unrequited love

i once spent the better part of six months completely infatuated with a friend in university. shortly thereafter, we actually got together. i remember being stunned after our first kiss not because it was the realization of months of pining, but because i couldn't get over what a horrendous kisser she was!

it was the one and only time we had contact. once i actually had her, i realized that, secretly, i was never really interested.

so why did you think you had emotions for her? does everyone need a muse?

i had emotions for her because she was a good candidate/rough outline of the type of person i thought i desperately needed in my life -> my infatuations picked up from there and i subsconsciously extrapolated her into a hyper-idealized crush. conversely, because i had no grasp on my own agency in literally creating her, the crush felt so strong and so imposing that i feebly identified it as the beginnings of love.

actually, physically *being* with her forced me back into the reality of who she was (nothing bad, just nowhere near what i'd envisioned) and the crush burst like a bubble.

i don't know if everyone needs a muse. the fact that i did this probably speaks more about where i was at emotionally at the time rather than to some overarching need to constantly desire someone..

No. I'd go with following through on why you have these feelings of intensity. They must fulfil some purpose for you.

is it ever worth wrecking 5 lives to maybe satisfy 1?

no, never. but I think I can understand the urge to now.

Obviously this is bad, for 2 reasons at the very least (friend wld go apeshit possibly, and well - I'm happily taken. WHich is why this is horribly confusing).

Yes I know I'm not properly logged out.

My head's a mess.

This one.

What a sorry state of affairs.

I am 20 and in university (college). Will I get over it?

Yes, almost certainly.

What is it about it that makes me feel so insignificant.

And when will I stop being chaste/disinterested whenever I get any kind of preposition from someone else?

preposition

roffle

You can tell I study German

Fuck the next person who makes such an offer, you'll feel much better.

Truth bomb

Hmmmmm. That never worked for me. Maybe it's a guy thing. I guess it couldn't hurt to try.

Not necessarily. And it may make things a whole lot worse for the other person.

It will go away on its own. I would best reccomend overexposure to the object of your affections until you realise all of their faults and get completely sick of them. Then you'll move on of your own accord.

And that WON'T make things a lot worse for the other person?!

When I was 20 I was all about the unrequited crushes and it was horrible. I'm sorry you're going through this. One q, are you certain it's unrequited?

No, I meant worse for the 3rd party that he fucks to get over the unrequired object.

Anyway, it's all rubbish and deeply painful, but it will go away eventually. Or at least hurt a lot less.

Now I'm going back to googling for photos of Nigel Havers in cricket gear.

I'd kind of assumed the 3rd party was likely to be a stranger, my bad if not true.

I would best reccomend overexposure to the object of your affections until you realise all of their faults and get completely sick of them. Then you'll move on of your own accord.

this sounds totally mental to me, but ok.

i mean, if it's unrequited the big question is HOW, without turning into graham. otherwise the 'stick around them and you'll see their faults' bit -- well, people get married don't they?

Getting married kind of requires, um, requitement. At least in these crazy modern times.

Obv. I don't mean in a stalkerish way. But you know, spend more time getting to know them as a *person* rather than idealising them as some kind of unrequited fantasy figure. No human being can survive that kind of idealisation.

But you know, spend more time getting to know them as a *person* rather than idealising them as some kind of unrequited fantasy figure.

aka dating?

"Realising their faults" when you're in a situation like this tends to mean "find reasons why their behaviour hurts you, fixate on them and turn them into the other person's faults to make yourself feel better" when actually the thing that usually makes these things feel better is good old fashioned TIME.

TBH I'd recommend just not seeing them, not checking out what they're doing on the internet, immersing yourself in other things and other social groups, not blocking them out, but allowing yourself to heal naturally.

What if you unrequitedly love them as a person rather than as some idealised muse fantasy object, then?

the only way i ever get over unrequited crushes is by NOT spending time with them for a while

max otm.

agreed.

YMMV.

What if you unrequitedly love them as a person rather than as some idealised muse fantasy object, then?

-- Matt DC, Friday, March 28, 2008 5:26 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

otm

In my anecdotal cases, 2 of them were friends first, hence spending lots of time with them and deciding actually I'm fine being just friends, the other I accidentally moved into a shared house with (no really, this is crying out for lolstalker.jpg or whatever, but we both looked round an empty house with lots of rooms going, separately. Then when I came round to move in she answered the door) and that was more of an idealised image thing that faded when I got to know her better. I'm still friends with all parties involved.

(Nb I have actually not been in this situation for several years but that's because I kind of advocate letting the air out of the emotional balloon way before it gets to this stage).

xpost In that case I recommend trying to convince yourself you hate them, it's the only way.

the only way i ever got over unrequited crushes was when another unrequited crush came along. distance of geography and chronology made fuck all difference. hopefully this will not happen to you. focus on the hate.

and mattDC otm yes very.

you're in college. correctly or not, college is oft-said to be a place to find out who you are. (bluto.jpg) perhaps your attachment to the person was an attachment to a certain identity for yourself? if so, you have a long time ahead to get set in your ways. you also have a long time to spend with one person. maybe you should keep your mind open for now. try something different.

i think the cure for all this kinda thing is basically: have other shit to do.

It's threads that this that make me glad I don't post under my real name.

that this? like this, rather

I was still in frequent contact until lately, now I just don't know where I stand. And I'm not too cheery about the realisation that may never be able to say what I wanted to say, explain myself, stand up for myself.

I try and convince myself that I hate the person in question, this was going well until the Wikipedia article on "Stalking" told me this was a symptom of my stalkerish mind.

Overexposure is a good idea but is probably akin to stalking in the eyes of certain people.

marinating yourself in the poisoned charms of the one you cannot have seems really... time consuming? to me. also very close to boredom. without much input from the actual person, it's all coming from you. so quit it! fire up the playstation, get drunk w/ other ppl, build a model ship in a fucking bottle, whatever.

keep your hands busy and your heart will stfu

keep your hands busy and your heart will stfu

lol

go listen to disintegration

she gets married next month.

Lol, sublimation is a definite. That would explain why I write so much hateful poetry and go to random parties.

(cue whoever reminding me i have a gf and i'm a jerk, whatever)

funny i haven't fallen hard in love w/ someone i interact with normally for what seems like a decade.

lol college.

xp You're really feeling chipped about that, aren't you.

ha er not 'normally,' 'reguarly'

xp

its hard not to fall in love a lot in college, you have so much free time on your hands

it's not unrequited love, but there is a girl that i dated and am still friends with that is so awesome that she is making everyone else look bad by comparison. nothing to do but move on and try not to compare.

xpost to gff - yeah I'm really thinking back to lol uni/just after leaving, approx same age as the thread reviver. In any case, it was really more unrequited infatuation/crushing than love.

