State of the Union Address 2006

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Who's actually going to watch this thing tomorrow night?

What kinda batshit out-of-left-field thing will take the place of the "M.A.R.S. bitchez" and "high school steroids" mentions of previous years?

Or will there just be more talk about hydrogen cars & such?

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:55 (twenty years ago)

you couldn't pay me enough money to watch this shit.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:58 (twenty years ago)

$100?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:58 (twenty years ago)

he's just gonna lie his ass off and then run like hell. same old. same old.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:58 (twenty years ago)

i can't stand that smug fucker's voice, though kerry's is scarcely better.

mookieproof (mookieproof), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:00 (twenty years ago)

aw c'mon, none of you want to see him crow about getting that fuck Alito on the Supreme Court? or make a one sentence mention of "the need for lobbying reform in congress"?

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:02 (twenty years ago)

$100 aint enough.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:02 (twenty years ago)

"I'm doin' a heckuva job, Umerika."

elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:03 (twenty years ago)

I'm not a glutton for punishment. Three hours of bile getting rose up in my blood. No thanks.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:07 (twenty years ago)

he's talking for three hours? is that even possible?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:07 (twenty years ago)

I might end up paying money to watch this!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:08 (twenty years ago)

see, gabbneb, you really are wacky.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:09 (twenty years ago)

I'll probably watch, I always do, but I can't say as I'll be sober.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:10 (twenty years ago)

have the drinking game rules been posted anywhere yet? should we make our own?

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:11 (twenty years ago)

the big idea this year is his stupid health care "reform" -- less insurance for everyone!

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:12 (twenty years ago)

yeah, that's what i heard. health savings accts for all!

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:13 (twenty years ago)

preview:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/1/27/11451/1587

....as seen in my unvisited thread

Ask a Republican

peepee (peepee), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:14 (twenty years ago)

i remember how everyone fell over themselves to praise him after he revealed, in his state of the union speech, a new US commitment to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to fight AIDS in africa

and then the govt just sort of forgot about actually doing it

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:16 (twenty years ago)

I was just going to mention that!

teeny (teeny), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:00 (twenty years ago)

I'd sooner watch Batman Begins again.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:03 (twenty years ago)

I thought that was the point of the State of the Union Address, to make grandiose claims, stir everyone into a frenzy, and then quietly go back to business as usual. What were the big things he harped on last year? Like, steroid abuse and returning to the moon? I didn't watch so I probably shouldn't talk.

reddening (reddening), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:05 (twenty years ago)

I won't be watching. It pains me to even watch him speak.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 30 January 2006 21:10 (twenty years ago)

He's gonna give hydrogen powered robot suits with broadband and ID chips to everyone, with the quality of the suit based on their standardized test results.

Abbott (Abbott), Monday, 30 January 2006 22:07 (twenty years ago)

Drinking games are up

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:26 (twenty years ago)

Are all the fuckin' Cloture Democrats gonna bend over for him after the speech?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:35 (twenty years ago)

He might kiss another one of them

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:39 (twenty years ago)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush, pushing to take charge of the election-year agenda, planned to say Tuesday that ''America is addicted to oil'' and must break its dependence on foreign suppliers in unstable parts of the world.

In his State of the Union address, Bush was also to renew his commitment to the central pledge of his inaugural address. ''Our nation is committed to an historic, long-term goal -- we seek the end of tyranny in our world,'' he planned to say. ''The future security of America depends on it.''

Excerpts were released in advance of the 9 p.m. EST speech.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 22:24 (twenty years ago)

Place odds that the word "biodiesel" shows up anywhere in the speech

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 22:26 (twenty years ago)

take a look at the preview I posted above before watching the "real" thing

peepee (peepee), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 23:38 (twenty years ago)

America is addicted to oil

One is tempted to sneer, "No shit, Sherlock", but that would be petty of one.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 01:37 (twenty years ago)

funny how their solution to it is to make more of it ourselves. that's like breaking a heroin addiction by pledging to grow your own poppies.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 01:45 (twenty years ago)

anyway, i'm not watching that shit. thank god i worked a day shift today so i don't have to hear/read about it all night. and hey, i actually have batman begins at home, so maybe i'll take morbius' advice.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 01:47 (twenty years ago)

morbs is crazy about that movie for some reason

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 01:51 (twenty years ago)

What channel are you all watching this on?

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:00 (twenty years ago)

"The road of isolationism and protectionism may seem broad and inviting - yet it ends in danger and decline. The only way to protect our people... the only way to secure the peace... the only way to control our destiny is by our leadership."

TRANSLATION (courtesy Moogle Language Tools): "You may want me to call a halt to endless, ruinously expensive wars, but the only way we're going to stave off the fate that befell imperial Rome is to fight everybody on the planet, one by one, or all together if necessary, under my leadership. They all hate us anyhow, so let's drop the big one now."

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:01 (twenty years ago)

morbs is crazy about that movie for some reason

well he allowed that there might be something worse, which is practically a thumbs-up from him. anyway, i don't have any stanley kubrick movies at home to watch.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:03 (twenty years ago)

Anybody fancy a live screaming/hollering SOTU AIM chatroom or is this thread good enough?

truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:03 (twenty years ago)

Dude will no doubt go on and on about how this and that takes "a lot of hard work." Also, about how he is "working hard." I don't think I have ever wanted to punch someone in the face more.

Hikaru Genji (Mingus Dew), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:06 (twenty years ago)

I'm interested in an aim chat:

WIZARDISHUNGRY

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:08 (twenty years ago)

Cindy Sheehan was invited as the guest of a CA member of Congress, sat down, started unfolding a banner, immediately got arrested, and is going to be held until after the address.

truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:08 (twenty years ago)

chatroom ILE SOTU

truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:09 (twenty years ago)

chat me: teenydreams

teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:16 (twenty years ago)

morbius is right, batman begins is pretty fantastic.

gear (gear), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:17 (twenty years ago)

blech. I just turned it on for about a minute. I can't stand to listen to that asshole's voice anymore.

Dave will do (dave225.3), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:18 (twenty years ago)

Cindy Sheehan was invited as the guest of a CA member of Congress, sat down, started unfolding a banner, immediately got arrested, and is going to be held until after the address.

"Gee, thanks Senator Feinstein, I'd love to come along!"

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:18 (twenty years ago)

Boy, this thing went from "The state of our union is strong" to "The ideology of death surrounds us!" awfully quick.

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:19 (twenty years ago)

if anyone doesn't feel like posting their aim name here just invite yourself to aim chat "ilesotu"

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:22 (twenty years ago)

i'm working at the homeless shelter tonight, and they have this on in the other room. from the first 10-15 mins i heard, he was pretty much just copy-pasting in bits from 2002.

