Take a Sad Song and Extract Every Last Ounce of Spontaneity from It: the Beatles Uber-Ballad Poll

Damn--meant to add two more options: "I'm indifferent to all five" and "I hate all five."

I'm voting for "Something".

For me, it's a little less over-played, more modest, and an easier song to still like in 2015, but I think you're probably right, I should have included that.

"Yesterday," although I never want to hear it again.

Macca's worst moments here. Inclined to go w Let It Be cuz of the gtr solo and its not being 7 minutes long.

Something is better than all of these tho.

It is, I agree, and without giving it any thought, that may be why I never thought to include it--it would trounce everything here. I just don't think it works up the same level of hostility in some people that these five songs do.

Let it be and LongWinding are often seen as a pair, but I still hear more in "Let it be" when I hear it, and if I never hear TLAWR ever again etc.

"Hey Jude" by a mile.

"Let It Be" second, especially version with grittier guitar solo. "Michelle" third, for using classic "composite minor" line

I am always in the mood to hear Yesterday. Can't say that about the others.

These are all the musical version of yawning.

Hard to think of a version of "Yesterday" I can tolerate.

I think this is "Yesterday" vs "MIchelle"; leaning towards the former. I'll entertain the case for "Let It Be". None comes close to being a favourite Beatles song.

I just listened to all three (OK, half of "Let It Be") and voted "Michelle".

There is something ponderous and overwrought about most of these. Generally proffer some of Macca's lighter, more tossed-off sounding earlier solo work- "Another Day" for example.

yesterday - 2:02
long and winding road - 3:40
hey jude - 7:04
let it be - 4:00
michelle - 2:43

michelle feels like the one that doesn't belong in this set. i suppose it's technically a ballad but it doesn't feel plodding and hungover like the others (except yesterday) do. yesterday has been ruined for humanity by being too popular. but it's a fantastic composition. wish i could hear it again for the first time. long and winding road is a very bad song, and it makes me glad the beatles broke up. hey jude and let it be feature macca doing his really bad motown impersonation that many people seem to love, apparently.

'something' is the one i'd still turn up the volume for

today i was at the federal garden show in brandenburg and guess what the choir sang? yesterday. and i liked it, it even took me a couple of seconds to realize what it was. a cappella singing can make songs better, i think. at least they sound a little different, not as perfect as any official recording with instruments. the real stinker here is surely "the long and winding road". that's so schmaltzy and so common at the same time. of course i voted "hey jude". compared to yesterday it indeed has got the advantage that i haven't heard as many times.

one of the first albums I ever got really invested in was my parents cassette of The Beatles Ballads which I would listen to over and over when I was about 9 or 10, and Michelle + The Long and Winding Road in particular seemed incredibly grown up and mysterious and profound to me, I still feel a little hurt when I'm reminded that the general consensus is that they are tacky and embarrassing. I still like them! I don't know if I'm channeling the memory of how I heard them when I was a kid or if my taste in art is just horribly stunted. There are some nice covers of The Long and Winding Road imo, especially the George Benson, Billy Ocean and Mina versions

Let It Be was my least favourite by some distance when I was a kid, it felt like an overly familiar school assembly plod compared to all the other exciting enigmatic stuff going on in the other songs, I do like it more as an adult, especially after I was introduced to the idea of it being a song about his mother

"Michelle" does have a cool early 60s Euro vibe to it. I imagine there were lots of suave French-language covers.

"Yesterday" would be nothing without the middle 8 imo.

"Hey Jude" is far more tolerable when you watch the video of them performing it live on the David Frost show, I'm a huge fan of the 60s fashions everyone has on display, as well as the backing vocals.

Ringo's at his best on "Hey Jude"; ergo, the Beatles are at their best on "Hey Jude."

There are some nice covers of The Long and Winding Road imo, especially the George Benson, Billy Ocean and Mina versions

probably the definitive version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0xnat3iYR8

the key missing song to me, besides "something," is "in my life." but add 'em both and i'm still voting for "yesterday."

Yeah, both Something and In My Life should've been here and Michelle probably shouldn't have.

michelle feels like the one that doesn't belong in this set.

Musically, it has a different feel than the others, I agree (minor chords? I'm not a musician, but that often explains stuff that feels different to me). It's uber, though-- "the 42nd most performed song of the 20th century" according to BMI.

http://www.archer2000.net/sbs/awardsbmi.html

"Something" is 17th on that list...I'll stand by the idea that it would have made the poll lopsided, but I think I did goof, I should have included it.

I don't think "In My Life" is as famous--maybe better (it's never been a personal favourite), but not as famous.

And I Love Her should be in here too: one of Macca's loveliest ballads.

I don't think "In My Life" is as famous

You must not go to a lot of weddings.

x-post - admittedly not an uber-ballad. Too quiet and reflective.

Anytime you do a poll based on an idea, rather than factual numbers (or somebody else's list), there's room for disagreement. I think "Something" belongs. But when you get into "And I Love Her," it's just a different level of fame. Ditto "In My Life." (Occasionally.)

In order of "I've got plenty of time for this" to "never want to hear it again" -

(Something) >>>>>>> Michelle >>>>> Yesterday > Let It Be > Hey Jude >>>>>>>> LAWR

So much Beatles challops in this thread (and with a guest appearance from the "Ringo was a great drummer" challops as well). "Hey Jude", "Let It Be", "Yesterday" and "The Long and Winding Road" are four of the Beatles' greatest songs, and I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists. Yet on ILM they are stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc. "Michelle" I can take or leave but the others are pure gold. Voted TLAWR by a nose from Let It Be.

Yet on ILM they are stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc.

they're also stinkers, ponderous, overwrought, plodding etc. to my mom

hi clem and thanks for the shout

i quite like "Hey Jude" and "Michelle" but obv the Beatles shd fuck off

four of the Beatles' greatest songs, and I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists. Yet on ILM they are stinkers

And yeah, do like "Hey Jude" for Tokyo's drumming.

"Thank you, Ringo, that was wonderful."

(and with a guest appearance from the "Ringo was a great drummer" challops as well).

Huh? He was a great drummer, and my post was not meant to be challopsy.

Hating on Ringo was a challops for decades.

Yeah Ringo's drums are one of the best things on "Hey Jude". The build-up, the way he drops in with that ride cymbal, all of it.

Plus the anecdote about him back from a bathroom break and sitting down at the kit after they had already started

random sampling of Google hits - I searched for the Buddy Rich quote- comes up with a good defense here:
http://tommendoladrums.com/ringo-starr-in-defense-of-a-drummers-perspective/

Had never made the connection about song #1 that now makes me go "D'oh!"

I bet they would be at or near the top of most people's lists

Very debatable--not on ILM, anyway. ("Hey Jude" at #26 was the highest-ranking in the ILM poll a few years back.) Anyway, I assure you this thread wasn't meant to provoke. I'm just interested in trying to figure out why a couple of these songs have withstood massive overplay with me, and to compare that with other people's reactions. Maybe it's just completely arbitrary, with no explanation.

XP re:bathroom break. Jeez no wonder he quit the band shortly after.

random sampling of Google hits - I searched for the Buddy Rich quote- comes up with a good defense here:
http://tommendoladrums.com/ringo-starr-in-defense-of-a-drummers-perspective/

Had never made the connection about song #1 that now makes me go "D'oh!"

― Maria Felix Kept On Walking (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, June 7, 2015 2:23 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ha! I'd never made that connection either!

Missing from that list: "Here Comes the Sun." Ringo effortlessly swings through the cycle of 11/8, 4/4, and 7/8 in the bridge.

I still like Let It Be

Songwriting aside, Ringo def. my favorite player of the 4

Voted TLAWR by a nose from Let It Be.

It's between these two for me. TLAWR is devastating, it really sounds like the end of a relationship. how can people rep for "without you" on the nilsson poll and badmouth this??

'michelle' seems to have lost a bit of the cultural cachet it had when i was young (i.e. the '90s), feels like i heard it all the time then but it's somehow become a relic of that time for me

girl > michelle

Bear with me, haters, but there's this part in the Billy Joel bio about his shows closing out Shea Stadium in its final year. This whole chapter about how they had to add a second show, controversies in ticket prices, how Joel rounded up all of these celebrity guests like Tony Bennett to sing "New York State of Mind" -- all leading up to trying to get Paul McCartney to show up as the cherry on top.

