Does anyone else watch Life On Mars?

I watch it. It is cheesey, but I enjoy it none the less. I know what you mean about Sam's mother. Was she perhaps in a soap when she was a bit younger?

I love this programme!

She was in Coronation Street a few years back.

My housemate worked on this, she said it was a nightmare. After hearing about the actors moaning about the long shoots and finishing late, it was funny to see Mr Simm getting interviewed and saying, “yeah it was great, I really enjoyed it”. The whole cast and crew had a week off because he was tired.

Well he did have a big car accident & get hurled back to 1973!! Jeez!

I have not seen it, but I like the Led Zep on the trailers.

i really like it. end of.

The music is great. Jethro Tull & the Sweet in one episode!

twice i've taped the late night repeat (the early one clashes with something else) and twice i've got the signed version of something to do with gardening instead. i am destined never to see this.

Lukozade in a wrapper!

It was the Victorian-style trains on the curtains in the child's bedroom that really did it for me last night. My brother used to have curtains like that, or wallpaper, or something. I got a genuine shiver of recognition. Fair play to the people who dress this set, they do a fantastic job.

I like it. It's clever.

Mrs Tyler - JOANNA FROGGATT
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/islandatwar/whoswho/images/angelique.jpg
1. "Loose Women"
- Episode #8.30 (2004) TV Episode .... Guest Panelist
2. "Island at War" (2004) (mini) TV Series .... Angelique Mahy
3. Danielle Cable: Eyewitness (2003) (TV) (as Joanne Froggatt) .... Danielle Cable
... aka Eyewitness: The Danielle Cable Story (UK)
4. "The Last Detective"
- Episode #1.1 (2003) TV Episode .... Josie Norris/Celia Norris
5. "Red Cap"
- Crush (2003) TV Episode (as Joanne Froggatt) .... Pte. Tracy Walters
6. "Nice Guy Eddie"
- Episode #1.3 (????) TV Episode .... Mandy
7. The Stretford Wives (2002) (TV) (as Joanne Froggatt) .... Dawn Richards
8. "Paradise Heights" (2002) TV Series .... Julia Eustace
... aka The Eustace Brothers (UK: new title)
9. "Casualty"
- Better Safe Than Sorry (2001) TV Episode .... Lucy Curry
10. "A Touch of Frost"
- Benefit of the Doubt: Part 2 (2001) TV Episode .... Anne
- Benefit of the Doubt: Part 1 (2001) TV Episode .... Anne
11. Lorna Doone (2000) (TV) .... Lizzie Ridd
12. "Other People's Children" (2000) TV Series .... Becky
13. "Nature Boy" (2000/I) (mini) TV Series .... Jenny Macalister
14. "Bad Girls" (1999) TV Series .... Rachel Hicks (Series 1) (1999)
15. "Dinnerladies"
- Catering (1999) TV Episode .... Sigourney
16. "Coronation Street" (1960) TV Series (as Joanne Froggatt) .... Zoe Tattersall (1997-1999)
... aka Corrie (UK: informal alternative title

Ah yes, Zoe. Thanks, Not Goodwin!

no problem, just have to stay late now to catch up on work.

I love 'life on mars' its brill only watched at 1st coz john simms coz i fink hes dead sexy, now i'm hooked on the programme....lol

LOL. ROFFLE.

Time Sweeney

Bah, I think I forgot to record Monday's ep.

I saw 10 minutes of this the other day; it looked like 'Heartbeat' for Loaded readers.

It was pretty good although many of the bits with Gene were the cheesiest yet. He's great though.

Haha, Jerry the Nipper is totally off the money (though I can see where that opinion could come from, if you caught the wrong ten minutes). I really really like this programme. I think Gene Hunt may be my favourite character in any TV show that isn't the West Wing. And I also really like that the romantic interest has a double chin - there just aren't enough non-stick-thin romantic interests on TV for my liking.

Amusingly (for me, anyway) I did remark to my housemates that I hoped I wasn't just falling for a more sophisticated version of Heartbeat. Perhaps the Nipper has something.

I didn't like Monday's episode very much, maybe because I thought it was going to be the last one in the series for some reason, and maybe because it was just a little dull. Although I do remember the seventies as a hostagey kind of decade.

"I'm 'avin' 'oops" has become a bit of a catchphrase round these parts.

I love it. I also quite fancy the WPC. She was in a nurse's unifrom in Monday's episode and I was pleased.

"That was a single malt. What are you, some kind of monster?"

Also, Wishing Well by Free. Get in.

My dad paid L on M a compliment last night - Gene Hunt is the best copper on TV since Frank Burnside!

Last night's had a lot of staring off into the distance going on and not a lot of laughs. I think Ray is great. He reminds me of the character Reece Shearsmith used to play in The League of Gentlemen, the one whose friend ran off with his wife, but the two men still worked together? I remember them saying once how much they all hated that character, and that as soon as Shearsmith put the costume on they would all start to avoid him. Ray is like that.

I still love how they don't make a big deal out of some of the best period details in it. Hairdressing in your living room. Classic.

what I wouldn't give for a good search engine

it's a godawful small affair.

I can't help but get the feeling somehow that Sam will not be LEAPING HOME next week...

take a look at the lawman beating up the wrong guy

apparently they are doing another series and a movie! it is The Sweeney!

they just started repeating them on the graveyard 'in vision' slot. last night was the first episode. which is good because i missed the first few due to it clashing with something else. do wish that bloke wouldn't stand in the corner waving his arms though.

oh no, look at those cavemen go

oh man

There is another thread on this, somewhere!

I have not seen Heartbeat. But I think this programme tremendous, on the whole.

I think we derailed a potentially mean-spirited thread on ILB by talking about it.

No - yet ANOTHER thread!

There is no other thread, Foxy. We are the real thread here. You belong here, with us.

hmph.

that last episode was SO GOOD ... until ten minutes from the end, at which point it lost the plot spectacularly.

spoiler warnings, if you taped it. although i'll try to keep it slightly abstract ;)

- so, sam discovers "the truth" about his dad. his dad can't stay with the family: he can either go to jail or run. "are you going to tell ruth and little sammy what i am?" he says. "you'll ruin their lives."

- TO WHICH, SURELY, SAM'S ANSWER SHOULD HAVE BEEN: "MINE'S RUINED ALREADY?"

- but no! sam allows history to repeat itself. to the letter. which means - dur! - obviously he's not going to get home.

- surely the obvious thing to do would be say, well, fuck it, i now know the truth about my dad and i'm going to have to live with that, no matter what. so i might as well turn him in because at least that changes something and who knows: it might wake me up?

- unless the whole point is that hunt is right, and sam subconsciously wants to stay there. hmm.

either way, i dunno. i just felt that in the last ten minutes it lost something; that even the dialogue, particularly in the confontation between sam and his dad, lost its edge. i'm rather disappointed, to be honest.

mind you, i seem to remember i gave up on "quantum leap" years ago for similar bah-that's-daft reasons. as if, eh, the whole thing wasn't daft in the first place.

are they really making a film? fuck that shit.

i like how Sam as a kid had a plummy posh voice.

yes. the posh little get.

further to my last e-mail of nebulous and ill-formed thoughts, can i just add:

- unless the whole point is that hunt is right, and sam subconsciously wants to stay there. hmm.

in which case: can we look forward to a second series in which sam tries to avoid waking up? now that could be fun ...

"are you my daddy?"
vs
"are you my mummy"

Well there went my theory of how the series would end.

In my version he had been abducted by aliens (hence Life On Mars). They had tried to reconstruct Sam's world so that when he woke up on the aliens home planet he would think he was still on Earth and they could observe him. Unfortunately due to the time it took for radio and TV pictures to reach the aliens they've reconstructed Sam's world 33 years ago. Oh and obviously their understanding of Earth is based on The Sweeney. Maybe they could only get good reception on one channel.

I got the impression the last ten minutes were added after the second series had been commissioned.

The western gag was funny.

So Sam has changed the future by saving Annie from being killed(?) by his sweet innocent-looking Dad and preventing his boy self from witnessing this?

When is he going to start betting on football results?! Or warning about IRA bombs etc.

You see, that's exactly the problem I have with the whole time travel thing. The temptation to use your knowledge of events for personal gain or to change history must be overwhelming.

Also if he's still stuck there/second series, all the brain activity and movement he was making in front of the doctors is presumably going to come to nothing.

I was sort of hoping he would then leap from 1973, into 2073.

And Gene would still be the Guv, but with his head in a Futurama-style glass jar, mounted on a huge robot-gorilla body.

But surely for him to remain in 1973, he must still be alive/in the coma in 2003?

They will have a crash in 1973, Sam wakes up fine, with a new partner in 2006 called Gene.

what if he had come out of the coma with his mum at his bedside, would she say "I fucking recognise you now - you're that copper that kept cropping up in 1973 - what the hell?" and then have some sort of breakdown?

SteveM is correct: why does this Manc kid talk like an Etonian? That ruined it!

"ahright ya cuhnt wares me fookin dad then eeehhh?"

it can't have been a watershed issue as we'd already seen them watchin 'Porno'

I agree it is the best thing.

I don't really like the new Dr Who, so, phew!, I don't have to comment on that stuff.

I don't think I see how the ending was a tag-on, though yes I guess it could have ended differently.

Seeing John Simm in this reminded me - weren't they going to make a second series of State Of Play? What happened to that?

actual end: sam takes the bullet, wakes up in the middle of portmeirion wearing a school prefect blazer and rushes back inside to see gene hunt sitting in a big spherical chair wearing a number 2 badge and wanting to know why he resigned.

how old is John Simm now anyway? he will always look 24 to me.

Wikipedia says he was born in 1970. Will somebody say something about State Of Play?

weirdly, i saw a clip of "love thy neighbour" on something the other day. first time i've actually seen it, rather than just read about it. it was fucking vile, wasn't it? i was quite taken aback. 1974, for fuck's sake! might as well have been the fucking stone age.

I've been watching this show on BBC America. I've only seen two episodes of it thus far and yet I'm HOOKED. Absolutely addicted. I love it. I love how they don't try to fabricate jokes around the time-based cultural differences, that everything is played out more subtly than it could be, and that in all the main cast of characters, every single one is sympathetic. I've heard dismaying rumors that David E. Kelley has picked up this program in hopes of making an American version of it, which, if it does happen, will be The Worst Thing Ever. I am hopeful that, if indeed those rumors are true, it doesn't last beyond the pilot. I think this program could very easily be ruined by a broadened Americanized adaptation, which would be heartbreaking as it's a really, really good one. A jewel of a drama. And I'd like to enjoy it without it being tainted by association.

Imagine how much more you'd love it if BBCA hadn't butchered it by cutting 13 minutes out of every episode to make room for the ads.

Get a multi-region player and buy the DVD.

Thanks for pointing that out, chris. I've been enjoying this but I didn't know about the butchery.

i have uncut .avis of the series if anyone wants them.

I just started watching this- why does DCI Hunt seem only to put up token resistance to the suggestions of DCI Tyler?

Is there an early episode where he wins or worms his way into his confidence?

Especially since Sam seems to have been demoted when he went into the past.

I guess I could read the thread a little more closely but there seem to be some spoilers up there. I think like most of you, I like Gene Hunt the best. Sam Tyler is a little bit of a wet blanket with his modern ways.

But the synthesis of Hunt's unsentimental old-school ways with Tyler's modern techniques gets the job done, doesn't it?

Yeah, you right, Mike. In any case, here is the other thread where this show was discussed.

As a team, how do you think they stack up to, say, Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus?

This is a shitload better than Rome.
Episode five and really enjoying it.

I loved Rome and it's a very similar team dynamic: Lusty, brawny man vs. cerebral, analytical type.

OK, we septics are caught up on the season finale so now I can read the whole thread and see the context for the hilarious joke about future-Gene.

Septics?!

I'm thinking septic tanks = yanks (see, cockerney rhyming slang, innit), but maybe I'm over-thinking, as I usually do with Ken L's crossword clues?

No, you're right as usual, ailsa.

The ending was a little bit weak- it was no Twelve Monkeys.

The BBC reports that the second series will be the last.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6033735.stm

must end with him waking up in 2074.

from a.n.other forum:

SFX magazine has an article on LoM series 2 and in it they mention the rumour of a spinoff series called Ashes to Ashes featuring some of the LoM cast in 1981.

BBC are getting quite "good" at creating spin-off-able programmes.

If anybody wants to know what happens throughout the whole second series, just ask. I know the clapper loader.

I do and I don't.

Please don't tell us anything on this thread, or I'll send the guv after ye.

Yeah, no spoilers please.

I thought that the Ashes to Ashes thing was a joke, but then I thought every mooted Doctor Who spin-off was going to be a joke too (and having seen Torchwood, I wasn't wrong, hahaha).

Excellent trailers for the new series, esp. the Camberwick Green pastiche.

Currently downloading episode 2x03 and can't bear the suspense... What happens?

dunno, and haven't seen it myself yet, so NO FUCKING BLEATING, YOU SLAGS.

nah, sorry. i just can't carry this gene hunt thing off.

there was some good LoM chat on the sandbox. anyone be arsed pasting it across? i can't :)

New series is starting in the uk? Wonder when we'll get it.
-- Ruud Haarvest (loud✧✧✧@pani✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 12th, 2007 9:44 PM.


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Words would be hard pressed to describe how excited I am about this.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 12th, 2007 9:49 PM.


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Please tell me this show does not involve sex with oops.
-- The Many Faces of Gordon Jump (nic✧✧✧.kess✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 12th, 2007 9:50 PM.


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Our house has just decided that in honour of the start of the new series, we are having spaghetti hoops, fish fingers, Smash, and a nice bottle of Black Tower for our dinner.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 12th, 2007 9:53 PM.


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Rats, I have been invited out for dinner tomorrow eve. I'm sure it will be torrentable. Roll on the BBC on demand service.
-- Ed (d✧✧✧@zerointegr✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 12th, 2007 9:53 PM.


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that os going a little far.
-- Ed (d✧✧✧@zerointegr✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 12th, 2007 9:53 PM.


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UKn0v4 announced some time ago they wouldn't be hosting any S2 t0rr3nts, because the DVD comes out on 2nd April.
-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 12th, 2007 10:38 PM.


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You can get it On Demand if you have ntl (which I'm guessing you don't). Hurrah!
I am as excited as I was about L O S T and Heroes (i.e. very).

-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 12th, 2007 10:40 PM.


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UKn0v4 announced some time ago they wouldn't be hosting any S2 t0rr3nts, because the DVD comes out on 2nd April.
This means I'll have to wait for whenever BBC America decides to start airing this season of "Life On Mars" and that when they finally do, I'll only ever get to see the edited-for-commercials version. :(

-- Phoenix (is still) Dancing (krushsis✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 7:06 AM.


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UKn0va is not the only t0rr3nt site
-- Ed (d✧✧✧@zerointegr✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 13th, 2007 7:08 AM.


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Agreed, I was just pointing out it wouldn't be on most people's site of choice for UK TV.
-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 7:57 AM.


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:) (Though I'm still at the beginner to_rr_ent level and thus only know a few sites, U_Kno_va being one of the few.)
-- Phoenix (is still) Dancing (krushsis✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 8:17 AM.


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Anyway, back to LOM discussion.
-- Phoenix (is still) Dancing (krushsis✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 8:18 AM.


