanting advice".

This is the thing. "Un-standard" taste always turns out to be pretty fucking standard. Beck's attractive in a very conventional sense.

At my school, if you wanted to be a bit daring, you'd say you fancied Winona Ryder, rather than, say, Maria Whittaker.

But to speak of the main point, most people are roughly average & few are actually despicable to the eye. I can only recall 2 people I've known who have been genuinely unfuckably hideous - and they both made it worse by being such whingers. If you're smart, once you realise you're a freak you can flip it round to your benefit. I know a few people who are very successful at this, including an amputee & someone with severe burns to their face. Anything to get you noticed in the gloom.

And if we're going to start talking about how much we "all" (speak for yourself) "enjoy kicking Calum around every now and then" then ILx really has descended to the sorriest of states.

in a way, i think your 1st post is hinting at, if not a solution, at least a conclusion to your problem, that you're looking for some outside wisdom that will say "YES there is something MERCILESS about attractiveness, that underneath culture or 'taste' or 'personality' there is this nearly-quantifiable animal THING, some have, some don't." well, i think that's true. and if you need to stare that in the face for a while, i'm not going to tell you to buck up and go to the gym or whatever. and if you're arguing that this question, as you've asked it, does get passed over or advice-d away, then i'd agree with you.

Besides trying to build your self-confidence, one thing you can do is trying to have a style that matches with your personality. When I was younger I looked quite like a geek, yet I didn't feel like a geek and wasn't generally attracted to geeks, so my chances with the girls I *was* attracted to were probably slimmer because of my appearance. But nowadays I have style I'm quite comfortable with, which I think someway reflects who I am, and because of this I feel more confident and more attractive. I know this is still partly superficial, but at least it's something you can work on yourself.

Also, I'd like to join the choir of voices on this thread, and say this:

a) What people find attrative differs a helluva lot; even if it's a cliché, it's true.

b) Once you began to like someone as a person, it becomes less and less important what he or she looks like.

I couldn't disagree more with the one who claimed that people choose even their friends according to their appearance. Some of my friends are more conventionally pretty than others, yet all of them look pretty to me, because they're my friends and I love them, and they look exactly as they should. I think the same applies to friends as to romantic interests: the more you look like, the more pretty they looks, REGARDLESS OF THEIR PHYSICAL APPEARANCE. I admit that it's harder to break the initial ice with romantic interests, but it's still quite possible. The one friend of mine who's perhaps the most popular among boys certainly isn't the most conventionally pretty of my friends.

Also, as someone already said, one can't accuse of others of having superficial standards IF ONE HAS THEM HIMSELF. I rarely fall for anyone's looks, it's almost always the personality that does it, which means I have a lot more options to "choose" from than an superficial person would have. But if one says that Western beauty standards are wrong, yet still picks his or her romantic interests according to those standards, then there's a problem. I'm not saying this applies to you, "Logged Off", I'm just making a general note.

'Nina could get a man arrested: a green-eyed, half-Nigerian, half-Irish amazon, who gave up air hostessing to take care of him. They have been together five years. Her looks really tickle Iggy: 'I'm the old git with the chick with the bam-BOW, the Roller convertible, the little old rock band ... the kinds of happiness that eluded me at 14 are mine now!'

So I image googled Nina and found this:

http://www.bobgruen.com/potda/1101/iggynina.gif

I actually think she's pretty unattractive, with porn star breasts and a lantern jaw. Miranda Sawyer, on the other hand, is one of the most attractive women I've met:

http://www.studentnewspaper.org/features/03-04/issue09/aocmiranda.jpg

Iggy should have run off with her instead. It's a funny old world.

that's quite tragic

no.

i think iggy's girlfriend would be rowr if she took out those bizarre implants.

yes.

(x-post)

...would do just as well...

I like this game.

And Miranda is one of them! I wish I was a popstar so she could lie on my bedroom floor with me. Erm...if the floor wasn't covered in junk.

Argh, you're making me feel all masculine and protective! I'll fight you!!

(Have to admit that yeah, the observer column is horrible, and put me off her quite a bit. And it's not the best picture of her on there. But I can't let go, I've loved her ever since she was at smash hits).

the advice is still useful. but just date someone blind.

seriously like, you probably won't be as successful as someone who is not ugly, but you still go about it the same way. Acting all self-pitiful sure doens't help. Unless.. wait!1

actually go to indie clubs. act all self-pitiful about how ugly you are - you'd pull in a second.

I mean, yeah, sure, sometimes you can feel a bit "But you don't know what it's LIKE...!" about it, but thing is, obviously they did something right at some point to get with their mate.

actually go to indie clubs. act all self-pitiful about how ugly you are - you'd pull in a second.

ken c in "being a twat" shocker.

xpost

also like caterine said there's often an instinctive dislike for a certain kind of ugly face, an immediate repulsion. it angers you, you think "fix that, i don't want to look at it." (this assumes you don't know the person.) many people react to it the same way they react to the smell of shit or decomposing trash. maybe we instinctively think "ugly" is "unhealthy". (sometimes that's true.)

am i attracted to "top ten percent people" exclusively? not at all. the other day i was sitting in a group of about two dozen people, all in their twenties, and i would say that of those who were the gender i fancy, physically i'd be open to all but one or two, and even they might sway me if the "magical thing" happened.

maybe what this thread or at least my question was about was coming to grips with being in that bottom 20, 25 percent (at least of people my age). i wish i could say "i am nobly indifferent to physical appearance" when it came to mate-finding but i'm not, and that self-hating question, "how can i expect what i can't give?" looms large.

(i am not marcello, and he's right to resent the accusation.)

for me the most helpful posters were: jimd, mitch, markelby, caterine vauban, tuomas.

for me the least helpful posters were: the ones who kept banging variations on "your life is like this b/c you're neurotic or think too much" or whatever.

the unanswered question is: when rejection happens over and over again, where is this positive reinforcement supposed to come from? and: how am i supposed to not start hating?

mitch i find it really surreal that you talk about feeling unattractive because i remember seeing a picture of you & thinking that you were particularly handsome. (hope that's not too creepy coming from someone anonymous.)

Marcello, I'm not with you on the dockers thing. (Nor, I guess, are you.) The only female music journalist I've ever known in real life is Kitty Empire. And she's a normal, attractive woman.

(It's Alan, by the way. I forgot my old login and email address, so I re-registered. Hello!)

substitute "regard yourself" for "be regarded"

mitch i find it really surreal that you talk about feeling unattractive because i remember seeing a picture of you & thinking that you were particularly handsome

and this teaches you nothing?

miranda seems to be the whistle only dogs can hear.

perhaps because the cats teach themselves to hear only the whistles they think the dogs hear

im still trying to work this one out in my head