Quebec Separatism - classic or dud

I am anarchist but I don't think élections= piège a cons.

anyway this thread
Quebec/Canada separation motion coming back again
pretty much represent what people here are thinking nowadays about that quebec separatism subject yes?

Speaking of politic in general, I think anarchists should vote even if voting is not a panacea , it is not nothing either:
it can help reduce some suffering right now, help to give a voice to the voiceless, make advance peace, feminism, civil
rights and liberties, social justice, syndicalism, certain ideas like equitable economy,
nationalizing industries that are too profitable, universal healthcare etc

It is not realist to want a total revolution to happen overnight, suddenly finding oneself living in a world where, like,
career counselors in highschool would have to help students figure out if they want
to take part
in capitalism or participatory economy. Not voting = callous but voting should not be the end of one's political involvement.

All that said, I think the future Québécois constitution will make life much easier for more people , including anarchists.

-- Sinister Oink Kingpin (noodle_vagu...), January 16th, 2006. (noodle vague)

I know I'm being over-objectionable, Sebastien, but in a 200 year-old liberal democracy what do the Quebecois really have to complain about?

I am in no way, shape or form sympathetic to the seperatist cause, but Gilles Duceppe said something very illuminating during this campaign. He stated that in 1982, if Ontario had rejected the constitution, that there is no way it would have been signed. He was completely, and totally correct. Deals would have been made and those involved would have bent over backwards until Ontario was satisfied with it. Furthermore, had it been signed without Ontario's assent, there would definitely be some lingering resentment and that's part of what you're seeing in Quebec nowadays. While I do think that seperatist politicians are prone to exaggeration, and outright distortions in some cases, the sense of exclusion and alienation among Quebecers is quite, and very real; and I think that's pretty sad for everyone.

disappear from my sight, redundant thread.

shit.

Democracy, and universal freedom!

If a stranger walks up to me and punches me in the face, and then I punch them back, it doesn't "justify" his original punch.

The fact that people dislike the idea of separatism provides absolutely no further justification for separatism, unless you're motivated entirely by vengeance.

Duceppe's comment, strangely enough, is a variant on this. "If Ontario hadn't signed the constitution, etc. ...", so what? Quebec didn't sign the Constitution because of the separatist movement, not the other way around -- separatism wasn't born out of any Constitutional crisis.

Also, MEECH LAKE. According to Duceppe's logic, if Ontario had held out then everyone would have bent over backwards to get them onboard, whereas if Nfld and Manitoba didn't sign it wouldn't have been as big of a deal. Uhhhhhh .......

If you want to get into who threw the first punch, we could be here a looooong time (do the words "speak white" mean anything to you?)

If some Quebecers' desire to have a country of their own = a punch in the face to you, then clearly that's your problem. I still think that at this point, the over-the-top loony hatefulness of many Canadians on this issue is doing at least as much to feed separatist desire as any past grievances I can think of.

Because the rest of the country does not agree or can not understand this point, we continue to fuel the separatist urge.

Thermo, I can't tell if you're being facetious or not, but "speak white" is what many clerks in Montreal department stores used to say to customers approaching them in French, back when Anglos had most of the economic power in Quebec.

The Chinese folks here in Vancouver can't understand my Scottish accent, so I feel your pain.

they know what they are getting into and they choose to live here, not in ontario or vancouver or whereever. Most of them and their kids learn french, get integrated, become québékers. + our anglo community is probably treated better than most minorities elsewhere in north america.

Maybe all the quebecoius should just go to the Iles de la madelline

a funny/asshole comeback would be something like "and why don't you go die away? but now that you know that most immigrants here feel integrated, can you see how you sort of implied québécois are racists?

I just think they are caught up in nostalgia.

Have you read the other thread? you'll see there are better reasons than that.

enough about that subject already, I have a better one instead!
here is my big idea: americans are more fat and stupid than the rest of the world, it helps to explain why they love right wing economic ideas so much , the neocons, republicans and elected Bush. where to start? Is it worth answering ? Is it borderline insulting if not discarded for being naive?

French and English are the two official languages of Canada, with the exception of Quebec. Considering that the Anglo community has been deprived of the language rights provided to every other Canadian, I'd say your argument is dead in the water. (and that's before we even get to matters of cultural integration)

"americans are more fat and stupid than the rest of the world, it helps to explain why they love right wing economic ideas so much , the neocons, republicans and elected Bush. where to start? Is it worth answering ? Is it borderline insulting if not discarded for being naive?"

true enough!but not all Americans. there are plenty of thin, clever, liberals who hate Bush. WHich was my point about Quebec - 50% want to stay, 50% want to go, not all of them want to leave Canada. ( I know, 50% of america is not thin.)

joke: what's wrong with blacks not wanting to sit in the back of the bus in the first place? the coolest seats are there amiright. I should sell this one to like triumph the insult dog puppet.

ps NoTimeBeforeTime you can't really get services in french in canada outside of québec vs you can get by very well in québec only speaking english.

