The Byrds: Classic Or Dud

Search: anything written abt the first UK tour (1965?), said (well, someone once said it to me) to be the LOUDEST thing anyone had till then heard. Not prettines: VOLUME. You don't get that on the records.

Destroy: anything anyone has ever called Byrdsy.

(And what about Duane Allman, or one of those dudes?)

My opinions on which of his albums was 'best' change from day to day but I suspect you're reacting a bit too strongly to ALS's being highly rated.

All the songs on Mr. Tambourine Man are gorgeous, euphoric. I haven't listened to their later songs in a long time, but 'Chestnut Mare' stands out. I mean there's a point when you can imagine the guy throwing the lasso - infinitely gentle but a conquest nonetheless - what a great idea for a song!

I didn't know what 'Bells of Rhymney' was about until now, but that makes it interesting. At the end of Fifth Dimension, two of the band members talk for a long time, and it's all about the idealism of the sixties in the U.S. So it could just have been profound innocence and optimism at that stage that made them decide to perform a song about a disaster as a 'pop-art abstracted jangle' - not that this is something that needs to be defended. If indie pop bands look back to the Byrds, it must be for this reason.

As for the Byrds, Classic of course. Don't know of many other bands with at least four great songwriters - Gene Clark, McGuinn, Hillman and even Crosby back in the day - who could also sing, play, produce etc. Everything after 'Sweetheart of the Radio' is patchy, and DESTROY the terrible 'reunion' alb they made in the early 70s.

The M/H/C/C/C line up did Mr Tambourine Man/Turn!Turn!Turn!/Fifth Dimension. (OK, I know Gene was missing for most of 3D) All excellent, especially the debut and 3D. I always felt that TTT has a couple of slow songs (He was a Friend of Mine/Lay Down Your Weary tune) which drag compared to the debut, and some of the harmonies are sicklier than they need to be. It does contain Gene Clark's monumental "The World Turns All Around Her" though. Each of these three albums contains one abomination - We'll Meet Again, Oh Susanna! and The Lear Jet Song respectively.

Part 2, exit Gene, but Chris Hillman ALMOST makes up for this on "Younger Than Yesterday" by writing Time Between/Girl with No Name and and a couple of others. We're heading in a Country-ish direction though. Watch Out! Oh, and best song is Crosby's "Everbody's Been Burned", although he deserves to be horribly disfigured for subjecting us to the horror that is "Mind Gardens". Ignoring this horror - another great album. Less than a year on, and Crozza has gone too, but contributed some good stuff to the heady "Notorious Byrds Brothers". Surprise, surprise it's great too, but very different to what went before. McGuinn this time supplies the obligatory clunker with "Space Oddessey", which also serves as the "song about space flight or flying" which all Byrds albums must have. Best track - Goffin and King's "Goin' Back.

So parts one and two - Classic. On to Phase 3, and this is where it gets choppy. I have never understood the attraction of Gram Parsons, and just cannot get into "Sweetheart of the Rodeo". Just too country for me, I guess. I also think that McGuinn's reputation is extremely tarnished from here on in. For a start, as 'leader' of the band he doesn't exactly contribute many good songs. Then again, maybe he never did - if I had to make a c-90 of the best of the Byrds, I'd start with Gene Clark's songs, cherry pick from Crosby, put on all of Chris Hillman's and THEN get onto McGuinn. The other big problem is that he let some real fools into the band, and what's worse - let them WRITE! Yep, Skip Battin I mean YOU! And Gene Parsons.

While I'm on the subject of Parsons' - has there ever been a drummer more unsuited to the band he found himself in? Clearly the Byrds needed a sympahetic, supportive drummer to replace M. Clarke. What do they get - a flash, domineering idiot who couldn't keep time. Just listen to the live side of "Untitled" or the Fillmore album if you don't believe me.

The last phase is not without merit - you get Clarence White's boggling country-psyche picking, and "Untitled" is a spirited effort, but to me The Byrds means "Mr Tambourine Man through to "Notorious...", and is effortlessly Classic.

Point of information: as far as I can make out, the lyric of 'Chestnut Mare' is based on a tall tale at the beginning of Ibsen's Peer Gynt, with a horse substituted for a stag. This may not be quite right: there may have been another, more local source which had the same root as Ibsen; or McGuinn and Ibsen might both have been drawing on a very old source. But the resemblance (and genealogical relation) is not in doubt.

Strange feature of the interview on the end of the CD: McGuinn and Crosby taking each others' names.

McGuinn has never been coy about acknowledging Coltrane, as far as I know - he's always seemed up-front about it to me, almost to the point of banging on excessively. I certainly don't hold that against the Byrds; and indeed I like it when people say that 'Eight Miles High' is their favourite 45 of all time.

Please don't Destroy anyone who's ever been called Byrdsy. I'm all scared now.

x0x0x

i hate country music.

search: _chronic town_, _murmur_, husker du's take on "eight miles high."

Don't worry about it Sundar, nobody's perfect ;).

The Byrds = Classic. I don't listen to them all that often, but they sing pretty and I've liked almost everything I've heard by them.

So, Search for : "I know my Rider" and "Eight Miles High [RCA version] (extra tracks on the reissue of 5D) "All The Things" (from Untitled), "Don't Make Waves" (extra track on reissue of Younger than Yesterday), "She Don't Care about Time" (2 versions n the re-issue of TTT)

get out those Joe Cocker records! Soul baby!

BTW, when Rog McGuinn first got his small Moog Modular system, he was completely stumped by it. He called Bob Moog, and was reportedly told that if he didn't know how to use it, then he shouldn't have bought it! This is as nothing compared to the other early synth pioneer Donald Buchla. I heard of one fellow who bought a used buchla system, and phoned buchla & co for service info. Buchla then phoned up the guy he'd bought it off, and shouted abuse down the phone along the lines of "HOW DARE YOU SELL THE INSTRUMENT i CUSTOM MADE FOR YOU!!!"

Moog modular synthesisers are available new from a company called moog custom engineering, but IMO those wishing to record moog ragas of their very own would be advised to check out:

http://www.synthtech.com http://www.wiard.com http://www.modcan.com

x0x0

Earliest ref to the Indian influence I can find is that in late '65, McGuinn used his Rickenbacker guitar to simulate the sound of a Sitar on the track "Why' ; first version of 'Eight Miles High' recorded at the same session. So quite early, but dunno if it predates 'Paint it Black' and George Harrison's first 'Eastern' influenced songs. And yes, "someone shd do something on how Folkways as a whole got unrock noises into the rock bloodstream." - I'll read it if you write it! The Smithsonian Institute are currently reissuing many of the old albs (many on CD-R!), and I have a pretty comprehensive catalogue for this, so I might do a bit more digging...

The raga stuff: so is it a case of parallel evolution (which is, like, not impossible) or is it chart-pop rivals jockeying for Best Use of this Week's Gimmick (which is the Secret Story of Rock, 64-68)? Lennon-McCartney (latter esp.) made a project of study of their whippersnapper competitors: could they even have been researching Byrds out-takes?

Folkways: It's another whole chapter. Oh joy. Or is that Oh fuck.

Brilliant: I knew the Byrds would one day deliver something of massive pleasure to me, and this is it. Respeck, Dr C.

(Actually when I was playing them earlier today the only track I wanted to give a second listen was 'Mind Gardens'! They're probably my number-one Yes-yes-I-know- they're-great-can-we-listen-to-something- else-now-please? band... Guess I must still not be playing them loud enough.)

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~tewing/rockmach.html

...and shudder in astonishment as FT actually prints something which is WELL-RESEARCHED (or *at all* researched)

Heaven knows I'm miserable now.

I am a convert, needless to say.

But I am reviving now to say: THE PREFLYTE SESSIONS: SEARCH! Or Destroy, whatever you want. I just want to hear some views on that collection. 'You Movin'' - wow!

I haven't listened to The Byrds for ages, apart from Untitled. I enjoyed the live stuff especially and I am forced to concede that I was possibly too harsh on Gene Parsons upthread. S.Battin is still a tool.

