Bitcoins

WTF

the next internet revolution??

http://www.weusecoins.com/

I've heard a little about this, but don't know enough about the field to know if it's going to replace all known forms of currency or just crash and burn immediately. Anyone?

it seems like it could either be really big or end up some obscure little hobby. But still they do have potential for allot of illeagal use so I wonder if they will just be made illegal

Seems like it could be a big target for hackers? The distributed nature of the system (there's no central server repository for bitcoins) could help or hinder when it comes to security.

I like this for the potential to melt the brains of libertarians. On the one hand, no centralising authority, on the other it is the ultimate "fiat currency"

I guess if you consider the laws of math to be the fiat-inator

I bet there is a thousand post developer forum thread somewhere on whether it should be backed by gold or not.

Maybe not seeing it was started by Finns, but I'd like to think so.

I think it is backed by World of Warcraft gold

this is interesting

I heard about this through the ~future of the internet~ thread. It is indeed interesting, but I still feel too unskooled in this matter to form an opinion about it.

I always think with things like this. If it can be invented, it can be hacked/messed about with. What makes this system so bulletproof?

Each Bitcoin has a unique serial number that's encrypted. If someone can break that encryption, they'd be able to generate counterfeit Bitcoins and the whole system would go down. So although there's no single server to hack, there's still a single point of vulnerability.

I think the bulletproofness is the encryption - for example the Enigma machine would have worked and not been broken if the people who used it hadn't had sloppy practices. In thi scase there cannot be sloppy practices because the practitioners are computers

Does anyone else imagine bitcoins looking like this?

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2010/12/mario_coins.jpg

I know they don't really have a physical form.

There's a not-bad overview of some potential problems here http://www.quora.com/Is-the-cryptocurrency-Bitcoin-a-good-idea

http://www.sonicgear.org/ArcadeMachines/ArcadeCoin.jpg

yeah it seems like there are indeed million post forums on whether its a good idea or not but in the end time will tell. I have started mining some myself because its fun

Are you using a decent set of graphics cards? Mining on yr PC is going to cost way more in power than you'll make.

oh I've got that all figured out! real genius...

anyone here buy any acid w/ bitcoins yet

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/06/silkroad/

who is going to be the first major musician who charges bitcoins for a legal download

rush?

I believe in bitcoins

At the moment bitcoin value/rarity is supressed by spare computing cycles, which I'd rather see searching for ETs, folding proteins, or predicting climate change impacts (all distributed screensaver applications).

If we're going to have a currency backed by electricity, I'd suggest international trade settlement backed by aluminum. Its a useful material, ubitquitous in industry, and as bauxite is abundant and the major production cost is electricity for electrolytic smelting, its as close to frozen electricity as exists.

In either case, no nation/currency union would need acquire enough to back the entire economy, only enough to settle external trade imbalances and deter covert taxation through inflation.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/06/bitcoin-inside-the-encrypted-peer-to-peer-currency.ars

I have almost generated a bit dime so far - its taking forever

At the moment bitcoin value/rarity is supressed by spare computing cycles, which I'd rather see searching for ETs, folding proteins, or predicting climate change impacts (all distributed screensaver applications).

all those screensaver things are outreach tools rather than scientifically useful fwiw.

wow the value has gone way up lately - it was just 7$ a few weeks ago now like 28$!
at mtgox.com

bubble?

Does anyone else imagine bitcoins looking like this?
http://alansmoneyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bitcoin_logo.pnghttp://alansmoneyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bitcoin_logo.pnghttp://alansmoneyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bitcoin_logo.png

(in response to Abbott's earlier post)

(The answer being, yes they do look like that something from a Soviet era Russian Mario knock-off)

little broken link icons?

thinking this is going to be a HUGE deal for online gambling, since it's essentially non-taxable right?

little broken link icons?

That would be a Zelda knock-off...

I think the consensus seems to be that they will be made illegal at some point- so git 'em now!

1 - costs more electricity to generate than they're worth, which will only get worse because they're progressively halving Bitcoin production over time to top out at a maximum number of Bitcoins in 4 years.

2 - someone will crack this before then anyway (either by cracking the encryption method itself, or more likely by finding a weakness somewhere else in the system).

3 - banks will find a way to levy charges on turning Bitcoins back into real money.

4 - governments will find a way to tax this if it ever looks like being big.

"Tell me boy, is that the Chattanooga choo-choo an overheating GPU?"
"Yes I've got twenty nine."
"Well give me a Bitcoin dime."

Sometimes, when I see the price of a bitcoin today, I regret being broke as hell a month ago when I learned about them. But yeah, I probably agree with snoball in that this thing is bound to fail at some point. Also, I'm still having a hard time with this currency that can't buy anything (except drugs).
Also, is it just me or is it impossible to explain bitcoins to people without sounding kind of silly?

Seems that the only way to have made any money out of this was to be involved pretty much at the start.

without sounding kind of silly?

There's a real 'Jack & The Beanstalk' 'magic beans' feel to the whole thing, even more so than 'real' money ('I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of £5').

You could have made money by buying some when this thread was started, they were around 7-8$ iirc.

I think the question is 'how many people who would be immediately interested in buying some of these upon learning that they exist have already learned that they exist?'

like yeah on the one hand obv it's a bubble but crazy libertarian types don't have that many facebook friends, so I dunno, I'd buy some and keep em for a week

(if it were simple and I had money)

Aaand it's crossed the 30$ barrier on MtGox. Dammit, why didn't I even have 20 bucks to invest in this shit ^^

can you short bitcoins

lol

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?board=1.0

this is gonna be the place to be during the crash

since this thread was started I have got .07 btc - I can already see though that its getting harder to generate the coins

'The Ten Bitcoin Commandments' - Notorious BTC

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/6401703g69.gif

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=c354021f1f55a78b4eef48c4db9edc22&topic=13440.0

#1 - never let no-one know, how many coins you hold
#2 - never let 'em know the speed of your GPU
#3 - never trust B-T-C

life in the bitcoin mines

http://i.imgur.com/ieNK0.png

o jeez

hey mining is hard work - we need a union

buy some fuckin heroin w/ your bitcoins

you can! but I will invest them for my children's children

Balance: 0.07409062 BTC

better buy a monocle

comes w/ the heroin ime

Ten piece for a champ, bass pipe comes free
If people out there are not hip to the fact
If you see somebody gettin Bitcoins for smack
he's the
http://www.screwthestatusquo.com/storage/post-images/letters/monopoly%20guy.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1273091093189

so what happens when someone hacks the server that keeps a log of each bitcoin's transactions

The point is there is no server.

oh okay. so how does this part work

The Bitcoin solution uses cryptography and an open transaction register. Whenever you spend a Bitcoin, you cryptographically sign a statement saying that you have transferred the coin to a new owner and you identify the new owner by their public crypto key. Whenever they need to spend the coin, the new owner uses his private key to sign it over to some further owner. As soon as a transaction takes place, the recipient (who has a very strong incentive to ensure that you don't spend the coin twice) publishes the transaction to the global Bitcoin network. Now every Bitcoin user has incontrovertible evidence that the coin has been spent, and users won't accept that coin from anyone but the new owner.

I was totally going to buy a couple of these on a whim, but I had to sign up to some kind of paypal knockoff site, and put in my bank account details, now I have to wait for their stuff to go through, etc. blech

whenever you buy say some acid from wavygravy, you tell the world using your digital signature that you are giving wavygravy five bucks,
so now everyone knows that wavygravy has five more dollars and you have five less dollars, I think that's how it works.

how do you tell the world? who keeps a record of this?

guys...I have an idea...what if we monetized suggest bans

so wikipedia sez they use a p2p distributed database to keep track of transactions. seems that if somebody found some way to hack this system then they'd be in business

Forget piracy, U.S. government is going after Bitcoin

I believe it!

0.07759571 BTC

Balance: 0.07990394 BTC
come one 0.080000!!!

BTUs from GPUs exceeding BTCs...

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=21877

thanks for the link!

Turning ur Bitcoins into Butthurtcoins...

it would have been gr8 if you bought alot and sold at peak - perfect! TOTAL VICTYRY!
I WON ALL!