Lol Uni, I wish I went there

You're really feeling chipped about that, aren't you.

-- Laurel, Friday, March 28, 2008 5:47 PM

?

http://a949.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/124/l_64fb7427d0b8192c3ff32885bb114fec.jpg

Hi JTS,

1) Just checking: this isn't 'unrequited love from afar'...you've told the person how you feel, right? (assuming the other person is a friend vs. a total stranger who might be freaked out by abrupt disclosure, etc.) If the person is a friend and someone you feel comfortable talking with heart-to-heart, the more open the communication the better. You'll feel better that you've said your peace, and it'll be better for the way the you choose to interact (or choose not to) in the future.

2) I am with the 'spend time away from them' crowd. Keep in mind that it doesn't have to be forever (though you might just decide that it's better for you if it is; if you come to that conclusion, that's okay). Spending more time around them will just make you feel more miserable, IMO. Trying to 'hate' them or magnify their flaws will ring hollow. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you find that approach boomerangs and only ends up highlighting the other person's non-reachability and desirability.

I agree that time is the main healer here (and often it is that that provides some distance and perspective). Don't seek them out, don't avoid them either. Keep your head held high, and my guess is you'll come out a better person from this than you were, in your eyes and perhaps (but don't be holding your breath about it) the other person's.

Oops, I should qualify the above re: telling them how you feel--I'm assuming the other person isn't married.

"Trying to 'hate' them or magnify their flaws will ring hollow. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you find that approach boomerangs and only ends up highlighting the other person's non-reachability and desirability."

This is all too right. I am far too lenient and justifying to hate anyone at all, moreso this person, so distance is probably the right answer.

just generally i would advise against listening to kate

its hard not to fall in love a lot in college, you have so much free time on your hands

That, and the fact that you're surrounded by dozens of attractive members of your preferred sex on a pretty constant basis.

I dunno, I can see it, if your unrequited feelings are of a worshipping idealistic crush nature. Because you're giving all their faults a pass, and they're not giving you anything. Being exposed to that inequality all the time would prob send your love sour eventually.

The problem is I don't think the over-saturation method ever leads to friendship? Instead you more likely start to get an overall negative impression; as much as you gave them the benefit of the doubt earlier, you now resent their failures. I've done it, but it is not to be preferred unless the other person is really and truly a write-off.

Actually some of the best advice anyone's ever given me wrt this sort of thing is "spend time away from them, go out and make a million more friends, don't worry about drifting apart from her. It might happen, okay, but you need to be in the position where its okay for that to happen".

I followed that advice, it worked out, and we're still good friends.

Unrequited Love is the story of my life. From the very beginning. From 11 years old. I'm 37 now. This is the story. The repeating riff. Over. And Over. And Over. And nothing but. And Over. And Over. And Over. And OVER.

And I think Matt DC is right.

what about asynchronous love?

It's a lovely thought.

I curently have a massive crush on the guy a close friend of mine just left (amicably). I never got round to meeting him when they were together. Now we're both like "um hey wow you're ... really cool. Shit."

HAHAHAHHA ohshit I don't remember writing that... oh man. The person I was talking about there is now my boyfriend.

Go figure.

"Unrequited Love is the story of my life. From the very beginning. From 11 years old. I'm 37 now. This is the story. The repeating riff. Over. And Over. And Over. And nothing but. And Over. And Over. And Over. And OVER."

I could handle it so much better before as well.

So, JTS...any update?

It never really goes away but "keeping myself busy so my heart will stfu" is kind of true... I have a job, I have money and a new house, I'm independant for the summer, sometimes I'm proud of this, sometimes I feel its just superficial, it comes and goes in waves. However, I am still far, far from content. I just want some words, some kind of release, it's not happening and I just don't understand that much about people anymore.

Have you actually addressed it directly with the person in question? I can't see a direct answer to that anywhere above. Because if you haven't, then this is all so much pointless adolescent navel-gazing, which is just... sad, really. If you have addressed it and the other person has made it clear that this is never going to be an option, then you have to get over it.

I'm a harsh bastard about these kind of things now, at 29. I spent my adolescence finding people to be infatuated with and never doing anything about it, and I know feel that unrequited love isn't love. Loving someone requires them loving you back, I think. It's a two-way street. At least how I understand love as a workable, meaningful notion and goal. Otherwise it's just... fantasy.

Get proactive.

So i was a situation of requited infatuation, only we were both very unhappy in our long term relationships. over time we broke them off, took some time to ourselves, then hooked up. it quickly turned into mutual love that was growing fast. then her dad (who i never met but her ex was v.v. close to) died and she broke it off with me to go back with her ex and im stumped. it's really impossible to try to get over someone you love when you can't help but believe that they still really love you but are going through too much shit to think clearly. she was raised (and still is) catholic and i think is suddenly feeling guilty about not living the fairy-tale life her dad had dreamed for her.

i've been trying to keep myself busy with my new job and friends but it hasn't really helped distract me at all.

Now that's worth getting upset about. That fucking sucks.

I'm a harsh bastard about these kind of things now, at 29. I spent my adolescence finding people to be infatuated with and never doing anything about it, and I know feel that unrequited love isn't love. Loving someone requires them loving you back, I think. It's a two-way street. At least how I understand love as a workable, meaningful notion and goal. Otherwise it's just... fantasy.

I mostly agree with you, but there are times when two people are perfectly suited for each other in every important way, and even love each other -- except that Person A feels eros for Person B, and Person B can't/won't/doesn't want to reciprocate. That kind of unrequited love, when there's genuine and strong emotional attachment on both sides, is usually brutal for all concerned.

(Many people seem to think this phenomenon is limited to "clueless-indie-boy-likes-cool-girl-who-only-is-attracted-to-callous-assholes", which is usually the way this sort of trope comes up. But there are numerous other ways that two people can have "everything but" -- mismatched sexual orientations is the first one that comes to mind.)

btw, none of that is a reference to Fetchboy's post.

people need to learn to get over it and move on

its still really hard for me to believe that guys actually fall in love

???

well. maybe not LOVE so much as a crush/romantic love thing. i cant see how its possible.