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Is this tonight then? Or does it clash with Bolton vs Arsenal?
-- PJ Miller (pjmille✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 9:43 AM.


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Will John Sims get called a QUITTER a la Ecclestone for jumping ship and moaning about the long hours/spending time away from his family/typcast/blah blah ?
-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 9:48 AM.


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> Or does it clash with Bolton vs Arsenal?
it clashes with CSI and Never Did Me No Harm (on ch4 where 4 families take all the electronic toys away from their kids for a couple of weeks. which is kinda like life on mars in it's own way. or the Amish sketch on Fist Of Fun). luckily it doesn't clash with Dog Borstal.

they didn't have video recorders in 1973 either...

-- koogs (i✧✧@ko✧✧✧.cl✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 13th, 2007 10:05 AM.


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I wish I could see Dog Borstal. I like programmes with dogs in them. My current favourite programme is the Dog Whisperer.
Will John Sims get called a QUITTER a la Ecclestone for jumping ship and moaning about the long hours/spending time away from his family/typcast/blah blah ?

Does he do this? I never read interviews with actors anymore. None of them has anything interesting to say except Paul Bettany and Hugh Laurie, who both at least have the good grace to continue to be pleased that they don't actually have to work a proper job.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:03 AM.


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I don't think this series has that much mileage in it so if it was Simm saying he didn't want to do a third series I wouldn't be surprised if the creators were relieved in the 'oh good now we don't have to stretch things out more than we ought to'.
-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:09 AM.


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yes, i fear that any more than two series would be wrong. did anyone see the wee 20-minute "making of life on mars" thing that was on the other week? andrew collins in the pub with the writing team? they claimed they knew exactly how and when it was all going to end, etc. i'm not convinced.
i'm looking forward to this but our TV reviewer says it's a bit shit; a lot of the spark has gone.

-- grimly fiendish (simonm✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:22 AM.


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It's kind of a shame they even pushed it to two series, in my opinion. It could have been one of the greats if they'd just left it alone and had him go back at the very end of series one.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:28 AM.


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Ashes To Ashes, people.
-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:57 AM.


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i still refuse to accept that that is real
as discussed everywhere on the internet and in pubs, will they do an early 90s spin-off called 'Miracle Goodnight'?

-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 12:29 PM.


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First one was a little meh. Second one was much better. Man though, John Simm ate all the pies while they were away.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:01 PM.


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"Haven't you ever heard of softly softly?"
Yes, but I prefer Z Cars"
-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:06 PM.


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Oh, good, I'm glad it wasn't just me who watched two of them! I'll be out next Tuesday though, so I had to. Ridiculous, obviously, but yeah, I love this.
Not too sure about all new touchy feely hugglez Gene Hunt though.

(massive points off for Sam's invention of the stinger - bit reminiscent of Gary "Goodnight Sweetheart" Sparrow claiming to have written the entire Beatles back catalogue during WWII)


-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 13th, 2007 11:12 PM.


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The first ep was quite good, on a par with the first series which I quite liked rather than loved.
bit reminiscent of Gary "Goodnight Sweetheart" Sparrow claiming to have written the entire Beatles back catalogue during WWII

That was the only good joke I ever saw in Goodnight Sweetheart!

-- Chap (j✧✧.goo✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:24 PM.


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I prefer to see it as being reminiscent of Marty McFly inventing rock'n'roll.
I had to watch both as next week I'll be seeing Pan's Labyrinth at the picture house (which is like something outta 1973 itself).

-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:26 PM.


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I had to watch both because, you know, there they were.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:32 PM.


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You'll regret that at 9 o'clock next Tuesday, you know. We weren't going to, then I remembered I'll be at Celtic Park next Tuesday, so, y'now, I *had* to.
-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 13th, 2007 11:36 PM.


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Perhaps I shall just watch it again. I'm *that* mad.
Okay, okay, I'm not. You're right. Dammit.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:43 PM.


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We need a BBC4 spoiler policy, or my name isn't Hyde 2612.
-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:47 PM.


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But it isn't, your name is CRAPPY SECURITY GUARD ON L O S T, despite your screen name protestations to the contrary.
Erm, are we all BBC4ing then? I can't next week, so I'll be behind and IT'S MY THREAD GODAMMIT SO DON'T SPOIL IT FOR ME *LALALALALA*

Ach, I don't know. I just meant no spoilers from whoever was tootling about on the Doctor Who thread going "haha, I know what happens in the last episode".

-- ailsa_xx (ai✧✧✧.wat✧✧✧@geeem✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:52 PM.


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If anyone comes over here and tells us what happens in the last episode, they're getting a boot in the Gene Hunt.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:53 PM.


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HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE LAST EPISODE OF THE DOCTOR WHO SERIES (you know, the one with John Simm in it SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH IT'S A SEKRIT).
-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007 11:55 PM.


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Oh, OK. Still, what accentmonkey said.

-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 14th, 2007 12:04 AM.


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Also, I am all stupid mad excited about NEW WAYS of communication between 1973 and 2006/7. The future is phoning him! No scary test card girl (yet)! Both eps had crossovers with people who knew future-Sam! Cor!
-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 14th, 2007 12:17 AM.


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I think I preferred stronger sci-fi kick of episode 1 to the more straightforward policer of ep.2.
Saying that I liked the way the black charecter was handled, with him having to use Charlie Williams-type humour to diffuse the racialist tension in the office etc, as well as the more inexplicable moments like those two twins on the bicycle. And the Softly Softly gag.
I could be imagining it but this series feels more authentically '70s' than the last. What I mean, mainly, is: there seems to be a lot more smoking/rooms thick with ciggie smoke.

-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 12:22 AM.


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My housemate, the one who has never heard of Geoffrey Chaucer, wondered if the twins on the bicycle were the Kray twins.
I am surprised some people can even follow Life on Mars.

And, is there some kind of BBC law that Marc Warren has to make an appearance in every single drama series? Not that I don't like him, but I don't have to look at him all the time.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 8:13 AM.


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See, this is the first time I've seen Marc Warren in one of these things and not spent the entire time getting annoyed at his Marc Warren-ness. We went "oh look it's Marc Warren" then sort of forgot he was Marc Warren.
(there were hints of sci-fi elements in ep 2, with Glen thinking he knew Sam Tyler's name, but not where from - he knew he'd come from "Hyde" though...I'm pretty sure "Hyde" is going to be something other than an area of Manchester)

-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 14th, 2007 8:35 AM.


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I find the Hyde references slightly off-putting because they remind me of Harold Shipman.
I assume they're meant to be a Robert Louis Stevenson reference though. Hyde = the monster lurking in Sam's subconscious.


-- Forest Pines (i✧✧@symbolicfor✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 8:38 AM.


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Ooh, good one! See also (sort of) Gene reference to Sam's old mentor being Frankenstein because he'd created a monster...
-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 14th, 2007 8:39 AM.


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What a load of rubbish.
-- PJ Miller (pjmille✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 8:46 AM.


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The programme, or our theories?

-- Forest Pines (i✧✧@symbolicfor✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 8:47 AM.


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I enjoyed these two a great deal more than I was expecting! More double one-handed punches in each bastard episode please you bastards.
-- Bastard Sarah (starrysdarkmateri✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 9:32 AM.


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The programme, sorry. I'm sure the theories are sound.
-- PJ Miller (pjmille✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 9:52 AM.


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Mind you, I only watched about ten minutes.
-- PJ Miller (pjmille✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 9:52 AM.


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I enjoyed these two a great deal more than I was expecting! More double one-handed punches in each bastard episode please you bastards.
Yeah, who doesn't love "you are surrounded by armed BASTARDS!"

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 10:02 AM.


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s02e01 was the first i've seen. i'm not saying rubbish, but it didn't compel me.
if they do this '80s one, i have a pitch: why not the yorkshire moors in the '60s?

-- temporary enrique (miltonpin✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 10:03 AM.


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I haven't watched ep 2 yet, so not too many spoilers please!
("you are surrounded by armed BASTARDS!" was on the trailer, though)


-- Forest Pines (i✧✧@symbolicfor✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 10:11 AM.


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I'm surprised it's not on the police recruiting poster, to be honest.
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 10:13 AM.


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I picked up on the [Mr] Hyde reference, but I wasn't sure what the twins were about; I wondered briefly if it might be some oblique Alice in Wonderland ref, but I reckoned that it was mostly just to signal that reality was askew.
I didn't realise LoM was littered with sly literary/cultural references (aside from The Sweeney and the obvious), and that I should be looking out for them, rewarding myself as I ticked them off. Blimey.
-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 10:18 AM.


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i wish i'd watched the second ep as well. maybe tonight; got it taped. (or whatever the digital equivalent of taping is. didn't alba agonise over this for ages?)
the first one was a lot better than i expected, anyway: deftly handled time-slip spookiness, people being thrown off roofs and a nice little cliffhanger at the end. couldn't ask for much more. i'm becoming obsessed with the architecture and design of the police station: it's so terrifyingly, gloriously brutalist. does anyone know any more about it? i'm assuming they created a set, but it must have been based on something; i'd love to know what.

good to see they'd got proper seventies allegros this time too, not the eighties models they had last time :)

philip glenister popped up again on BBC4 narrating "timeslip", about the three-day week. he is obviously now the authentic voice of the seventies.

-- grimly fiendish (simonm✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 11:02 AM.


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the police station is actually stopford house council offices in stockport.
and parts of ancoats where i used to play.

(wikipedia has a list)

-- koogs (i✧✧@ko✧✧✧.cl✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 14th, 2007 11:29 AM.


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i'm becoming obsessed with the architecture and design of the police station
You think you're bad. I spent most of the second episode trying to work out if they'd put new seatbelts in the car, because the seatbelt didn't have that lovely slight slackness around the top that ye olde seatbelts used to have.

Plus there was one lamp that Marc Warren had in his office that I really wanted.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 11:32 AM.


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how did they build the roof at such an angle to the walls (or vice versa if you like)
-- BounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounce (bou✧✧✧@bou✧✧✧.bou✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 11:34 AM.


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?
-- BounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounce (bou✧✧✧@bou✧✧✧.bou✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 11:34 AM.


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Some observations:
The events of the first episode last night introduced some interesting (YMMV) issues wrt plot and continuity. What it appears to establish is that the events of 1973 can alter the events in the present day, but that any 'end state' will remain. From yesterday, for example, Marc Warren's character is originally being investigated by Tyler and has raped and killed his wife. He then puts Sam in hospital (possibly) and is torturing him in hospital. After being put away in the mental home in 1973 he still tortures Sam in the present but this is because he has escaped from the mental home. But it does also mean he can't have arranged the 'accident' that put Sam in hospital because he wasn't there to do so and his vendetta was of a different nature anyway. But the 'accident' ('end state' 1) still happens so Sam is in the hospital, and the torture ('end state' 2) still happens, but with different motivation.

This, however, introduces problems. There is now no sense of relief, or resolution, to S1E1. In fact, it makes the whole issue far more complex. We now know that only the 'end states' of there being a serial killer and Sam's girlfriend going missing are retained. Sam's actions in ensuring the killer is kept in mental hospital and not released to go on the killing spree actually mean that in the present day the case has completely changed - it must now be some other event that has no relation to the events in 1973 - and so Sam has achieved nothing other than corrupt his morals. A similar issue exists with the second episode last night, in that all we can say for sure is that the 'end state' position of his boss dying is all that is retained. It may well be that he carried on the Charlie Williams act for the rest of his career after perceiving Sam's "advice" to be racist bullying and was promoted through some anti-discrimination drive, but the important bit is that we don't and never can know, and neither does Sam. So again, the events of the episode achieve nothing.

Completely separately, Hyde is entirely possibly from Stevenson as pointed out above. The fact Gene Hunt seems to be exactly the opposite of Sam at the outset, and everything he despises in a policeman, but by the current stage they seem to realise they need to work symbiotically, and are stronger together than apart and can learn from each other, seems thematically strongly linked. Let's not also forget the etymology of Hyde is from 'hide'.

On a different topic, these rumours about Ashes To Ashes confuse things massively. If true, this means this is a real 1973 (because a spin off happening in the main character's head when the main character no longer is there is faintly ridiculous) and Sam has somehow actually moved there in time - causing issues around things like the TV talking to him , unless one of my wild arsed theories is right. And without further ado...

Wild arsed speculation and theorising:

1) The guy on the other end of Hyde 2612 is a doctor in the present day

This is possible, I suppose, but I don't know about the likes of deep hypnosis on people in PVS to comment to fully. Is it credible that it could be concluded that you could recover from PVS but there are pychological barriers that need removing first - "the rules"?

2) The guy on the other end of Hyde 2612 is Sam's dad in the present day

We don't know anything about what happened after the end of S1, or even where Sam's dad is in the present day. The actual physical redemption of his dad (as opposed to the psychological one in S1) may be the trigger to his return, but Sam may have to change the interim before the 'end state' in that scenario to allow this redemption to happen. This would certainly provide a tidy thematic link between the two series (or the finales of them) and would satisfy a relatively standard TV trope.

3) The guy on the other end of Hyde 2612 is Sam, post PVS

This is, I think, the most likely. Sam has recovered to a degree, but 'remembers' what he went through in order to 'escape' out of 1973 and wants to help Sam get there, but certain things have to happen to allow for it - "the rules". A possible pointer to this is the issues around Sam's eyesight and migraines we have seen in this series - Hyde 2612 is, with a small bit of geographic jiggery-pokery, the telephone number of Stockoprt Hospital for the Blind (according to google). Sam loses his sight while in PVS and tries to avoid making the same mistakes in 1973 that he thinks leads to it?

4) Sam is really in 1973, and is actually mad

This would be my preferred ending, but it's possibly too downbeat. The whole thing about the future was a dream, or a psychotic episode (possibly an epileptic fit of sorts?) which he recovered from when he is discovered in S1E1 - or perhaps this was the "incident in Hyde" that was talked about last night - and all the other items (test card girl, radio broadcasts, telephone calls) are just symptoms of his madness.

Thoughts?


-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 1:47 PM.


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He can't really be in 1973. For one thing, his haircut is all wrong. I know that sounds like a simple thing, but when every other detail of the show's production has so much care in it, there is no way the lead character would have a 2006 haircut unless it was deliberately intended to mark him out as different.
Also, I do not think you can recover from PVS. I think that technically he must be in a coma, and people do think that you can communicate with people in comas. PVS (I think, but I am not a doctor) means you have no brain activity, which he must do, or nobody would be trying to communicate with him.

But it does also mean he can't have arranged the 'accident' that put Sam in hospital because he wasn't there to do so and his vendetta was of a different nature anyway. But the 'accident' ('end state' 1) still happens so Sam is in the hospital, and the torture ('end state' 2) still happens, but with different motivation.

I sincerely hope the people writing this programme are putting as much thought into these questions as you are.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 1:55 PM.


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What it appears to establish is that the events of 1973 can alter the events in the present day, but that any 'end state' will remain.
I don't understand, this just sounds like "you can change some stuff except sometimes you can't". Is there anything special about the "end state" facts?

Also, I do not think you can recover from PVS. I think that technically he must be in a coma, and people do think that you can communicate with people in comas. PVS (I think, but I am not a doctor) means you have no brain activity, which he must do, or nobody would be trying to communicate with him.