And yes, sure there is some problems of cultural integration but it's like everywhere else. not everything is perfect and people are working on it. if you want to talk about our problems please don't forget, like, asian youths shooting eachother in the streets of toronto.

Badmouthing separatists /= badmouthing French Canadians, no matter how much you'd like it to.

How does one get by well in Quebec with English only when you can get fined for having an English business card or have the French gestapo tear down your store signs because the English letters are too big? I can't even imagine the uproar if the whole of Ontario let alone Toronto enforced English only signs.
I know some dink towns like The Soo did exactly that, but I still can't believe that it didn't have more to do with the FLS Act and Meech Lake.

You never see this happen? Anyway, and I said this on the other separatism thread, what it boils down to is this: the ONE AND ONLY difference between Evil Separatist French Quebecer Guy and Good Federalist French Quebecer Guy is that one primarily identifies with Quebec and the other with Canada. That's it. (well, I suppose there's also some Quebec-identifying folks who want to stay within Canada - it's all good). So when some (sometimes well-meaning, usually not) asshole comes along and tries to draw a line in the sand with Good on one side and Evil in the other based on federalist vs separatist, at best it raises the suspicion that said jerk might have had very limited contact with actual French Quebecers, and at worst there is the implication that Francophone Person is appreciated to the extent that he/she obeys the wishes of Anglo Person, who BTW really would rather not have all those French words on their cereal box (FWIW, I don't think any ILXers are of the cereal-box moron type).

I'm not implying that she is typical in any way, but that was just a strange moment. I often wonder if Quebec Anglos just assume that friendly Francophones who speak decent English must be federalists (and ill-tempered unilingual ones must be separatists).

Point: disagreeing with separatism = fine, no problem, dynamite, we're not exactly hoping to convert Regina or Calgary or Beaconsfield to the cause. But the overly nasty, sometimes willfully ignorant tone of much anti-separatism commenting really makes you wonder what's hiding behind it.

while i identify way more with quebec than canada, i'm rather cold on the idea of separatism without rejecting it outright, mostly because there are days where it makes more sense than others. it has happened where i speak with people who are "pur laine" and "de souche" (and i have had those terms waved in my visible minority-looking face in a pretty patronizing way, more often than i'd like), and it is brought to my attention that i'm "less" of a real quebecer because i don't support separatism 100% (among other lovely things). i don't equate those people to all separatists, just like you shouldn't assume all federalists are condescending towards the sovereignty movement.

a few ignorants don't typify a whole nation, so it doesn't sour me... mais respire et check l'envers de la médaille, patrick, tu ne peux pas aller pointer un peuple entier du doigt pour quelques ignobles.

Et l'envers de la medaille est exactement ce que j'essaie de connaitre... ca serait bien d'avoir une discussion ouverte ici a propos de tout ca sans que quelqu'un sorte les vieux cliches a propos de l'affichage commercial pis la loi 101 pis toutes ces bebelles-la (remarque que j'ai fait la meme chose ici en sortant le vieux "speak white" du placard). Thanks for your post, man.

Uh, I would never use "less of a quebecer" under any circumstance, let me make that very clear. And the Cowboys Fringants thing... ooh boy... there's just no excuse for that. I hope someone calls them on that shit. That's like Ted Nugent saying "anyone here who doesn't speak english, get the fuck out".

You seemed to imply upthread that someone who may have a belligerent attitude towards separatist/separatism is targeting their ire at all of Quebec. While this may be true for some it is certainly not the rule. I'm sure if you were to put yourself in the shoes of someone in B.C. or Ontario etc you may be able to understand the feeling of (for a lack of a better way of putting this in my stoned state) rejection. I had lived in Ontario for a good chunk of my life and for a good chuck of that believed separatists surely must be one of the most vile breed of humans. I took a trip to visit an old friend in Quebec City not too long ago and very quickly realized that these were not the monsters I had once imagined them to be. I must also say I was not impressed with the attitude of some of the people i met there but for the most part found people to be very nice and shockingly tolerant of my poor english and god awful attempts at french! And I'm sure you must be able to see that some peoples' ott view of your typical separatist/Bloc supporter/whatever is the result of things like distance and is most certainly not a reflection of their view of all Quebec.