???

we grew up being told the same happily-ever-after stories as girls.

well. maybe not LOVE so much as a crush/romantic love thing. i cant see how its possible.

Wait, are you saying that you don't see how guys can feel "LOVE", or feel crush/romantic love things?

I mean, if anything, it's always seemed to me that men tend to be the crazy romantics, and women the cool pragmatists.

well of course logically i know they must be able to but my gut still says no way

we grew up being told the same happily-ever-after stories as girls.

This...I'm pretty sure I see what you're saying but it's not really true, I don't think.

definitely not true, sunny. guys pine and love and stalk, etc...

what i meant is that from day one we all were taught that the best thing and ultimate goal in life is to find eternal romantic love. as guys grow, up, those pressures do start to change and push us into living for ourselves more, but storybook love sticks in the end. at least for most guys i know.

Might also be where you're from. Attractive girls around here have always had the power, as there seemed to be a lot more guys than attractive girls, and they're fully aware that the opposite sex has to choose from a small and brackish pool.

But yes, guys do fall in love, even if they have to be all John Wayne and deny it and build an airport to fly away from their feelings etc...

sunny, do you talk to dudes ever?

single dudes, i mean.

I'm with Sunny on this one. Maybe lack of evidence... or maybe guys talk about being in "love" but never actually *act* as if they have the slightest clue what it means.

all but one of my friends since 15 or so have been dudes.

In Agatha Christie's autobiography she talks about knowing when men have fallen in love with her because they suddenly start acting like a sick sheep.

it's not a word most guys throw around. i for one only say it after i'm 100% sure about it, and even then only let a few people in on the fact.

no, it's exactly right, men don't fall in love, well done

love is kinda like a big pizza pie, or so I've heard.

sunny successor, what is it like to truly fall in love?

Jerome K Jerome explains love quite well in "Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow".

(xp)i think y'all should learn how to read before you move on to the advanced questions

A lot of my guy friends talk about being into a certain girl who they feel is crush-worthy, but meanwhile continue to pick up other girls in bars and maybe see them again, maybe not. I'm not putting this entirely on the guys or saying that it makes them assholes or anything, but I think there's...a certain capacity for self-delusion involved.

Stories for men are so different than the stories for girls, though. For girls, the story is get married and live happily ever after, like it's the biggest and only thing in your life. For boys, the story is some action adventure where the girl is the reward for saving the planet, and no worries, as there will always be another reward-girl in the next film.

Totally different myths.

whatever the stories are the idea that boys don't fall in love is stupid

end of story

isn't infatuation largely based on self-delusion though anyway? sure some people mistake infatuation for love, but that doesn't mean that we don't feel genuine romantic love sometimes, too. xp

sunny successor, what is it like to read?

A lot of my guy friends talk about being into a certain girl who they feel is crush-worthy, but meanwhile continue to pick up other girls in bars and maybe see them again, maybe not

i used to not do this, i.e. if i was into someone i wouldn't really hit on other girls, but then it would usually not pan out and i would think "that was dumb, i should've just kept my options open".

Sure! An extremely pragmatic thing to do.

my male friends who have had these unrequited things have tended to be sad sack lonelyhearts dudes who never follow through on actually saying something even when given ample opportunity, even when it's logical to assume if they say something and she feels the same way she will not freak out (though in these dudes' experiences "she" never feels the same way), and seemingly would rather just pine and hang out as friends while she ends up going out with more proactive guys. the lesson to be learned is to ask out a girl sooner rather than later because it's better to know how she feels upfront rather than hoping, praying that someday she's just going to blurt out how much she loves you.

these guys without fail take shit they've seen in movies literally, imo.

I don't think my female friends who have had unrequited things have behaved any differently, really.

i think maybe perhaps what sunny is saying is that guys think they've fallen in love with these girls they're not actually in a relationship with and have never reciprocated these feelings, when in fact they're just projecting their desires onto someone who just happens to be the attractive interesting female in closest proximity to them.

the difference is that the way our society is that guys are the ones expected to make the first move and announce something so when they don't do it they beat themselves up for not having the balls to go through with it.

I dunno, I get the impression that people in the US don't really date anymore, not in the like Happy Days way when Richie would have a date with a different girl every week, and it wouldn't usually go any further than that. Now it seems like people go out once and it's like "ok we are like married now". (I am sure fucking has something to do with this.) But I think it makes people less likely to want to ask someone out, which just makes things more likely to get weird e.g. unrequited or "it's complicated" or whatever.

that happens more often than not, but it isn't universally the case.
xxp

i think maybe perhaps what sunny is saying is that guys think they've fallen in love with these girls they're not actually in a relationship with and have never reciprocated these feelings, when in fact they're just projecting their desires onto someone who just happens to be the attractive interesting female in closest proximity to them.

Hey, that's my life. (With the genders reversed.) Leave me out of this.

Lingbert, it is glorious <3

can't spell omar little without otm.

i think maybe perhaps what sunny is saying is that guys think they've fallen in love with these girls they're not actually in a relationship with and have never reciprocated these feelings, when in fact they're just projecting their desires onto someone who just happens to be the attractive interesting female in closest proximity to them.

Anyone over the age of 25 who's still doing this, male or female, needs a shrink ASAP.

yeah no shit

Also, if you're saying "that isn't love" you're OTM, but if you're saying "guys do this more than girls", that's totally not OTM -- girls go crush-shopping all the time.

...as if a shrink is some magical button that will just fix everything that is wrong in your life. 25 is too late. Sorry. We are all doomed. Next!

...as if a shrink is some magical button that will just fix everything that is wrong in your life.

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/r2-d2-princess-leia-hologram.jpg

well guys do what i said more than girls, i.e. claim that they have unrequited love when they really just haven't said anything yet to a girl they're crushing on. i understand unfulfilled crushes when it comes to girls a little more because as much as these dumb dating rules suck and are archaic, they're "expected" to not make the first move.

I'm glad sunny successor, Laurel, and Masonic Boom are honest & open about their insecurities but I hope they realize they're dead wrong

I would say the girls I know crush just as much but are a lot less likely to be sleeping with OTHER guys casually while still extolling the virtues of the loved one (whom they have never actually gone out with). But that's also maybe me being a little cynical about some of my male friends. ;)

That may be so, but I still think both sexes project their hopes and dreams onto distant and attractive people at about the same rate. I've certainly known plenty of women who were totally enamored of a guy but who wouldn't say anything, frequently because they sensed he wouldn't be interested. (And, frankly, they were often right.)