Wasn't this basically one of the plot threads in Cryptonomicon?

that dream has come troo

Balance: 0.08853843 BTC

What machine are you mining on Latham, and how long since you started?

just using bitcoinplus.com for a few weeks

The user known as "allinvain" is a long-time contributor to the Bitcoin forums. He says he's been mining Bitcoins for over a year, and had amassed a fortune of 25,000 BTC. This was a modest sum a few months ago, when Bitcoins were worth pennies, but over the last two months the value of a Bitcoin skyrocketed to around $20, which means 25,000 BTC would have been worth half a million dollars. "I remember watching the price like a hawk," he wrote.

And then disaster struck. "I just woke up to see a very large chunk of my bitcoin balance gone," he wrote. "Needles [sic] to say I feel like I have lost faith in bitcoin." He speculated that a Windows security flaw may have allowed the culprit to gain access to his digital wallet. "I feel like killing myself now," he said.

wow the payout amount just went way down - good thing I was an early adopter!

Balance: 0.09034359 BTC

psyched for .01 party

.1 duh

BIT DIM EHEAVEN!!!!!!!

Not sure which quote is more depressing, tbh:

"Needles to say"

or

"I feel like killing myself now"

"I feel like killing myself now"

Are we sure this isn't Morrissey?

http://www.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/i-hate-myself-mug.jpg

Bitcoin value plummets as main exchange is hacked

Inside the Mega-Hack of Bitcoin: the Full Story

oh nooes!
still it sounds like it was the exchange that was hacked, not the actual cryptography of the bitcoin

love it

Yeah, although wasn't MtGox the only game in town for turning bitcoins into $?

Seems like a) nobody trusts it any longer and b) it's even easier than people feared to crash the value of bitcoins, especially with some early adopters out there holding huge sums.

I think the main usefulness of it will be not having to turn it into $

There are other exchange places for turning bitcoins into $, but none is as big as Mt GoX was. Also, this entire story is making me laugh so much because it made me realise that this currency was mainly being traded on what used to be a Magic: the Gathering exchange website (Magic:the Gathering online Xchange = Mt GoX).

always knew magic cards were going to be the eventual world currency

hope I can find my old shivan

http://hanlepedia.wikia.com/wiki/Bitcoins

There are other exchange places for turning bitcoins into $, but none is as big as Mt GoX was. Also, this entire story is making me laugh so much because it made me realise that this currency was mainly being traded on what used to be a Magic: the Gathering exchange website (Magic:the Gathering online Xchange = Mt GoX).

― Jibe, Tuesday, June 21, 2011 3:26 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this explains so much

Hanlepedia! An encyclopedia you can trust! :-)

lol, I was wondering what mt. gox meant.

I just thought it was a mountain

its the future of the internet

http://www.coolstuffinc.com/images/Products/mtg%20art/Fourth/Land%20Tax.jpg

^^^hacker probably looks like this

Somehow I doubt it ;)

god dammit

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=1624&type=card

who took all the monopoly money!

http://www.screwthestatusquo.com/storage/post-images/letters/monopoly%20guy.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1273091093189
Come to think of it, he kind of looks a lot like the 1u1z5ec guy

I always try to steal money when I play monopoly - wait until people look away then grab some 500$ s

I did that with my little brother all the time when I was a kid

but I would do it like one bill at a time

so he wouldn't notice until some point where I had 75% of the bank

cheating is more fun when it comes to board games

I loved stealing Monopoly money.

do you love bitcoins?

Sadly, no.

Is there a single reason why this thing is a good idea?

I think what needs to happen is for bitcoins to be backed by gold

how about gold being backed by bitcoins?

Chocolate gold coins?

we're back baby!

https://mtgox.com/trade/buy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/9555513.stm

bitcoinplus now blocked by our firewall!

A couple months ago I wanted to sell flash drives filled with a "starter purse" of 35 "bitcoinz" (note the z!) on eBay. Bundle it with some phony .PDF about starting your exciting journey into the world of crypto currency!

there was a website giving away free bitcoisn for a while to get the "movement" going

LOL at bitcoin-themed episode of The Good Wife

What if there was some kind of Bitcoin/Minecraft crossover (Minecoin? Bitcraft?)

http://i.imgur.com/8xgFw.jpg

bitcoin just bit yoru ass yo! while you was havin strawberry

http://www.examiner.com/article/hackers-claim-possession-of-romney-tax-returns-threaten-release-on-sept-28

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/10/analysis_of_how.html

In addition, we isolated all the large transactions in the system, and discovered that almost all of them are closely related to a single large transaction that took place in November 2010, even though the associated users apparently tried to hide this fact with many strange looking long chains and fork-merge structures in the transaction graph.

awesome

cant pull the wool over thiese bitches

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8096/8372512244_9e314b0605_z.jpg

http://qz.com/61893/this-is-how-we-mint-money-now-software-upgrade-glitch-causes-bitcoin-flash-crash/

http://www.kurzweilai.net/bitcoin-hits-1-billion

http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_8qRwhHaLc7b5Sp7

Austan Goolsbee Chicago Strongly Agree 10 Hahahaha. ROTFL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/seven-men-charged-in-liberty-reserve-global-money-laundering-operation/2013/05/28/0999536c-c7ce-11e2-8da7-d274bc611a47_story.html

http://gawker.com/feds-seize-assets-of-worlds-largest-bitcoin-exchange-506790294

I'll bet that even possessing the Bitcoin software will be "probable cause" from here on out.

http://b.thumbs.redditmedia.com/H0-6OpjswRj1Ke3U.jpg

Bitcoin offers privacy -- as long as you don't cash out or spend it

On the surface, Bitcoin seems to be a great way to hide cash. Actually, it's a terrible way to launder money.

That's the conclusion of a new academic study that analyzed Bitcoin's blockchain, or the public ledger that records bitcoin transactions. The ledger shows how bitcoins move from one person to another, represented by 34-character alphanumeric addresses.

It's a sea of numbers without names. But researchers from the University of California at San Diego and George Mason University found it is a lot harder to convert bitcoins to cash -- or spend the bitcoins with a service -- and stay anonymous due to the ledger.

Most bitcoin users interact with a service to buy or sell the virtual currency. These days, most of those services want to know exactly who they're dealing with, especially as regulators around the world take an increasing interest in bitcoin.

Using special algorithms, the researchers were able to associate large numbers of seemingly anonymous bitcoins addresses with certain major services such as exchanges and payment processors, said Sarah Meiklejohn, a doctoral candidate in computer science at UC San Diego, who assisted in the research.

By analyzing those transactions, they found it is possible to somewhat deanonymize bitcoin users, opening up avenues through which investigators could reveal the people behind them.

For example, they linked more than 500,000 Bitcoin addresses with Mt. Gox, a popular exchange in Japan where users buy and sell bitcoins. Mt. Gox requires identification from its users, often including a scan of their passport. It wouldn't make sense for a hacker to cash out a large number of bitcoins there.

"We haven't uncovered the identity of the thief, but we've paved the way for law enforcement or an agency with subpoena power to do exactly that," Meiklejohn said.

Woah, Silk Road supposedly busted: http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/2/4794780/fbi-seizes-underground-drug-market-silk-road-owner-indicted-in-new

(this seemed about the best place I could find to post this... do we have a general cybercrimey type thread?)

rip

http://nation.time.com/2013/10/02/alleged-silk-road-proprietor-ross-william-ulbricht-arrested-3-6m-in-bitcoin-seized/#ixzz2gaCv1yiE

According to the filing, Ulbricht is being charged on four counts: narcotics trafficking conspiracy, computer hacking conspiracy and money laundering conspiracy. The criminal complaint also alleges that in March 2013, Ulbricht engaged in a “murder-for-hire” scheme where he enlisted one Silk Road user to murder another Silk Road user who was threatening to release the identities of all of the website’s users.

p21 and onwards of the complaint is pretty nuts re this: http://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/UlbrichtCriminalComplaint.pdf

(re murder that is)

Silk Road did $1.2 billion worth of business between February of 2011 and July of 2013 ... Silk Road had 957,079 registered users who did 1.2 million transactions between February of 2011 and July of 2013

so the average transaction was $1000? huh. i suppose the high price of assassinations will put the average up a bit.