euh...
Premierement karl dit TOUJOURS ca en show avant la chanson ''Québécois de souche'' deuxio, en quoi est-ce insultant pour le type d'originbe Vietnamienne?
Est-ce insultant de demander si il y a des chinois en Chine? Des russes en Russie? ''Québécois de souche'', c'est une figure de style pour parler des québécois ayant leurs ancetre en Nouvelle France.
Si tu as le droit de parler de ''Vietnamiens'' pour différencier quelqu'uns aux origines différentes, pourquoi ne pourrions pas parler de Quebecois de souches pour parler des gens avec des origines communes?

p.s. en surplus, quand Karl prononce ca en show, c'est d'une belle ironie, car la chanson ''Québécois de souche', se veut un ode aux Elvis Gratton du Quebec!

probably not.

Calvaire, pourquoi est-ce qu'un Russe dans une grande foule de Russes aurait besoin de dire "y'a-tu des vrais Russes icitte"?? Ca n'a pas d'allure, a moins de vouloir montrer aux spectateurs qui sont de d'autres ethnies qu'ils ne font pas partie de la gang. C'etait peut-etre pas l'intention des Cowboys Fringants, mais c'est le resultat que ca a eu. Thermo a raison - c'est comme dire "y'a tu des blancs icitte?"

A'shop les boys m'ont dit :
"L'foreman veut qu'tu déloades la van
Avant de puncher a fin d'ton shift
J'vas dans shed du shipping chercher
L'packing-slip du gars
Y'a câllé son helper qui dormait su'a switch...

Je suis un québécois de souche
Je chante du Marjo sous la douche
C'est pas que j'sais pas ben parlé
Mais chu un colon anglicisé...

L'garage m'a towé pu d'shock pu d'breaks
Mon muffler est fucké
Une main su'l dash j'ai ouvert le hood
C'est l'gaskett qu'yest jammé
Changé é'spar-plugs la strap de fan pis
É'gallipers
A'ec mes beaux mags mon char est neuf
Bumper à bumper

Je suis un québécois de souche
J'trip ben gros sur Fabienne Larouche
C'est pas que j'sais pas ben parlé
Mais chu un colon anglicisé...

Solo de gazou :

'Sitôt parké dans l'driveway
J'vas su'l sundeck starter l'charcoal
C'est moé qu'y est l'cook qui check
Les chops ou ben les steaks
Une fois cleané j'me pitch su'l lazy-boy
A'ec ma darling
On r'garde les sitcomm
Pis les talkshows des states

(Pis les talkshows des states!!!)

Je suis un québécois de souche
J'ai une fleur de lys tatouée sa bouche
C'est pas que ché pas ben parler
Mais chu un colon anglicisé
Un colon anglicisé
An englished colon...

Cha cha cha !!!

anyway, flag-waving sucks, no matter how much of an underdog the nation is. i was at a cowboy fringants show recently and at one point, the singer yelled out "est-ce qu'il y a des québécois de souche icitte?" and the crowd went ballistic and cheered for minutes. pretty uncomfortable for a vietnamese guy (who was born and raised here), i'd say.

for those who didn't get it, turns out alex just "didn't get it".
"natives" kébékers in the lyrics = was a joke. grotesque poor americanized caricature colonized in their self-expression.incidentally made me think of that fairly boring article posted on ile recently about ethic and "cosmopolitanism" /what was the negative word again...infected..corrupted or something bigesthsitoftdayrear!

Obviously I can't ask you to speak on behalf of everyone with seperatist leanings, but why don't you feel as though Canada is your country as well? I ask that because in spite of being born and raised in Ontario, I have spent a lot of time in Quebec and have always felt at home there; much more so than in BC or the prairies for example. Est-ce qu'il y a quelque chose que les Anglos peuvent faire pour changer votre opinion?

My idea was that English-speaking Canadians should start speaking French all the time just to see how pissed off les autres, er, got.

maybe it would've gotten a chuckle out of it if i was watching it in my living room on DVD...

J-Rock - the borderline-homicidal statements often made by rest-of-Canadians about separatism/French Quebecers often make me think that not only are we not wanted, but that mutual understanding at any level is an unreachable goal... nobody expects the rest of Canada to be delighted about there being a separatist movement but man, do things get one-sided, and it upsets a lot of Quebecers who might otherwise be more lukewarm about the whole thing. Another factor is that French Quebecers are far less likely than Anglo Quebecers to have friends/relatives in the rest of Canada, or to have lived in other provinces, so our cultural frame of reference tends to be Quebec even before you bring any kind of resentment or politics into it. The Rockies are, I'm sure, a wonderful place, and so is New York City - both seem just as foreign, but NYC is far closer and cheaper to get to from Montreal (I'm not sure I know anyone who's been to the Rockies!)

