Do you need to date your "intellectual equivalent-or-superior" ?

should say, spelling and grammar errors matters so much in the scheme of things? i realize i'm asking all this on a website overfilled with writers, analysts, and the intellectually inclined, so the answers might be skewed one way

Because they don't often come hand-in-hand, maybe. Well, not from my (limited) experience.

Also: having a good communicaive rapport with someone doesnt always = intellectual reasoning abilities either. These are two separate things. You know people who you have very good chats with and who are conversational....but you still regard them as somewhat of an "intellectual inferior" ? I didn't mean them... and no, i'm not intentionally tryingt o be provocative here. I know it's terribly un-PC though and whoever might get pissed at this paragraph...

...I mean, say, someone who isn't much of a "thinker," or a writer, and doesnt read as much as you or have as many opinions on subjects that you may care about, but one you can still have good personal discussions with (in particular, about feelings and where the relationship is going), along with an emotional bond. What if they are terrifically talented or attractive in some other arena in life, but just not given to much intellectual activites? Someone who'd prefer surfing over the museum every time - but this is again, just another flawed example. I can't realy use them, since this can apply to a number of different situations...

I know for a numer of heterosexual _and_ homosexual men, this is not important as long as hey have a "trophy" partner that they can show off to their friends. Is there some sort of mental equivalent to the physical "catch" as such?

it's a dirty job but you can thank me now

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care one way or another - I'm far more interested in whether a potential partner is fun to be with or not and whether or not they like doing the same stuff as me. For example, someone who has no interest in music is unlikely to hold my interest for very long.

I think I'm good at communicating at different levels anyway. It's one of my strengths. So that's probably a big factor.

True. I guess the underlying point is that if you are merely "dating" someone and you're not in love with them, then it likely doesn't matter how you feel about them intellectually, if they possess other qualities that you find attractive enough to keep you interested.

physically resplendent and highly skilled in the conjugal arts

!

i don't really respect anyone who thinks they have cornered the market on what is "important" intelligence or knowledge. in fact that's a pretty good give away they aren't as smart as they think they are.

Gabbneb: that was just my alternate way of saying cream-your-jeans-hott & mind-blowingly fantastic in bed

so it goes both ways. it's called a relationship!

My partner for example never even finished school, and neither of us have what youd call book smarts or know much academic stuff; but you get him talking about high math 3d vector concepts and spatial code and whatnot and he'll go off til my eyes glaze over. I am incanable of thinking at his high level of spatial/logic conceptualisation. And he's like that naturally, without schooling - this is something I am in HUGE awe of, especially considering he's 12 years younger than me!

Intellectual maturity is probably more important than actual intellect, too, as I found out last year when a complete airhead (who was a final-year law student, so quite brainy) had a thing for me. I tend to fall for shy, quiet, brainy people who are smart in a different field/way to me - the fascination factor, mostly.

As for love, love isn't really necessary for a successful relationship. I've loved my partners to different degrees, and it doesn't seem to correlate to intelligence at all, or to the success of the relationship either. Love is perverse; sometimes you love someone because of the adversity of the context, their inaccessibility, their inarticulateness, their difference from you, etc. Love and things like understanding and familiarity are to some extent at odds, I think. Perhaps I'm talking about infatuation rather than love.

That is so awesome. I want to be like this someday (except I don't know jack about art, so it'll have to be about music or something like that).

most people are intelligent about things they care about

YES. OTM, there's the entire thread answered and summarized in nine words, etc.

That's just because everyone is SO jealous that someone can be as pretty as you, *and* a top-class intellectual as well.

Conversely, people who don't care about anything are boring people. An amiable, communicative person can talk to you about something you might know little about but maintain your interest while doing it. Sometimes these people are intelligent. Sometimes these people are full of shit, but I'd argue that it's still preferable to being boring.

In fact, I might have become exactly that sort of crap talker on this very thread. I'm off to bed now.