I'm amazed I didn't rise to the bait of the Doc ragging on Gene Parsons, because I'm a great admirer of his solo "The Kindling Album". His LP "Melodies" is less good, despite the promising title.

I think "Yesterday's Train" is beautiful, even.

I've never heard "Pre-Flyte", having always worked on the assumption that I don't really like The Byrds pre-Gram. I have a horrible feeling that this is a contrarian position I once took, sometime around 1987, and then the wind changed and I got stuck like that.

Perhaps I have some treats in store.

(Classic.)

The martial drumming on electric 'Tambourine Man' is interesting. It's like Larry Mullen Jr just out of Mount Temple, not Michael Clarke.

Gene Clark was a pretty good songwriter for a young age. But then, I'm not sure how young he was.

'Boston' and 'You Movin'' are the ones that have pushed out new motorboats for these ears. Cor.

There are a handy lot of good photos of the Byrds, and some of them are in the booklet for the collection.

Today I listened to 'Wild Mountain Thyme' for first time in a while - wow; I suppose the verdict is: later Byrds are even better than earlier Byrds. I love the strings and the 12-string solo on that track.

Funny coincidence since my grandfather was the publicist for the Monkees and how he recalls the Byrds being there all the time.

which other THE BYRDS songs will i like if i like 'IT WON'T BE WRONG'?

thanks in advance byrds-fan types!

Just get all their records, you won't be dissapointed.

was just knocked out by crosby's "it happens each day" a couple days ago while driving back from work -- one of those album tracks that doesn't get a lot of attention, but is positively stunning! Yeah, The Byrds probably don't have a bad album (at least up to Untitled -- don't think I've heard the rest in their entirety). the Clarence White era can be awesome as well. That live record that they put out a few years ago is great.

I sang lead in a Byrds cover band last night. Universal Mind Decoder was what we called ourselves. Six song set, started with "Feel a Whole Lot Better" and ended on "Rock and Roll Star," our strongest song after four practices. It was thrown together for my friend's 30th birthday. "Eight Miles High" wasn't as much of a trainwreck as I thought it would be.

The Byrds are my favorite band most days. My favorite overlooked Crosby tune in the Byrds catalog is "Ladyfriend." It's unbelievable.

in retrospect, the Byrds seem to have made a string of albums more consistent that anyone's except the Stones'. Mr. Tambourine Man, Turn! Turn!, 5D, Younger than Yesterday and Notorious and Sweetheart are all great, with maybe some of the experimental stuff on Younger a bit dated now. But what group ever did a better two-minute song than "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star"? the Box Tops? Too, such a typical group. None of the others made anything as good as the stuff as-group, except of course for Gene Clark's awesome With the Gosdin Brothers,one of the most underrated records of all time. And boy, if you haven't heard the Gosdin Brothers stuff--on Capitol and on Bakersfield International--you're in for a treat. Clarence White's death didn't come from drugs or anything; he got hit by a car. A shame.

yeah, I love "Lady Friend." And "Don't Make Waves," one of their most emblematic songs and one that Crosby didn't like, which proves the guy was sorta half-bright when it came to pop music. Know what I mean? He thought he was above it or something, and for me, the Byrds represent both the positive aspects of the '60s and some of the negative--after Gene Clark and Crosby left, they got away from what made them great, but at least they tried to do new things.

I found a bootleg 7" credited to the Beefeaters that must've been released before Ladyfriend showed up on the Younger Than Yesterday CD that featured the song but the quality was so bad and distorted that it was totally fuzzed out, sounded like the Sonics. It's actually pretty awesome. I agree though, it's one of my favorite songs. That and Why are two of my fave Byrds songs, which is funny because when Crosby was being more of a hippie he wrote some of my least favorite Byrds songs.

I will have to defend Clark's solo career though! With the Godsin Brothers/Echoes is just amazing Beatles meets proto-country rock and everything after that is pretty essential folk-rock/country-rock/singer-songwriter stuff. The guy never wrote a bad song.

"in retrospect, the Byrds seem to have made a string of albums more consistent that anyone's except the Stones'. Mr. Tambourine Man, Turn! Turn!, 5D, Younger than Yesterday...."

not sure of the chronology of their discography, but Dr. Byrds & Mr. Hyde is another classic Byrds disc, fwiw

notoroius byrd brothers ain't nuthin' to fuck wit either!

I will have to defend Clark's solo career though!

Me too. I don't think he hit his stride until after Gosdin Bros/Echoes. The first Dillard & Clark LP is perfect, as is White Light and No Other. Clark was the soul of the Byrds -- even when he wasn't in the band.

Roadmaster, too.

gene clark & the gosdin bros. is amazing too!

even with it's Paul rip-offs. That record and Emmit Rhodes first are the great Paul Mcartney solo record that never was.

The Byrds are one of those bands whose records I found stunning on first listen, but didn't feel the urge to go back to a lot. It's kind of like you know you're never going to recapture the rush of first exposure. Also they're structurally often quite weak (e.g. Draft Morning offers so much more than it eventually delivers).

Cocteau Twins are in the same bracket for me. Classic but with obvious flaws.

the chronology I had is accurate. Notorious and Sweetheart are both '68. Then it's Ballad of Easy Rider, which is fairly weak but has some great White guitar. Dr. Byrds is after that, and then I think it's Untitled. Then, Byrdmaniax, which is fairly lousy. I don't agree that Gene Clark was the heart and soul of the Byrds, though. That would be McGuinn. Not to say that I don't love Gene Clark and think the band was worse off without him. So, maybe he was the soul of the band but not the heart...

he was saying HE wasn't sure of the chronology and where Dr. Byrds fit in.

x-post

your chronology isn't correct.

Dr. Byrds comes before Easy Rider

I don't agree that Gene Clark was the heart and soul of the Byrds, though.

We actually agree, because I never said Clark was the heart and soul of the band. I said he was the soul of the band. see my post above.

Unfortunately, he wasn't the liver of the band.

...nor the afro.

The debut was nice, "Turn! Turn! Turn!" less so, "Fifth Dimension" was better again, while the next three were all Classics!

Please forgive me if I play Ole Wagamama for a second and use this thread to peddle my pet theory that The Notorious Byrd Bros was the first shoegazer album.

yeah, I didn't realize Dr. Byrds came before Easy Rider. I'm a big Gene Clark fan who wishes the records were sometimes a bit more...rigorous...which is what the Byrds (McGuinn) were good at.

That's interesting: Notorious as first shoegazer record. I always thought it was just a post-dope record made by dopers who weren't getting along; and I mean in the US, do people use the term "shoegazer"? But I know what you mean. Greil Marcus got it right: Notorious was a record of the '60s' "secret remorse." Which seems more to the point.

I'm a big Gene Clark fan who wishes the records were sometimes a bit more...rigorous...which is what the Byrds (McGuinn) were good at.

I'm not sure what "rigorous" means, but Clark's No Other seems like the space-country epic that McGuinn always wanted to the Byrds make. I love the epic/song cycle qualities of Notorious; it's one of my favorite albums, but I don't think McGuinn made anything quite as rigorous as No Other.

Someone upthread mentioned live stuff from the later-period Byrds. I've been listening to that lately. It's pretty damn amazing. I love the metamorphosis of "Eight Miles High" into a kind of Dead/Allmans acid-country-jazz jam.

Michael Clarke's real name was Michael Dick
discuss

anybody read that 33 1/3 book on Notorious ??

That book is frustrating but has some good parts.

"Jamaica Say You Will", Clarence White on vocals. Immaculate.

White did a version where he sang lead? what's that on?

But what group ever did a better two-minute song than "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star"? the Box Tops?

Lots, Edd, Jesus!! Like at least two hundred garage bands from the same period. And every British Invasion group!

By the way, I got the "Eight Miles High" 45 the other day with the other version of "Why" on the flipside, which is rocking!

"Goin' Back" rules!

By the way, I got the "Eight Miles High" 45 the other day with the other version of "Why" on the flipside, which is rocking!

Indeed. It blows away the LP version.