Negotiations went on for weeks, Paul jetting across the Atlantic, still in the air when the show started. Joel gets a note midway through proclaiming that his secret guest was "in New York airspace." Plane lands, McCartney and crew get rushed out by the airport by NYPD, bypassing Customs supposedly, with a motorcade all the way out to Queens.

McCartney comes on with Billy, crowd goes wild, they do some songs, and backstage before the final encore in Joel's hometown, McCartney says, "You know what you we have to close it out with, right?" Joel, deferring to his hero, says "What did you have in mind?" ... and Paul says, "We have to close it out with... LET IT BE."

You can just about hear the air leave the sails, deflating the whole chapter with those words. You get this idea that wherever Macca goes, he's doing something like telling Neil Young at the Bridge Benefit 'YOU KNOW WHAT WE HAVE TO CLOSE IT OUT WITH, RIGHT?"

whereas Joel wanted him to close with "Daytime Nighttime Suffering."

'michelle' seems to have lost a bit of the cultural cachet it had when i was young

This had crossed my mind too--it's not quite as uber as when I first started obsessing over the Beatles (early/mid-'70s). Didn't know this till I looked it up: it won the Grammy for Song of the Year in '67. The competition--"Born Free", "The Impossible Dream", "Somewhere My Love," and "Strangers in the Night"--is perfect. I'm sure "Michelle" seemed like it was from a different universe at the time; today, the continuum there is much greyer.

(I would have voted for either "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35" or the Mothers' "Trouble Every Day," but apparently neither was nominated.)

today, the continuum there is much greyer.

I dunno, so are the voters still.

I would have voted for "I'm indifferent to all five" if that had been included in the choices. As is I voted for Yesterday.

Has to be TLAWR, just to annoy Beatles fans.

what about "while my guitar gently weeps"?

"Yesterday" is great

(xpost) It seems like something very different to me. I wouldn't even call it a ballad, even though it's slow--seems more like trancey drug music.

Am I supposed to vote for the song which most deserves to fuck off or which song can be spared whilst its brothers suffer a miserable, bloody death? I still like Michelle. Hey Jude on the other hand makes me want to walk around and slap strangers.

"michelle" is definitely the one i enjoy most now, it seems a lot more jokey and droll than soppy. definitely feels more spontaneous and innocent than the other songs, you can just imagine 23-year-old paul beaming with pride at how sharp and sophisticated he sounds putting these french lines into his song.

Vote for the one you like best, FFM, if there is one.

J.D. OTM, "Michelle"'s lightheartedness wins it for me. Second place probably "Yesterday," and then a three-way tie of indifference.

all great songs hope all ilmers die

Paul's poking fun at himself and his limited French, right?

lord please take me first for posting in the ira kaplan vs neil haggerty thread

I'm voting "Let It Be" right now partly because of the version with the better solo (the snarly one that rises out of the organ break). Also because the I-vi-IV-V progression can be so agreeably mashed up with "No Woman No Cry," "Tomorrow Wendy," "You're Beautiful," "Torn," and so very many other songs.

well too late, i voted for the most unbearable (HJ)

NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Judy Juude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey judey jude!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Jude Juuuude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey wooo-yeah!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Judy! Judy! a-juuuude looks like a juuude-ay!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(a-Jude jude, wooo, a-yeah whoo-oa-yeah jude!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(I said a-Judy Juude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey judey jude!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Whoa now Jude Juuuude, a-juuuude, a-juuudey wooo-yeah!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(Judy! Judy! a-juuuude looks like a juuude-ay!)
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!
NAAAAAA, NAA, NAA, NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA! NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAAA, Heeeey Juuude!(I said whoa a-Jude jude, wooo, a-yeah whoo-oa-yeah jude!)
(repeat hundreds of times until audience is dead)

a-juuuude looks like a juuude-ay!

irl lol

oh, someone transcribed paul's adlibbing during the outro:

“Jude Judy Judy Judy Judy Judy… ow, wahow!"
"Ow ho, my my my"
"Jude Jude Jude Jude Joooo……"
"Na na na na na, yeh yeh yeh"
"Yeah you know you can make it, yeah Jude, you not gotta break it"
"Don’t make it bad Jude"
"Take a sad song and make it better"
"Oh Jude, Jude, hey Jude, woooooow"
"Oh, Jooooooode"
"Yeah"
"hey, hey, hey-yay"
"Hey, hey, hey"
"Now Jude Jude Jude Jude Jude Jude, yeah yeah yeah yeah"
"Woh yeah yeah"
"ah nanananananana cause I wanna"
"Nanananana…. nanalalal ow ow ow"
"oh God"
"The pain won’t come back Jude"
"Yeah, eh hehe heh"
"Make it through"
"Yeyeye Yeah… yeah y-yeah… yeah hahahaha…"
"Godeveningladiesandgentlemen mymymymy mahhhhh"
"ooooo"
"woooooh"
"Well then a na-nanan”

I'm voting for the version of "Yesterday" that my college a capella group did that had an interpolation of Schuetz-style choral arrangements on the reprise of the first verse.

can we poll those options

xpost

Yeah

imagining this as a Beavis and Butthead exchange:

"The pain won’t come back Jude"
"Yeah, eh hehe heh"

I like this story:

http://www.stereogum.com/4447/love_is_hey_jude_on_repeat/news/

predictably/gratifyingly someone has uploaded a 10 hour edit of the Hey Jude outro to youtube

though listening to it, it seems like they have just looped the first couple of minutes of na na na nas and don't even get to the 'ju-deh ju-deh ju-dehwow oh-wow!' part? maybe they kick in around the six hour mark or something

why the need to make a sad song better in the first place? what if it was a good sad song? what if jude, by mucking with it, makes it worse?

julian doesn't have to worry about having good songs

Saw a possible vanity license plate today on a car that had a help! window sticker and some kind of beatles license plate holder. It doesn't make any sense, but doesn't fit any of my state's standard alphanumeric configurations either. Any chance it's beatles-related?

027M527

OATMEAL?

oh fuck, maybe that's it.

nvm, that's probably not it. They'd have used a 3 for the E.

"Julia"

Tempted to vote for Hey Jude just for

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDs571E9k4

argh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNDs571E9k4

One thing "Hey Jude" has going for it is the audible "Aw fuckin' 'ell" at 2:59.

I'm voting for "Something".

― mike t-diva,

As it stands, Yesterday. I quite dislike Jude, LAWR and LIB, Michelle is pretty but minor compared to Yesterday I think.

Although JoeStork makes a very fine point.

"Michelle" does have a cool early 60s Euro vibe to it. I imagine there were lots of suave French-language covers.

anyone know of any good ones?

"Hey Jude"
"Let It Be"
"Yesterday"
"The Long and Winding Road"
"Michelle"

"The Long and Winding Road" would have worked better in a more diversified, eclectic album context, the same way that "Good Night" works on the White Album.

Tim's order is very close to my own--switch the bottom two. I still like "Hey Jude" fine; don't know why. "Let It Be," I don't mind. Like someone said earlier, I wish I could hear "Yesterday" for the first time again--I think there's genius in it, but I wore it out at a young age. (There's a George Martin interview clip somewhere where he talks about "Yesterday" and how it was done in the studio...it's fantastic--you can tell it's just about the proudest moment of his life.) I recognize "Michelle" for the good song it is, very unusual, but even going back to when I was a teenager, I was always indifferent to it. "The Long and Winding Road" is the only one of the five I flat-out dislike. Maybe a different arrangement would work for me--I find the orchestral original hopelessly saccharine.

Back in 1971, the big hit-radio station here did a Top 300 countdown. I was 10, and it was a very big deal. Three of these songs--"Let It Be" (#1, I'm pretty sure), "The Long and Winding Road," and "Hey Jude" were in the Top 10.

These must rank amongst the five worst songs in the Beatles catalogue. Something pisses over all of these sappy ballads.

i've always had a soft spot for "Let It Be" and "Yesterday" has never been dimmed by overplay for me, so one of those. might have to flip a coin.