Article 52 of Bill 101
"Les catalogues, les brochures, les dépliants, les annuaires commerciaux et toute autre publication de même nature doivent être rédigés en français."

And guess what a business card falls under? So unless someone asks for an English business card, I am not allowed to give them my card. Which makes things awkward when I supposed to be supporting clients and coworkers in Montreal while working for a Quebec based company.

Now, in French Quebec, none of this is controversial or a big deal - debates get heated, but there are plenty of people on both sides and no one will ostracize you. It's only as my English improved and I started reading more that I discovered that in the eyes of many people, my support for separation made me (and many people I knew, including family members) ignorant, a bigot, a poor confused soul, a traitor, a white supremacist, a dishonest devious human being with an ominous hidden agenda, a member of a primitive anti-democratic people who badly needed Anglos' civilizing influence, etc. etc. That did not sit well with me.

It is indeed not relevant - it just comes up a lot in attacks on separatists.

It really isn't that relevant, but I think that Parizeau's "concession" speech back in 1995 did a lot more damage than people give it credit for. I don"t know how it played in Quebec, but the English media jumped all over it, as it provided a very easy way in which to villify all seperatists. It sounds overly simplistic, but a lot of the animosity which permeates the seperatism debate results from the fact that the parties involved really aren't communicating in any kind of meaningful way. For an anglophone living out west for example, French is something that you see on cereal boxes and is a class that you have to take up until you are allowed to drop it after grade 10. For many Quebecers, English Canada is about as close as the moon. It's this psychological gap which saddens me the most. Canada is somewhat of a rare example in the world, where two different founding cultures still exist - reasonably peacefully. French Canadians have retained thier language and culture to a much higher degree than say Louisiana. And while nobody in their right mind would say that relations have not been difficult at times, we haven't resorted to civil war or anything resembling either arpartheid or state sanctioned bigotry. I want to be from a country where these two cultures can co-exist peacefully. And not in a way in which we merely "tolerate" each other, but one in which both cultures respect and acknowledge what can be gained from each other. "Seperatists" are easy to hate for a lot of English Canadians because they are an abstraction. Once you meet you some in the flesh however, you realize that they are reasonable, kind, and rather ordinary people who feel cut-off from the country that we instinctively identify with. Some even end up being your friends, and while my family in Quebec are federalists, they don't have the knee-jerk, rabid anti-seperatist feelings which are so prevalent throughout the rest of the country. Not enough people in the rest of the country have ever bothered to ask themselves why Quebecers feel llike they are from a different country, Instead of trying to bully them into staying, we should aim to be the kind of country that they don't want to leave. Obviously, there are radicals for whom nothing will ever be enough, but I'm sure that there are a lot of others with more moderate views whose concerns are not being addressed.

I have many problems with this. First of all, replace "Quebec" with "Ontario", and you've described my life with the exception of the language part (but something like 40% of Torontonians have a mother tongue other than English, so there are plenty of people who could relate to that part of it, including many friends of mine). There are lots of Italian immigrants who live here in Little Italy and identify more with Italian culture than Canadian culture. If you went to, say, Munich and took a poll, they would say they identify more with Bavarian culture than German culture. If you went to practically any US state, they would tell you they identify more with their state of origin -- California or Georgia or New York or Texas culture than they do with the country as a whole. All of this is normal -- and expected!

Canadian culture = the sum of its respective cultures. Every ethnic group doesn't live in a bubble where its culture evolves independently of the rest of Canada. If you live here, you contribute to Canadian culture. Italian Canadians =! Italians, etc.

Now suppose, for example, the Chinese Canadian community decided that in order to preserve their Chinese heritage, all of their children were required to receive their schooling in Chinese, with the exception of children of mixed heritage with one parent from an Anglophone country. Obviously they will identify less with Canadian things and more with Chinese things, not least because they were mandated to speak only Chinese with other Chinese people. The rule accomplishes what it was set out to do -- force children to forge stronger bonds with their Chinese culture at the expense of forming a much deeper divide between them and the language, people, and culture of the country they live in. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy -- make new rules/laws that enhance the differences between cultures, and virtually ensure that it will be far more difficult for them to assimilate outside of their culture or ethnic group, and voila, you get a generation of people who can't strongly identify with anything outside of the language and culture they grew up with.

