Obama: No Hand On Heart For National Anthem

comments thread 4 bonus lulz

http://www.oliverwillis.com/bushstomach.jpghttp://www.oliverwillis.com/bushstomach.jpg
http://www.oliverwillis.com/bushstomach.jpg

Are you pointing out the breast-clutching girl, stage left?

What is this 'United States Code' quoted at the top of the article?

Federal law. "Should" has no legal meaning, however.

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

§176. Respect for flag
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

intriguiging...

You can't bust a guy on a "should" -- this is pretty meaningless legislation.

Still, they are calling him on it. And ignoring everyone who has the flag "embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard".

It's insanely stupid to even present the appearance of indifference toward traditional displays of patriotism, though. WTF could he be thinking?

What the hell is "The flag" anyway. Is this some platonic ideal deal?

"The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."

Ohhh Kayyyy

The difference?
October 23, 2007 - 07:07 ET by ThisnThat
Osama? Obama? It's really getting hard to tell the difference, in so many ways.

Omaha will be next!

It begins

ledge OTM
stupid flags

lol obama makes the other kids look like tools

the other kids hate him

he always looked kinda french to me. or maybe french-iranian. don't you think?

next headline: "Obama had more sex in high school than everybody else"

"Obama drives a better car than you"

"Obama did all the drugs at all the parties and never got in trouble for it"

"Obama: ties laces in double knots"

do we want an over-cautious worry-wart like this as our commander-in-chief????

"Obama: forgot to say 'ma'm' when thanking his grandmother for coffee"

do we want somebody with no manners negotiating our arms treaties????

"Saw Hogan vs. Iron Shiek at '83 Wrestlemania, Failed to Chant "U.S.A.!" With Rest Of Crowd"

do we really want this stuck-up milquetoast to have the job of leading the greatest nation on earth in common purpose????

none of them are facing the flag either. unless theres another one off camera. v. possible.

when i first moved here (late 2004) i used to play a stupid game, because it was pretty weird to me to see so many flags around, where when i was driving through a residential neighbourhood id say "so, what country am i in again?" and then when i spotted a US flag id say 'ooooh right. america!". it was a fast game back then. these days its often a long time between question and answer. anti-patriotic symbolism backlash?? oh noes!

yeah thank god for those flags... otherwise i'd forget!

"Obama: once sold his house... FOR A PROFIT"

do we really want some sleazy operator like this running the world's greatest democracy????

"Obama: may not have given up smoking"

can we trust a word this man says???? do we want the Lincoln bedroom stained with nicotine???

"Obama: skinny"

If the flag isn't 'wearing apparel', isn't Obama technically right about the tie-pin thing? Impeach Bush!

"Obama: had a interesting childhood."

I'm just amazed there's a real site out there called NEWSBUSTERS

let's make a BLOGBUSTERS website
citizen journalism BACKLASSSSSHHHHH

BUSTER BUSTERS
http://z.about.com/d/tvcomedies/1/0/X/-/-/-/buster_bluth.jpg

"Obama: employs homophobic gospel singer"

The only argument being made that I can credit as logical and not batshit insane is "political leaders should follow all of the political hoo-haw, ergo Obama should have placed his hand over his heart". I think what people aren't realizing is that not doing so, yet still proclaiming yourself a patriotic member of this country, is a much braver, stronger political stance; it's still just as grandstanding but in a manner completely orthoganol to conventional wisdom on a subject that is ultimately trivial but still requires an amazing set of cajones to pull off. Obama's taking a very risky gamble here in that most people are not smart enough to realize what he's doing; they're going to fixate on the fact that he isn't honoring the flag rather than the fact that he's standing up against an ingrained tradition. I think the more interesting question is, "Is this the ditch you want to die in?" because I think that Obama has no interest in being President of a country that requires its leaders to place their hands over their hearts during the Star-Spangled Banner.

Thank you, HI DERE.

My point is it doesn't matter if he has the cojones - this is something that can't be pulled off. He will die in this ditch. It, frankly, is not a fight worth fighting.

"Is this the ditch you want to die in?"

Dan have you ever considered writing metal lyrics for a living

his hand be over his cojones, ja!

if he had stood with his hands behind him instead of in front, AKA at ease, it would be a nice gesture to the military, since we never put our hands over our hearts (it looks stupid).