Fucking lol

xp i think the calculations thrown off because they're valuing it by what a bitcoin is worth today, rather than what it was worth at the time of the transaction

RIP

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/11/27/bitcoin-1000-cryptocurrency/3768821/

Man searches landfill site for hard drive with £4m-worth of bitcoins

I just found out that a college friend who I consider brilliant and who did very well in silicon valley has jumped aboard the bitcoin train. He's convinced it will be "huge" and "disrupt banking." I remain skeptical, but it at least prompted me to think about bitcoin more than I have in months.

http://www.businessinsider.com/someone-holding-bitcoin-sign-on-college-gameday-receives-over-22-bitcoins-2013-12

new thing is Litecoins

That dude with the sign on Game Day story is crazy. Wonder if I could go back in time and hold up a sign with a Pay Pal address.

miss u bitcoins
http://www.coindesk.com/price-crashes-china-outlaws-bitcoin-financial-institutions/

It seems like the other thread is more active than this one but is also annoyingly not searchable. Any way to merge the two under a searchable title? Mods?

yeah I'd be in favor of just locking the other one

Sure.

The new thread can be found at 13UAdioF8zEwb4uyAhq2VuhnRKizgJjoCoCe

lolz

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2013/12/how-and-why-bitcoin-will-plummet-in-price.html

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BcrKP88CAAA_YKg.png

otm

*slurps champagne*

cool sig

hrm

the main point is that I don't claim any special expertise in technology -- I almost never make technological forecasts, and the only reason there was stuff like that in the 98 piece was because the assignment required that I do that sort of thing. The issues about Bitcoin, however, are not technological! Everyone agrees that it's technically very sweet. But does it work as money? That's a very different kind of question.

And the fact that people are throwing around my 98 quote actually shows that they don't get this point -- that they're confusing technology with monetary economics.

http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/BACKWRD2.html

krugman's predictions from 1996 were amazingly prescient and help put his other technology prediction in context

yeah thats a great piece

http://bitcoinblogger.com/more-benefits-of-bitcoin/

the more u kno

lulz

btw I wish we could make this one the regular bitcoin thread, since the other one is unsearchable and I don't even know how the fuck to make the cent sign on my keyboard

"...most people have nothing to say to each other!"

Never seems to stop them saying it, though.

Not sure why people are bringing up Paul Krugman quotes in reference to a (very good) analysis by Tyler Cowen. I think a lot of people are hoping Bitcoin will fail since they missed the chance to buy in when it was cheap. Cowen isn't saying it will fail, rather that it's success will inspire competition, and once that happens the value of each unit will fall.

lulz (xp)

btw I wish we could make this one the regular bitcoin thread, since the other one is unsearchable and I don't even know how the fuck to make the cent sign on my keyboard

http://i.imgur.com/GeqM32m.png

whoops double post somehow

I think a lot of people are hoping Bitcoin will fail since they missed the chance to buy in when it was cheap.

If you really believe bitcoin will succeed, then it is by its nature still cheap, since it would have to rise a lot in value/market cap to be useful. I'm mostly hoping it will fail because it's favored by anti-government, anti-central-banking libertarian nutjob morons. I think it has a chance of taking off, but its road is fraught with pitfalls.

im hoping it will fail cause itd be funny and i hate nerds

If you really believe bitcoin will succeed, then it is by its nature still cheap, since it would have to rise a lot in value/market cap to be useful.

That's assuming that there won't be a lot of successful competitors. The total market cap of crypto-currency may have to rise, but that might be spread among lots of Bitcoin competitors, so the value of individual Bitcoins could potentially fall.

imho it has 0% chance of working whatever the fuck that would look like

Feel like a situation where a bunch of crypto currencies all exist at once resembles the stock market more than an actual system of currency

feel like it resembles something the government would seek to regulate thereby rendering its supposed advantages irrelevant

The total market cap of crypto-currency may have to rise, but that might be spread among lots of Bitcoin competitors, so the value of individual Bitcoins could potentially fall.

― o. nate, Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:49 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that would be a really bad and stupid outcome for everyone involved. Having a bunch of different competing crypto-currencies would make them even less useful.

which is too bad cause everyone is super pining for a system to transfer money without any pesky fraud protection or way to even identify the entity on the other end of the transaction

i mean admittedly it would be cool for crime but theres the problem of the government again

Also for bitcoin to really work as a currency i think it probably requires a big enough critical mass of people willing to believe in the mass delusion it has value in the same way that people believe a piece of paper with a serial number printed by the government has value

Bitcoin's major flaw seems to be the enormous swings in its value. If someone could come up with a cryptocurrency that had built-in ways to prevent such large swings in value, that would be a serious competitor.

hmm almost like if you had some sort of central regulating body that could control the flow of cash in response to market pressures

also in the $1000 range it suffers from "holy shit that's a lot of money" syndrome, like apple stock. What they should really do is rename the redenominated 1000th bitcoins and call them "New Bitcoins" or something, then drop the "new" after a little while.

lol lagoon

Bitcoin has managed to solve lots of difficult coordination problems without requiring a central regulating body. Maybe there's a way to do that with the exchange rate volatility problem. xxp

well not as long as you have a fixed amount of the currency

ya its not a coordination problem, its a problem w the fundamental concept of the thing

its like the gold standard except worse cause theres not any actual stuff

That's true of bitcoin, but not necessarily true of any possible decentralized, P2P currency.

it would be pretty interesting if there were a way to "code" a currency that self-regulated its supply, but I don't know how the fuck that would work practically

where does money even come from, makes u think

someone just fiats it into existence or something, a wizard?

three wizards

maybe peter thiel can raise an army on his little private island nation and use it to force people to take bitcoin

i want that island to be real more than almost anything

it would be pretty interesting if there were a way to "code" a currency that self-regulated its supply, but I don't know how the fuck that would work practically

Feel like if this happened it would take approx .1 sec for somebody to hack it and flood the market for the lulz

three wizards

― Clay, Wednesday, January 8, 2014 10:08 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ty m8 good info *edits wikipedia*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk9uevsHvAE

im hoping it will fail cause itd be funny and i hate nerds

^

I don't see any way it can succeed without the government either regulating it or creating their own cryptocurrency. I find this stuff fascinating but it feels something like a bunch of people saying "let's make our own country where you don't have to wear seatbelts or obey a speedlimit", then constantly getting seriously injured in car wrecks

I thought the only reason bitcoin was kind of a thing was because you could buy drugs and shit on the silk road website that got taken down by the feds

Cowen isn't saying it will fail, rather that it's success will inspire competition, and once that happens the value of each unit will fall.

He is, subtly. While increased competition decreases its price, it also decreases its value of exchange, unit, and store—rendering it non-functional.

I think a lot of people are hoping Bitcoin will fail since they missed the chance to buy in when it was cheap. Cowen isn't saying it will fail, rather that it's success will inspire competition, and once that happens the value of each unit will fall.

This is absurd. I have 500 BTC, mostly from mining, and I think the idea, the implementation, and community is idiotic.

Holy shit

I didn't know that I was posting in the presence of a Bitcoinionaire

I don't see any way it can succeed without the government either regulating it or creating their own cryptocurrency.

The government is already regulating it. In the US, if you exchange Bitcoins for real currency, you have to register and perform money-laundering background checks.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/us-regulator-bitcoin-exchanges-must-comply-with-money-laundering-laws/

Yeah but that's an example of government regulation designed to make it harder to use

anytime you start to get the idea that bitcoin might succeed, it's a good idea to read this:
https://twitter.com/shit_rbtc_says

The government is already regulating it. In the US, if you exchange Bitcoins for real currency, you have to register and perform money-laundering background checks.

Unless you’re Coinbase …

etaeoe have you attempted to cash in any of yr coins was it a pain

Re: Coinbase and regulation, an e-mail I was forwarded written by 44r0n Gr33n5p4n:

Coinbase is many things, but "compliant" is not one of them. It has =
registered with FinCEN=97as a corporation with a Delaware address that =
appears to have no real connection with them. But it has not even =
applied for a money transmission license in any state thus far, even =
though it told FinCEN that it=92s doing business everywhere. This is a =
direct violation of those states=92 laws as well as 18 U.S.C. =A7 1960. =
Earlier this month, Fred Ehrsam admitted at a panel at Stanford Law =
School that Coinbase is being investigated by FinCEN. I have the =
recording if you=92d like to hear it; I=92m considering just posting it =
on-line regardless. As you may or may not know, my company is suing =
Coinbase and many other unlicensed money transmitters =
(http://www.plainsite.org/flashlight/case.html?id=3D2434524), but my =
involvement doesn=92t make the facts any less true.