Of course, all of that is fiction here in Ontario, but that's exactly what Bill 101 has done in Quebec.

Obviously this can be applied to the other examples I gave, i.e. German culture = the sum of cultures from its respective provinces. There is no universal "German culture" that blankets every area in the country, even the language differences between north and south are significant.

I am finding this thread interesting... intra-Canadian politics is strange and far more complex than its "normal" european style party system would suggest. Geography seems to be a really big deal in Canadian politics. As well as this whole Quebec separatism stuff, there is a degree of anti-Ontario stuff from some of the people in the Western provinces (I am basing this scientifically on one spat between an Ontarian and an Albertan on another mailing list where the latter was accusing the former of stealing his oil).

Living on the other side of the world, I really don't get Quebec separatism. So people in Quebec mostly speak French while people in the rest of Canada mostly don't. Big mickey, this is hardly an insurmountable divide. I think really that Quebec people need to reclaim a sense of their province as the historic heart of the country. With that in mind, it is perhaps unfortunate that Montreal was not picked as the nation's capital.

This might help answer... er... walt whitman's question. There is certainly an undeniable aspect of being Canadian = not American but there are reasons behind that which itself form a "positive" base for defining what Canada and its' citizens are. Canada's beginning was (mainly) a union between the French Catholics and English protestants. This has allowed for a nation that cannot govern itself by the domination of one group over another but of cooperation, compromise and consensus. As cheesy as that may sound. Canada's beginning was not sprung from revolution (although there were attempts) (poor ones at that) but the end result of peaceful and methodical negotiation. This, in a nutshell (without going into lengthy detail about the war of 1812 etc), forms the basis for how Canadians define themselves and their nation.

And unlike those two cities, Ottawa is located well north of the US-Canada border, making it far more difficult to reach in the event of an American attack. [aside: the remoteness of Ottawa persisted to almost the present day -- it wasn't until the late 90's that proper highways with > two lanes were built for easy transportation access to the capital.]

I remember hearing (several years ago) that in the event of Quebec's separation, the capital would have to be moved to a more neutral/central location. Regina, SK was mentioned. Did I dream this?

Canadian history is routinely dismissed as boring, even by Canadians, because of the lack of "exciting" wars, revolutions, and so on. Most of the history I learned had little to do with how Canada evolved wrt to the US (unlike, say, English and French history, which are so intwined that they are virtually inseparable). It has also been said that other countries' history is our geography. That is, we're "defined" more by lakes, mountains, and moose than we are by who we fought and when.

Canadian history is routinely dismissed as boring, even by Canadians, because of the lack of "exciting" wars, revolutions, and so on.

This is a fairly widespread misconception, and one that I used to harbour as well until I watched that series the CBC produced a few years back, "Canada: A peoples' history". We had more than our share of battles, rebellions, uprisings, massacres, hangings and all the other "good" stuff which we tend to think make other countries' histories so exciting.

Yes, I think the misconception is largely based on the way the country was formed, i.e. not via a large-scale war where we had to fight for our survival or to liberate ourselves. Sitting down at a table = boring history. All that "good" stuff was infighting amongst ourselves.

Waitwaitwait... are you implying that there are, like, tons of Anglo Quebecers just burning with desire to attend French schools and that the law prevents them from doing so? Whatever it is you're saying I'm pretty sure it really has little to do with, why some kid in, say, Chicoutimi identifies primarily with Quebec. And I must have missed the memo that mandated me to speak only to French people. I hope they don't catch me here.

J-Rock OTM - and of course we got strawmen of our own.

Except for us repelling American invasion attempts in 1775 and 1812. The Boer War, World War I (where most people are not aware of our decisive importance in this conflict), World War II, The Korean War and all our various peace keeping missions over the last 50 years!

And yes, there are lots of Anglos just burning with desire to receive some or all of their schooling in French. They are called French immersion schools and there are dozens of them in Toronto alone. However, that had nothing to do with what I was saying, because (correct me if I'm wrong) there is no law that prevents anyone who lives in Quebec from attending a French school. The law describes who is allowed to opt out of a French education.

Also, whatever it is you're saying, I'm pretty sure it has little do with why some kid in, say, Petawawa identifies primarily with Ontario.

And your Florida example doesn't apply to what I wrote either -- why would people who grew up outside of Florida identify primarily with Florida? Find some Florida-born people and ask them (although having not met many born and bred Floridians myself, I'm not sure exactly how they feel about their state of origin. But it is indisputable that plenty of Americans find a way to wave the flag with pride while still primarily identifying with their home state).