That version is on the expanded CD of Fifth Dimension. It's great but I think I'm partial to the LP version.

BOTH ARE NICE

i'm spinning both back to back, and damn, it's closer than I remember. I like the slower groove and raw vibe of the single. But the LP version has fuzz, static, and raga guitar that totally soar.

I read Menck's NBB book album last month. It's frankly kinda clumsily written, although to be fair it's likely more poorly edited (error on the very first page!) But as a tight primer of the whole Byrds backstory, it's valuable -- despite being one of my favorite bands, I'd never really read a history. And there are nice little insights along the way that keep you reading.

I don't hear any friggin "shoegaze" on NBB tho, sorry. One of the great albums ever, absolutely. Reading the book made me relisten to their catalog from start to finish -- the same way I discovered it when those CD reissues came out in the late 90s -- and they blew my mind all over again.

They were a band I'd never really explored and when those reissues first came out, I very deliberately picked them up in chrological order, a new one every six months or so, almost trying to replicate the experience of the original records, anticipating each new release and so on. lots of fun! But the greatest surprise was NBB, which I came to with no expectations -- all I knew was that it was the first one in line that had no recognizable songs that I knew from the radio. And also that the cover seemed sort of dull and generic. Nothing against horses mind you -- I'm a big fan! I think it was the font. one of the best albums ever, obv., same with 'Sweetheart.' It was 'Dr. Byrds' that was a bummer, not that it was BAD, it just really did not reach the heights anymore. It felt like something died at that point.

dr. byrds is very strange, but really not that bad. i like the way john york's voice sounds in harmony with mcguinn, too bad he didn't stick around (esp. considering the crap skip battin was responsible for after he replaced york)

I guess I hate the way it opens with that ponderous annoying version of "Wheel's On Fire", and, like, it's the end of the string of six breathtaking albums in a row. It just always scans as a little sad to me, for those reasons. Not that I don't get up and smiley for "Old Blue" or whatever, but the album really represented the end of something amazing.

Coincidentally enough I'm spinning the first McGuinn solo album, which I just got yesterday, right now. Byrds reunion on the second track! I had no idea. Nice little cut (Charles Lloyd in tow as well.) and "Time Cube" is kinda a "Space Odyssey" reprise (just ROger & moog). but oof, these lyrics -- who the heck was Jacques Levy, am I supposed to know who he was? the name sounds way familiar.

also that ridiculous filler medley at the end of Dr. -- really depressing

yeah the last track sux but that was a byrd tradition. i like this wheel's on fire but apparently clarence white hated that version, his preferred take showed up on the reissue. bob johnston did a very poor job on that record, they SOOOOOOOO missed gary usher at that point

Lots, Edd, Jesus!! Like at least two hundred garage bands from the same period. And every British Invasion group!

see, I don't subscribe to this ethic. garage bands are overrated, and not as good as the Byrds. every British Invasion group? Like the Tremeloes or the Marmalade or what? you mean the Sonics or who? the point is, the Byrds' "So You Want to Be" is a comment on the whole fucking thing, by people who had thought about it for more than ten minutes, which the aforementioned "garage bands" had not, that's why they were just some garage band and not the Byrds. and yeah, Michael Clarke belonged in a garage band but ended up in the Byrds--a tribute to their conceptualism. sometimes thinking helps, even in rock 'n' roll, Tim.

edd wins

Stormy, you prob know Jacques Levy as the guy who wrote the lyrics on 'Desire' by Bob Dylan.

I've not (yet) read the Menck volume, but wld like to put in a gd word for "Timeless Flight" by Johnny Rogan (esp. the massive expanded version.) Rogan isn't a great stylist/thinker, but his research is awesome and over twenty years he pretty much spoke to every one of the major Byrds players - an essential companion to the recs

i love 'so you want to be a rock'n'roll star' - hugh masakela = the masterstroke = but it has to be one of the v. earliest examples of pure unadulterated rockist disdain for 'manufactured' pop (and just a little bit rich coming from the Byrds, who after all mostly didn't play on their first hit single and cld be said to be sort've a Jim Dickinson supergroup)

I can't say enough about "Eight Miles High" - how unthinkable was it for a '66 single to have THREE extnded guitar breaks, each one extending out from that 4-note "India" head and yet really sounding more chatotic than the previous one - sounding like no previous solo on any single I've ever heard, certinaly not any played on electric 12-string, aside from maybe Townshend in "I Cant Explain". Even the fact that McGuinn actually played at a slower speed and sped it up to make it shimmer a bit more is worth noting. An incredible recording. I know the hipsters prefer the original, and I like that one a lot too, but it's the single version that stays with me. I suspect that someone other than Michael Clarke played on that classic take.

As for the "shoegaze" question, I remember somebody-or-other claimed that My Bloody Valentine were continuing in a continuum that extended from the Byrds through to Sonic Youth, or the equivalent. That from one of the clippings reproduced in their '88 Feed Me With Your Kiss sampler. And certainly Byrds and showgazers alique were both fond of guitars that jingle-jangle-jingle.

Edd otm re: Gene Clark with the Gosdin Brothers. "Elevator Operator" is the best Revolver outtake ever.

showgazers alique

WTF?! Dunno where that came from...If that was some arcane joke, it hasn't aged well, or at all.

who the heck was Jacques Levy, am I supposed to know who he was? the name sounds way familiar.

-- Stormy Davis,

Co-writer of most of Dylan's Desire.

you don't miss your water till your well runs dry

I think the Byrds are only alright. Some very good songs, but a lot of duffers, and I can only take so much of that nicey vocal harmony stuff.

die

The production on "You Don't Mis Your Water" is really quite trippy -- the way that the vocals bleed across the front of the sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9cINH9yob4

some tasty licks there...and some sweet beards

I never quite understood what he intended to do with the horse once he caught it.

feel like someone on ILM recommended it on another Byrds thread, but that Live At Royal Albert Hall thing that came out a few years back is incredible. Better than Untitled!

i agree, tyler.

when he caught the horse they were gonna be friends for live, obv.

life*

just like a wife ... hmmm.

haven't heard this but hey: http://martiansboots.blogspot.com/2009/11/byrds-at-fillmore-west-jan-4-1970.html

Is there like a career-spanning Clarence White comp? Would buy.

Don't know of a comp but do you keep up with the blog Adios Lounge? He's been doing a pretty exhaustive recap of White's career, full of audio and video. He writes these posts off and on so search by category at his site, then start at the oldest one and go forward.

http://www.adioslounge.com/search/label/Clarence%20White

!!!
Nice, exactly what I had in mind.

What's with the floating German ghost lady?

if john york had stuck around for the last few records things would have been much improved. his voice blended really well with mcguinn and battin's kim fowley co-writes are mostly dud. also, you can tell from some of the live recordings from the york era that he gave them more of a hard edge. battin was serviceable but more of a mellow jam sort of guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmcks4WU6K8

Fifth Dimension sounds like the best album ever tonight; even "Captain Soul"! "I Come And Stand At Every Door" is spectral doom: "I need no fruit, I need no rice / I need no sweets nor even bread". Almost every song has an undercurrent of immanent disaster; and they weren't wrong, just two years early.

Clarence White was just ridiculous.

listening to Untitled for the first time ever...live half didn't do much for me (the "Eight Miles High" was kinda ridiculous) but the studio side is very nice, intricate folk rock; the guitar parts (bass included) are interesting, and the vocals are suitably restrained.

Also, having relistened to the entire Byrds oeuvre through Untitled so far in the last day or so, I'll point out the obvious: these guys covered Dylan a lot. There's an interview on one of the reissues, Notorious or Sweetheart maybe, where McGuinn says that they're kinda over covering Dylan, because they've found their own songwriting voice...but then Dr. Byrds has two Dylan songs (and a third if you count bonus tracks).

i know it's one of their Official Classix and everything, but i think turn! turn! turn! (the song) is their best moment.

It's unfortunate that the song has been sort of ruined (for me) by 60s montages on TV.

yeah, it is definitely one of those songs that has passed into the realm of cliche. but if you can turn all that off, it is pretty gorgeous, isn't it?

