"are you annoyed at me"

Hahahah I did the above to my bf this last weekend, oops.

I've been a bit of a cow lately, I dont know whats gotten into me.

if you decide you want to speak to me today let me know

this is now my new opening gambit in this situation.

It's not a bad one.

xxpost Apparently it's because I'm a Scorpio I can get SUPER annoyed at little things. I thought it was just my thing, y'know.

"you seem stressed"

"i do?"

"yeah"

"i don't feel stressed"

"well i think you are"

"..."

I have never heard my parents have one single exchange like any of these, so I'm constantly in awe that this is normal couples conversation for anyone. How do you stop these things from becoming a real fight as the annoyance and fucked-off-ness escalates??

* go to another room
* take a walk
*change the subject
*compliment the other person on their hair, clothes, etc
*do something nice for the other person

you can't, it's always the prelude to fisticuffs

que's list:

1 & 2 are fairly passive aggressive, 3 is temporary at best, 4 & 5 are likely to be met with the same blithe indifference (as well as being far too close to unconditional surrender tbh).

i'm just brainstorming

just trying to point out that there are ways to change the tone without, you know, starting an argument

Huh. Any kind of confrontation ends in tears for me; I gots no script for anger and it goes right to my head. I always say I'll try being more annoying and argumentative, but then I don't because it seems so risky to the status quo. Impressed by the v capable bickering I see here!

How do you not worry that if you are disagreeable, your partner won't like you anymore and/or will leave you, or even worse, raise the ante to something you can't/don't want to deal with? Does bickering only work or work best if there's a tacit agreement to stay on safe ground?

i'm just brainstorming

yeah, totally, i respect that and appreciate that no idea is a bad idea. i'm the negative guy in meetings, btw.

How do you not worry that if you are disagreeable, your partner won't like you anymore and/or will leave you, or even worse, raise the ante to something you can't/don't want to deal with? Does bickering only work or work best if there's a tacit agreement to stay on safe ground?

all good questions. i think it's accepted that if you can't get over a little bickering once in a while then either bickering or the SO aren't for you. but yeah, i'd engage in fairly low-level stuff with my gf and it seems to be tacitly agreed that (i) it stays low level and (ii) good humour has to be close to the surface at all times. otherwise, i think you've strayed into 'fighting'.

this is my kind of bickering
happens on a regular basis

usually spell is broken by asking an actual question (do you know where the (x) is?), making a joke/poking fun or leaving alone of annoyed person. it rarely escalates into taxonomy of petty grievances because that gets ugly.

also everything passes after a while. best not to get ugly.

bringing them hot chocolate is the absolute #1 way of breaking spell.

"you seem stressed"

"yes i am can i have a blowjob?"

"ok"

problem solved

Like I'mma hand anything made with boiling water to my wife when she's pissed off with me.

How I wish I'd added an "xpost" there.

ngggngnnhh bad thoughts.

ps making ur pissed off wife hot chocolate with boiling water = ur doin it rong

gotta be 100% dairy, with nutmeg & possibly marshmallows if there's football on.

Boiling milk, that scalds the eyes less does it?

I always say I'll try being more annoying and argumentative, but then I don't because it seems so risky to the status quo.
honestly being more argumentative isn't going to help here; being more tolerant of other people's constantly shifting moods that have nothing to do with relationship/you is v useful though.

I like the idea of companionable crankiness, but in practice I think it's too close to actual grievances -- ie if I'm going to be disagreeable, everything is going to come out together. Or maybe I'm not confident of my ability to hold back from hitting the other person's known fears & weaknesses? No doubt indicative of about 90,985 other personal problems.

You know, I know it's totally crazy but I'm pretty much in tears just talking about it? I think I should do some work and stop overthinking things on the internet.

xp Amanda, everything is about me! Or even if not, it will be my job to fix it and meet the needs of everyone I care about. :)

being more tolerant of other people's constantly shifting moods that have nothing to do with relationship/you is v useful though

unless you want them to consider stopping this, or at least taking it out on you?

Boiling milk, that scalds the eyes less does it?

she won't throw it away if it's full fat, proven fact.

oh laurelita
i will give you some bickering strength training if you want
i'm reeeeally good at it!

