This is the thread for the Liverpool/AC Milan Champions League final

Wow, that was a quick score!

(xpost talking about when Rino Gattuso was a teenager at Rangers before anyone realised he was really good)

Is anyone else feeling as cynical as I am about Kewell? No interest all season, then a fine recovery for this final, then they go behind and he's off again...

Looking that up made me miss Shevchenko's disallowed effort. I hope you appreciate it

Oh well, at least Liverpudlians are saved from the sight of Dave B streaking.

Hey!

Not surprisingly, I'm exactly the opposite. Cisse off the bench to net a 77th minute winner. (0-3 by halftime, Kewell booed off).
-- Michael Jones

It was me. I also predicted Kewell would be booed off. I think I missed a consonant.

I ain't crowin' yet.

(xpost!)

Liverpool's response:
- Vladimir Smicer :-/

Fast forward six months and Milan are taking Liverpool apart for fun and Celtic are still letting in stupid goals in the last two minutes of important games.

I'm not sure if I even have a point here.

This game needs a comedy own goal from Djimi Traore.

blimey the've scored

I forgot my exclamation mark after that :-P

Milan's plan:
- give Kaka the ball
- have him stroll through a vacant midfield at will
- Shevchenko ghosts around the sleeping Traore
- Crespo bursts between Carragher and Finnan
- Kaka slips pass to one of the forwards
- goal scoring chance created
- rinse and repeat
Liverpool's response:
- Vladimir Smicer :-/

-- Onimo (gerry.wat...), May 25th, 2005 8:46 PM. (GerryNemo) (later)

Kebab-tastic Liverpool Roast Milan in Sensational Second Half Come Back

Oh man, you're right. Wouldn't it have been sweet.

Where is that Darts commo guy, Sid Waddell? He would have a way with words

Anyone hazard a guess as to the bollocking which took place in the Reds' dressing room between halves?

In the first half they were shit - Hamaan shows that he remains the test of whether someone knows about football - ask them if they think he's a good player and if they say 'not really' then they don't know what they're talking about.Liverpool bossing the middle, but I wonder ho much the 10 minute blast took out of them - they look slightly puffed out.

xpost - Off the line! I reckon that Rafa doesn't bollock. He organsies. I really, really rate him.

It needs Liverpool to win the CL. I will run naked through Liverpool if this happens. I can see them beating Chelsea over two legs, but that's it.
-- Dave B (dave.boyl...), March 10th, 2005 5:28 PM. (daveb)

Do you have TEH FEAR yet?

This is the thread for the Champions League 2004-5

Eeps, I'm sorry Ailsa. :-( I just thought a separate thread would be fun.

Carragher is DA MAN!

Not penalties. Please.

Mike, swap you the six minutes involving a team you don't support for the two I had to endure on Sunday that involved I team I do?

(is everyone else just waiting for the penalty shootout now?)

It's OK, I knew you were joking.

Success: Eng v spain 96.

Failures: Eng v W Germany 90, Utd v Soton FA Cup 92, Utd v some Russian team 92, Eng v Germany 96, Eng v Argentina 98, Eng v Portugal 04, Utd v Arsenal FA cup saturday.

From = By

Cisse scores!

Kaka scores, Dudek turns into Grobbelaar!

Milan need to score! Shevchenko up next, no pressure, like...

This match will be remembered for a hell of a long time - has there been such a magnificent comeback in such a big match, ever?

p.s. ya gotta luv dudek's free-stylin' penalty-savin'!

xpost

Che cazzo ne pensi di questo, Berlusconi!

Exactly!!

Ridiculous.

Yay! What with my "greatest comeback since Lazarus" comment up there as well, I am teh Mystic Meg of ILX. I should have been in the bookies with this stuff.

Gerrard is in tears.

Liver-pulled it back anyone?

Wish I could have seen the game.

Hard to tell, but was there a sure goal by AC Milan near the end that would have won it, but somehow was miraculously skillfully deflected twice?

I've never been a Liverpool fan (nor a hater), but I was choked up when they played You'll Never Walk Alone after the trophy presentation. I'm really happy for Chris and Stevie too.

Caption?

My dad called to ask who that bloke was that came on after halftime in goal for Liverpool that looked reaaly like Jerzy Dudek but was really good. He has a point...a guy that panics at a casual passback being the unlikely hero of the latter stages?

I hate Liverpool.

I want do die.

My housemate wouldn't let me watch Desperate Housewives tonight because of it :(

That is all.

that was amazing

A kick in the groins for Meeelan all the same...

I forgot Ronan above. I'm happy for him too. Happy like the air's been crushed from my lungs by a falling 747.

Ed has miscounted. Offie is 43 steps for me from the door of our FLAT, not the street-level FRONT DOOR. I just challenged him to recount from our door but he is refusing.

Haha. We only got there (there being the UEFA Cup quarterfinal, 1-1 at Parkhead, 0-2 at Anfield, lest we forget) as we didn't even qualify for the first stage of the Champions League, managing to throw away a 3-1 lead to that same Basle team that Liverpool did for, to go out 3-3 on away goals. Swings, roundabouts, funny old game, etc etc.

(sorry Suzy & Ed, I got the impression you hadn't left the house and that this bloke made his comedy Dude-k comment so loudly that it was audible through your floor or something)

You should get a batman style pole direct to the offie.

Pub have now popped on the Beatles as their nitey-nitey fuckoff soundtrack. They also left the side-door open for ease of movement by couriers urgently requiring quick tugs on their spliffs (see 'other forms of consumption' above) in the moments between play.

http://www.woundedbird.com/loudness/246.jpg

Twenty-eight years after Emlyn Hughes first lifted the trophy for Liverpool, the Reds will never have to hand the cup back. As five-times winners, UEFA have awarded the cup to Liverpool to keep. A new one will have to be made.

I can see Ronan, Chris and Jerry planning their pilgrimages. :-)

Of course, I could just be a bitter Manc!

(except maybe Juventus)

xpost Dom I can barely make out the spiderweb of allegiances you've just sketched there but I know enough to be able to say DAMN DUDE BRR IT JUST GOT REAL COLD IN HERE.