It's a great song. I like it enough that seeing Papa M do an instrumental cover in concert was kind of thrilling tbh.
It was probably my first favorite Byrds song.

"Turn! Turn! Turn!" and "Mr. Tambourine Man" are two of the most overplayed songs ever that I don't switch off when they come on the radio. I could list 10 Byrds songs I love more, but neither one is dead for me yet.

listening to John Reilly and What's Happening?! today, hazy summer bliss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSwOrytf_M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gD84jbVV3c

that's the jam

haha, those dancers in the "nowhere" clip are rad. almost like they're dancing to a completely different song.

i've always been a little confused by the byrds' status in the late 60s -- were they seen as kinda passe at that point? i guess they just don't show up on a lot of those big festival movies.

Crosby seemed to think so.

yeah, i guess at that point, the byrds might've been "that band David Crosby used to be in." s'pose the fact that mcguinn was the only original member left made a difference too, no matter how awesome the clarence white-era band was.

What's weird to me is how quick the transition was. They always seemed like such distinct entities to me; the original lineup, the sweetheart aberration, the revamped rockers.
But all three of those things existed in 1968. Fucked up year, to say the least.

yeah, no kidding! sort of amazing there was a byrds at the end of all of it. seems like the easiest thing to do would be for mcguinn to start a solo career, but the namebrand thing must've been too much to drop.

"(Untitled)" is a really good album, especially with the unreleased tracks on the last CD reissue. It's kind of a shame that it didn't really give them the fresh start they were hoping. They definitely had a cool sound, much more muscular on some of the rockers and twangy when needed with Clarence White on guitar and good drummer with Gene Parsons. Really in some ways it was way more of a 'band' than the original group, which used a bunch of ringers on the earlier studio stuff. I suppose the fact that McGuinn was the only one left kind of made them seem lame to some. If they would have had a single that would have really landed, it might have been really different, but that is kind of the case of the 2nd half of the Byrds career. There was a lot of music happening in 68-70 to say the least, so I could see how a band, even one with a rep like the Byrds could get lost.

"seems like the easiest thing to do would be for mcguinn to start a solo career"

From what I get reading into all of this, the Byrds were pretty much broke so they were playing live a bunch to kill off some debt. That's the thing I got from an article about Clarence White. It might have been a situation like when Led Zep first toured as the Yardbirds at the beginning...I don't know.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/423727_10150578703543406_593208405_9013388_1130855863_n.jpg
1200 pages apparently! good lord.

dude

lol at volume 1 !
guess the second volume is supposed to be about the members' post byrds careers ...

I love that Michael can't keep a straight face in that photo.
Who are they kidding? Nice branch, Crosby!

i'm sure cros was like "this branch ... means something, man!"

So this is "Timeless Flight" expanded again?

yeah i think so. you'd think rogan would be so sick of the byrds by now.

i'm sure cros was like "this branch ... means something, man!"

He believed it played a part in the Kennedy assassination, iirc.

haha.
i actually haven't read timeless flight -- it's good?

Timeless Flight is very good.

Tempted to buy this, despite having bought 2 previous versions of "Timeless Flight". One of my all time favourite music books.

yeah looking forward to reading it. guess it hasn't been published in the US yet? or something?
http://www.amazon.com/Byrds-Requiem-Timeless-Johnny-Rogan/dp/0952954087/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1318659492&sr=8-2

I just went through that. Yeah if you look at amazon.co.uk you will see it.

This guy had a deeeep trove, much of it West Coast buckskin, much of it Byrds and related--all crashed with Mega Mama, but he's re-posting, with Chris Hillman and Friends at the top of this page, Untitled-era live Byrds at the bottom, Flying Burritos etc in between, and might not be long til he restores Byrds x FBB
http://bbchron.blogspot.com/

yeah i grabbed that fbb/byrds gig before it went down -- very fun stuff!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUOpjDF86yo

Just reminded my first copy of Timeless flight was a thin paperback back in the 80s. then got the one from like 10 years ago & been wondering how necessary an update was on that.
Got the John Einarson Gene Clark book to read sometime in near future too.

did anyone read that latest version of rogan's bio?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e7486eb541c1887e7a984467ed73b1a7/tumblr_mkov20xPFt1qa9uo9o1_500.jpg

man they're too much aren't they

you listen to them and it's too much, but you keep listening

their time has come again

did anyone read that latest version of rogan's bio?

Classic

holy shit @ the jesu joy of man's desire bridge in she don't care about time. i thought it was just half man half biscuit who pulled that stuff :D

gene is easily the best byrd but younger than yesterday is my favorite album of theirs

Roger McGuinn might be a totally doofus, but he's clearly the best Byrd.

Surprised there hasn't been a Best Byrd poll, tbh.

Roger McGuinn might be a totally doofus, but he's clearly the best Byrd.

Worst is probably Mike.

Dave is a distant second-worst.

Chris I like a lot, especially his bass lines, although I dock him a point or two for being a little sloppy now and then, as well as for his unspectacular multi-instrumentalism. But perhaps I am being too harsh.

Gene is probably the best songwriter

This is probably true or at the very least he is the most consistent (all the other major songwriters had some real stinkers to go along with their gems). That said I'd also say quality of songwriting matters a little less here since Byrds were always consistently brilliant interpreters of other people's songs.

Indeed

Well Gene Clark was a great songwriter full stop. |seems to have been a pretty flawed human being but it does seem to have fed into his songwriting.

I think that John Einarson biography of him Mr Tambourine Man was pretty good, but most of his bios have been anyway.

yeah that einarson book is excellent.

Lotta good stuff on this thread too: Byrds POX

I"m sure I said this before but the Byrds' two best albums are Younger Than Yesterday and Notorious, and those are the two albums were Chris Hillman stepped up... he is by far the most underrated Byrd.

OTM, then went on to be underrated in the Flying Burrito Brothers.

And, oddly enough, correctly rated in the SHF Band and Desert Rose Band.

avians

<3

I made a lot of mistakes in my life and one of them was firing the best harmony singer in the world @thedavidcrosby https://t.co/agVfV7Pz75

— Roger McGuinn (@RogerMcGuinn) November 2, 2017

awwwww

does seem like mcguinn, crosby and hillman could do a nice stripped down reunion thing at this point.

;_;

McGuinn and Crosby do show up on the new Hillman solo album---which is what it is, but/and producer Tom Petty evidently means to help it be all that it can be: some Heartbreakers also appear, and Hillman credits TP with talking him into incl. that good version of "Walk Right Back", one of the many under-covered Everlys worthies.

Also some live reunion sets of these three guys are posted here and there, worth checking out.

Croz seems to have completely fallen out though with Neil Young and especially Graham Nash in recent years

Not that surprising as the guy is a notorious legendary asshole of almost Mike Love proportions.

Reminds me: bonus tracks on a Notorious Byrd Brothers CD incl. a rehearsal clip. in which McG. is tactfully teaching Michael Clarke a cue, when suddenly there's Croz: WHY CAN'T YOU GET IT RIGHT MAN, WHAT THE FUCK'S THE MATTER WITH YOU.

No longer with The Byrds, he went on to tell the Woodstock audience SHUT UP MAN

I love “What’s Happening” with all my heart right now. Crosby is my favorite singer in the byrds (iirc this is also his first time as a min singer in the band) that chuckle around 0:42 in the second or third “I don’t know” never fails to charm me.

The song is so good... I think it’s my favorite Byrds song by a long shot... sounds like the missing link between 60’s psychedelia and the baggy movement.

as a great man once tweeted, 1000 times yes.

yep

i made some reference to them inventing MBV with that song recently. it's astonishing. mind you the rest of the album isn't bad either. secret best album of the 60s

Not heard 'What's Happening' yet but 'Draft Morning' from Notorious Byrd Brothers is my all time favourite. Got a soft spot for the Gram Parsons abetted 'Sweetheart of the Rodeo as well. But yeah these guys were special.