Dan are you serious???

and if he spins it right obama could still turn it into a nice gesture to our all-volunteer cannon fodder by pointing out that said perfunctory gesture has been rendered completely and utterly meaningless by the disingenuous grandstanding of our sitting CinC and his terrifying disregard for life

whether anybody who doesn't already agree would understand that, though, is up for debate

whether anybody who doesn't already agree would understand that, though, is up for debate

this is the issue I'm afraid though, the people calling for "decorum" couldn't tell you what parade rest is if they had guns to their heads

those people would never have voted for a democrat either, though

There's no way to tell what the fuck is going on in that picture! Was the National Anthem (and/or Pledge of Allegiance - it's being reported as both in different places) just about to start? Did it just finish? What was even HAPPENING? We have a single Time photo caption to work with, providing vague context.

THIS is the level of scandal these champions are working at?

I mean if that is what Obama was thinking then I guess I agree with you. But I feel the odds are much better that nothing was calculated here at all, it's just something that happened, and the right wing is latching onto this feeble, tiny happenstance as some "key" or "clue" to an astonishing lack of patriotism etc etc, the way they have nickel-and-dimed every other major Dem candidate on pieces of inflated trivia since 1999. They do it enough and eventually one or two pieces get picked up on by "lifestyle" political pundits like Dowd and Matthews and these things become universally-acknowledged truths. Based on absolutely nothing at all.

Ben this is the level of scandal they have ALWAYS worked at

Oh my my
October 23, 2007 - 12:31 ET by James Brown Lord

what can one say except that Islam does not allow him to honor any thing above it.

(Tracer Hand OTM). That Vanity Fair story on the spread of the Al Gore 'facts' that helped kill his campaign was a horrifying read.

The biggest issue for obama to me is if the generation he's playing to and connecting with is going to bother to show up in primary voting. He'd still win the general election in a landslide, even moderate boomers are smart enough to know this story means all of jack shit.

I really doubt anybody under 40 who isn't brain damaged gives a fuck about this issue.

Ben this is the level of scandal they have ALWAYS worked at

Sure, but at least with the Swift Boat shit there were a handful of laughs at the utter psychosis on display! (Then, granted, crushing depression at the realization that this shit actually works on people)

Al Gore's campaign didn't get killed, though. He won.

"issue"

Right, no, sure...

I'm sorry Ben are you talking about some other election?

Well it got killed enough so that the Republicans could steal it. Close enough.

No! You're absolutely right, he did win!

The article in question was just dissecting how this snowballing happens, with a pretty detailed timeline of how long it took for people to instantly think "said he invented the internet" / "said he was the basis for 'Love Story'" / etc. when Al Gore's name came up.

Which is all stuff, I'm sure you'll agree, that kind of boned him (even though he won).

(x-post)

I think dems also get boned by nominating stiffs, which is another reason I'm not rooting for hillary, thinking about it

everyone outside the US wonders how you keep on voting in the bad guys.

they don't win

Electoral College LOLOLOLOLOL

Okay, I thought that "homophobic gospel singer" thing was a joke, ha ha, but apparently it was in the NYT and WashPost?? Seriously? This is news?

obama tongue kissed paris hilton at a party

"everyone outside the US wonders how you keep on voting in the bad guys."

tell them the two main (only) parties keep putting up shitheads who have to pander to their "base" during primaries, then look like fools trying to go back to the center during the general election.

he is the father of all britney's babies

^^^ amazing insight A+

um xpost i think

Tracer, this is a total non-issue that is being turned into the "issue" I described in my post.

waht's ted olsen getting ready to pull out of his coat there?

http://www.oliverwillis.com/bushstomach.jpg

this is so great only laura bush and the little girl can do it right

actually little girl not so much

Did these people go to elementary school in the US? You put your hand on your heart for the Pledge of Allegiance, you just stand at attention for the national anthem. Amateurs.

waht's ted olsen getting ready to pull out of his coat there?

a banner that says "if you recognize me you know too much politics lol"

tomdaschle_photoshop.jpg</2002>

GWB Shock Revelation: Patriotism Gives Me Indigestion!

Read more inside this week's TIME Magazine.

Also "I'm Glad I Didn't Win, and My New Diet has Changed My Life!"- Relaxing at Home with John Kerry

"Obama: lifelong Yankee fan now rooting for Red Sox in World Series."