Reminded me a lot of when WCW tried to restart the NWO for the fourth or fifth.

kingfish, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:26 (twenty years ago)

he called on hamas to "disarm"

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:30 (twenty years ago)

this is not a serious person

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:30 (twenty years ago)

he just mentioned iran, we're opening the wine

mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:30 (twenty years ago)

If you want laughs.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:37 (twenty years ago)

Didn't he mention democracies upholding their minorities, and then a few sentences later speak of Israel???

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:37 (twenty years ago)

hunh. whaddayaknow. the headlines at Yahoo right now:

---

• Iran said to have nuclear warhead plans
• Activist Cindy Sheehan arrested at Capitol
• Japan to pull all its troops from Iraq by May
• Supreme Court blocks Florida execution

---

kingfish, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:39 (twenty years ago)

xpost
LAST MINUTE LINE EDIT [John J. Miller]
"Cindy Sheehan is in federal custody, and the state of the union is good."

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:40 (twenty years ago)

it's weird, i'm not even annoyed at this. it's just washing over me. usually i'm spitting at things, kicking the cat.

like, despite bush annointing himself with the blood of the soldiers he's fruitlessly sent to die, despite talking of a war that presidents of both parties will fight (assuming he hopes and thinks repubs will win in 2008, that means he foresees at least another seven years of "the war on terror"??) it's like, is this the least momentous state of the union ever, or what???? i just get this huge sense that so much is out of his hands now.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:41 (twenty years ago)

it's crazy how he just totally lies

haha awesome - "congress did not act last year on my program to save social security" - congress erupts with applause!!!

and then he raises his voice and actually yells at them!! haha lovely

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:44 (twenty years ago)

the Dems made a funny!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:46 (twenty years ago)

also, Michael Chertoff claps like a homosexual

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:46 (twenty years ago)

The Corner link is fun seeing the Cato and Heritage wonks trashing Bush. Entertainment.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:48 (twenty years ago)

22%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:48 (twenty years ago)

Ethynol made from the homeless!

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:49 (twenty years ago)

.....and $1.342zillion of for Africa!

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:50 (twenty years ago)

.....$2.3billion to re-affirm base10!

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:52 (twenty years ago)

Competitiveness. By cutting student loans?

Rotgutt (Rotgutt), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:52 (twenty years ago)

Oh I see, this means $ for defense industries.

Rotgutt (Rotgutt), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:53 (twenty years ago)

Mention of abortion = flash to Santorum

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:54 (twenty years ago)

Has he mentioned spying on his opponents?

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:55 (twenty years ago)

gay marriage, katrina, and aids in the SAME SENTENCE

mike h. (mike h.), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:55 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I noticed that one. Fuck, that was ridiculous.

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:56 (twenty years ago)

....or sent to a useless war.

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 02:58 (twenty years ago)

Statistics to think about during the State of the Union Address

1: Rank of 2005 as hottest year on record
(tied with 1998), according to NASA.

100%: Increase in intensity and duration
of hurricanes and tropical storms
since the 1970's, according to a 2005 MIT study.

$100 billion: Estimate of damage caused by
hurricanes hitting the U.S. coast in
2005 alone, according to the National Climatic Data Center.

2030: Year by which Glacier National Park will have no glaciers left, according to the U.S. Geological Survey predictions.

400,000: Square miles of Arctic sea ice that have melted in the last 30 years (roughly the size of Texas), threatening polar bear habitats and further accelerating global warming worldwide, according to the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment.

15%-37%: Amount of plant and animal species that global warming could wipe out by 2050.

1: Rank of the United States as a global warming polluter
compared to other large nations.

6: Number of former U.S. Environmental Protection Agency leaders who say the U.S. is not doing enough to fight global warming.

0: Number of bills passed by Congress to cut global warming pollution.

0: Number of times President Bush has mentioned the words "global warming," or "climate change" in previous State of the Union addresses.

Source

Of course, we know why he won't mention the environment this time either: Al Gore invented it.

Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:03 (twenty years ago)

i don't think people are paying much attention to this one, one way or another. but he did pretty well, i think.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:05 (twenty years ago)

omg, did Brian Williams just refer to Harold Ford as Barack Obama?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:06 (twenty years ago)

Frist is so creepy-looking

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:11 (twenty years ago)

but he did pretty well, i think.

...no embarrassing gaffs

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:12 (twenty years ago)

chindy sheehan was arrested at the capitol during the address.

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:15 (twenty years ago)

http://www.marion.ohio-state.edu/fac/schul/drp/aj.html

boxqbd, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:15 (twenty years ago)

The stated intention to want to change America's "addiction" to oil is touching and, stated baldly by a presiden beholden to Big Energy's interestes, a teensy bit daring, but it ain't going nowhere.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:21 (twenty years ago)

Anyone watching Tim Kaine? He's making some pretty harsh criticisms.

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:22 (twenty years ago)

democratic "response" making me angrier than bush speech did

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:23 (twenty years ago)

How so?

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:25 (twenty years ago)

there's a better way

Miss Misery xox (MissMiseryTX), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:38 (twenty years ago)

maybe i'm watching something else, but all i saw was a dude in a suit in front of a roaring fireplace in a cavernous room, all by himself and very lonely-looking , giving the president far more attention than the president deserves and smiling geneially the whole way through. then again, i was watching it with a dude i had to explain the whole concept -- such as it is -- of the state of the union speech, so maybe that had something to do with it but he didn't move me at all.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:40 (twenty years ago)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Peace activist Cindy Sheehan was arrested Tuesday in the House gallery after refusing to cover up a T-shirt bearing an anti-war slogan before President Bush's State of the Union address.

Is that better or worse than tapping her phone?

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:43 (twenty years ago)

Did the dems pick the only person who is a worse speaker than Bush?

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:46 (twenty years ago)

I think so, Kaine seriously needs to get that eyebrow under control.

truck-patch pixel farmer (my crop froze in the field) (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:48 (twenty years ago)

Highlight of this all was still Bush calling for banning of animal/human hybrids. FEAR TEH CHIMERAS!

Hikaru Genji (Mingus Dew), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:53 (twenty years ago)

i gather bush doesn't like furries

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:55 (twenty years ago)

That's fine for him to say....he's hung like a horse!

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:56 (twenty years ago)

or that baboon heart guy.

xpost

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 03:59 (twenty years ago)

hahaha did kaine deploy THE EYEBROW? i feel bad for missing that. i was listening on the car radio and damn near drove off the road to hear 'congress did not act...' treated like a standard sotu applause line - beautiful. i did catch some of the backslap/handshake positioning routine which is more interesting and telling anyhow - nice shots of harold ford jockeying with dubya and frist, does he stand a shot to win?

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 04:53 (twenty years ago)

ugh, harold ford. better than a republican, i know i know, but the guy's a total slickster.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 05:23 (twenty years ago)

haha i misread that and thought blount was suggesting GERALD FORD could run again. technically he could yknow!!