Besides the first two, all the other conflicts were fought elsewhere and didn't involve Canada fighting for its very survival. This is what I was trying to get at.

Ah but our contribution in WWI lead greatly to our recognition, internationally, as a sovereign nation. We were still viewed as a colony at that point - it wasn't until after our fighting in that conflict that were allowed to sit at the negotiation table as our own nation. Not as part of the British Empire and not as an American satellite (which was how they viewed us).

Anyhow, I'm just busting your balls at this point, dude!

Patrick, I've been to the Rockies. You know, or at least have eaten Thai food and talked about Def Leppard, with me.

Even after living in Quebec for a year I kind of started to understand the separatist, or at least sovereigntist, POV on an intuitive level. After living in the US for 3 or 4 months, I feel fairly strongly opposed to it. I do think there is some shared national identity/value system that's worth preserving, which I could get into further. (I don't even necessarily feel it's always a good thing; in some ways I'm happier to be in the States right now, at least while I'm not paying all my own bills.)

At the same time, I definitely think Quebec is a distinct society and should have some capacity for self-determination and sovereign decision-making, which can include legislation to protect/promote the French language. But aside from all this stuff about identity and creation myths and historical bonds etc, I'd sincerely like to know, in practical terms, if there is anything you'd have an independent Quebec do that it can't currently do. I suppose I'm asking Patrick (or anyone else who's a separatist) now but it's something I wonder in general wrt the BQ and PQ. Like, are you looking to create a fully independent country with its own military and currency, patrolling its own borders, etc, surrounded by (probably) more-or-less unilingual English countries on all sides? What sorts of steps would this independent country take in terms of policy, economic, social, cultural, foreign, or otherwise? Would Quebec really be economically viable as an independent state? (I do find this last one someone hard to believe, not that I know much about economics.) How would its distinct culture be preserved (and I agree that it should be) better as an independent nation? It really seems to be doing a pretty good job of this as it is from my limited POV.

Mind you, with the possibility of Stephen Harper becoming PM tonight, I'd probably want to separate too.

a. geographically, large chunks of Quebec have hardly anyone speaking English as a first language anyhow (it was that way - more so, actually - before Bill 101)

b. a change in the language law would be likely to result in a small-to-medium number of Francophones sending kids to English schools and not one more Anglo kid going to French school (as you state, nothing in the law is stopping that from happening currently). Nothing earthshaking one way or another (true consequence of Bill 101 = French schoolkids and minorities having far more everyday contact with each other than they previously did - so if anything, maybe it's accomplishing the OPPOSITE of what you say it's doing!)

c. School language laws are an outcome of Quebec nationalism, not the cause of it. If anything, there has to be more French/English interaction going on now, as far far more Montreal Anglos speak French now than they did pre-Bill 101.

I answered that on that other thread. I'm tempted to paste the whole thing here but...
look at souverainete.info maybe?

There were the Upper and Lower Canadian rebellions, Métis uprising and annihilation of the Beothuk. We were still a British colony for all but one of those though.

Could you pass on a link or thread title please? (I'll check the souveraineté link as well.)

(annihilation of the Beothuk only = Canada fighting for its very survival if "Canada" = Beothuks and not UK!)

Because that's a great reason for separation. To prove some asswipe wrong.

I listed that more for conflicts that happened on Canadian soil. But more importantly we are forgetting the most reviting piece of it happened on home soil history with guns and bombs and murder was the FLQ Terrorist Bombings Crisis.

But my high school history classes winded down with WW1 and barely mentioned WW2. Pearson, St Laurent, Dief The Chief and Trudeau were too recent.

Sundar dude? you were an ok poster on that thread , linked upthread, that happened not that long ago: Quebec/Canada separation motion coming back again

(some elements babelfished from souverainete.info)

What could be more legitimate than this universal aspiration of the people to manage their business with broadest possible autonomy?

To choose its own constitution and to establish freely and democratically, on this basis, the laws which will mark out and ensure its development.

While reaching sovereignty, Quebec will recover the totality of the taxes and of the taxes currently perceived by the federal government, that is to say some 33 billion $ annually

The only way of ensuring the continuity and the cultural prosperity of the Québécois nation, whose French language is the fundamental element, it is to make so that it becomes majority in its own country, that it reaches sovereignty.

Sovereignty for the Québécois nation, it is the capacity to find themselves on the same foot as the other nations of the world and to compromise with them, without supervision, intermediary.

So you don't recognize the Québécois nation then. Québécois nation must have a proper national "set up" like other nations do.

I just read the souverainete.info page (and now your comments). Yeah, I got that separatists feel a sense of national pride + desire for self-determination etc. in general terms, with which, as I said, I even agree. I know that an independent country would obv make its own laws, collect its own taxes, and represent itself internationally. What I'm asking is whether there are any specific items of policy that you would like to introduce that you're not currently able to. Like, do you currently have a major issue with the way the Canadian govt is handling resources or something in Quebec that you would do differently? Are there e.g. cultural policies you would want to introduce to promote French that you can't currently introduce? At the end of the day, nationhood is mostly about a bunch of administrative and bureaucratic logistics, right? It's a lot of trouble to take without some clear idea wrt these kinds of questions. I would definitely understand and probably even support the movement if it was a matter of lobbying for greater provincial jurisdiction in some areas or for greater funding for certain provincial programmes (cultural or otherwise).

5xpost

I'm not "blaming" anything on schooling laws, I'm using it as merely one example of the effects of Bill 101. I'm not claiming that a kid from Petawawa would or wouldn't identify with Ontario purely because of his or her schooling. His or her cultural identity would come from being completely immersed in Ontario culture for a large portion of their life (particularly their childhood). Why should people from other provinces or US States feel any less attached to their province or state of origin as Quebecers do to Quebec? As Thermo (and many others on this thread) have written, virutally all of these separatist arguments look every bit as sensible if you replace the word "Quebec" with "Ontario". Should Ontario become its own country too?

I'm not going to play chicken and egg with Bill 101 and Quebec nationalism. What I have been saying (and you have been ignoring), is this:

1) Bill 101 enforces language and cultural distinctions between Quebec and the rest of Canada. No other province has done anything remotely like this.
2) Separatist sentiment is increasing in Quebec.

Can anybody claim that there is no correlation between these two statements? Can anybody claim that Bill 101 (to name but one aspect of Quebec life and culture) is not doing its part to fuel separatism in a manner that would not have arisen otherwise?

because the differences between quebec and the rest of north america are greater than the differences between any two other provinces/states?

I do strongly feel that the quality of French education even in Ontario needs to be significantly improved.

xpost Not sure I agree if you bring states into it.

Bill 101 and separatism both arise from a common impulse, rather than one being an outcome of the other. Language laws did not appear in a vacuum.

All we did was ask you to explain what those differences (outside of language) would be. Specifically what I asked you was what objectives a separate Quebec would peruse that cannot be achieved within Canada. Something that goes beyond self rule just for the sake of it.

If Quebec separated, however, I might probably prefer to be part of an independent Ontario than a "rest of Canada"

Same here. Rest assured that similar sentiments already exist in Alberta irrespective of whether Quebec stays or goes. It's not impossible that Quebec's departure could set off a chain reaction which would radically alter the political and geographical nature of "the rest of Canada". There's also the issue of Quebec's native population who generally don't want to separate and have raised the notion that they might separate from an independent Quebec. It's not meant as Federalist scaremongering, but things could get very messy quite quickly.

what a country this Quebec will be.

I may have brought up poutine in a lighthearted manner, but my point is serious - what is so different about Quebec culture, other than a different language and poutine?

i love how this issue brings out the asshole in canadians. is this movement dormant at the moment?

When Quebec secedes, the rest of what was Canada will join the USA, then everyone will be happy.

Who was being an asshole? Everyone knows noodle vague isn't Canadian, right?

(And separatists were relegated to third-party status in Quebec's last provincial election so I guess the movement is dormant?)

The FLQ was making anglo-parts-of-Montreal bomb threats a few months ago.

i love the quixotic quebecois quest for independence. i can totally understand why theyre sick of hanging out w/the rest of boring ol canada.

Everyone knows noodle vague isn't Canadian, right?

Actually I wonder if everyone at the top of the thread knew this and whether the thread might have gone differently if they had.

just remembered an item i forgot to include in the "help me hate your people" thread: people get offended /give too much media space at some lousy barely known shock jock that said something like "no tough guy syndicalist will ever vote for a fag" and then proceed to not vote for the fag. yeah yeah, lol.

So when did Quebec's sovereign spirit became such blatant xenophobia?

Turbans, hijabs, kippas face restrictions in Quebec; identity debate heats up

Maybe they get it from the mère patrie...

Tabarnac ! Je nécessite pratiquer mon français.

Charter of Quebec values on collision course with Constitution?

This is getting worse everyday.