Um. Not to take this out of context too much, but isn't this quite a cold and clinical way of looking at things? It's almost as if you're hyper-intellectualizing the emotional dynamics of what is, by the definition of most cultures, an inherently romanticized situation. And also in a way that completely ignores the vagaries of that emotion.

Also Momus, in your analysis you're almost publicly concluding that you perhaps don't "love" your partners after all, but rather admire them for resembling some sort of fetishistic standard that remains ill-defined. Not that there's anything "wrong" with this. Your self-awareness or assessment of your emotional state purely through an intellectual lens (or lack of it ) is fascinating.

To me there is (quick list off the top of my head, maybe not comprehensive) brain-clever, social-clever, people-clever, problem-solving-clever & knowing-oneself-clever.

They are all important, but it's the overall mix that really matters. Someone totally deficient in one of these areas can be difficult for me to be with.

My exes go in this order (mind you, this spans a number of years!)

1 brain-clever but people-stupid
2 stupid
3 stupid
4 clever
5 brain-clever but people-stupid
6 stupid but people-clever
7 clever in every way but totally fucked up
8 brain-clever but everything else really stupid

The only ones I'm still friends with are #4 (clever!) and sort of with #7 (clever in every way but totally fucked up).

I will soon conclude that I am people-stupid coz of my poor partner choosing abilities :-(

This may seem a reductionist way about discussions of 'intelligence' but the sense of it is clearly a matter of 'what makes what you talk about' in terms of conversation, especially if a romance becomes permanent. I'm not finding the simplest way to address this to my satisfaction, though, so I'll stop here.

:* (

http://www.lvlife.com/2000/08/702/images/702_melissa_manchester.jpg

It seems like one of the stereotypical cultural expectations is that a woman should always be less intelligent, earn less, and be physically smaller than their male partner. (or at least that's how it often feels to me.) So my options are to either never wear heels and dumb myself down - or else go to the opposite extreme and try to bludgeon boys over the head with how (book) clever I am.

(Funny how this almost never works. With a boy once, I was told the old "would you mind not... rapping?" type thing because I talked through an entire documentary, explaining how the presenter had all his facts wrong, only to be told to please be quiet. I kind of sniffed "but I want to prove I'm cleverer than him" and he told me "Kate, I *know* you're clever. Now would you please shut up?")

I don't know. I've spent a lot of my life going out with very pretty and very dumb boys, and getting horribly bored with/by them quite quickly. So I guess being able to entertain me/or at least keep up with me is quite important if a relationship is going to last.

i normally assume everybody is dumb, until they surprise me. which doesn't happen very often. i guess i also assume everyone is boring, until they surprise me.

(he had already had to resit years of his degree twice, so was understandably worried about not doing very well)

So it's not necessarily the knowledge you possess (although a good listener would generally end up fairly knowledgable) or whatever IQ rating you have. I know some very smart people in the world who are just so absent-minded or self absorbed that it is a real turn off during any kind of interaction.

People I am attracted to must be able to think about things in an unusual way, because otherwise I think I'd just argue with them or find myself feeling disgusted with them. I really hate people who are sensible about everything to the point where it seems like they care about nothing.

I think maybe I just like dreamers.

Yeah, sense of humor is key. I have a very dry one, and I've been happiest with boys who are even more sarcastic than I am. My best friend spent a **year** dating a girl who took everything that my friends and I were saying at face value, it was really awkward and weird. Watching Strong Bad videos around her, for example, was surreal. I'm not sure how you miss the humor in those... He started off by claiming that she'd catch on-he kept trying to explain things to her when she didn't pick up on our jokes- but it was just painful to be around her. Anyway, a few months after they broke up, he agreed that at least basic sarcasm detection abilities should be required.

maybe she was being dead-pan

I think that Jimmy was OTM up there with intellectual curiosity. That's a big turn-on. I am attracted to the person who always goes "why? why? WHY?" and trying to interconnect all the bits of knowledge that they have assembled. Rather than someone who is just booksmart.