"what's happening" is an amazing track and yes definitely shades of Kevin Shields in there. I was obsessed with "I wasn't born to follow" for a good while there recently. Acid country n'western

picked up an LP this weekend for fun, "The Best of the Byrds: Greatest Hits, Volume II". it's pretty neat little compilation! has a few Rodeo-era tracks, has "Jesus is Just Alright", etc. side B gets a bit goofy w lot of tracks i hadn't heard yet. "Tiffany Queen" is like if Bob Dylan fronted a glam rock band. "I Wanna Grow Up to Be a Politician" is not really that sharp of satire but pretty catchy and fun. the closer "America's Great National Pastime" (written by Kim Fowley) has some super bonkers lyrics "America's great national pastime is chocolate fudge/carrying a grudge/and bribing the judge" put it all together and it feels a bit like a US Kinks.

i made some reference to them inventing MBV with that song recently

my dad saw the Byrds play in the 60's and never fails to bring up how loud they were (and this is in comparison to acts like The Who). that 12-string guitar man...

you know which song doesn't get enough attention?

"What's Happening?", on Fifth Dimension, which reminds me of isn't anything mbv

I remember reading something along those lines somewhere before, and here it is (different song, but still: Best Byrds Album '65-'68

Six posts up:

I love “What’s Happening” with all my heart right now. Crosby is my favorite singer in the byrds (iirc this is also his first time as a min singer in the band) that chuckle around 0:42 in the second or third “I don’t know” never fails to charm me.

The song is so good... I think it’s my favorite Byrds song by a long shot... sounds like the missing link between 60’s psychedelia and the baggy movement.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Tuesday, 28 November 2017 03:15 (five months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

are there any decent "stories of" or collective biographies that peeps can recommend? Seems like there would be some interesting tales!

various volumes of work by Johnny rogan. Starting with Timeless Flight and going onto 2 volumes of Requiem For The Timeless. That later one is about the careers of ex-members after the band.

In the Wings: My Life with Roger McGuinn and The Byrds by Ianthe McGuinn which was reviewed in a copy of Ugly Things earlier this year and wasa memoir of Roger McGuinn's one time wife.

Not sure about any Oral Histories or day by day books, both of which might be interesting.

ah yes I should have remembered that Rogan was the main Byrds biographer, I read his Smiths work back in the day. Thanks!

Here is a silly Byrds tribute I recently came across
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1yXR5rw_Eo

Mr. Tambourine Man: The Life and Legacy of The Byrds’ Gene Clark by John Einarson is also terrific if horribly depressing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/music/it-was-the-byrds-album-everyone-hated-in-1968-now-sweetheart-of-the-rodeo-is-a-classic/2018/08/16/a2534a88-9a8f-11e8-b60b-1c897f17e185_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d74b28a5b8d1

Writer talks to folks about the album, plus M & Hillman current you plans

Tour

Great article, thanks for posting

I liked this bit from the Washington Post article:

while standing in line at a bank in Beverly Hills, Hillman ran into a sandy-haired kid from Georgia who said he could play piano. Hillman brought him to McGuinn. Parsons was just 21.

“I asked Gram if he could play some McCoy Tyner type of piano,” McGuinn says. “Because I was into John Coltrane and the “Eight Miles High” kind of place. And he played some Floyd Cramer-style piano. Floyd played on Elvis Presley’s “Heartbreak Hotel.” That was a song that got me interested in music. I thought, ‘Wow, this guy’s got talent.’ But I didn’t know he would turn into George Jones in a sequin suit.”

Parsons didn’t hide his true love. At the end of their first rehearsal, Hillman remembers Parsons kicking into a Buck Owens song. The Byrds were trying to figure out their next step, with McGuinn talking up a sprawling, conceptual album with a futuristic suite. Parsons had his own idea.

There is some great stuff about Gram in Stanley Booth’s book about The Rolling Stones, which I may have mentioned once or twice before on this board.

Here’s an interview with Stanley that I haven’t read yet: http://www.furious.com/perfect/gramparsons/booth.html

this (or a vid v related) posted on the old school guitar shredding thread, good stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VwmyItsU-4

What's the musical term called, right before the tele starts it's lead, it's like a short little intro build up?

I guess it basically starts the song as well.

that's most commonly called a pickup. anacrusis would be the more technical term.

nice

thx!

Thanks for the interviews, and that pic of McGuinn & Marty reminds me of a discussion on Rolling Country last month:

roger mcguinn, chris hillman and marty stuart & his fabulous superlatives, sweetheart of the rodeo full album show, los angeles, tuesday night. opening night of a short-ish tour. it was ragged, loose, occasionally awkward and more than occasionally great. they did one set of truncated versions of hits and deep cuts, and then the sweetheart of the rodeo set, played in full but out of order. i got the sense that stuart and the superlatives rehearsed thoroughly on their own and mcguinn and hillman maybe not so much. they missed cues left and right, were looking down frequently for chords and lyrics, and while hillman's voice was in good form, mcguinn was having a little trouble cutting through. but their instincts for harmony are still dead-on, and stuart fit right into that. i felt like i was watching a band still working out its sound, and as a result, when something gelled, when they hit a sweet spot, it was magical. like watching a band discover itself in real time. and that second set was way better than the first. it felt like having a piece of my own dna read back to me. maybe they felt the same.

encore: two byrds classics and three tom petty classics. i was wondering if maybe they would be able to coax david crosby (who i assume still lives here though i have no idea) onto the stage for a song or two. instead we got mike campbell, who joined for "american girl" -- after which they kicked him off and, strangely, played more petty songs without him. marty stuart did a bluegrassy take on "runnin' down a dream" (thumbs up) and hillman did a fairly faithful "wildflowers," which apparently petty produced for him for an album he put out last year.

they also told some stories. they're not particularly good storytellers. damn those harmonies though.

― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, July 25, 2018 9:08 PM (one month ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Was already hoping for an album from that tour, even more while reading your dispatch. Marty and His FS have the drive and expertise to keep those geezers functioning onstage for as long as possible.
Yeah, Hillman's always seemed better in bands, all the way back to the Hillmen, but the Petty=produced set has keepers; my comments from the most recent Nashville Scene ballot:
"Have not yet made it through Chris Hillman's The Asylum Years---some hideous harmonies get wasted on the way---but will give it another shot. Some nice tracks on the new Bidin’ My Time, especially "Walk Right Back," one of the many under-covered Everly Bros worthies, seeds of West Coast country rock at its best (he credits inclusion of this song to producer Tom Petty, who did what he could all over--Hillman's not the strongest solo artist among his peers, but has his moments, when the setting's just right, or just about). McGuinn and The Croz show up; some Heartbreakers, still radio-ready, also appear."

― dow, Wednesday, July 25, 2018 9:43 PM

I’d love to see this show next month in Boston but it’s hella expensive.

yeah that was a great report by fcc

I find it difficult to separate "Turn Turn Turn" from its almost overwhelming Boomer-ness -- to the point where I've gone years without listening to it on purpose -- but goddamn it is a gorgeous song from top to bottom, isn't it.

At this point have that experience with a lot of songs from that era so yeah

Heck yeah

Wow! @thedavidcrosby blocked me! pic.twitter.com/nDDQwS1dWv

— Roger McGuinn (@RogerMcGuinn) December 4, 2019

saw the croz doc yesterday... he seems repentant but unable to change his assholish ways

lol @ leaving out why Croz blocked him (which was totally justified imo)

I generally have no use for his musical output (everything great about the Byrds mostly came from others imo), but found the doc pretty engaging and his overall contrition/attitude p refreshing.

why did croz block him?

I mean...............fair enough, David Crosby pic.twitter.com/iu3Lcx5OcT

— Allison Hussey (@allisonhussey) December 4, 2019

Jesus is just not alright with the Croz.

I won't lose a follow
by heeding God's call
for what is a retweet
that wants you to fall?

Is Crosby ill? This is like the second or third time I’ve seen some sort of reference to him approaching death but with no specificity or suggestion that it’s anything other than him getting old.

Everybody has been blocked before
Everybody knows the pain
Anyone in this place
Can tell you to your face
Why you shouldn't try to @ someone

Listening to THE PREFLYTE SESSIONS for a few days.