Oh, no, you can! My favourite news story of the last few years

-- Andrew Farrell (afarr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 2:08 PM.


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His haircut is all wrong, yes, but maybe it's supposed to be a MENKO HAIRCUT. I suspect he is not in 1973, but it is nice to speculate.
I must admit, my main reason for assuming he is PVS and not in a coma is the issue over his mother being asked to turn off his life support. I was under the impression that you couldn't do this legally in Britain without PVS being declared and a year having elapsed (NHS Direct website seems to support this, and also that it can be recovered from). It says:

Vegetative state is caused as a result of severe injury to the part of the brain that controls thought and personality. A person in a vegetative state may seem to be awake and reflex responses may remain, but it is widely accepted that they have no awareness of their surroundings and that they are incapable of feeling mental distress or physical pain. It is common after someone has been in a coma.
There is no treatment that can stop the effects of a vegetative state, but some people do make a recovery.
However, many people will only gain some awareness, or are permanently brain damaged if they do recover.
A person who has been in a vegetative state for more than one month is said to be in a persistent vegetative state. This is then considered permanent after a year. Recovery becomes less likely the longer the person is in a vegetative state.
The BMA recommends that there should be a high standard of nursing care, good nutrition and stimulation should be available to people in a vegetative state.
After about a year, doctors may decide that the person's condition is irreversible, and that keeping them alive is not in their best interests and consideration may be given to withdrawal of treatment. In England, any decision to stop a person's care will need to be made by the courts.

This seems to imply to me Sam has left his coma, but is unresponsive to anything at the hospital. That said, I can't find anything on when you can turn off support in a coma so it's conceivable the same rules could apply (although it's be a wonder of writing to show him recover from a coma he's been in for over a year without any vegetative state effects).

I suspect it is just me putting this much thought in. ;__;


-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 2:18 PM.


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If he's really in 73 he has to have travelled back from the present, or have Nostradamus-like predictive powers - he can't just be mad (unless everything that has happened in the real world since then has just been a product of his dementia, which seems unlikely).
-- Chap (j✧✧.goo✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 2:18 PM.


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But one expert in neurological rehabilitation said it was possible the patients had a different condition.
Not PVS! I only say this because I abstracted an article recently in which a neurologist was basically complaining about not being allowed to do things like take blood donations or organs from people in PVS, given that there was NO WAY they were ever going to come out of it and people should just stop kidding themselves. Although it could be just semantics.

I am paraphrasing, of course.

I don't understand, this just sounds like "you can change some stuff except sometimes you can't". Is there anything special about the "end state" facts?

Well, you know how in a different programme, or in Back to the Future, or some other time travel meet up scenario, when Sam had changed the past, the bloke would most likely just melt away in the future. But he didn't. He was still there, torturing Sam, but he got there by a different route than the original one. Meaning he can't change the end state, just the means. I found that pretty bleak, actually.


-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 2:19 PM.


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with blokey coming back as a mental patient to kill sam -- was this a 'totally random' attack of a madman, or did sam in fact set in train this course of events, making him an enemy, and the attack one of revenge?
-- temporary enrique (miltonpin✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 2:21 PM.


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This seems to imply to me Sam has left his coma, but is unresponsive to anything at the hospital.
I don't know. Again, it's possible the writers are not thinking as hard about his condition as you/we are. However, it occurs to me that he must be showing some signs of reaction or brain activity in order (as you say) for them to keep his life support switched on, and for them to keep trying to get through to him.

But who is trying to get through to him? If it turns out to be Whoopi Goldberg, I shall be vexed.

with blokey coming back as a mental patient to kill sam -- was this a 'totally random' attack of a madman, or did sam in fact set in train this course of events, making him an enemy, and the attack one of revenge?

Right! That's what I found bleak about this. Sam caused the attack by changing the time line.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 14th, 2007 2:23 PM.


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Okay, here's the original Guardian story that I was thinking about. I mean, technically anyone you can wake up isn't PVS because if you can wake them up it isn't persistent, but your doctor is being quite unscientific by saying "we can't wake people with PVS" when it's such a sweeping term in the first place.
Meaning he can't change the end state, just the means. I found that pretty bleak, actually.

Yeah, but he has changed the end state to an extent - there are psych ward records somewhere that weren't there before, for example.

-- Andrew Farrell (afarr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 11:26 AM.


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xpost
time travel, eh? fraught with difficulties.

fwiw, i think the best way to deal with these issues is just to accept them. i mean, let's not forget: time travel doesn't actually exist. therefore the parameters by which it "works" and by which events are changed are defined solely by the writers. so let's just roll with it, shall we?

episode two was, by any standards, absolutely fucking brilliant. genuinely powerful drama. philip glenister was quite, quite staggering. indeed, i'm considering running my department at work (roughly the same size as the detective team) in a gene hunt stylee :)

-- grimly fiendish (simonm✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 11:29 AM.

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If he's really in 73 he has to have travelled back from the present, or have Nostradamus-like predictive powers
Haven't watched Series 1 since it was on, but he definitely told his mother to put money on Red Rum for the National and I'm pretty convinced he told someone about Hillsborough or something as well? So I think we can probably discount the he's not actually from the future theory - some things he's said go beyond just imagining what the enlightened future is like.

(OK, we thought he was going to get Marc Warren sent down for life but with parole he'd be out and gunning for him by 2006/7 anyway. I like the "change the means but the outcome remains" thing)

You think you're bad. I spent most of the second episode trying to work out if they'd put new seatbelts in the car

Ha, one of the other things that marks Sam out as not of the 70s is that he puts his seatbelt on at all. I remember when I was of primary school age in the late 70s/early 80s and finding it really weird if anyone asked me to wear a seatbelt in their car.

-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 15th, 2007 7:14 PM.


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indeed, i'm considering running my department at work (roughly the same size as the detective team) in a gene hunt stylee :)
Please to blog every day of such an experiment, also in a gene hunt stylee.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 7:46 PM.


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I sort of imagine that grimly does this already.
-- ailsa_xx (ai✧✧✧.wat✧✧✧@geeem✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 7:55 PM.


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I imagine him more as:



-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 7:57 PM.


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This is the picture I *should* have used:



-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 15th, 2007 8:03 PM.

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Ha! Where's that from?
We came up with an idea for a new 1970s-style claymation children's show. Battlestar Galactington.

-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 8:07 PM.


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ailsa and accentmonkey, you are both v amusing. and i'm kinda flattered, on both counts.
Please to blog every day of such an experiment, also in a gene hunt stylee.

dA yy A zz Ay ^H^H dd

[sound of computer being smashed]

RIGHT. PUB!

-- grimly fiendish (simonm✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 15th, 2007 8:11 PM.


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accentmonkey, it's from the wallpapers section of the BBC Life on Mars website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/lifeonmars/backstage/downloads.shtml). I'm really wanting to get Gene Hunt on my phone now.
-- ailsa_xx (ailsa), February 15th, 2007 8:18 PM.


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Real Fans will already know that these two have been doing the bedtime story on CBeebies, yesterday and the day before, Simm first, then the other one.
This seems to be part of some new BBC subliminal marketing campaign, because "Matt" out of Five Days was on when that serial was running.

None of these professional thespians, however, was as good as Lawro at telling the story.

-- PJ Miller (pjmille✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 8:02 AM.


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who is the bloke on the left?
-- koogs (i✧✧@ko✧✧✧.cl✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 16th, 2007 8:33 AM.

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Are you at work, Koogs?
-- PJ Miller (pjmille✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 8:35 AM.


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Someone from an upcoming episode. Helpful, eh?
-- ailsa_xx (ai✧✧✧.wat✧✧✧@geeem✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 8:36 AM.


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why no annie cartwright wallpapers / screensavers / gubbins?
(yes, pjm, in especially early because i have things to do and nobody here knows how to write a build script that actually builds. have spent two days just trying to get application to compile.)

-- koogs (i✧✧@ko✧✧✧.cl✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 16th, 2007 8:52 AM.

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Cos she's a burd, innit?
-- ailsa_xx (ai✧✧✧.wat✧✧✧@geeem✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 8:56 AM.

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(clock screensaver is nice idea badly executed. mute button mutes your entire system even the streams you are trying to listen to. clock should've been scaled to fit screen as well, rather than just plonking itself in the middle.)
-- koogs (i✧✧@ko✧✧✧.cl✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 16th, 2007 8:57 AM.


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guy on the phone is a dibble from heartbeat who is talking from 4 years in the past!!!
-- BounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounce (bou✧✧✧@bou✧✧✧.bou✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 10:04 AM.


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I like the clock screensaver a lot, except that, like everyone else, my screen just goes blank nowadays instead of needing to be saved. It's the icecaps, innit?
-- accentmonkey (tr✧✧✧@perfectlycromul✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 10:11 AM.


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The bloke on the left in the picture is the nonce Gene Hunt is seen bashing at the end of the Camberwick Green trailer for this series.
-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 4:50 PM.


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One more bit of wild arsed theorising, and maybe the one that has been staring us in the face since the very beginning.
Gene Hunt

What if this is literal, that the events from the last episode in Series 1 have convinced Sam that his dad (who we now know is a wrong 'un0 might not be his dad after all. What if his dad was actually a policeman, giving Sam his love of the the law, and the good DCI is a clue on the 'hunt' for his 'genes'. The voice of Hyde 2621 could be his real dad, who his mum has brought out of the woodwork since the coma, or possibly the phone calls are a submerged memory of conversations he had with him when he was a kid - that would fit in with "I have to phone you, we have to stick to the rules" - in much the same way S1 had a submerged memory surface about the last time he saw the man he thinks is his dad. There's also the wordplay link between hunt and hide.

I'm liking this more and more. There's also potential for Ashes To Ashes through this solution, following the 'real' Gene Hunt and not the one in Sam's mind.

-- I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 16th, 2007 5:10 PM.


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i couldn't be arsed to get through this, in the end. it's not terrible but it doesn't really grab you by the nads. john harris was kind of right that hunt would be a lot more racist than he is in the show. is john simm a cop in the present too? unusually PC for a police, if so.
-- temporary enrique (miltonpin✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:17 PM.

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that pesky harris, always demanding more racism on tv...
why is there not an episode on next week? i couldn't be bothered to watch the next one but quite enjoyed this'n.

-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:23 PM.


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1: not necessarily, and 2: not necessarily.
-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:24 PM.


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it's man u vs... reading, steve.
-- temporary enrique (miltonpin✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:25 PM.


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^xp
-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:26 PM.


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i think the voice of Hyde 2621 is a government dude. how mean of him to not help Sam or give him more info tho. perhaps he was eating his dinner at the time.
the Camberwick Green trailer for this series.
i enjoyed this enough to think that it might be nice if someone made an...'adult-orientated' animated series in this style, but with real heart, clever humour etc. because the narration+characters unable to make sound aspect shouldn't be the preserve of kids, perhaps.

-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:32 PM.


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did they really not have decent files in 1973 so someone could check up on Tyler's history in Hyde only to find...nothing?
-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:34 PM.


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I saw this last night for the first time (t'was on when I had something to do involving leaving t'house)
It's very good but a bit pleased with itself really. (story involved irish/explosives/"The irish'd never blow up a pub, name me a paddy that doesn't like a drink" ahaha we see what you did there! Also, Chunky kitkat were not available in the seventies and JSims character would know that!

-- M Grout (m✧✧✧.gr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:37 PM.

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I have missed both episodes of this new series, because I KEEP FORGETTING TO WATCH TV! I am fule. I don't suppose it's repeated on any other BBC channel on another night, is it??
-- C J (CJ_The_Unr✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:50 PM.

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It was on BBC4 last night.
I guess it will be, again.

-- M Grout (m✧✧✧.gr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 12:51 PM.


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The BBC2 episode was excellent, very well plotted.
-- Chap (j✧✧.goo✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 1:18 PM.


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BBC1, rather.
-- Chap (j✧✧.goo✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 1:20 PM.


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Wouldn't it be a fab job to be a researcher for this?! They came round to work to do the research for the Post Office, I think they might have borrowed a poster too, cos I did spy one.
-- vicky (vic✧✧✧@geem✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 1:56 PM.


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Also, Chunky kitkat were not available in the seventies and JSims character would know that!
He does know that but every now and again he forgets himself 'whoops, oh yeah it's 1973 innit, d'oh'.
Didn't like episode 3 as much as the first two.
"Frank Miller"!

-- DavidM (goodw✧✧✧@btinter✧✧✧.SPAM-B-✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:05 PM.

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I know this is stretching the metaphor too far but last night I got to thinking "hold on if Sam's other life is "Hyde" then this one is Jeckyll: 1973Sam is the one with the sense of humanity, 200xSam is the debauched monster".
Like I say, metaphor past elastic limit.

Frank Miller?

Also in what sort of crazed world is a chunky kitkat more of a treat than a regular one? I don't pay my license fee to watch such foolishness etc etc.

-- Tim (hopkins✧✧✧@ya✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:08 PM.


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Sometimes he seems to make "future" references deliberately - such as in ep 2 where he said he liked reading Dan Brown novels.

-- Forest Pines (i✧✧@symbolicfor✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:08 PM.


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in what sort of crazed world is a chunky kitkat more of a treat than a regular one
In every sort of crazed world! You loon.

-- It's Teatime in Buttercup Land (boyincordu✧✧✧@ya✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:22 PM.


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there's something about chunky kitkats i don't like tho. it could be their chunkiness, but i do love Yorkies.
question from previous series: why wouldn't Tyler bet on famous sports results?

i was gonna say the woman who plays Annie seems to be becoming worse at acting each week :( she's nearly as bad as the pub landlord.

-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:31 PM.


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xpost because he hasn't actually travelled back in time, therefore Arsenal lose the cup match etc...
-- M Grout (m✧✧✧.gr✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:33 PM.


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I am forced to the conclusion that it's in fancy media circles that chunky kitkats are considered preferable to normal ones, and this explains why I have never before encountered such madness.
Steve, he went on about Red Rum didn't he?

-- Tim (hopkins✧✧✧@ya✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:34 PM.


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does a chunky kitkat actually give you more chocolate or even biscuit than a standard four-finger kitkat? or are they just filled with lots of air, like tennis balls?
Red Rum? Red Rub more like

-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:35 PM.


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Winning at 9-1, he was far from rub!
-- C J (CJ_The_Unr✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:38 PM.


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cap'n save-a-horse
-- resumo impetus (n✧@n✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:44 PM.


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i guess one good reason to know old sports results is if you get sent back in time. i would suck at it.
but maybe i would get cool points by listening to can and stuff like that.

-- temporary enrique (miltonpin✧✧✧@hotm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 21st, 2007 2:57 PM.

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> We need a BBC4 spoiler policy, or my name isn't Hyde 2612.
> I am not a crappy security guard on L O S T (a✧✧✧.cow✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧), February 13th, 2007.
yes, yes we do.

-- koogs (i✧✧@ko✧✧✧.cl✧✧✧.c✧.u✧), February 21st, 2007 4:09 PM.

BUT NOT AS LAZY AS GRIMLY WHO COULDN'T BE BOTHERED DOING ANY OF THIS

nice one, guv.