Secondly, there is not a "lack of regulation" in the U.S. surrounding =
Bitcoin as you state. There is certainly a lack of understanding about =
the many laws and regulations that exist, and the supposed lack of =
regulation is a theme that has been wrongly promulgated in the popular =
media. But Bitcoin is actually quite regulated in the United States, and =
always has been. The FinCEN guidance issued in March merely clarified =
that fact for anyone who claimed it wasn=92t the case. It=92s not even a =
gray area. These companies currently require licenses and do not have =
them. They are breaking the law, whether one agrees with it or not.

etaeoe have you attempted to cash in any of yr coins was it a pain

Not yet. I need to speak to a tax accountant. I’m 100% confident I’ll be audited for having anomalous capital gains (my personal investments are all equity from employment and typical risk-adverse Vanguard retirement stuff). If you’re curious, the liquidity issue isn’t too bad. I’m permitted to sell 50 BTC per day.

ya the liquidity issues prob more pertain to the people w millions of these things

like i think we already had this chart but almost all the bitcoins are just sitting there

http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/52a74254eab8eacb2266bfa7-828-454/bitcoin%20pie%20ownershp.png

Cash out via swiss bank

Start a shell holding company in the Caymans or BVI

Profit

fwiw like half the corporations in the US have a "Delaware address" with "no real connection" to them

fwiw like half the corporations in the US have a "Delaware address" with "no real connection" to them

Yeah, I didn’t understand that either. He’s been through the incorporation and investment processes so I’m sure he knows that too. I think he was saying, “If they’ve registered, it isn’t under the incorporated entity they conduct business under.” But I have no idea.

yeah could be

Shit /r/Bitcoin says ‏@shit_rbtc_says 14h

The owner of Silk Road should be given Obama's Nobel peace prize.

i have to admit that i would love to see bitcoin be a tremendous success in 2014 and all these seemingly deluded nerds walk away with massive payouts and all the internet intelligentsia forced to admit how wrong and cynical they were
"it was a gold rush and we missed it... why couldn't i just BELIEVE"

it would be so fun

visionary stuff right there

and i'll c+p that quote for you to chew on like the bitter tea leaves of your heart when that bright bitcoin day comes

visionary metaphor mixing

that's why i'm on ripplin

Interesting article suggesting that so far we've only scratched the surface of innovations that could be built on top of Bitcoin:

http://theumlaut.com/2014/01/08/bitcoin-internet-of-money/

here are some other interesting articles from that author

http://theumlaut.com/2013/01/30/why-americas-fiscal-reality-will-make-euthanasia-inevitable/

http://theumlaut.com/2013/03/13/paul-krugman-is-brilliant-but-is-he-meta-rational

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/3020148783/8fe0568213d240a2ca1b447493a70bde.jpeg

interesting guy thinking baout things

i didn't know sarge wrote abt bitcoin

Shit /r/Bitcoin says ‏@shit_rbtc_says 8 Jan
If only there would be mass non-compliance against laws in the US. Then we might have some semblance of freedom in the "land of the free."

just read this on a jobs board:

Presenter for New Show (Must Have Understanding of Bitcoin)

just found out that apparently if any one group can control 51% of all mining power at any time they can do what is known as a "doublespend attack" which essentially could bring down the whole ship, and it looks like one group is getting close, what a shock

i think charmander has a doublespend attack mirit

yeah its surprising someone w a sick ass botnet hasnt just declared that they have all the bitcoins

Bitcoin is just a long story of how libertarians discover what financial regulation is for, piece by piece, as lack of it begins to affect them negatively.

haha

!

damn, whose?

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/20/jamaican-bobsled-team-raises-dogecoin-winter-olympics

so chi

Marc Andreessen's case for Bitcoin:

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/why-bitcoin-matters

Editor’s note: Marc Andreessen’s gigantic pointed skull is full of bitcoins

a tumblr of things that people claimed were the next personal computer/internet

A random spectator at a televised sports event held up a placard with a QR code and the text “Send me Bitcoin!” He received $25,000 in Bitcoin in the first 24 hours, all from people he had never met.

except that it was all from himself

No doubt Andreessen's quite biased, but he makes some good points. I don't buy his argument that Bitcoin's first-mover advantage will guarantee dominance in the crypto-currency sphere though. If you can accept and process one form of crypto-currency, it's a negligible additional effort to accept and process a different form, so I don't think the network effects are as strong as he claims. I still think Tyler Cowen nailed this - eventually as crypto-currencies proliferate the value of any particular currency in circulation has to fall to equal the marginal cost of launching a new one.

its funny he touts all these benefits to business and then the benefit to consumers is you wont get hacked which of course is actually a benefit to business, the benefit to consumers is what no fraud/dispute protection

I've come to think that bitcoin probably is some of the things that its supporters claim, and is not others. E.g. it makes sense to me that it's a very useful way to transfer money or make payments globally without friction/fees. However, I don't think it's going to be a successful tax avoidance strategy, or money laundering device, or drug-purchasing tool forever, and I certainly don't think it's going to become some kind of universal currency that will upend currency and the banking system as we know it.

i have yet to see anyone make a good argument why any person would want to use these over a debit/credit card, buying drugs excepted

the friction/fees are all incurred by the business

If you're paranoid about ID theft would be one. Or if you don't have a credit card.

The better argument I've heard is that people could use it for international remittances instead of services that charge high fees.

not to mention that the security overhead is ridiculous to ask non technical people to handle, someone gets yr wallet infos and all yr bitcoins are gone

if the US government fails I would think Bitcoin would be pretty useful

xp right -- I mean the fees incurred by the business drive up your cost in the end too, but you're not going to make a decision based on that. However, it's possible there could be smaller merchants who would rather just not take credit cards at all -- etsy-type sellers, who could accept bitcoin.

The bigger problems to me are security and stability in the price. If you're just going to transfer quickly in/out of bitcoin for payment purposes only, the stability is less of a problem, as an article here or in the other thread pointed out.

Or if you don't have a credit card.

The better argument I've heard is that people could use it for international remittances instead of services that charge high fees.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:33 AM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how are you getting the bitcoins w/o the credit card what are the fees associated with that, what abou the fee when you have to transfer bitcoin back into local currency after remittance, and this is all ignoring the obvious market realities that existing systems like money wiring or w/e can just lower their fees to compete w bitcoin

not to mention that the security overhead is ridiculous to ask non technical people to handle, someone gets yr wallet infos and all yr bitcoins are gone

― lag∞n, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:34 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah this is a big barrier, although there might be a tech solution to it. Fingerprint sensor activated wallet or such.

If you're just going to transfer quickly in/out of bitcoin for payment purposes only, the stability is less of a problem, as an article here or in the other thread pointed out.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:37 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

there would be fees for this, bitcoin only becomes feeless if its the default currency which is never gonna happen this is all so stupid

yeah this is a big barrier, although there might be a tech solution to it. Fingerprint sensor activated wallet or such.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:38 AM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

everything is breakable, if there were thousands of dollars just lying around on peoples phones it would start to disappear very fast

smh at dealbook what a piece of shit thats some techcrunch level letting people sell their own book in yr pages

I don't think Western Union would be able to lower fees enough to compete with something that is literally zero cost. Factor in the in and out exchange fees and I still don't think so.

I agree that there are like a million possible ways for bitcoin to not turn into what its boosters think it can turn into, and that the odds are against it, but I still think it has some interesting possibilities.

its not zero cost my god how many times do you have to have this pointed out to you

Well, to be fair to Dealbook, they also recently published a post-mortem on Bitcoin, arguing that Bitcoin was as good as toast and analyzing the misconceptions of its backers.

xxp

they couldve gotten the pro bitcoin line maybe from someone who wasnt the most heavily invested in it of anyone in the world

its not zero cost my god how many times do you have to have this pointed out to you

This is a fair point. If you don't want to be exposed to Bitcoin currency fluctuations, you can't keep your money in Bitcoins, so the cost of any one transaction is the sum of (1) fees to convert your currency to Bitcoin plus bid-ask spread, (2) transaction fee associated with the Bitcoin transaction itself, and (3) fees + spread to convert back to currency on the other end. This is probably not negligible, but still could end up being less than an international wire (I have no idea how much those cost) and possibly more convenient too. I do think this will probably just motivate international wire services to improve their service and cut fees, but if so that's a win-win for everyone (except I guess people who have their life savings in Bitcoin).

yeah thatd be cool but it does nothing for the viability of bitcoin

im quite sure theres a shitload of other costly infrastructure that would have to be worked into that equation too, real life will intrude upon the beautiful logarithm

bitcoin, massively open online education... what other deeply stupid shit have genius technologists attempting to disrupt industries they no nothing about come up with recently

its not zero cost my god how many times do you have to have this pointed out to you

This is a fair point. If you don't want to be exposed to Bitcoin currency fluctuations, you can't keep your money in Bitcoins, so the cost of any one transaction is the sum of (1) fees to convert your currency to Bitcoin plus bid-ask spread, (2) transaction fee associated with the Bitcoin transaction itself, and (3) fees + spread to convert back to currency on the other end. This is probably not negligible, but still could end up being less than an international wire (I have no idea how much those cost) and possibly more convenient too. I do think this will probably just motivate international wire services to improve their service and cut fees, but if so that's a win-win for everyone (except I guess people who have their life savings in Bitcoin).