'Boston' and 'You Moving' have always been such refreshing pop bursts. It's a downer to look them up in Johnny Rogan's TIMELESS FLIGHT REVISITED and find them dismissed. That's an odd book: hundreds of pages but not much sense, I think, of the excitement of the Byrds. The negative feelings it always leaves me with remind me a little of the negativity of MacDonald's REVOLUTION IN THE HEAD.

Anyway, early Byrds forever.

Since the block on Twitter was mentioned: earlier this week, McG. retweeted a tweet from a tweeter who chided either him or Crosby for the Bible thing, and McG. said no,but that he *had* sent Bibles to the imprisoned Croz, who "shrugged them off. He blocked me for saying that no one wants to work with him any more."

I would paste it, but Twitter can be twitchy.

So at least here you have an example get an idea what a Twitter war would have been in the 60s...

"NEIL OUT! CSN FOREVER!"

Grace Slick would be all into it for a bit and then her feed would just turn into cat pictures.

Sad about the latest feud.

Does anyone else like THE PREFLYTE SESSIONS?

I do!

also like this---Dennis Hopper could be a really good photog, at least as good as actor or director:

Hey kids - that’s the Byrds playing at Jane Fonda’s Fourth of July party 1965 - photo by Dennis Hopper. pic.twitter.com/M5l4E26YTl

— Pat Thomas (@PatThomas1964) July 4, 2022

I'm not buying the photo book - way out of my price range - but those photos really are awesome. For whatever reason, the Byrds hit a nostalgic sweet spot for me more than anyone else, at least for the '60s. For the 50th anniversary tour for Sweetheart of the Rodeo, they did a handful of classics beyond that album, and as soon as McGuinn played the opening notes to "Mr. Tambourine Man" on his 12-string, it was mana.

Yes that's one super photo.

Pat Thomas's tweets are always worth seeing and reading (says the Judee Sills doc, which he worked on, is almost ready, btw):
http://twitter.com/PatThomas1964?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1544105578821140480%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ilxor.com%2FILX%2FThreadSelectedControllerServlet%3Fboardid%3D41threadid%3D1002unread

Hopper’s photographs are great. He had a real eye. I’ve always been surprised this aspect of the man was always so overlooked.

Had no idea Roger McGuinn and Harrison Ford were both born on the same day in the same city. They both turn 80 today.

Hopper’s photographs are great. He had a real eye. I’ve always been surprised this aspect of the man was always so overlooked.

"Eight Miles High" is so incredible I can't even believe it exists

Then you’ll probably enjoy this:

https://500songs.com/podcast/episode-139-eight-miles-high-by-the-byrds/

(xpost) As is this, which for some reason always gets buried as the 20th or so search result on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3eWX0aYXjo

wow that is great, what a snapshot

keep meaning to check out that 500 songs podcast, probably should now

Just wish sound and image were a lot clearer--I think that's something that was commercially released at some point?

I love this band, and "Eight Miles High" is my favorite of their singles. (Hüsker Dü's cover is also a huge favorite, as is Hüsker Dü in general.)

That BBC/WGBH series with Robert Palmer as its chief consultant spotlighted "Eight Miles High" in its episode on psychedelia. (The BBC actually titled that episode "Eight Miles High" whereas WGBH's PBS broadcast called it "Blues in Technicolor.")

The show has been uploaded to YouTube many times over the years - it usually gets flagged and taken down at some point - but at the moment, most of the episode in question can be found here.

"Eight Miles High" is discussed from 1:48 to 5:03. McGuinn talks about the solo at 2:52 - that part really stuck out for me because he plays a small fragment of it. (I had never seen anyone perform it before even though I had heard that record many, many times.)

I feel like more and more critics have knocked the band in recent years - not dismissing them altogether but taking them down a few pegs in terms of their place in history, but I haven't found any of those arguments to be very convincing. The worst I can say about the Byrds is that 1) a handful of their classic albums were marred by filler (a fault that's diminished on the digital reissues - they all have enough top-notch bonus tracks to make up for the LP tracks that should've been left out), 2) their later, less-heralded albums were wildly uneven, but this doesn't change what they had already accomplished before, and 3) they weren't a great live band, but that doesn't feel all that relevant when I've mainly thought of them as recording artists. (I barely heard, much less saw, any live material until I had grown very familiar with their albums, and I think that was limited to the first disc of Untitled and what little was on their first box set.)

yeah the 1990s / early 2000s CD reissues are all worth grabbing just for the bonus tracks ... tons of great stuff there.

I haven't seen any of those recent-ish criticisms, but I can't imagine what the angle could be. They made great records, they were innovative and hugely influential, and their patchier albums never had much of a profile to begin with. Like birdistheword said, the relevance of the quality of their live shows is questionable given how little live material there is -- and the live disc on (untitled) is great.

That Robert Palmer series, though, has some major gaps, errors, omissions, and other things generally associated with such series (beyond the fact that the Who aren't even mentioned in passing). Listening to the 500 Songs podcast, there's been many, many moments where I think, "Yep, they got that wrong on the PBS series."

The Byrds Live at the Royal Albert Hall 1971 smokes, but that's not the classic lineup

yeah I love that one — as I've probably said on this very thread, sometimes Clarence White-era Byrds is my favorite Byrds.

They were certainly very good live!

Just wish sound and image were a lot clearer--I think that's something that was commercially released at some point?

I had to hunt around for this but found this short interview with McGuinn about it, and it includes a much better copy of the film. Not sure if it was ever officially released or where else this appeared. He filmed it himself on their second trip to England in 1967 and was influenced by the work Bruce Conner was doing, which totally makes sense. I had initially searched thinking Conner or Anthony Stern had filmed it, not sure who else was doing stuff like that at that time.

https://growingbolder.com/stories/eight-miles-high-historic-home/

yeah the 1990s / early 2000s CD reissues are all worth grabbing just for the bonus tracks ... tons of great stuff there.

― tylerw, Wednesday, May 31, 2023 11:09 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Liner notes are great, too.

I haven't seen any of those recent-ish criticisms, but I can't imagine what the angle could be.

Christgau knocked them recently, I think in an e-mail response to a reader that I'm too lazy to hunt down. Like you, couldn't disagree more; their best songs sound better and more miraculous than ever.

Ha, I was going to recommend The Complete Columbia Albums box set as a great, reasonably priced way to get all those with bonus tracks (though not the liner notes, I'm assuming), but uh... it's apparently now less "reasonably priced" - it's currently going for $170 on Amazon. I bought it for less than $40 a year or so ago. If you do come across one, it's a nice way to get those bonus tracks.

Didn't know xgau had turned against/complained about the Byrds---he was a stan in the 60s, leaving ancient evidence on his site, and most of their 60s albums are in his CG Basic Rock Library (although he never liked Younger Than Yesterday).
Dunno if Dr. Byrds and Mr. Hyde, which I've still never heard, quite made his pantheon, but he talked it up a couple of tymes back then. Gave The Ballad of Easy Rider a bittersweet B Plus, and that was about it for the positive side, although he did sort out McGuinn's solo albums more patiently than anybody else ever has or will, looks like.
This Xgau Sez response from last year may be the latest word:

[Q] Gram Parsons didn't take kindly to Roger McGuinn replacing his vocals on Sweetheart of the Rodeo; he said in an interview that McGuinn "erased it and did the vocals himself and fucked it up." Do you hear it that way or nah? -- Sebastian, Santiago

[A] First of all, I see where there's a mega-reissue of Sweetheart of the Radio, which I knew naught of, because I have just about zero interest in these everything-included retrospectives. They're the rawest kind of corporate profit-taking and collectoritis, plus I have more old music I love in my shelves than I'll ever hear again, plus I still enjoy a lot of new stuff. Second, the Byrds have not aged well. They were the true folk-rock, which means among other things devoid of groove--their drummer, Michael Clarke, was the most stationary of his time, and he had competition. And their best singer wasn't leader McGuinn but Lord help them David Crosby, who admittedly did end up making something of himself. They meant a lot in their time on the basis of "Eight Miles High" alone, I still like Notorious in particular, and Sweetheart is several tads more than OK, though if you want to hear somebody cover "You Ain't Going Nowhere" I suggest Maria Muldaur. Third, Gram Parsons was a genius and a superb singer and they weren't. If he says his vocals were better than McGuinn's I see no reason not to believe him because I'd be surprised if they weren't, though doing the compare-and-contrast mambo with a YouTube version of the mega-reissue got tiresome fast. The Flying Burrito Brothers' The Gilded Palace of Sin remains one of my favorite albums ever. In addition to being a genius, Parsons was clearly cursed, and I'm very sorry he's gone.