"Michelle" is probably the most famous Beatles song that i can never hum, no matter how times i hear it. just now i put it on and went 'oh, that one,' but i'm sure i'll forget how it goes tomorrow.

but michelle is so easy to hum, the melody is in the name, just sing the name and the tune unfolds straight from there.

rong and whining choads itt

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Michelle....you smell.

someday monkey play piano song

lol, had forgotten that one.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

lurkers, defend yourselves or face mass reprisal

someday monkey play piano song

― Darin, Sunday, June 14, 2015 1:24 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

someday monkey won't play piano song

I just want to know how "Hey Jude" fit on one side of a 45 when usually 4 minute songs got a verse chopped so it would fit

Wtf

don't look at me i voted "Michelle."

i'm shocked that rong and whining choad got 7 votes

it will never disappear

I just don't get it, do people just really hate the coda of Hey Jude for going on so long?

i love hey jude but i've always found paul's ranting over the coda a little hard to take, it's like he can't quite give in to the good communal feeling and just sing along with everybody else, he has to keep on being the center of attention

I don't have a problem understanding people having issues with parts or aspects of Hey Jude but literally everything about TLAWR from the opening vocal line to the final note is just awful garbage

I salute the 7 people who voted for 'The Long and Winding Road', as I salute Phil Spector for adding the orchestra because my god it sounds like arse without it.

i love hey jude but i've always found paul's ranting over the coda a little hard to take, it's like he can't quite give in to the good communal feeling and just sing along with everybody else, he has to keep on being the center of attention

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.),

yet he blasted George for wanting to answer his lines with guitar wankery

I am sad there is not an isolated bass youtube of Lennon's LAWR bass part, just so I could torture all you Hey Jude voters w it

Um, Shakey, I think those were votes FOR "Hey Jude" and not against

Yes...I was getting progressively more confused in this thread as to what Shakey was trying to say.

Haha oops i thought we were voting for worst

In Edinburgh once I saw a two man, well man and woman, one-man band do a truly awesome version of "Hey Jude." Their names were Pete and Andrea.

This is them, although they don't perform that particular song, alas.https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=373542729400063&id=118032478296415&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr

Shakey is OTM regarding Lennon's bass playing on 'The Long and Winding Road', though. I actually really like 'The Long and Winding Road', but I can't get on board with the McCartney point of view that the Phil Spector overdubs ruined the track. If anything, it was just the dressing the track needed to distract the listener from the fact that the performances of The Beatles themselves on that song (apart from McCartney, who is obviously the most into it) are incredibly fucking woeful.

For some reason, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that McCartney himself would find that take of the song (without overdubs) to be acceptable for release, since he's legendarily a pain in the arse for getting things right.

eh, i don't know. are you talking about the let it be...NAKED version? everyone's playing is pretty uninspired (and john flubs a few notes, if that's him playing bass), but i'd still take it over the string version.it could just be a pet peeve of mine but i can picture the string players earnestly playing their completely boring part with that look in their eyes like "i am playing strings with the beatles, this is very serious and i will occasionally lean very hard into certain notes even though this is the worst song i've accompanied since 7th grade and everything is a whole note" phil spector was obviously capable of cool things but this was not one of them.

always found john's view on "let it be" the song (from his 1980 playboy interview) amusing:

That's Paul. What can you say? Nothing to do with the Beatles. It could've been Wings. I don't know what he's thinking when he writes "Let It Be".

Wilson Pickett's version totally redeems "Hey Jude"

eh, i don't know. are you talking about the let it be...NAKED version? everyone's playing is pretty uninspired (and john flubs a few notes, if that's him playing bass), but i'd still take it over the string version.it could just be a pet peeve of mine but i can picture the string players earnestly playing their completely boring part with that look in their eyes like "i am playing strings with the beatles, this is very serious and i will occasionally lean very hard into certain notes even though this is the worst song i've accompanied since 7th grade and everything is a whole note" phil spector was obviously capable of cool things but this was not one of them.

― legendary wireless executive (Karl Malone), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 2:21 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I would have assumed that '60s string players would have considered playing with The Beatles to be a bit beneath them, if anything.

Let It Be is definitely far from the best of The Beatles albums on the whole from a production and performance standpoint, but I do tend to agree with Lennon on this one... I do think Spector did well to turn those recordings, which, let's face it, aren't what I'd call "prime Beatles", into something releasable.

I kind of like all of these songs? Like, they're not my favourites but I like them all well enough. Never understood why everyone hates TLAWR.

I learned a piano chord I didn't know before from TLAWR, so it gets pass marks from me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2bwlQM8Mas

That's Paul. What can you say? Nothing to do with the Beatles. It could've been Wings. I don't know what he's thinking when he writes "Let It Be".

Well "Let it be" and TLAWR are far from being favorites but I like them. The sadness/depression is touching.
And clearly they're not Beatles' records.
which makes me think that when people say that the iconic songs that remain for Lennon and Harrison are post-Beatles ("Imagine" and "My Sweet Lord" ?) whereas for Macca it's his Beatles songs that will be remembered("Yesterday", "Hey Jude" ?), I guess "Let it be" could count as his post-beatles iconic song that will be played when he passes away...

So "Imagine" Vs "My Sweet Lord" Vs "Let it Be" : FITE!
what about Ringo ?

when people say that the iconic songs that remain for Lennon and Harrison are post-Beatles ("Imagine" and "My Sweet Lord" ?) whereas for Macca it's his Beatles songs that will be remembered("Yesterday", "Hey Jude" ?)

Uh, 'Live and Let Die'?

Sure but "Let it Be" is another level of popularity.
Thinking about it, it's clearly his "Imagine".

everyone's playing is pretty uninspired (and john flubs a few notes, if that's him playing bass)

It is, and Ian MacDonald wrote that Lennon's playing (and passing off what is essentially a rehearsal/run-through as a finished track) amounted to "sabotage" of McCartney's song.

which makes me think that when people say that the iconic songs that remain for Lennon and Harrison are post-Beatles ("Imagine" and "My Sweet Lord" ?) whereas for Macca it's his Beatles songs that will be remembered("Yesterday", "Hey Jude" ?)

he's got nine #1s in America and countless top tens. If not, "Maybe I'm Amazed" or "Jet" will do in a pinch.

Well, that's the thing: Macca's post beatles career has been way more successful of the four, but.

but what?

but Maybe I'm Amazed isn't a quarter as well known as Yesterday or even The Long And Winding Road.

The argument is that Lennon and Harrison have iconic solo songs, but Paul McCartney, who has had more hits and airplay than those two combined, doesn't? OK.

Try singing a bit of "Silly Love Songs" or "Band on the Run" to anyone over fifty who grew up on AM radio.

UK perspective is probably different from the US one, not that Macca isn't the most successful ex-Beatle here either.

xp UK perspective here indeed, but I feel that while those are famous songs, they're not I dunno 'iconic' - they work fine among a tapestry of other songs by Bread, the Carpenters, Andrew Gold and all sorts of other power pop, but I couldn't name a solo McCartney song that people define the man by: it's always Yesterday or Let It Be really.

oh yeah he was a bigger solo presence in the United States.

LOL Mull of Kintyre!

I couldn't even tell you how Mull of Kintyre goes, and that was a HUGE hit. The McCartney hits I grew up with was 'No More Lonely Nights' and 'The Frogs Chorus', but we sang things like 'Imagine', 'Obla-Di', 'Yellow Submarine' and 'Yesterday' in school as if they were part of a songbook.

I don't think he plays Mull of Kintyre anymore, but maybe that's because it was co-written by Denny Laine... and is dreary crap into the bargain.

"Band on the Run" is probably the most US-centric iconic solo Paul, I've heard that one the most times in public places, grocery stores, etc.

Tried to find LAWR official video on youtube. It's not there. There used to be an official Beatles account featuring most of the videos but it seems to be gone now.

He bought Denny's share back off him.

Oh, and btw, "but." is shorthand for what DL and Alfred said, um.. (looks).. Alfred.

of course, "Mull of Kintyre" !
but it's still far from "Let it Be" in terms of popularity. I mean, "Let it Be" is like the one song that Macca will play at the end of any concert (his or someone else's !)

My sister thought 'Obla-Di' was rude, it *was* the way she sang it: "Oh, bloody.."

and it's the song that was covered by various charity supergroups !

of course, "Mull of Kintyre" !