― o. nate, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:48 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think this is right, except I disagree that international wire services necessarily could just cut fees to compete. Maybe, maybe not. At some point it's not profitable for them to do so anymore. They have high overhead.

and bitcoiin related businesses would have to have high overhead to compete with them on service, the part of bitcoin thats "zero cost" transferring the funds is also effectively zero cost for for the wire services

I'm still struggling to see any legit use for Bitcoin that doesn't involve doing something illegal or on shaky legal ground. I really wish it was around for the 2004-2006 poker boom.

Isn't the most attractive thing for most people in the short term that it relatively keeps climbing in value per coin? And it's only doing so because it's a fad. Beyond that I don't get why it exists.

it exists cause theyre gonna end the tyranny of taxation lol

No, dogecoin will.

if anything though this whole experiment seems to be exposing the libertarian viewpoint as less "fuck the upper class because nobody should have that much power" and more "fuck the upper class because I'm not one of them"

this is news to me that libertarians hate the upper class

anyone here interested in making a joke currency? (or has dogecoin already claimed all the jokes)

im interested in making a joke illegal marketplace where i steal all the bitcoins

Trader Jokes

Editor’s note: Marc Andreessen’s gigantic pointed skull is full of bitcoins

― lag∞n, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:21 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

my coworker just glanced over at my screen to see why i was http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1002961/muttley-laugh-o.gif'ing so hard

srsly that photo doesnt even tell the whole story my god

http://i.forbesimg.com/media/lists/people/marc-andreessen_416x416.jpg

thats his real head

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/5179166eeab8ead044000002-480/marc-andreessen-google-glass.jpg

http://31.media.tumblr.com/6fc637cb157ae0d005971bb062c32e94/tumblr_mive8mkWss1rj7luco1_400.jpg

bitcoin is prob an alien currency

reddit alien

if his whole argument = bitcoin is low fees, its super disingenny for him to be like, well, everyone will use services that convert BTC into regular currency anyway

dont those things charge fees? if not how do they exist

also isnt this:

Finally, I’d like to address the claim made by some critics that Bitcoin is a haven for bad behavior, for criminals and terrorists to transfer money anonymously with impunity. This is a myth, fostered mostly by sensationalistic press coverage and an incomplete understanding of the technology. Much like email, which is quite traceable, Bitcoin is pseudonymous, not anonymous. Further, every transaction in the Bitcoin network is tracked and logged forever in the Bitcoin blockchain, or permanent record, available for all to see. As a result, Bitcoin is considerably easier for law enforcement to trace than cash, gold or diamonds.

completely going against the mythology of bitcoin? kind of stunning that he would say that tbh

its all logged with perfectly anonymous numbered accounts and there are services specifically for confounding attempts to trace bitcoins back to particular transactions

xpost from the other thread great article about the silk road dude

Hence Bitcoin’s wry new nickname in legal circles: “Prosecution Futures.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/19/business/eagle-scout-idealist-drug-trafficker.html

― lag∞n, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 2:34 AM (17 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Feel like Marc Andresseeeen would do really well in a cycling competition. His wind resistance must be close to 0

https://bitcoin.app.net

My bank charges me $15 for international wire transfers (flat fee) and obviously I'm paying the spread as well, it's not a very competitive rate

I think xe.com offers really competitive rates but I've never really researched it

I don't really see how remittance through bitcoin would be cheaper than an online-only exchange service that didn't have to worry about the cost of B&M overhead like banks do

ya like what INTRINSICALLY is cheaper about providing a bitcoin service

it saves money by not providing fraud protection/dispute resolution why dont u see

Spent five weeks in HK this year and since I had a bank account there I decided to transfer a couple thousand in cash to 'save money'

Ended up finding a place that operated out of the 17th floor of a room that beat my bank's exchange rate by at least 5 points

Also used a credit card w/ no foreign exchange rate, its rate ended up being the same as my bank's rate, without a $15 charge

Felt pretty silly, should have just brought straight cash and exchanged it at the 17th floor place

Point being that if a tiny little place operating out of an apartment in HK can beat bank rates with ease then I'm sure xe.com or w/e can too

Also best part about the place is 1.) they are called the Berlin Currency Exchange and 2.) their website is a blogspot http://bcel1985.blogspot.hk/

its kinda funny how these computer dudes dont even realize theyve strayed way far from their area of expertise

a credit card w/ no foreign exchange rate

Sorry should be no foreign exchange fee

I don't really see how remittance through bitcoin would be cheaper than an online-only exchange service that didn't have to worry about the cost of B&M overhead like banks do

― 龜, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 7:56 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ya like what INTRINSICALLY is cheaper about providing a bitcoin service

― socki (s1ocki), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:04 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Because ordinary banks and international money transfer services don't have a way to, like, magically make money disappear and reappear halfway around the world. They rely on massive international transfer networks that handle settlements. Not to mention that there are lots of licensing and regulatory costs (I'm not making the libertarian argument here, I'm just trying to answer a question). You CAN'T just be like "hey, I'mma start a money transfer website out of my garage, boom."

I mean bitcoins basically travel through the internet on their own. Ordinary money doesn't actually do that, even though it sometimes feels like it does.

Bitcoin -> real currency exchanges would be subject to the same licensing and regulatory costs, no?

Isn't that the hook that the Feds are using to clamp down on Bitcoin exchanges

it saves money by not providing fraud protection/dispute resolution why dont u see

― lag∞n, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:09 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's true too, but like 1/2 of the reason (note, I am not saying all of the reason) for fraud protection on credit cards in the first place does not apply to bitcoin, namely that someone who gets your credit card info can make additional purchases on your card.

xp currency exchange costs perhaps yes, if the govt decides to regulate it (which yeah they probably should), but perhaps not the cost of going through international settlement networks, which, to be honest, I have no idea what the costs are and I don't think any of us do.

What mandates that a currency exchange operator has to go through an international settlement network tho?

pretty questionable to make a cycling joke when the high diving joke was so crucial to the coneheads lols imo xpost

I am no expert on this, but I thought you needed a way to actually transfer the money from entity A in the US to entity B in hong kong or wherever. I don't think you can just have the guy at one office call the other office and say "We're straight now, Moneyz X-Change now has $1000 less on its books, and Moneyz X-Change Hong Kong now has $1000 more." I mean otherwise you could just make money appear out of thin air.

xposts

I'm guessing that most of the costs associated with a wire transfer are in the origination and termination rather than in the actual transfer. So unless you can go an buy a loaf of bread with bitcoin you're still stuck with those and given that these costs are somewhat uniform irrespective of the amount transferred small transfers are going to be penalised proportionately.

that's not to say that BTC can't carve out a niche and challenge incumbent platforms. There are already mechanisms outside of traditional banks, the Hawala system for one.

At the moment I feel like someone has the opportunity to use bit coin as the basis for a lyca mobile or corner shop phone card of money transfer systems.

Hmm isn't the simplest way just to have Entity A hold both HKD and USD and make appropriate additions/deductions as necessary

Not an expert in this either, I guess you're saying the international settlement network works as some sort of verifier? xp

Are you talking about a single currency-exchange shop or an international remitter? A storefront exchange can just keep USD and HKD and keep track via bookkeeping. But if you're talking about actually sending money overseas, that's different. Yes, it's basically a verifier, is my understanding.

And remember even the same company in two different countries generally involves different entities.