But then again, none of this really matters at the end of the day all I really want is someone to give me a big hug and tell me everything is going to be alright.

chances are the people you want to shag the pants off will have as much personality as my toilet paper. well perhaps not always, but the two things dont always go together. id prefer someone 'on my level' but chances of them being someone im very attracted too also seem to increasingly slim.

I got both, hurrah.

In answer to the original question: yes I do. It's a drag having to explain to someone that the Schwarzschild Radius is not next Arnie movie.

i thought i did but do you always have to be having intellectual tete a tetes? cant you just talk crap and giggle like idiots?

What is intelligence really? What I consider a given - knowing the difference between Greer and Gere - might for some people be irrelevant but to me it is a sign of intelligence. (Well, not really, it was the first thing that came to mind but you catch my drift.) I guess that's actually more "cultural baggage" so do you take that into consideration? Because it's not always about intelligence but what you do with it. I'd never be able to date someone who's dumber than I am because 1 I need to look up to people I love, 2 I have a very low self-esteem so consider 90 procent of the population smratter and 3 uh... I forgot that bit. I think intelligence is extremely important but I also like people to be "into pop cult" for example. Not as much as I am, but at least can tolerate when I expound on the merits of, say, Britney Spears last single.

yeah i think a lot of the time people just want someone with similar cultural refs as them and interpret their tastes/knowledge as a sign of their intelligence.

It's a drag having to explain to someone that the Schwarzschild Radius is not next Arnie movie.

I cannot imagine ever having to mention the Schwarzschild Radius to anyone!

"Do we have to go over this again? Schwarzschild radius is proportional to the mass, with a proportionality constant involving the gravitational constant and the speed of light and what you're watching is Total Recall...oh what the hell...just get your panties off and let's do the wild thing..."

I need to look up to people I love

Really? I don't why but this seems strange to me.

Well, it's definitely tied to my insecurity complex. I also like to be challenged in a way, I guess. And how do you find your "equal", it easier to find someone a lot smarter (or dumber) than yourself. I guess I'm lazy that way. ;-)

The strictly intellectual component isn't important to me at all, but before I got married, I rarely attracted dumb women (in my estimation, at least), for whatever reason. In terms of marriage material, the zen-wisdom-sanity-balance thing is very important to me, and I feel that I married someone who has more of that than anyone I have ever met, male or female.

Shared sense of humour is probably more important.

If you can write one coherent paragraph, about anything, and punctuate it properly, and the grammar checks out, then you are in the 96th percentile and that's good enough for me.

I tend to attract...dumb women...dumb women who for whatever reason think I'm much smarter than I am...crazies...the kind of women who are impressed by any goof with a guitar...teenage girls who think I'm 20...and once in a real great while I attract someone funny, reasonably intelligent, sweet and all-around pretty awesome. But usually the others.

Intelligence is very important, though I must say humor, good nature, self awareness, zest for life, girth of ass, etc., usually find their place somewhere a little higher on my list of criteria.

wanko and I could never marry

I never will marry or be no man's wife
I expect to live single all the days of my life
The shells in the ocean shall be my deathbed
The fish in deep water swim over my head

no one prefer their intellectual inferior?

Of my four significant relationships, they were all at least as intelligent as I am, and probably more intelligent in most regards. I have no idea why any of the first three dated me, and even less of an idea (most days) of why my wife married me ;-).

I dated "dumb" girls, and they were...dumb. I don't mean to call them that because I KNOW I WAS SMARTER, but they acted dumb. You know? Look...here's what I mean...

There are very few people who are CLEARLY smarter than everyone about everything. Most of us have our intelligences, and spend our late adolesence-early adulthood learning how to maximize/utilize those to achieve the life we want. That's what I think I find most attractive about people I am attracted to...that search and constant refitting of themselves into life.

The "dumb" girls simply went along with whatever was told them, regardless of how much intellectual horsepower they had and chose not to use. Shit, I dated dumb girls who went to great schools, dumb girls who had great, challenging jobs, but they were emotional idiots who weren't in touch with what THEY wanted at all. I dated girls who constantly contradicted everything I said or wanted to do, but in a "Oh yeah!?!?! FUCK THAT!!!!" sort of way, instead of "Well, why? Okay, if that's why, howsabout THIS instead?"