(xpost to omar)

Lingbert, it is glorious <3

-- sunny successor, Monday, August 11, 2008 8:07 PM

aw

Oh hello x-post! Um. Hardly anyone is actually reading, right? Sunny said she KNOWS logically that guys do fall in love, she just feels funny about it.

And I only said that I don't think men and women grow up with the same love myths.

I'm not actually reading btw

btw i don't think these sorts of people actually need a shrink, really, but they probably just never learned how to easily approach the opposite sex without feeling like they were going to fumble the ball. i think it's more a case of getting self confidence and not pinning all your hopes for love on one person, and therefore not giving a shit if you succeed or fail on first pass.

I see no reason why any of us should be more tolerant of a negative "gut feeling" about men than we would be about women. If Louis J. posted that he had a "gut feeling" that women were incapable of falling in love, he'd be pilloried for it.

i think there's a specific thing to the male side of this equation, though, and it really all boils down to certain types of guys maybe feeling a little weak because they don't make the move that society has designated as being theirs to make.

i think it's more a case of getting self confidence and not pinning all your hopes for love on one person

In fairness, this assumes you're not the kind of person who rarely meets someone with whom you resonate -- though this doesn't apply to crushes-from-a-distance, obviously. Still, if you're only really hitting it off with someone once in a great while, it's a lot harder to "move on and get over it" (or whatever Jordan wrote).

xpost Maybe so, I'll buy that, actually

Yes but for context: sunny only recently realized that pickles are made from cucumbers. Personally I'm inclined to extend some obliviousness latitude here.

xp I'm listening to omar quite intently, I think he may be right about some things.

I mean, actually I think some of the increased contempt for male sad-sack lonelyhearts comes from our belief that men are supposed to DO something about it; that's a belief that deserves questioning/interrogating.

^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd write about mine and Em's relationship to illustrate how men can and do feel LOVE, but it'd probably seem really cheesy and boastful and weird.

well guys do what i said more than girls, i.e. claim that they have unrequited love when they really just haven't said anything yet to a girl they're crushing on

it is possible to know when someone isn't interested in a certain way without expressly asking them.

I mean I guess we're talking about a very embryonic "love" here but plenty of relationships begin with this. sure, an actual relationship requires work and communication and actually knowing each other, but without the sort of intangible spark none of those things would matter.

And I think it's perfectly possible for someone to feel that for another person and know they don't feel the same. Especially cos a lot of the time when both people feel that way something happens instantly.

ummmm, anyone is supposed to DO something about it. Sure there are more expectations for men, but if you don't go after what you want you don't have the right to bitch about how you don't have it. XXP

i think with a lot of people, the pain comes from not being able to easily have this longed-for chemistry with the person they're interested in. so they kind of try to figure out a way to express something to this person and hope the chemistry suddenly appears in that moment, but deep down they know it's not going to happen so they continue to pine away. i'm just talking here, theorizing, this might be wrong.

Yes but for context: sunny only recently realized that pickles are made from cucumbers. Personally I'm inclined to extend some obliviousness latitude here.

-- Laurel, Monday, August 11, 2008 3:24 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

haha this is true

there's something here about the total death of formal and traditional society -- in the "good old days" men didn't know how to talk to women, either. people were introduced in highly class- and tribe-bound ways. i mean, the classic melancholy lover was someone who was explicitly prevented by laws of god and man from getting near his object.

with all of that gone, a new set of myths have arisen that any man should be able to "make it happen" and get the ball rolling with any woman he sees, but nobody has any idea how to actually do this w/o looking like a fool or a sociopath (cue lots of snake-oil programs on how to be a better fool & sociopath, etc...)

People have tried to explain what sunny does or might mean, but I still don't get it. I'm a guy, and I've fallen in love. On the other hand, I don't confuse crushes, lust, need, projection, affection, romantic imagination or plain old proximity for love, and I think that's all you get in a young/new/potential relationship.

Do guys crush out? Hell, yeah. Do they construct elaborate romantic fantasies about the "perfect person" and go around all day thinking about them? Past a certain, idealistic (teen)age, not so much. I'm just not sure what you mean, sunny. Clarify?

ummmm, anyone is supposed to DO something about it. Sure there are more expectations for men

The second half of this is my whole point: why should there be more expectations for men?

i think with a lot of people, the pain comes from not being able to easily have this longed-for chemistry with the person they're interested in. so they kind of try to figure out a way to express something to this person and hope the chemistry suddenly appears in that moment, but deep down they know it's not going to happen so they continue to pine away.

Truth bomb. I think most people are actually really good at sensing whether someone is genuinely interested, but when you're super-attracted to that person, you want to ignore your intuition, because it's hard to reconcile yourself to "never".

i have a friend who seems to be in thrall to "the game" and its myriad knockoffs. he's a nice dude but watching him in action is like watching a horrible creepy mime show.

Still, if you're only really hitting it off with someone once in a great while, it's a lot harder to "move on and get over it" (or whatever Jordan wrote).

eh. i've dated a couple girls over the last couple years who i thought were amazing, but if they don't feel the same way about me (or just aren't trying to be in a relationship at the time) then that's how it goes. it's not like i'm going to convince them otherwise.

xxxxxp

oh i dont mean real love i mean the goo goo ga ga crushy type love

I totally have a huge goo goo ga ga crush on this girl I'm seeing now

here's something here about the total death of formal and traditional society -- in the "good old days" men didn't know how to talk to women, either. people were introduced in highly class- and tribe-bound ways. i mean, the classic melancholy lover was someone who was explicitly prevented by laws of god and man from getting near his object.

I am v v interested in this line of discussion. I usu don't date because I don't like the avenues of meeting people that are open to me as a 30-something single New Yorker -- wd prefer a more mannered and softer sell. Am currently with someone who very smartly kept his pursuit very polite, even "old fashioned".

eh. i've dated a couple girls over the last couple years who i thought were amazing, but if they don't feel the same way about me (or just aren't trying to be in a relationship at the time) then that's how it goes. it's not like i'm going to convince them otherwise.