I'm sort of thinking of an online only shop that you'd keep bank account info from your HK bank and your US bank in, and you'd do the whole thing online - a virtual storefront exchange ; )

I suppose that you'd want some sort of guarantee that the place would be relatively liquid in all the currencies it trades in

xp Yeah, not sure if not having a physical presence in a territory would still require separate entities

But anyway seems to me that the only advantage of bitcoin is that bitcoin, as an intermediate holding unit, is a self-verifier so you can bypass the international settlement network

But you'd be opening yourself up to a bunch of other dangers. Are your accounts insured against theft/fraud, for example

Because ordinary banks and international money transfer services don't have a way to, like, magically make money disappear and reappear halfway around the world.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:46 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah just wait until they get computers its gonna change everything

I am no expert on this

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 9:02 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

mm

Banks can't just send money via computer directly to each other without a third party involved. There would be no way to verify the credit/debit if they could

Really, just take a few mins and think about that before you try to zing me again.

you really think there are banything more than negligible costs associated with banks moving money around the world

Anyway how many middlemen does bitcoin cut out of the transaction, doesn't seem like enough of a cost-saving to be worth it given its other problems

like there's a lil guy in a room counting the money they have to pay

ill def make super sure to check myself before stepping to the bit god hurting again tho

he has read some blog posts by delusional nerds

xp yes they are called the costs of being a bank

lol oh i thought the costs were associated with third third party verification guy

a random dude with a website can't even get that. It's not just like hiring a "guy" to verify, it's being a part of the international banking system.

Well Hurting's not wrong in that interbank transfers are handled by the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Clearing_House

I'm not sure it's supposed to make any money tho

Domestic US interbank transfers, I think

And it's one of several I think

I'm opening up Wikipedia pages as fast as I can

a random dude with a website can't even get that. It's not just like hiring a "guy" to verify, it's being a part of the international banking system.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 9:38 PM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so what youre saying now is that its not some transfer fees that prevent the banks from competing with bitcoins ability to move money around for "free" its that banks have too much overhead

Where is the post where I said that it's "some transfer fees" that might make it harder for banks from competing with bitcoin?

Because ordinary banks and international money transfer services don't have a way to, like, magically make money disappear and reappear halfway around the world.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Wednesday, January 22, 2014 8:46 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

again, where is the part where I said it was "transfer fees"?

oh sorry you need an example of you using those exact words lol

Bitcoin is tearing us apart

not just saying things that amount to that over and over

it costs money to have the ability to transfer money around the world, you can't just do it because you have "computers"

now you are beginning to see

but the marginal cost of a bank moving a dollar around the world is 0

But you can't do it unless you are a bank, and it costs money to be a bank

well if the only thing you did as a bank was move money around the world you might have a point

if every bank was paypal say

The marginal cost of time warner allowing the internet to work on my home cable is zero too, why does it even cost money?

They just beam the signal over their lines, boom, zero cost.

thats not really true but lets pretend it is, cable is their primary product its how they make their money, the marginal cost of operating an atm is actually non zero but my bank still lets me use it for free, do you think if some crypto currency was threatening banks financial services domination they would have any problem lowering their prices to compete, they would not

this is of course accepting all of bitcoins ridiculous assumptions re regulation and cash in/out

the point is bitcoin doesnt do anything banks cant do

a big international bank could provide a service at a large net loss to compete. that doesn't mean it wants to or is going to.

None of this is to speak of western union, which pretty much does only do this.

it wouldnt be a large net loss is the whole point it would be no loss at all, money transfers arent their main business and the cost is effectively 0

btw banks don't charge you for atms because you are letting them hold your money

yes banks want to handle yr money they want you to open accounts and take out loans deal with them altogether

and some crypto banking network is a threat to that

but the whole argument is stupid in the first place cause if the only thing you have going for you is the ability for individuals transfer cash internationally youre never going to reach the critical mass that something like this needs to work, how is the vietnamese villager going cash out the bitcoins their son sent from germany, if there is some way for them to do it is it really gonna cost less than the 3% paypal charges

and some crypto banking network is a threat to that

― lag∞n, Wednesday, January 22, 2014 10:25 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I never said anything remotely suggesting bitcoin is a threat to the banking system. I pretty clearly said the opposite. I just think that the built-in anti-doublespending/self-verifying properties of bitcoin may have some potential uses.

basically you need a bank account and a smartphone at least to even use bitcoin, once you have those things you have access to reasonably priced financial services that bitcoin could only ever compete with on price if it became ubiquitous enough that it didnt need to be exchanged for local currency in order to buy things eeeeexcept that will never happen because bitcoin will never be a stable store of value

i wasnt be sarcastic about the threat stuff if bitcoin starts doing some of the things banks do now then by nature its a threat and they will react, i mean its not an existential threat, but banks arent just gonna sit by and let competitors do whatever they want

i do also wonder if ppl will lose their life savings when their house burns down, computer gets stolen, etc... in a way isnt this a return to stuffing money under the mattress

yeah thats one of the most lol things about it, yr fancy cyber future money that has to live in a physical place

the winklevos twins keep theirs on thumb drives in safe deposit boxes lmao

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FMNW1dq8Jvo/UqhfwAMI5BI/AAAAAAAAOKg/OMVCqqIgp3U/s1600/bitcoin%2Bpie%2Bownershp.png

if this keeps up itll be moot theyll all be purple

how do they divide up which individuals are in which slice of the pie

i guess roughly by quarters

xp for one thing, just spitballing here, you could have storefront local currency exchange shops that do bitcoin transfers, i.e. I go to bucket shop in Chicago, I give them cash, they send bitcoin to bucket shop in vietnam, vietnam bucket shop gives my uncle cash. Again, I am talking about potential uses and in the future if at all, and would not work unless bitcoin price was at least kinda stable, (b/c bucket shop in vietnam would not want to be stuck holding the bitcoin if it was super volatile).

I am a major stan of central banking and I hate libertarian techno-nerds as much as anyone, but I still think the technology is interesting and has potential.

i feel like if you did htat you'd end up paying as much as you do now to send money somewhere

maybe. I have neither changed money in a long time nor done a WU transfer ever, so IDK

yup and bitcoin by its nature will never be a stable store of value

the bitcoin technology is amazing as technology (not that im some computer scientist but this much seems true i trust the comuter peoples opinons on computer things), as economics/commerce its idiotic, im sure the underlying principals of bitcoin technology will be repurposed for useful things at some point

Suggest Bitcoin

although if the bitcoin part of the transaction lowers the cost for the exchangers, it would lower the fees they'd need to charge to make it profitable

but yeah, I also lean towards "will never be a stable store of value"

the thing about western union is they take advantage of people who dont have bank accounts, yr concept of the store front bitcoin exchange doesnt sound totally unreasonable but theres a tremendous about of competition to bank the unbanked of world rn, a lot of it through mobile technology, so i kinda doubt western union is long for this world anyway, and once people can just move money around via their phones they dont need the bitcoin storefront

phone-money could be bitcoin based too obvs. I ultimately do not have the wherewithal to evaluate whether it would be cheaper to (A) run a global phone-based payment network that relies on the traditional banking system, or (B) run a global phone-based payment network that relies on bitcoin and currency exchange, where I guess you'd have to pay for some expensive hedging instrument against bitcoin fluctuation (they do this for currency exchange risk but the fluctuations are generally much smaller obv).

you dont need any global phone based network or currency hedges, you transfer the money via paypal or square or w/e then its converted into yr local currency when you deposit it into yr bank account, just like would happen if you sold something on ebay to someone in england, the whole thing costs like 4%

paypal is a global money transfer network (and a bank in some countries, fwiw) and I'm sure they have currency exchange hedges

whatever you wouldnt need to is the point, the larger point is that all this is basically possible right now

also do you mean you transfer the money from your phone service account via paypal? otherwise how would you do this without a bank account or credit card?

you have a bank account via yr phone which is also capable of behaving like a debit card

it might not be a full service bank account like we recognize but its basically a bank account

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101180469

fwiw:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-28/bitcoin-service-targets-kenya-remittances-with-cut-rate-fees-1-.html

interesting

BitPesa will charge 3 percent on overseas transfers and says the money arrives the same day. At that rate, it would cost $6 to send $200 via BitPesa.