RIGHT. PUB!

oh, hang on. it's 10.28am and i have a newspaper to do. fuck.

oh, hang on. it's 10.28am and i have a newspaper to do. fuck.

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE A JOURNO, WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?

Oh, I have just posted elesehwere how I was WRONG to call it a load of rubbish. So I will post it again here.

I bought the DVD of the first series, you know.

It is on.... CONTENDER!

Work that one out!

Yes, Frank Miller. The name of the character the bloke from Early Doors played. Presumably a nod by the writers to the hirsute comic book author of some note.
Just saying, like.

so: BBC4 is showing ep 2 tomorrow night. and a quick swatch at the official site says the the digital show is now a "catch-up".

which suggests ep 3 on terrestrial this week and ep 2 on digital; ep 4 on terrestrial next week and ep 3 on digital ... and it's all neatly in sync and i've had to wait two weeks for hot new LoM action.

bastards.

Yes, Frank Miller. The name of the character the bloke from Early Doors played. Presumably a nod by the writers to the hirsute comic book author of some note.

If I can nerdily butt in, Frank Miller actually has a shaved head. Alan Moore is the hairy one.

Ah, yes. Thank you. Though I was actually getting him mixed up with Dr from Dr and the Medics.

Not just Frank Miller, but Patrick O'Brien as well. Clearly someone was writing their characters while staring at the bookshelves.

Good detective-y story, I thought.

I was hoping to see the BBC4 ep so I would only miss two when I was away. I don't see the point of fannying about with the schedule like this.

Not just Frank Miller, but Patrick O'Brien as well. Clearly someone was writing their characters while staring at the bookshelves.

Perhaps they're from Sam Tyler's bookshelf.

I actually thought that, but then I thought that he didn't remark on the names, and he would have done. I see now what people mean about the chunky Kit Kat line being out of place, because he would have known that they didn't have chunky Kit Kats in 1973, but the line that really annoyed me was Gene Hunt at the beginning saying "what part of [whatever it was they were talking about] are you having trouble understanding?" That is a modern sentence construction that came over from the U.S. not that long ago, if I'm not mistaken.

Not that I want to spend my time picking holes in the dialogue, but it just stuck out as too modern a way of talking for a 1973 copper.

I liked last night's, but we both worked out who The Villain was right near the start. Which I suppose is kind of the point of cop shows, in a way.

Annoying little period niggle: obviously they had to make their own test-card photo so they could use their own Test-Card Girl actress; but the noughts and crosses board was wrong! The noughts and crosses were in the wrong place - the X should be exactly in the middle of the card, and (as I'm sure the rest of you noticed) its non-centred location stuck out like a sore thumb.

Another thing - who ever heard of a British copper called Gene Hunt?

yeah, i couldn't take Gene's 'talk to the hand' line. i kid. i kid.

OK, a general answer to the 1) what part of xxx don't you understand 2) betting on known sports results, get rich, 3) Noughts and Crosses test card....


A) He has not actually gone back in time!
2) History is (as it says in "1066 and all that") what you remember it is.

OK, so at the end he wakes up and is:
(a) in his old school blazer in Portmeirion being chased around by a weather balloon;
(b) in a cheery rural Yorkshire village in a never-ending '60s having his hands full dealing with scheming villains and lovable rogues;
(c) working in Sunshine Desserts and he didn't get where he is today etc.

I like option (a) there myself.

OK, he can't have *really* gone back in time because he does keep getting messages from doctors etc back in 2006/7. But on the *other* hand, if he didn't go back in time, how does that explain episode 2.01, where the attacks on him in the present changed from "attacks from villain he'd been chasing" to "attacks from escaped nutter" after he got the chap sectioned back in 1973?

(was it called "sectioning" in 1973, or does that terminology post-date the 1981 Mental Health Act?)

Besides, was the test card mistake obvious enough to be a Clue anyway? *I* thought it was glaring, but did *you* spot it?

(it's glaring if you know how you're supposed to use the test card - the noughts-and-crosses board is there so that you can centre your picture on the screen)

Oh right. It was so not-glaring to me that for a minute I thought you were making fun of my pointing out anachronisms. I didn't know that about the test card. I guess maybe it is a clue. So was the whole bit with his dad at the end of the first series the reason why his comatose brain has placed him in 1973, or is some even more traumatic thing going to happen at the end of this series that explains why his brain has put him in this era?

As my co-worker Wee Dave said this morning: "I'm glad they're stopping after this series, it's far too confusing already"

Or at least get in David Peace to write the script.

But on the *other* hand, if he didn't go back in time, how does that explain episode 2.01, where the attacks on him in the present changed from "attacks from villain he'd been chasing" to "attacks from escaped nutter" after he got the chap sectioned back in 1973?

This confused me for a while, until the telephone rang and a future version of me told me that the voices that sam is hearing in the present are being re-interpreted by what's left of his brain to fit in with the other adventures it is having. Or something.
Actually I think that a lot of this is not going to be explained at all; it's certainly going to be one hell of a long last programme if all the "t"s get crossed and lower-case "j"s get dotted. I'm looking forward to it, though.

Yes, that's what I think too. About the re-interpretation thing, not the last-episode-tying-everything-up thing.

A lot of this is covered in the italicised thread I recovered from the sandbox and posted ^^^^^^^^.

i still want to know how the large roof ceiling tiles are at such an angle to all the walls

Frank Miller's plan was ridiculous. Good fun, though. The test card bit was nice and spooky.

I'm enjoying series two more than the first so far, it seems more effortlessly compelling, or maybe I've just got used to the concept.

(b) in a cheery rural Yorkshire village in a never-ending '60s having his hands full dealing with scheming villains and lovable rogues;

brilliant!

(c) working in Sunshine Desserts and he didn't get where he is today etc.

better!

Or at least get in David Peace to write the script.

jesus, no, absolutely terrifying. still, two out of three ain't bad, as the absurd-rock world's very own gene hunt once put it.

< silly non-html ital > I saw 10 minutes of this the other day; it looked like 'Heartbeat' for Loaded readers.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper) on Wednesday, 15 February 2006 10:37 (1 year ago) < / silly non-html ital >

hey guys I got mod powers now and was going to see to the googleproofing above but holy moly I don't have that much time, that's a lot of addys. I could find and replace the @s but that might not be good enough? If it's not, someone can c/p the text above and edit out the addys, and then I'll just delete the old post, how does that sound?

(b) in a cheery rural Yorkshire village in a never-ending '60s having his hands full dealing with scheming villains and lovable rogues;

You know what I never understood about Heartbeat: how come if it was set in the late 60s, the local train service was still pulled by a steam engine? It should have been like the opening credits to Get Carter: blue and green diesel engines and freshly-installed signs in Helvetica (they started appearing in '64).

(my parents used to have a copy of the Herriot-style memoir that Heartbeat series one was adapted from. I'll have to see if I can find it)

Was 'Heartbeat' set in the *late* 60s? my guess was it ran from the early sixties into... well, the mid-70s probably.

I thought it was set in '69, but never having watched it I'm not entirely sure.

there were more episodes than 1969 had days!

guy on the phone is a dibble from heartbeat who is talking from 4 years in the past!!!
-- BounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounceBounce ([email protected]), February 16th, 2007 10:04 AM

that was me BTW.

yes, current heartbeat is 1969, i have been yelling at them to get on with the 70s. maybe they didn't want to collide with this

This sorely missed wiseacre seems to have had the same idea:

"if they do this '80s one, i have a pitch: why not the yorkshire moors in the '60s?

-- temporary enrique (email), February 14th, 2007 10:03 AM."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbeat_%28TV_series%29#Chronology

apparently it started in 1964 but has been in 1969 for a veeeeeerrrryyyy loooooonnnngggg time.

The writers have yet to come up with a satisfactory explanation for Derek Fowlds' remarkable ageing over the course of one "year."

essence of basil brush?

If they get to 1970, will he magically turn into Roy North?

See the Ford Cortina from the series is up for sale on ebay with the proceeds going to Comic Relief.

"Ford Cortina" was, apparently, Life On Mars's working title.

So, wait, have I got the year wrong or is their car blatantly from the wrong year? Man, that would annoy me if I knew anything about cars.

1974 would have been M- or (after august) N-plated so the roadworthy plate is basically temporally correct. the K-plate they use is too old for that model; then again, it's a 2000E with a GXL badge on the front, so it's all shot to fuck anyway.

you think i'm sad for knowing this? you shoulda met my old next-door neighbour, who had a mkIII granada GL which, over time, also began to boast several badly applied ghia badges and eventually - and spectacularly laughably - a TURBO decal which i think he bought for 99p.

Philip Glenister was on Top Gear last season and they picked over all the wrong details about the car.

fuck! i wish i'd seen that. wonder if it's on youtube? (can't be arsed looking, so obviously i'm not that bothered.)

*impatiently waits for the next episode*

*seen Harry Hill doing Life On Mars on TV Burp and that's all I need to know*

Funniest episode yet... Though the sodding Metro ruined the Tony and Cherie joke for me by printing it in its preview.

"Gene Hunt smashes doors down, he does not PICK girly locks!"

"WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN EATING? PEDIGREE CHUM?"

I was a bit distracted by there being so many ex-Coronation Street girls in last night's episode.

We couldn't stop laughing half the time.

Vol-au-vent?

"It's a puff pastry case with a meat filling".
"What, it's a pie, then?"

Brilliant.

you are all obtain much kool-aid

what does that even mean?

this progamme is boring. i used an american expression, 'kool-aid', and spooged it into a meme.

let the sunshine in

let the sunshine in... and devote time to boring, overlong, britishes nostalgia-fests.

i agree that it is overlong, and that it is british

what does that even mean?

When someone who should know better succumbs to marketing influences and actually begins to believe the propaganda being dished out by a vendor, they are said to have drunk the Kool-Aid

What exactly are the marketing influences in Life onMars, then? Are we being subtly persuaded to buy an old Ford Cortina and a whopping great LED wristwatch?

I did think last night's story was kinda boring in the end - I didn't pay attention to the whys of the killer's motives. The TV talk was also boring/no advance. I just want to see any scene where Sam learns more about his situation.

Next week's the final one, right?

?? Thought there were eight in the first series, but you may be right.

Next week's the final one, right?

No. We're still only halfway through this series.

When they showed the trailer for next week's episode with Sam realising that they had got his medication dose all wrong, and the lights all started switching off in 1973, I thought OH NO HE'S DYING, but then I realised that next week is only episode 5 of 8, so they can't be killing him off yet. Phew.

Ah right. This BBC3/4 confusion!

I saw the "IRA" episode 2 or 3 weeks ago.

As you were, then.

I dunno, I was 'doing something more interesting' during series 1, and only saw part of one episode.

And the DVD box would be a marvellous present for me, but birthdays and xmas have gone, and it's ages till the next celebration. When's fatha's day?

June

whaddayagonnado

It's interesting that there was no real advance in Sam's condition, but I do love the fact that the smell of his aunt's perfume triggered a whole episode based around wanting to protect her from a killer. I thought it was good. Also the Pedigree Chum line was great, but I still don't like it when Sam invents police procedures.

It can get a bit Marty McFly "ah you aint quite ready for this yet!"

the pitch must have been: 'quantum leap' was great but is it me or did you want sam never to leave the one timezone? for the whole series? or even two!?

budgetary constraints obviously


'Tony Blair' was fun

was a good un - old corrie actresses aside. i would've liked more 'sam r feeling alone' stuff. there was some ponderousness/padding in there that seemed aimless, or reaching for something. more lonely sam plz. and gilbert o'sullivan

fucking santana

Gene Hunt spin-off series an absolute must, Mr BBC.

monkfish.

Gene Hunt spin-off series an absolute must, Mr BBC.

No, please no. He is perfect the way he is. Too much would ruin the magic.

hmmm. it was okay. problem for me is that the second episode (harry wolf) was so great it's gonna eclipse absolutely everything else. like steve, i got a bit bored with the story; still, the pie joke was superb and the whole gene turning up at the party/mrs luckhurst thing was inspired.

i'm sure that a 1980s ford granada drove by in one shot (just before denise got thrown out of the lotus), and that upset me :) :)

Well, think of it as being the guy's psyche is losing the grip on 1973 on the odd occasion.

i think if ur noticing that kind of thing the tv show is insufficiently gripping and too oriented towards 70s nostalgia.

i think if ur noticing that kind of thing the tv show is insufficiently gripping and too oriented towards 70s nostalgia.

I think it's more likely that Grimly's MIGHTY CAR BRANE spots things like that.

Bumpity bump for the marvellous Camberwick Green bit and Gene Hunt totally hitting his stride in the last couple of eps (I've just watched three - the IRA one, the wife-swapping one and the him-off-Home-To-Roost's-a-kiddy-fiddler one - in a row).

Three ex-Corrie actresses in wife-swapper one. They missed a trick by not involving Sam's mum as well as his aunt.

I was a bit sad that they didn't make more of Ray's PTSD rather than returning him to corner-cutting sexist boor after two near-death experiences.

tonight: grimly's MIGHTY TAB BRANE wonders if anyone in manchester was really smoking marlboro reds in 1973 :/

other than that: what a superb episode. absolutely brilliant. the camberwick green thing nearly made me cry (pavlovian response to the musical box ... not going any further with this one because it would take all night ... suffice it to say that the music wasn't quite right, which probably saved me), then piss myself (the puppet gene was gene-ius).

and the episode itself was superb, esp the way it dealt with different characters' perception (which, of course, is a defining characteristic of the whole show ... anyway, yes).

the kidnapped girl's dad looks and sounds so like a colleague of mine that it was kinda freaky.

grimly and ailsa in life on mars xpost non-shockah.

I was a bit sad that they didn't make more of Ray's PTSD rather than returning him to corner-cutting sexist boor after two near-death experiences

IT'S BECAUSE HE'S WELL FUCKIN' 'ARD.

Ha, the Marlboro Reds thing got me thinking, but I know very little of cigarette smoking in the early 70s other than that my dad smoked something in a white and blue box that may have been Regals.

I also thought that the girl playing Charlie seemed just a bit too 21st century. Generally the cast look very of the time, but she really really didn't. Neither, come to think of it, did Reece Dinsdale.

tonight: grimly's MIGHTY TAB BRANE wonders if anyone in manchester was really smoking marlboro reds in 1973 :/

I was wondering that as well. As an ex-Marlboro girl myself, I always notice them.

Nice to see an EastEnders actress getting a look in for a change, I thought.

God, I love this show so much. But yes, as someone points out above, I'm not really sure what I'm buying into, exactly, other than a telly subscription.

"and I ask again, only slightly louder, HOW?!"

Camberwick Green bit was laugh-out-loud funny. Absolutely brilliant.

I guessed that Simon Lamb was the killer in the first ten minutes.

"Christ, you're burning up. I don't know whether to brief you or cook my breakfast on you!"
And, oh, if I could only remember the quote about the sharp, fiery sticks. Wonderful. Also, I quite liked the "...the way you treat women like bean-bags" bit. Not often that John Simm gets the good stuff.

I missed the CG bit, turned over 2 mins into prog!

After Grimly's message, I now understand John Sims' "STAY OUT OF CAMBERWICK GREEN!!" line.

I'm sure that when Sam wakes up the characters from his 1973 world will be on the ward. Gene Hunt will be his consultant, Annie the ward sister, Gladys the cleaner etc

The Camberwick Green bit is on Youtube already

Here

I missed the Camberwick Green piece before. That's fantastic.

Except it chops off the bit where Gene and the nonce both give the camera a little wave.

I guessed that Simon Lamb was the killer in the first ten minutes.

Me too, but they wrong-footed me with his 'fake' confession and I unguessed. Clever writing there.

Nothing to add to the praise already heaped on this episode, really. Just terrific.

I especially liked:
Sam: I'm seeing things
Annie: You're always seeing things

same youtube clip posted 23rd Jan by a certain rodbegbie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBFxscicJA0&mode=related&search=
cuts off in exactly the same place. why do people do this?

Yeah, that was annoying. Gene waving happily at the camera then going back to giving the nonce a good kicking was the funniest bit.

I missed the end, but it was the 'fake confession' that put me onto him!

Who did the kidnapping then?

I'm sure that when Sam wakes up the characters from his 1973 world will be on the ward. Gene Hunt will be his consultant, Annie the ward sister, Gladys the cleaner etc
Aerial Telly on Wednesday, 21 March 2007 11:52 (3 hours ago)

That'd be a bit too much like The Singing Detective if you ask me and would therefore demean the show by having it compare itself to a far superior piece of work.

Personally, I find the thing unwatchable. This is mainly because I grew up in Manchester in the 70s and I find that the show bears no resemblance whatsoever to how the place actually was (everything's too bloody clean for starters; it was all covered in soot)

Now there is the argument that these are hallucinations based on the John Simm character's childhood memories - which would explain why everyone's white and why they all live in terraced houses; as obviously the protagonist must actually have only visited Manchester once or twice as a child...

Kidnapper was the dead girl's father

Who looked strikingly like the nonce Gene was beating up in the beginning. So much so that I thought it was him wot done it.

The murder I mean.

Now there is the argument that these are hallucinations based on the John Simm character's childhood memories - which would explain why everyone's white and why they all live in terraced houses; as obviously the protagonist must actually have only visited Manchester once or twice as a child...


Plus, he's 'living' in a TV programme from 1973, not actually 1973 itself!

That would explain the no black people bit very well actually. Although, that being the case, you'd expect the few black or asian faces who showed up to be stereotypes of the worst kind - I'm surprised my Mum even let me watch tv back then, maybe it was a know the enemy kinda thing. i.e. "Look at this son, this is what the white folks think we're all like."

The barman's black, and a bit of a stereotype. And an Asian family did move into the street at the end of the IRA one. And there was a whole episode centred round a young black copper who was really high up in the force in what we'll call Sam's future. Tokenism, yes, but I'm pretty sure everything on LoM isn't. People didn't actually go around saying "mmm, Blue Nun and black forest gateau, let's all listen to Santana", it's Hammering Points Home About Stuff.

also, Rod Begbie! Bloody hell! (with apologies to everyone on the thread that isn't Koogs)

Here is a bit more of the Camberwick Green bit, with Gene's cheery wave, but it stops there, rather than him returning to the kicking.

So is there a consensus that this is better than the first series? Cos I was somewhat agnostic at the end of S1, and now I'm a full convert.

I'm sure there was a quote at the same time that Santana record went on that "This isn't just good food..." or somesuch. M&S reference, anyway.

I've seen bits of this, there was a bit about with the 70s cops not understanding the concept of "surveillance" was struck me as being really wide of the mark - haven't these people ever seen "The Sweeney"... silly question

also, Rod Begbie! Bloody hell!

My reaction too!

I loved the animation at the start. But I couldn't help thinking that the dead girl's dad looked like Philip Larkin.

Tuesday's episode was fantastic telly - the only jar was when Gene said the ransom note was in the same font as the local paper - he'd have said something like 'it's the same letters'. And Reese Dinsdale's suit was the wrong cut for 1973.

Weren't the Dinsdales gangsters in Monty Python?

Not quite, Doug & Dinsdale Piranha

haven't these people ever seen "The Sweeney"... silly question

Not for another two years, apparently. Very cheeky of the BBC to set this show before seminal influential, blah blah. Otherwise there is no way they wouldn't all be saying 'oh, I saw this on the Sweeney'.

"The Sweeney" wasn't on till 1975?

52 second version of the 'kicking in a nonce' thing (with added dustbin lid) here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixsc9POvY7E&NR
(i think this is taken from the show, not the shorter trailer, as it pans away at the end. and you're right, the music is wrong)

(dinsdale was one of the piranha brothers: http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/piranha.htm)

That's what it says on the IMDB.

Yes, it ran from 1975 -78, it seems. The pilot, "Regan", was 1974.

I heard the producer for this show speak last night. He kept saying things like "IF the main character is in 1973" and so on. I've never seen the show but I thought that was the whole premise!

One interesting thing he mentioned is that the direction they give to all the people who write for the show is to always remember that the main character is never comfortable, anywhere he is. Producer dude said if the main character ever felt comfortable the whole show would fall down.

Another NB for fans: apparently Tuesday's show was written the way it was in order to give lead actor a bit of a breather - he's in every minute of every scene of every show and they said they had promised him that there would be at least one show this season where he wasn't.

An actor wanting not wanting to be in every scene! Surely a first!!

"in order to give lead actor a bit of a breather" - this is exactly what i was thinking!

I think it is nice when people who don't watch the programme you like still come and tell you interesting things about it.

Why is it that everything I type today just looks sarcastic?

Bit like the Prisoner , that one where they swap his mind into someone elses body.

I decided in the car on the way home today that what is wrong with this series is the different writers not knowing what's going on, like what befalls Doctor Who sometimes. This would explain why Ray had recovered from his post-traumatic stress disorder so quickly, for example.

There was something else incongruous that Gene said too, not just about the newspaper font. I can't remember offhand what it was though. Everything else is so meticulous in a Stuart-Maconie-we-love-the-70s sort of a way, I'm really buying this theory that it's all in Sam's head, and he's getting the finer details wrong himself.

I thought that in last night's episode it seemed much more obvious how things happening to Sam in his coma were percolating through into his 1973 consciousness. Like the electric iron being tied to his chest = perhaps an attempt at resuscitating him with CPR, and the whole thing about the girl reminding him of Maya.

Laugh out loud moment : "He wasn't moving!!" "Chris doesn't move, but he's not dead!"

I agree with Ailsa and CJ. It would be nice if there was more progression. Essentially you can watch the episodes in any order at all and they still make sense, kind of. Certainly in this series. Many laugh out loud Gene Hunt moments last night, but for the life of me I can't quite remember what they were. Where do I know that drug dealer bloke from?

There were lots of laughs in that episode, but in other ways it seemed strangely unbalanced. Toolbox wasn't introduced very well - has he been in it before? Someone did actually bother thinking about developing Gene's character, though, which made a change.

I should have realised that the extra-heavy slagging of Chris would have led up to something like that climax.

Biggest laugh: when Big Bird took the ferrets out of the sack.

I could see the sack moving about when she was holding it, so I'd already guessed what was in there. When she took the ferret out, it made me wince (and I'm not even a guy).

another slightly disappointing one, that. i get the feeling it was quite badly edited (and maybe at the script stage too): no, toolbox wasn't introduced properly at all, and the whole "sam works it out" resolution at the end was so sudden and mcguffin-powered as to be totally absurd ("the rug ... HEY, I'VE SOLVED IT ... oh, and look, there's annie, just out of my eyeline!"

yes, there was a lot going on during the episode, but ... well, they know they've got fifty-whatever minutes to make it work, so tough.

there were some genuine lol gene moments - his little series of spectacularly un-PC metaphors; the conversation with sam about lesley in the interview room - but they had little to do with the plot, and you can kinda see how they're just being written in for shits 'n' giggles. less of that, slightly more room for the story to breathe.

next week's looks teh ace, though.

From next week's trailer, I love Gene's idea of a disguise: dark glasses and no tie

How they got away with some of the one liners in last night's ep. will continue to escape me. Very very funny, but with kind of a "oooooh, I know I shouldn't be laughing at this" guilt-ridden facet. I'm pretty sure some of the writers will have been aching to use those for years, and would have been as happy as larry when the opportunity of writing something based in 1973 presented itself. For example, the line about the magnet factory nearly made me wet myself, but I don't think I'd repeat it in full on here, jic.

no, i wouldn't repeat any of them either!

'namby pamby, gaylord, airy fairy, man-u-loving, poofy' LOLz

FYI, Ashes to Ashes is going into pre-production next month with shooting scheduled to finish in November.

Haha "he's as nervous as a midget nun at a penguin shoot".

I still maintain, as others have, that the way the plots are simplifying, the way the 70s references are getting clunkier and more obvious, the way the timeline is slipping - it's all pointing to "Sam is in a coma and he's dreaming himself into a 70s TV show" which I have been expounding to people here and in real life. Except I can't remember what I've said here, what I've extrapolated from what others have said here, and what I've just waffled to Neil when watching it. Have we had the Wizard of Oz theory here as well (can't be arsed reading whole thread) - the Dorothy references are coming thick and fast now.

Saying that, I was all "haha, she's called Layla Dylan, that's totally something in Sam's mind because he's MAKING IT UP like someone who doesn't really remember the 70s, just has a rose-tinted view of it based on crappy "I wuv teh 70s telly" programmes, I AM RIGHT" theory was shot down in flames about ten seconds after I voiced it to Neil last night by her explaining she'd made it up herself. Perhaps the writers just WANT me to think that, then mock me for doing so. Bastards.

I read a geat theory somewhere else on teh interwebs about how Gene, Ray, Chris, Annie, etc, were all in a spoof-70s TV cop show which pre-coma Sam had watched and enjoyed and coma-Sam had placed himself in. This would explain Sam's non-70s appearance in an otherwise 70s-set world and the clunkiness of the references, and could also explain how Ashes to Ashes would work - it would be this show but without the input of the fiction-within-fiction interloper. I think I'm explaining this craply, and adding my own bits to it, but that's the general idea, I think.

It's not always good but sometimes it is and I like it.

Gah, that reads like crap. Note to self: do this sober.

surely Sam would recognise the characters he watched on TV before the coma. his psyche wouldn't place him there if he was incapable of recognising them.

Sam's clothes look reasonably 70s - tho a man with his hair would not have worn leather back then I figure.

His hair looks really non-70s. He looks so much not of his time - retro rather than genuine.

Lolz at trying to pick holes in the logic of something in order to prove that he actually TRAVELLED THROUGH TIME instead (not specifically aimed at you, Steve)

ha, that "his time" = 1973. Except that's not his time at all. Sorry.

Maybe he just looks like that to us, in a Sam Beckett (the other one) stylee.

More fingers in more pies than a leper on a cookery course.

I kind of hope they don't give a definite solution at the end.

ailsa, your slightly drunken theories make a lot of sense, and you're pretty much obviously OTM with yr wizard of oz thing ...

... gene's replacement's name ... we all got this, yeh? ...

... okay, i didn't, but mrs fiendish did :)

Oh aye, that was one of the things. (though I read it somewhere else). Also, OMG, Dark Side of the Moon was released in 1973!!!

This is the CD soundtrack to accompany the series :

Track List

Introduction - dialogue - King of the jungle
David Bowie - Life on Mars?
Roxy Music - Street life
Wings - Live & let die
ELO - 10538 overture
John Kongos - Tokoloshi man
Atomic Rooster - Devil's answer
T-Rex - Rock on
Free - Little bit of love
The Upsetters - Jungle lion
Brief Interlude - dialogue - Armed b********
Sweet - Blockbuster
The Faces - Cindy incidentally
Anandar Skankar - Snow flower
Slade - Coz i luv you
Mott The Hoople - One of the boys
Lindisfarne - Meet me on the corner
Frankie Miller - I can't change it
Thin Lizzy - Whiskey in the jar
Audience- I had a dream
Uriah Heep - Traveller in time
Nina Simone - I wish I knew
Epilogue - dialogue - I want to go home



No Glitterband, then.

Thuh Glitterband are INNOCENT!

it will end with Sam in a bar talking to the barman who turns out to be god. or something.

Something which has been niggling me a bit - and this might have been answered in the early episodes of series 1 (which I missed, unfortunately) - but how does Sam manage to live in his 1973 existence? I mean, did he just march into the police station and annouce he was being transferred there? Did everyone i.e. Gene Hunt, Annie etc accept this without question or the relevant transfer paperwork? Where does he get his money from? Is he on police payroll? Does he have a bank account? How did he get that room he presumably rents? Is he registered with a doctor, and does he have medical records he could find if he wanted? Because if he simply doesn't exist in that time, how does he live?

I suspect none of this matters and we're just supposed to accept without question that he's living in 1973, but this sort of thing keeps me awake at night, wondering.

Lends itself to the fact that this is all AN DREAM, 'cause then all the characters would just fit into the situation.

Mind you, I had a dream once in which a "Loved Up"-era Lena Heady refused to sleep with me. It was MY DREAM, for crying out loud. Jesus.

It's bothersome not to be able to control one's own dreams.

I wouldn't mind Annie in my dreams.

Further Wizard of Oz theory:

Sam = Dorothy
Annie = Toto
Chris = scarecrow with no brain
Ray = Tinman with no heart
Gene = Scaredy Lion

plus the thing grimly was talking about

Sam = not in Kansas anymore. Have we had "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" on the music yet? That came out in 1973 as well.

Ooh, perhaps Chris = cowardly lion who got his courage at the end of the last episode. Though he got a girlfriend, so perhaps he's the tinman and he got a heart. All three of them could be all three of the lion, scarecrow & tinman, really, at various times - perhaps they forgot to outline which is which to the scriptwriters. Annie's still Toto though.

I think Gene might be the Tinman, actually, and the revelations about his brother = him showing he has a heart after all. Though I thought that might be the point about Ray's post-traumatic stress-disorder.

I am overthinking. aldo to thread please, he's better at this than me.

Right, despite actual appearance of THE WIZARD OF OZ in this episode, I'm back off this theory again. Except I don't have a better one to explain it with anymore.

How teh hell is it only mid-July (as per WizofOz' taped interview)? This totally runs in Heartbeat years :-(

However. shitey plot and complete overall-story-arc-WTFness aside, Gene's head in Tufty costume = marvellous.

Lack of next week spoilerz could make some people conclude there are shocks from the start.

Or else the Beeb want lots of people tuning in for a big ol' ratings winner rather than thinking "nah, that looks dull". Builds suspense, innit. I bet it's shite.

see, this ep (which i enjoyed vastly) sets up OH NOES SAM MUST DESTROY GENE TO GET BACK TO 2006(7?)

but what mrs fiendish has read elsewhere about the next one doesn't seem to back that up at all. the lack of coherence between episodes does annoy the fuck out of me. still. surely they can't just spunk THAT away?

only one more to go, though?! fuck. i'm working late next tuesday as well. i bet my video blows up or something too :/

It's just not interesting when Gene's not on screen.

God bless his squirrel senses.

I'm now baffled as to how they can resolve this (particularly after the OH NOES YOU MUST GET RID OF GENE TO WIN line) and still record Ashes To Ashes (which Phil Glenister all but confirmed on the radio yesterday).

Due to the appearance of Ralph Brown in this episode I am led to believe that Sam is actually DRUGGED DOWN THE DRAIN.

I've only just twigged why Ashes to Ashes is called Ashes to Ashes.