Fair enough, though I do have a question: do you think you can handle this gracefully now because you're more mature, or because you just don't feel as much as you once did? For many people, I think it's definitely more the latter -- their resilience comes from closing themselves off, caring less, hoping less. That sometimes leads to trouble when they do meet someone great.

xpost Yeah, sunny, you're nuts, practically every guy I know who isn't super-date-rapey has gone through a gooey-ga-ga phase at least once or twice

("you're nuts" = with goodwill, not disdain)

http://www.razzamatazz.co.uk/uploads/images_products_large/2206.jpg

their resilience comes from closing themselves off, caring less, hoping less

^^^i thought this was maturity?

honestly if more people had better manners about making introductions at least half of this shit would be cleared up. "who were we just talking to?" "oh, that's my friend (x), she's super cool" "uh yeah"

No, I don't think so, though it masquerades as such

xpost

(I think it's closer to the heady cocktail of cynicism, bitterness, and resignation that poisons most of us sooner or later)

goole otm

I very much remember a time when I would have been sad and angry at someone saying that was "maturity" but now it seems so clear and sensible that it's certainly PART of maturing. The old puppy-ish-ness certainly never did anything but poison my chances before they could hardly grow.

I think Jordan has maybe painted a bleaker picture than is necessary, but a certain...restraint of expectation is certainly something that comes with realizing it's not the only chance you'll ever have, and that every little hurt does pass and look silly after a while, probably on some day when you're having an awesome time w yr friends while doing something cool and you realize that crush person who rejected you wasn't making your life any better etc etc.

pretty spot on imo

I understand what you're saying, but for many people that seems to translate, in practice, to something more like a general indifference. The ideal is obviously to be capable of both openness and self-protection, and to switch between those modes (or all the degrees in between) as appropriate. But it seems like quite a few people, once switched "off", never really switch back "on", and that's not maturity.

To put it differently, I think maturity is characterized by self-knowledge, flexibility, and resilience, rather than by surrounding yourself with so much armor that by the time something good comes around, you can't be reached or touched by it. (Challops, I know.)

I very much remember a time when I would have been sad and angry at someone saying that was "maturity" but now it seems so clear and sensible that it's certainly PART of maturing. The old puppy-ish-ness certainly never did anything but poison my chances before they could hardly grow.

okay I totally agree with that, you need to be able to recognise when you're about to go overboard, to actually get in a relationship.

of course there's a danger in becoming switched off like that, but I suppose the effects of human restraint/shyness are quite sad anyhow, if you put them under the microscope, and go way beyond just romantic relationships.

I don't mean to make assumptions abt you, CRN, but maybe it looks a bit different from the perspective of someone who overthinks everything already, and can whip a hope for the future into an entire drama in the course of a couple of hours? I don't regret outgrowing that kind of thing one single bit where dating is concerned.

You could say that it was beaten out of me through the dating process, or you could just say that it happens naturally when yr real life starts looking better than the one you imagine having (with that certain someone else and all the chances of disaster that come with).

Actually to continue with that turn of phrase, the future success of my current romants might hinge on the fact that being around him IS my real life, I don't have to imagine it and I don't even really want to discuss "it" as such, because it's already happening. This...calm and undramatic quality is prob the thing I'm enjoying the most.

Oh, don't get me wrong -- I'm all for perspective and some degree of restraint, and planning a wedding after the first date is, among other things, not a good survival strategy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is while reining in the puppyish-ness is obviously crucial, it's also important to do it in a way that doesn't involve switching yourself off. (Which is pretty much what Ronan said, and what I already said.) I think one can be emotionally present without drama, and calm without being callous or cynical; equanimity is definitely not the same as apathy.

There's also the backhanded danger that becoming too much of a present-day cynic can lead a person to idealize the past. Memories of a time when you actually did feel things can be dangerously seductive when compared to a present that, no matter how good it might look on paper, seems hollow because you've learned to anesthesize yourself as a way of coping. So many people end up at a point where the only emotions they feel are ones based on fear and anger, you know?

I'm sure that's true, but I don't think I know many people who fall on that side of Hard Knocks, mostly everyone I can think of still believes the world will show them beautiful things eventually. Or at least they go in phases, and in a couple of months they come out even again.

Can only think of one really unreachable person and while he has taken a lot of damage over his lifetime, his mindset is still a choice.

I dunno, it's v easy to become v negative when you're single too, I find it that way anyhow. tho maybe possible to change that when you meet the right person as opposed to just another possible.

Goole runs this thread I'm telling you guys

good thread, despite the guy-bashing in the middle

i don't have the time / reliable internet connection to reply to this like i want, but i want to agree with most of what crutis and charlie rose have said --

i think many men face conflict between the traditional, antique, etiquette-bound idealized love myths of classical film, antique television, shavian and shakespearean romance, etc. that are beloved as art, and vocally, by many women, and hypersexual, braggart and braggadocio hook-up dude disposable culture maxim or the game nonsense favored as part of 'guy' culture. in the sense that one image is wussy but largely conscionable, and the other is acceptably manly but assholish, there is really no 'right' model for behavior. whenever one draws close to either pole, one is chided for unseemly behavior.

since guys who follow 'the game' type shit tend nearly universally to be aggro, and guys who follow romantic models largely passive, there is an obvious opportunity for posturing and bullying -- which leads to deepening feelings of romantic inadequacy on behalf of the more passive men. moreover, i think the bullying is not limited strictly to men.

the game type shit that you refer to remy is kind of funny because i happen to have a couple friends who were/are "sensitive men" and who got tired of not getting laid due to their "conscionable behavior" ie. "respecting women" so much that you're afraid to make a move. dudes are getting laid now and they seem much happier because of it. making moves/playing the game doesn't necessarily make you some aggro frat dude. sounds like im defending the "game" but im really not, what im saying is dudes need to approach women more, they are not that scary.

i do not know anyone who has found "respecting women" to be an impediment to getting laid

what im saying is dudes need to approach women more, they are not that scary.

i don't disagree, oscar. however:

using a book that self-promotes as 'using the secret language of pickup artists' for the purposes of sexual seduction is kind of definitionally exploitative, if not close to borderline sociopathic.

haha " i meant that in jest, but what i meant is "respecting women" for many of these passive types means not making sexual advances or being roundabout about it, or exhibiting shy, passive aggressive/ manipulative behavior that really screams "i want you to have sex with me ! but i am gonna be a "nice guy" about it, which is really just an act of insecurity and manipulation that ends up disrespecting women.

using a book that self-promotes as 'using the secret language of pickup artists' for the purposes of sexual seduction is kind of definitionally exploitative, if not close to borderline sociopathic.

agreed.

ahh, otcha.