I don't know...the thread question sounds like we should all have our SAT scores tattooed on our foreheads.

Dude, Rabies, quit playing guitar and start rocking the shit out of a synthesizer.

Mainly the main thing is one person should be able to make the other laugh ass off, constantly. And then if you both discover you love talking about evidence of old world diseases in Roman skeletons or something, too, then all the better.

To attract...prog chicks? I DUNNOOOO... (xp)

As for the following post... I agree but I think I'd be asking for a severe grass-is-always-greener scenario without the latter.

I mean I would eventually find myself thirsting for that and do something stupid like leave her (hypothetical funny but dumb girl) for some crusty academic schmuck.

Mainly the main thing is one person should be able to make the other laugh ass off, constantly.

I dunno. My wife thinks that my jokes are terrible, but we still get on. I did actually make her laugh the other day, to mildly catastrophic consequences. We were making sweet love and I said to her, "baby, we fit together like a glove. A glove with one finger." The amount of laughter I got out of her was totally worth the end of the sexing.

Yes, all my jokes are kinda dorky like that.

ok that's hilarious.

it was an informative post -- maybe a little too informative.

yeah i was thinking that... but still laughing at the joke.

most people are intelligent about things they care about.

-- ryan (ryan), Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:05 AM (3 years ago)

Just to requote one of the most salient points made in this thread.

And just to say again what most people already know, compatibility is not the same as equivalence. What is far more important is that the two people can consider themselves as equals in the broadest sense and share a mutual respect on that basis.

I'm really not sure how to measure intelligence, if we can carry on a conversation that's smart enough for me. The guy I'm currently hung up on has a different education level & his emails are full of awful misspellings, but it's endearing because I think HE'S wonderful. (*sigh of sadness at communicating via email*)

What IS important is that I cannot date someone who says that I read too much, am too analytical, or think I am too smart. I really LIKE to read and don't plan to stop. I do tend to be more analytical and less emotionally expressive than a lot of people, that's just a personality trait. (Also, I don't think I'm smarter than anyone else, that comment is something a couple of people have assumed due to the first two.) Guys just have to accept that, and if they have problems it has less to do with intelligence than a personality clash.

"We were making sweet love and I said to her, "baby, we fit together like a glove. A glove with one finger." The amount of laughter I got out of her was totally worth the end of the sexing."

That's absolutely hilarious.

I do tend to be more analytical and less emotionally expressive than a lot of people, that's just a personality trait. (Also, I don't think I'm smarter than anyone else, that comment is something a couple of people have assumed due to the first two.) Guys just have to accept that, and if they have problems it has less to do with intelligence than a personality clash.

Yeah this holds pretty true for me as well. It's started to bother my gf, she's complained recently that I'm "always so fucking logical about things" and "can't you show a little emotion about something for once?"

I don't have the temerity to suggest that she's covering the emotional quadrant for the both of us.

Big Trouble in Little Hoosville

It's weird though, I feel like I need a fireball as a foil. Otherwise (I worry) I might spend all my time reading and tut-tutting and listening to rap alone.

Like I don't know that I'm compatible with someone like myself.

Mainly the main thing is one person should be able to make the other laugh ass off, constantly. And then if you both discover you love talking about evidence of old world diseases in Roman skeletons or something, too, then all the better.

i think so! tho i tend to laugh a lot, i am in truth kinda picky abt what i laugh at, to the point of getting mildly annoyed at people laughing at stupid stuff that i don't think is funny, haha, like how are you laughing at *that* when *this* is clearly faaar more funny?? so yeah, lols are kind of my gauge of intelligence

I've never ever ever ever ever ever ever in my life been able to bag a "norm"; personalities just don't mix, I guess. "omg derek jeter is sooooo hot" "uhhh, yeah." So, by default, the only matches I've ever made were with smarties. Screw you, norms, u dont know wat u r missing

of course it's been shown (by scientists) that smarter people are often more attractive, so whatever.

haha scientists would say that!