It's about time they went to a bloody game. ;)

Football as aversion therapy - I'm so sickened by the whole thing that I can't muster any enthusiasm for any summer games (are there any? WC qualifiers, maybe? I can't be bothered finding out) and would rather next season started around November. I will say that I thought Milan were actually rather magnificent - not only the magisterial first-half display but the way they gradually took control again after that 15min spell when the Reds were rampant and kept surging forward in extra time. They must feel like they've been mugged.

Also there is still West Ham vs Preston North End or somebody.

(heard that the last time (?) real madrid won it they finished fifth in the league and the spanish FA shoved zaragoza (sp?), who finished fourth, aside so real could defend it...hope that doesn't happen to everton).

I am pleased for Xabi and all the little Xabiettes.

As to Liverpool being allowed into the Champs league next season - of course they should be. We should have 5 clubs in. Listening to the comments of spineless UEFA officials on 5 live this morning sickens me. William Guyard (sp?) was wheeled out as usual as the front man for UEFA and tried to pass the buck onto the FA to deselect Everton. 'The rules have already been made, they cannot be broken - only 4 teams allowed etc etc'. Nonsense - UEFA have it in their power to add another team to a group and they should do so. Man makes the rules and man can alter them when they need to be altered. What's football for? It's a sport, an entertainment - so let's ensure that we do what needs to be done and let Liverpool defend the cup.

On the match. While Gerard and Carragher were immense (Carragher and Terry MUST be the England centre-back pairing) in the second half, I felt that Hamman made the biggest difference by being prepared to get his foot in and win the ball in central midfield rather than standing off or diving in as Gerard and Alonso did in the first 45. Did I hear someone say he was on his way to Bolton? Madness, unless they have a replacement coming. You must have a player like that to be successful these days - Makelele, Gilberto Silva, Keane - they all do the same job. I think it's asking too much of Gerard to be playmaker and ballwinner, when he was freed up to get forward he had a real influence. In a first choice Liverpool team Garcia may be the one to make way.

Up front - Baros works hard, but really isn't up to it on his own. I feel that Morientes, if eligible, would have done a better job than Baros or Cisse.

In goal. You know maybe, instead of looking for perfection (Petr Cech is the only one who fits the bill, maybe Schmiechal before him) clubs should accept that in the long run keepers like Lehmann and Dudek will win big games for their team and the odd blooper is inevitable. In the last week we've seen both of them play really well *when it mattered*. I was thinking about Grobelaar last night, as you would, and he was as dodgy as they come at times, yet was a key player for about 10 seasons for Liverpool. It's dead easy to ship in a goalie with a big reputation from overseas, but it's a big risk too. I really hope the Dudek stays and gets the chance to become one of the best.

imagine if Peel had been on air last night.

But let's let these things go. Two-groin Carragher was great, the second half updated models for Traore and Dudek were much improved editions and Gerrard was a joy to watch (rather ambivalent comment about his future should worry Scousers everywhere I think).

Also, Milan played some beautiful football in the first half and Crespo's second goal was brilliant.

Mike - I don't think that'll happen.

What's ambivalent about that???

Why not 10? Or 20? It is the Best League In The World after all, we could call it The Premiership...

Venables last night "UEFA can put them in, there are slots there" - aye Terry, someone else's fucking slots that they worked hard for in their own fucking league. Everyone knew the qualifying criteria before the tournament started, fuck changing the rules to suit one team.

How many Englishmen would be happy to give up an English Champions League slot to allow, for example, a team of German Champions League winners in to defend their title? I'm fairly sure the Sun might start a wee campaign against that one.

All he had to say was "I'm not leaving" and that would be that.

I'm not suggesting anyone from any country would give up their slot. UEFA need to find a way to add in one team - this year's winners.

**Everyone knew the qualifying criteria before the tournament started, fuck changing the rules to suit one team.**

Except the rules are wrong - the champions should be allowed to defend their title, regardless of where they finish domestically.

CONGRATULATIONS TO LIVERPOOL FC AND ALL THEIR SUPPORTERS

BIG hangover this morning but I'm so utterly delighted.

Number one whingebag, the Milan vice-chairman, but wouldn't expect any less from the Italians. Perhaps they can get the government involved again.

meanwhile, POOR MICHAEL OWEN

So you want an odd number of teams in a knock-out round?

Liverpool had a clear penalty turned down immdeiately before Milan scored their second, justice was done in the end.

Very difficult to see that as deliberate, sorry. He was on the floor and the ball was kicked into his arm.

I think Liverpool were outrageously fortunate in this game and in this competition in general. Hey, you need a bit of luck to win the Cup, right?

Would any of you Liverpool fans willingly exchange Xabi's equalising penalty for, say, a couple of away wins at Man City and Palace guaranteeing you 4th place? Think about it as long as you like.

Of course not. But it's not beyond the wit of man to find a solution.

This loss would be a whole lot easier to digest if it hadnt been against an English team. I hate English football, English football fans and the English media. Atleast it's comforting to know that Milan will continue being a top European club while Liverpool wont.

I think Nesta didn't make a great deal of effort to get the hand out of the way. It easily could have been given.

x-post gracious in defeat there lovelace.

Without be facetious, the only one I can come up with is by adding an extra 63 teams to the tournament to counterbalance the inclusion of a team who finished ten points closer to the bottom of the Premiership than the top of it.

Didn't think so. Just checking.

The defending CL winners are actually supposed to go straight into the group stage (except in those circumstances where they're not supposed to be in the tournament at all - like now). Give 'em Arsenal's place and the national clamour for Justice For The IncREDibles might start to stall a bit.

Did none of the Liverpool fans on here actually go to the game?

I've not seen another shot of the Nesta handball. I still haven't seen a better shot of Garcia's goal against Chelsea though either.

The only disappointment last night was that Clive Tyldesley didn't find a use for the phrase 'gracing the occasion'. This always has a welcome place at major finals. Motty used it three times on Saturday, twice before kick-off, and it was a CRAP occasion.

Maybe Motty has copyright? Or Istanbul is too crap to be *graced*?