Or maybe I'm not confident of my ability to hold back from hitting the other person's known fears & weaknesses

yeah, this is yellow card bickering behaviour, it's like going near testicles when play fighting

In my case, asking "Is everything okay?" or "Are you stressed?" is usually less confrontational shorthand for "You are being snippy/non-responsive/monosyllabic/distant/withdrawn and that is kind of making my evening suck, so could you at least tell me what is going on with you so I know whether I need to start apologizing profusely for fucking something up or just give you space or what?"

Sample answers that do not lead to further conflict can include:

I'm a little stressed about X thing that is not you and I need some space right now.
I'm okay, I am just really tired and need a little quiet time right now.
I am focusing on something else, and I will be finished with this other thing in X amount of time, and will be with you shortly.
Nothing is wrong and I'm not stressed. I did not realize I was being snippy/distant/non-responsive. Let's watch TV/eat dinner/make out!

When I start this kind of bullshit I can usually tell after the bickering starts whether she was really annoyed to begin with, based on whether she escalates things or just rolls her eyes at my silliness. The problem is that this just confirms that it's a useful method to figure out what's going on.

Of course if the problem IS me or something I did, there is usually some further conflict, but at least then it's out in the open and I can apologize profusely/fix whatever I fucked up/explain or defend myself, etc.

In my case, asking "Is everything okay?" or "Are you stressed?" is usually less confrontational shorthand for "You are being snippy/non-responsive/monosyllabic/distant/withdrawn and that is kind of making my evening suck, so could you at least tell me what is going on with you so I know whether I need to start apologizing profusely for fucking something up or just give you space or what?"

it's generally a sliding scale from A to B with me. more a reflection on me than her i think.

I would like to know why it's so fucking hard for any partner, not talking specifically women or men here, to say "I'm processing some shit, don't want to talk about it right now, based on past history I'll probably be ready to talk about it in ___ days but don't hold me to that number. In the meantime, I'm not going to blow up the relationship, but I'm also not going to be super cheerful. What's for lunch?"

― Hugh Manatee (WmC), Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:31 PM (4 weeks ago)

in other words, Jenny OTM

Then is the other person not on eggshells for (x) days while you think about it, and does that not cause THEM crankiness and resentment and everyone gets defensive? Perhaps I have only been in relationships with people who are as bad at this as I am.

jenny extremely otm

Of course if the problem IS me or something I did, there is usually some further conflict, but at least then it's out in the open and I can apologize profusely/fix whatever I fucked up/explain or defend myself, etc.
these are the ones that usually come with a sinking feeling of dread, when i know that it WAS me, but at least it's out in the open instead of festering for 40 yrs like my parents' grievances.

Then is the other person not on eggshells for (x) days while you think about it, and does that not cause THEM crankiness and resentment and everyone gets defensive?

Not in my (very limited) experience.

Perhaps I have only been in relationships with people who are as bad at this as I am.

Er, including my entire family.

am i to understand this isn't a regular thing for some people?
― negotiable, Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:35 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
it isn't for single people!
― Ronan, Saturday, April 28, 2007 3:38 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

so true...

xp - yeah, mine either. usually it fades, actually, and the person's silly "i'm going to be in a bad mood for three days" becomes more like a few hours.

Then is the other person not on eggshells for (x) days while you think about it, and does that not cause THEM crankiness and resentment and everyone gets defensive? Perhaps I have only been in relationships with people who are as bad at this as I am.

You know, I think there is a difference in how this goes down based on longevity of the relationship. Jeff and I have been together for ten years and married for four, so when one or the other of us needs space for whatever, the other parter has learned that this is not a precursor for bolting for the door. Speaking for myself, this gives me the confidence/emotional fortitude to give Jeff some loving, respectful distance, and it has given me the experience to learn how to do this without totally ignoring my own mental health and happiness. So, not walking on eggshells, because I am basically incapable of doing so, but also being respectful of Jeff's wishes.

Of course, this doesn't always work out that way, and then there are fights and tears, etc., but most of the time we do pretty okay. It has also been my experience that requests for space rarely last more than a day, if even a day.