Maybe they'll do a follow-on series called the Laughing Gnome.

"We gnome ajor Tom's a junkie" etc. etc.

There a bit stuck if they want to do a 90s one. Er... Hello Spaceboy?

"Little Wonder"

'The Buddha Of Suburbia'

Broadcast magazine says "Life on Mars has captured the imagination of viewers and critics alike. Mainly because they want to know the truth about DI Sam Tyler". I couldn't disagree more! I don't care about the truth! I just want great drama!

I can't imagine being anything other than disappointed by any "explanation" as to why he's in 1973. It's like going to the theatre and having some dude come on after the end and say "you may think that you were watching nuns cavorting on a Swiss mountainside, but actually the nuns are all actors speaking fictional lines and the mountain is made out of glass fibre and astroturf! So that explains it!"

It's true, you know. I don't really care. I care about what happens to Gene Hunt. And Chris, bless him.

Gene Hunt goes on to star in State of Play later in his life. Whilst looking, er, younger.

"Real Cool World"

i'm fed up with the show's 59 minutes of bog-standard police drama and then 1 minute of spooky stuff at the end in which we learn about 1% of the overall information pie.

AND JUST KISS ALREADY FFS

(not Gene and Sam)

No, they'll be kissing just as he zaps back into the futurepresent, sure as eggs is eggs...

hoping each time that the next coma will be the coma... hooooome

Oh boy.

The current Radio Times has this to say on the Hyde 2612 anonymous caller:

"It's worth remembering the voice at the end of the phone, as it will eventually reveal the truth of Sam's situation."

Was that voice and Frank Morgan one and the same? In which case, is Sam really following the Wizard?

I like the theory that Gene Hunt's name is to be taken literally - ergo, Sam is looking for his dad, and Gene... naaah.

ah!

They always say the subconscious mind searches out and uses puns.

I read somewhere that Matthew Graham has said that it wasn't actually meant to mean anything, it was just a name, but he'd read some interweb mentalists searching for a deeper meaning in the name and, um, might have decided to do something with it after all somewhere down the line. I think.

i saw a colleague with a radio times today so whisked it away (in a gene hunt stylee, natch) to pore over the feature. i'm more confused than ever now. the "cosmic significance" of "hyde 2612"? i'd got boxing day, but ... hmm.

there are a couple of references in there to cosmic stuff. life on mars. hmm. anyone? 'cos i'm stumped.

John Simm was in the pub with us tonight. I nearly went up and said 'I loved you in Men Of The World'.

I've only just finished the first season, but really, I care so very little about Sim and why he's there. I just want lots more of Gene flicking the Vs at 5-year-olds or saying "sorry ma'am, he actually thinks like that" or just generally geneing about.

"The Gene genie" is a bit cringe, though.

Shit, I only just thought of the boxing day thing last night (yes, I was sitting in the pub thinking of Life on Mars theories, I am that sad) and damn, grimly's beaten me to it.

The "on another planet" reference in the spoken word bit over the opening credits (is that new this series, I can't really remember it from the first one) is trying to point out the cosmic thing as well. As much as Stet is OTM about not giving that much of a shit why Sam's there, I'll still feel very let down if there's not a really good explanation.

i'm glad stet's started watching this, because he'll now appreciate the true glory of my the desktop picture i've had for the duration of series 2:

http://sparky.thehold.net/pix/lifeonmarssmall.jpg

does that big chap with the spiky hair and kinda facial hair thing gene is, umm, "talking to" remind you of anyone? :)

<i>of my the</i>

i'm glad stet's so busy at work, because it means he won't have the time to point out my typos.

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE. OR MY INABILITY TO HIT A VERY SIMPLE "CONVERT" BUTTON. JESUS.

Ailsa, I'll feel let down if there is one!

Lolz at Gene slapping stet.

Mark, I'm pretty sure I'll feel let down by whatever explanation they give (I'm fairly convinced we'll get one) because whatever it is, it won't be the right one. I honestly can't see how they get to end this now, and still do Ashes to Ashes.

i care, but not much. like stet says: for me the most important thing is more gene hunt japery, in whatever form. even if it's proved beyond doubt that he doesn't, er, "exist".

OMG OMG OMG! (possibly spoiler-tastic trailer, but it's been on teh telly, I assume)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJrameocE7k

but how does Sam manage to live in his 1973 existence?
Right after he found himself in 1973 he went to pull his warrant card and it was a 1973 one. A copper came up to him and said he was sent to meet the new transfer from Hyde -- DC Tyler. His whole life was transferred, essentially.

Oh GOD I love this show. I've been laughing at episodes so far, but the Camberwick Green Gene Hunt had me laughing out loud.

http://bonaldi.thehold.net/chiz/gene.png

And yeh, so I'm about 100 posts and three shows behind everyone else. I just hope that when it ends we don't have to suffer him going to see 75-year-old Gene cackling in some home.

Oh god, I hadn't thought of that. No, that would be very bad. Very bad.

I had forgotten this, and it's great:

Bursting in on Stephen Warren, who is performing an act of oral sex on another man]
Gene Hunt: I'm not a Catholic me'self Mr Warren, but isn't there something in the Bible about "Thou shalt not suck off rent boys"?
Warren: How dare you come in here!
Gene Hunt: You could have said that to the boy.

i feel like they've still got loads left to sort out/explore - this series has just drifted along and there's been no deeper insight into why Sam is there really/why it happened. is there enough time in one hour to punch Gene in the face, kiss Annie, be slapped by Annie, pursue criminal in a 'i'd rather die like this then in a hospital bed' deathwish scenario, have it all explained properly by AltGuv/Satan/whoever he is (and not just the 'it's only a dream so to end the dream you must destroy everything in the deram innit' thing) AND return to the present. some of these things will not happen but i have no idea which ones - which is exciting really even if it does turn out disappointing.

I cannot tell you how much I don't want this programme to be over. I saw John Simm on the Culture Show the other day, and it occurs to me that he is my very favourite kind of actor. He has nothing at all to say for himself in interviews, but he is great in the roles he takes. I wish they'd given him more amusing lines and less squinting and swaggering, because he is really, really good.

I watched last week's episode with a female friend and a gay friend and I don't think I've ever heard so much drool hitting the floor as when Simm was onscreen.

That wasn't drool

I watched last week's episode with a female friend and a gay friend and I don't think I've ever heard so much drool hitting the floor as when Simm was onscreen.

Oh alright, yes, I'll fess up. I also fancy him. I just hate the idea of being someone who only watches television programmes because there's someone in it I fancy.

HMMMMM

The BBC has announced an Eighties sequel to the TV smash hit Life on Mars.
Ashes to Ashes will once again star Philip Glenister, 44, as unreconstructed chauvinist DCI Gene Hunt.
But the series will move from the 1970s to the "New Romantic" Eighties and from the streets of Manchester to the capital.
Sam Tyler, played by John Simm, whose mysterious time-travel was finally explained in the finale of Life on Mars last night, will be replaced by a female DCI, Alex Drake.
Her character has risen rapidly through the Met and is using psychological profiling to capture suspects in the modern world of 2008.
But when she and her daughter are kidnapped, she makes a daring attempt at escape which results in an accident.
She suddenly finds herself in 1981 interacting with Hunt, who has turned his attention to the "southern nancy" criminal scum in London.
She also finds herself with familiar characters from her own lifetime and from the detailed reports logged by Sam Tyler - who will not be making a return.
Jane Featherstone, executive producer for TV production company Kudos, said: "Ashes to Ashes is the next chapter in the life of Gene Hunt, as seen through the eyes of a modern, no-nonsense woman.
"It's a touch of Moonlighting teamed with a measure of Miami Vice. The search for Gene's sexy side-kick is definitely on - she'll hopefully give him a serious run for his money."

am I the only one finding this a little........ disappointing

It sounds bawz! Another time-traveller? Bugr that. Is she going to take up chunks of every episode moping about spouting non-sequitors and hearing doctors talk? boo.

i mean the final episode, but yeah, a2a don't sound wonderful either

o, not watching that till i catch up.

Simultaneously a cop-out and a cop-in. No pun intended. Deeply unsatisfying.

Wonderful.

They never could have come up with a satisfactory explanation, so it's for the best they left it open. It was a completely riveting hour of TV.

Grrr, I spent large amounts of it shouting "NO! That doesn't even make sense!" at the telly. I'm not sure what I wanted, but that wasn't it. The Mars and the Hyde 2612 explanations especially.

Also, not enough Gene Hunt.

Predictible responses are rolling in I see.

(This might be a spoiler, but to be honest I've no idea if this is what actually happened!)

I like the subtext: life in modern Britain is so rubbish we should all kill ourselves and imagine we're back in the 70s when men were real men, women were birds, and coppers were all bent!

Yeah, if it is all in his head it's actually a pretty dark story and essentially he killed himself at the end.

Aye, that's about the size of it. Sitting in faceless offices talking to sub-Apprentice suits = you might as well kill yourself and send yourself back to a time when things got done.

I'm not sure it's quite that dark. Yes, he killed himself, but hi there, inoperable brain tumour which was going to kill him, probably fairly soon, anyway. I don't know why the surgeon said that it was good news that the tumour was benign. Most brain tumours are benign. They still kill you, just by growing.

I didn't like all the fannying about with Frank Morgan, because I couldn't quite figure out the point of it. Of course he wasn't really transferred from somewhere else in the same time period, he'd just been quoting Robocop only a few minutes before, for god's sake.
On the other hand, I did love the entire end sequence. I am a total sucker for this kind of thing, me. In fact I got something quite serious in my eye there at the end. Or maybe it was some kind of allergy. Yes, hayfever. That's it.

so looks like the tapes we see him make and send off in the 'present' end up with this Alex Drake bird

Of course, there was nothing in the ending that ruled out the notion that actual time travel was involved.

So was 1973 Sam Sam Williams or Sam Tyler? And why did he not get sent back to Hyde at end of mission? Was Frank Morgan even in 1973 at all? Or is he back in some OTHER 1973 now? And how is future-Sam still living in 1973 alongside wee version of himself + Mum, knowing that he's going to jump off a roof in 34 years time? I DON'T UNDERSTAND I AM STUPID.

I don't think you're supposed to fully. I kind of like it like that.

But at least being able to get a handle on SOMETHING rather than going "wuh, that doesn't make any sort of sense" would be nice.

The dramatic point was that Sam made a choice - whether it was vitality over inertia or fantasy over reality (or both) is left to the viewer.

(xpost) well, how about 'it is all made up and in his head, but he would rather stay in the fantasy'. there done.

not saying it is just that. but if you want something coherent that does the job.

Well, obviously he didn't get sent back to Hyde at the end of the mission because he fucked up the mission (and when I say "obviously" I mean "as far as I can tell, I hadn't really thought about it"). Frank Morgan must have been in 1973, because the others saw him too in the previous episode. Was he in 1973 in this episode? Good question. His wee self and his mum have pissed off somewhere out of Manchester, so they're not likely to be an issue.

It's not really clear. As chap says.

(they played Somewhere Over The Rainbow too, so I still get my Wizard of Oz theory points though)

xxpost - yes, I get that. But the lead-up to it, and the resolution = garbled and convoluted as fuck. I don't see why I get to just ignore that and take a nice pat resolution out of it.

What Ailsa said mainly, esp about the li'l Sam conundrum. What's more, let's face it he'd get fed up with it again soon. And if it is 1973, then his beloved Man U are about to get relegated and he won't see them win the title til he's almost 60.

There's a good chance he won't stay there long. Possibly he only stays in 1973 as long as he's alive. He could be dead before they reach that blag they're heading for, and will just disappear out of the car.

(they played Somewhere Over The Rainbow too, so I still get my Wizard of Oz theory points though)

and Gene called him Dorothy in the Cortina in the first few minutes.

Gene's been calling him Dorothy for weeks now. It was pretty much just that + Frank Morgan that made me think this.

I liked it! (It really really reminded me of a comic, actually - the final issue of Grant Morrison's run on Doom Patrol: similar dark but not ending.)

I think it was trying to be too many things to too many people. Coma + mad + time travel + Wizard of Oz + Gene-as-illness + love story + oh look, he's dead at the end.

That synopsis for Ashes to Ashes looks shite. Not least because it says 1973 is real and there's time travel involved, thereby cocking up all the "questions" this episode raised.

Also, I am being a bit mean because this programme gave us the phrase "you are surrounded by armed bastards" and the sight of Philip Glenister running about in his swimming trunks and that awesome Camberwick Green bit and I basically pretty much love it.

Ashes to Ashes is giving me TEH FEAR though.

a2a could all still be imaginary - the protagonist is the person who receives tyler's tapes, so it could be transmitted that way. if you like

It's not really clear. As chap says.

no, it wasn't clear. it was, in fact, shite. ailsa brings the money to this thread, then jumps up and down on it as if to prove her point.

for fuck's sake. we were promised cosmic theories and revelations; we got ... that? i could have come up with that plot "resolution" on the back of a fag packet in 30 seconds. i lost count of the number of times i found myself saying: "yup, knew that would happen." even in the last fucking minute: "right, gene'll turn up just as they kiss ..." VROOM, SCREEE.

we still have no idea whether or not any of the 1973 stuff was "real" (although the existence of the increasingly piss-poor-sounding A2A suggests we're meant to believe it was); what happened to sam's 1973 "mission" (ie we're meant to believe morgan would just let him stay with A division?); what ANY of the "OOH LOOK AT ALL THE CLEVER HYDE REFERENCES" crap about which the radio times made such a big deal actually means ... fuck's sake, i feel cheated here.

i mean, it was a good hour of TV drama in itself and the actual shoot-out on the train was magnificent. but in terms of the actual story arc, and of finding a coherent/even semi-plausible ending ... christ's teeth!

mrs fiendish adds: "if you were sam and you found yourself back in the present day, wouldn't you want to go and look up gene hunt and ray and so on and find out what happened to them? especially before jumping off a roof?"

I like the subtext: life in modern Britain is so rubbish we should all kill ourselves and imagine we're back in the 70s when men were real men, women were birds, and coppers were all bent!

well, yes: what other conclusion do we draw? i mean, the pissy little "you're not above the law, gene" as they drive off at the end means nothing: sam has made this drastic choice to escape "reality" and retreat into "fantasy", and there's no conclusion to draw other than that all the morality and progressiveness for which he stood counts for nothing against good ol'-fashioned gut instinct and heavy-handed seventies coppering. modern life is rubbish, indeed. and so is modern script-writing.

now, if i thought for a moment that was the subtext the writing team were actually aiming for, i'd be happy. but all i really see there is half-assed loose-end-tying that works not a jot.

i am a little bit drunk and probably care too much about this, but fuck's sake: we deserved a damn sight better than that.

i'll be interested to see what the reviews say ... hey, hang on! [looks at work e-mail account; bad planning means our review was being done live for second edition] ... jesus. apparently that was a classic episode that will ensure the series's reputation as something or other. no it wasn't. it was bollocks, and i feel cheated.

right! pub! oh, no. hang on. bed!

I are idiot, I didn't notice that the secret operation acronym was M.A.R.S.

In fairness, Herr Fiendish, if you don't like being able to predict things like 'as soon as they kiss, Gene is going to show up', then you must get very annoyed a lot of the time watching television, because it is full of things like this.