"I don't have the temerity to suggest that she's covering the emotional quadrant for the both of us."

yes EXACTLY! i have wanted to say that. (yet i have also had a relationship where i definitely was covering the emotional quadrant for the both of us, and when you've got me doing that, it's basically a sign of failure.)

hahaha rrrobyn

my own answer to this q. is that i'm generally attracted to intelligent ppl, but the sort of intelligence i like is often verbal or emotional rather than academic. current crush has all 3

They have to fucking read. This is non-negotiable. I was in a relationship with someone whose literary diet was paltry enough to convince me that things would never last.

she's complained recently that I'm "always so fucking logical about things" and "can't you show a little emotion about something for once?"

Hoos, this needs commenting on.

Having emotions is not a choice. They arise spontaneously and can't be willed into existance. If they are arising, but weakly, then there is little to show and that's all there is to it.

OTOH, it is possible to supress emotions, which is not the same thing as not having them, but more a matter of smothering them, in the way you can smother a fire by depriving it of oxygen. The emotional equivalent of oxygen is expression.

The purpose of emotions is to motivate you. If you never felt sadness, happiness, or anger, you would simply sit in a chair with a thousand mile stare and never have a reaosn to budge.

The purpose of emotion is not to discern right action from wrong action. That is the value of reason (a better word than logic, which is more mathematical than reason) and imagination.

Reasoning allows you to foresee consequences and imagining those consequences can help you identify how you would feel about that outcome, iow, discover if you desire it or would rather avoid it. All three of these are needed to steer your course.

It is perfectly possible to express emotions without letting them control your actions. You can rage without hurting others, cry without wounding yourself with self pity, laugh without becoming antic, fear without cowering. This is healthy. Supressing emotions is not.

So, you need to understand the dynamic that is causing your girlfriend's complaint. If it is just a matter of not showing emotion because most daily events do not strongly give rise to them, you're ok. But, if you are not showing emotions in deeper matters of love and relationship, consider this as a warning sign. Try to figure out what is intercepting the normal expression of your emotions and unblock them. Your life will be much richer (although more dangerous) if you do.

There's a difference between feeling emotions and expressing them as they come, though. Personally, I distinguish between laying out all your emotional reactions, on the one hand, or discussing a situation and what the best possible outcome is, on the other. Of course, you can do both, and in situations that aren't too charged it's best to. But if you're disagreeing with someone or dealing with a concrete problem, I would definitely rather discuss and plan responses than have an emotional free-for-all first because once you start voicing negative feelings toward the other person in the heat of strong emotion...well, most people can't do that in a way that's not incredibly hurtful, so maybe it's best to just wait until you calm down.

"Analytical" for some people also means "offers advice, ideas, or questions when really I just want to wallow in self-pity," and I am trying to figure out when that's what they mean so I can say "how rotten" and let them wallow.

That is about 95% of the time, or more, actually.

Yeah, I think that's true. I am that 5% freak who brings things up because she actually wants solutions (if the problems are the solvable sort).

I don't have the temerity to suggest that she's covering the emotional quadrant for the both of us.

Um, you absolutely need to say this in some form or other, IMHO, if this is what's going on -- say, if she's not giving you the space to loosen up and be expressive because she's melting down too often.

Also, I hate the idea that logic and emotion are polar opposites -- they're totally not, and a person can be profoundly logical and expressive at the same time (or totally irrational and completely inexpressive).

xpost if/when people need to wallow in self-pity, then "I want to be alone for a few hours" is the key phrase there, sooner or later at least

In short, yes. Everyone I've ever dated has been as smart if not smarter and my husband is honestly the most (almost freakishly lol) intelligent person I've ever met - no question. I once "dated" a very cute but dim guy in college and it was horrible. We had absolutely nothing to talk about and he complained that I was "too serious"!!

where I said "logic(al)", above, substitute "reason(able)"

In my experience, girlfriends who've complained that I'm not "emotional" enough have themselves harbored serious conflict-attraction tendencies. You know, the kind who thinks that life isn't real unless you are fighting about something? Maybe that's not the case here, but just keep in mind that there are other logical, rational, reasonable fish out there in the sea.

odd, never saw the thread, but have been thinking about this recently.

like people said upthread, Interesting != Intelligent

there are lots of ways to get along

people have to give each other a chance

I'd rather not hang out with too many academics too much of the time

reading, books - these are important for sure. but so are pop (music) and (alcoholic) drink.