Maybe...but not in the US:

"Mull of Kintyre" was not a pop hit at all in the US, but did manage to reach #45 on the Easy Listening chart.[11][12]

but Maybe I'm Amazed isn't a quarter as well known as Yesterday or even The Long And Winding Road.

― boat of boats (dog latin), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:59 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That may have something to do with the fact that The Beatles discography covers a finite period of time (1962-1970), so it's very easy to see all of that as being "one" body of work. It was the band that McCartney became famous as a member of, and the songs have been played to death over the years. Newcomers to Beatle music are naturally more inclined to check out The Beatles music before they delve into the solo careers.

Paul McCartney's post-Beatles stuff, by comparison, is still an ongoing thing - it's a large and very vast discography which at this stage takes a large amount of time to sift through from end to end. Sure, it's easy to say that Wings could be treated as "one" thing too, but I don't think a lot of people do. I think most people see Paul McCartney's post-Beatles catalogue as Paul McCartney music. McCartney himself doesn't do his own solo output any favours: he's had hit after hit after hit post-Beatles (you'd be surprised at how many) and yet there's a lot that he doesn't play in live performances. His interviews tend to feature more anecdotes about The Beatles rather than his solo career, and because he is always pumping out fresh material, if he gets radio play, the focus will be on his newer material. That's not to say that his older stuff doesn't get airplay - it does - but he always seems to have something new out, and he has a lot of material, so it's a little difficult for people to take stock of all that McCartney has done over the years.

John Lennon's solo career is easy to sum up, again because it covers a finite period of time, and because he didn't make all that many solo albums... he spent half of his post-Beatles decade as a house husband. All of his singles and choice highlights could easily fit onto one CD, making his solo years easy to digest. In terms of radio play, there's a very small pool of singles for radio to pick from his solo career - and since he's passed away, it's these choice cuts which have naturally got played to death on the airwaves. His small pool of singles has had far more exposure than McCartney's vast ocean of singles, since McCartney hasn't stopped putting 'em out.

As for George Harrison: 'My Sweet Lord' is of course the biggie, and some of the All Things Must Pass tracks have become classics to dedicated Beatle followers/music geeks, but aside from that? As much as I love tracks like 'Blow Away', they're not as embedded in the public consciousness as 'My Sweet Lord' is, not by a million miles. His other big hit, 'Got My Mind Set On You', he didn't even fucking write!

I dunno man. When I think of John Lennon, it's him in his white suit and his white piano singing Imagine and Jealous Guy. He had a lot of other famous songs too - Nobody Told Me, Woman, Watching the Wheels etc. I don't picture McCartney or any of his songs in quite the same way.

I mean, here's a list of killer and/or popular McCartney singles right here:

1. Another Day
2. Too Many People (B-side of 'Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey')
3. The Back Seat Of My Car
4. My Love
5. Live and Let Die
6. Jet
7. Band On The Run
8. Listen To What The Man Said
9. Letting Go
10. Silly Love Songs
11. Let 'Em In (Yes, I mean Billy Paul covered it and also scored a hit with it)
12. Maybe I'm Amazed
13. Mull Of Kintyre
14. With A Little Luck
15. Old Siam, Sir
16. Getting Closer
17. Arrow Through Me
18. Coming Up
19. Temporary Secretary
20. Ebony and Ivory
21. Take It Away
22. Say Say Say
23. Pipes Of Peace
24. No More Lonely Nights
25. We All Stand Together (hated by many for some of the most ridiculous reasons - it's a song for children, for fucks sake - and it's not actually that bad a song with the frog chorus noises removed and is actually very well orchestrated)
26. Spies Like Us
27. Press
28. Only Love Remains
29. Once Upon A Long Ago
30. My Brave Face
31. This One
32. Figure Of Eight
33. Hope Of Deliverance
34. Young Boy
35. Beautiful Night
36. Fine Line
37. Dance Tonight
38. Ever Present Past
39. Sing The Changes
40. Save Us

and that's before you get to the hidden gems that are on the albums.

I don't think anybody here thinks or says Macca has less or worse solo hits than his fellow Beatles
It's just that none of them reach the iconic level of "Imagine" as THE song that symbolizes the singer... except "Let it be" (if we consider it a solo song, like Lennon did) !

That said, did "Imagine" already had this iconic aspect before Lennon died (certainly not the level it reached after of course) ?

* and maybe, like, 5 of those above songs are likely to be well-known by the average person, right? I only know about half of them and things like Back Seat of My Car is hardly an iconic hit.

I dunno man. When I think of John Lennon, it's him in his white suit and his white piano singing Imagine and Jealous Guy. He had a lot of other famous songs too - Nobody Told Me, Woman, Watching the Wheels etc. I don't picture McCartney or any of his songs in quite the same way.

― boat of boats (dog latin), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 3:04 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's telling that three of the songs you mentioned are either from Double Fantasy or Milk and Honey - those tracks ('Nobody Told Me', 'Woman', 'Watching The Wheels') were all released as singles after Lennon was murdered. 'Jealous Guy', although it was first released on the Imagine album in 1971, wasn't released as a single until 1985 (again, after Lennon's death) - 'Imagine' is a strange one, because it was released as a single in the US but not in the UK in 1971 (it was a US #3) - however, it did make it to #6 in the UK when it was re-released to promote the Shaved Fish compilation. It did eventually make it to #1 in the UK, but again after Lennon's death.

Conclusion: airplay of Lennon's songs from his brief solo career skyrocketed after he died, obviously helping people become very familiar with his solo material. Well, the ones they could play, anyway: for some reason I can't imagine (hohoho) 'Cold Turkey', 'Woman Is The ****** Of The World' or 'Mother' getting much airtime.

Or any of the solo stuff from before the Beatles broke up.

I do remember "Working Class Hero" getting played at the fade of the BBC's Lennon tribute that night.

"Mother" and "The Dream is over" also got a fair bit of play around that time.

Also, "Give Peace a Chance" has always been up there.

.. which was before the Beatles broke up..

That's interesting and fair enough, Turrican. I wonder what UK hits did Lennon have in his time then?

eleanor rigby is the worst beatles song in this category

and maybe, like, 5 of those above songs are likely to be well-known by the average person, right? I only know about half of them and things like Back Seat of My Car is hardly an iconic hit.

― boat of boats (dog latin), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 3:22 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well, I didn't include all the singles! But of the ones I listed there, yeah, I'd say that half of them would be comfortably well-known to the average person, maybe more... and no, 'Back Seat Of My Car' wasn't a big hit, but it's a fucking great single and I'm sure it'll become iconic after McCartney passes away and everyone says how they thought his solo stuff was great all this time.

"Press" should be higher

"Peace a Chance" was written to be a Beatles song, it's was even credited Lennon-McCartney when released.

UK/US perspectives... keep those in mind. US is kind of lunatic abt the Beatles in a way the UK has never been.

Was it? I thought Lennon gave Macca credit as a return for services rendered on "The Ballad of John and Yoko."

Was it? I thought Lennon gave Macca credit as a return for services rendered on "The Ballad of John and Yoko."

yup.

That's interesting and fair enough, Turrican. I wonder what UK hits did Lennon have in his time then?

― boat of boats (dog latin), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 3:40 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

UK hits:

Give Peace A Chance (UK #2)
Instant Karma (UK #5)
Power To The People (UK #7)
Happy Xmas (War Is Over) (UK #2)
Imagine - 1975 release (UK #6)
(Just Like) Starting Over (UK - Peaked at #8, fell to #21, then #1 after Lennon's death)

UK flops:

Cold Turkey (UK #14)
Mind Games (UK #26)
Whatever Gets You Thru The Night (UK #36 - but was a US #1!)
#9 Dream (UK #23)
Stand By Me (UK #30)

#14 is hardly a flop

as for TLAWR, it was written as a Ray Charles sog and it kinda works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhVy3Tx07vA

"Press" should be higher

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 3:44 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It wasn't a ranked list, but if it was then yeah, it'd be up there. I know you've always had a soft spot for that track!

#14 is hardly a flop

― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 3:53 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It is when you're a Beatle. In 1969. After releasing a solo single that made it to #2. Yeah, I'd say it was a flop.

a very hard spot!

xpost

I think it did pretty well to reach #14 tbh (xp)

yeah #14 for the king beatle in 69 is clearly a flop !

ha – didn't Lennon return his medal on the grounds that "Cold Turkey" was a chart flop?