Yeah, some people at work (mostly francophones) cynically thinking that the PQ is mostly doing this to start a fight with the rest of Canada, which I guess they think might increase support for Quebec sovereignty.

Pretty much everyone I know (admittedly almost exclusively people in the Montreal area, but several of them are people who have voted for the PQ in the past) are very much against this thing.

Yeah there is a massive divide between people in Montreal (who are firmly against it) and people from outside of Montreal who are in favor, because they have never seen a jew or a muslim I guess. Point is, the PQ is steering the province into a full collision with the canadian constitution and it could get very ugly.

All the while, Quebec's economy is sinking.

oy vey

I thought this was a good article on the subject of the Charter, basically backing silverfish's co-workers' thoughts: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/the-pqs-not-racist-just-running-scared/article14224364

Argh, I'm not subscribed to the Globe.

There are ways around their paywall. Turn off cookies, etc. Or there's a fancy approach here: http://www.thealbatross.ca/24185/how-to-get-around-the-globe-and-mail-paywall.

Easiest way should be to go to google.com, and paste the URL into the search field. Click on article. Not failproof, though.

Obama should bomb the Quebec regime in solidarity with the separatists .

I sometimes jokingly tell my American friends that Quebec is the Texas of Canada, but I was not aware of this:

https://twitter.com/decolonialatlas/status/1361871581795020800/photo/1

(in fact, I was under the impression that Hydro sells surplus energy to the US, so I must be misunderstanding something here?)

hm

This might be a good time to mention that while power grids regularly cross state and even international borders, Texas has its own grid to avoid federal regulations, and it's now one of the most unregulated energy systems in the world.

Map: @sasha_trub pic.twitter.com/VNUjZmQLaY

— The Decolonial Atlas (@decolonialatlas) February 17, 2021

Isn’t Alberta the Texas of Canada?

I mean, being serious, there is no part of the US that accurately compares with Quebec. But most Americans of my acquaintance expect QC to be Euro-sophisticated and sexy, while the thread topic and associated "heritage"-worship reminds me of living in the South (not that I've ever lived in Texas).

Then there's shit like this: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreal-newspaper-apologizes-for-n-word-answer-to-crossword-clue

lol wtf

One thing that’s worth pointing out though is that the French n-word, while still really fucking offensive and totally uncalled for in this context, is not quite as offensive as it is in English, so instead of this being a 10/10 on the aggressively racist blunder scale, it’s more of an 8/10. Historically, said word was closer to ‘Negro’ – hence literary and theoretical movements such as ‘Négritude’, which is a pillar of 20th century francophone literature (think of, say, Langston Hughes in the US). There is quite a bit of incomprehension on both sides of the linguistic divide as a result of this (mis)translation (see also: the Lieutenant-Duval scandal at U of Ottawa). I assume similar issues arise in Spanish.

Yeah I kind of figured that was the case without having the native-speaker experience to make sense of the differences, thanks! Good call on Cesaire/négritude, I hadn't made that connection. One thing I'm unclear on is whether the French word has been reclaimed like the English, or if it's the English word that has instead.

And speaking of QC special-ness, I thought it bizarre that the Gazette translated all the language rather than presenting the original plus a translation -- even their translation of the clue makes me wonder what the original wording was. Tbc, I know why they do that, but the politicized antipathy to bilingualism even when stubborn monolingualism causes confusion & ambiguity is super annoying.

i've forgotten most of what i ever knew about power grids, but iirc quebec has dc connections to main eastern grid, so power can be transferred but they aren't on the same ac cycles.

To my knowledge, beyond Césaire and Senghor’s literary/critical reconfiguration, it hasn’t been reclaimed as slang by black francophones to the same extent as its African American counterpart. That said, ‘négro’ is the closest thing to the non-hard ‘r’ version of the English n-word in that there’s a clear in-group vs out-group distinction as to who may or may not use it affectionately. The one ‘loophole’ for the unaltered French word is when it’s used to mean… ‘ghostwriter’, of all things, but that has also stirred up some (admittedly muted) controversy in recent years. And then, of course – since I assume this is what the crossword troll was obliquely addressing given all the media coverage it’s gotten of late – there’s the question of the word’s presence in archival and/or literary texts that are routinely studied in academic spaces (spoiler: I think the instructor’s job is to explain and contextualize and reckon with the legacy of racist language rather than to outright filter it; in some ways, this quarrel reminds me of Adorno’s quip that poetry after Auschwitz is ‘barbaric’).

And yeah, the tendency to translate everything and pretend that you’ve got a perfect one-to-one match drives me up the fucking wall as well. It also happens the other way around.

xp