Yeah I don't think I've ever put my hand over my heart for the national anthem. Although at baseball games I have taken off my hat and I guess the "natural" (!) thing to do with a hat is put it over your heart. What a weird custom.

Obama- NEVER believed that it wasn't butter

well I mean you're not going to shove the hat in your back pocket or stuff it down the front of your pants

obama: owns no hats

you could put it on your shoulder

I was once tricked into putting my hand over my heart to Chad Kroger's "Hero" at a motorcycle competition.

haha its true!

You could put your hat on the head of the person in front of you.

This will be on your test, sunny.

I've sang the National Anthem at sporting events before, and you sure as hell don't put your hand over your heart when you perform it.

do not answer Chad Kroger's "Hero" to "what is the national anthem?". got it.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/images/20040406_national-anthem-515h.jpg

Gah, that's worse than the moran guy.

There's a little known section of the US Code that says if you are a retard and wearing an item of the St. Louis Cardinal uniform, you must cover up the team name during the playing of "Take Me Out to the Ballgame".

http://tigerfan.mlblogs.com/photos/tigers_vs_mets_6807/whatssofunny.jpg

DURRR

The true American achieves erection and then hoists the hat for the duration of the anthem

little dicks, take note: ten gallon hats are the new sportscars

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040122-5.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/15/Kylie-Minogue-Hand-On-Your-Heart-Vinyl.jpg/200px-Kylie-Minogue-Hand-On-Your-Heart-Vinyl.jpg

actually, bush is pretty funny there.

i wonder what bush ate in STL

toasted ravioli

What are foreigners supposed to do when the anthem is played?

stand

http://www.royal.gov.uk/files/images/Insight_Nov03_Gallery_Heart_Large.jpg

generally stand with arms behind back for other national anthems.

was once tricked into putting my hand over my heart to Chad Kroger's "Hero" at a motorcycle competition.

-- Pleasant Plains, 24 October 2007 15:19 (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

"tricked" or "caught"?

President's Remarks to the Press Pool
Nothin' Fancy Cafe
Roswell, New Mexico

11:25 A.M. MST

THE PRESIDENT: I need some ribs.

I love this. Does everything he says get published? Your country is so sweet.

Next on Bush's agenda: have pants properly tailored. Gaaaahh.

yeah, nice breaks there, bushie

last time I turned my back for the anthem, so vote for me.

I might be overly British about this, but I've always thought that (like racism and religious belief) patriotism is a mindset that should only be entertained in the privacy of a person's own head...

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber

A redcoat?

I might be overly British about this, but I've always thought that (like racism and religious belief) patriotism is a mindset that should only be entertained in the privacy of a person's own head...

our (majority) culture doesn't have the same sense of reserve

geez stone monkey. you act like you dont have anything to prove with that attitude.

yeah don't Brits stand for their National Anthem?

Not if I can bloody help it!

http://www.link2content.co.uk/leadimages/gordon%20brown2(1).jpg

"So that's what British is? Thanks a bunch, Stone Monkey"

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber

who do i thank for not being able to speak as gaeilge except at a three year old's level? the same soldier??

No, his barber.

i should probably blame my own lazy academic application at school. ah well.

i bet obama can speak fluent irish.

don't Brits stand for their National Anthem?

One of my most (genuinely) thrilling experiences was the torrent of booing that greeted God Save the Queen at Hampden last time England and Scotland played there. Hearing your own national anthem treated with such vitriol is pretty amazing.

(all threads end up discussing Scottish football eventually)

Wow Scots booing the British National Anthem. How surprising.

It was a surprise. Alan Green was going apoplectic about it during the commentary. Scotland used to have it played before every own game until about the mid-nineties, and I don't recall it getting trashed then.

Maybe Obama should try a similar tactic?

I never understood the playing of National Anthems before sporting events anyway. It doesn't necessarily bother me (and I would never boo anyone's)but I don't see the point.

to emphasize the anti-revolutionary opiate nature of sport-spectating?

need for lowest-common-denominator tip of the, er, hat to grant some sort of significance to hours of idle entertainment?

guilty affirmation that there are greater affiliations than team?

i wonder when that custom came into being. seems similar to the strange history of the pledge of allegiance in schools

now i'm trying to think of a time when i hear the national anthem NOT at a sporting event.

haha brits having short memories shocker.

anyone who has heard the bob dylan 1966 album knows what i mean.

um or seen the newspapers from the last few weeks as out boys took on the hated french and won.