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 05:25 (twenty years ago)

Did the dems pick the only person who is a worse speaker than Bush?

possibly! No, uh, I like Tim Kaine a lot, he'll do a good job governing VA, but he's not the guy to talk about foreign policy. I am guessing the party thought, OK, he's our red state candidate who won an election, therefore he's the guy to give the speech, but it was odd. I was watching with a bunch of Congress staff peoples & they were like, d'oh, uh.. not so hot, there and again Kaine will be fine at his actual job but they really could use someone to hammer on the foreign policy/Iraq war issues in a real serious way.

dar1a g (daria g), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 06:02 (twenty years ago)

that's exactly the kind of color-by-numbers reactive bullshit the democrats have got to quit. most of the country has no idea who tim kaine is and doesn't care that he goes to church and got elected in a "red state." jesus, just put somebody on tv who looks good and sounds better and good-naturedly explains why the president's a lying sack of shit. how hard is that? (except of course that i can't think of anyone who would be a good candidate for that relatively straightforward task, but god, they must have someone.)

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 06:19 (twenty years ago)

sorry, that wasn't 100% clear, did I mention was watching at a bar? yeah. if I was not imagining stuff even the Republican politics people were like, fed up with everything W had to say re: domestic policy.

dar1a g (daria g), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 06:38 (twenty years ago)

I didn't hear or watch the speech.. but am I the only one who thinks Bush stating that we're addicted to oil is a not-so-bad thing?

Granted, the comment above about solving a heroin addiction by growing our own poppies is OTM... But while most of us thought of this statement as an obvious "uh DUH!", I'm sure many who watched the speech didn't think too clearly about the issue before, and might now. I HIGHLY stress "might", of course.

Then again, Bush stating that the U.S. is addicted to oil is also admitting that the U.S. acted like violent heroin junkies by attacking Iraq to get the ultimate fix pipelined back, which kinda counters the sentiment of the statement... oh right, we're there for "freedom".. forgot about that. (oops)

Dom iNut (donut), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 06:44 (twenty years ago)

sotu response doesn't mean anything anyhow, you always look like the host of the oscars after in that five minutes at the end after they've given out all the awards. they should've either had someone do a quick thing on how while we're paying jacked thru roof gas prices and sometimes even dealing with gas shortages and line exxon runs a $36 billion dollar record breaking profit last year and oil execs refuse to testify before the senate about price gouging with no consequence and then said some equiv of 'wtf' and a quick 'vote democrat' and out. that or just get willie nelson to sing 'america the beautiful' at ground zero and have a dem web address at the bottom of the screen.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 06:49 (twenty years ago)

yeah bush stating we're addicted to oil is a good thing the way him stating we gotta do more about the aids crisis in africa was a good thing. him actually acting on either beyond 'get more oil' or 'don't fuck africans' is another thing altogether though.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 06:52 (twenty years ago)

Acually, I think America is a sort of weird continuation of the British Empire, like it metamorphosed into a big dangerous butterfly, and now we are off to suck the oil from everywhere.

Savor the irony that Bush, who is born into oil wealth says "You guys are addicted to oil!" OK shittymouth, why don't you impose taxes on oil companies or something - OH YEAH THEYRE YOUR FRIENDS!!!!!

Mr. Latham Green (hanle y 3000), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 07:59 (twenty years ago)

I think Kaine took the right tack with his response speech. I'd never seen him speak before, and perhaps he did have a few rough edges and a hyperactive eyebrow, but I think he said basically the right things. It's not a time slot that the opposition party can expect to do a lot with, because no matter what they say, they are going to be seen as an afterthought, which is why, I suspect, the speech is usually delegated to a relatively inexperienced figure without a national profile. But I think Kaine had the potential at least to make some Bush-voting moderates or independents reconsider, if they were watching.

I think it was a good thing for Bush to say that the US is "addicted to oil", but it would be a much better thing if he actually did something about it. Increasing research funding for alternative fuels is nice, but an SUV tax would be better.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:11 (twenty years ago)

I hear Jenna and Barbara are addicted to oil.

OK, was Sheehan arrested for a t-shirt or a banner?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:22 (twenty years ago)

t shirt, allegedly

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:46 (twenty years ago)

Arrested for a t-shirt?! IOW, she was charged with violating the law against freedom of speech. You know the one. It's that law that "Congress shall make no" in the 1st amendment. Fucking hell! This shit has got to stop.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:57 (twenty years ago)

Sheehan tells all

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 16:59 (twenty years ago)

except of course that i can't think of anyone who would be a good candidate for that relatively straightforward task, but god, they must have someone.

Stephen Colbert

TOMBOT, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 17:04 (twenty years ago)

Except the folks they're trying to reach would take SC at face value, esp w/out a studio audience.


More on CS:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/02/sheehans_shirt.html


Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 17:07 (twenty years ago)

I think it's a bit disingenuous of CS to say that she didn't intend to be disruptive. You can't very well sit in the audience of the State of the Union address with a message t-shirt on like that and not expect to be disruptive.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:11 (twenty years ago)

Bush should take a "War On Drugs"™ approach to dealing with Americas' oil addiction.
Anyone caught buying/selling or in possession of oil, no matter how trivial the quantity, will go to prison.

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:11 (twenty years ago)

and not expect to be disruptive

Disruptive? Now, "offensive" I could see. Disruption usually requires something a bit more lively than just sitting down and wearing clothes.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:15 (twenty years ago)

Well, kids are banned from wearing lots of t-shirts to school that are considered disruptive to the learning environment - I don't really see how this is any different.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:19 (twenty years ago)

"GHETTO ADDICTED TO CRACK," SAYS LONG-TIME CRACK DEALER

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:34 (twenty years ago)

"AMERICANS ADDICTED TO RONCO ROTISSERIE ENTREES," SAYS RON POPEIL

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:36 (twenty years ago)

"AMERICANS ADDICTED TO CHEETOS," SAYS FRITO-LAY SPOKESCHEETAH KNOWN ONLY AS "CHESTER"

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:38 (twenty years ago)

"AMERICA LOVES BASEBALL" SAYS FORMER BASEBALL TEAM OWNER.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:38 (twenty years ago)

This doesn't really have to do with the SotU, but sometimes I just love James Wolcott to death:

"If Condoleeza Rice were a Wheel of Fortune contestant, she'd still be staring at the board with a blank expression and an equally blank mind long after the vowels had been chosen, the puzzle solved, the show wrapped, the studio lights dimmed, and Vanna White home doing whatever it is she does to stay peppy."

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Well, kids are banned from wearing lots of t-shirts to school that are considered disruptive to the learning environment - I don't really see how this is any different.