Or, what Amanda said.

i thought you said it better

we should be married

Jenny & Amands, I love you guys and I'm glad you're good at this stuff.

please please try to talk through shit as it comes up, so long as you can do so non-reactively. holding on to things just builds resentment. also, maintaining communication and talking through issues on a frequent basis is not a sign that anything is wrong, it is v important matter of EMOTIONAL HYGIENE. set boundaries, clarify intentions, make sure you are speaking the same language.

speaking the same language is U+K; most of the fights I've had in my relationship were entirely due to us reacting to the same words in totally different ways

i think it just takes some people a while to speak the same language/invent their own language for these situations. i've been living with my husband for 9 of the 10 years that we've been together (married almost 6) and this has definitely gotten better from those first few years.

also avoid nitpicking unless you are actually picking nits off of your partner

trusting each other not to be dicks helps.

Ha, Jeff and I had many, many awesome fights not about the actual words, but about tone.

oh christ

LOL

We're much better at that now.

please please try to talk through shit as it comes up, so long as you can do so non-reactively. holding on to things just builds resentment. also, maintaining communication and talking through issues on a frequent basis is not a sign that anything is wrong, it is v important matter of EMOTIONAL HYGIENE. set boundaries, clarify intentions, make sure you are speaking the same language.

There has to be a way to do this with less talking? It seems like the convivial bickering is shorthand for that, saying "Look, we know it's a thing, we're both kind of assholes, we aren't going to talk about it in great and personal detail because that's for hippies and people in therapy, and scoring points off each other on not-terribly-important matters is satisfying and enjoyable." I wish I could do that?

"Look, we know it's a thing, we're both kind of assholes, we aren't going to talk about it in great and personal detail because that's for hippies and people in therapy, and scoring points off each other on not-terribly-important matters is satisfying and enjoyable."

not messing, you really have nailed the basics i think.

we aren't going to talk about it in great and personal detail because that's for hippies and people in therapy
sweet mother of pearl
yes

my boyfriend and i do a lot of "processing," we're practically lesbians in that regard tbh

"Look, we know it's a thing, we're both kind of assholes, we aren't going to talk about it in great and personal detail because that's for hippies and people in therapy, and scoring points off each other on not-terribly-important matters is satisfying and enjoyable."

For people who like to do this, would saying the above in so many words risk taking the fun out of future zinging?

Ha, Jeff and I had many, many awesome fights not about the actual words, but about tone.

― she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, September 28, 2009 11:54 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

unquestionably the best kind of fight, basically a grown up version of accusing someone who says "im sorry" of "not meaning it"

xp oh, you absolutely can't acknowledge this, it spoils it.

laurel i think those are decent ground rules -- companionable bickering is pretty natural in many relationships but if your partner zings u and it really actually really hurts you gotta be frank and just say so!

or go post about it

I'm afraid I will be the zinger, tbh. I hold back b/c I'm not sure what will hurt too much, and then I get slapped w something that makes me really mad because I'm letting the other party get away with murder already (in my mind).

Right now I am struggling w someone (non-romantic) because the things that're bothering me & that I want to bicker about are going to undermine her confidence and be the exact issues she fears. Basically I think her fears are true and well-founded and could she please get her shit together before I lose my mind, and that takes them out of bickering territory.

is this person a friend or family member? that could make a huge difference.

I'm not one for convivial bickering, but I think it's a real bad idea to "zing" someone, whatever their relationship to you, about something that you seriously think is an issue. Usually those end up coming across less like "zings" and more like "STABS IN THE GUT."

Ugh, regretted that immediately.

it's hard. in your mind you think you're sort of, 'helping' by pointing out all these hometruths to the person, that it will set them on their way to becoming less annoying. but more often than not, it just tears a big hole in their confidence, because all that you hear if someone says those things to you is SEE LOOK HOW CRAP YOU ARE. Even if that's not what's meant by it. So it's a matter of how close the person is to you, and if you want them scampering away an possibly never talking to you again. Or getting REALLY freaking mad and sending some hometruths your way.

Been there, done that.

Actually the above pretty much describes my relationship with my Mum. Sometimes I just HAVE to tell her...and then she tells me back. Then one of us hangs up the phone. Then a week later we apologise and we go back to the beginning where we make small talk. It's not exactly healthy, but I figure actually getting it out is better than swallowing it.

also seeing the other person's shortcomings as his/her problem rather than a thorn in your butt would help frame the issue better.