I remember a Bush/Blair press conference at the white house a couple of years ago. They'd seated all the British journalists on the left and the Americans on the right. As Bush and Blair emerged and walked down that corridor the American journalists immediately stood up and waited for them to arrive at their podium and say "thank you". The British journalists stayed seated and barely stopped chatting to their colleague sat behind them while throwing an arm over the empty chair next to them.

Also, I got shouted at by a drunk dude in the bleachers at a Giants game for not taking my hat off for the US national anthem. I explained that I was British and he was like, oh, cool and didn't mind. I then explained that I was drunker than him and we became firm friends. Good times.

Y'all know that they're still praying before high school football games, don't ya?

Maybe we should pray before WDYLL threads?

I got shouted at by a drunk dude in the bleachers for not taking my hat off

God, I hate that - aggressive assholes taking it upon themselves to uphold protocol. A thug outside Wembley shouting down a group of singing-and-dancing Brazilian girls so that everyone could queue for the tube in silence. That's what Barack Obama faces EVERYDAY.

Y'all know that they're still praying before high school football games, don't ya?

-- Pleasant Plains, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 16:47

For real. I started some shit back in high school because I took issue with it. My car was egged & keyed, and there was a punctured football (?!) left on my doorstep.

haterz hate a hater

If Obama can't support his forearm, cocked at a certain angle and placed over his heart, then how will he support our troops?

BIG CAJONES aka the libertarian

xp NAILED IT

US anthem was not played at every pro baseball game til World War II.

"Y'all know that they're still praying before high school football games, don't ya?"

I've never seen or heard about this. But then again, I live in the godless Northeast.

I know this is late in the thread, but here are my two cents.

The purpose of this story is simple. It is to help confirm that Obama is a demon, for those who already believe he is a demon and are open to any 'proof' that their conclusions about him are correct. This just keeps the base fed and happy.

As a bonus, if enough of these stories can be ginned up during the course of a campaign it can create a fog around Obama that suggests he is untrustworthy and might, through repetition, begin to instill doubts among the undecided and suggestible.

No matter how stupid and trivial these stories are, operatives know that they are never meaningless and always worth floating into the public space. Even if Obama wins, they've laid the groundwork for undercutting his power, or maintaining their own. It never stops.

Isn't it just the teams that pray, in the locker room before the game?

haha remember after the dem convention speech where he made his name some evangelicals were like "wow great speech, what charisma...must be the antichrist!" xp

Romney lolz:

Mr. Romney was talking about global trade, rolling out a new PowerPoint presentation before the Chamber of Commerce here at 9 a.m. in which he called for the United States to combine free trade agreements it has with other countries around the world into what he called the “Reagan Zone of Economic Freedom.”

But he paused to talk about the threat of terrorism, taking John Edwards, one of his Democratic opponents, to task for comments he made that labeled the “global war on terror” a “bumper sticker” for President Bush.

“I think that is a position which is not consistent with the fact,” Mr. Romney said. “Actually, just look at what Osam, uh, Barack Obama, said just yesterday, Barack Obama, calling on radicals, jihadists of all different types, to come together in Iraq. ‘That is the battlefield. That is the central place,’ he said. ‘Come join us under one banner.’”

so sleazy

The foreigner-baiting of Obama has been amazing to watch and will only get amazinger.

(P.S. Only REAL 1st-generation Americans pass up opportunities to demonstrate in public that no, really, they are very, very fond of the American flag.)

Isn't it just the teams that pray, in the locker room before the game?

I'm talkin' Public Address Announcer, asking everyone to bow their heads and pray that no one gets hurt, to hell with the Supreme Court.

NOTE: The original version of this item, based on a reader submission, stated that the photo was apparently taken during the Pledge of Allegiance. I've now located the original "Time" image, whose caption states that it was taken during the National Anthem.

WHOOPS

also, the little girl is the only one doing it RIGHT in that first picture.

No one has considered the possibility that Obama is holding a microphone in his hands and preparing to SING.

Already legendary in the Chicagoland area as a karaoke showman. Has pledged, if elected, to create a Mariah Carey Room in the White House.

wtf. is this for lolz or r the merkins totally crazy?

I would marry Obama if he weren't married & I weren't wearing this promise ring.