Although he didn't live to hear it, I think Parsons' vocals were very eventually discovered to have been mixed way way down, and brought back up on the Bryds box and same-era Sweetheart deluze CD, weren't they? And even before that, Australia's Raven Records did the same on a good Parsons overview, Warm Evenings, Pale Mornings, Bottled Blues (shoulda been "Bottle," but that's the only thing they got wrong).

(As for Michael Clark, pretty sure the Wrecking Crew played on the debut, as also eventually came out in the box, and I don't remember ever listening to the Byrds for drums anyway.)

(Although I haven't listened lately, since I've become such a drumhead, and maybe he would bother me now.)

Second, the Byrds have not aged well.

That's the comment I had in mind, yes. It's not that critical, and he does single out a song and a couple of albums.

Still...I don't know about "devoid of groove"; what's incredible about, for example, "She Don't Care About Time"--or some of the early drafts on Preflyte, which I love--I'm just not sure if groove is the most applicable criterion. As I once wrote about something else, to me it's like complaining that Willie Mays wasn't much of a soccer player. The Byrds were doing something else. (Although I'd also argue that they had their own kind of groove.)

bach sucks, devoid of groove

christgau sucks pt. 1080

Uh-oh turns out these are the only ones in his Basic Rock Library: TThe Byrds' Greatest Hits, The Notorious Byrd Brothers, Sweetheart of the Rodeo First published, I think in 1980, with his first Consumer Guide collection. But you couldn't have predicted such a drastic cut while reading this 1969 round-up, for instance: "The Byrds Have Flown--But Not Far":https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/news/byrds-69.php

Robert Quine referenced the Byrds as a big early influence in a few interviews.

Marty Stuart and his Fabulous Superlatives put out a recent record that is a love letter to the Cali Cosmic Cowboy sound the Byrds pioneered.

Did not know that about Quine!
fact checking cuz caught one of those xpost Sweetheart 50th Anniversary shows that McGuinn and Hillman did with Marty Stuart and his Fabulous Superlatives, reported on back on Rolling Country, then pasted it to Sweetheart's own thread:

Just posted this on rolling country, but then realized this belongs on a proper sweetheart of the rodeo thread. so cutting & pasting:

roger mcguinn, chris hillman and marty stuart & his fabulous superlatives, sweetheart of the rodeo full album show, los angeles, tuesday night. opening night of a short-ish tour. it was ragged, loose, occasionally awkward and more than occasionally great. they did one set of truncated versions of hits and deep cuts, and then the sweetheart of the rodeo set, played in full but out of order. i got the sense that stuart and the superlatives rehearsed thoroughly on their own and mcguinn and hillman maybe not so much. they missed cues left and right, were looking down frequently for chords and lyrics, and while hillman's voice was in good form, mcguinn was having a little trouble cutting through. but their instincts for harmony are still dead-on, and stuart fit right into that. i felt like i was watching a band still working out its sound, and as a result, when something gelled, when they hit a sweet spot, it was magical. like watching a band discover itself in real time. and that second set was way better than the first. it felt like having a piece of my own dna read back to me. maybe they felt the same.

encore: two byrds classics and three tom petty classics. i was wondering if maybe they would be able to coax david crosby (who i assume still lives here though i have no idea) onto the stage for a song or two. instead we got mike campbell, who joined for "american girl" -- after which they kicked him off and, strangely, played more petty songs without him. marty stuart did a bluegrassy take on "runnin' down a dream" (thumbs up) and hillman did a fairly faithful "wildflowers," which apparently petty produced for him for an album he put out last year.

they also told some stories. they're not particularly good storytellers. damn those harmonies though.

― fact checking cuz, Thursday, 26 July 2018

The Wrecking Crew played on their debut single, but when it came time to record more songs to make their first LP, the band insisted on playing those tracks themselves. (For whatever reason, this rarely seems to get fact-checked whenever news or magazine articles mistakenly claim that the Wrecking Crew played on the whole album - it happened again with multiple outlets after Crosby died.)

Clarke is surprisingly underrated as a drummer. Listen to the drumming on “Eight Miles High,” it’s actually pretty complicated and impressive.

Here’s what Peter Lewis of Moby Grape once said to Craig Morrison about Clarke:

Peter Lewis: …to play with him was such a trip because he was this weird kind of drummer. He was so inventive.

Craig Morrison: I remember him doing something unusual: leaving out a hit that you were expecting in his rhythm, and you’d think, how does he do it ?

PL : Yeah! Right.

CM : But he got put down a fair bit for his drumming. People seemed to think he wasn’t good.

PL : Well, they’re fuckin’ crazy ! When you hear what he did on those songs like “She Don’t Care About Time” or “Set You Free This Time,” where the high hat would go off and it would be different every time. It was perfect. McGuinn was saying one time, “It takes that guy longer to learn a part than anybody I know but once he learns the fucking thing, it’s the perfect part.” It’s like Ringo Starr.

I like Stevenson like that too, ‘cause he was going to work on it. He had a funny little marching thing that he’d do that was unique and nobody else did. The “Hey Grandma” shuffles that Don played are cool. Drummers are all different. Playing folk rock with Michael was like—he’d go into some chord change and you could feel it four bars ahead of time. The whole thing would build, and you’d hit it and it would go swoosh, like taking off on another level. He could just do that so well, think of the song.

"Between the Velvet Underground, the Byrds and the jazz I was listening to, I sort of began to come up with my own style. Listening to Ascension, taking LSD (don't do this at home, kids). That's when I broke through and started hearing things on a certain level. That was pretty much how I was formed. There's also Elvis' Sun sessions, Fats Domino, Bo Diddley, James Burton, Mickey Baker and Little Richard."

https://www.furious.com/perfect/quine.html

Classic Quine quote and interview.

I’ve been dissing Michael Clarke forever. Perhaps it’s time for a relisten.

Classic Quine quote and interview.

I’ve been dissing Michael Clarke forever. Perhaps it’s time for a relisten.

Hmm. The Zing gods must be angry. Or crazy even.

As a friend says about Ringo, if you think Michael Clarke sucks, you think the Byrds suck. (see also: Nick Mason) Clarke was perfect for what they were doing, and I would be surprised if even the most skilled session drummer could've come up with what Clarke did on "Eight Miles High." I think some of the general negative feeling about Clarke comes from that session outtake -- can't remember which deluxe CD it's on -- where he threatens to quit and says stuff like, "I don't even like playing the drums!"

Negative comments about Clarke's abilities from fellow band members on this page:

http://die-augenweide.de/byrds/speak/aboutclarke.htm

The Notorious Byrd Brothers, I believe. Before David Crosby was replaced by a horse iirc.

i hate david crosby

that last letter on that page, jesus....

also checked out the new Marty Stuart record mentioned, very good stuff, not outright mimicry but definitely hits that spaced out country rock Byrds vibe very well, some great guitar playing

yeesh, yeah that letter!

people have such weird ideas about drummers — like it's more of a sport than music (see the recent drama over Meg White). Clarke certainly had his limitations, but he was awesome more often than not. It's interesting to have these guys during this period who were basically garage rock drummers being asked to really play beyond themselves. "Eight Miles High," totally — also "Why" ... Clarke pretty much lifts the entire band during the instrumental break.

that said, there's a few flying burrito bros. live things where Clarke is a total mess. (the whole band is a total mess, to be fair)

Speaking of Notorious, this is inessential but fun: "In honor of the passing of the great David Crosby, I offer this album reimagining: an alternate version of The Byrds’ classic psychedelic rock masterpiece The Notorious Byrd Brothers, which presumes David Crosby had not left the band, and is featured as an equal to Roger McGuinn. To do this, we will restructure the album to feature recordings made during the early sessions of the album, which actually featured Crosby."

tylerw otm re: the perception of drummers. I’ll often hear, “Oh, but could ____ have played with ____? Probably not!” as if that’s in any way relevant. Michael Clarke played with who he played with and sounded great with them and made them sound great. What difference does it make if he possibly couldn’t measure up to a hypothetical situation?