We could start with adults not being children, and the Congress -- where one would expect the Bill of Rights to actually mean something -- not being a school. What, would Bush supporters have been unable to restrain themselves from acting out if they had seen Sheehan's shirt? We're talking grown men and women here, right?

phil d. (Phil D.), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:43 (twenty years ago)

Ritalin and whippets.

aw, xpost

Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:44 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, but I just can't get too worked up about Cindy Sheehan not being allowed to wear whatever she wants to the State of the Union address. There's a time and place for everything, and I'm willing to accept that the SOTU is not the place for protest of that sort.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:48 (twenty years ago)

people get hauled out of the Senate and the House all the time for trying to unfurl banners, display messages, etc. I don't approve of it, but its hardly surprising.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:52 (twenty years ago)

Umm, Phil, a State of the Union address implies a whole lot less of an onus for free speech than a public school, what with it being a private address to which people are specifically invited, not a public institution to which all children are required to go. Not letting Sheehan wear the shirt there isn't particularly different from not letting congresspeople bring big banners and signs to wave around (which we in fact don't let them do, because it would be stupid).

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:54 (twenty years ago)

xpost, sorry, yes. Fairly basic: the thing isn't an open forum or a dialogue, it's a speech. You come, you shut up, you listen, and then you go talk on your own airtime.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 20:56 (twenty years ago)

She came, she saw, she sat down, she shut up. And good for her for wearing that shirt.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 21:08 (twenty years ago)

I'm not saying I want to see beach balls being hit around the gallery and handpainted signs that say "PENNSYLVANIA LUVS SANTORUM" or anything. We're talking about a T-shirt. Is it a bit buffoonish? Perhaps, yeah. Nevertheless, it would have been trivial to just let her sit there with the shirt, and remove her if she genuinely was disruptive.

(I would also be less bothered if this stuff didn't apparently happen to Bush opponents with some regularity, being removed from appearances and whatnot.)

phil d. (Phil D.), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 21:20 (twenty years ago)

apparently she farted

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 21:22 (twenty years ago)

You guys are truly fucked if you're debating a t-shirt when your head dude is guilty (and has admitted as much) of at least a couple of impeachable offences, and everyone's chickenshit to do anything about it. In fact, if his cum was found on a white house intern's dress, he'd nod and wink and walk away the way he does and the majority of his constituents would defend him cuz he works hard and is resolute.

Anyways, Sheehan's cause is helped by being arrested. If they would have left her alone, and kept the cameras off her, I wouldn't be typing this paragraph.

And another thing, the members of congress don't bring in banners and flags, but ain't the jumping up and orgasmic clapping for saying he's for education nearly as over-the-top???

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 23:36 (twenty years ago)

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/44892

peepee (peepee), Wednesday, 1 February 2006 23:59 (twenty years ago)

Police Apologize, Drop Charge:

WASHINGTON - Capitol Police dropped a charge of unlawful conduct against anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan on Wednesday and apologized for ejecting her and a congressman's wife from President Bush's State of the Union address for wearing T-shirts with war messages.

ADVERTISEMENT

"The officers made a good faith, but mistaken effort to enforce an old unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol," Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer said in a statement late Wednesday.

"The policy and procedures were too vague," he added. "The failure to adequately prepare the officers is mine."

The extraordinary statement came a day after police removed Sheehan and Beverly Young, wife of Rep. C.W. "Bill" Young, R-Fla., from the visitors gallery Tuesday night. Sheehan was taken away in handcuffs before Bush's arrival at the Capitol and charged with a misdemeanor, while Young left the gallery and therefore was not arrested, Gainer said.

"Neither guest should have been confronted about the expressive T-shirts," Gainer's statement said.

Gainer added that he was asking the U.S. attorney's office to drop the charge against Sheehan. The statement also said he apologized to the Youngs and "share the department's plans for avoiding this in the future."

"A similar message has been left with Mrs. Sheehan," Gainer said.

phil d. (Phil D.), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:30 (twenty years ago)

gee, how gratifying that must be.

I hate cops.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:45 (twenty years ago)

And another thing, the members of congress don't bring in banners and flags, but ain't the jumping up and orgasmic clapping for saying he's for education nearly as over-the-top???

it's tradition, deal with it.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:51 (twenty years ago)

Well, saying "oops, our bad" is better than silence. On small matters like this an apology is a good outcome. I hope Ms. Sheehan takes it no further.

It is good to note that the Capitol police understood, upon reflection, they had no leg to stand on. One can't help but wonder if they knew this beforehand, and decided that it is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask persmission.

Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:53 (twenty years ago)

"One can't help but wonder if they knew this beforehand, and decided that it is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask persmission."

uhm, DUH. of course that's what they did. Someone in Team Dubya said "get that woman out of here" and the cops said "YESSIR!"

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 2 February 2006 00:58 (twenty years ago)

This part of the AP article pissed me off:
Sheehan's T-shirt alluded to the number of soldiers killed in Iraq: "2245 Dead. How many more?" ...

Young's shirt had just the opposite message: "Support the Troops — Defending Our Freedom."

Emphasis mine up there. Sheehan's view and opinion is not the opposite of "Support the Troops".

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:03 (twenty years ago)

What Really Happened.
by CindySheehan
Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:19:44 AM PDT

Dear Friends,

As most of you have probably heard, I was arrested before the State of the Union Address tonight.

I am speechless with fury at what happened and with grief over what we have lost in our country.

* CindySheehan's diary :: ::
*

There have been lies from the police and distortions by the press. (Shocker) So this is what really happened:

This afternoon at the People's State of the Union Address in DC where I was joined by Congresspersons Lynn Woolsey and John Conyers, Ann Wright, Malik Rahim and John Cavanagh, Lynn brought me a ticket to the State of the Union Address. At that time, I was wearing the shirt that said: 2245 Dead. How many more?

After the PSOTU press conference, I was having second thoughts about going to the SOTU at the Capitol. I didn't feel comfortable going. I knew George Bush would say things that would hurt me and anger me and I knew that I couldn't disrupt the address because Lynn had given me the ticket and I didn't want to be disruptive out of respect for her. I, in fact, had given the ticket to John Bruhns who is in Iraq Veterans Against the War. However, Lynn's office had already called the media and everyone knew I was going to be there so I sucked it up and went.

I got the ticket back from John, and I met one of Congresswoman Barbara Lee's staffers in the Longworth Congressional Office building and we went to the Capitol via the undergroud tunnel. I went through security once, then had to use the rest room and went through security again.

My ticket was in the 5th gallery, front row, fourth seat in. The person who in a few minutes was to arrest me, helped me to my seat.

I had just sat down and I was warm from climbing 3 flights of stairs back up from the bathroom so I unzipped my jacket. I turned to the right to take my left arm out, when the same officer saw my shirt and yelled; "Protester." He then ran over to me, hauled me out of my seat and roughly (with my hands behind my back) shoved me up the stairs. I said something like "I'm going, do you have to be so rough?" By the way, his name is Mike Weight.