Hehehehe yeah, that was one of the reasons given...

eheh he was such a dick sometimes.

Not at all, that was funny!

yeah, that too. he could be both !

I'm not even going to bother listing the chart positions for all of McCartney's singles, but yeah, loads of top ten hits, plenty of UK #1 hits... 'Mull Of Kintyre' was a million seller. Plenty of US hits too, as Alfred already pointed out.

I think to most Americans Paul is the guy singing that weird synthy song playing in every store at Christmas time.

Or the guy who plays the guitar for Rihanna.

One reason Paul had the most successful solo career was that he more or less was constantly recording and playing music, George just stopping playing live in the mid 70s, John had the Lost Weekend and then quit music altogether for half a decade, Ringo doing more movie stuff, etc. It's not like they were all continuously engaging w the music industry on the same level.

'My Love', 'Band On The Run', 'Listen To What The Man Said', 'Silly Love Songs', 'With A Little Luck', 'Coming Up', 'Ebony and Ivory' and 'Say Say Say' were the US chart toppers. Funny how 'Mull Of Kintyre' became a UK million seller, but didn't make #1 in the US. Having said that, 'Pipes Of Peace' was a UK #1 as well.

Ringo didn't stop making music – it just sucked.

Ringo just wanted to play. I always thought he should've spent his post-Beatles years as the drummer in a band like The Band or Moby Grape.

Yeah, George stopped playing live in the mid '70s, but he didn't really slow down on his album output until 1982's Gone Troppo. He released eight albums from 1970-1982, but then only two albums (1987's Cloud Nine and 2002's posthumous Brainwashed) after that.

Of course, Paul was also writing and recording songs that people liked and clearly wanted to buy.

If only all of Ringo's stuff was as good as 'It Don't Come Easy'.

Paul is a hustler (I don't mean this in a bad way fwiw) w a pathological need for approval in a way the others weren't imo

By the way:

It Don't Come Easy (UK #4)
Back Off Boogaloo (UK #2)
Photograph (UK #8)
You're Sixteen (UK #4)

^^^

Four Top 10 hits. That's the same amount of UK Top 10 hits from 1969-1974 as Lennon achieved in the same time period.

(Given that the UK 'Imagine' single was issued in '75, and '(Just Like) Starting Over' was '80)

Also, looking at Harrison's UK chart positions, it would seem that even though he never stopped making albums, the hits had pretty much dried up from 1974-1987.

My Sweet Lord (UK #1)
Bangla-Desh (UK #10)
Give Me Love (Give Me Peace On Earth) (UK #8)

then...

Ding Dong (UK #38)
You (UK #38)
Blow Away (UK #51)
All Those Years Ago (UK #13)

then...

Got My Mind Set On You (UK #2)
When We Was Fab (#25)
This Is Love (UK #55)
Any Road (#37)

for a while in America Ringo was the most successful solo Beatle on the Hot 100.

Seriously? I assume that would have been around the time of the Ringo album, right?

every song between "It Don't Come Easy" and "No No Song/Snookeroo" hit the top ten.

it wasn't even close. George was the biggest solo Beatle as far as album sales until 1973.

Man, Ringo's US singles run from 1971-1975 was nuts:

"It Don't Come Easy" (#4)
"Back Off Boogaloo" (#9)
"Photograph" (#1)
"You're Sixteen" (#1)
"Oh My My" (#5)
"Only You (And You Alone)" (#6)
"No No Song" (#3)

every one of those is songs is at least a B+ or B too.

Holy shit, you guys took to Ringo's solo stuff far more than we ever did, it has to be said!

I'm guessing Paul overtook everyone from 1973 onwards.

Ahah the top 3 most listenned songs for macca on Spotify are :
#3 live and let Die
#2 let it be
And by very far.... #1 three four seconds !
That said it's the live version of let it be.

It helps that McCartney still plays 'Live and Let Die' in his live sets.

Hang on, 'Only Mama Knows' wasn't a single? If there's any track on Memory Almost Full that should have been one. There's some great live renditions of that floating about.

I think I've talked about this here before, but I used to share a flat with a guy who was a complete Beatles fanatic and had hundreds of books on them (this explains why, even though I'm not a Beatles fan, I know shitloads about them). This thread reminded me of it, and I found this post:

Ha Tom, I remember about 30 years ago when I was a nipper and would go to the library and read Roy Carr's The Beatles: An Illustrated Record

Ha ha, is that the one where he goes thru the solo records too? And demolishes all of them, but especially George Harrison. I think he quite liked some of Ringo's albums.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 25 August 2005 12:29 (9 years ago)

Oh yeah, there's a lot of Harrison's solo output that I don't really care for. All Things Must Pass, of course, has most of the good stuff, and I quite like Thirty Three & 1/3. Aside from that, his albums seem to be one or two tracks I don't mind surrounded by a lot that I don't care if I never heard again for a variety of reasons. When he gets stuck in his ponderous mode I actually find him unbearable, and that's before we get to his voice, which at its worst I find equally unbearable.

I don't think "My Sweet Lord" is any more "iconic" a Harrison song than "Something" or "Here Comes The Sun", at least in the US.

Ringo was doing a TON of stuff in the 70s, a lot of it movies, a lot of it producing other people and playing with various friends. He started off playing with John and Yoko and Klaus in a proto-krautrock art band. He made a movie with T-Rex and took the photo that is on the cover of glam masterwork "The Slider". He did all those great albums with Harry Nilsson too. His fingerprints are probably on many more classic albums and movies than all the other Beatles combined.

Harrison's solo input I still haven't explored that much. Paul's either tbh, full-album wise. I should sit down with a bunch of them and give them a try, but I think they are the kind of records that grow on you. Beatles records you instantly fell in love with. I did have a tape of George's "Extra Texture" that got a lot of replays in my car. Can't remember a single song on it but I enjoyed it a lot. It took me 20 years to recognize how amazing "Long Long Long" is, feel like George is in general a deep cuts kinda guy.

Harrison's mid seventies stuff is a horror. The guy needed a producer or co-producer. I quite like the Jeff Lynne-produced stuff – whaddya know, he got a Beatles-influenced producer and it worked.

When I read roy Carr's book 25 years ago I thought, "Harrison's stuff can't be as dreadful as Carr describes." Then I found my mom's copies of Extra Texture, Dark Horse, etc. Thirty-Three and a 1/3 is competent studio rock though, and "Blow Away" from 1979 is among his best ballads.

Holy shit, you guys took to Ringo's solo stuff far more than we ever did, it has to be said!

US is kind of lunatic abt the Beatles in a way the UK has never been.

― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Wednesday, June 17, 2015

I think there's gems in a lot of Harrison's 70s stuff (and have had this argument w Alfred before. But it's true he never pulled off another album that sounds as great and hits the highs that ATMP does. I just don't think he could really deal with being a frontman/being in charge of everything for that long, he didn't always make the best decisions. Living in the Material World is good but after that things start to get spotty, with occasional flashes of brilliance.

and man do I love "Cheer Down"

I really like 'You' and 'This Guitar (Can't Keep From Crying)' from Extra Texture, the former is a great riff with lyrics that are quite Lennon-like in their simplicity, the latter has some tasty Moog bass on it. Aside from those two tracks, the best thing about the record is the sleeve, with the eaten away Apple logo and everything.

As for Dark Horse, I suppose 'Simply Shady' could have been a great track if it wasn't marred by the god awful vocals that wreck pretty much the whole thing. The guy really should have known better than to strain his voice when he knew it wasn't up to it at that time and put off laying down the vocal tracks until after he'd recovered from laryngitis.

Ding Dong (ridiculous as it is), Dark Horse, and It Is 'He' (Jai Sri Krishna) are all good imo but yeah his voice was fucked and he should've known better than to rush out product when he could've waited til he was better

Depression permeated many of the songs that Harrison wrote during this period, an issue that was not helped by his continued heavy drinking and cocaine use

huh didn't know he ever went down to the cokehole

...and then doing a tour afterwards with his voice still fucked!

I have this theory that if he'd bothered to wait until his voice was back in shape for that record and tour, the tour would have had better reviews than it did, and Harrison probably may have ended up doing more tours. I think that whole experience wrecked his enthusiasm to tour, but the weird thing was it was kinda his own fault.