13-year-old in pink appears to be doing some creepy charismatic "come Holy Spirit" shit. Many Americans are weird.

"I'm talkin' Public Address Announcer, asking everyone to bow their heads and pray that no one gets hurt, to hell with the Supreme Court."

I'll again repeat that I've never seen this before, I played football through college and currently coach as a volunteer, and I have never seen a prayer at any level over the PA.

She's just feeling her incipient boobs. "Someday, Simba, this will all be yours."

xp

Mr. Obama’s campaign was not amused. “Apparently, Mitt Romney can switch names just as casually as he switches positions,” said Bill Burton, a spokesman for Mr. Obama.

slice

i'm late to this thread and not sure if this is really SERIOUS in any sense, but anyway:

obama is not my first choice -- he isn't even in my top 3 and never has been, to be honest (in fact, i'd prefer hillary to him though she isn't my first choice either) -- but "attacks" like these (and the dumbass-beyond-dumbass "osama" shit-talking) make me much more sympathetic to him.

that's all.

I'll again repeat that I've never seen this before, I played football through college and currently coach as a volunteer, and I have never seen a prayer at any level over the PA.

Talking Bible Belt here.

you guys know that there's an invocation before each nascar race, frequently name-checking jesus christ, and broadcast on national television, right?

Yeah, I'm disgusted but totes unsurprised when public/civic/academic/professional gatherings of any kind are opened with prayers. I vaguely recall being at something recently that I was horrified got prayed over, maybe it was a business affair...? So inappropriate.

Nascar is not a function of the country's government-run education system. They can do whatever they want.

Nascar is not a function of the country's government-run education system.

SEZ YOU

No matter how stupid and trivial these stories are, operatives know that they are never meaningless and always worth floating into the public space.

this is pretty OTM. if he hadn't made the flag comment, there wouldn't be any sense to floating this thing like it says anything. i suppose the only level on which it's relevant is.. like dan perry pointed out.. do you want to pick a fight over this (wearing a flag pin)? if so, this kind of nonsense happens. i dunno, maybe it won't go any further than a couple right wing blogs (i didn't see on drudge, i usually don't read but just checked)

Daria, see, look what you did. Obama didn't pick a fight over his missing flag pin. And he also didn't start the shit by pointing out that several Republican candidates don't wear the pin either. How this shit starts.

If only he'd taken Kylie's advice ... *drum roll*

My post was a hypothetical response to this situation.

I believe Daria's post is meant to show the conservatives behind this story as the aggressors, not Barack Obama.

I think the only way Obama can effectively counter this is to use the fact, as Tombot pointed out, that the military doesn't even do the hand/heart gesture, and hey, who's more patriotic that the military? who are you to call the soldiers' patriotism into question?

as to the coverage -- presidential campaigns (and the media coverage of them) are usually fastidious with their candidates about these small details that are seen as "clues to character". these aren't candid photos. either obama let his candidate mask slip and didn't perform the perfunctory patriotic gesture as instructed by his handlers -- which seems unlikely to me -- or else he's making a tacit but deliberate statement about his candidacy and how it values patriotism.

"if he hadn't made the flag comment, there wouldn't be any sense to floating this thing like it says anything"

"do you want to pick a fight over this (wearing a flag pin)? if so, this kind of nonsense happens"

To me this says - "Obama is bringing this kind of thing on himself in part because of the comments he makes and the fights he chooses to pick." i.e. Republicans may be the aggressors but Obama bears (some of) the ultimate responsibility for their aggression. To me this is totally wrong-headed and not actually how it works.

elmo you are wading far too deep into the weeds. Much less is stage-managed and thought out at these sorts of things than you think. I have no doubt this was just one frozen moment where Obama happened not to have his hand over his heart - either because he was holding a microphone, or he just forgot, or it didn't occur to him, or he was thinking about his speech - who knows. I don't think this particular thing will get any traction. If it were Oct. 2008 it might - though the accusation and "telling detail" would be cranked way up, way past the basically inocuous level you see here.

hey, who's more patriotic that the military? who are you to call the soldiers' patriotism into question?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44129000/jpg/_44129902_betrayus_203b.jpg

tracer, i'm just coming from a perspective that these candidates are not so much humans as they are fundraising robots at this point in their campaigns. shaking hands, kissing babies, you know? this sort of social custom doesn't seem like something one would let drop.

and perhaps i overestimate the candidate's intent, but i can't read into election politics the same since reading didion's political fictions...