I am looking forward to the Pinefox's comments on last night's action. And the football.

carragher, as has rightly been pointed out, has had a great finale to the season, but, i was disappointed with his comments that uefa should make way for liverpool next season, not via the removal of everton, but the removal of a champion team of a small and hopefully poor country that could do with the money and exposure champions league football begins.

xpost

The winners of the World Cup no longer have an automatic place in the finals, do they?

If you win an Olympic gold medal you don't get a free pass to the next one, do you?

Finance does NOT make excluding Everton any fairer than excluding any other team. UEFA fucked up and now they must sort it out, perhaps if they end up allowing Liverpool in, they will simply turf out a side which is less well known, but the entire competition is skewed enough towards the big teams that I don't think this is a great surprise, unless you have fundamental problems with the entire structure of the competition anyway to the extent that you don't recognise it whatsoever.

x-post Alba the Olympics and World Cup are held every 4 years, it's far different to an annual tournament whereby the holders are actually a similar team the next time around.

How much money can the Kazazh (say) champs expect to make from a 11-0 two-leg drubbing in the first qualifying round by the Cypriot (say) champs considering the travelling expenses?

If you add a fifth English side to the CL and have that knock-on effect perhaps the team that should fall off the very bottom (i.e. not even in the UEFA preliminaries) should be the nominated team from the third-placed country in the Fair Play League. I bet they don't even know who they are, so no great loss.

Ha - wait till Rafa gets going this summer.

Gerrard's been to them by the look of things last night. Or he just sprayed up for the big occasion.

Let's not forget that in relation to the usual winners of the CL bar Porto, Liverpool are NOT a big club. The value of the trophy is magnified tenfold by the financial/player allure of being in it the next season.

Just joking. But no way should they get a place in next year's tournament at the expense of anyone.

(The tricky thing is that the CL winners ARE supposed to be in the following year's comp: they're one of the 16 that go straight into the group stage. Unfortunately, this is directly contradicted by the no-more-than-four-from-one-country rule in cases like this season and the Madrid/Zaragoza thing. France, for example, get three CL places; if their 4th place team win the CL, they qualify as CL winners.)

??

What is the point of winning anything? Are you actually in sympathy with the idea that it is all about money?

Liverpool had their chance to qualify for next year, but that time has passed. Can't the fans just get behind Everton instead? It's the same city no?

Ho ho.

[1] the FA forgetting their promise that, upon the lifting of the ban, a UEFA cup spot would be reserved for the club that missed the most European football during the hiatus (EFC: 85-86 EC, 86-87 ECWC, 87-88 EC, 88-89 UEFA, 89-90 UEFA);
[2] missing out when finishing 6th in 95-96 cos UEFA punished the English FA by withdrawing a UEFA Cup spot cos Spurs and Wimbledon fielded weakened sides in the Inter-Toto Cup the previous summer;
[3] missing out in 67-68, 68-69 and 69-70 due to the rule of one-city-one-club in the Inter-City Fairs Cup (we finished behind Liverpool but high enough to qualify otherwise);
[4] being pipped by Blackburn to 6th on the last day in 02-03 (fair enough) but then seeing Southampton (8th, Cup runners-up) and Man City (seventh-best behaved team in the Premiership) qualify behind us.

There, that's out of my system.

This has nothing to do with me being a Everton supporter beginning last night.

Fact is this is as big a chance relatively for Liverpool as it would be for Skonto Riga or whoever to get into the first round.

Because they're a better team? Or are you implying that Roman's fortune prevents Chelsea players from getting tired?

Liverpool's league position is the worst of any Champions League winner ever. In fact it's the worst of any Champions League semi-finalist ever. All those teams throughout the years managed to play lots of games without finishing 5th in their respective leagues.

All credit to Liverpool for a sensational victory but everyone knew the rules long ago and I don't see why it's UEFA's job to attempt to keep Gerrard at Liverpool.

I have some sympathy with Ronan's position that being allowed to defend a title is natural justice, but that doesn't stand up to a great deal of interrogation. We just grew up thinking that that was the way of things.

I have rather less sympathy, as some might expect, with his "we're a (relatively) small club" line. The most recent results a cursory google threw up showed LFC as the eighth richest club in the world, and they have been ranked as the fifth richest within the last four or five years. Obviously we're used to the "we're only a small club, we've limited resources" card being played, but Liverpool have lashed out untold millions on players in recent memory. That those millions have (until recently, apparently) been ill-spent is hardly a solid ground for special pleading.

Well done to all my LFC-supporting chums today though.

(Everton squad size: 19, btw).

Yes, and it was pointed out that the Spanish FA put Real in at someone else's expense. The English FA has already stated that they wouldn't do this.

why not go the whole hog and start the european league up now, that could keep those pesky little clubs out, ensuring year in year out qualification. perhaps a minimum size of club could be the opening criteria

JtN: that would be because I stuffed my phone down the lav in screaming rage. Only jokin'.

This proposed DVD is probably worth having just for the frame-by-frame of Dudek's double save from Shevchenko. It defies belief.

This takes the biscuit as most blood boiling comment ever:

ie, if you don't allow the winners in, what is the actual benefit of team winning it? the CL is about money.

As others have said - glory perhaps? Sporting immortality? Never having to buy a drink in Liverpool again?

The simple fact here is that there are two ways to resolve this. The FA can admit them, and change the rules that relate to 20 teams. Of UEFA can be browbeaten into changing the rules that affect over 1000 teams.

The FA are now saying that the latter should happen - naturally. David Davies was on the radio saying how they expected 'big names' to support their call for UEFA to change. That'll be the big countries who'd think this is better than, as G says, Skonto Riga or Alania Vladikavkhaz.

But as Onimo says, what's being proposed here is that a team who've worked hard be kicked out of the competition

My solution here would be:

Ask all first round entrants into the Competition who would be prepared to forego automatic entry to the first qualifying stage (you know, the likes of Glentoran, Afan Lido or whoever) and play Liverpool over two legs.

If none want to, then fair dos. If more than one wants to, lots are drawn. The winners of that play off then proceed through the 3 qualifying rounds and thence the Group Stage.