Oh yeah, both Klaus Voormann and Pattie Boyd have talked about Harrison's coke use circa Dark Horse. It surprised the hell out of me when I first heard about that, because I'd always assumed he'd given all that stuff up before The Beatles split. But the heavy drinking/coke use is kinda what 'Simply Shady' is about, really. It was around that time that Pattie Boyd left Harrison for Clapton, too.

yeah everything I'd read had seemed to indicate he'd cleaned up towards the end of the Beatles, stopped taking acid, etc.

See that footage on the documentary (part two), he looks painfully thin. Someone should have stopped him..

re "Paul is a hustler (I don't mean this in a bad way fwiw) w a pathological need for approval in a way the others weren't imo"

My flippant half-baked theory about post-Beatle Lennon and McCartney is that Paul wanted to please everyone and often failed; John wanted to please no one and often succeeded.

I still think Tug of War is a pretty good album.

And that Ray Charles Long and Winding Road redeems, ever so slightly, a song I have hated viscerally since 1986 (when it was LOOPED to be long enough for a large high school's graduation procession). Thanks for posting.

Like I said, Harrison was a great producer of other people's records and often his own, but during that coke period his weedy voice and songwriting caught up with him.

Let's not forget: "It Don't Come Easy" is his song, which he was generous enough to allow Ringo sole songwriting credit.

I don't think "My Sweet Lord" is any more "iconic" a Harrison song than "Something" or "Here Comes The Sun", at least in the US.

yeah, I totally agree. That's why I don't think that "post Beatles iconic song" idea really works. it's only "Imagine", eventually.

nah

Don't tell me, Give Ireland Back to the Irish?

My flippant half-baked theory about post-Beatle Lennon and McCartney is that Paul wanted to please everyone and often failed; John wanted to please no one and often succeeded.

Hmm. I think if Paul really wanted to please everyone, he would have made his first solo album a big budget extravaganza instead of what it actually is, and wouldn't have put out records like Wings' Wild Life. Given the amount of freedom that members of The Beatles had to put out whatever the hell they wanted, and it was more than most, then I can only assume that they all made the music that they wanted to make.

Listening to the post-Beatles solo albums, it's apparent to me that Lennon and Harrison both managed to develop their own solo sound away from The Beatles, whereas the difference between Abbey Road-era Paul and '70s McCartney isn't as drastic. It leads me to believe that in the later stages of The Beatles, that a lot of Lennon and Harrison's compositions were going through some kind of McCartney filter - or, in other words, Paul was the biggest driving force behind The Beatles, especially after they quit touring.

The big difference between the McCartney of The Beatles circa 1969 and the McCartney of the '70s is that he didn't seem to work as hard on his lyrics, really. But then, this is the guy that wrote 'She Came In Through The Bathroom Window'.

Just discovered it's his 73rd birthday today!

It leads me to believe that in the later stages of The Beatles, that a lot of Lennon and Harrison's compositions were going through some kind of McCartney filter - or, in other words, Paul was the biggest driving force behind The Beatles, especially after they quit touring.

^^ what happened, basically. He was the leader because John didn't want to be anymore.

that's pretty clear from the Let it Be film

Yup, this is essentially why I can't understand the type of Beatles fan that slags off McCartney's solo career. Abbey Road is considered one of the best things they ever did, yet it has more in common with what Paul was doing with Wings on Band On The Run and Venus and Mars than it does with Imagine or any Harrison solo record you could name. I definitely think that McCartney had a lot to do with the arrangements and production of Lennon's and Harrison's songs on Abbey Road.

I mean, god, I don't want to come out and say that Paul McCartney was The Beatles, but he definitely the dominant ingredient during their most revered period.

eh my most revered period is '65-'67

He was the dominant ingredient then, too...well, maybe not '65, but '66 and '67 definitely.

welll sorta - he provided the framing devices for Sgt Peppers and MMT but let's face it those devices are p stupid. John was writing better songs (for the most part) and still pushing the band in various directions

Yeah, I mean, McCartney contributed more, but his contributions weren't as significant as, say, "A Day in the Life".

But Lennon was veering on being a barely-there acid casualty by '67, and it seems unlikely that any of his best stuff would've been as fully realized without McCartney's chirpy cheerleading.

it seems to me like the Beatle-rot didn't really settle in w Lennon until the end of the White Album, after which his attitude seems to be m/l "fuck it"

It's acknowledged by every bio – John Lennon too – that Paul led the band from '68 onwards. John had checked out; George was miserable but the misery inspired the greatest songs he'd ever write.

Yeah, I mean, McCartney contributed more, but his contributions weren't as significant as, say, "A Day in the Life".

Which he wrote part of.

Right, yeah, maybe not the best example. He also came up with the orchestra-glissando idea to join the two songs.

Maybe "Tomorrow Never Knows" is a better example -- he played bass and one of the tape loops, but nothing more.

Paul's admitted several times that for years John was the leader, the one they were in awe of and all, as he put it, a little in love with.

john's sudden burst of creativity in late 1969/1970 -- "cold turkey," "instant karma," the POB album -- is all the more amazing because he hadn't given much of a shit about almost anything he'd played on for more than a year.

he played bass and one of the tape loops, but nothing more.

I don't know how many tape loops there are on the track, but if I'm not mistaken, he did all of them.

hmm

Five different loops were used in Tomorrow Never Knows: a seagull noise; actually a distorted recording of Paul McCartney laughing, an orchestra playing a B-flat chord, notes played on a Mellotron's flute setting, and a distorted sitar; best heard in the instrumental break following the lines 'It is being, it is being.' George Martin recalled, "We did a live mix of all the loops. All over the studios we had people spooling them onto machines with pencils while Geoff did the balancing. There were many other hands controlling the panning. It is the one track, of all the songs The Beatles did, that could never be reproduced: it would be impossible to go back now and mix exactly the same thing: the 'happening' of the tape loops, inserted as we all swung off the levers on the faders willy-nilly, was a random event."

it would be impossible to go back now and mix exactly the same thing: the 'happening' of the tape loops, inserted as we all swung off the levers on the faders willy-nilly, was a random event."

which prompts the question, who did the stereo mix, and how was it done? The timing and loops aren't identical to the mono (and supposedly first) mix, but they're fairly close. Did engineers take notes on the mono mix and do their best to recreate it for stereo? Did the Beatles do two run-throughs, one mono and one stereo?

As I understand it, Paul McCartney put the tape loops of 'Tomorrow Never Knows' together at home before the recording of 'Tomorrow Never Knows' took place, but they'll have been mixed live by The Beatles into the track, as there was no automation then.

when Ringo dies McCartney will finally be able to take credit for everything

(being facetious but I do kinda wonder sometimes about how Paul's "last Beatle standing" schtick has distorted narratives about the band)

All of this stuff was known about long before Lennon died, not sure what McCartney has said since to distort any 'official' narrative.

Depression permeated many of the songs that Harrison wrote during this period, an issue that was not helped by his continued heavy drinking and cocaine use

The main criticism I remember from the Roy Carr hatchet jobs on the Harrison solo albums, apart from the weak singing and songwriting, was the humourless preachy self-righteousness and all round sourness - I've never heard so much of a second of any of them btw!

not sure what McCartney has said since to distort any 'official' narrative.

eh he's p relentlessly self-promotional and sometimes I suspect some of it is revisionist. I mean we all know he wrote "Yesterday" by himself, trying to retroactively get his name first in the songwriting credit is just the kind of dick move you might expect of an egomaniac - also the Let it Be "Naked" thing etc.

xpost:

Well yeah, there's a lot of Harrison's solo stuff which just isn't all that fun to listen to, especially when he gets stuck in mid-tempo mode.

George is occasionally funny, tho not so much in the 70s

trying to retroactively get his name first in the songwriting credit is just the kind of dick move you might expect of an egomaniac

... not to mention buying out Denny Laine's share of "Mull of Kintyre"!

If you're going to accuse him of revisionism, you might cite a particular instance of it. What was wrong with Let It Be Naked?