I usually like/love rock band drummers such as Ringo and Bill Berry, to name two favorites, but Michael Clarke always felt like where I drew the line. At least he has been replaced as least favorite Byrd by Skip Battin.

"well, everyone knows crosby got replaced by a horse. what this album presupposes is... maybe he didn't”

hahaha

I usually like/love rock band drummers such as Ringo and Bill Berry, to name two favorites, but Michael Clarke always felt like where I drew the line. At least he has been replaced as least favorite Byrd by Skip Battin.

― The Original Human Beat Surrender (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, June 1, 2023 10:56 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i don't understand this at all, esp the "where I draw the line" part (feels like you're sort of slagging Ringo and Berry in a way)? what in particular are you hearing on Byrds records in terms of the drumming?

I was reading Eno’s diary and there’s a mention of listening to tapes that Quine made for him of Byrds rarities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUHQBmpN76o

what in particular are you hearing on Byrds records in terms of the drumming?

Curious about this myself. Also, I can never remember which album came first -- Turn! Turn! Turn! or Mr. Tambourine Man -- so I often have to look it up: "Is this the one with session players?" I don't hear any qualitative difference. If Clarke was such a shitty (or even just mediocre) drummer, the difference between those two records would be pretty stark.

The Wrecking Crew played on their debut single, but when it came time to record more songs to make their first LP, the band insisted on playing those tracks themselves. (For whatever reason, this rarely seems to get fact-checked whenever news or magazine articles mistakenly claim that the Wrecking Crew played on the whole album - it happened again with multiple outlets after Crosby died.)

...

― birdistheword

Aha! See, no one can even tell the difference! Blaine's a little too splashy on the hi-hat on "Tambourine," and Clarke has a heavier and more convincing groove throughout the rest of the album (especially on "Bells of Rhymney").

The Stuart group definitely nods at Bakersfield and the Dead too. There is a little thing in one video that even references an early Stones album cover.

Kenny Vaughn is a good interview and has had an interesting life and career. There is some interviews he does talking about seeing the Dead in the early 70s in Denver (among other things).

Totally not slagging Ringo, not really slagging Bill Berry, maybe just tweaking him a bit. I just don’t hear anything particularly exciting from Mike Clarke, when I listen, the way I might hear when I focus on, say, Chris Hillman.

“Where I draw the line” was just some kind of rhetorical overstatement that I will somehow never be able to live down now that you have successfully outed me as some kind of Buddy Rich Or Die fanatic.

"well, everyone knows crosby got replaced by a horse. what this album presupposes is... maybe he didn't”

I’m also waiting for y’all to accuse me of slagging on Levon Helm or not appreciating Clem Cattini.

Not a big enough fan of Christopher Mars.

Oh hey, I just discovered the awesome discofied version of “Eight Miles High” on
Flesh and Blood to distract myself while you circle the wagons.

Maybe I should go on a Pink Floyd thread and see what people are saying about Nick Mason.

it's cool sorry if that came off more aggressive than intended

You’re making me sorry, sorry somehow.

Okay, I’ll stop

One of my favourite Byrds covers is Grant McLennan's 'Ballad of Easy Rider'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcPJfbHQro

Wow, never knew that existed, thanks! I say this and haven’t even clicked yet.

Many xxx-posts...

Surprised no-one posted the bonus track from the Notorious... reissue with the recording of McGuinn and Hillman fighting with Clarke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsVs9-W0eSQ

Maybe it was already posted upthread? Plus it’s definitely David not Roger- and he even mentions a horse!

The Troggs did it better. Crosby might be an asshole but he's right about the drumming on this track.

Lol about The Troggs.

Fairport cover Gene Clark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvWxOxme9Lw

They sure had good taste.

^love this one!

Think I first heard it as part of some BBC sessions.

Which that is, I now see in the fine print.

Yeah, I've just got it on the original Heyday, which is like 10-12 performances from the Beeb; the 2002 reissue is 20 tracks, and the 4-disc box is still around, and yeah they had taste for sure. Don't think they did any more Byrds-related material, unless some of the same trad.
The Hillmen s/t doesn't have any Chris originals, but they do a couple of Dylan songs, like this one--whole reissue is here (note inclusion of the Gosdin Brothers, later with Gene, and with Clarence White on their own late 60s The Sound of Goodbye)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8VP7kIXKDY

I believe Joe Boyd would bring a lot of records over from the US for them to listen to. Also he was involved with the Move in some way and they covered the Byrds, Moby Grape and Love.

The Move covered all of those?!
Gosdin Brothers' Sounds (plural) of Goodbye has Byrds appeal, as well it might:

The GOSDIN BROTHERS - Sounds Of Goodbye . Us . 1968 .
(Folk Rock) (Country Rock)
Vern Gosdin - Vocals , Guitar , Songwriter
Rex Gosdin - Vocals , Guitar , Songwriter
&
Gib Guilbeau - Rhythm Guitar , Fiddle , Songwriter
Gene Parsons - Drums , Harmonica
Clarence White - Lead Guitar , Rhythm Guitar , Dobro , Songwriter
Wayne Moore - Bass , Rhythm Guitar , Songwriter
Gary S. Paxton - Producer , Songwriter
Kenny Johnson - Guitar
Dennis Payne - Guitar , Bass

I was led to it by young Kelsey Waldon's cover of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdDHi6gIdKw

The Move covered all of those?!

"So You Want to Be a Rock and Roll Star" (and "Goin' Back" and "Eight Miles High"!), "Hey Grandma" and "Stephanie Knows Who".

Richard Thompson has mentioned this before (and it may be in his recent memoir), but when Fairport Convention covered their favorite contemporary songwriters, they purposely chose songs that weren't so well-known at the time. As a result, they produced just as many definitive or near-definitive versions of Dylan songs as the Byrds: "I'll Keep It With Mine," "Million Dollar Bash," "Percy's Song," "Dear Landlord," "Si Tu Dois Partir" (aka "If You Gotta Go, Go Now"), etc.

Whenever I listen to Another Side of Bob Dylan, I almost feel like I'm listening to a demo session for the Byrds - four of the best songs became great Byrds recordings. Only "Chimes of Freedom" was equaled by Dylan simply because it's a great, epic set of lyrics and so much of it was cut out by the Byrds.

Don't think they did any more Byrds-related material

this is beautiful, technically a mcguinn/dylan tune

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1qlcBWC0EI

also Iain Matthews did a few Gene Clark songs post-Fairport

Ah! Thanks!

Sandy Denny: vocal; Richard Thompson, Simon Nicol: guitars; Ashley Hutchings: bass; Dave Mattacks: drums.

This was Fairport Convention's encore at the time. Recorded at Sound Techniques in 1969 as part of the Liege and Lief sessions, it was later released on Richard Thompson's collection (Guitar, Vocal), on the Sandy Denny anthologies No More Sad Refrains and A Boxful of Treasures, and as bonus track of the 2003 reissue of Fairport Convention's album Unhalfbricking.

A live version without Sandy was released in 1977 on the Island Records 2LP set Richard Thompson Live! (more or less)

Then you’ll probably enjoy this:

https://500songs.com/podcast/episode-139-eight-miles-high-by-the-byrds/

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, May 30, 2023 4:58 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

i started this and it seemed great, so i actually ended up going back to the first episode. so now i'm all up in lionel hampton and big joe turner etc but i'm excited to hear this someday