On reflection, I would have liked a lot less (a LOT less) of the secret mission from Hyde rubbish, and for that time to have been filled with Sam being back in the modern world, kind of isolated, kind of bored, kind of frustrated, kind of lonely. I would also have liked them to emphasise the INOPERABLE BRANE TUMOUR. Then I would have pretty much played the ending as it was there. I liked it fine. In fact I loved it. It was utterly cheesy and yes, you could have directed it yourself, but it was still great. Sometimes just seeing stories played out exactly as you would like can be very satisfying.

I can't dispel the idea that the politics of the ending are a very regressive. Back in 2007, we have PC nonsense elevated to management practice. But remember, they're discussing the ethics of a particular practice in the meeting, something Sam has been longing to see in 1973 policing, but instead it seems his dream has turned to shit.

The police are essentially decent old coves, the corruption purely based on ends-justifying-the-means scumbag catching, or perhaps, How I Leanred to Love The West Midland Serious Crime Squad and Stop worrying about racism, sexism, miscarriages of justice and petty corruption. I love the 70s, and think they're long overdue a reassessment away from the Thatcher story of national breakdown and decline, but this isn't the kind of revisionism I was after.

Having retired to my sick bed after posting last night, some more thoughts.

Unsatisfying, but then what wouln't have been? There was probably just too much to tie together, and certainly too much that couldn't be resolved. Then there was the announcement of the sequel show, which meant there had to be a pretty damn solid reason for Gene Hunt. And the Radio Times, reminding us of the EARTH SHATTERING significance of Hyde.

And in the end, that was what spoiled it. Too much hype from a company who suddenly had a far bigger hit on its hands than it thought it would, and didn't know how to market it. A company who saw money and couldn't leave well alone. And a company who probably used too many different writers on what was supposed to be a simple plot.

Too many writers? Well Series 2 featured 6 in only 8 episodes - is it any wonder then that there are ends left dangling? Well there is, when one of the primary problems can't possibly be resolved by the ending and both of the episodes in question were supposedly written by Matthew Graham. In Episode 1 of Series 2 we have the story of Tony Crane, a nasty villain Sam thinks is trying to kill him in 2007. During the episode, SAM CHANGES THE FUTURE which we can now be sure is confirmed in the episode itself since Ep 8 makes explicit that what Sam hears/sees on the TV and radio is really what's happening. HOW?

Gene Hunt is now a real problem, and one which ruins the premise to Ashes To Ashes before it starts. GENE HUNT IS A BRAIN TUMOUR. So the woman in the new show has a tumour too? If we turn to the character, "he loves his city, it's (his) blood." So why are we expected to believe he leaves it as the heroin problem gets worse, the IRA actually start up, and lawlessness increases?

The plot itself was OK. As Tom says, the hand of GMo could well have hovered over it, but it's still ambiguous. The "stunning revelations", however, were of such a minor scale that other shows would just have tossed them in for free and not trumpeted them. Hyde is his ward name? BIG DEAL. It still doesn't clear up which one is the reality and which one is the imagination - after all, Sam can't feel anything in the future so 2007 could have just been a vision, a final rejection of the voices in his head and the madness. Or is it that it's better to be happy in madness that living in Blair's Britain (and the use of Tony & Gordon as alias' would seem to make it clear it's laid at their doorstep)? Or is it something else?

Of course it's something else. It's a direct lift from literature. It's Brave New World with a happy ending tacked on. Wikipedia's summary of the John The Savage character (Brave New World spoilers, obviously):

In this work of fiction, there exist reserves for the uncivilized members of the World State. These areas are surrounded by electrified barbed wire, and as stated in the book 'those that are born there, die there'. Visiting is restricted to very few; Bernard Marx, being a psychologist, is an exception.

The reserves are uncivilized according to World State standards, because the inhabitants practice religion, and they have families. The reserves are also uncivilized by the standards of Huxley and his audience, because they resemble the Indian reservations of the time. John the Savage lives on such a reserve, but unlike the other inhabitants, he is fair skinned and has light hair. His mother, Linda, used to live in civilization, until she became pregnant with John. Mothers were an abomination to civilization, and so Linda was too ashamed to leave the reservation. But she maintained her old promiscuity, and so Linda's conditioned attitude about sex combined with John's English features caused the other inhabitants to mock John.

John "The Savage" was brought up outside of the World State system, but he too was 'conditioned' by three things: 1. the primitive Indian tribes 2. The Complete Works of William Shakespeare, which was an outlawed book in World State, and 3. his mother's own shabby guidance.

When Bernard and Lenina encounter John "The Savage" (also known as 'Mr. Savage') he is overjoyed, having never been accepted by his own society because of his mother's sexual misdemeanors and his fair skin.

He travels to the brave new world, along with his mother, and becomes a novelty. Bernard, who was an outcast of his society, uses him to gain popularity. John becomes disillusioned by his mother's death, the use of the 'Soma' drug, the meaningless life of the Londoners, and by the terrible "twins" - scientists of the future have discovered how to cause a zygote to "bud" and create multiple copies of a single human; the resulting "Bokanovsky groups" are assigned to menial tasks suited to their stunted mental and physical condition, thus maintaining social stability.

John "The Savage" says he wants real danger, pain, and sin. He is unable to return to the reservation, and unable to accompany Bernard to an 'island'. He therefore attempts to isolate himself, and undergoes a strict regimen of self-torture to make himself worthy.

Because of the large amount of public attention he receives (brought about by the airing of a 'feely' of him whipping himself into repentance) he engages in a Soma induced orgy, and he begins to despair from the nature of the Brave New World.

Finally, he commits suicide, and the "brave new world" wins him over. His death can be seen a symbol of the complete destruction of his society.

John The Savage is Tyler
1973 is the Reserve
2007 is the World State
Bernard Marx is Frank Morgan

Do you know how this could have ended? Two scene changes, that's it.

When Sam comes round from the operation, he sees Frank Morgan. The 1973 Frank Morgan. He realised he couldn't just let A Division die or he would have been as bad as them and so the backup came in after all. Sam was caught in the crossfire and needed surgery.
Instead of the 2007 scenes we see Sam turn his back on C Division and decide to stay with A division. Without someone to take the stand, Frank Morgan's case collapses and Gene stays in charge.
Cut to the pub scene. Tuning the radio at the end is Sam's final rejection of his delusions.

But that doesn't work. Sam cannot have been some mad bloke from the 1970s, unless he was some mad bloke from the 1970s who predicted chunky Kit Kats, Robocop, and stingers. Not to mention that Virgin would have a phone company. Unless I'm missing something.

I absolutely agree with you about the hype and the problem of having an unexpected hit. I think part of the reason I enjoyed this more than you or Grimly is because I read nothing about it except on this thread and had really very few expectations. I only wanted to know whether he went home at the end or stayed in 1973, and so I was happy (as long as I ignored all the shit bits).

The stuff he imagines is from the future is coincidentally the same as ours, but there's no guarantee it's from the future of his 1973. Yes, that's bollocks, but it's no more untidy than the ending shown and is probably an easier Maguffin to swallow.

(Actually, at the moment RTD's Doctor Who is having the opposite problem with referencing things from the present day, that they introduce paradoxes that can't resolved. For example, somebody has been referred to as a Del Boy, which means Only Fools And Horses exists in the NuWho universe. In return, OFAH has referred to Doctor Who so the Doctor Who TV show exists in the OFAH universe, which means the Doctor Who TV show also exists in the NuWho universe. But that's probably for the Who thread...)

I like those kinds of paradoxes tho. Reminds me of when Arthur Fowler was going mad and watching Postman Pat on TV and how badly I wanted them to show Postman Pat at home with his feet up watching 'Stenders...only to see what Arthur was seeing, sit bolt upright looking very alarmed and then turning to camera.

some of these things will not happen but i have no idea which ones - which is exciting really even if it does turn out disappointing.

and so it was!

i think Sam punching Gene was the only one that didn't happen?

Since when has it been a paradox to have a TV series based on something real? The fifteen versions of Elizabeth?

The problem with LoM was that the premise (current copper goes back in time) was a frame to hang the anachronism on. It was never supposed to be a sci-fi show, and therefore the whole "mystery" aspect of Sam's resolution would either be a bit disappointing or ridiculously convoluted. In the end they went for the simple but narratively compelling ending.

Interestingly though when he came back to the future, we did not see his girlfriend (what he saved in episode 1). It would have both strengthened the time travel bit, and weakened our desire to se ehim to return. Seeing his Mum was very different.

Didn't he get dumped while in a coma a few weeks ago though?

I quite liked the weird balance between "it's just a gimmick to let us do Sweeney meets Modern Cop" and "no no it's a proper sci-fi show" - the very tenuousness made me more interested in the resolution.

There's a scene in East is East where when the potential arranged marriage wives arrive from Bradford, the young kid in the parka shouts 'the pakis are here'. I watched it in an art house cinema, and what struck me was how much people enjoyed that line. Because a young asian kid said it, it gave them the space to really enjoy seeing someone say 'paki'.

I get the same sense with Gene Hunt, and I noticed how in the last few episodes, he basically became a walking version of the same idea - rolling off lots of good old-fashioned hate speech usually about gay men, allowing people to enjoy seeing these things said because, oh, we just can't get away with this nowadays, and more's the pity, as our Sam knew to the extent that he wanted to top himself at the awfulness of it all.

The more I think about it, I'm fucking annoyed that a series I really, really loved has ended being a shill for this shite.

Reminds me of when Arthur Fowler was going mad and watching Postman Pat on TV and how badly I wanted them to show Postman Pat at home with his feet up watching 'Stenders...only to see what Arthur was seeing, sit bolt upright looking very alarmed and then turning to camera.

This must be why Brookside invented its own fictional kids' tv show for use in the background.

interview with matthew graham about the ending and ashes to ashes; worth reading.

although:

1) "We’ve opened up the universe without breaking the logic": what logic?

2) "We’ve already coined Gene’s new catchphrase, which is, ‘Ray, fire up the Quattro!’"

oh, haud me fucking back :(

of course i'll watch it. but my expectations are low.

No, the paradox is that you've got a fictional show in which the protagonist watches every show except, it seems, his own. And neither does anybody he meets. Despite the fact it must exist because the other things he watches have referenced it, and it being a top rated show.

He didn't see his girlfriend because she left him in S2E06, the one where he saw her on ultrasound before she was born.

I've thought of another BNW parallel, John The Savage initially lives in New Mexico. There was an episode (S2E01?) that focussed very heavily on him having been to Mexico and how unlikely that was.

The stuff he imagines is from the future is coincidentally the same as ours, but there's no guarantee it's from the future of his 1973.

Yeah, Mister Monkey suggested that as well. I don't buy that explanation.

Didn't he get dumped while in a coma a few weeks ago though?

He did. Which is part of the reason it made sense for him not to hang around in the future.

My own theory is that the inability to feel the point of the brass fastener pressing into his finger was a manifestation of his tumour, which made him realise he had only a limited time left, and he decided to spend that limited time where people needed him and he felt he could really do some good. Yes, it felt good to him that he could get results in 1973, but I think what the meeting in the future was meant to imply was that his kind of policing was already firmly entrenched and he, as an individual, maybe didn't have as much to contribute to the effort and therefore could make a bigger difference by continuing to bring the modern style of policing to 1973 for however long he had left.

I think Boyler makes good point re Gene. but then i again i laughed at a clip of a Bernard Manning routine the other week (don't worry folks he was only mocking the Italians and the Spanish in this particular clip).

From grimly's link:

Matthew added: “It’s not supposed to be a searing indictment on modern society, but more a comment on Sam. He was clearly a deeply repressed human being – I don’t think 2006 or 2007 brought out the best in Sam Tyler.

“He was caught up in his emotional red tape. He couldn’t seem to do his job without feeling he needed to sign forms in triplicate.

“And clearly, when he went to sleep he wanted to be in a freer place, a place where his mother was a young, beautiful woman and his dad was his hero, and it was a world of fast cars – that was his liberation.

“So I think it was more about him personally than us trying to say, ‘It was all better then.’”

From BNW:

John becomes disillusioned by his mother's death, the use of the 'Soma' drug, the meaningless life of the Londoners, and by the terrible "twins"

John "The Savage" says he wants real danger, pain, and sin. He is unable to return to the reservation, and unable to accompany Bernard to an 'island'. He therefore attempts to isolate himself, and undergoes a strict regimen of self-torture to make himself worthy.

Because of the large amount of public attention he receives, he begins to despair from the nature of the Brave New World.

Finally, he commits suicide, and the "brave new world" wins him over.

This is looking ever more likely.

also now that Sam is free of the guilt he can start betting on sports results and become a millionaire, using his wealth and police connections to build a better world than the one he came from.

"Frank Morgan. That was also the name of the actor who played the title role in the Wizard of Oz film."

oh i missed that!

dave does make a good point, but i think does the writers disservice. if not some viewers.

i LOLLed hard at the string of namby-pamby, girly, poofy, etc from 2 weeks back myself.

(i meant to add) because it's ludicrous and piling it on is funny. not because i'm mad at PCGM

in the end Gene wasn't making me laugh much - probably the hype. but the way he was delivering the lines often seemed overdone to me. i still enjoyed watching him tho, the big ape.

Because a young asian kid said it, it gave them the space to really enjoy seeing someone say 'paki'.
Enjoy? That's such a small view of the world. You'd have to be hard-core racist to get enjoyment just from hearing it -- christ, do you think your fellow art-house viewers were all of a level on a par with 'hur hur hur he said boobies'?

I mean, ffs, Hunt's "You great... soft... sissy... girlie... nancy... French... bender... Man U supporting poof!!" had me falling off my chair, but because it was incredibly funny watching the Hunt character grapple with responding to a man talking about love, and because of the contrast with the expected softy response of every other telly character in similar situations. xpost

The enjoyment comes/humour arises from the confounded expectations, not the word itself.

I thought Gene Hunt was much more of a non-PC caricature in season 2 - there was a definite revelling in it, and more of a "stop the show while the cool character does his cool thing" problem (xpost as Steve M says above). One of the problems I had with Season 2 until the ending was that it was really hard to imagine why on earth Gene would tolerate Sam at all, especially given that there were several more "I am a lunatic" outbursts from ST this time.

(Of course if Sam is constantly tweaking his fantasy world that's entirely explicable)

But in Gene's case our expectations are not confounced, so for me on that basis it is not so funny just to have him acting bigoted. It IS funny however when he was actring bigoted but struggling to express himself properly, trying to find the right words etc.

(xpost)

Although in my favourite Gene Hunt moment he doesn't say anything at all -- just watching his face react as Sam goes off on one in the interview room when he finds out his girlfriend's mum is pregnant with his girlfriend is priceless

But in Gene's case our expectations are not confounced,
They were for me in the greatsoftynancy bit -- he'd paused just long enough for me to think Sam had finally gotten something through to him, and I was all set up for telly hugz

I agreee that in the first series Gene's statements and actions were more questionable than they were in series two. Although I like him as a character and find him compelling viewing, I'm not sure I like him. He's kind of like Tony Soprano in that way. I don't necessarily have to approve of everything he does in order to think he's great as a television character.