The officer ran with me to the elevators yelling at everyone to move out of the way. When we got to the elevators, he cuffed me and took me outside to await a squad car. On the way out, someone behind me said, "That's Cindy Sheehan." At which point the officer who arrested me said: "Take these steps slowly." I said, "You didn't care about being careful when you were dragging me up the other steps." He said, "That's because you were protesting." Wow, I get hauled out of the People's House because I was, "Protesting."

I was never told that I couldn't wear that shirt into the Congress. I was never asked to take it off or zip my jacket back up. If I had been asked to do any of those things...I would have, and written about the suppression of my freedom of speech later. I was immediately, and roughly (I have the bruises and muscle spasms to prove it) hauled off and arrested for "unlawful conduct."

After I had my personal items inventoried and my fingers printed, a nice Sgt. came in and looked at my shirt and said, "2245, huh? I just got back from there."

I told him that my son died there. That's when the enormity of my loss hit me. I have lost my son. I have lost my First Amendment rights. I have lost the country that I love. Where did America go? I started crying in pain.

What did Casey die for? What did the 2244 other brave young Americans die for? What are tens of thousands of them over there in harm's way for still? For this? I can't even wear a shrit that has the number of troops on it that George Bush and his arrogant and ignorant policies are responsible for killing.

I wore the shirt to make a statement. The press knew I was going to be there and I thought every once in awhile they would show me and I would have the shirt on. I did not wear it to be disruptive, or I would have unzipped my jacket during George's speech. If I had any idea what happens to people who wear shirts that make the neocons uncomfortable that I would be arrested...maybe I would have, but I didn't.

There have already been many wild stories out there.

I have some lawyers looking into filing a First Amendment lawsuit against the government for what happened tonight. I will file it. It is time to take our freedoms and our country back.

I don't want to live in a country that prohibits any person, whether he/she has paid the ulitmate price for that country, from wearing, saying, writing, or telephoning any negative statements about the government. That's why I am going to take my freedoms and liberties back. That's why I am not going to let Bushco take anything else away from me...or you.

I am so appreciative of the couple of hundred of protesters who came to the jail while I was locked up to show their support....we have so much potential for good...there is so much good in so many people.

Four hours and 2 jails after I was arrested, I was let out. Again, I am so upset and sore it is hard to think straight.

Keep up the struggle...I promise you I will too.

Love and peace soon,
Cindy

dan bunnybrain (dan bunnybrain), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:04 (twenty years ago)

xpost

I did not couch my comment in terms of their targeting Ms. Sheehan specifically, but in broad sweeping terms - of whether they calculated the wrath of their bosses would fall down hotter on their necks if they allowed one breath of protest to make it before the television cameras, than any possible wrath they might face, if they just strongarmed potential problems offstage and then were forced to eat crow later. That way they look bad, not Bush - a PR version of taking a bullet.

If you don't think this kind of situation hasn't ever been discussed among the Capitol police, quietly among themselves, then you are probably naive.

Aimless (Aimless), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:11 (twenty years ago)

it's tradition, deal with it.

A-ok. I won't point out the sacred absurdities ever again.
(fingers crossed)

peepee (peepee), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:33 (twenty years ago)

The most baffling thing to me about almost all of Bush's plans is the gift he has for proposing solutions that fall so bald-facedly short of addressing the problem they're intended for. Our schools are failing, so let's have more kids take AP classes! We're too dependent on foreign oil -- so I'm pledging $150 MILLION to research biofuel. $150 million? That's probably smaller than some line items in the NYC municipal budget!

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Thursday, 2 February 2006 01:43 (twenty years ago)

Surprise, surprise. Seems like someone else had their fingers crossed:

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/13767738.htm?source=rss&channel=krwashington_nation

peepee (peepee), Thursday, 2 February 2006 12:58 (twenty years ago)

The most baffling thing to me about almost all of Bush's plans is the gift he has for proposing solutions that fall so bald-facedly short of addressing the problem they're intended for.

This shouldn't baffle you in the slightest. Bush was following the Clinton playbook to the letter this time. These are school uniforms and V-chips.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:10 (twenty years ago)

did stuff like this ever happen with right-wing protesters at clinton speeches? i went to a john edwards rally in 2004 and his speech was INTERRUPTED by protesters chanting "four more years" and they didn't get thrown out.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 2 February 2006 16:32 (twenty years ago)

See, this is the kind of stuff that makes it hard for me not to say "Serves her right" -- writing, with no apparent irony whatsoever, on her uncensored, unedited online diary, and knowing that her Congressperson had alerted the press that she'd be attending, " I have lost my First Amendment rights. ".

phil d. (Phil D.), Thursday, 2 February 2006 16:40 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, when do you think ethanol/alt-fuel cars will finally attain supremacy? 2020-2025?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 2 February 2006 16:44 (twenty years ago)

first, I would prefer to see a public rail system that, in the words of JH Kunstler, at least rivals Latvia's

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 2 February 2006 16:51 (twenty years ago)

This article from the NY Times, points out an inconsistency in US tariff policy with Bush's claim to be in favor of alternative fuels and reduced dependency on the Middle East:

Still, unlike Japan and China, which have plans to import Brazilian ethanol, the Bush administration has retained a 54 cent tariff on every gallon of imported ethanol.

"It's remarkable that we're not taxing fuel from Saudi Arabia while we're taxing fuel from Brazil," said Gal Luft, a co-director of the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security, a research organization in Washington that specializes in energy issues.

o. nate (onate), Thursday, 2 February 2006 16:52 (twenty years ago)

SWITCH GRASS MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 2 February 2006 17:05 (twenty years ago)

i didn't see this; i could only read the transcript after. did anyone hear the "not just corn" line as "suck on that, tom harkin"?

geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 2 February 2006 17:07 (twenty years ago)

peepee's link is "hilarious": "WASHINGTON - One day after President Bush vowed to reduce America's dependence on Middle East oil by cutting imports from there 75 percent by 2025, his energy secretary and national economic adviser said Wednesday that the president didn't mean it literally."

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 2 February 2006 17:14 (twenty years ago)

it looks like kunstler felt roughly the same way i did about kaine:
Meanwhile, the official Democratic Party response to Mr. Bush's fucking nonsense was the stupendous fatuousness of newly-elected Virginia Governor Tim Kaine's rebuttal, a saccharine gruel of platitudes and panderings that made me want to shoot members of my own party on sight.

History will look back in wonder and nausea at the twitterings of these idiots as the world they pretended to run lurched into darkness.

http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 6 February 2006 19:28 (twenty years ago)

Well, naturally anything the Democrats might say will seem like "a saccharine gruel of platitudes and panderings" when what you think politicians should be doing is crying "The end is near!" and pouring massive investment into railroads in anticipation of the fast approaching peak-oil energy meltdown.

o. nate (onate), Monday, 6 February 2006 19:42 (twenty years ago)

omg, did Brian Williams just refer to Harold Ford as Barack Obama?

he did!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 7 February 2006 23:50 (twenty years ago)

I don't think Kunstler is a crank, as you make him out to be. Or am I the crank? I'm not sure who you're casting as the wild-eyed doomsayer.

