Anti-ambition: is it self-denial or self-preservation?

So the sage will be neither extravagant nor violent.

windows i have open: funding application, ilx.

well yeah. a lot of people interpret "doesn't want to do ethically dubious things towards an end of corporate greed and mad money" as "anti-ambitious," as if that's the only way one can be ambitious.

Damn straight!

people like fidel castro were ambitious, i suppose. not that i'm bigging him up. i think a lot of people are ambitious in the 'moral crusade' sense.

Personal goals/experiences? Such as having read x number of books by the end of the year, etc. That's not really a status thing unless you're the type of person who has to keep talking about it.

(xpost: Gawd, people who go on and on and on about the number of books they read a year are FUCKING TEDIOUS and need to be killed before the anti-ambitious.)

depends how much money. after a while, you don't... really... NEED any more.

Yes, they are worse than almost anybody.

Wealth, status (fame is just a type of status, really), salvation, spiritual growth, intellectual growth, artistic growth, hedonism, philanthropism (in the broader sense), environmentalism, and family.

That is my comprehensive list of possible ambitions.

maybe not "before," but otherwise otm.

It's just that of all the ambitions, I find it hardest to imagine anyone sitting there at the end of their life thinking: "Well, thank God I spent as much time and effort as I did amassing all those possessions, because in the final analysis, that's the most important thing."

Ambition for wealth as an end in itself = dud.

xposts

Hmm. What about doing something just to soothe one's self? For example, I don't really strive to write compositions or create music but I just get a sort of artistic itch that needs to be fulfilled and after it's done I feel much calmer. So essentially, I'm doing it to please myself, but in a therapeutic sense instead of just finding a way to pat myself on the back. Would that constitute as ambition?

jesus, this is all very de bottonish.

perhaps the blog form is a strange reflection of 'ambition'. no-one would say that writing a blog was a fine ambition, yet writing a book is. this is only because getting a book published is difficult. in theory, a blog can be as good as a book.

depends how much money. after a while, you don't... really... NEED any more.

Well, okay, but if you do something that could directly generate oodles and oodles and oodles of money, why is it a bad thing to pursue it? Furthermore, perhaps you're all set for your needs, but what about your kids? Your grandchildren? Your great-grandchildren? Etc etc.

xpost to ian

Oh yeah, cause propagating generations of trustafarians is really urgent and key.

I have ambition but directed towards a variety of ends, which combined with a natural lassitude on my part means I advance in fits and starts, often. But somehow things come through and I can build on what has happened, and many goals have been achieved almost without me noticing. So no complaints there. :-)

xpost wow dan you're a jackass

for the children.

that doesn't sound like 'ambition', jody

A lack of ambition keeps you from logging in, I suppose.

on a bear.

i wonder how the 'shoegazing' gene will get passed on...

I have heard of this Goncharov.

I think the mistake on this thread is to talk about "ambition" in some overarching life sense, like wanting loads of cash or actual fame. This stuff operates on a much smaller level, I think. It operates in terms of well-educated people who complain about their $10/hour jobs, but come up with loads of excuses for why they're not after something better -- not wealth, but just the money they'd obviously like. It operates in terms of people who make art they think is brilliant and then sit back complaining about the art people actually consume -- without ever taking the step of, say, trying to find an agent for their supposedly-brilliant book. Yes, there are people who are content with the $10 and the unpublished book, because they have other things in their life to care about, and those people are fine. But in plenty of cases, the anti-ambition rhetoric is a rationalization, a way of avoiding putting oneself in any sort of competitive or potentially-embarrassing arena -- even though the person genuinely craves the accomplishment on the other end of it. It's very easy to imagine that the going-after-it part is vulgar and dirty, and that ideally the accomplishment will come magically: someone will recognize your brilliance and randomly offer you the perfect job, or your book will magically make its way to some publisher who does something great with it. And this is a bad way of thinking.

Plenty of ambitions beyond the vulgar ones: having money to retire with. Owning a home. Leading a community group to accomplish something good. Helping your friends and family. Running a small business. Getting a job you like. Successfully creating and distributing your art or craft. Playing a role in some subculture. Making a difference in piddly local politics. Whatever: the real danger of this stuff isn't in the goals, it's in the difference between sitting back rationalizing your uninvolvement and getting over that enough to actually try to do something with yourself, whatever the motivations are.

Those people who are unambitious for "political" reasons, they're not actually "unambitious" -- they're the ones who are always flitting around setting up cooperative living spaces and teaching people how to knit. And that's fine. Being lazy and doing nothing is fine, so long as you're honest about it. But wanting to be involved with things, and instead sitting home suffering from boredom and thwarted fantasies, all because you can't quite put yourself out there and try to accomplish the things you want to ... I've half been there, and it's not good, and I worry that I know a lot of people like me who've fallen prey to similar things.

PS: Fuck off, oops.

True, and often a problem for me. At the same time, more than once opportunity *has* magically appeared -- I think the trick, though, is to be motivated enough to grab after it, so that comes into play.

Plenty of ambitions beyond the vulgar ones: having money to retire with. Owning a home.

Actually I'd say these are potentially quite vulgar! Or rather, vulgar but presumed to be necessary for modern life.

True, true. It's hard for me to say what digs a bit at me here -- I think the 'ideal,' let's say, of the Perfect American Life in particular -- one's home as one's castle, the cozy retirement trips, etc. -- has been grievously oversold as a status symbol. To my mind, for instance, it's why around here in Orange County there's such a terrible problem with development run rampant, everyone wants their own full house and garden and lawn and etc. etc. It's a bit of an unsustainable model, at least for where I'm at and with what I see -- there's lesser emphasis on developing more shared condos, townhouses, etc. (and even that still has this idea that if you don't actually *buy* a place you're not yet 'serious,' somehow -- almost like it's some mark of necessary maturity). It's almost like a symptom of a national 'keeping up with the Joneses' syndrome that I admit I'm not comfortable with.

Now, delving into hypocrisy a bit, I'm certainly quite *glad* that my parents have an excellent financial situation and fully own their house. And I'm glad of my own UC retirement plan, which believe me is quite handy and will grow even more so the longer I choose to be with the UC. Still, though, there's something which weirdly grates on me, and I don't quite know why.

What I said about laziness and cowardice was meant to express a possible difference of perspective - they're not absolutes of badness any more than ambition is.

I've been meditating a lot lately. I don't know if it's selfish navel-gazing or another kind of ambition. I guess the answer is both and neither. It seems to be making me a better person though, in some ways. I'm thinking about the ubermensch a lot lately too, in an abstract way. Maybe Humanity ought to have a goal that's planted in the Material.

I think ambition might be a bad thing if you drag other people into it. That's my revised theory.

Condos and townhomes are great for those who want to be up on top of their neighbors but there are also drawbacks. I hate how far away from everything my parents' house is but I love the fact that I can play my techno recods at club decibels on their stereo without disturbing any neighbors. There's also the financial return aspect of owning your home; if I had bought a condo when I graduated from school as opposed to waiting 6 years, without any other significant changes in my life I would not only have zero debt, but I would also have enough equity in my back pocket to actually afford buying a house out here, a thought that's been coming more and more to the forefront given the thin walls in our building and our desire to start a family soon.

It seems incredibly reductive and unfair to dismiss a legitimate, understandable and (especially for the ILX demographic) attainable desire as yet another example of "'keeping up with the Joneses' syndrome".

erm...

Not in an inflated market like around here, though, where size matters all too deeply, which could be part of the difference in perspective here at heart -- related to this, the size of the mortgages and the series of mortgage refi deals folks I know are going through deeply troubles me, having had problems with debt myself (and admittedly if I let loose exactly the full amount of self-berating I've done at myself for missteps there, and the deeply buried but bitter jealousy I feel towards others -- including people very dear to me -- who avoided those pitfalls to gain the comfortable situation you described exactly, I would lose far too many friends in a twinkling).

Keep in mind too that I've lived extremely comfortably in an apartment situation now for almost three years with no problems at all with a rotating series of neighbors (including an upstairs one) -- quiet as heck, really -- and you and I are obviously much different in terms of family concerns right about now!

Also, finally, there is a sense of commitment a purchase would mean that I simply do not feel and have not felt towards this location, for all the time I've spent here. I honestly feel like many different things could change very soon -- and I still feel some looming, strong sense, as I said, that OC is becoming rapidly unsustainable. Purchasing here would reflect a faith in this community I simply do not subscribe to.

Also even the "some horrible job" deal in that quote is kind of a rationalization in and of itself! I mean, it's one thing to find a low-paying niche that you actually care to be part of, one you're content to put your time into. It's another thing to just write off the entire concept of conventional jobs as soulless drudgery, as if there aren't a million satisfying things people can get to do if they're only willing to do a little dues-paying and show a little, umm, ambition. I mean, in any direction!

(NB like I said, I am maybe criticizing myself / former-self here as much as anything else, except that my excuses weren't "anti-ambition," they were all "but I'm lazy and ineffectual, I could never manage that!")

Ned, where do you draw the line? At a certain point isn't the area you live in as much a part of "keeping up with the Joneses" as the desire to own a house? Why not buy a dirt cheap house in the middle-of-nowhere, Kansas if you're truly unconcerned with the vulgarity of the American dream?

Exactly. Why get worked up about selling your time every day to The Man and then turn around and pay someone else's mortgage for the rest of your life?

And wanting to own yr place = wanting to spend less money, in the end.

How to put this though, Nabisco -- I have a HORROR of debt now. It's almost...not pathological, but I don't see mortgages as investments, but debts and gambling on the future. Now, I know that's pretty impractical and not the whole story, but that's how it feels to me and it will take some time to get over fully. And again, with *where* I am at -- with this market, in this location -- what would be a far less expensive prospect in other corners isn't here, and what to me would be a chance, a debt worth risking, isn't here at present.

But like I said, I know this, and I feel extremely disconnected from this location more with time. Mentally, I think I have been making plans for some sort of big change within the next twelve months for some time, but what it is I am not yet sure. I know, really, that I am a fish out of water here in many ways, but due to chance and good friendship and more I have made it my home for a long while, but I feel something will soon give. And for me, it is better now to be free and able to readily and easily move, possibly for some great distance -- to call an end to a lease, to shed a lot of unnecessary things to move, etc. -- than to be caught up in some more involved tangle.

xpost to your post about water

it still comes out to less when you rent, unless you live someplace like nyc.

otm -- the world is too unstable to really make a good guess how things are going to be in five or ten years.

The total difference in what we pay a month for condo fees and utilities is a difference of $2700/month vs $1700/month. We've owned for four years. We're in a neighborhood that is not going to tank when the housing market crashes because it isn't prohibitively expensive. We are in way better shape than we would have been had we continued renting and, with even a tiny bit of research, you can put yourself in a location near where you need to be that will be a good return on investment.

::twiddles thumbs::

More than fair. In turn I'd object to the idea that NOT owning a house means you are some kind of willful slave to the system and some loser who can't take charge of your own affairs. (I'm not saying anyone here says that, but I am saying that's often the strong subtext I sense -- again, around OC in particular, and that could mean a skewed vision -- in pitches, ads, financial offerings, etc.)

see, if i buy a house, i don't wanna have to think about selling it. i want to, like, LIVE in it. put my roots down there. not have to move (which would be one nice thing about owning, as opposed to renting). some people are too eager to get a financial "return on their investment" before they've even bought the place.

I need to work on being my own life-trainer, J: I feel like I've come to believe all this stuff lately, which is good, but I'm still working on putting it all into practice. The two things that started me thinking a lot about "ambition": (a) freelance writing, where as soon as you sit back and start thinking stuff sucks and you could do better, some voice in the back of your mind should go "well then you should pitch them, you lazy idiot," and (b) fiction writing, where a dozen MFA students can talk shit and be brilliant all they want, but it's the ones who bother finishing books and getting agents who are going to get published.

it's the ones who bother finishing books and getting agents who are going to get published

Finishing books has been no problem for me, my friend, but I will admit the 'getting agents' part has been frustrating when even the agents who say they want to hear from you just send back 'thanks but we've got too much to look through already' notes in turn. I'm not giving up but I *am* highly preferring other ways of getting their attention through work I've done...

Well, as noted by Walter, really it's all down to the person and preference. My folks, for instance, are home-improvement fiends, and very good and practical ones at that -- they enjoy spending both the time and the money.

i would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be able to putter around with interior design, little construction jobs, things like that, but that's all cosmetic, and too much of "upkeep" is drudgery like keeping pipes working and making sure termites aren't eating the foundations.

Well, oddly enough, I feel like something like that last point *has* happened with the writing, but I'll not explain in a public forum (might be easy enough to guess, though). Part of the problem has also been the feeling that this has been a transitional year, and that I've put my foot forward -- in many different areas, not just writing -- only be essentially told to wait. The result has been a building frustration all around, thus leading to alternate things to dig around with. But when friends I know are successful or rewarded in their own fields and I feel stuck, thus the grating. Mind you, I know where and how I am lucky -- good friend Stripey has had a truly awful and truly frustrating year on that front, so strictly speaking I should count my blessings (even if she owns a home and I don't, y'see. ;-) )

Obviously, but I reserve the right to not listen when their "we're so much better off buying" becomes a sales pitch for the National Association of Realtors. Every geographic market is going to be different, and in retrospect I'm glad I never pulled the trigger on a mortgage. To be fair, I'm happier flitting about from place to place and would rather not have the long term drag of dealing with a house and/or permanent residence.

I absolutely agree. I didn't mean to imply that but my defensiveness probably gave that impression. I think people on both sides of the rent vs. buy issue can get extremely defensive -- the renters feeling like they're under intense sales pressure or are somehow losers, and the owners feeling the need to justify their decision while being faced with all of the financial pressures involved in home ownership. My house hasn't given me any kind of extra status in life and has actually caused some weird friction with people who don't think I look like the type of person who should own a house.

On some other thread recently, jaymc freely admitted that he's not a very "ambitious" person, and I agreed that I'm the same way. But jaymc is not a lazy person, and is not in denial about many things, at least not as many as the thread question implies. He's not exactly avoiding life. The man hosts a variety show, fer chrissakes. He plays in a band. So what if he doesn't want to buy a house? He wants to be good at something, for whatever reason -- maybe for personal satisfaction, for something to be proud of, for approval, I won't pretend to know.

And I'm the same way. Maybe not as social, but I understand. I know this about myself: I don't like failing. And I've done it enough to know that I don't like it. With every passing day, my resolve becomes stronger to make myself proud of myself. I don't care about getting ahead, I really don't. Jody's comment about how being poor and miserable is OTM, and I know that tune too, and I'd like to not be poor. But mostly I'd like to feel like a competent member of society. That's my ambition. I am not capable of rationalizing away the fact that I have no real career because careers are for money-grubbers. That's something that people who are both much smarter and much lazier than me tend to do. I try, goddamnit, and often I just plain fail. My ambition is to not fail quite so much.

NB I could Jaymc as "active" in kinda the same sense of "ambitious." Band, variety show, writing criticism, blogging -- this is all the kind of active involvement in stuff you like that lets you accomplish stuff and puts you in position to maybe make something "bigger" of it, should you care to. This is the whole thing about "ambition" -- it doesn't necessarily mean trying to instantly take over the world. It can mean just doing your thing as well as you can, which at least puts you in a position where it can grow naturally into something serious. (Twenty years from now, Jaymc is the TV variety-show Oprah, saying "it started small, but I just kept at it, and what do you know...")

Which fields are these, N.? :)

Jody, my best friend (same age as me) just finished paying off his 30-year mortgage in 13 years, the bastardo. And that 13 years included totally chucking his first career and going back to school to become a massage therapist.

Yes. Yes they do.

Yeah, after living here for several months our neighbor attempted to build a fence on our lot. When we protested he said "oh, I thought you guys were renters." My old boss used to make a lot of strange, pointed comments about it as well.

Anyway, to tie this back into ambition...uh, let's see. Well, it's a very personal thing isn't it? To criticize another person's ambition or to be anti-ambition just seems like jealousy. If you are really free from the desires and ambitions of the world in a completely zenlike way then you probably don't even think or talk about the concept of "ambition" ever, let alone pass judgement on the dreams of others.

xpost...
it freaks me out when people who are younger than i am become homeowners. wtf??

Yes, that's exactly the attitude I was referring to above.

uh.

it's not an "attitude," it's a reflex reaction. it's just strange... admittedly there's a little envy that people who are younger than i am have their shit together in such a way that they can make such "adult" moves.

uh, what?

I always wonder what's going on behind the scenes with people like that... maybe they're running a giant debt (in addition to the mortgage). A former co-worker (way younger than me) bought a house, but couldn't take a vacation or really buy anything else for at least ten years.

that would kill me. it's not worth the compromise just to own a house.

Nabisco, did you really need to specify?!

Why do people think others want to hear about how much money they made selling their house? And why is it socially acceptable for people to discuss such topics? I feel like it is this rampant one-upmanship gone amok.

But similar conversations occur among friends, I think. It seems to be more socially acceptable to talk about how much money you made from your home, than it does to talk about, how much money you have invested, how much you make, how much you've saved, etc. I think because it has this element of chance, of play, people can talk about it under the guise of, look how lucky we got, but it's really just a veiled way of saying, look how much money we are getting. Maybe it's like the version of SAT scores for adults.

doing nails seems to be a pretty easy way to make money. and the korean nail salon near me gets loads of business, so i wouldn't say they're struggling. i see your point now.