"i find your low self esteem extremely aggravating" is not going to go over well, unless you want to hear something similarly leathery.

One of my girl friends phrases this as, "No blaming, even if you really want to poke them in the eye."

But there's never really a good way to frame a statement that says, in effect, 'This is what I don't like about you.'

"YOU ARE BAD AT LIFE"

i really should not be on this thread, but, lol relationships

I feel like a little bickering goes on in my current relationship but its pretty much all on my side - and this pisses me off, because I know I'm not at all a bickery/naggy person when *I'm with the right personality*. My last partner - we never ever bickered, fought, raised our voices, disagreed, or got upset at each other. We talked all the time - aimiably, enjoyably, as something we just liked doing.

My current partner is passive quiet and reserved - a lot quieter and less talkative than me. I'm not used to it and I find myself asking him whats the matter quite often simply because he will come home, sit down, and start doing something (interwebbing or whatever) without so much as a hello let alone a smile. Apparently thats just how he is though, and it's been difficult to "read" sometimes. sigh.

sounds like your boyf is a clone of my husband! :)
I am still figuring it out. I'm naturally talkative, I talk even when I don't need to...and hub will talk when there's *something to say*. Not a miser with words per se, but he doesn't waste them. I found myself for a long time trying to THINK of things to talk to him about, because it would be what felt like unnaturally quiet when we were driving, or whatever. But forcing him into conversation would be worse because he'd resent being made to talk, which would lead to a snarky answer, which would lead to...bickering. And I would get on his case about his tone of voice...but then it all came from him not talking in the force place, and me forcing him into it.

Bler. Anyway. There's no easy answer, I don't think I've found it yet. But I have found myself noticing people's tendency to talk away silence, and that being around my husband has taught me that it's kind of cool to be able to REALLY talk when important things come up, when things that are worth talking about actually happen, and that unlike my weird chatty coworkers I don't have to talk all the time to be happy.

But a quiet spy-like spouse takes a lot of getting used to. I don't know if it ever gets "easy"

"not talking in the force place" should read "not talking in the FIRST place"...lol

But you do find yourself questioning the 'healthiness' of your relationship by the simple fact that you're both not talking the day/evening away. You remember past relationships or see other couples who are totally chatty and you think 'Are we weird? Are we not right together? Why aren't we like that?" It's weird. Because I can't imagine being with anyone else more perfect for me.

Yeah you hit the nail on the head with all of that :)

and could have said it all in about 2 sentences. curse my longwindedness :)

Hahah. Its funny actually, I curse my mother for being such an endless blabbermouth, and yet I'm just as bad, haw.

My dad has been henpecked into silence by my, well, aggressive mother. I always thought me turning into my mum was pigs might fly stuff. It's incredibly difficult for a woman NOT to turn into her mother once you're married. Luckily Clay knows when I'm getting too big for my britches :)

he will come home, sit down, and start doing something (interwebbing or whatever) without so much as a hello let alone a smile

See, I don't think that's okay. It's not like he has to come in and stare raptly into your eyes while you recount the minutiae of your day, but I think it is completely reasonable to ask him to say hello to you when he comes in the door. Then he can sit on the computer and be quiet and whatever without you worrying if there is something wrong, because he did you the small respectful gesture of saying hello to you when he came home. It's win-win: you feel valued and acknowledged and he feels like he has space for himself.

OH, I'm making him sound terrible - he's not! Usually he will say hey and flop about going 'blargh work sucked' or randomly mention something that he saw/did. And we do talk! Hes just frequently quiet and I have to learn not to say "whats wrong? Whats wrong" whenever he goes silent for 5 minutes haha :/

This isn't really apropo of anything but I learned that onlookers don't always 'get' me and my husband. Anyone who knows us knows we are super tight and great mates, but...I learned a while back that a co-worker suspected that Mr Veg was abusive towards me! That was a whole lot of WTF. All because she observed us together at a work function and she saw that any time he was standing near me, or walked by me, that he would poke me. The thing is, that's what we do. If we haven't seen each other all day, or if we've been on opposite sides of the room, we give a little poke, like "Hey whats up I missed you." Or lean a shoulder in, or gently give a little kick, no big deal. Not like "GRR! YOU'RE SO ANNOYING! STOP DOING THAT THING i HATE THAT YOU DO." I was a little dismayed that someone would interpret us so wrongly. Then again she's a silly bint so it doesn't surprise me.