It's nice to think that somehow we've arrived at an age that doesn't require big national ideas and big national risks, and our leaders have nothing more to do than manage our vast machinery. But I don't think that's so.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:02 (twenty years ago)

I'm not calling anyone a crank. Kunstler's views are certainly marginal at this point, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong, or that he doesn't at least have the kernel of a point. I do think that Kunstler exaggerates the immediate danger, and I don't think that massive investments in the rail system is a necessary or even prudent thing to do at this point.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:09 (twenty years ago)

So, what's the PRUDENT alternative to 45-minute highway commutes?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:10 (twenty years ago)

(Inferring that I, or JHK, want Democrats to be "crying 'the end is near'" -- that's calling me, or JHK, a crank, is it not? Or worse, inciting our representatives to unelectable crankdom?)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:14 (twenty years ago)

I dunno I just can't honestly see how anybody could be AGAINST a quality passenger rail system. Like, in any circumstance, but especially in the one we're in now, where gasoline is guaranteed to become more expensive every decade.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:15 (twenty years ago)

You can't just put money into a passenger rail system that no one wants and no one will use. Even following Kunstler's own logic, a rail system by itself won't solve anything, because the population patterns of suburbia don't make a rail system efficient! How will people get to the rail station? They'll have to drive, right? Then where will they park? To pour money into the rail system would be like me foreseeing that my arm is about to be chopped off so I start buying up band-aids by the bushel load.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 18:48 (twenty years ago)

I dunno I just can't honestly see how anybody could be AGAINST a quality passenger rail system

how about anyone who's for expanding the EITC?

I would love a quality passenger rail system that did nothing to hurt our budget. I would also like a daily government-provided wild strawberry waiting at my front door. We have a major divided highway system in our country (which could fit 20 Latvias inside it), an ingrained automobile culture, and cheap airfare. Rail would be nice, but we don't need it.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:01 (twenty years ago)

Kunstler has a kernel of a point. Oil will run out eventually. Before it runs out, it will get more and more expensive. The debate is not about that. The debate is about what if anything we should be doing now to anticipate that future. One side of the debate would say that over time the market system will solve the problem. In that, as oil becomes more expensive, gradually there will be more and more incentive for people to seek alternatives. As those alternatives become more economically favorable compared to oil, they will become more popular. Eventually a new equilibrium will be reached in which our consumption of oil is a fraction of what it is now. It's not advisable for government to try and solve the problem now because the market itself will do it more efficiently in due time.

Kunstler's response to that is, How do we know the change is going to be gradual? What if it's sudden and disruptive? Maybe the market won't have time to adjust. We are facing an impending catastrophe and we must act now to prepare for it.

However, I think the fact that oil prices have been increasing fairly rapidly yet still smoothly and steadily over the past couple of years supports the first view - that the change will be gradual enough for the market to react.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:17 (twenty years ago)

I am for doing a lot to expand light rail in major metros that lack it, like LA and probably a lot of others. But what need do we have for additional inter-city rail in such a large country?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:19 (twenty years ago)

My prob with Kunstler is that, while he did do a good service and got the idea of peak oil out to a lot of new folks, his RS piece(and other writings) had/has such a pessimistic, misanthropic vibe that it grates. It's not so much that shit's gunna happen(which plenty of folks agree), but it was with such glee he wronte about everything going to hell. Many others have written on the same topic, but with a far more hopeful outlook(examples of which we provided on that thread last year).

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:25 (twenty years ago)

A Keynesian scholar says U MAD

TOMBOT, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:33 (twenty years ago)

Stupid shortsighted half-measures like expanding NJTransit style heavy rail or El-style light systems (with their tremendobungous attached parking lots and garages) won't fix a goddamned thing, actually. And the market sure as hell won't step up and fix the problem, by the time the problem becomes big enough for a VC to want to fix it, they'll run out of money buying the gas to run the cement mixer.

America's fatal dependency on oil isn't even about commuters with dinky stupid office jobs in cities - it's the fact that everything you buy or sell travels some huge distance in the trailer of a truck with 18 retreaded tires, in questionable mechanical condition and running on diesel over roads paid for by everyone's taxes. That's what's going to kill us, when those guys start to squirm. They burn oil all day and all night while you and I only do it for an hour a day. And if they don't burn that oil, you and I don't eat. Pay up. "Why do we need trains? Cars work just fine!" For one person's groceries, maybe, not 250 million.

TOMBOT, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:43 (twenty years ago)

El-style light systems (with their tremendobungous attached parking lots and garages)

huh?

America's fatal dependency on oil isn't even about commuters with dinky stupid office jobs in cities - it's the fact that everything you buy or sell travels some huge distance in the trailer of a truck with 18 retreaded tires, in questionable mechanical condition and running on diesel over roads paid for by everyone's taxes.

i'd argue that it's more to do with almost every manufacturing process you can think of, way way before products get to market. the shortsighted thinking in all this, to me, is thinking of gasoline as solely a transportation fuel.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:47 (twenty years ago)

gabbneb, the airline industry is literally bankrupting itself with cheap airfares in the face of rising oil prices. I don't think you can count on cheap airfare over the long haul.

Of course the govt. investment required for high-speed rail would be sustantial. Of course it would impact "the budget." Everything does, especially huge projects whose benefits will be measured over decades rather than next quarter. I don't see how this is a criticism.

The DOT estimated in the mid-1990s that there is enough demand for a high speed rail system serving major metro groupings (journeys up to 500 miles or so) that the industry would be sustainable and could turn a profit. Yes, we have a "car culture" in the US, but every time a mass transit option has sprung up here, the public has flocked to it.

For a thorough breakdown of the rail options, you can look at this CBO report - http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4571&sequence=0&from=0

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:50 (twenty years ago)

The DOT estimated in the mid-1990s that there is enough demand for a high speed rail system serving major metro groupings (journeys up to 500 miles or so) that the industry would be sustainable and could turn a profit.

interesting. are there any subsequent studies? the world has sped up a lot since the mid-90s, and it's easier to communicate across distances. would demand have fallen?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:54 (twenty years ago)

Our car and airfare culture despite its massive superiority in terms of price and convenience still hasn't killed Amtrak in the northeast corridor. How bizarre.