Dr C. - does your animosity to William Galliard doubtless have anything to do with his stinging attack of Mourinho does it? It's so _easy_ to call them spineless; I think it rather takes more spine to stand up for the integrity of the ruels as they are - agreed by all countries - than bend to the whim of the hysterical mob of the English media, who once again, show their attitude to the rest of Europe, particularly smaller countries, to be one of 'fuck 'em. Never heard of them anyway'.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/images4/tour05.gif

JtN OTM.

Gareth: not club size, or that'll exclude plucky wee Liverpool forever!

grubby isnt it?

Signed: Dave

I think the commentator mentioned Peter Withe last night, but I didn't catch why.

Of course, it was a proper European Cup back then.

Parry also revealed that Gerrard woke up with the European Cup in his bed.

"The cup ended up in Steven Gerrard's bed last night, he wouldn't let go of it!"

Team-mate Vladimir Smicer added: "The cup ended up with Stevie G in his room. His girlfriend wasn't here, so he had the cup in his bed instead."

perhaps the scheme could be extended, and all the teams from the minor leagues could offer 2 leg playoffs against large european clubs that couldnt manage qualification by the book?

No, it has nothing to do with the Mourinho thing. That whole issue was ugly and regreattable and Chelsea/Mourinho were as much to blame as anyone.

What pissed me off about Galliard/UEFA this morning was the refusal to accept that *maybe* the people who are calling for Liverpool to be included have a point and that it is worth discussing to see if there is a way to include them. Pushing it back onto the FA *is* spineless, agreeing to consider the idea isn't.

I ahve no time for anyone who says 'the rules are the rules and that's that'. Rules can be modified if nobody is disadvantaged by doing so, and everyone agrees that the situation post-rule change is better than before. Liverpool have done magnificently in winning the Cup and deserve to defend it.

No the point is a minnow with very little chance of getting through the first round anyway gets big money by playing a big club this way.

I'd have thought that UEFA will consider this, but they'll do it on their terms, not because a UK radio interview bounces them into opening the possibility. The moment Galliard says 'we'll look at it', then the smaller associations will be bouncing all over UEFA saying 'how on earth do they propose to do this'. They'll also have the FA scenting victory. First rule of negotiation - never weaken you hand in public, and allow room for moanouvre behind the scenes.

Yeah the winners being in the trophy automatically makes this an issue of keeping the little clubs out. They're already fucking kept out, and if you feel so strongly about this one case then surely you must despise the Champions League and the existing football systems entirely.

But no, best to just make the argument as regards the winners of the CL not being allowed to defend their trophy, and not, in fact, as regards the entire CL being an unfair system/money being essential to success in football shocker.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41185000/jpg/_41185481_celwin.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40611000/jpg/_40611725_gerrard_ap300.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41185000/jpg/_41185493_crowd.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41185000/jpg/_41185489_benitez.jpg

effectively selling their place to liverpool = bad. not that that should surpise me coming from a club with a name like 'Total Network Solutions'

That aside, I don't really follow your argument, Ronan: you seem to be saying that the CL is at root corrupt and that's what it's *for* (at least in part) and that to argue against any perceived corruption in the CL is fruitless. Is that right?

(sorry, just remembered that)

At the end of the day it's all well and good to talk about football in egalitarian terms but I for one know I watch it for entertainment value, and I supect this is probably heightened for alot of us, more than maybe we admit, by the fact that you have such huge games between clubs which are bigger than the others.

The Liverpool issue is hardly an isolated incident, is what I'm saying, it seems bizarre to suddenly remember, as gareth said, that football at this level has alot to do with money.

People have set up alternative systems to the CL, there are other leagues, is it really just DESPITE the money issues people enjoy the CL? Or is a part of its allure BECAUSE there is so much money centred around so many big clubs, there are huge stadiums, famous players, etc etc etc?

As fake and inauthentic as this all may be compared to the lads down the park rolling in dogshit to score a goal I think it has a weighty attraction, for everyone. I don't like to second guess people so cynically but I can't resist here.

I have seen literally several, or maybe even dozens, of games in the Champions' League featuring Real Madrid, the biggest team in Europe, and they have almost all been dead boring.

(Notable exception: the one gainst Man Utd, also the biggest team in Europe.)

Of course it is. Do you think those who watch it for those reasons will sit through ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, Milan, Juve, Real, Barca, Bayern, etc. and think it's a poorer competition without Liverpool in it?

I'd quite happily trade the £6M or so Celtic made out their last Champs League run to have another of those big shiny trophies on display. Money means a lot to the clubs, trophies mean more to the players and fans - or this particular fan at least. If someone said to me at the start of the season "You win the European Cup but don't get to defend it - take it or leave it" I'd bite their fucking hands off.

"It's already really unfair so just let's make it more unfair to suit my club and my club alone" just doesn't wash.

(I refuse to acknowledge victory by penalty shoot-out though, just as some people refuse to acknoweldge non-church weddings.)

i hope liverpool winge and winge all summer and finally get a place and then get turned over 4-0 by mypa-47

I know this issue was raised ages ago, but I had to log out for IT maintenance.

TNS are the prostitues of football. Yeah.

You're being very quiet on the Dioufy Legal Aid Fiasco though Gareth.

Now I would like to be Evertonian's Advocate for a moment.

LFC's comeback period was astounding and heroic, but Milan were probably the better side over 120 minutes, and fashioned more real chances. In extra-time LFC were nowhere - it was like watching England. (BTW: early offside wrongly given vs Milan?)

For all the talk of getting into next year's competition, LFC can hardly be confident of repeating the feat in 2005-6. It seems true that they could be knocked out early. It is odd how many seemed keener on that than on winning it this time (on which Boyle was right).

Penalties are the wrong way to settle such a game - so I have often supposed, so I will stick to it now. In a sense, LFC did not win last night's game, any more than United lost on Saturday. And where is the sense in the claim that there is no time for replays... at the end of the season?

but this year was kind of strange because when all four teams got to the quarter finals it was like, hey, if they all win, the champions league is basically the FA cup, and no one really cares about the FA cup anymore right?

Team-mate Vladimir Smicer added: "The cup ended up with Stevie G in his room. His girlfriend wasn't here, so he had the cup in his bed instead."

i thought those players kissing the cup was gross enough. but sleeping with them.