I agree with the idea that not making a move certainly != "respecting women", and that dudes need to approach women more. However, I think striking a balance between "sensitive dude" and "game-playing asshole" is harder than it sounds -- especially if what you're looking for is love, rather than just sex.

(Hell, it's hard enough when you are just looking for sex -- it's tricky to behave with decency and respect and kindness, but without getting sucked into a relationship you don't really want to have. No one really wants to be accused of using someone, but that "in-between" territory is remarkably hard to carve out.)

Part of the problem is that the guys who are best are playing the game are usually the ones who don't really give a shit about the women they're pursuing -- or perhaps more accurately, aren't really attached to them as individuals. It's a lot easier to be smooth and self-confident if you don't really care, if the person herself doesn't matter to you in any significant way. That's fine for getting laid, but I suspect it isn't a great basis on which to build a love-relationship.

So basically, the issues involved in trying to get laid are mostly-not-the-same as the issues involved in trying to get something going with someone with whom you'd like to have something more.

So basically, the issues involved in trying to get laid are mostly-not-the-same as the issues involved in trying to get something going with someone with whom you'd like to have something more.

I agree with this to a certain degree, but this is a thread on unrequited love, right ? Meaning what you said about "getting something going that might turn into something" would require SOMEONE to make an advance. My point is whether you want to get laid or you want to fall in love, or you want to have a short affair, whatever the case may be, you have to approach. That's it, no bones about it. Hey, I wish more women would approach men sure, but right now for the most part women they DON'T. So what am I gonna do about it ? Sit around and read 19th century poets, while i pine in the distance ? This mentality is coo if you are in high school, but after a while it can be a tad pathetic, no ?

yes, but (to play devil's advocate) at least it only fucks up one person, instead of two.

i think many men face conflict between the traditional, antique, etiquette-bound idealized love myths of classical film, antique television, shavian and shakespearean romance, etc. that are beloved as art, and vocally, by many women, and hypersexual, braggart and braggadocio hook-up dude disposable culture maxim or the game nonsense favored as part of 'guy' culture. in the sense that one image is wussy but largely conscionable, and the other is acceptably manly but assholish, there is really no 'right' model for behavior. whenever one draws close to either pole, one is chided for unseemly behavior.

since guys who follow 'the game' type shit tend nearly universally to be aggro, and guys who follow romantic models largely passive, there is an obvious opportunity for posturing and bullying -- which leads to deepening feelings of romantic inadequacy on behalf of the more passive men. moreover, i think the bullying is not limited strictly to men.

-- remy bean, Tuesday, August 12, 2008 4:59 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

God, I don't even know what to make of this. This is brilliant stuff. I can't even read the rest of the thread after that. Well done, remy.

xpost haha remy, that is funny logic. i would counter with this;

I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations - one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it - you will regret both.

Soren Kierkegaard

xxpost also to be serious, approaching a girl is not going to fuck her up, she can take it. that is if she is a sane rational woman, the kind anyone would want in the first place. (hopefully)

My point is whether you want to get laid or you want to fall in love, or you want to have a short affair, whatever the case may be, you have to approach. That's it, no bones about it.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you, really! But I also don't think that's what at issue, exactly.

I think part of the problem is that...how to phrase this...women often make a point of not putting themselves in situations in which a guy could comfortably make a move, if they don't like the guy. I've noticed that serendipitous situations crop up a hell of a lot more with women who reciprocate my interest.

Of course, some of that's a no-brainer -- almost everyone makes themselves more available to people they're interested in, right? And I'm sure more than one woman reading this thread can probably think of a time that she consciously avoided being alone with a guy who clearly liked her, but whom she didn't like back.

But I sometimes wonder whether we overlook stuff like this when we tell quote-unquote sensitive guys to "man up" or whatever. I mean, I think aggro guys, or at least guys who play the game, sometimes get laid by basically ignoring a woman's body language and just persisting until she gives in -- treading that fine line between coaxing and coercion -- whereas a "sensitive" guy will read that she's not open to it, and will back off, maybe too soon.

Why those tactics work, and how they serve both parties involved, is a topic for an entirely different thread, of course...

xpost

I don't think there's really any danger that it'll fuck a girl up, unless she was raised in a convent or something. I think the worry is more that it might fuck up a friendship (if you're friends), or it might meet with a scathing putdown or lead to unpleasant gossip.

That's something, by the way, I've never understood -- why some women get so, for want of a better word, offended when the "wrong" guy, i.e. someone unattractive or otherwise unworthy, approaches them. I acknowledge that women have to deal with shitloads of unwanted attention, plus the whole burden of feeling guilty about saying "no", and so forth. But there's usually no need to burn the guy, or to talk shit about him behind his back. I've never really been on the receiving end of that, thankfully, but I've seen it happen more than a few times, and it just seems so wantonly cruel to me.

I don't think there's really any danger that it'll fuck a girl up, unless she was raised in a convent or something. I think the worry is more that it might fuck up a friendship (if you're friends), or it might meet with a scathing putdown or lead to unpleasant gossip.

That's something, by the way, I've never understood -- why some women get so, for want of a better word, offended when the "wrong" guy, i.e. someone unattractive or otherwise unworthy, approaches them. I acknowledge that women have to deal with shitloads of unwanted attention, plus the whole burden of feeling guilty about saying "no", and so forth. But there's usually no need to burn the guy, or to talk shit about him behind his back. I've never really been on the receiving end of that, thankfully, but I've seen it happen more than a few times, and it just seems so wantonly cruel to me.

I agree that making an advance on a "friend" can lead to unpleasantness or whatnot which is why if I like a girl, I express it. Doesn't have to be some overt standing on the top of the mountain statement, just enough to where she knows I don't "just want to be friends", if she reciprocates, awesome, if she doesn't, I move on. I think that's why unrequited love for the most part is kinda dud, it just shows a lack of initiative. Also, if a guy is friends with a girl and then waits around for months, even years, to make this grand statement, i mean cmon, does this usually work out ? I'm sure it has, and can, but overall it just doesn't, why ? Because by that time girl or guy no longer views that person in that way and simply can't, even if they wanted to.