~same rate as paypal tho

I'll wager paypal doesn't allow any withdrawals to kenyan banks

It looks to me like Paypal does not serve Kenya. Also their fee for a lot of other countries appears to be 3.9%

I think they might even charge 3% to send and 3% to receive. Skimming on both sides, fucking assholes

they only charge 3% to withdraw theres no fee for sending or receiving, they can extend to kenya any time they want, lol at thinking an imaginary bitcoin operation is differentiating themselves with a .9% savings

i mean do you see hurting this is what everyone has been telling you for the last 24 hours, someone introduces a bitcoin service like you were suggesting is a game changer and they charge the same type of fee that established services already charge, and they dont even exist yet, they havent even had a chance to deal with real world complications, their naive estimation of what they need to charge is even the same as paypal!

Actually, in many countries with paypal you have to pay a 3.9% fee to "receive" the funds internationally, AND a withdrawal fee to withdraw, just fyi. Also, the the difference between a 3% fee and a 3.9% fee is nearly 25%. And the M-PESA fees appear to be higher. As for your other speculative arguments, I could just as easily speculate in the other direction -- maybe they can charge 3% because they're still the only bitcoin-based game in town and they still have competitive advantage over other options, and maybe if other bitcoin-based competitors open up shop they'll be forced to go cheaper.

Not saying you're definitely wrong, but the infrastructure of the bitcoin transfer itself is immensely cheaper than the infrastructure behind a traditional money-transfer, so the only question is whether the costs on either end cancel that savings out.

sry, MORE THAN 25%. It's actually 30%, to be exact.

Not saying you're definitely wrong, but the infrastructure of the bitcoin transfer itself is immensely cheaper than the infrastructure behind a traditional money-transfer, so the only question is whether the costs on either end cancel that savings out.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:37 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it would be kind of fun to have a discussion about bitcoiin but this sort of total belief in something you clearly know nothing about (not that any of us is an expert) is why nothing youre saying is landing with anyone itt fwiw

and like just general willful ignorance of business, do you really think paypal, a business that produced multiple millioares, couldnt cut its rates to compete

multiple billionaires sry

i mean omg a 30% difference from an imaginary company what will paypal ever do

lol if it really was this unstoppable new technology they could just make their own internal bitcoin that like actual worked

Lagoon, honestly this is a headsmackingly obvious point, like it's kind of incomprehensible to me that you are even arguing over the bolded part of that sentence. I could send you any amount of bitcoin that I owned (for the record, I own none), right now, at no cost, anywhere in the world, instantaneously. There's basically no infrastructure involved except the internet itself. I could not do the same thing, directly, with USD or any other currency.

Like you really seem to think that computers just allow you to beam money directly from point A to ponit B, like you are so used to making online payments that you think the money is just going in one end of the internet and out the other.

"Paypal could just lower fees to compete" lol, so any time a business has a cheaper way to do something, it doesn't matter, because the business with higher costs to do the same thing will just lower their fees to compete. Interesting take on capitalism.

Like you really seem to think that computers just allow you to beam money directly from point A to ponit B, like you are so used to making online payments that you think the money is just going in one end of the internet and out the other.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:17 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

im sorry to have to break this to you but thats how it works, the costs associated with running paypal are not those of beaming money all over the wold

its all 100% automated just like bitcoin

also like i said if there are somehow huge saving in one form of automation over the other it would be trivial for paypal to build their own internal bitcoin that actually works

Like you really seem to think that computers just allow you to beam money directly from point A to ponit B, like you are so used to making online payments that you think the money is just going in one end of the internet and out the other.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:17 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this depiction of me as some button pushing rube that implies you as the knowledgeable counterpart is so ridiculous, you shd goto reddit where theyve got all this stuff totally figured out

like you literally have no idea what the costs associated with moving money around the world are, you should start by admiting that, then try to build an argument from there

can't you guys see that this bitcoin beef is tearing us apart

http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/jan/30/africans-pay-most-send-money

average cost of remittance paid btw Tanzania and Kenya is 22%. But no problem, the established players in that market will just lower their fees to 3% to compete. NBD.

I could send you any amount of bitcoin that I owned (for the record, I own none), right now, at no cost, anywhere in the world, instantaneously.

don't you have to 'tip' someone to verify though

Maybe you should go set up a service in Tanzania and Kenya. Charge like 15% -- you'd undercut the competition and make a killing. I'm sure it barely costs anything to start such an operation, you just need computers so you can send money back and forth.

average cost of remittance paid btw Tanzania and Kenya is 22%. But no problem, the established players in that market will just lower their fees to 3% to compete. NBD.

― signed, J.P. Morgan CEO (Hurting 2), Thursday, January 23, 2014 1:42 PM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like i already totally explained upthread bitcoin is not competing with that, its competing with the other internet based services, i mean its not competing with anything at all right now, its non functional, paypal et al work

And all I ever said that it was possible that it could be competitive in the future.

im sure there are already millions of people all over the world getting remittance via the net and avoiding those fee but that requires the infrastructure that bitcoin also requites

they don't get remittances "via the net" they get them via a service via the net, a service that requires a lot more infrastructure to do a transfer than bitcoin does

im sure there are people who have the internet and computers who are taking advantage of internet service like paypal in just the same way you or i would

we are going in circles here

soon via the penetration of smart phones thn number of people who can do that will be pretty much all of them, there wont be any storefront money wirer nessisary

circles round the coin

poll which one of you is being trolled rn

hurting owns bitcoins is my working theory

Total speculation, but I'd say there's at least a 50/50 chance Bitcoin (or another crypto-currency like it) survives in some form. I wouldn't buy Bitcoins as an investment though.

i cld see the technology of bitcoin being useful and even crypto currencies surviving in the gray/black market but its a non starter as a major consumer tool imo

I own zero bitcoins

dogecoins?

umm...with regard to dogecoins...HEY LOOK OVER THERE!

you have to throw the stick

http://lh5.ggpht.com/RuY2VEJLX2UuilVj2-xYIpv1wcvDzx_hy5zP0cX8Ize079WcEQsNggARrpguRc-TmACLo_RjnetCXNVSN51ovjrGqPWHAfgZPlbn%3Ds630

the ole hurting gives a TED talk while lagoon heckles from the back row routine

http://ariannasimpson.com/post/74400025051/this-is-what-its-like-to-be-a-woman-at-a-bitcoin

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-01-27/men-tied-to-silk-road-bitcoin-exchange-subject-of-u-dot-s-dot-charges

Kind of surprised Bharara went after this guy, seems like a stretch. Maybe he wants to press him for info.

http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

Russia Bans Bitcoin

The Central Bank of Russia reiterated that the official currency is the Ruble, and that it considers Bitcoin a money surrogate. That’s why the cryptocurrency should be aboided

Interesting. Mt. Gox now claiming that the problems that took it offline are related to a flaw in the Bitcoin protocol itself:

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02/10/bitcoin-exchange-struggles/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

The ultimate win for the future is for people to just stop using currency in general and everyone just gets food and shelter and things and we throw away our wealth hoarding consumerist culture - like in Star Trek

Anyway I'm not sure why people think bitcoin is really any different than something like frequent flyer miles or something - anything can have value right? Havent people used things like shells for currency? Money is an idea we all believe in - but more and more it seems like technology is helping some people hoard more and more of it

This is the best (somewhat technical) explanation of what's going on that I've been able to find:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1x93tf/some_irc_chatter_about_what_is_going_on_at_mtgox/cf99yac

Things are getting interesting in Bitcoinland:

http://www.coindesk.com/massive-concerted-attack-launched-bitcoin-exchanges/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CoinDesk+%28CoinDesk+-+The+Voice+of+Digital+Currency%29

John LawMod> Scott Bateman
•an hour ago
−

⚑

John Law simply shrugs his shoulders and buys more digicoins with his morning paper.