Obama didn't pick a fight over his missing flag pin.
He did say to an interviewer.. "I decided I won’t wear that pin on my chest; instead I’m gonna try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism."

I mean, I could care less if he wears it or not, surely enough American flags get waved around here - what I'm saying is, why make an issue of it when he could have just said, "I’m gonna try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism" without the part about deciding NOT to wear the pin.

I'm just saying - why complicate an issue that is a non-issue and doesn't need to be made complicated, because the lazy media will do that, and your campaign should be talking about other things.

daria, I think he's trying to cast the other candidates into doubt by implying their patriotism is as superficial as a fashion accessory, and not authentic like his own.

Do we know what the question was, that he was answering by that pin comment? Because if the question was "why don't you show your patriotism by wearing a flag pin?" he could hardly have avoided mentioning it without looking evasive.

Not putting my hand over my heart for the national anthem sounds like something I would have considered a trenchant political statement when I was like 12 years old, guys.

daria-g OTM. It was not well-played.

IIRC he was responding to a question about his lack of a flag pin.
Which is how awesome our country is, that anybody even has to answer that kind of retarded garbage from brain-damaged narcissist fuckwits who get paid to ask questions exactly like that.

An eagle-eyed reporter for the ABC affiliate in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, noticed something missing from Democratic presidential contender Sen. Barack Obama's, D-Ill., lapels.

"You don't have the American flag pin on. Is that a fashion statement?" the reporter asked, at the end of a brief interview with Obama on Wednesday. "Those have been on politicians since Sept. 12, 2001."

so angry

n/a OTM; any mature adult should be mortified to be within earshot whenever that POS song is played.

these candidates are not so much humans as they are fundraising robots at this ANY point in their campaigns.

clearly the way obama should have played it is to have

a) grinned widely, written his signature on a 5x7 of himself, and handed it to the reporter before responding with "you're welcome!"?
b) stabbed the reporter in the eye with the reporter's own pen?
c) grimly refused to respond, then arranged for the reporter's house to be burned down on Thanksgiving?
d) never have run for president in the first place because what's the fucking point anymore?

a

b & d

"You don't have the American flag pin on. Is that a fashion statement?" the reporter asked, at the end of a brief interview with Obama on Wednesday. "Those have been on politicians since Sept. 12, 2001."

so angry

x1000

I'm still not over the Romney thing. What a walking stain that guy is.

walking stain!!!

An eagle-eyed reporter

hahaha

Romney SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS.

if you want a candidate who is going to do their utmost to make the fewest mistakes, you want Hillary. obama is willing actively court political danger in the course of being himself as a statement of confidence in his ability to gain trust and persuade.

A reporter-hatted eagle

gabbneb, i think you're right on there.

Romney is unelectable

Which is why I pray he gets the GOP nomination.

I think Giuliani will be fairly easy to derail too.

i sorta said this before, but hillary's the ambitious brain who people don't really hang out with but pick to be class president because they figure she's probably better than anyone else at it (this can increase her popularity though), while obama's the popular but thoughtful quarterback who turns the class against the bully by standing up for his target.

ugh sports analogies

lol you idiot that was not in any way a sports analogy

also WTF BACLK QURTESSBACKE

sorry my eyes glazed over after the word "quarterback"

http://www.bangitout.com/uploads/40obama_vs_giulianiPic-mini.jpg

I would vote for the lady in the blue shirt.

yes, agreed, she has something, some quality that the other candidate doesn't have.

if you want a candidate who is going to do their utmost to make the fewest mistakes, you want Hillary. obama is willing actively court political danger in the course of being himself as a statement of confidence in his ability to gain trust and persuade.

-- gabbneb, Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:41 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

otm

who was the last "competent"/non-shit-starting candidate to get elected? eisenhower?

define "non-shit-starting"

Romney seems like the leading (by a little) business-wing guy, potentially able to take the nom simply by out-fundie-ing Giuliani (not hard, but far from a foregone conclusion), unless by some miracle the fundies and Southerners unite behind Huckabee and he liases with a more business-y candidate (not gonna happen), or Thompson gets behind/with McCain and that somehow doesn't make them both look tired-er. I still wouldn't rule out the possibility of Jeb making a kingmaking move (with Giuliani presumably).