Often in the past I suggested that games were decided on points by a panel (possession, shots, fair play all factors plus others), except this would be pretty dull.

as if mourinho doesn't whinge enough.

gerrard can win it for the reds again next year.

The point of the CL is to allow the best teams in Europe to extend their bragging rights so why should Liverpool be included next year if they couldn't even qualify the normal way? A team might qualify one year and then just play their reserves and loan signings all year in league competition and keep their first squad only for CL matches. Unlikely, I admit, but the hard work of doing well in the national league, week after week, shouldn't be discounted just because it's less sexy than winning the CL cup. Especially when done on penalties. Perhaps the FA should just have a Merseyside derby, winner to go to the CL, since UEFA have essentially said that it's up to the FA to choose.

http://www.partyworks.co.uk/images/htf.jpg

lets stop the whingeing, to be honest, I don't care if we're not in it next year, we won, it's ours, *we own the European cup* jesus.

last night was beatiful, tremendous, a sight to behold, and the bitterness and sour grapes from fans of teams not even in the final are just unseemly, Milan fans I can understand not being the happiest but others? jealousy.

Mind you, I had a meeting today with a Milan fan, he shrugged, said it was a fantastic game and congratulated Liverpool. very very refreshing that.

Fuck.

All this Liverpool should be allowed to compete next year stuff is nonsense. I'm with everyone who said if they wanted the right to win it next year they should have qualified for it.

Just now on the Channel 4 news they just said they were the Champion of Champions. This, more than anything, annoys me. They aren't even champions, but champions of 4th-placed-or-better-depending-where-you-come-from teams doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Obviously I will not complain about the fact that Celtic are in the Champions League qualifiers despite not being champions, but it still seems slightly wrong. Jumpers for goalposts, etc...

The parade is at least 1 hour behind schedule due to the massive crowds.

Go watch Sky News if you have it.

I am quite surprised, as was mentioned by someone else, that none of the Liverpool fans on this board, went to Istanbul. Even if I hadn't got a ticket, wild horses wouldn't have kept me away from Seville two years ago.

Scousers in "any excuse for a pint" shockah!

Also interviewer: "do you think Arsene Wenger will try and make Arsenal more like Liverpool in Europe next season?".

Yes, go three-nil down again a team with world-class defenders and one of the best strikers in the world. That's the good tactics that they should all be aiming for.

(xpost, didn't know you knew Ronan's financial situation that well, haw haw haw)

(probably jealousy)

FOR FUCKS SAKE EVERYONE, STOP HARSHING MY FUCKING BUZZ, CHRIST, WE'RE THE KINGS OF EUROPE, AND EITHER LOVE IT OR LIVE WITH IT, IT AIN'T GOING AWAY FOR A YEAR

(also, you're prone to a bit of grumpy curmudgeonliness sometimes yourself, are you not?)

I'm not meaning to be as smug as I sound about going to Seville, but I had an increasingly intolerant husband ("what do you mean you're going to Seville, on your own, taking unpaid leave, without a match ticket" etc - before roping in family, friends and somehow getting a ticket, the unpaid leave was still unavoidable), and I wasn't not going. I'm not claiming any superiority for it though.

Also I wasn't criticising Liverpudlians for gawping at an open-topped bus, I would do the same, I was criticising the Sky News reporter who was going on about how it was the kind of thing you would tell your grandchildren about. To which your grandchild would say "yeah, so did everyone else's grandparents. Even the Evertonian ones".

I had the same reaction to Man Utd's victory in 1999. Got stupidly pleased at seeing an unexpected victory snatched from the jaws of defeat (note: I did not have this feeling for Motherwell or Rangers last Sunday), then despaired at the "this is the best thing EVER IN THE HISTORY OF EVER!!!" commentary that followed like everyone was suddenly converted to supporting them just because they wished them well for one match (incidentally I watched that one alone in my bed in my pyjamas with a bottle of vodka with no-one to even talk to - I still went slightly menkoist at the end)

What a great story. When I still cared about American football, I stayed up 'til the wee hours in Milan watching the 49ers vs. the Bengals in Superbowl XVI and afterwards had absolutely no-one to share my glee with.

(xpost - most of the best players in the world weren't in the last couple of rounds of the Champions League)

If you want to be picky you could say it was jammy in the sense that Shev hit the ball right at Dudek's arm - he was merely an obstruction that the striker managed to hit. No great athleticism involved. Good save from that free-kick at 0-3 too.

xpost - Mike OTM - it was more a miss by Shevchenko than a save by Dudek. It's symbolic value was much more than it's intrinsic 'quality' value.

In other news, Luis Garcia seems to be developing a Scouse accent.

I saw on the news yesterday that a lot of people had dressed their dogs up as Liverpool supporters. This is wrong. Dogs are Everton supporters. You can see it in their faces.

Sorry to be a buzz-harsher on this thread, but it's just the ol' hatred, not jealousy. Great scenes in the city an' all that. It's done now, I'm sick at the result, but you may as well have a big party. It's not like I was willing the bus to turn over on Scottie Road or anything. Did they let Kewell collect the fares?

Modern Life Is Rubbish

http://www.flickr.com/photos/20758775@N00/15915655/

...In 1981...
Prince Charles got married
Ken and Deirdre got married (Coronation Street)
There was a new Doctor Who
Liverpool finished fifth in the League
Liverpool won 17 league games
Norwich were relegated
Crystal Palace were relegated
Liverpool won the European Cup
There was a new Pope

In 2005...
Prince Charles got married
Ken and Deirdre got married (Coronation Street)
There was a new Doctor Who
Liverpool finished fifth in the League
Liverpool won 17 league games
Norwich were relegated
Crystal Palace were relegated
Liverpool won the European Cup
There was a new Pope

1978 & 2005 COINCIDENCES
The Pope dies
The Welsh rugby team wins the Grand Slam title
The league winners (1978 Nottingham Forest, 2005 Chelsea) beat Liverpool in the League Cup final
Liverpool are crowned champions of Europe

I figured it had gotten around.