8 △ 1 ▽

How many digicoins is your morning paper worth?

anyone into dogecoins?

good domain name for magic the gathering soon to be available

http://i.imgur.com/kvzCnG8.jpg

http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20140225&id=17378845&ocid=ansmony11

probably a good time to buy bitcoin right now really

it's never a bad time to buy bitcoins

iiiinteresting

https://blockchain.info/address/1Drt3c8pSdrkyjuBiwVcSSixZwQtMZ3Tew

I'm surprised it bounced back as much as it has -- it was as low as $400 last night, now it's at $517.

frogbs, explain?

it appears that 782,556 BTC just went through some wallet which means a ton of BTC (like, 3-4% of all that could ever exist) is being tumbled (laundered) as we speak

it's never a bad time to buy bitcoins

― iatee, Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:27 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

it appears that 782,556 BTC just went through some wallet which means a ton of BTC (like, 3-4% of all that could ever exist) is being tumbled (laundered) as we speak

― frogbs, Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:39 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Bruce Sterling ‏@bruces Protected Tweets 18m

*It would also be poetic if a genius embezzler stole 744,000 Bitcoins that, through his own theft, were reduced to utter worthlessness.

was wondering what happens to the value once all of the bitcoins are stolen

simply supply and demand if the supply goes to zero the price approaches infinity

New message up:

Dear MtGox Customers,

In the event of recent news reports and the potential repercussions on MtGox's operations and the market, a decision was taken to close all transactions for the time being in order to protect the site and our users. We will be closely monitoring the situation and will react accordingly.

Best regards,
MtGox Team

https://www.mtgox.com

In the event of recent news reports

Dear MtGox Customers,

Haha we got yr money, sucks to be you.

Best regards,
MtGox Team

In the event of recent news reports

the greatest opening clause in the history of the internet

barnabus @othersome

Follow

this is the first sign that there may be a problem in keeping pretend dollars inside your computer

1:33 AM - 25 Feb 2014

I personally believe that Mt Gox users are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh, people out there in our nation don't have bitcoin and, uh, I believe that our economy like such as in Mt Gox and, uh, the Coinbase, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our exchanges over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help Mt Gox and should help the Coinfloor and the Asian bitcoins, so we will be able to build up our future

loll (under: "Gox's new ownership")

Here is the process we are going to put in place. We've set up a wallet here:

1EgQ4pz8bEBn2LNGxgSVcTNHyS5xm1fpxZ -

If you send a small transaction to this wallet, using the wallet that originally sent coins to Gox, we will be able to trace back to your wallet once we have entered the recovery phase.

Include a note in this transaction of your reddit username and leave a comment in the thread below.

Think of this as a sort of Paypal verification step, we will send the amount back to you shortly after you've sent it and will then have your data on file to receive your Mt. Gox holdings after we've completed the recovery.

The order of processing refunds will be determined by sorting the size of the sum total of transactions sent from your source address to the verification wallet in descending order. That way there is no unfair advantage to those who saw this message first, and those who have the strongest need to recover what was lost will recover their bitcoins or fiat first.

bravo aero

Include a note in this transaction of your reddit username and leave a comment in the thread below.

So it Mt. Gox a reddit thing? Or do they just assume that the overlap ot bitcoin users and redditors is basically 100%?

ha i was guessing the latter

I think that's a joke. Sort of like saying: "Anyone who lost Bitcoins please post your bank account number, routing information, social security number and credit card information and I'll make sure you get a refund."

My friend has a mining machine that runs 24/7 and it is LOUD.

the carbon footprint of dogecoin mining

good domain name for magic the gathering soon to be available

http://www.abugames.com/images/products/magic2014m14/pillarfieldox.jpg

Very fitting text too

XP: Cryptocoin mining is has brought a worldwide shortage of the high-to-medium range AMD graphics cards for the past 3 months.

AMD graphics card pricing skyrockets due to cryptocurrency mining, could kill AMD’s gaming efforts

A typical setup would be two cards (cost $1400-$3000) drawing 700-1000 watts for the machine.

Pretty much the first time cryptocurrencies have effected me personally (I'm a big fan of Mackey's Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds), as AMD has an intriguing API (Mantle) and I'm about to build a new midrange gaming rig.

i won like .0045 of a bitcoin but cant get it because i owl ended more to have it sent to a wallet

bitcoinplus

I think someone should invent the Obamacoin

ok so there is a chance that MtGox literally just lost their private key

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/28/investing/mt-gox-bankruptcy/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

this whole thing has been amazing to watch

def feel p stupid for not getting in on this stealing bitcoins thing early

its about time this got the Taiwanese Animation treatment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVobjVZK6ho&noredirect=1

http://i.imgur.com/JFRz2QV.gif

Comments on this - http://valleywag.gawker.com/bitcoin-kingpin-admits-everyones-money-is-gone-1533315083 - are pure gold. (As is the line Funny, how these people only want anything to do with the government after they've fucked themselves over into another dimension.) My favorite:

Here's how Bitcoin works - you give your money to a beefy libertarian video game company executive in a foreign country (who speaks damn good Japanese for a Gaijin), he does some bullshit computer razzmataz, you tell all your friends "I'm free of Fiat Money - John Galt Rules!".....and then your money is gone.

OMG the "massive bitcoin boners" part

speculation!

anyway once you put your money in a bank it seems like its almost the same at a virtual currency - its just numbers in a database

numbers in a database with FDIC protection

oh yeah! (slaps forehead as bitcoins dissolve to thin air)

fiat numbers

disruption, innovation

its not much different I guess than the stock market - specualtion

yeah, but no one is claiming stocks as a new form of currency that will usher in a libertarian utopia

they should! "Can I buy a ham for three shares of Earthlink?"

YES

its pretty differnt than stocks

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/28/investing/mt-gox-bankruptcy/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

xpost xpost - yes the irony is thick "we do not need the government to deal with money" --- "Oh wait - laws prevent crimes"

seems more like a commodity than stock or currency, with all the speculation, constrained supply, wild spikes in value, like a virtual equivalent to a precious metal like gold

I mean they even call it bitcoin mining

its a fiat commodity

my other car is a fiat Fiat

Currencies are speculated on too, and occasionally a currency has wide swings in value. Hence, bitcoin is what I call a shitty currency.

its an IDEA!

it's a fiscal Esperanto for the digital age!

it's an MMO auction house for IRL!

it's the future!

People with half a brain stopped using Mt.Gox nearly a year ago. We all moved to respectable exchanges such as Coinbase, Bitstamp, and CampBX who strive to be in line with regulators and are run by people who actually understand finance. It's also important for people to understand that Mt.Gox shutting down is about the same as some rural bank in North Dakota shutting down — it hardly affects the value of the currency in which it exchanged. BTC is still hovering arbound $550 and $750 and the blockchain shows there is a buying frenzy going on because, believe it or not, this is considered cheap at the moment.

http://www.coindesk.com/bank-stops-working-bitcoin-exchange-campbx-regulatory-uncertainty/

lol

http://www.theverge.com/2014/2/15/5414610/bitstamp-restores-service-after-targeted-attack

The problems stem from a vulnerability known as "transaction malleability," which refers to an issue that would allow a user to alter transaction details to make it seem as if a transfer failed when it had actually succeeded. This week, Bitcoin core developer Jeff Garzik told The Verge that the issue is more widespread than the team initially realized. "It's mainly a nuisance," he said, "forcing everybody to stop and fix their website software and Bitcoin wallets."

I mean, if I were more cavalier about my spare money I could see throwing some into this just to see what would happen but given that until two weeks ago the whole process could be exploited by spoofing responses, it just feels like a fundamentally bad idea to view this as anything more than a crude gambling opportunity.

seems more like a commodity than stock or currency, with all the speculation, constrained supply, wild spikes in value, like a virtual equivalent to a precious metal like gold

I thought about doing some kind of discount on Magic cards for people who could prove they'd lost money on MTGOX but I decided it would offend the few possible customers who got the joke.

You should have done it anyway!

Can't even remotely relate bitcoins to stocks. I mean, stocks represent something tangible, defined, and regulated, like say a tiny percentage of the market cap of General Electric, a 100+ year old company that has consistently made profits. Bitcoins represent a "currency" that a vast majority of merchants won't accept, whose value fluctuates wildly on a whim, that is not backed by anything considered valuable, that is still growing in supply daily by random ppl willing to burn up gabs of electricity with overworked computers, that you could lose if your hard drive crashes.

this is a dumb question - but how is a bitcoin created? is there like a company that makes a bitcoin and puts it into circulation? or is the total number of bitcoins regulated?

its decentralized, theres a formula that controls their creation (they call the process mining lol), basically you run the mining program and then after a while u get some coins, you are m/l spending computer cycles on bitcoins, the more that are mined the more computer power it takes to mine new ones until eventually no more can be mined

the formula was written by an anonymous creator(s) and released into the wild now its just computers talking to computers