I wouldn't underestimate either Romney or Giuliani. The former may be Dukakis-/wimp-able, but Dukakis was an ethnic dude, and the opposite of Romney on the shame-omoter, and Romney probably looks more like Reagan than Herbert Walker. Giuliani might be a weirdo with great gaffe potential, but up against Hillary it's not going to be a test of who gives you more warm-and-fuzzies, and it's not clear he would lose that battle either. He will be a serious candidate, competitive in states we wouldn't have to worry about otherwise.

I would vote for the lady in the blue shirt.

Only if she removes Giuliani's face from her chest. Immediately. Without hesitation.

hahaha "shame-ometer"

non-shit-starting meaning campaigning as tracy flick instead of honest/slangy/zingy/laid-back/here-to-clean-up-this-mess-from-the-outside mode of g-dub and slick willie and reagan and carter and so on - i guess the answer is hw in 88 and nixon in 72 (but not 68)

I'm no longer willing to pick Romney as more likely than Giuliani, but I do think that Giuliani is going to need something else, possibly engineered by the party/Bushes, to put him over/provide an excuse for his palatability.

Is that Giuliani or Peter Gabriel?

saying nixon was a "non-shit-starter" in '72 is kind of mystifying...?

CREEP, political assassinations of American citizens, Watergate, spying on rock stars, labelling every perceived enemy with a racial epithet etc etc

well he was playing on fears & being reactionary in that extra special nixon way but on this insider protect-the-barracks tip instead of 'let me clean up lbj's mess & end this horrible liberal war' of 68

im talking about the campaign, dumbass... the point of 72 was dependability, competence, realiable governing, not some honest off-the-cuff dude coming in to fix shit

so we're talking strictly media persona here (Nixon didn't have it in him to ever appear laid-back)

yes shakey, that's what campaigns are

nixon won 68 by stealing ideas from wallace, a certified shit-starter

yeah right whatever, Watergate break-in had nothing to do with campaign uh huh

x-post

are you seriously trying to argue that watergate means that nixon was campaigning more like obama than hillary? what the fuck are you even saying?

law & order this, law & order that, he was the daddy-knows-best candidate not the 'washington is bullshit let me fix it with my beautiful idealism' candidate. stop trying to argue with that by inventing your own definitions for words i use & generally being all shakey mo about it

dude relax I was just trying to understand your point

Reagan in '84 was pretty "daddy-knows-best/law and order"

I mean the dynamic you're describing has more to do with which party is the incumbent than anything else

i dunno reagan was always more lazy/slangy/zingy than anybody he ran against

like, yeah he was incumbent but mondale was the square

just like bush in 04... kerry was the actual outsider but bush played that weird reagan 'im just a laid back dude who dont care much for politickin BUT I AM THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN PROTECT YOU' game

Only if she removes Giuliani's face from her chest. Immediately. Without hesitation.

"I'd fuck her with a Bush mask on!"

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2007/10/mob_allowed_giuliani_to_live_w.html

It's like a leather-daddy Woody Allen with Paul Simon's hair.

this has overtaken village voice's 'lisping, vampiric demagogue' as my new favorite giuliani description

jimmy breslin called him "a little man in search of a balcony" which is fucking brilliant

hahahaha that's awesome

beautiful

new yorkers are familiar enough with dude to burn him better than anybody, i hope we hear more great zings during 08

too bad ppl in massachusetts arent as clever

lolz @ "dirty thirty" badge!

of course regular people vote in these things, and the wings have yet to anoint anyone

i'm absolutely terrified by this election, tbh, more than i was in 04.

...which is odd, i know, considering the frontrunners on the GOP side would all be look fatally flawed in their own special way even if the country wasn't absolutely disgusted with the GOP as a whole right now

if you think SNL does satire, here's The Committee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NotN9NbGYNU

(p sure that's Martin Mull 3rd from right)

Wow what a great fucking thread you picked to revive.

this thread is golden

Tom, get help.

if you want a candidate who is going to do their utmost to make the fewest mistakes, you want Hillary. obama is willing actively court political danger in the course of being himself as a statement of confidence in his ability to gain trust and persuade.

-- gabbneb, Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:41 AM (19 minutes ago)

klassik

otm

― deej, Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:06 PM (nine years ago)

if you really love your country maybe the hand should be placed lower

kill Monaco, fuck America, marry Switzerland

--Bob Marley

Totally fucking Mexico.