I liked the story of the fan (a part-time player for Burscough) who managed to get on the pitch in Istanbul, grabbed a spare tracksuit top from the Liverpool dugout and managed to get himself in all the official celebratory photos with the trophy.

Sorry to drag up this theme again, but does anyone know why the FA made their decision regarding the four CL qualifiers so early? I presume the Spanish FA waited until after the CL final in the Zaragoza/Madrid case.

http://www.superiorlabels.com/images/ColorClipart/Birds/Liver_Bird/tbird_bg1.jpg

I want to be there to laugh at his pain when he has it done.

I presume it was because they thought: "Here's an opportunity to look decisive, as there's no chance Liverpool will actually win the thing and make our decision come back to haunt us".

Like the tattoo design - makes Chris look like a Nerys Hughes obsessive.

-- The Lex (alex.macpherso...), May 25th, 2005 11:05 PM. (The Lex) (later)

Not that I imagine for a second that The Lex will be popping his head back round the door of this thread, but Channel 4 just said they are repeating that episode of Desperate Housewives on Tuesday this week for all the people who missed it because of the football. People power!

I WAS WONDERING WHO THAT GUY WAS! IT'S LIKE KARL 'FATNECK' HOWMAN OR WHATEVER HIS NAME WAS ALL OVER AGAIN!

Karl Power was the professional prankster Man Utd/England cricket team dude (Karl Howman is Jacko off Brushstrokes/Flash advert dude)

If I was a Liverpool fan I'd be perfectly happy not to play next year. Learn the lesson of Cantona! Go out at the top! Maintain the high ground! Concentrate on qualifying properly for 2006-07 rather than stretching your resources to the extent that Charlton Athetic* boosted by some ridiculous wunderkid get in ahead of you.

Yes, maybe Liverpool should be able to defend their trophy. Still, its not like Jerzy Dudek the player above all others who made it happen, will be able to, is it?

*Hey, if it can happen to Everton...

Yes, some other team will now need to play an extra qualifier, which means another team gets dropped out of the first round of qualifiers altogether. Some people would say that doesn't matter as they wouldn't have qualified anyway. Some people would be wrong.
Also, 2 other teams will now theoretically have more difficult qualifiers with better teams having to drop back a round.

yes, loads of snarky carping on this thread - very disappointing

talk about a boys club, and if thats carping, then fuck it, i'll carp!

I think it would be 'fairer' to boot Everton out than Fenerbahce, though I still blame the FA are to blame for not stating that in the event of an English club winning the CL without automatically qualifying for next season's already they would take the place of the fourth team. If not replacing Everton with Liverpool (and compensating Everton sufficiently in the process) the FA should have to compensate them somehow - giving them an automatic place in the 06/07 CL probably wouldn't work (as I'll ran fully clothed through the streets of Liverpool if they don't finish top 4 next season anyway), and financial compensation alone wouldn't really satisfy the fans. What a ridiculous mess.

There will always be snarkiness - we've seen any amount directed at Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea over recent years. I'm kind of neutral as far as the big teams are concerned, so it was no problem getting 100% behind Liverpool from the moment they beat Chelsea, and I was absolutely fucking thrilled at the victory.

Chris, Stevie: were you two 100% behind Man U at the same time in 1999?

According to something else in the Observer, Fenerbache are getting the 16th automatic group stage spot (that L'Pool would have got if they'd come 4th and won) and Liverpool are being accomodated at the qualifying stage.

i.e. is the potential shafting of FC Minnow's participation already a precedent within the CL rules?

However, as that list shows, they effectviely treat the holders as qualifying from Europe, not from any national association. Fenerbache onyl became next in line because Liverpool won - had Milan won, they'd be qualifying. As a result, they never had it, as of right, and thus Liverpool would be taking a place that is already reserved for them.

It's clearly a tougher tournament to win than the old European Champion Clubs' Cup, impossible to ride one's luck with regard to the draw throughout. Perhaps the success of Porto and Liverpool demonstrate that, by disposing of the 2nd group stage and only allowing seeding in the last sixteen based on group stage performance, UEFA have now got a decent balance between maximising TV revenue through as many high-profile round-robin matches as possible and a proper knockout cup with a dash of unpredictability.

I've been blathering on for weeks about that 16th place reserved exclusively in the group stage for the reigning champs, but somehow along the way I seem to have allowed myself to become convinced that giving a 5th spot to England means someone else missing out (just cos that what everyone seems to have assumed). It doesn't. No one is actually going to be deprived of a place in the CL by the inclusion of Liverpool in 05-06. In fact, normally, there's an extra place in the comp available because the reigning champs would've qualified through their national allocation. This season Fenerbahce were promoted to the group stage because Porto's victory in 03-04 meant that the group stage place allocated to Portugal wasn't used. In turn, the champs from Serbia & Montenegro (the team that used to be Red Star; they beat PSV at home but got thumped 5-0 in the return) got bumped up to occupy Fenerbahce's Qr3 place and so on*. It's just the pesky no-more-than-four-clubs rule that's standing in the way here.

(* - this may not be true because, upon closer inspection, there actually only appears to have been 73 clubs in this year's comp.)

The boring details Dave B, I and others have previously linked to are posted below. What am I missing?

There are 74 entrants to the 05/06 CL:
24 go into Qr1 (champions of nations ranked 26-42 and 44-50; plucky Liechstenstein, ranked 43, only have a Cup competition)
28 go into Qr2 (runners-up from nations 10-15, champions from nations 16-25, 12 winners from Qr1)
32 go into Qr3 (4th-placed from nations 1-3, 3rd-placed from nations 1-6, runners-up from nations 7-9, champions from 10-15, 14 winners from Qr2)
32 go into GS (runners-up from nations 1-6, champions from nations 1-9, 04/05 CL winners, 16 winners from Qr3).

Not automatically, but as the Competition Rules, Article 1, para 1.03 states, they may be entered as an additional representative of that country at the request of their national FA. Hard to imagine the national FA in that instance not making the request unless they thought "Jesus, that was a fluke - we're not entering you again as your early exit will surely bring our coefficient down meaning we'll be further away from really having 4 clubs in the CL."

Would that extra place have been at anyone's expense?

By my reading of the qualification criteria, no.