I loved it. I agree it was more a personal thing for Sam to want to be back there rather than a comment on society and I think it was all just Sam's version of 1973 in his head. No time travel, not mad. It reminded of the end of Brazil when despite Sam Lowry (name link?) being killed, it's sort of a happy ending as he ends up in his fantasies with the woman he loved which was where he was always happiest anyway.

Ha ha! There I was just wondering how I would get through the nights without Life on Mars, when my birthday Amazon package arrives from Glasgow with three Dr. Who adventures in it! Hooray!

Stet, I'm just reporting what I heard. The belly laughs were astonishing. Maybe Lancaster art-house cineastes were just Carry on freaks who let the side down.

Steve OTM just above; Gene's comedy value was in how he expressed himself by way of not being able to express himself at all really. But by the last two episodes, it was just 'lets push the boat out and have him use language, cos we can (cf Spastic in manget factory line). It's a cop out, to want to write that, to want to shout it, but to claim afterwards that you're just being in tune with the times. It's one thing to excuse people for their behaviour in a time when such attitudes were not as prevalent, but quite another to use such characters to regress to a place you don't feel able to go now for good reason.

(hur hur, COP out)

and I think it was all just Sam's version of 1973 in his head.

so that's his own personal afterlife/idea of 'heaven' then.

Stet, I'm just reporting what I heard. The belly laughs were astonishing. Maybe Lancaster art-house cineastes were just Carry on freaks who let the side down.
Fair enough, but the "enjoy" bit made it seem like you were saying they only laughed because they were racists.

I agree with you about the regression -- but both times he said stuff like that Sam immediately called him on it, quite vehemently when he was going on about mixed-race couples. There's a difference to my mind between a purely 1970s cop-show written today using such language (which would be indefensibly regressive and offensive) and using it in the context of a 2007 gaze.

it's not that easy tho is it dave, cos tho he comes out with intolerable language it IS flagged as such. it doesn't make it any more acceptable, but it holds it up to ridicule.

(xpost obv)

Its particularly a cop-out when the taboos which are being broken are not necessarily consistant with the times (the only real race issue we came up against was the immigration one). But this then becomes sublimated within Sam's subconscious, which is potentially a clever metaphor ont he tensions within the modern character in as much as he feels 100% comfortable with race, but still has big time problems with women and homosexuality (and criminal proceedure). It allows the writers to have their cake and eat it.

From a second perspective, if Tyler knows it is all in his head now, to what extent can he control it. When he "came back" did he have that gun before. Morgan vanished, and the dynamic was back to normal. Is he starting to lucidly dream?

The link with the (studio?) ending of Brazil is a good call!

Sam jumped off a tall building so should've died straight away/shouldn't even have heard Frank's voice on the radio at the end?

We didn't see him land!

so that's his own personal afterlife/idea of 'heaven' then.

I think so, it's his happy place. Or at least that's what it became for him. And he had to kill himself as it was his only way back there.

And if it's all in his head it explains why there were so many 70's police show cliche's and attitudes and kids tv bits and the test card girl wandering about. All his memories from that time are selective and based on broad brush strokes and what he can remember from TV. As a wee boy at that time he wouldn't have really remembered what it was actually like so he's constructed it from the stuff swilling about in his brain whilst he's in the coma.

The link with the (studio?) ending of Brazil is a good call!

No, the studio ending he actually does go off with the girl, the Gilliam ending he gets killed/lobotomized by Palin but as far as I remember ends up flying above the clouds as the winged knight of his dreams and ends up with the girl but only in his head. So he's dead but in a sense it's still a happy ending (though clearly the studio didn't see the happiness in the main character dying at the end)

From the above link:
“To be honest with you, I was always slightly surprised that people thought there was a genuine mystery. To me, it was very obvious – he got hit by a car, the doctors and nurses were speaking to him over the radio and through the television and he was in a coma.

“The fact is that he just began to suspect that there seemed to be a way in which he could change his world and so, obviously, naturally once he’s there for quite a period of time, he begins to assimilate so much of that world into himself. He starts to question whether he was ever anywhere else.

“There was always a bit of that, but I never thought the audience would fall for that. And it was brilliant when they did, the first time around. But then we realised we had to start being a little bit more careful about saying definitively, on the record, that he was in a coma.

“We realised that that mystery was one of the things that gave the show some spice. So then we just kept that going."

I'd been furrowing my brow and saying 'but surely... he is just in a coma' throughout and then allowed the hype stuff to make me think that actually no, this was something even better and amazing but that would still somehow work logically with all the stuff. And then I watched the last episode for about 10 mins and got cross because oh, he was in a coma, like they'd been saying all along. Good ending, although the amnesia bollocks totally annoyed me because they didn't even attempt to make that a plausible alternative explanation because it didn't work.

“To be honest with you, I was always slightly surprised that people thought there was a genuine mystery. To me, it was very obvious – he got hit by a car, the doctors and nurses were speaking to him over the radio and through the television and he was in a coma."

Oh aye, that'll be why THE VERY FIRST EPISODE has a doctor character in the real world appear in the 1973 world as a friend of Annie's. Absolutely no attempt there at all to misdirect the public or make them think there was any doubt. None at all. Prick.

I've just thought - we never see the outside of Sam's police station in 2006 in Episode 1, do we? Just in S2E08? You know, if you really didn't want to encourage the public to think there was a mystery you could have shown it then, so we would know he hadn't been "transferred" to the place where he ALREADY WORKED.

Honestly, anybody would think Matthew Grahm just wanted to laugh at the public for being thicker than him.

(let's see if this works...)
http://furry.org.au/Drhoz/new/dredd/moore005.jpg

Is that Redondo on art?

tick vg

He always had really soft, sensual art, Redondo - they used to put him on the most ridiculously inappropriate stories.

SORRY BACK TO LIFE ON MARS.

I thought he never woke up. I thought that he was in a coma the whole time and they were performing the operation on him but the 'waking up' back in 2007 was all in his head - a kind of vision of what life would be like if he woke up, but it wasn't real (which is why he couldn't feel it when he cut his hand). He didn't like it much and so jumped off the building - but I thought this was just symbolic of him giving up the struggle and deciding to stay in his coma forever (although forever might not have been for much longer given the "we're losing him" bit of hospital dialogue on the radio at the end).

If LoM series 1 hadn't been a ratings hit, do you think they'd have gone with a different ending there - his father shooting him/him shooting his father and that being the psychological trigger to wake/something else? For all Matthew Graham is saying "oh that's the ending we planned all along" I got the feeling the first season was potentially building to a different conclusion, one which made more sense in terms of there being "a reason" he was stuck in '1973'.

Yeah definitely. The ending of the first series didn't really fit - it seemed like an alternative ending that they'd shot just in case they got the go ahead to do a second series.

I've just thought - we never see the outside of Sam's police station in 2006 in Episode 1, do we?

I re-watched S1E1 recently, and I'm pretty sure it's shown near the start.

i agree with Groke. s1 ending also sort of disappointing on the basis! (big build up to...something ultimately inconsequential)

LoM series 1 hadn't been a ratings hit, do you think they'd have gone with a different ending there - his father shooting him/him shooting his father and that being the psychological trigger to wake/something else? For all Matthew Graham is saying "oh that's the ending we planned all along" I got the feeling the first season was potentially building to a different conclusion, one which made more sense in terms of there being "a reason" he was stuck in '1973'

Yeah, I think we sort of said that at the time. This programme definitely suffered from being an unexpected ratings hit.

I don't really get it. The way the show was written and the nature of it, they surely had more than one series in mind. It surely wasn't intended as just a one-off BBC 2 drama like, say, Holding On (can't think of more recent well known examples!), albeit much more light-hearted and fantasy-based.

except where explictly asked for a long running show/soap, i don't think telly writers work that way very often. they come up with a premise and sketch out a few ideas about how it might sustain itself for a series or two.

the mechanics of the resolution here in final ep do seem to be mostly about how do we keep the Further Adventures of Gene Hunt going.

"what's really going on" is interesting to talk about when coming up with story ideas, but i bet at the end of the day, they just go "that's a great idea! ... now how can we pass it off on the nerdy fans". i get this feeling with lots of shows. Not so much with Lost actually - more BSG, 24 etc.

ha ha, you really don't get it with Lost?! perhaps you're right. BSG is totally an soap :)

srsly, i don't get the 'they're just making it up as they go along' vibe quite so much. obv there's some improvisation along the way, and that leads to unfortunate fan fascination with incidental 'coooool' stuff thrown in along the way (TEH NUMBERS) , but i do get the feeling of some proper story laid out more that other shows.

BSG is so heading for an end, therefore not a soap. but the feeling of the balance of plotted out v made up scat-plot seems to fall at the other end (improv).

See, I like it when the network says 'next season is your last season, make it a good one' and the programme gets to come to some sort of conclusion. I hate it when they just yank things in the middle of a run. All my characters from Boston Public, what happened to them?

Anyway, to tie it to Life on Mars, I definitely got the feel from the second series that they were trying to give it more weirdo depth because that's what sells at the moment in the U.S., and they are always working with one eye on the U.S. market these days.

Wait, so SIM gets a Bafta nomination for moping about, frowning and whining, while Glenister gets nowt? Fuck dat

Actually, at the moment RTD's Doctor Who is having the opposite problem with referencing things from the present day, that they introduce paradoxes that can't resolved. For example, somebody has been referred to as a Del Boy, which means Only Fools And Horses exists in the NuWho universe. In return, OFAH has referred to Doctor Who so the Doctor Who TV show exists in the OFAH universe, which means the Doctor Who TV show also exists in the NuWho universe. But that's probably for the Who thread...

The version of OFAH in the Whoniverse is exactly the same as the one that exists in ours except with no Dr. Who references, and vise-versa. Simple.

The stuff he imagines is from the future is coincidentally the same as ours, but there's no guarantee it's from the future of his 1973. Yes, that's bollocks, but it's no more untidy than the ending shown and is probably an easier Maguffin to swallow.

Aye, I read that theory somewhere else somewhere running alongside one that, um, this has something to do with "he's in the best-selling show" lyrics and why the Test Card Girl turned the telly off for us at the end - basically we've been watching a 2006/7 universe created by Sam Tyler/Williams in his mind which is full of cliches of our time much like we think Sam's 1973 universe is full of cliches also. I think this is, by and large, bollocks, but I thought I'd share it with the class.

And if it's all in his head it explains why there were so many 70's police show cliche's and attitudes and kids tv bits and the test card girl wandering about. All his memories from that time are selective and based on broad brush strokes and what he can remember from TV. As a wee boy at that time he wouldn't have really remembered what it was actually like so he's constructed it from the stuff swilling about in his brain whilst he's in the coma.

I said that a while ago, but no longer believe it to be the truth. I thought that the weirdiness (Gene's singing lawyer) and laying-it-on-ever-thicker with the 70s cliches and gratuitous Gene-isms was Sam's mental state deteriorating in 2006/7 and inventing an even more confused version of "1973", but I think now it was just shit writing.

Er, ok, so I know this died yesterday, but I only got to watch this last night. Did anyone think that he possibly never woke up from his coma at all? I.e. bit back in the present was him wrestling in his own mind as to whether he wanted to *really* wake up? That way, jumping off the building does not equal real death, just a mental state transition.

I could just be talking cobblers again, though, obv..

sounds like some vanilla sky shit.

Thanks.

Pete, somebody did suggest that, up above. Nasty, brutish, and short. I'm coming around to quite liking that theory.

Is it true they're planning a new series, based around Gene Hunt, set in 1981, with a female lead character in place of John Simm?

yep. gene hunt is a bit overrated.

i am a bit understated.

PeteR - this is what I posted yesterday I thought he never woke up. I thought that he was in a coma the whole time and they were performing the operation on him but the 'waking up' back in 2007 was all in his head - a kind of vision of what life would be like if he woke up, but it wasn't real (which is why he couldn't feel it when he cut his hand). He didn't like it much and so jumped off the building - but I thought this was just symbolic of him giving up the struggle and deciding to stay in his coma forever (although forever might not have been for much longer given the "we're losing him" bit of hospital dialogue on the radio at the end).

Sorry - missed that. I think that's the only thing that makes sense of everything. Also: hospital dialogue at end I thought may have indicated that he regressed from some kind of coma from which they were hopeful he may recover from to some kind of coma from which he wasn't going to return. Caveat: this may make little or no medical sense.

Will read better before posting in future.

Will read better before posting in future.

You can post in the future? Are you in a coma or are we in your imagination?

Both.

Actually, that said, I will probably not be able to post in the future. Tomorrow=the last day of me working my notice and hence having nothing to do. I shall have to make do with lurking, and shouting incoherently at computer screens that I need to destroy my new boss and his whole rotten unit so I can come back to ILX. Jesus, I hope he's not reading this.

That's a shame. Which David Bowie song will your new life be named after?

"The Laughing Gnome"

I did not see that one coming.

xx-post Very nice of you, accentmonkey :x Still work, innit, so I'll go for "Friday on My Mind" ;) Besides, I'm too tall to be a gnome. And I never ever laugh.

Hang on, if the 2006/7 waking-up at the end was all part of the coma, how did he make the tapes and notes for Alex Drake to find in Ashes to Ashes?

(does anyone else have the fear that Alex Drake is going to be played by Tamzin Outhwaite?)

As long as it's not Billie Piper, with a side of Marc Warren, I'll be okay with it.

I've seen the last episode twice now, and found it more emotional the second time around. I didn't like the jumping off the roof bit - I understand that his coma'd brain needed to make the deliberate decision to die rather than continue to live, but I just wish he hadn't committed suicide like that. After all, there's no guarantee that a person can choose where they end up when they kill themselves - how coud he have been so sure he'd return to the train tunnel at the precise moment to save everyone? And also, when he'd contemplated jumping off a bridge in Episode 1, Annie had stopped him from killing himself by saying that "we don't do things like that, because we're not cowards". So was he a coward in the end, after all?

I don't believe he ever awoke from his coma, and that being back in 2006 was still part of his made-up world. It felt right that he should choose to stay in '73.

I'm really going to miss this series.

Brain surgery and he doesn't have his head shaved?

it's in Simm's contract that his hair must always be the same whatever he's in.

Yeah, I thought that about the head-shaving thing too :)

Maybe he's bald, and wears a wig in bed.

Brain surgery and he doesn't have his head shaved?

They could have gone in through the nose.

Hi, been away, watched it on my nice DVDr machine which workd perfectly and the timer is exact! Amazing.

I thought "Brazil" too. Surprised no-one's mentioned "Brigadoon"

I did think there may be a mental end episode a la "Prisoner" but I'm glad there wasn't.

I thought that the weirdiness (Gene's singing lawyer) and laying-it-on-ever-thicker with the 70s cliches and gratuitous Gene-isms was Sam's mental state deteriorating in 2006/7 and inventing an even more confused version of "1973", but I think now it was just shit writing.

No, I thought the former and still do. It made it easier for Simm to side with Frank until the shock of the shootout and the 'rescue' by Frank. I hadn't thought of the 'never actually woke up' part. It makes a lot of sense, but it's conjecture I guess as it wasn't stated as such.

I vote the ending as near perfect for me.

Oh, and I'm also not holding out much hope for "Ashes to Ashes" but who knows...

I think Ashes To Ashes will be better.

This has probably been talked about already, but a director client of ours has made a film with Simm & Glenister in the leads: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6666765.stm