My girlfriend is a good example of this kinda situation exactly. She had a guy friend who she had known for years, this was before I met her. They got along fine, I met her, and then we got together and her guy friend continued to be around as usual. I had no problem with him whatsoever, then like 2 years into our relationship he drops a bomb on her. Says that he loved her, always had etc. Even though my gf was shocked she was still nice to him, because that's just how she is. Eventually he got mad when she didn't reciprocate this grand love for him and told him she was happy in our relationship. What did it reveal about him ? That this guy was ultimately a spineless, passive aggressive , manipulative dude who all of a sudden decides to make a move. Let's just say my gf eventually ended their friendship, because she realized he had been for his all his "nice guy" mask really just a fraud. Someone who didn't know himself, esteem himself enough to just make a simple statement of intent towards her, when he might have a had a chance, early on in their contact. That's why I say, make your move and make it early to avoid unpleasantness to all parties involved.

And to what you said about women getting offended if the "wrong guy" approaches them, sure it happens and it is FUCKED. However, it doesn't happen as often as you would think and even if it does,(as long as the guy doesn't come off like some crazy creep) would you even want to date a girl who is going to make backstabbing comments about you just because you expressed a smattering of interest ? I think not.

That's something, by the way, I've never understood -- why some women get so, for want of a better word, offended when the "wrong" guy, i.e. someone unattractive or otherwise unworthy, approaches them. I acknowledge that women have to deal with shitloads of unwanted attention, plus the whole burden of feeling guilty about saying "no", and so forth. But there's usually no need to burn the guy, or to talk shit about him behind his back.

Are you honestly suggesting this does not happen in the reverse, as well? Because I can assure you it fucking does, and it hurts us just as much, and girls can be just as unforthcoming about approaching guys, and only crush from afar, and be humiliated when the guy says no and then makes a joke about it to his mates.

I'm not entirely speaking from my own experience here, but I've also watched other female friends suffer tremendously with this. And, I have sen plenty of guys make anime-eyes and be compeltely smooshy and hopeless over women they cant have. Such stereotyping going on here!

I agree, Trayce, it definitely happens both ways. And either guy or girl that acts in that way is not worth anyone's time anyways.

Pretty much everything you say is OTM, and is stuff that I learned to do a lot more of, once I hit my mid-twenties or so. (I'm in a happy couple now, so all this stuff is currently a non-issue for me.)

I think a lot of the angsty, inhibited stuff happens when both people are in the same circle of friends, same classes, same workplace, etc., and have to see each other all the time. I suspect a lot of long-term lonelyhearts are in that kind of situation, where there really can be a cost if you say something and the other person isn't interested. People get weird and awkward about this stuff, even if one person (either one) is totally cool about it; some girls get super-uncomfortable if a guy they don't like asks them out, and I don't fully understand why.

(Not to mention situations where the other person is seeing someone, let alone if you're friends with that someone. I think we've all seen situations where Guy A likes Girl B, who's dating Guy C, who's not really that into her, and Guy A thinks "Why can't she be with me, I'd be so into her!" And between Guy A's overearnestness and Girl B's penchant for dudes who are distant and hard-to-get, it never goes well.)

Your girlfriend's ex-friend sounds like classic stereotypical quote-unquote "nice guy" behavior. Especially inexcusable is the fact that he got mad when she didn't reciprocate, rather than gracefully accept it. Good riddance.

xpost

I think it happens both ways, but I have to say that I've seen a LOT more of it from women -- the eye-rolling, the "Can you believe he thought...?" And especially, above all, the characterizing of totally normal behavior as "creepy", or whatever, because they're not attracted to the guy in question.

Also, if you want to be cynical, I think some guys don't do the "burn" because if they know a girl is attracted to them, they like to keep the option open of a future booty call.

Now that I think about it, in the last 5-6 years, the only really unrequited-ish situations I've been in myself have involved girls with boyfriends, where I felt as if I couldn't make a move because I'd seem like too much of an asshole if it wasn't reciprocated. (I have few qualms about breaking up couples if I feel a strong, clearly-mutual spark with someone.)

None of them were poem-writing heart-rending bullshit, mind you; just serious multi-level attraction. I only made a move on one (of three), and was unexpectedly and totally successful: she and her boyfriend broke up, we started dating, and it was great.

In retrospect, I regret not making moves on the other two, at least one of whom probably would've reciprocated -- though she turned out to be crazy, so maybe I made the right decision after all. But I think I would enjoy having memories of kissing her, even so.

I have few qualms about breaking up couples

(Lest I seem like too much of an asshole, those qualms include: if they seem happy; if the guy's a good friend; if they have kids; etc.)

I can't say I've ever been the eye-rolling type when someone I'm not interested in has expressed interest or flirted or whatever. But I have to admit, I *have* kind of felt rather uncomfortable when I'm totally not wanting the attention - single or otherwise. And I have to admit, I suspect that has made my behaviour towards a few people a little on the awkard and blunt side if I felt they weren't getting the hint. It is a bit unpleasant having to be that "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" person to someone who's really nice but just not who you're after.

Erm not that I'm trying to suggest I've had to fight off the hordes or anything, ha.

just when I thought I had nothing to contribute to this thread... an old crush re-surfaced today. But it's more of an unrequited lust than gaga crushy love tbh. :P and it's mutual too (just gotta trust me on this, it's past the point where I'm prob imagining things). the only problem is that we're not in the same social circle and have never spoken to each other beyond exchanging nervous "Hi"s in class/elevator before both totally chickening out on starting any sort of conversation. How do I get past this? I have no problems starting conversations with random people except dudes i have the hots for.

I've never understood -- why some women get so, for want of a better word, offended when the "wrong" guy, i.e. someone unattractive or otherwise unworthy, approaches them.

I hear you, because I'm so guilty of this. HOWEVER before you crucify me, I don't go to bars to meet guys, I go with my friends to be with my friends, and I purposefully don't make eye contact or want to seem open to any approaches. If guys want to overlook all those things and also my unenthusiastic responses to questions like "I'm a New York City fireman, what do you do?" and "Budweiser? Let me buy you a real beer." then I don't worry too much about their feelings past that.

NB: That wd be more likely at a bar NOT my local or a place where we knew lots of people; our usual hang-outs aren't pick-up joints so that whole conversation would never happen. But lots of NY bars are kind of obnoxious on the weekends.

A lot of my guy friends talk about being into a certain girl who they feel is crush-worthy, but meanwhile continue to pick up other girls in bars and maybe see them again, maybe not. I'm not putting this entirely on the guys or saying that it makes them assholes or anything, but I think there's...a certain capacity for self-delusion involved.