Haha if people had overseen me and my last bf N together they would have come away thinking we were both mildly retarded, I suspect.

Glad we're not under 24 hour surveillance. Onlookers would be like wtf is rong with these two.

I'm not one for convivial bickering, but I think it's a real bad idea to "zing" someone, whatever their relationship to you, about something that you seriously think is an issue. Usually those end up coming across less like "zings" and more like "STABS IN THE GUT."

This has been a problem I've had in relationships -- I generally fight to win, but winning in this case is a serious pyrrhic victory. It's been hard learning to pull punches.

Naw, Trayce, I don't think you made him sound terrible, or that it sounded like you don't talk! That's kind of a thing for me - say hello when you come in, say goodbye when you leave, etc., and it took me a few years to be able to articulate that I needed those little social fripperies and recognize how important they were to me. So in other words, I was projecting some there!

All good! And I should point out I totally <3 my guy loads, he's adorable and crazy talented... but as Sunny said once, lol musicians =)

xpost Sarahel: LOL. Learning to squash some of my "HA! SEE? IT *WAS* YOUR FAULT! IN YOUR FACE!!!" instinct is a very difficult lesson indeed.

and the: "Here's why I was right, for future reference" dissertation. Very difficult to quell.

especially if you've been in the habit of doing this for over half your life.

I feel you.

oh I cant bear to be right when I disagree with someone :/ Its a stupid thing, but even though I want to correct a person, I'll always immediately undermine it with "at least thats what I heard" or "I *think*... maybe I'm wrong!" because I hate it when I contradict someone I like/respect and they look at me like "aw what, you're patronising me!". Maybe its the tone in my voice.

My thing is I go into my "Ha! In Your Face" rant first, without even thinking...and then I have to find a way to stumble out of it once I realise that I'm being a total dick. I tend to back down if face with immediate and loud opposition though, since I don't like shouting matches. I like my own loud sermons, uninterrupted :)

xp - see, I have had to condition myself to feel this way ...I think I also sometimes have this confrontational or domineering tone of voice such that when I ask simple questions, it isn't interpreted as I intended, "What are you doing?" but rather, "What the fuck are you doing that for?"

I just initiated an argument about how voicemail is like electricity and running water and he should embrace the modern world and leave me a freaking message when he calls, because any other way lies irritation and hurt feelings. Namely, mine. He asked me to call him later so we can "discuss" it in more detail. Okay it wasn't much of an argument, it was more just me being annoying. But...baby steps, right?

good for you.

I can't date anyone I have to be nice to, because then I feel like I have to be nice all the time and it ruins things. Unfortunately I'm not sure I have the chops to deal w someone who is possibly a lot meaner than I am. But I'm trying.

the bf and I have been together almost 11 years, and have worked through a lot of things, though the constant challenge is that I'm a venter and he's a "bottler" -- in that there are times I'm completely unaware that I've been doing things to piss him off until he finally snaps, and the awareness is painful.

Really? Are you sorry when that happens? I mean, sorry that you've been doing those things? He must have a way of snapping that isn't too scary or destructive, or else obv you'd have a whole different reaction?

no he's not destructive or abusive (i had an ex that was), but I am sincerely sorry. Because he doesn't say anything at the time, I often assume that it doesn't bother him.

I'm a bottler. But I'm getting better at actually saying when something bugs me right away, than just storing it away. Hub is, well... I guess logical is the best way to describe him. If the argument veers of into the stratosphere by getting overly emotional about stuff that maybe doesn't matter as much as I think it does, he'll bring it back down to earth. Which I don't always love because sometimes I just want him to get upset too. But the thing is, he doesn't see that there's anything to respond to, because I'm being a) emotional b) irrational or c) some combination of the two. So I'm getting better at checking my tone before I 'start' something. But I grew up in a house where Mum just threw things at Dad if he didn't talk to her so it's been a difficult lesson to learn.