TOMBOT, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 19:56 (twenty years ago)

because the NE corridor contains 4 of the top 7 metro areas within 500 miles. is there anything close elsewhere in the country?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:00 (twenty years ago)

Why does gabbneb never want to passenger rail?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:09 (twenty years ago)

too many proles, natch.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:16 (twenty years ago)

stence, on your and TOMBOT's point, the other thing about a high-speed rail network; you can use it for other things, too. In France they deliver the mail with the train and that shit is fast.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:17 (twenty years ago)

not sure that tombot and i were making the same point. i was saying that gasoline used in manufacturing processes for almost everything we consume >>> gasoline used for transportation. totally not against high-speed rail at all.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:21 (twenty years ago)

http://yvaugeois.free.fr/TGV/TGV-SE/TGV%20LA%20POSTE.JPG

185 mph

xpost - o i see, yes

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:23 (twenty years ago)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/images/ussectorcons.gif

This graph seems to show that transportation is the major use of oil in the US (>60%).

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:25 (twenty years ago)

However, the attached article points out that in most countries except for the US and Canada, the reverse is true: ie., more oil is used for non-transportation uses.

Another interesting graph:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/oil_market_basics/images/conspcap.gif

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:31 (twenty years ago)

that first graph doesn't make a lot of sense to me, clearly my neurons aren't firing today.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:32 (twenty years ago)

It was confusing to me too until I realized that there are two graphs super-imposed on it. The axis on the right is the share of oil used by transportation, and the axis on the left is the total oil consumption in barrels.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:44 (twenty years ago)

Why does gabbneb never want to passenger rail?

I do. I like trains better than planes or cars. I just don't think it's necessary right now. Thinking about prospects, though, it some potential lines in the Southeast started to seem logical, i.e. Hampton Roads-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte-Atlanta-Nashville-Memphis (or Louisville?), but is there a geographical reason Nashville isn't already rail-connected?

too many proles, natch

does that make you feel good?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:49 (twenty years ago)

the airline industry is literally bankrupting itself with cheap airfares in the face of rising oil prices. I don't think you can count on cheap airfare over the long haul.

Southwest Airlines to thread, pls. JetBlue to follow with AirTran in tow.

I dunno I just can't honestly see how anybody could be AGAINST a quality passenger rail system

there's not a viable market for one in the US. Light rail is glamorous but inflexible; busing in metro areas is a more cost effective solution. gabbneb OTM. Anyone want to pull out the financials for Amtrak so we can discuss our culture's adaptation of choo-choos?

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:51 (twenty years ago)

also FWIW they've been talking about getting train from Nashvegas to Atlanta through (you guessed it) Chattanooga for the past few years and it's not going to happen.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:55 (twenty years ago)

because?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 20:57 (twenty years ago)

I think the big risk with the government getting involved in building some big centrally-planned rail systems is that no one can be sure where the rails will be most needed when crunch time finally hits - or even when it will hit. It could be that the areas that we think need rails the most today will no longer be the significant areas by the time the peak oil crunch rolls around. We need to take into account Kunstler's argument that most large cities are not sustainable in peak oil conditions either and that most people will need to return to a small-village agrarian lifestyle, close to the land and self-sustainable agriculture. So under this kind of population arrangement, where will it make the most sense to build rails?

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:03 (twenty years ago)

It's kind of stupid to me to talk about railroads needing to be built to patch together existing urban areas when most of the cities in this country are there because of railroads being built first. The highways came after the cities were already built! Why can't we build high-speed on top of the historical ties that are basically the skeleton of our country as is? The rails are ALREADY THERE. They just happen to be OLD.

Anyone want to pull out the financials for Amtrak so we can discuss our culture's adaptation of choo-choos?

Good lord, don, why don't we also pull out the financials for the auto companies after we stop maintaining and building all the roads for them with our tax money? I am so fucking sick of that shit, it's goddamn nonsense if you take a split second to think about it

At any rate this argument is a waste of time since we have one group assuming catastrophic results if we continue to consume oil at current rates and another group assuming that the American Way Of Life can persist indefinitely or change to adapt to new conditions at such a gradual pace that nobody really notices.

TOMBOT, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:06 (twenty years ago)

The lifestyle of the future

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:10 (twenty years ago)

there's not a viable market for one in the US.

don, the DOT says otherwise. full report

Anyone want to pull out the financials for Amtrak so we can discuss our culture's adaptation of choo-choos?

OMB link, with analysis, already provided. and tom obviously on the money. you might also want to look at the positive effects on 1) airfares 2) wasted time at the airport 3) highway congestion 4) highway maintenance -- for starters -- if an effective high speed rail network were built to serve even just the NE corridor and the west coast.

o. nate - "big!" "centrally planned!" you're pulling out the big anti-commie guns, there, but if "no one can be sure where the rails will be most needed when crunch time finally hits," surely the issue is not one of private vs. public but the US's monumental lack of engineering and planning expertise in general?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:15 (twenty years ago)

because?

the car people are winning the battle for tax dollars (i.e. more roads, metropolitan-centric priorities, etc.)

why don't we also pull out the financials for the auto companies after we stop maintaining and building all the roads for them with our tax money?

I have no idea what you are intimating here.

Someone should comment on the light rail they are building in Minneapolis. I haven't checked lately, but does the LA rail system service LAX?

Tracer, that report is a decade old nor does it adequately address the cultural barriers to light rail success, let alone the optimistic, Mineta-fueled projections of fiscal viability.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:20 (twenty years ago)

I haven't checked lately, but does the LA rail system service LAX?

yes. it's just a skeleton for now. but it has the potential to be serious in 10 years.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:23 (twenty years ago)

Mineta-fueled

don weiner solves the energy crisis!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:30 (twenty years ago)

Don, "cultural barriers" to light rail? What are those? Check out this article for a rebuttal to whatever it is you're thinking about --> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-08-transit-cover_x.htm

I was waiting for Tom to answer you about the taxpayer funded highway system, but he hasn't, so I will -- what do you think our auto manufacturers' balance sheets would look like if they had to pay the cost of putting in new traffic lights and repaving miles of interstate?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:35 (twenty years ago)

What american cities have light-rail(or majorly electric bus) systems?

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:37 (twenty years ago)

Maybe instead of building light rail systems, the government should be making investments in the internet infrastructure and developing new technologies for video-conference and telecommuting. Working from home would use even less oil than taking a light rail to work.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:40 (twenty years ago)

Don, "cultural barriers" to light rail? What are those? Check out this article for a rebuttal to whatever it is you're thinking about -->

From your article: "So far, the building splurge hasn't boosted transit use much. Subway, bus and rail ridership has been flat since 2002. The Gold Line especially — 14,000 daily boardings — has been disappointing, but officials note that it runs only 13.7 miles and new links will pick up more riders. The subway took years to attract 111,000 weekday passengers."

I don't have any factual data at hand (in fact, my infant daughter is at hand and making it hard to type) but that paragraph alone suggests that there are cultural barriers to the embrace of rail.

what do you think our auto manufacturers' balance sheets would look like if they had to pay the cost of putting in new traffic lights and repaving miles of interstate?

what's the point of that question, exactly?