If UEFA really won't budge on this and Liverpool are to have some kind of unofficial money-spinning playoff, make it against Real Zaragoza.

I fully expect Liverpool to get more than 58pts in the Premiership next season (59, maybe) but lack-of-CL action isn't necessarily going to relieve the strain on the squad (which presumably won't be strengthened by CL glory-chasing players). I think we can expect them to progress in the UEFA (which now has a superfluous league stage of its own, of course), there's the August trip for the Super Cup and a week in Japan in December for the FIFA Club World Championship. Oh, and Benitez is off to Real Madrid cos he wants to work with Tommy Gravesen. (Is that enough carping for ya?)

Excellent news! Mike just pointed this out to me on the tennis thread.

What Matt said, about whoever actually drops out.

Apparently no one. If I'm reading the rules right what normally happens is everyone gets bumped up a round cos the defending champs are already qualified via their league placing. Now you'd think that meant an odd number of clubs but last season there were 72 entrants (not 73 as another web site stated). So, go figure. It's late and I'm tired but I don't see why giving Liverpool that spot reserved for the CL winners displaces anyone from the competition (it just transgresses a separate rule about max number of entrants from one nation).

I would guess the champions of Andorra, seeing as they're ranked 51 and are currently earmarked for the Qr1 of the UEFA. Which means there'd would be a spare spot in the UEFA and under the comp rules nations who would normally get a total of four European spots (both CL and UEFA) get first dibs on spare places - that's nations ranked 10-21. Which I guess means the team that finishes 4th in the Turkish league are ultimately the ones to 'miss out' on a UEFA Qr1 place if Liverpool are allowed in.

Rule of the mob more like. You realise this means that Channel 4 have bumped a documentary about Turkish tapestry that I'd been looking forward to for ages?

The problem with this no-more-than-four-teams rule is that it doesn't really have any moral force (no minnow is going to miss out, as we've established) but it does have precedent (Zaragoza). To be honest, part of the reason I've been fearing this Liverpool Cup run ever since they scored away vs Leverkusen is that I assumed the FA would copy the Spanish example and simply select top three + CL winners. I was kinda surprised when the FA plumped for Everton (but, as Vicky pointed out above, it was the only decision they could've made at the time they made it and it was the only time they could've made it).

I just don't understand all this we're-scratching-our-heads-maybe-we-can-work-something-out. Get rid of the 4-teams-max rule and let L'pool into the group stage in the place reserved for title holders. Or don't get rid of it and insist L'pool play in the UEFA. Anything else (whatever clever compromise they're cooking up) will surely be even more of a fudge.

The best league in the world, ladies and gentlemen...

Still, though, not been a good couple of weeks for Slur Alex has it? Roffle roffle roffle.

If they word it carefully it could work though - "exceptional circumstances", "in the gift of UEFA", blah blah blah. Zaragoza will be wondering where that rule was in 2000 though.

I just skimmed the thread and all I found was a "I hate all English teams and fans" type comment from Lovelace, who would appear to be a bitter Milan fan and goes on to say s/he was just jealous.

Otherwise it's just a few people who think it's a bit unfair to go changing rules, and Onimo and Gareth in particular have explained their feelings on this subject very well.

I still think Ronan's "what's the point of winning it?" comment is the most offensive thing on this thread.

Dadaismus, World Cup winners already don't qualify automatically anymore.

That's kind of nuts don't you think? So, you mean next time England win (*collapses into fits of giggles*)

UEFA are going to have to let Liverpool in, one way or another.

But assuming that wasn't the case, it's never been an issue that holders wouldn't get in as, with the exception of Real Madrid who had the backing of their FA unlike Liverpool) they've always been good enough to qualify anyway.

If Liverpool are denied the chance to play for next season's European Cup then they will be denied the chance to defend the trophy they have now won. Brazil are being allowed a chance to defend their trophy before it goes anywhere else. I don't see how the difference in those scenarios could be any clearer.

I have no problem with Liverpool getting in next year if it's allowable by the rules the way they stand. It's when you start tampering with the rules that it gets wrong (see countless posts upthread)

If those are the rules then they're broke, they need fixing and Liverpool should be given a place in next year's competition.

And you try telling Mike (or me for that matter, but Mike's reaction would be funnier) that Everton haven't worked bloody hard to earn their right to have a go at the big boys.

FWIW, I'm not arguing anything of the sort though. As I keep reiterating THOSE ARE THE RULES!!!

(xpost)

On the contrary, that's exactly what FIFA's rules ARE saying!

However, can Real Zaragoza sue someone for loss of revenue etc since this recently-discovered free pass wasn't extended to Real Madrid a few years back though?

Unless you open up the possibility of unequally sized groups, like in World Cup qualifying groups. Is that a possibility? I don't know. My head hurts.

I'm not denegrating Liverpool's achievement but once you start throwing the previous season's European achievements into the mix, the feedback loop starts to get a bit messy. Everton might have won this year's Champions League had they qualified for it - they never had a chance to see.

I think there should now be an automatic place for the holders every year, whoever it is, the idea there isn't seems insane. And I think if that means an extra place for the country in question then so be it, you'd all be wetting yourselves to say Liverpool deserved to get in if it somehow meant that Bolton or Everton were in the CL.

I don't even understand the bit about Bolton or Everton. Liverpool don't deserve to be in the Champions League because they weren't good enough to qualify for it. End of story.

I still don't think you're justifying your "what's the point of winning it" thing. The point of winning it is that you won it. Moaning because you can't do it again straight away is just sour grapes and you know it (or you should).

I wouldn't be wetting myself about that theory at all. It would mean Everton or whoever getting in when they wouldn't have qualified otherwise.

In any case it now seems there is a way of accomodating Liverpool, to a certain extent, the fact the Spanish FA dumped on Zaragoza while the English FA didn't do the same for Everton means that the Zaragoza part of this argument is not quite relevant.

So perhaps UEFA have been second guessed a bit here, at least to a certain extent? Bit too eager to be indignant maybe.

And I think my point about winning is entirely clear, if anyone is going to make money because of the CL next year, and let's face it, lots of clubs are, then the holders surely deserve a share. How can people actually argue that to be deemed good enough to play in the CL you must finish in 4th place in the league or above, but WINNING the CL does not prove you are good enough to play in it.