My boyfriend has no complaints about emotion as such, but complains a LOT that I argue too much. I think he thinks I do it to try to be right, but actually I do it to gauge my own position on things that he knows a lot about (theology) and I don't. I have to argue it out to work out what I think of what he's saying. What am I supposed to say? He half-jokingly tells me to 'say 'yes, dear'' but he really is only half joking.

I love arguing about theology for exactly that reason! Most people don't though, they think it's confrontational or just weird and not as interesting as I do. I would offer to argue with you...but I don't know a lot about it.

I originally argued very carefully and respectfully around it to try to get some kind of handle on my Christian boyfrien. It's only lately, after much angst over why I am not very happy about how these conversations go, that I realised it's all going one way. He thinks he knows how liberal atheist tolerant types think already, so he doesn't often bother unpicking anything I say very much. So now I just go in guns blazing with only a glancing regard for his deepest feelings, the place of God in his life, etc. This is not going well :-( And I'm sure his side of the story doesn't pile all the blame on his side as easily as I've just done.

xpost Maria, are you a Christian? - do you not believe in God as well as not know about theology, and argue anyway? I end up arguing like Yossarian's bit on the side in Catch 22: “But the God I don’t believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He’s not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be.”

I am a Christian, which I think helps because other Christians are much less likely to take my arguing as antagonism and much more likely to realize it's me trying to figure things out. But I'm an often doubtful and non-conservative recent convert, so I am actually more comfortable and familiar with the non-believer stance (and refuse to believe in a God who isn't good, just, and merciful beyond belief!). It really does seem to matter *why* you're arguing...is that something you can talk about with your boyfriend, so he realizes it is not about you shooting him down, or do you feel like it's too much about him trying to shoot YOU down?

Yeah, I think I should explain it better to him. I have tried a couple of times, but feel like I'm throwing accusations....

To get back on-topic: he's as smart as or smarter than me, but doesn't always act it. This is important as well. Also, he forgets he's told me things that he's told me tens of times before, and is hurt when I'm not interested or feel I'm having his favourite ideas rammed down my throat. So, intelligence needs RAM and application for it to be any bloody use in a relationship, I feel...

It is perfectly possible to express emotions without letting them control your actions. You can rage without hurting others, cry without wounding yourself with self pity, laugh without becoming antic, fear without cowering. This is healthy.

I absolutely agree, and that's what I try to do. She comes from a highly emotional family though: her mother is a Cuban woman with serious anger issues. She feels intensely and expresses it all the time, and surrounds herself with people that are the same way. That's not really me though.

If it is just a matter of not showing emotion because most daily events do not strongly give rise to them, you're ok. But, if you are not showing emotions in deeper matters of love and relationship, consider this as a warning sign.

I feel it's the former. She hasn't suggested it's the latter, which leads me to believe she wants me to get crazy amped every time a song I like comes on the radio or something.

BTW thanks for the counsel, all. It's appreciated.

Sorry to the rest for the derail!

Nah Hoos it's cool, this thread got quite a bit more interesting during the latter half imo. I feel like commenting on a few things but I need to be walking to work in five minutes, so I'm off!

her mother is a Cuban woman

i'm not cuban, but growing up about 50% of the people i knew were. you seem to know this as well as anyone, but CAREFUL! CRAZY!

anger is a big thing

My wife says she can't answer the question, as -- que comedy drumroll -- she's never dated anyone who is her "intellectual equivalent or superior."

She isn't wrong.