I said I suspect I didn't say I could prove

it's not like I was hanging out at Beatles sessions

No, Yoko was bad enough <----- jk

glad yr here to defend Sir Paul's honor though heh

I'm reminded of something one of the Beatles said (can't remember if it was George or Ringo) about how there were various things only the four of them know the real truth about, and that they had long ago decided to keep to a consensus account rather than differ in public, and I kinda wonder how much that consensus holds (or will hold up) when only one of them is left

a not particularly revisionist example would be how much Paul has come to champion George (particularly since he passed) when for all intents and purposes it seems like George absolutely hated Paul (and for fairly understandable reasons) from like '68 through the 80s.

like to here Paul tell it now him and Lennon were in awe of George circa Abbey Road and that seems to be a rather sentimental gloss

All he's said is that "we" knew George "was peaking on those later albums" and has praised "Something" consistently over the last thirty years.

Oh, I don't know what conflict may or may not have existed or may or may not have been all that significant. I'll say this, that song on Chaos and Creation in the Backyard DOES SOUND LIKE A GEORGE HARRISON SONG. Like something from Cloud Nine or the Traveling Wilburys.

yeah and he played "Something" on the ukelele on that concert DVD that came out after George died too. I thought there were additional quotes to that effect beyond the Scorsese thing you mention.

xxp

The best indicator that the Beatles were a family is the degree to which George and Paul loved each other but neither could stand being around the other for very long. During the Anthology footage it's clear that being in the same room as Paul and coerced into a nostalgia he doesn't feel bothers the hell out of George. There's this bit when the three are sitting awkwardly on the grass reminiscing about India and it's clear George doesn't want to deal with Paul's forced good cheer.

His version of "All Things Must Pass" from that concert is awesome!

like, Paul's going "Do you remember, George, going down to the village? Remember? George?" and George is impassive behind a ukelele and Ringo looks like he'd rather be eating beans in his room.

well, Paul's a politician, and while I'm sure he was surprised at the extent to which George was mourned by musicians he wasn't going to fight it either. Plus, I suspect he genuinely wanted the challenge of playing the piano and singing the harmony on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" and participating on "All Things Must Pass."

His version of "All Things Must Pass" from that concert is awesome!

I haven't seen this in years and years, am I misremembering which song he did or did he do both?

Let It Be... Naked is arguably as "produced" as Spector's Let It Be in places. Yeah, sure, they've removed the choirs and orchestras and stuff, but the tapes were cleaned up in a way that just wouldn't have been possible in 1969/1970. There was even pitch correction and digital editing in places, so it's about as true to the "warts and all" style that the record was supposed to be as Spector's version.

Basically the project confirmed that Lennon was actually right: Spector took the tapes, which were badly recorded and had a shit feeling to them, and made something releasable out of it.

I'm sure he was surprised at the extent to which George was mourned by musicians

Ooh, I doubt that. Shakey, he did both of those songs.

However, in the Scorsese doc Paul places emphasis on the phrase "and financially" when he speculates on the reasons why George got into songwriting after "not being much interested" at the beginning. It reminds me of another pompous moment when The Police got together to drink and tell stories in '99 and Sting, the author of "We'll Be Together" and "Desert Rose," made a dig at Copeland and Summers writing songs because they saw the financial sense in it.

The best indicator that the Beatles were a family is the degree to which George and Paul loved each other but neither could stand being around the other for very long. During the Anthology footage it's clear that being in the same room as Paul and coerced into a nostalgia he doesn't feel bothers the hell out of George. There's this bit when the three are sitting awkwardly on the grass reminiscing about India and it's clear George doesn't want to deal with Paul's forced good cheer.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:28 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's that bit where they're in a room playing: Ringo on drums and George and Paul are on acoustic guitars, and Paul is like "let's do 'Blue Moon of Kentucky'" and it's so clear that George doesn't want to. But does it anyway.

lol yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpV7EdctMtI

George wanted to play "Wah Wah"

flashbacks of endless takes for "Maxwell's Silver Hammer."

I think it's a bit unfair to say that George got into songwriting for financial reasons. 'Don't Bother Me' was on the second Beatles album, which came out the same year as their first. Also, he'd written stuff prior to them getting a record deal.

that's what I'm saying -- Paul said it as if he wanted to impugn George's integrity.

he and John wrote for the art.

I don't doubt that George was jealous of John and Paul's incomes from publishing *but* he was also probably p resentful of their dismissal of his efforts to get some of his own

this is better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LdGGgOTXUA

I don't doubt that George was jealous of John and Paul's incomes from publishing *but* he was also probably p resentful of their dismissal of his efforts to get some of his own

― Οὖτις, Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:48 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I suspect that's one of the reasons why he set up his own publishing company (Harrisongs) in 1968, rather than have his tracks published through Northern Songs.

plus, I think George and Ringo still got a cut out of MacLen, right? Lennon mentioned it in one of his last interviews; Paul didn't want to but couldn't say no, according to John.

wait what how would that have worked

their publishing is so convoluted

To be honest, I don't think there could have been any decision that they could have possibly made that could have kept The Beatles together. They could have kept recording/issuing double albums to please all three songwriters, but would George really have got more space on a double album than he did on The Beatles? They could have did what Queen did eventually and credit all songs to all four members of the band, but would Lennon or McCartney have gone for that? They could have said "look, we all have X amount of space on an album and it's up to the individual songwriter what they want to fill that space with", but strangely I don't think McCartney would have gone for that. I think he enjoyed filtering Lennon and Harrison's contributions as much as he enjoyed getting his own contributions right. A situation like that would have allowed 'Cold Turkey' to go on a Beatles record, and it's well known that McCartney didn't want it to be a Beatles track.

I think the situation with The Beatles pretty much was: "John wants to do John music, George wants to do George music, Paul wants to do Paul music but would rather do Paul music with The Beatles and put the John and George music through a Paul filter. Ringo is Ringo."

Yeah, think that nails it.

I think when Lennon complained of the rest of the band being "sidemen for Paul", he basically meant that the rest of the band were getting fed up of submitting songs for The Beatles and either being told they couldn't do them, or finding that their compositions were being put through some kind of McCartney processor in order to fit around McCartney's tracks, or, they were getting to do their songs but on McCartney's terms.

However, judging by the way their solo albums sound, it was that same McCartney filter that was enabling their songs to become hits by that point.

So in one way, you could say that McCartney was being a bastard and a control freak, but on the other hand you could say that he was helping them out in a way.

Of course. That's how we got Abbey Road.

Yup, and that's what's so great about Abbey Road and people don't realise it. It has all the mainstream appeal of a Wings album like Band On The Run, but a consistency to it that comes from all the songwriters being involved. But it's easy to see why John and George couldn't go on working like that, as tempting as it is to think about how 'Maybe I'm Amazed' would have sounded nestling alongside 'Instant Karma' and 'What Is Life', with the same production values as Abbey Road has.

John had a habit of getting excited about some idea, then when he's gone off it deciding it was Paul's idea in the first place.

But it's easy to see why John and George couldn't go on working like that, as tempting as it is to think about how 'Maybe I'm Amazed' would have sounded nestling alongside 'Instant Karma' and 'What Is Life', with the same production values as Abbey Road has.

Richard Linklater had the same thought.

There's been quite a few attempts at putting the solo tracks into a 'Beatles' subsequent album.

Not seen one that actually works though.

Paul wants to do Paul music but would rather do Paul music with The Beatles and put the John and George music through a Paul filter.

What is this filter apart from great bass parts and backing vocals.

Like he shouldn't have to apologize for wanting to play the others' songs.

I doubt Paul would be cool with putting his songs through the John or George filter (altho tbh they probably couldn't maintain the required interest in his shittier material)

Again, what do any of these filters involve apart from playing your instrument and singing?

being told exactly how to play your instrument and sing, presumably (which Paul quite clearly did)

You're talking about "I've Got a Feeling?"

I mean, the songwriter's decision about the lead guitar idea he didn't like for "Hey Jude" strikes me as the kind of thing that goes on in bands all the time.

I'm sure that's not the only instance but yeah that was the first one that sprang to mind

xp

His version of "All Things Must Pass" from that concert is awesome!

― timellison, Thursday, June 18, 2015 5:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

There's been quite a few attempts at putting the solo tracks into a 'Beatles' subsequent album.

Not seen one that actually works though.

― Mark G, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:27 PM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Indeed. The differences in production values, for one. The fact that John and George developed very distinct solo identities, for another.

Again, what do any of these filters involve apart from playing your instrument and singing?

― timellison, Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:38 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Playing your instrument, singing, production, arrangement.