FWIW I don't care about Bolton or Everton anymore than I care about Fenerbahce or Skonto Riga, I just like to see rules being stuck to.

The point you are totally failing to grasp is that THERE IS A SET WAY OF QUALIFYING AND LIVERPOOL HAVE NOT MANAGED TO ACHIEVE IT.

Also, the Zaragoza situation is relevant as Real Madrid were in the same situation that Liverpool are now. If this way they've found of letting Liverpool in exists, why all the fannying about with FA permissions and why dump on Zaragoza?

This could go on all day, anyhow.

what part of not acheiving the set criteria rules Liverpool out of this scenario?

goodnight ILe

Liverpool fulfil the qualification criteria in one sense - they won the thing. They are prevented from taking their place as title holders by dint of being from a nation with four places already, none of which they filled domestically. There is absolutely no problem with them being in the 05/06 CL as UEFA's Champion Team or whatever and not as part of England's allocation. It doesn't prevent anyone else competing, it doesn't disadvantage anyone's qualification. The ONLY ISSUE is the precedent set in 2000 with Reals Madrid and Zaragoza. To change the rule they must ignore their precedent.

I seem to be repeating myself on this thread. I'll shut up now.

1) The second stage knockout involves 16 teams. UEFA have a rule which says that the 8 group winners (the form teams) shouldn't play each other yet (a form of secondary seeding) AND that clubs from the same country can't play each other yet. If a country has 5 teams, the maths of the draw become harder and it becomes less a draw than the outcome of an increasingly restricted set of possibilities.

2) There's already a problem with bias towards the big five countries; 4 was a cap on it, but to remove the cap would increase the disparity of places between differing countries, to the overall detriment of the competition and to the development of European football. % clubs increases the possibility that the co-efficient values for the English clubs increase further, cementing their place at the top.

I'd change the rule to say that in exceptional circumstances, should the holders not be placed through other emans, they shall be re-entered as the UEFA champion, and any victories they achieve shall not count towards the co-efficient.

Personally, I'm fucking bored with the whole thing. Lennart Johannsen should toss a bloody coin and have done with it.

PS - as as-yet uncommented on aspect of this is that Man City could qualify for the UEFA cup after all.

How would Man City benefit?

Man City would presumably get the extra English place freed by Liverpool not needing their UEFA cup slot any more by being the next in line in terms of league places.

(xpost)

The limit of our European adventures should be floodlit friendlies against Honved.

I still fail to see where Bolton fit into all of this, other than the fact Gareth wants to see Diouf get himself sent off on a bigger stage. And I don't see anyone in Riga volunteering to give up their place just because English teams have more money/clout. Or does their opinion not matter?

As you may have noticed, I'm not English, and the nationalities of the teams involved doesn't matter to me. All that bothers me is why this couldn't have applied to Zaragoza, and what makes Liverpool so special that the precedent already set can be re-appraised and a new precedent set?

Can I reiterate that I hate that all this is going on and detracting from what was a very enjoyable final?

!! How did they manage that?

Some (fan-biased) explanation here - I was actually looking for their fixture list that season.

oi!

Eleventh, eh? I knew it was bad, but blimey. The only signing that summer was Andy Blair from Coventry, probably because his bus pass would still be valid. Maybe it was his fault.

It is funny how Chris and Vicky are completely indistinguishable unless labelled correctly.

See also: Everton's inglorious defence of their league title in 70-71. "Team of the 70s" we were. Jesus.

Liverpool winning the cup but not qualifying for next year through the normal channels has highlighted a situation that a lot of people think is wrong and should be put right. Rules are not infallible, they have to be able to change.

In my opinion the rules should have been changed for Zaragoza. We don't know what fuss was kicked up in Spain at the time, but we do know that the spanish football association decided that they would not support Zaragoza's appeal to be allowed to play. Liverpool have the English FA kicking up a fuss, which has got this situation a wider audience.

So, in conclusion, there are people who think that rules should be open to change, and those who think rules are set in stone and that's that. And there are those who think that this situation warrants a change in the rules, and those who think that it doesn't. (completely sidestepping whether or not there is a vague section of the rules that allows Liverpool into the competition as UEFA's champions)

Did you look that up, Michael, or is that the kind of thing that is stored in your BRANE?

I see Preston North End were unlucky. Mind you, at least now I know what claret and blue ribbons and confetti look like being pumped out of those sodding celebration machines.

-- Matt DC

a parody of both ronan and markelby!

Or another group which think that the rules this year should stand, and the inconsistencies etc that this episode identifies should be the springboard to change.

To do nothing owuld be the wrong thing. To change things after the fact would be equally the wrong thing. If the price of that is that this year, Liverpool don't get to defend the thing, then so be it. They can't exactly say that, European Cup in hand, they've been shafted.

if the rules need changing, they should change next year and then everyone will have a fair playing ground, knowing the rules from the start, without the goalposts moving AFTER the whole thing.

If you're going to change the rules, then, if you can make a quick decision as to how you're going to do it, why not apply it now and let Liverpool play next year? Why would be changing the rules now be the wrong thing? As to being 'after the fact', when would 'before the fact' have been? Before the start of the season? when this scenario started becoming possible?

But equally the Liverpool fans here need to accept that the rules are perfectly clear and they unequivocally state that Liverpool have not qualified, so maybe a bit of humility and diplomacy would be more appropriate than loudly-voiced persecution complexes.

I'd like to see UEFA commemorate the 20th anniversary of Heysel with another six-year ban for the Reds but you don't always get what you want, y'know?

To change the rules now would correct an injustice - for sure. But it would open a wider injustice - that the rules could be changed mid-stream if you shouted loud enough. I think that's an appaling precendent, so when judging two bad things - injustice to Liverpool vs a very bad precedent being set, I'll accept the former over the latter.

as for gareth, I think you are just sore that there might be a fair way to sort this out and hence the narrative is not so dramatic.

'Justice' could be done without any rule change, of course - UEFA could lean on the FA to deselect Everton. I'm primed for the worst.