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:47 (twenty years ago)

Light rail projects are not federal projects anyway, o. nate, they're undertaken by municipalities. Why would D.C. fund Boston's light rail project? For normal rail, though, the US govt. would have a huge role to play, and it would certainly need to plan w/local authorities closely to maximise link-ups with light rail and other metro public transport.

kingfish, there's a bunch of info on light rail (and other stuff) here --> http://www.apta.com

xpost: the point is that effective daily transport -- whether by automobile or by rail -- needs massive government investment to keep it viable, and by asking us to look at amtrak's financials as a barometer of passenger rail's success, you're holding it to a totally different standard than the auto industry, whose products are guaranteed smooth sailing thanks to taxpayer investment to the tune of billions a year.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:51 (twenty years ago)

ah, here we go

Baltimore, MD
Boston, MA
Buffalo, NY
Calgary, AB
Cleveland, OH
Dallas, TX
Denver, CO
Edmonton, AB
Guadalajara, JA
Hudson-Bergen, NJ
Los Angeles, CA
Mexico City, DF
Monterrey
Newark, NJ
Ottawa, ON
Philadelphia, PA
Pittsburgh, PA
Portland, OR
Sacramento, CA
Salt Lake City, UT
San Francisco, CA
San Jose, CA
San Diego, CA
St. Louis, MO
Toronto, ON

with a bunch under construction and a bunch more proposed.

xpost thanks

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:52 (twenty years ago)

keep in mind, kingfish, that some of those are probably trams with like 8 stops.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:56 (twenty years ago)

What american cities have light-rail(or majorly electric bus) systems

Cleveland has one (four lines). I moved last year specifically to get closer to the rail line. I now drive my car once or twice a week. Fares don't cover the budget however and the citizens of the county raised the sales tax in order to cover the deficit.

laurence kansas (lawrence kansas), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:57 (twenty years ago)

dan, i guess you could be right. when you talk about "cultural barriers" it's squiffy subject to debate about. things change. but they don't change by themselves.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 21:59 (twenty years ago)

keep in mind, kingfish, that some of those are probably trams with like 8 stops.

this is true, but note that the list doesn't include something like the People Mover in detroit, which really IS something that small(tho it originally had far greater plans 30+ years ago)

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:01 (twenty years ago)

but hell, you gotta start somewhere

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:01 (twenty years ago)

yep

i meant to say "don"

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:02 (twenty years ago)

Isn't there a light-rail system in Miami? I remember seeing one downtown when I was there last year, but I don't know how extensive it is.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:04 (twenty years ago)

massive government investment to keep it viable, and by asking us to look at amtrak's financials as a barometer of passenger rail's success, you're holding it to a totally different standard than the auto industry, whose products are guaranteed smooth sailing thanks to taxpayer investment to the tune of billions a year.

I'm holding it to an entirely different standard because it's an entirely different industry and as the infrastructures and they are incomparable because of structural and cultural reasons. Like Rahmneb, I like riding trains and prefer them to a plane or a bus. Are you going to take my argument of the efficiency of buses head-on? (and also, what do you make of the CBO report that says, "outside the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak's cost structure differs from that of freight railroads in that it is not characterized by the large fixed costs of infrastructure (since Amtrak uses the freight railroads' tracks).?)

Again, I like trains. You do have to start somewhere, as far as encouraging the public to try to embrace mass transportation. But it kinda flies in the face of the suburbian lifestyle.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:21 (twenty years ago)

Are you going to take my argument of the efficiency of buses head-on?

No, cause I honestly don't know enough about it. But I imagine that without significant decongestion schemes, buses would be a misery in many cities.

A pro-light-rail site does take on "BRT" (bus rapid transit) head-on in a series of articles. Here's one which notes the public appears to prefer rail to buses - http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_brt002.htm

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:30 (twenty years ago)

But it kinda flies in the face of the suburbian lifestyle.

thing is, how many more decades is the suburban lifestyle gonna go on, as is? what happens down the line when gasoline stays over $4?

Altho, I think they'll do anything to keep the suburban thing going as long as possible, even when this means everybody switching over to hybrids and alt.fuels

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 8 February 2006 22:34 (twenty years ago)

The face of the areas directly adjacent (read: walking distance) to Washington DC's Metro (which is really kind of a light rail project with big underground sections in the city proper) is a good barometer, I think, for what's going to happen to the "suburban lifestyle." Even folks who have commutes to office parks outside the beltway are paying a premium to get access to more urban environments and giving up on the house+kids+dogs dream. That's a fantasy our parents had, I don't think there's very many people in my generation (of course this is skewed as you see fit by my living in the NE corridor) that actually plan on one day living in unattached housing and mowing the yard on Sunday.

TOMBOT, Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:16 (twenty years ago)

btw you guys know about this plan to sell the indiana toll road to some australian conglomerate? that's the future of transportation in america: no bold new ideas, but privatize, privatize, privatize.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 9 February 2006 15:33 (twenty years ago)

What Tombot said. And, of course, the NIMBYs and the "We got ours!" crowd are fighting that kind of development tooth and nail (esp. in NoVa) whie ignoring how highly subsidized their own lifestyles are.

laurence, do also you work in downtown Cleveland or near an RTA stop? I lived in Cleveland for many, many years, and aside from the Red Line to/from the airport I always found RTA terribly inconvenient, since so many stops weren't actually near anything, and instead dropped off at bus depots. And don't even get me started on how bad the bus schedules were in parts of the county. Good luck getting anywhere south of 480 on a Sunday!

phil d. (Phil D.), Thursday, 9 February 2006 17:36 (twenty years ago)

fantasy DC metro map:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/tracerhand/dcmetrofantasy.gif
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/mymap.htm

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 10 February 2006 01:54 (twenty years ago)

mmmm, purple

still pretty light on NE, though

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 February 2006 01:58 (twenty years ago)

Yeah please don't actually add any stations in the city itself!!! Just stretch that red line out to B'more and put the MARC and VRE out of business! Lord knows walking 5 miles uphill both ways in the freezing cold tonight just to SEE about adopting a CAT was totally no problem, I can't see any point to those NYC stops that are, what, 8 blocks apart? Ludicrous. Nobody needs that kind of infrastructure.

TOMBOT, Friday, 10 February 2006 02:12 (twenty years ago)

how about the Black Line...

Riverdale Park
Hyattsville
Mount Rainier
Arboretum (Bladensburg & R)
Northeast (14th & H)
Stanton Park (East side)
Union Station
Convention Center
Logan Circle (14th & P)
Adams Morgan (18th & U)
Mt Pleasant (16th & Irving)
Carter Barron
Walter Reed
Silver Spring
Walter Reed Annex

and the Gray Line...
Kennedy Center
GWU
Dupont
Adams Morgan
Kalorama
Glover/Dumbarton
Whitehaven
Chain Bridge
Spring Valley
Glen Echo
Cabin John
Great Falls
Potomac

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 10 February 2006 14:17 (twenty years ago)


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