I mean, listen to their solo albums and it speaks for itself. I'd bet that Paul had a much bigger hand in the arrangements of John and George's tracks than they ever did on his.

Mmm, very speculative. There was also George Martin.

Will you guys please look at this?

https://www.facebook.com/georgeharrison/photos/a.215228111344.138122.20929721344/10152858923651345/?type=1&theater

George TOOK A PICTURE OF PAUL.

Did he introduce it by saying, "Here's one we thought wasn't good enough for the Beatles to record" ?

Err, ahh, ahh...is this documented? Never heard this one. They were playing it during Let It Be sessions, I know. "We" = John and Paul or who?

Oh yeah, and song selection too... Paul quick to dismiss 'Cold Turkey' and several Harrison songs, yet Lennon and Harrison fucking loathe 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer' and it still manages to get onto an album?

And speaking of the Scorsese doc, Paul reveals that George came up with the main guitar figure in "And I Love Her." He even said of the figure, "THAT'S the song!" Apparently not enough to warrant a co-writing credit.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat

It isn't. If so, Al Kooper would've had one on "Like a Rolling Stone."

I'm growing weary of fighting but which George songs quick to dismiss?

that's what a guitarist is supposed to do -- come up with riffs. To solve this problem, you can do what REM-U2 have done and credit everybody.

"Not Guilty?" It's a good thing the Beatles didn't release "All Things Must Pass" on Let It Be!

credit everybody.

Exactly.

Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were.

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

If you're going to hold that credits should follow a distinctive or signature riff, but not normal or obvious or stock parts, it seems to me that this is a slippery slope and a potentially endless topic.

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"? If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

Is Ringo a cowriter of the Beatles' recording of "Roll Over Beethoven"? I don't think anybody told him what fills to play at which points, so presumably he composed his own parts.

re: "Jagger/Richards are without a doubt more stingy at giving out credits than Lennon/McCartney ever were." Ask Richard Ashcroft!

Or Bill Wyman, or Mick Taylor...

Believe Anthony Jackson got a writing credit for his bass part on "For The Love Of Money," but that was a notable exception.

Guys, I have to commend you on finding new nuanced and interesting things to say about the Beatles at this late stage in yhe history of ILX.

Oh yeah, and tim much love to you too, never change.

Sorry, I do you like your contributions, and wish I knew the emoticon to use in this situation.

back at you brother!

If George should have ben credited as a co-writer of "And I Love Her," then perhaps Ringo should be a co-writer of "The End."

Of course. Why not? Did someone else write/play that solo?

Did Steve Gadd cowrite "Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover"?

I think the question is, did Paul Simon write Steve Gadd's part? If Gadd wrote it, then sure, Gadd should get co-credit.

If yes, then every session person who ever played something awesome should be credited. If no, then to what extent has any drummer ever written anything?

I'm all in favor of all musicians being credited with co-writing. Why not? Just because it's inconvenient? The way "writing" "credit" (and subsequent copyright) is determined is still stuck in the Tin Pan Alley/sheet music era. The recording is the composition, not the inaudible piece of paper with calligraphy on it.

One example (maybe an extreme one) that I always come back to: why are only Rodgers and Hammerstein credited with "My Favorite Things" on the hour-long version on John Coltrane's Live in Japan? They didn't compose any of the solos, nor did they have any hand in the arrangement.

The recording is the composition

Yes but so are the sequencing of events, the chord progression, and the lyrics.

credit the listener imo

it's difficult work

well George came up with the "I look at all the lonely people" part in "Eleonore Rigby" and didn't get a songwriting credit... so a guitar lick...

Other people came up with all sorts of additions/suggestions to Beatle songs.

It's possible that some of them got a little bonus for it, without getting a credit as such.

The occasional line, word, whatever. Did Ringo get one for "Badge" I wonder?

Ringo also came up with the "darning his socks" bit in "Eleanor Rigby.

Recent remarks on George's songwriting, on publishing, starting at 36:04.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owP_32EIoXE

I'm interested in the "What is songwriting?" topic but this may not be the place for it. Not sure I can go as far as Tarfumes T.E.G. - though I greatly respect the inherit ethics in this view. Certainly, Coltrane et al. are composing their solos over the bones of the R&H song. No one who cares about Coltrane would understand it any other way.

I do fear it leads to a reductio ad absurdification stance, whereby a hired percussionist who hits a triangle on 16th notes instead of 8th notes for one and a half measures is as much a composer as Mozart. Or somebody who walks by the studio and says, "You know what this needs? Cowbell." Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak. It would be silly to refuse to play anything until the songwriter had "written" that I should play the kick on 1, 2, 3, and 4, snare on 2 and 4, eighth notes on the hat, etc. Of course I'd appreciate credit for an innovative/unique part. But then it becomes subjective as to what level of complexity constitutes composition.

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

not sure if it's said already but i was led to believe songwriting credits go to the person who writes the lyrics and the topline melody. so even if you come up with an iconic beat or bassline, you won't get credit for it in regular circumstances.

They go to whoever, basically.

There's a Fad Gadget song that has a "Robert Gotobed" credit as a thanks for the work he did, drummingwise, on the whole album.

Also, "Land of 1000 dances" has Fats Domino on the credits even when the song is only being sampled for the "Nah nanana nah" bit which wasn't on the original. And he was only added to make him record it.

Or a person who makes a slight editorial suggestion like, "Hey John, perhaps you should consider 'it's easy if you try' instead of 'it's easy if you attempt it' here."

Ha, supposedly Lennon's only contribution to "Hey Jude" was telling Paul to leave in the line "the movement you need is on your shoulder" (Paul wanted to rewrite it).

At the same time, if person A writes a reasonably complete song - chords, lyrics, melody, riff, key, feel, tempo, instrumentation - and then the band's bassist chooses to play 1, 5, 1, 5 (instead of 1, 1, 1, 1) for a few measures, I'm not quite ready to say that constitutes composing on the same level as doing the creative and emotional labor of coming up with the foundational ideas in the first place.

Yeah, it's like, the organ part of "Whiter Shade of Pale" defines the song as much as the lyrics and topline melody. There's a reason the organist sued for credit while, say, the bassist didn't:

On 30 July 2009 the Law Lords unanimously ruled in Fisher's favour. They noted that the delay in bringing the case had not caused any harm to the other party; on the contrary they had benefited financially from it. They also pointed out that there were no time limits to copyright claims under English law. The right to future royalties was therefore returned to Fisher.[38][39] The musicological basis of the judgment, and its effect on the rights of musicians who contribute composition to future works, has drawn some attention in the music world. It has shown that someone who composes a "signature" part for an otherwise complete song could indeed be credited as a co-writer.[40]

yeah there are no rules. jagger/richards could have credited jones, wyman, taylor, etc.
they just decided no to.

errr... the melody of the organ part of "whiter shades of pale" is by JS Bach !

(well inspired by...)

Jagger/Richards should have credited Wyman on 'Jumpin' Jack Flash', I think.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.

one of the examples of the subjective aspect of the songwriting credits is the aforementioned "Give Peace a Chance" which was credited lennon/mccartney although the latter had nothing to do with it.

the (bowel) movement you need is on your shoulder

are you expecting a songwriting credit ?

<<I'm a drummer myself, and wouldn't naturally expect praise or credit or extra payment for standard patterns that are off-the-shelf, so to speak.>>

not sure why you deserve any less (or more) credit than the guitarist who comes up with off-the-shelf I-IV-V chord changes.

<I think that financial aspects put aside, the jagger/richards, lennon/mccartney just thought it was cooler if all the tracks had this signature even when someone else had an input or when the song was solely by one of them.>>

i'm sure jagger, richards, lennon and mccartney all thought it was cool indeed. taylor, wyman, harrison, etc., might not feel the same way, obviously. songwriting credits in pop music are ENTIRELY a financial decision.

fcc otm

As I say,the credit on the song does not necessarily relate to who gets paid what.

Jagger-Richards not crediting Taylor for "Sway" or "Moonlight Mile" is rank bullshit.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, June 19, 2015 2:58 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and 'Time Waits For No One', too.

I learned a piano chord I didn't know before from TLAWR, so it gets pass marks from me.
― The Manner of Crawly (Tom D.), Wednesday, June 17, 2015 7:50 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink