"There are no smokin' in Englan'"

It actually weirded me out to see people smoking inside in London this summer.

I used to smoke a pack a day.

Right, try again:

Meaning: Pubs make more money on Cig sales than 'pubgrub' sales?

Not pus, and not selling food to dogs.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1845077,00.html

Serves me right for reading over people's shoulders.

Back in London it did seem backward and uncivilised having smoking in pubs.

The thinking is probably more like "we'll lose more by drinking customers going to other pubs where they *can* smoke, than by not serving food".

The governments current plan is an unworkable fudge.

I can think of a few round me where the choice is clear, but for the majority it'll be a very difficult decision - especially for those who don't have an outside area.

I rather like no-smoking pubs but I rather dislike blanket bans on stuff.

If they would also allow dogs in, get rid of the music and maybe a shove-hapenny board...dear god, what have I become?

Good call. :-)

new york:
http://media.msnbc.msn.com/j/msnbc/1607000/1607981.hmedium.jpg

Don't forget about all of the smoke-easy's that have opened up!

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/revgfx/bost-mass2.jpg

presumably you might lose your table/drinks if you go outside, though?

I don't recall "giving other people lung cancer" being a fundamental part of the Human Rights Act.

ps i don't smoke, so don't be all OH TYPICAL SMOKER ARGUMENT LOL

Standing out on the pavement is twofold silly: crowds of smokers bother passers-by, also usually one can't drink out there due to licensing laws so it is annoying.

Me, I smoke and drink at home now, so when it happens here I'll just probably not go out much. Or not smoke. I dont mind either way *shrug*. Im a tad sick of the vicious "die you smoking bastards" attitude though.

are they really banning smoking in beer gardens?

a man with throat cancer once told me the science of passive smoking, especially *in the open air*, was shaky.

Cue antismokers crackin wise about smokers n garbage now ;)

i still smoked then, and even i remember the massive difference of not going home from work with a sore throat and raw eyes, i can't imagine what it was like for non-smokers. so for the staff at least, i can't believe that there isn't something in the passive smoking argument.

xp

this is a question of manners, rather than law, i think.

Something many smokers seem to lack. Who can forget the classic "hold fag behind yourself at arm's length when not puffing in order to keep smoke out of your face, and who gives a fuck about the poor sod sat at the next table who you're waving it in front of" move.

Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt said the change, expected to take effect in summer 2007, would "save thousands of people's lives".

Ministers gave a free vote amid fears Labour MPs could rebel against plans to exempt clubs and pubs not serving food.

The Commons decided by a margin of 200 to impose a ban on holding a fag behind yourself at arm's length when not puffing in order to keep smoke out of your face, and who gives a fuck about the poor sod sat at the next table who you're waving it in front of in all enclosed public spaces"

private working mens clubs:
i'm argueing with a work colleague about it, i say they're included in the ban, he says they're not.

?

Should prison officers and non-smoking prisoners be compensated by the government for their health being put at risk as prisons are exempt from the ban because, and I quote, they are "like home"?

comment on the bbc site "I'm still going to do it, I don't care if I get a £1,000 fine"

in the US didn't they threaten with the $1,000 'a head' fine, ie you get fined $1,000 for each person in the same pub/restaurant. not sure if it was enforced or just a scare tactic.

The situation in Ireland is not great - every pub has a crowd of people standing outside smoking their heads off that you have to walk through to get in. Last summer I stayed in a lovely country hotel, the entrance of which featured overflowing ashtrays, butts all over the floor & the usual crowd of smokers. It looked shit. An evening's drinking & chat is continually interrupted by half the party disappearing for 20mins at a time.

In practice, having experienced it in action in New York and Dublin, I rather like it.

We had a few pubs here, all part of the same chain, try going smoke-free as an experiment last summer. They gave up within 6 months because they found that takings dropped drastically. However, that was in a situation where most of the local pubs were still smoky - in my village, there are two pubs, about 100yds apart, so all the smokers could easily switch. If all the pubs are smoke-free, there shouldn't be such a big difference.

xpost

To continue in this fashin without incurring the cost of actually buying cigarettes, you'd better take up that place at that prestigious Mayfair Gentleman's Club which you've been turning down all these years.

Or, y'know, get a seat in Parliament which apparently falls outside the ban, since it's a Royal Palace, and therefore a home. Lord Dadaismus is another option but that's not in my gift, sadly.

We've said this before, but smokers do not have a right to smoke and damage other peoples' health. As for smoking and non-smoking bars - it just ain't gonna happen. And it doesn't address the worker safety argument either.
It's not about being sanctimonious - it's about the right for people to be safe from harm. Trying to deny the dangers of passive smoking seems absurd. Cigarette smoke is carcogenic. Go figure.

All this "we're doomed" talk from publicans is rubbish. Scotland's smoking ban comes in next month and people pretty much accept it now. I've noticed less people smoking already. It's having an effect. Also, ash trays are being attached to the walls outside pubs. They're rectangular box like things, so no mess involved.

Does smoking turn people into selfish misanthropes? Cos a lot of people on here sound just like that.

Is there a potential loophole in the law/gap in the market whereby people could set up establishments which were technically private houses but functioned as smoking rooms/pubs?

Worker safety has fuck all to do with it, otherwise it would be banned in prisons and nursing homes. Why protect barmaids but not nurses?

but god yes the clothes/smell thing needs to be sorted out.

I'm not a smoker. Passive smoking - give me some proof that I'm going to die from it.

the healthcare argument is also shaky.

xpost x4

Roy Castle!

But pubs are considerably more smokey than prisons or nursing homes. So of course worker safety has a lot to do with it.

Having fun is fine, but not when it harms others.

I don't hate smokers, but really, some of the arguments they come up with are just absurd.

I am disappointed that they won't let that lady have her breast cancer drug though.

Lord Dalekvoicemus.

Prison economies depend on snout.

"By contrast, what were Londoners afraid of in July 2005, compared to these hugely greater threats of half a century previously? The most likely answer is ‘themselves’: that is, the fear lay in people’s expectations and assumptions about Britain, rather than dread of Wahhabite Islam. ‘In 1940’, Glass continues, ‘Londoners believed they would forge a fairer and better world after the war’, while in 2005 ‘no one believes the world will be better than before the war on terror began’. Indeed, descendants of the Left that tried to build the better world of post-1945 are actually in office and refusing to be deflected from their warlike pursuit of Greatness—least of all by recollections of the Welfare State. ‘Britain’ now means so little that nobody even thinks of looking forward to the popping corks of Victory over Terror Day, or to social rewards that may emerge from ‘buggering on’ in the right spirit. But living nationalism demands a past and a future. If the latter boils down to a cheaper washing-machine imported from China one day soon and getting still farther up the arse of the White House, why bother?"

i'm a non-smoker who finds the extent of your 'harm' argument equally absurd too though.

It's a miracle they've not banned working men's clubs too

-- Sororah T Massacre (stevem7...), February 15th, 2006.

We can debate about exactly how deadly passive smoking is until the cows come home, but ultimately you can't deny that smoking causes harm and makes public places unpleasant for the non-smoking majority.

This is good legislation. Now stop moaning and focus your anger on something important. :)

what?

get some.

harm is a vague term here though. don't know the exact stats for how many people get lung cancer purely because through passive smoking though. any other complaints aren't that important (stinky clothes? boo hoo).

i'm just not quite convinced yet that the extent of the ban/legislation is consistent with everything else.

ultimately though i think society is better without smoking - lung cancer got my grandfather, it may well get my brother (if he doesn't have a coronary at 40) so i'm not that bothered by it, just a bit curious at the reasons given (vs real reasons).

Might not be important to you dude but sure as hell matters A LOT to some of us. thnx

Then I'm sure you won't mind if I bring my dog shit collection to the pub with me and smear some on the seats.

And it's great if it does stop smokers smoking obviously (and there's some evidence to suggest this has happened in Ireland?)

-- Hello Sunshine (fiver_the_bunn...), February 15th, 2006.

no, that would be gross.

Yes, I would because then you'd be a pest, a health hazard and, quite probably, a lunatic and none of my friends who smoke happen to be any of those

there was the 'evidence' that it was helping smokers PULL more because it was easier to strike up conversation outside the bars with a small crowd of men and women.

xpost

Most of my friends who smoke are ALL of those.

Besides, I'm not convinced by claims that dogshit is bad for human health (especially the white stuff) and all it will do is make your clothes stink. I enjoy smearing dogshit around in public places, and I'm sick of the nanny state telling me what I can and can't do.

Dada if you could dismount from your 'middle classes are evil' high horse for a sec and respond to the idea that banning smoking primarily protects WORKERS not fussy pub goers?

-- Archel (slightlyfoxe...), February 15th, 2006.

they grew up under 'uncle' joe stalin! they're ok with the smoke.

My own view is that I think there's more important things for the government to be putting before MPS for action, but hey ho. The arguments that convince me are that it protects the barstaff from passive smoking, and will help those who are giving up and will over time lead to more people choosing to give up.

It will also enable smokers to chat together in pubs, and lead to more smoker couplings, so everyone wins, really.

I bet this guy never had any trouble pulling.

Well, he didn't before he hanged himself last July, anyway.

I suspect one or two of the MPs who voted last night might drink in a pub from time to time.

Fuck a £3 cloakroom and 15 minute queue

If you want to hear my experience of banning smoking in a previous vice filled den of tobacco and other smoke, I'll tell you. It is a sad tale of lakc of any sort of political revolt whatsoever.

Errr. and the argument that less people will start smoking because pubs and clubs are one of the main places where people start smoking.

And the argument that less people will start smoking again after attempting to give up but finding themselves drunk and open to suggestion in a smoky area.

And the argument that people who like to drink good beer or meet up with their friends won't have the experience spoiled by clouds of smoke.

And the argument that the same people won't feel the effects of passive smoking.

And the argument that the people working their won't feel the effects of passive smoking.

And the argument that your clothes and/or skin won't get burnt by some cunt dancing like an even bigger cunt in a club.

...I'm sure there are more.

this is the only one that has really bothered me personally over the years.

will government ban mcdonalds?

And the argument that less people will start smoking again after attempting to give up but finding themselves drunk and open to suggestion in a smoky area.

should they ban sex, too?

And the argument that people who like to drink good beer or meet up with their friends won't have the experience spoiled by clouds of smoke.

totally needs government intervention!

And the argument that the same people won't feel the effects of passive smoking.

go to a non-smoking pub... or deal.

And the argument that the people working their won't feel the effects of passive smoking.

this is the main argument yes.

And the argument that your clothes and/or skin won't get burnt by some cunt dancing like an even bigger cunt in a club.

acting the cunt is wrong and bad manners, but no really grounds for a ban.

I'm not saying that Dave, I'm just saying I'm having difficulty swallowing this argument when it's advanced by a politicians who have hitherto shown no interest in workers' rights.

The "let the market sort it out" argument is sound if markets were ever as dynamic or scientific as economic books suggest. But psychology plays a huge part, and bars=smoky lingers much further in landlords minds over smoky=bad. And the first month of going no smoking we had a 40% hit on turnover. Three months later though we are back to the same level, the staff are healthier and I don't stink of smoke (thus saving money on cleaning bills). Sometimes you have to go with the state to get anything done.

Agreed Dave.

I think this WILL pick up once the plans REALLY kick into gear.

two

So the smell of smoke covers up that of puke etc? What pubs do you people go to?

Argh, I give up. We won anyway! *blows big razzer* :)

Neither will they ban tobaconists. And don't even think about bringing your McDonalds into a pub and thowing it into my beer.

should they ban sex, too?

There are no inherent health risks from sex which I'm aware of, in fact it is usually benificial.

totally needs government intervention!

Damn fucking straight it does, this is MY PINT I'm talking about, and I want to taste it all.

go to a non-smoking pub... or deal.

I go to pubs or clubs for quality of beer, company and/or music. I don't go for clouds of smoke. Unfortunately most non-smoking pubs/clubs get zero out of three on these points. However, in 18 months time I feel someone else may be having to do the dealing .

this is the main argument yes.

glad we agree.

acting the cunt is wrong and bad manners, but no really grounds for a ban.

I agree, but It's a fantastic side-effect.

Tubby: If I don't kick this smack habit I'll be dead in a few years.
Roy: Never mind that... is that a guy smoking over there? Jesus, I'm a goner!

"The crazy dog shit argument would only make sense if there happened to be hundreds of years of tradition of people smearing dog shit on the seats, and if everyone who went into a pub expected there to be dog shit on the seats and everyone who worked in a pub expected there to be dog shit on the seats."

1) Ever been to a Liberal Democrat conference?

2) Need I point out that for hundreds of years we sent children down coal mines, but that just because that's we always did we don't have to carry on doing it?

3) Just because people expect pubs to be smokey, it doesn't mean they have to be. People used to expect hooligans if they went to a football match, then most people grew up, realised it was all a little stupid and moved on. Now people don't expect to get their heads kicked in every other saturday afternoon.

No, they get it kicked in every Friday night instead.

mcdonalds was brought up in response to "the argument that less people will start smoking because pubs and clubs are one of the main places where people start smoking."

so no, it's not a dud.

And that makes me wonder: what else do you want banned because it's bad for people?

will government ban mcdonalds?

i fucking wish.

Oh, and anybody who's seriously suggesting pubs are smokier than geriatric homes hasn't spent much time in one. They nearly all smoke like chimneys. (Although this can't be true, obviously, because they've all died prematurely through smoking)

I don't think we all are.

I wasn't sure of my position at the start of this thread, but actually on reflection I don't give a shit about the rights of people to pursue their dirty little addiction *in public*. I feel sorry for nicotine addicts and I think people should do whatever they like at home, but smoking is disgusting in every way, has no public benefits that I can see, and legislation that keeps it out of my face is GREAT, however doubtful the government's motives are.

Have you ever set fire to a kettle chip? The amount of oil in the keeps them going for quite some time.

That's exactly what your doing when you dismiss the arguments in favour of a ban — this thread is full of people who use pubs all the time and are celebrating widly.

"mcdonalds was brought up in response to the argument that less people will start smoking because pubs and clubs are one of the main places where people start smoking."

I see where you're coming from, but I'd say that there are significant cultural differences involved — ie people start smoking in a pub because they're pissed and everyone else is doing it — and add that big macs are non-addictive.

"Plus for all the talk of other people's smoke doing harm, what about prolonged exposure to computer screens, mobiles, microwaves blah blah that will give ALL OF US teh sickness in 40-30 years or less anyway. "

But MY computer screen will not make YOU ill. Unless I beat you over the head with it .

And the reason OAP homes and prisons have an exemption is because they have been counted as people's private residences.

excellent, this is just the sort of ammo i need.

But MY computer screen will not make YOU ill. Unless I beat you over the head with it .

no but your dogshit analogy did.

They are still places of work. If this legislation is to protect workers' health then why aren't care home workers being protected? Why is it ok to give nurses cancer but not barmaids?

Farmers work around poo all the time.

"why is it ok to give nurses cancer but not barmaids? "

I'm not saying I agree with it, just explaining the facts... That's a very Richard Littlejohn / Bill O'Reilley type line, BTW.

xpost

It has the public benefit of giving those people who enjoy smoking some pleasure

Anway, I must do some work.

It's not - I think that legislation is currently being mooted to ban people smoking in their own homes in the presence of a visiting nurse. How this'll affect nursing homes, gawd knows.

(Just for the record, I'm an anti-smoking smoker if you know what I mean. I'm all for the ban, just so long as Tony gives me a special dispensation.)

xpost Obviously I don't want to get a situation where we're playing into the hands of the cool people.

(did you know that britain has been operating without a chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster for some time, I think this is where the rot starts).

Sick bastards.

If it is wrong for the govt to legislate about something so unimportant, why is it all right to rabbit on all day in its defence?

Eh?

-- PJ Miller (pjmiller6...), February 15th, 2006.

That's as may be but actually wasn't it the best of the options available, in so far as it would have meant most pubs being n/s and a few being s?

However I know that my bar, being the only non-smoking student bar in London (and the only one which serves real ale) has gained a new following for partially this reason. Nevertheless would any landlord willingly forgo a few months of profits for this - not so sure.

Private members clubs can still smoke - so bousey "smokers clubs" will almost certainly be set up. Blairs fudge probably would have gone the other way, with most places being s and a few n/s. In the trade more pubs were thinking of dropping food (the view is that people eat when they come for a drink, they don't go to the pub to eat - so if they aint going because they can't smoke they won't eat either).-

xpost - Hewitt of the elocution lessons (she has actually gone out of her way to speak like that...) said it was because they feared that the pubs which became no-smoking in small villages would close. They knew that market forces would lead to good pubs going out of business. On the whole, I am delighted to see them legislate to escape the logic of the market. Tis pity it took 9 years.

Containing reactionary chunks, with a smooth policy-flavoured coating!

I thought the suggestion of a costly licence for smoking establishments was a pretty good one.

I know Tim, and in a way I think we DO all get that impulse sometimes so maybe I wasn't joking after all. Except usually when I get that impulse I know that nobody is going to legislate to please me, and quite right too. In this case they have and as it turns out, I can't pretend I'm not happy, even though it's not what I consider 'right'.

As I said upthread (probably more than once) I'm against this in principle and for it in practice, but I'm not happy about it, even though it will likely make my life marginally better.

Simple, HM Gov will give it 6 months for the complaints about smokers on the street to come in, then they'll legislate to ban smoking in all public places. New-build houses will have to include nicotine detectors by 2010. Man, it's all in Philip K. Dick.

my co-workers want this!

my one experience of this in dublin was chaos: people sneaking in all over the shop. and that was at a three-level club with doors leading into alleys.

how the fuck this is going to work in - say - the garage or the cathouse in glasgow, which are both up several flights of stairs, i have no idea. guess i'll find out in just over a month. i have to say, i'm quite glad my clubbing days are more infrequent now ;)

but, from a personal point of view, a ban is going to do wonders for me. as those who've drunk with me know only too well, i'm the kind of pathetic wankstrel who will guzzle four pints, then start looking longingly at someone else's tabs sitting on the table. if they're there, and i can smoke them, i will. if i have to bother getting off my arse, losing my seat and shivering outside, i'm almost certainly not going to bother.

so: good for me, and good for my smoking friends, since i won't be nicking their cigs.

Yeah, it's as if the MPs who voted for this have never been to Upstairs At The Garage.

(1) In this Part, "smoke" means smoke tobacco, any substance or mixture which includes it or any other substance or mixture; and a person is to be taken as smoking if the person is holding or otherwise in possession or control of lit tobacco, of any lit substance or mixture which includes tobacco or of any other lit substance or mixture which is in a form or in a receptacle in which it can be smoked.

I assume the English legislation will say something similar.

http://images.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/IMZ/IMZ121/gdo0002.jpg

I don't hate smoking, and there are many times (thankfully I've managed to stay away for the last 3 months) I've partaken in an occasional recreational fag for the cheap, dirty rush - like sniffing poppers. But, if you want a start:

Because it does NO good for you, or anyone around you, makes you age quicker and can cause a whole host of health problems which even the hugh duty on cigarettes doesn't pay for.

Because It makes other people feel sick inhaling the stuff (yes, even in the street - although I'm not sure a ban on smoking in outdoor places would be a good idea - one of the worst feelings in the world is walking behind someone else as they light up and getting a big lung full of crap first thing in the morning)

Because tobacco firms make huge profits, and then hawk their wares on the developing wold in search of greater profit.

Because I don't like my clothes smelling and my eyes stinging and my throat sore and my sense of taste gone.

And I've really got to stop contributing to this thread.

Are you factoring in the savings to be made from all those early deaths?

Actually, smokers: Do any of you REALLY want to smoke because you enjoy it?

The only smokers I've ever met who actually WANT to smoke are either kids or students, the rest would dearly love to give up but don't have the willpower, and usually relapse in pubs.

xpost

xpost

and the following day, when the club owner is faced with a whopping fine and weedy steward is out of a job? what does he do then?

Yeah, it's as if the MPs who voted for this have never been to Upstairs At The Garage.

ho ho ho. in fairness: MPs/MSPs drink. some of them might even have been to nightclubs. they know full well the logistical problems here; they've simply chosen to ignore them. sadly, the scottish executive has done FUCK ALL to offer any guidance to publicans/club owners/etc about how to deal with any of this. it's just shrugged its shoulders and looked sanctimonious.

it's good at that.

sorry, that's meant to be sneering and sarcastic ;)

MPs go to that night club Annabelle's (what I can't find).

lots of xpost

you can't be fined for reporting a crime to the police can you???

(b) that there were no lawful and reasonably practicable means by which the accused could prevent the other person from smoking in the no-smoking premises.

xpost

I can jst imagine Annabelle going round, "Now put that cigarette out, you naughty, naughty boy!"

Is there an Annabelle?

Is Upstairs at the Garage Rooftops?

this statement is wildly untrue.

excuse me, sir, would you mind extinguishing that cig? under the tabbing act o ...

[beat beat BEAT stab BEAT stab BEAT. smoke]

Wait - that was an analogy?

It is not encumbant on my staff to enforce, that is what security is for. But security has bnever been called for this.

I was hoping you were talking about me Pete. I love being an anti-funster. But I never smoked. I did do snuss once though...

I don't see why in nursing home and prisons they don't ban smoking and instead just use nicotine replacment patches/inhalors/gums. Isn't that what they do for hospital stays?

I also don't understand why people don't take up the nicotene inhalor, you can use it whenever wherever you want! What about snuff? Chewing tobacco? What makes a cigarette so much better?

I am looking foward to the ban on smoking in all public places!

Oh and the Manchester Evening News today announced that Manc council are planning on implementing the law THIS summer. The absolute fucking pricks.

Now that's what I call a nicotine habit

i started this morning thankful to be hangover-free...and then i put my suit on and OH NO THE STINK OF SMOKE.