-- Laurel, Monday, August 11, 2008 2:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

i byproduct of teenage rejection. i know girls who do similar things, crushing on one dude but still seeing other people ... or maybe this is 'male' behavior

a byproduct, rather

its basically like you get rejected by someone you pined for and realize the all eggs in one basket thing is probably not the best maneuver

i don't think anyone can really love the other as s/he is.

most important thing to realize when there's unrequited love: you really didn't love the other, but some image of her/him. when i was 14 yrs i had a HUGE crush. it was painful and also painfully obvious to everyone around me, even though i thought i was hiding it well. then suddenly i just... woke up and realized i wasn't really loving him but some idea of him.

i dont think thats applicable in all scenarios. you can fall for someone you know very, very well who just doesnt feel 'romantically' to you. its obv not worth it, Jordan otm about not wasting time liking someone who doesnt like you the way you deserve, but i dont think its always a fantasy or projection of an idealized person

idea =/ idealized version of said person. (but of course mostly it's idealized)

i like remy's post too but can someone define "romantic inadequacy" ?

oscar very pragmatic and otm

i think worse than this unrequited bullshit is meeting someone who you totally vibe with and is way into you, but lives 4 - 18 hours away.

4-18 hours away? Does that mean sometimes you fly, and sometimes you drive...or what?

at least you're kinda guaranteed to do the wang dang doodle every time you see them, unless you fuck things up

nah, there was a girl who lives in nyc and a girl who lives in minneapolis.

i think long-distance relationships are terrible and i can't just move after meeting someone, so it's like "oh well".

yah long distance BLOWS

"I'm a New York City fireman, what do you do?"

If only . . .

Mary, next time I'll push him your way! Actually if you were there he would obviously have chatted you up, instead of me. I was sort of shocked he bothered (I seem to recall I was in fact READING and he interrupted).

i just dont get crushes - problem solved!

I see men as potential sex partners first, then potential boyfriends later.

I agree with most everything I have read here. Crushes are infatuations that usually pass. They tend to be entertaining for fantasy life and for me, give me a purpose to get up and out the door. It's not something that's ever been acted upon except once in high school and back to the original topic, it was better than I had hoped; we dated a little while but ultimately had nothing in common. I was really glad though at the time that he asked me out and I told him that I had been crushing on him for a year and he said he had been doing the same with me. It was a good ending.

Really being in love, I think takes more time to learn about each other it’s not just a lusty crushy thing although it can start that way. I still am in love with a man I knew more than 15 years ago, and we split up and each of us married someone else. It’s so silly that I still think of him from time to time (we’re both divorced now).

My problem with men is I have what I am now forever going to call “Remy Syndrome” after Remy who so eloquently cut me open and exposed my insides!

I have the fairytale romantic classic movie model ideal man such as Cary Grant, Sean Connery etc. A suave, sophisticated, manly man. This is the image I have pegged as my type. Does this even exist anymore on the planet? I also enjoy the thought of the classic “old fashioned date” of… you go out and learn about each other, share likes, dislikes, communalities (or not) and don’t just jump into bed. Sure I can and have had, casual sex just like most people, but not once has it led to a real relationship nor do I think that either party had it in mind as a long term though when hopping into the sack, so the expectation wasn’t even there. You can have great sex just for fun, but it’s IMO so much better and interesting if you love the person, they love you back and you have something to talk about when you’re done. I guess I am saying that when I am old and sex isn’t as high of a priority, I want to have a friend who loves me and that I love and we can still laugh and hold hands and enjoy each other. But I think the days of these “simple and old fashioned dating ways and “gentlemen” have disappeared. It’s like the typewriter, it’s become obsolete and not a part of the current culture.

The men I meet now who are attracted to me seem to all be the very passive soft less aggressive men, and because I have a strong personality, they are too easily dominated by my personality and in my head turn into Casper Milquetoasts and I quickly lose interest and all respect for them, and I do end up being a bit of a bully which is NOT attractive in a woman. It’s all brainwashing from too much idealized old stereotypes I am afraid. Am I doomed to be alone forever? I am a dreamer…I know…

old-fashioned dating can be a great way to have in depth conversation and really learn about each other, but i've usually really gotten the best conversations after and between sex. although pre-sex conversations can really help lay the groundwork for the others.

I think it happens both ways, but I have to say that I've seen a LOT more of it from women -- the eye-rolling, the "Can you believe he thought...?" And especially, above all, the characterizing of totally normal behavior as "creepy", or whatever, because they're not attracted to the guy in question.

i think this is more of a weird social pressure thing rather than gender difference though - if someone's in a crowd then there's a difference in expectations of how they should behave; with guys it might be a jokey brushoff, to underline their masculine detachment from such frivolous hook-ups, whereas with women there'd be an expectation to reestablish the purely aesthetic order, of being too good for someone, above the likes of those crawling around spitting chat up lines. right? i don't think it hooks into some inherent feminine spite or anything, just differences in group dynamics.

unrequited love for someone you've just found out is recently engaged = sleepless megadud

you go out and learn about each other, share likes, dislikes, communalities (or not) and don’t just jump into bed.

I'm not the sleep around / bounce from girl to girl type, so don't get the wrong idea, but the one time a girl and I ever said to each other, "hey, let's not go straight to the sack because you know how that can get" wound up being the worst relationship of my life. Just the worst!

it’s IMO so much better and interesting if you love the person, they love you back and you have something to talk about when you’re done.

Definitely agree here. Not to put down that kind of rapturous, spontaneous heart attack sex with a near stranger, but it's just better.

One time I finally hooked up with one of my biggest crushes of the preceding 2-3 years. We made out, and then on her next visit to town we slept together. It was sublime and also sweet - but I think the goodness of it had a lot to do with us being best friends by this point, which I don't think would have been possible if a) I'd been more annoying about being in love with her and b) she hadn't been so groovy about understanding it (I'd confessed it to her a year or two previous in somewhat cornball terms) so we could just leave it on the table as a fact and actually not that big a deal in the midst of whatever other good times we were having as friends.

Also it helped that she had no flaws.

It's quite a relief when you find it's unrequited, or maybe that's wishful thinking.

I don't get it

Over this. Over over over over this. Lol time.

^^^This guy. I keep forgetting there's another long-term baby Brit ILXor. Keep goin' dude!

Thanks, I pretty much worked out these are supposed to be the best years of my life, I was draining away far, faaaar too much of my time on someone whose sarcasm, sensitivity and self loathing I only admired because they reminded me of myself. Thank fuck I've moved away from all that.

Plus this year, out of the unexpectedly, is something that is less akin to kicking a dead dog, so I'm gonna go with it.

oh i didn't know you had a crush on me