Are you cool with forks making Spotify playlists out of every rolling thread without permission?

what why

this should be fun.

i'm cool with it, interested in why one might not be tho

I love them and find them a hugely useful aid, so I'm a 'yes' here.

Permission from whom? If recommendations are proprietary, why would they be posted on a public message board like this?

Why does it make you uncomfortable? He doesn't use your name or any content of posting aside from artists and song titles to make something that everyone can access and listen to if they're interested in the genre. As far as I'm aware there's no possibility of public trackback to you or any possibility of bringing ~outsiders~ to your thread. Am I wrong about that? And if the playlists are publicly accessible (not sure about spotify's public/private statuses or the searchability of playlists as I don't use it), would it be better for you if forks removed 'ilx' from the titles? Tbh I haven't clocked if ilx is even in the names of the playlists but I assume so.

i'd prefer that he emailed me flacs

it did strike me as a little weird insofar as it ports ilx stuff out into the wider world - not that stuff here isn't findable, but it's in its own arena. I'm not really on those threads much except for the metal one and I don't really care that much, but it did seem to me like the sort of thing a person might say "I had this idea, everybody cool with that?" before doing it.

People need permission to make playlists?

what a disaster for rolling threads

oh noes -the music might be heard by someone, legally.
of course it's fine. those playlists are indispensable.

but honestly when I look at his original thread and all those ppl I like goin "fuckin' awesome! thank you!" then I think I don't give a shit about any "kinda weird" feeling I might have, it's making a bunch of people I like really happy so I'm for it

by the way, if anyone wants to see the terrible terrible thing I'm doing, stop by as all are welcome:
Listening to ILX Listen: 2016

I hate Spotify, I hate the Spotify playlists (and fwiw I generally dislike the rolling threads). I'm voting 'no.'

I feel excluded from the threads that have Spotify playlists because of my opposition to streaming services that rip off artists, and I certainly don't like the idea of checking my conscience at the door and becoming part of what I see is the problem just to participate in a thread. Sorry if that sounds sanctimonious, it's just how I feel about it.

That said, I predict a landslide for the pro-Spotify people, and may not even check back in with this thread because there's no shortage of more important things to get bummed out about in an election year.

for some context as to the history of this grade c beef

spotify blows, will spend 2016 giving money to artists i care about
― trigger warning: your mom (mattresslessness), Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:27 PM

in exchange for something that won't disappear overnight in a merger.
― trigger warning: your mom (mattresslessness), Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:30 PM

i'm gonna do both but i'm crazy like that
― lute bro (brimstead), Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:33 PM

me too! also as noted above:
Spotify is hardly the be-all-end-all of music indices ... but it has the added benefit of being very easy to search and manage, free and/or cheap, available in multiple countries and it just happens to be the service I lean on for at least 75% of my listening. It is also a service that makes subscription to playlists (and auto-updating/downloading tracks to a mobile playlist) easy. I'm under no illusions that Spotify may well not exist in five years but something similar will almost certainly fill the vacuum.
― ulysses, Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:44 PM

oh and hey, it's forks. I got tired of having eight gazillion thread bookmarks so in honor of primarily holing up in this little corner of ILX and to slim down and focus on just listening, I'm trying on a new login. The reference, if it's not obvious, is to the arduousness of the quest ahead as we ride into the Sirens' path.
― ulysses, Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:47 PM

have fun in your video game
― trigger warning: your mom (mattresslessness), Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:49 PM

interesting to me that in making an attempt to be less engaged on ilx, i am now the subject of a poll! probably my own fault somehow.

anyway, more recently from one of our many rolling genre threads, the following straw that broke a fragile camel's back:

Don't wanna reopen a can of worms here but I really wish we could leave Spotify out of this. 95% of the artists (and labels) here are exactly the sort than need all the help they can get, and while I realize most of us are the type who 'audition' albums on Youtube, Spotify, etc and then do our best to support the artist either by purchasing records or attending shows, I still feel a Spotify playlist sets a really bad example.
― Jimmywine Dyspeptic, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 11:34 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the larger economic and ethical consumer questions of music streaming are very personal, so i respect your opinion. if it's not something you want to interact with, that's cool, no one's forcing you.
― ulysses, Thursday, February 4, 2016 12:33 AM

fuck you dude! how about showing you respect that opinion instead of paying lip service to it and doing what you want anyway.
― bicyclescope (mattresslessness), Thursday, February 4, 2016 12:38 AM

... then, ten minutes later, this thread.

Spotify is hardly the be-all-end-all of music indices ... but it has the added benefit of being very easy to search and manage, free and/or cheap, available in multiple countries and it just happens to be the service I lean on for at least 75% of my listening. It is also a service that makes subscription to playlists (and auto-updating/downloading tracks to a mobile playlist) easy. I'm under no illusions that Spotify may well not exist in five years but something similar will almost certainly fill the vacuum.
― ulysses, Thursday, January 21, 2016 9:44 PM

I think this entire argument is unfortunately indicative of a much larger problem: in weighing the pros and cons, you don't once consider the 'content creators' and Spotify's effect on their livelihood (or, if you don't give a shit about their ability to clothe, feed themselves, their ability to continue creating the art you enjoy enough to get "free and/or cheap.").

you should just take all the songs, mix them, upload them to soundcloud and post them on DJs post your mixes for download instead

i mean... the rolling threads are basically wall-to-wall youtube embeds right? like people have already provided a one-stop shop for listening to the music they recommend... i'm not sure i get why that same lineup being transposed to some other format is suddenly weird and makes you not want to post things. is it that it divorces the songs from who picked them and makes the whole thing more anonymous/less visibly a collective effort? i don't really hang out on rolling threads tbh but i gather that those who do kinda "know" each other's tastes, "oh man, that is such a 'lex' song" or whatever... and i could see where making it easy to get the music but not the people/conversation might rub someone the wrong way...?

so... given the youtube thing - --- while i would believe that spotify is more problematic or evil than youtube, it's not like without the forks playlists, the music would only be heard in some kind of unmediated free-love manner. also all those embeds tend to make it impossible to load the threads or conveniently listen to the music IME. like you really have to perch at the computer, daintily click play on a single youtube embed, sit there and listen to it and consider your response (or if you liked the song, painstakingly save it to your itunes wishlist [is that a thing?] or more likely, your own spotify playlist) before scrolling down to click play on the next single youtube embed.... seems like just getting them into your regular listening regime makes a fuck of a lot more sense. also for those who make EOY ballots or just generally want to stay current with things, seems like a massive massive resource. i'm kind of a curmudgeon and generally just wait for the EOY results to catch up on what i should have been adding to my playlists all year but maybe this will change.

typed most of that before forks's explanatory post. hrm. i guess it makes a LITTLE more sense to me now. like i don't want to dismiss people having misgivings or ambivalent feelings even though the wording of some of their reactions is kinda offputting to me. hmm.

I'm against it, fuck Spotify and fuck sending them business

ah, february, the month of internet arguing

I mean the cheap counterargument is, those artists should not be on Spotify then! - - - but obviously it is not at all that simple. Still, it kinda feels like telling everyone else on ILM who uses Spotify at all (the ones listening to forks's playlists or not) that they're bad for using it. Which I would accept as your opinion, but maybe I don't get why forks's rolling thread playlists are inherently worse than there being playlists for the EOY poll results, or other ballot polls, or like, or playlists people make of their individual ballots for things, or really any playlists ILMers share here, all of which have been going on for a number of years at this point. They would all involve the same kind of thing, right? And if you do believe that ILMers are particularly inclined to buy music after streaming it, then at least some of that exposure is turning into sales for those artists (though even as I type that I recognize all kinds of potential holes there).

I also think it's creepy that we have our own Spotify sales rep now, dude should be banned

Huh? Do you mean Glenn?

This is a perfectly reasonable objection to have, ppl need to not take things so personally (says a person who takes things too personally)

xxp yah fuck that

oh my god i've spent the last ten years of my life on a forum full of wackos

JWD, as you're not coming off as, let's say, dyspeptic as mattress, I'm happy to talk this through a bit more with you if you'd like.

As I understand it, your concern is that taking part in a thread where one of the people who read the thread is publically cataloguing music recommendations (admittedly, using a service that you find ethically questionable) is tantamount to condoning the service in question? That POV is confusing to me.

I have no ownership, vested interest or control over how ILX or Spotify works outside of the fact that I use both as communication, entertainment and learning tools. I'm a private, unpaid individual putting these playlists together using resources that are freely available online. They're first and foremost for my own listening usage but it seemed a waste to put so much obsessive effort into something that would likely be useful and helpful to a larger number of people, so organizing them into a codex seemed like a more reasonable (if completely cockamamie) way to focus my energy. Again, Spotify is not "sponsoring" the thread... or me! If YouTube had better portability, I'd prefer to use that service instead tbh; they have a much more comprehensive catalogue as it's user-generated.

Just to play devil's advocate though: are you okay with posting on a thread where people post YouTube videos? Do you think that the shoddy payrate-per-view to the artist provided by Alphabet is not comparable to Spotify's pay model?

Feel weird about posting pix all over ILX that are hosted by Imgur, since that's the same site all the Reddit weirdos use.

Yes I mean dedicated Spotify employee Glenn MacDonald. Can't imagine pal here would be cool with any other company having a rep shilling users.

Ppl

Glenn has been posting to ILM since before I have though! Like at least a decade. I can see why people get frustrated with the line he toes on the Spotify thread specifically but banning him from the whole rest of the site seems idk, excessive?

meanwhile Οὖτις has been posting here for less than a year (unless s/he changed display names)

permission? From who exactly?

Oh, okay, it's just about moral objections to spotify. Part of the reason why I don't use it is b/c I do prefer to give my money direct via bandcamps/purchases at shows, but yeah, sorry, having a moral objection to a platform that so many people use isn't anywhere near enough to warrant a policy banning forks from creating his playlists.

I also have a feeling that this thread was started in order to create a clusterfuck, which will no doubt happen.

We got one guy who wants a clusterfuck and a few people who have their own concerns and axes to grind. It seems clusterfuck avoidable.

you don't once consider the 'content creators' and Spotify's effect on their livelihood (or, if you don't give a shit about their ability to clothe, feed themselves, their ability to continue creating the art you enjoy enough to get "free and/or cheap.").
― Jimmywine Dyspeptic, Thursday, February 4, 2016

as it happens, i work in the live performance industry and am acutely aware of the economics involved in being a professional musician or anyone who works tangential to that world. I've also been discussing artist rights issues vs. listener rights issues for at least the past fourteen years.... often on ILX!

I have my misgivings about spotify's financial model but the biggest culprits are almost certainly the major labels who allowed spotify into the ring only if they colluded in perpetuating an outdated business model to keep a dying industry afloat for another decade or two. Here's the thing though: I've come to terms with using spotify for my own personal use and that's my call. You clearly have not and that's your call. But there is a difference between not eating meat and telling other people who are at the party that they shouldn't eat meat. I'm totally okay with this not being something you want to use and (as brimstead said while I was posting this) it's a perfectly reasonable objection to have. I would maybe question why you feel the need to leave the party because I'm having a hamburger but it's fair for you to do so!

Οὖτις is a very well-established poster under a new alias, fwiw.

(that's to maura if that wasn't clear)

glenn has been posting here I think before _I_ got here. he's fairly integral to the board and he's somebody who has also wasted numberless hours arranging our collective dumb thoughts into spreadsheets. It seems a dick move to negatively name check him here for no particular reason.

Not even that new, it's been like 1.5 years.

xp My opposition is to the larger boogieman of Spotify itself, not to its application to / on ILX*. Your own explanation is reasonable and I don't take any more issue with it than I do with my otherwise progressive, farmer's market-shopping friend who likes to eat at McDonalds once in a while.

(* I tend to think, perhaps romantically, that the record nerds and deep diggers of ILX would have many of the same issues with Spotify that I do: that it not only hurts artists ((which is too big an argument for this thread and one I wouldn't mind agreeing to disagree about for now)) but also compromises the listening experience, making the very act of listening superficial and cheap. It's just not a way I interface with music. I realize this is just my own experience, and I'm certainly not trying to speak for anyone else.

I'm not wild about Youtube, either, but the Youtube links seem to come in song-sized embeds, and don't offer the entire discography of an artist at the click of a mouse.

The reason I specifically objected in the post-Takoma thread is that that thread in particular is full of people who are being directly affected by streaming; not a lot of Kanyes or Adeles being discussed in that thread. And I can see certain of those people--label owners, artists, etc--taking exception to it.

you guys do whatever the hell you want but calling out glenn is really fucked up

xp Ha, weird that we used the same meat-eating analogy - I replied before I saw your last post!

can't believe glenn got banned

glenn banzig

http://www.big-t-shirts.com/ProdImages/big/who-gives-a-shit.jpg_1244.jpg

I've never seen Glenn on anything but the Spotify thread, if I've missed something I apologize. Still find that thread gross though.

I've been here since 2001 fwiw.

xp lol, was waiting for it and i got it

if your perspective of the issue is "romantic", by which i take you to mean idealistically principled, what does it matter if it's Adele or the indiest boy in indy folk who is losing some unspecifiable percentage of a penny because someone chose to listen on one service over another?

here is one of many cool things glenn done did:
Mapping All Music

Misgivings about Spotify/YouTube/life aside, everything forks is saying is perfectly reasonable. What's not reasonable is keeping a clusterfuck/witch-hunt poll like this open for three weeks.

I've never seen Glenn on anything but the Spotify thread, if I've missed something I apologize. Still find that thread gross though.

I've been here since 2001 fwiw.

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:10 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he's a regular in the metal thread and has been forever

Doesn't Glenn tabulate Pazz & Jop these days, fwiw?

Misgivings about Spotify/YouTube/life aside, everything forks is saying is perfectly reasonable. What's not reasonable is keeping a clusterfuck/witch-hunt poll like this open for three weeks.

― dc, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:12 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^^^

Glenn's willingness to honestly engage with folks on the spotify thread and his selflessness in transparency of posting there (under his real name yet!) is imo genuinely laudable and provides insight not available elsewhere. You would rather he didn't respond to issues that he actually has the wherewithal to talk about?

i am fighting the urge to start an answer poll of "Are you cool with Mattress starting a clusterfuck thread than ends in three weeks?" and then ending that poll in three weeks.

Just because I got curious and did the searching, Glenn's first ILM post is from Mar. 9, 2001 and his web presence is linked in the rec.music.reviews FAQ from 1996. He is as old-school of an internet music nerd as anybody here, and the strength of this site IMHO is that it still maintains a critical mass of those kind of people (old and new), generous in their musings and their list-making. I think people are allowed to stay on ILM even when their current job is for a company a lot of people don't like. Even when I've disagreed with him on the Spotify thread specifically it's kinda like, I mean, he doesn't have to post anything there. While it seems reasonable to assume there are things he can't say there for reasons of employment (not exactly a unique position among ILXors), I seeeeeeeriously doubt his Spotify overlords are cracking the whip to make sure a couple dozen people on the nerdiest of all message boards hear out their side of the story.

Huh. Live and learn

Can I fp myself?

no but as penance you must start a three-week poll about whether you should be banned from the internet for life, and only glenn can vote

Sounds fair

you should just take all the songs, mix them, upload them to soundcloud and post them on DJs post your mixes for download instead

― mookieproof, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 6:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just in case mookieproof wasn't clear enough, i'm a dj, i post my mixes to soundcloud, and then post the link to the mixes on that thread, where it's available to stream and/or download. soundcloud is a convenient hosting option for this but i'm happy to share my work in other ways.

forks, what bothers me about your project is how exclusive spotify is to it. good metadata is valuable, and you're harvesting it for one organization. do they in turn have an open metadata policy? how exportable are their playlists?

would you be open to modifying your project somewhat to include links to bandcamp, discogs, artist websites, youtube? maybe in a platform-neutral format? or is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization? because that's sure what it looks like.

... to me, and the reason my tone about all of this has been so dickish, for which i apologize.

the hell? is there something i don't know about forks that would make his/her super involved spare-time project look suspicious in this way to you? fwiw, imho, antagonizing someone and then suggest they do five to six times as much more work for you is maybe not as good a look as offering to help with that, or something. you raise some interesting points that could be interesting fodder for constructive criticism re: metadata and the value for spotify - - --- although let's be honest is spotify really going to see their profit margin leap because of these playlists? moreso than anybody else's, or carly rae jepsen's? or is it your concern that they will turn around and basically rip these off to create a marketable, hypeable product, "check out our new curated playlists, What's Next In Fruity Swag Goon Music 2016 - EDITOR'S PICKS!!!" ...? ----- but the interesting conversation side of it is kind of foreclosed if you're impugning the motives/character of the poster in question.

forks has discussed his/her method and choices a bit, see posts starting at this permalink Listening to ILX Listen - 2015 Spotify Genre Playlists ; i believe that (s)he is sincere. if it looks like a classic internet music lover list-making project, and sounds like a classic internet music lover list-making project...

I'm pretty sure what forks is doing is more benevolent and nerdy and ocd than shilling for spotify or whatever. If you wanna trash spotify, fine, but don't trash forks.

#notallplaylists

"check out our new curated playlists, What's Next In Fruity Swag Goon Music 2016 - EDITOR'S PICKS!!!" ...?

They do do this fwiw. See my last post on the Spotify thread re: stealing my friends' online radio station playlists.

ps i miss forks' scare quotes (not scare quotes) comedy title edits

I'm cool with enthusiasm.

i don't use spotify and i don't mind forks making playlists, but i would be bummed if mattress stopped posting on bobbins threads

If you wanna trash spotify, fine, but don't trash forks.

Just for the record, that is exactly what I've been doing. I don't know forks but I enjoy his posts and will concede that he's made some good points / offered some food for thought wrt Spotify and its place here on ILX

is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization? because that's sure what it looks like.

This literally has never ever crossed my mind as being a thing that forks' project could possibly look like. What it looks like is a music dork obsessively compiling lists, and then being nice and sharing them with people.

or is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization? because that's sure what it looks like.

I know that you specified "...to me" afterwards, but I want to foreground it, because I've worked in the music business for 20 years and I cannot imagine viewing forks's project in this light, nor can I imagine anyone I know coming to any comparable conclusion

Incredibly stupid thread. Fuck off. The playlists are cool. Private message each other. Christ.

Lol "experts"

i'm all for enthusiasm and big projects too. but when that gets used as a tactic to shut down legitimate concerns.. i have to admit that's a pet peeve of mine. since this is such a selfless project, i imagine forks will take into account the preferences of the many artists mentioned in these threads who don't like spotify and who make money from other avenues and include some equivalent way of showing support for these artists in his list-making enthusiasm.

xp to emil.y and joan, fair enough.

Mod Request: please move this thread to Ask Dr. Freud.

Incredibly stupid thread. Fuck off. The playlists are cool. Private message each other. Christ.

lol this is one of his better ones

the rolling threads should be paywalled with proceeds going to the experts, who may or may not choose to share with the artists extolled therein

god you're a fucking lowlife, go back to bed

Okay, just expunged some of the weird mojo of this thread by following some of forks other playlists, in particular Meet Elmo Hope.

this is an open community with experts in it (i never claimed to be one of them ffs). i'd hate to see it linked to one company out of hand. i care about the bobbins thread and i want more exposure for those artists (i'm under no illusion that some doofus on a message board has an appreciable amount of influence, but why not be enthusiastic about it and do it in a way you think will benefit someone the most?). i wouldn't mind doing a list for just bobbins with links to youtube, discogs, bandcamp, etc. it would probably make more sense anyway because a fair amount of those people release on vinyl only. if forks wants to talk about it more, he can shout at me off this, struggin @ gmail.

i voted no bc the project seems a little compulsive and forks has discussed it using those v words and maybe it would be liberating to be freed from the self-imposed obligation w/ a majority of 'no' votes

xp i could also put in links to whatever spotify playlist forks wants to make so it's not like a turf thing, just equal opportunity consumption. that's really my issue i guess, artists or listeners who choose not to use spotify are left out. there's the chance to do something that supplements this project (and i'm realizing it isn't neccessarily forks' responsibility to do it). i started this off in a counterproductive way as per usual, hope i can still talk to forks about doing an alternative with the bobbins thread.

we should go back to just downloading mp3s on napster and talking about those

god you're a fucking lowlife, go back to bed

start a poll just to be sure

Haha, what the fuck is this thread for? Seriously this "issue" needs a thread? Forks, I'm fucking honored that you've included my 2016 Indie thread to your playlist. I have no idea of the internal ILM politics of this endeavor. And frankly, I could give two fucks what those politics are. Seriously, please add whatever contributions are given in that thread.

Lol thomp otm

wait hold the presses an indie fan doesn't care about politics

100% added value to each thread when there is an associated playlist.

i am cool with forks making Spotify playlists out of every rolling thread without permission

start a poll just to be sure

only if forks will make a spotify playlist for it. can put all of New Order's Low Life and "Low Life" by the Police, maybe "Speed of Life" off Low...dunno man just spitballin here. I'm just the ideas guy. don't worry I will post Soundcloud links where applicable.

hey so this is a p silly clusterfuck huh

pottery

http://i.imgur.com/KHPIjHf.gif

Make my forks the p-forks

we should go back to just downloading mp3s on napster and talking about those

― carly rae jetson (thomp), Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:35 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Gotta get back to the base.

if forks wants to talk about it more, he can shout at me off this, struggin @ gmail

how exportable are their playlists?

would you be open to modifying your project somewhat to include links to bandcamp, discogs, artist websites, youtube? maybe in a platform-neutral format?

I am dead positive that you don't have the slightest idea how much time and effort it takes to read every goddamn post in every goddamn thread and look up every goddamn song and then catalogue every goddamn song and then check back again to see if a new song has been added to the service a month later. And just so I'm entirely clear: your beef is not based on some sort of principled concern but simply that you aren't pleased with the way I am managing a massive, personally motivated and unpaid project? That not only is the soup terrible, but in such small portions? Because seriously, you don't have to give a shit if I do this. That's fine. But you wanna tell me the dance I'm doing that I just made up by myself is wrong?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/a77b23ae0d11eb0a06b7b612f1c26622/tumblr_n02ttfbgEv1t13eyho1_400.gif

is this really about you riding on a community of experts to put yourself in a good light with a certain organization?

As to why I'm using Spotify exclusively, I've answered THAT multiple times (including about ten posts up), but here we go again: it has about an 85% hit ratio; it's a service i personally use (and pay for! in addition to buying music and concert tickets and merch elsewhere!); it's reliable and easy to take on a portable device; it has a less-than-totally janky search engine and a small footprint on my mac (NB: I backtracked to .8.5 and find it prone to crashing but otherwise preferable to the social network bloat it otherwise packs in its current state); it's available internationally so out-of-America ILXors have access; and, crucially, it is available for free on the internet, meaning that it is egalitarian and not class-restricted for the listener! If you can access ILX, you can access spotify and they cost the same! The counterintuitive presumption that I am deep cover astroturfing, even after i have REPEATEDLY avowed that I have no affiliation with the company, is so wrong headed as to be genuinely funny.

my tone about all of this has been so dickish, for which i apologize

i imagine forks will take into account the preferences of the many artists mentioned in these threads who don't like spotify and who make money from other avenues and include some equivalent way of showing support for these artists in his list-making enthusiasm.

i wouldn't mind doing a list for just bobbins with links to youtube, discogs, bandcamp, etc.

http://cdn1.theodysseyonline.com/files/2015/10/15/635805362411119546-1401372307_tumblr_nr7zqaDQjg1roohd8o1_400.gif

I will subscribe and listen! I wish people would grassroots this shit and fill in the blanks and make my project obsolete! It would make me SO HAPPY! But hey, little something for you to think about: when you do finally get around to making that bobbins list, take a moment to think about how it would feel to make that same list... twenty-seven more times. Then update all those lists nonstop for a year. Then, just as you start your second year on this mad sisyphean task, imagine some rando, holier-than-thou motherfucker leans in and starts screaming FUCK YOU SOUNDCLOUD IS MURDER ARTISTS RIGHTS as the first step toward voicing their opinion, then follows that up with a poll asking who gave you permission to do the thing you felt like doing in the first place, then accuses you of being a double agent for The Orchard. Once you've worked through that particular thought exercise, I believe you might understand why I find you, your argument and this thread utterly fucking absurd.

Mordy OTM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZeYDBY4fw

ILM's Rolling 'Are you cool with forks making Spotify playlists out of every rolling thread without permission?' 2016 Spotify Playlist

Let me go on record as saying that James Redd is cool with forksclovetofu and is slightly disappointed that he has yet to cross paths with him at some musical event in NYC. As far as the rolling playlists, I briefly looked at a few related to threads I participated on and found it a really interesting and useful exercise to try to pair up the tunes with the posts and think about how much I forgot or misread.

I'm going to this tomorrow if you wanna come out JR:
http://www.residentadvisor.net/event.aspx?799857

And KING at LPR Friday!

forks can you please make a separate playlist for each David Bowie guitarist. thanking you in advance.

oh shit, i wanna see KING!

also forks your most recent playlist, linked just above, is some of your best work.

ILM's Rolling David Bowie's Guitarists 2016 Spotify Playlist

xavier mcdaniel.

I'm going to this tomorrow if you wanna come out JR:
http://www.residentadvisor.net/event.aspx?799857🔗

And KING at LPR Friday!

Oh hey, I just realized what this thread might be good for: I've been transferring old audio tapes to spotify. My father (who's a rare record dealer and an ethnomusicologist) made most of these for me when I was a kid. They're important mixes and the sequencing has defined the way I understand the music. That "Elmo Hope" playlist referenced up there is one of those. But the blues and funk and jazz mixes are SO important to me because I was like this as a kid too, so I listened to those C90s front to back a gazillion times and they are burned into my brain forever. I should maybe post links here.

Blues 1
Blues 2
Blues 3
Blues 4

hey matt prick what is your (long standing) problem?

― Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker

thought "Blues 4" playlist would have 50 Eve 6's "Here's to the Night"s

lol, no those are legit.

So denied so I lied, are you the now or never kind?
In a day and a day love I'm gonna be gone for good again
Are you willing to be had? Are you cool with forks tonight?
Here's a toast to all those who hear me all too well

the neat thing about getting your old dubbed tapes into digital format playlists is that you can relive pivotal moments.

like 'Dewey Square' was the first time i consciously remember hearing bird
Charlie Parker

and 'Pee Pee Cluck Cluck' was my first time hearing Toots
Ska and Reggae 1

or all these mixes that my sister mailed to me when she was at school in Memphis and i was working at a library in Murfreesboro killing time in the stacks with my walkman on, wondering what the fuck my life was gonna be, just about to drop out and get a job at the local salvation army. i wish we were closer now but man does this sequencing evoke a fragile time for me.

Jole's Playlist 1
Jole's Playlist 2
Jole's Playlist 3

Or this sterling playlist of Percy Mayfield, Charles Brown, King Pleasure, Eddie Jefferson and Peppermint Harris, which I guarantee you cannot find a bad track on. I've tried!

More Vocal Jazz

uh wow this thread

i for one am completely psyched when forks makes playlists out of the emo thread, it is a delight

if you would like a platform neutral format to check out the songs mentioned in the rolling threads, might i suggest......,,...the rolling threads

also forks see u at king friday

I refused to use Spotify for years because I felt it was part of a general movement against people owning music - my MP3s may not be physical artifacts, but often they are a different version to the one on Spotify, or I edited them, and I'm easily able to make mixes with them. Spotify has a lot of music missing, and sometimes tracks get pulled for no obvious reason.

...but even I think this thread is ridiculous. If you don't like the links then don't click them, problem solved surely?

I don't want to read the whole thing, is this an actually serious thread? Why?

Are we discussing Spotify's evil empire? There's another thread for that.

Leave forks alone

scott williams

mattresslessness is a complete clown, ban him instead. seriously

forks i have no beef with you and ultimately i'm not hugely concerned about issues of ownership around words on the internet but

there is maybe something a shade careless about co-opting people into a private game gone public without some kind of "asking if they're OK with it first" approach. imo

obv tho this is the internet so my moral reservation is tempered with caution, and is coloured by my general antagonism to aggregation of data/transfiguration of cultural product into same

also, a lot of the least helpful posts on this thread have not been from yourself or matt but from people dorkishly refusing to accept that anybody might have qualms about their idea of fun

Co-opting people? Am I co-opting people in the classical thread making my Bach playlist? That makes zero sense.

Yeah I absolutely refuse to accept that creating playlists with artists on a platform where the artists are publically available is offensive to anyone. I'd much rather accept complaints about those offended boarders co-opting artists into their moral grandstanding.

thanks for so lucidly underlining my second point

I do think what you're doing is offensive and you should apologize to forks.

forks i'm sorry for the crazed tirade i just unleashed on you

Wait a sec, I have to put my youtube playlists on private and go around all the internet places where I found music reccomendations the past five years to check if they're ok with me organizing these officially uploaded music videos in a vertical list of links.

t/f: the rap mixtape game on spotify is not strong

t

We have to STOP this enthusiast who's spending hours making the rolling threads more accessible to the people in them.

you are strong spirited

Listening to page after page of illegally uploaded youtube embeds? Great! Music to the people! But a playlist of officially uploaded material? Hang him!

as per rap mixtapes, spotify is.... spotty.
requires some creative exploration and shit disappears randomly.
it's also regularly mislabeled and/or confusingly filed for legal reasons or just out of sheer haphazard cataloguing.
there's dozens of young thug mixtapes for instance but some are labeled as Yung THUGG and plenty show up under the DJs name.
the deep curation is often meh. I've complained about it before but what that service needs imo is regular editors to manage, maintain, recommend and provide greater context than an allmusicguide bio.

nah they need to leave curation up to the users/artists, imo

someone please point me to the spotify playlist for this thread

Why does it make you uncomfortable? He doesn't use your name or any content of posting aside from artists and song titles to make something that everyone can access and listen to if they're interested in the genre.

― emil.y, Thursday, 4 February 2016 01:01 Bookmark

...

After all these years of having a strong artist-centric anti-spotify stance, I finally broke down and subscribed to spotify for the first time last month. The primary reason I did it was to access the rolling thread and eoy nom playlists. I've found that it's really good for sampling music for the purpose of deciding that I like it.

My primary time for listening to music is on my commute and youtube embeds or soundcloud links just don't work there. I've spent thousands of dollars on music from iTunes based on 30-second song samples, only to rack up a playcount of 1 for half the tracks and leaving the rest unplayed when I realized that I actually didn't like it. Using spotify, I've been able explore dozens of albums that I thought I would like, but haven't ended up liking at all. And a handful that I'm really really happy with. For the ones I'm really happy with, I'm totally going to buy something from the bands, whether it's a hard copy of their album, a shirt, a concert ticket, etc.

I know this probably isn't how most people use spotify, and that's why it's so bad for artists right now. But that's how I'm using it and it's working well to help me enjoy music I like while saving money on purchases made by errant recommendations/research.

Ethics aside, it's hard to resist something like Spotify.

ethics aside it's hard to resist fill in the blank

i agree it takes actual thinking, though

ok not wanting to be a dick but i'm Not A Fan either. i don't think spotify is ethically sound but it'd be hypocritical of me to hammer that point home so

- up to forks if he wants to do this for himself + i recognise it's handy for many others but it feels so much like ILX Sponsored By Spotify, it's v hard to ignore! especially when there are these regular bot-like bumps which are v disappointing when you click on a thread hoping for discussion or insight

- feel like it's just giving into the anti-rolling thread whingers and allowing them a means to bypass actually engaging with genre threads and their regulars, genre discussions, the nitty-gritty of what's actually changing or going on. analogous to the wider trend of plucking some cool sound you heard on the internet out of its context and then abdicating any need to learn about that context bc "convenience" "spoonfeeding" whatever. none of the rolling threads move especially fast these days and if you have so little interest in house or r&b or afropop or whatever that you can't even bring yourself to read them...i mean it doesn't matter how little you know, i'm a complete novice/dilettante in the afropop thread but the absolute least i can do when i catch up is to post about what i like and why i like it, not scurry off to the safety bubble of a spotify playlist

i just don't get the whole listening to music as science experiment thing, but w/e floats yr boat.. please stay away from the music 'industry', though, please

cue bitter people obsessed with the elusive "gatekeepers" of good hip music or whatever.

well yeah the entire "listening to music as data dump" concept is completely baffling to me and not how i'd ever want to consume music.

I'm a contributing regular in threads where forks has made playlists and I'm eternally thankful someone does the job for me so I can get a feel for what's being discussed across a year and a reminder of tracks i've forgotten, even when I've discussed through most of it myself.

The idea of someone who would potentially contribute to a thread skipping that because of a playlist is to me absurd and I don't believe it's ever applied to anyone.

The moral stance falls short when the threads are basically a playlist itself except heavier to load and one that doesn't give _anything_ back to the artist. At worst a playlist will keep a person from playing these.

The idea of someone who would potentially contribute to a thread skipping that because of a playlist is to me absurd and I don't believe it's ever applied to anyone.

the entire idea was born out of people whinging on EOY threads that they wanted to "keep up" in the vaguest way with various genres but were too "intimidated" to set foot in rolling threads

forks' playlists led me to discover a ton of music I never would have discovered otherwise. I don't get the complaint.

No cunt here ever made a tape I spose

pottery

― iatee, Thursday, 4 February 2016 05:38 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Classic ref btw

i dont do spotify cos i have an archive full of undiscovered gems i need to listen to,
however, i have absolutely no problem with forks, or glenn, doing their thing on ilm.

xp So those people wouldn't have entered the threads anyway and probably won't listen to a playlist either, but might, possibly. And if they do, if this has any affect on rolling threads, I would assume making it easier for people to hear what's being discussed would bring more people IN, not the other way around. I know some people face their browsers crashing if they try opening up an entire thread of embeds.

Some of you might not like listening to a playlist of music and that's great, but it's convenient for many and an obvious way to discover new sounds. But, ok, this impossibly grouchy attitude is sure to make the act of sharing music more joyful! And accusations of disturbing the holy bond of posters in certain threads and their particular ritual of sharing music will not at all make it scarier to join the clique!

The idea of someone who would potentially contribute to a thread skipping that because of a playlist is to me absurd and I don't believe it's ever applied to anyone.

I don't know if I've ever contributed to a rolling thread but I've been using them to check things out for years.

Exactly.

I'm still going through the ILM 2015 mega-playlist and you could argue this is even "lazier" in that it theoretically pulls all the 'best' stuff from the pigeonhole playlists.

ILM has perhaps plateaued or matured in terms of curation or gatekeeping - whether it's thru YouTube or Spotify or something else doesn't matter. Before these things existed people would scan threads and download whatever people were recommending - with no guarantee of contributing to any discussion on it.

10+ years ago there were things like the CD-Rs per year, Rough Guides To...now we have more easily assembled and shared playlists and I appreciate that to death because of what it took to get there. With every development someone complains it's now too easy or too unfair. All Spotify and ppl like forks and glenn do is change how it's done - eradicating old problems but introducing some new ones in their place. I used to feel overwhelmed going into the biggest HMV stores, now I have 100+ playlists I'd like to hear (when I'm not doing my own...).

The thing is that Youtube links have a tendency to expire pretty quickly, go back to a rolling thread from a year or two back and see how many of the links now go nowhere, and people posting on rolling threads don't always put a title or artist name in there when they post. Spotify's availability is patchy, especially in eg dance music, but these playlists are pretty useful nonetheless.

feel like it's just giving into the anti-rolling thread whingers and allowing them a means to bypass actually engaging with genre threads and their regulars, genre discussions, the nitty-gritty of what's actually changing or going on. analogous to the wider trend of plucking some cool sound you heard on the internet out of its context and then abdicating any need to learn about that context bc "convenience" "spoonfeeding" whatever. none of the rolling threads move especially fast these days and if you have so little interest in house or r&b or afropop or whatever that you can't even bring yourself to read them...i mean it doesn't matter how little you know, i'm a complete novice/dilettante in the afropop thread but the absolute least i can do when i catch up is to post about what i like and why i like it, not scurry off to the safety bubble of a spotify playlist

I find Doglatinesque discourse blagging as annoying as the next man, but even assuming there's a sufficient contingent of people like that, they wouldn't be engaging in the first place anyway. Some rolling threads are pretty good in terms of the discursive element, others are woeful. In general I feel like there's a lot more music and a lot less insight on a lot of rolling threads these days, especially compared to, say, the bobbins threads from 10 years ago, and everything being on Youtube is a big part of that. But honestly using words like spoonfeeding is projecting a lot. Like, YOU DON'T KNOW how much effort people are otherwise putting in to understand the genre. I regularly use playlists as a jumping off point, exploring other bits of the artist's discography or related compilations or whatever. They're an enhancement, not a substitute.

In any case, 'effort' (in terms of music discovery at least) is pretty fucking overrated. The effort should be in the listening and the understanding, how you come across it is irrelevant. It's not as if listening to a few Youtube embeds or a podcast or radio show once a week makes you some kind of supreme crate digger, and it won't guarantee you have more of interest to say at the end of it. Valuing one form of digital access above another is essentially the techier equivalent of those middle aged bores who think that not having to get a bus to an Our Price means that young people don't sufficiently appreciate music.

FYI let the record state the Benny B's regular genre mixes are ILM's single greatest resource and possibly its most unappreciated.

matt dc saving all his best posts for his erstwhile fellow site mods huh

i cry nepotism

Nashwan's post goes back to my earlier point that ILM was at its peak in terms of discussion and engagement in the post-Soulseek, pre-Youtube era, where everything in theory accessible but also just inaccessible enough. It meant that people could consume huge amounts of music, but at the same time actually had to make an effort to describe a record, and to think about why people might love it, or go out and seek something out on the basis of a description alone. The difference between this thread and the 2015 bobbins thread is vast.

The afrobeats thread is often one of the best for talking about changing scene dynamics, and wider political issues around the music, but we're in early February and there are already nearly 50 links in there. That's brilliant, there's a shitload of great music in there, but very little actual discussion.

Clicking through hundreds of Youtube embeds is, for me at least, one of the least enjoyable ways to listen to music, so anything that bundles enough of it up for listening on my commute is good with me.

i guess people forget that record stores these days have websites with sound clips and stuff

get the fuck over yourself if you have a problem with this

Basically any argument that festishizes the mode of discovery and makes a direct connection with level of passion/engagement is probably bullshit.

I hate Spotify, I hate the Spotify playlists (and fwiw I generally dislike the rolling threads). I'm voting 'no.'

I feel excluded from the threads that have Spotify playlists because of my opposition to streaming services that rip off artists, and I certainly don't like the idea of checking my conscience at the door and becoming part of what I see is the problem just to participate in a thread. Sorry if that sounds sanctimonious, it's just how I feel about it.

quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read on ilx

A bus to Our Price? In my day we'd pass round the score carved on a block of cheese and you'd just have to hope the rats hadn't eaten all the good bits by the time it got to your turn.

i don't listen to the playlists, i don't use spotify, i couldn't give a shit if he stopped doing the playlists tomorrow. but ffs forks is a saint who cares so much about music and does so much for this board. how can anyone in good conscience want to shit on his little playlist thing? ilx is public. youtube is public. spotify is public, QED. leave forks alone

(I suppose the exception to my rule is actual societal engagement and discovery - if you're going to deep tech nights every week then your engagement with the music and the culture is likely to be greater than someone checking a rolling thread or listening to a radio show or playlist. But not everyone has the ability to do that, and one form of solitary engagement is much the same as the rest as far as I'm concerned. Box tickers tend to be box tickers however they approach the music, and passionate partisans the same.)

idk who jimmy dyspeptic wine is but Matt p you are being a fucking nasty self righteous dick to forks about this and it's not cool

I don't use Spotify but honestly, how could this be a bad thing?

xp and what flops said.

I'm against it, fuck Spotify and fuck sending them business

someone who has literally posted thousands of YouTube embeds to ilx

fuck you, Shakey

this poll should be locked imo

wtf @ being excluded from thread because you're not using spotify? nothing changes in the rolling threads because of forks, everyone is still free to post and talk and listen. I didn't have spotify until a couple weeks ago and that never prevented me from posting in these threads, reading what people had to say, listening via bandcamp or youtube or whatever else I could find. Forks coming in and collecting stuff doesn't remove anything from the thread.

forks knows way more about the ins and outs of the music industry than any of you blowhard armchair critics, and has shown through 15 years of being part of our community to be someone who cares deeply about the ethics of the music industry. I'm sure he has solid reasons and a clear conscience, despite the complexity of the issue. the reflexive stupidity of saying 'ban him' because you have some half baked idea about how a company is bad is just embarrassing. so sad that this is even a half-serious discussion on this board

last i checked this was a public message board- did that change at some point?

wait hold the presses an indie fan doesn't care about politics

omg you are such a loser dude

forks yesterday

http://buibolg.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/3.5.a-butterfly-collector-small.jpg

Yeah, now we're a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Spotify Corp. Thanks a lot, forks!

xxp

Holy fucking shit that stuff about baking Glenn is out of line and should be removed by a mod you fucking masniacs

forks i have no beef with you and ultimately i'm not hugely concerned about issues of ownership around words on the internet but

there is maybe something a /shade/ careless about co-opting people into a private game gone public without some kind of "asking if they're OK with it first" approach. imo

obv tho this is the internet so my moral reservation is tempered with caution, and is coloured by my general antagonism to aggregation of data/transfiguration of cultural product into same

also, a lot of the least helpful posts on this thread have not been from yourself or matt but from people dorkishly refusing to accept that anybody might have qualms about their idea of fun

noodles you are a smart dude who can intellowank yourself into some truly idiotic corners at times, and this is one of those times. this thread should be locked and everyone involved should apologize to forks. forks, I love you and I'm sorry this happened

Use Spotify or don't. No need to act like a sanctimonious nit about how other people consume music.

ILX Premium to generate a playlist for each thread on the right hand side of the window.

ok not wanting to be a dick but i'm Not A Fan either. i don't think spotify is ethically sound but it'd be hypocritical of me to hammer that point home so

- up to forks if he wants to do this for himself + i recognise it's handy for many others but it feels so much like ILX Sponsored By Spotify, it's v hard to ignore! especially when there are these regular bot-like bumps which are v disappointing when you click on a thread hoping for discussion or insight

- feel like it's just giving into the anti-rolling thread whingers and allowing them a means to bypass actually engaging with genre threads and their regulars, genre discussions, the nitty-gritty of what's actually changing or going on. analogous to the wider trend of plucking some cool sound you heard on the internet out of its context and then abdicating any need to learn about that context bc "convenience" "spoonfeeding" whatever. none of the rolling threads move especially fast these days and if you have so little interest in house or r&b or afropop or whatever that you can't even bring yourself to read them...i mean it doesn't matter how little you know, i'm a complete novice/dilettante in the afropop thread but the absolute least i can do when i catch up is to post about what i like and why i like it, not scurry off to the safety bubble of a spotify playlist

someone spends hours does something nice and offers it to you for free. instead of saying 'thanks, I'm good, that is very generous of you' you say 'ew no don't offer it to other people you are spoon feeding them.' that's so unconscionably rude lex

Suggest not locking this thread but subjecting tastelessness to a lifetime ban if votes for "not" < 10%.

I can't even believe forks calmly responded to every moronic objection itt with rational logical arguments. like, that's how good of a guy he is! shame on you all for even making him take time out of his life to type that shit up. and yeah, Matt DC otm but this argument doesn't even deserve that kind of level headed reasoning. just so, so shitty to even begin this thread. shame on you

I don't think the thread should be locked. It's probably better to let everybody talk it out than to just shut down the discussion.

Οὖτις got schooled on who Glenn was and offered to fp himself, which is probably as close to an apology as we'll probably get. It's also one of my absolute favorite things when old school posters don't recognize other old school posters and this has to set some kind of all-time record for that.

Forks is a level-headed dude and I'm sure this is rolling off him like water off a duck's back.

I voted no because I would rather forks make Apple Music playlists for me, since I do not use Spotify.

forks shouldn't have to have this roll off his back, the threadstarter and naysayers should be water cannoned in the nuts

I'm not sure the original post really merits the level of huffy outrage on display here.

I'll email stet and see about getting that option added to the mod functions list. Until then, we're all stuck with each other.

idk man it's just the principle of it

xp

I like that the links disappear, things waft in and out like kestrels in the valley

I don't think I can see the first post or who started the poll cause I'm on zing but the tenor of some of the later posts and the nature of the objection are extremely disrespectful imo

unfortunately being on zing also means I can't fp

To document is to kill, to feel is to live, as the old sign down by the quarry used to say before the local kids spraypainted "ADEYZ LIFE" over it

fwiw i really like the techno tracks Matt p posts on the bobbins threads (I even enjoyed his deep house mix this morning!) and hopes he gets over this fit and continues to do so

Everything dies eventually.

i think it's always worth considering what matt p says as he is a smart, principled and numerously deprivileged individual - so while i am on forks' side here, and am grateful for his enormous effort in helping to expand our engagement with music, i wouldn't simply silence the threadstarter - forks himself has engaged with him, so i don't see why the rest of us shouldn't

I don't think I can see the first post or who started the poll cause I'm on zing but the tenor of some of the later posts and the nature of the objection are extremely disrespectful imo

― flopson, Thursday, February 4, 2016 8:17 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i'll give you one guess

forks i have no beef with you and ultimately i'm not hugely concerned about issues of ownership around words on the internet but

there is maybe something a shade careless about co-opting people into a private game gone public without some kind of "asking if they're OK with it first" approach. imo

obv tho this is the internet so my moral reservation is tempered with caution, and is coloured by my general antagonism to aggregation of data/transfiguration of cultural product into same

also, a lot of the least helpful posts on this thread have not been from yourself or matt but from people dorkishly refusing to accept that anybody might have qualms about their idea of fun

― Chikan wa akan de. Zettai akan de. (Noodle Vague), Thursday, February 4, 2016 7:20 AM (5 hours ago)

though obviously share 'antagonism to aggregation of data/transfiguration of cultural product' don't think the ethical claims quite work

the value of the metadata.....this probably is of very negligible value to the company given minor status of ilx in the grand scheme of things; neither being sufficiently large in aggregate, nor sufficiently coherent in authorship (some experts, insofar as they exist, a lot of random nonexperts)

the co-option argument....even if naming a track creates some form of interest in that datum, then anyone posting to an aggregate thread rather than 'x's list of extraordinary reggae tracks' really disclaims individual interest in favour of the collective; if ilx considered collective and indivisble author, then the consumer is the author

if there were a small enough discrete group of people to ask the question 'do you mind' then that might be reasonable, but what forks is doing depends on this metadata being from a large, diffuse group of people, so practically impossible

I love Matt he is just massively wrong and bad in this instance. I hold no grudge but imo he should apologize to forks.

I don't think this is something that even a board consensus of 'no' should be allowed to resolve, it's just like, idk it's not even up for discussion because there is no discussion. we are a community of internet music nerds that linked to blogs that didn't pay musicians now we link to youtubes that don't pay musicians, now someone who links youtubes wants to prevent sumone from linking to a thing that pays labels who in turn don't pay musicians enough? and claims some moral ground for it? fuck that. I hate the hamfisted oneupmanny moral logic but also just I think it's so mean to forks to try and turn the community against his benevolent and purely voluntary project, and on top of it to say mean things to him. and the 'let's think about it' chinstrokers who don't see this for what it is, and on top of it make aggro snarky posts. Idk this is a community and that's just not cool

'a smart, principled and numerously deprivileged individual'

are you sure you're not describing an articulate rapper here?

to quote an inarticulate rapper, what you lookin at you lit-tul rich boy?

flopson vm otm itt

xp

this is war

forks is good people as far as I'm concerned, as is flopson, so i would hate for my thinking out loud - and quite possibly being wrong - about different ways of contextualizing experiences of music to be seen as being disrespectful, never mind offensive.

i have a minor niggle about taking from a conversation in one place and repurposing some of it in another. it's probably more of an intellowank niggle than a genuine sense of wrong-doing, but i felt more honest sharing it than saying nothing

spotify is awesome btw everyone should use spotify this is my official endorsement of spotify

(my apologies for not knowing about the name change. also, what everyone else said about glenn's and forks's contributions to the board and the music business.)

NV- I'm sure there was nothing wrong with ur post itt + in general love the intellowank, just felt oddly roused by this CF out of a sense that forks is at times unduly bullied on the board for being nothing but an earnest lover of music and the rank stench of Matt's argument and felt I had to draw a line in the sand

mattresslessness IS the shit poster he and many of his friends accuse me of being -- y'all are just less suspicious of his politics. In your heart you know I'm right

that would suggest 'are you cool with forks' poll with the options 'forks is a top lad' 'loves his tunes does forks' and 'yes'
would vote yes :)

all the "Spotify is evil!" stuff is fucking infantile imo

I work in the music business and the hundredth of a penny I get from a Spotify spin is used to feed two children so anybody who thinks their take is somehow more artists-needs than mine can go cut bait, the "well it's a bad deal so I'm not supporting it" is exactly the "I hate the major labels so I download for free but if a better system came along I'd pay the artist" garbage

flopson massively OTM in short, thank you for your righteous posts

Thanks to this thread, I've discovered a bunch of cool playlists that forks has curated. Appreciate the tip, mattress!

Poll Closing Date: Sunday, February 28, 2016 7:00 PM (in 3 weeks)

is it possible to get an extension on this?!!?!

omg just saw this thread. anyone that would have a problem with forks nerding out and making these playlist is totally insane . I have to admit that i'm really surprised by this shit and that this thread wasn't just locked.

I'm still trying to figure out how he does it. Seems nearly impossible to keep up but I'll enjoy it while it lasts

this is some silly shit

i know, february 28th is less than a month away, the deadline is on a sunday night (traditionally my time for hanging out), and i'm really worried there could be some confusion with the leap year factor. March 28th is surely safer?!?!

I voted "not" by accident because I didn't understand the question

lol you all are ridiculous

one thing to keep in mind is that it's very easy to ask for permission on ILX

i mean if you want to "take the temperature" you just need to start a quick little poll thread and pop the question. (helps to have a reasonable deadline though...)

I've been sleeping on Spotify but I think this thread has finally convinced me to give it a whirl, if only to check out some of forks' playlists.

(Hope it was okay to post that without permission.)

well! her comes ol' forks!

good ol' forks ... yes, sir!

good ol' forks ...

How we hate him.

Oh, good forks
How we hate him!
How we hate him!
Our dear old good forks

burn this guy forks

Pitchforks --- offa this website!

You can't burn a fork.

You can't burn a fish, but you can tuna fork.

WARNING: This thread uses
http://www.thehatblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/blog-beret-lennon-e1375309662713-281x300.jpg
Cookies!

(Xpost to Old Lunch)

i think it's always worth considering what matt p says as he is a smart, principled and numerously deprivileged individual - so while i am on forks' side here, and am grateful for his enormous effort in helping to expand our engagement with music, i wouldn't simply silence the threadstarter - forks himself has engaged with him, so i don't see why the rest of us shouldn't

― ZESTY O'PRIDE (imago)

He's also one of the biggest bullies on ilx, and this thread does nothing to dispel that reputation. I did try to engage with the question on an honest basis at the beginning of this thread, trying to work out if there was something that I'd missed, until it transpired that the objection was actually "I don't like the way you do it you should do more work until you do it the way I like it".

such mean posts on this thread

Well, it's an important subject that stirs up deep emotions. It can hardly be helped.

I hope that was sarcasm.

It started out silly then got a lil sillier then it started to go too far back the other way and then waaaay too much the other way somewhere about 2pm Dublin time forks was canonised and we shall not look for his like on the mortal plane again as of 3.40ish matt was to be tarred and feathered we expect that by 6pm someone will have realised that ilm is the pits and that this non issue didn't really matter and it will all have died down by dinner (carrot and celeriac soup)

Good thread tho.

Will live long in the memory.

somewhere about 2pm Dublin time forks was canonised and we shall not look for his like on the mortal plane again

lol, otm.

forks, how much money are you getting from Goldman Sachs?

I'm cool with forks' work, and I'd be cool with anybody else doing similar work in any other listening format. I can understand the idea of objecting to people posting links to non-artist-authorized, non-royalty-paying versions of the music people are discussing. Spotify links are, by nature, artist-authorized and royalty-paying. YouTube and Soundcloud links are sometimes authorized and paying, and sometimes not. So if you're posting YouTube links and objecting to Spotify links, I think you might be misunderstanding how one or both of these systems operate.

I don't think streaming is bad for music. My opinion on this topic is not a result of my working (now) at Spotify, but the fact that I continue to work at Spotify is a result of my opinion that doing so is pro-music not anti-music. And while my opinion on this topic has no more or less moral weight than anybody else's, it is at least based on more knowledge about how streaming works than the average person who doesn't work for a streaming service or a distributor or label.

As others have pointed out, I have been on ILM for a long time. I'm not here as a Spotify sales rep, and nobody at Spotify tells me what to say or not say here. I participate in the Spotify-specific thread because a) it's interesting to me, and b) I sometimes can add actual information to discussions that would otherwise be purely speculative or actively misinformed, and c) Spotify is not an anonymous borg, it's a relatively small set of actual humans doing actual things, and it seems like in general we're all better off if people who work at companies continue acting like people.

For me, personally, ILM ranges cheerfully from incredibly useful to bafflingly toxic. Personally, I wish everybody used real names and there were no polls and nobody ever tried to talk somebody else out of loving something they love. But this set includes not using real names, and polls, and somehow even trying to talk people out of loving things they love.

here here

or hear hear even

<3 flopson putting everything on blast

peace to forks a great dude

never ban glenn

Nobody's really suggesting Glenn is banned

Someone did! Also someone made the joke 'glenn banzig', which I feel should have got more applause. Also someone said "we wouldn't stand for it if other companies had representatives here" (or something along those lines)... but we do. We have people who work for G4wker, V1ce, P1tchfork (not sure why I'm googleproofing but let's go with it). We have people who talk about their work and the different perspectives it gives them all the time.

I don't even use my real name at work.

But my playlists are impeccable.

Of course it's fine for forks to do that. This is ridiculous.

Well, except the ones that were published publicly by accident. I hate how Spotify makes it so hard to keep those in line! Glenn, help me out, my account number is 289304 and my credit card number is the one with 694 on the back.

Someone did

or to put it another way... nobody did

but seriously nobody else is taking that suggestion seriously

first met forks ~11 years ago at a large ilx gathering at a bar. he brought along a sizable box of CDs -- promos from his job, maybe some mixes, i don't remember for sure. (it was actually slightly weird.) between that, and his former blog, his helping ilxors find music work/internships, his decade-plus of posts, and his palpable excitement about music and introducing ppl to it . . . flopsy otm

He walked it back, tbf, but:

I also think it's creepy that we have our own Spotify sales rep now, dude should be banned

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 7:41 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Anyone who's getting paid to work at a job is compromised and impure and should be lifetime banned imo.

I found that post, I was making a joke about his username being "nobody"

& yeah, one poster suggesting it & then immediately retracting = we do not need to be talking about this as a thing that will ever happen

Nobody's on first.

he brought along a sizable box of CDs -- promos from his job, maybe some mixes, i don't remember for sure. (it was actually slightly weird.)

tbf i was already pretty well hammered by the time you arrived

kinda like forks' pottery! (you make pottery with a hammer, right?)

I will be disappointed if this thing ends in a kickstarter for forks' new kiln and not a script called forks.py

hope no one minds but I've turned this thread into some natty wallpaper for my arbeitszimmer

i work for a video game studio and run coint and plick, i should probably be banned from ilx too right? fuck everyone

<3 you forks, <3 you glenn, could someone make a fucking list of permalinks to the shittiest posts on this thread so i can just FP them all at once?

i voted no for the lulz

Are you cool with forks making Spotify playlists out of every rolling thread without permission?

which is probably as close to an apology as we'll probably get.

I did apologize, read upthread.

also lol wins you get a gold star sticker

Just a bit of fun, so let's be cool

I am sorry as well, Οὖτις.

fight the real enemy (pre-cover albums)

lol @ "numerously deprivileged individual"

"check out our new curated playlists, What's Next In Fruity Swag Goon Music 2016 - EDITOR'S PICKS!!!" ...?

They do do this fwiw. See my last post on the Spotify thread re: stealing my friends' online radio station playlists.

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:16 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Just to both fulfill the expectation that I always defend Spotify AND demonstrate my point about adding actual information: the "They" in the SomaFM case was random Spotify users, not anybody who works for Spotify, and thus exactly not an example of what you claim...

i hold no grudges against anyone itt but flopson relentlessly otm throughout imo

also to respond to this lex post:

feel like it's just giving into the anti-rolling thread whingers and allowing them a means to bypass actually engaging with genre threads and their regulars, genre discussions, the nitty-gritty of what's actually changing or going on. analogous to the wider trend of plucking some cool sound you heard on the internet out of its context and then abdicating any need to learn about that context bc "convenience" "spoonfeeding" whatever. none of the rolling threads move especially fast these days and if you have so little interest in house or r&b or afropop or whatever that you can't even bring yourself to read them...i mean it doesn't matter how little you know, i'm a complete novice/dilettante in the afropop thread but the absolute least i can do when i catch up is to post about what i like and why i like it, not scurry off to the safety bubble of a spotify playlist

the #1 (and prob exclusive) obstacle preventing me from engaging w/ rolling threads is the shitty functionality brought on by endless youtube embeds. it slows my browser down, sometimes makes it crash, it super fucking clunky when i listen to something and then try to respond to, and so many links are dead with months anyways.

dr casino very much otm here too

i mean... the rolling threads are basically wall-to-wall youtube embeds right? like people have already provided a one-stop shop for listening to the music they recommend... i'm not sure i get why that same lineup being transposed to some other format is suddenly weird and makes you not want to post things. is it that it divorces the songs from who picked them and makes the whole thing more anonymous/less visibly a collective effort? i don't really hang out on rolling threads tbh but i gather that those who do kinda "know" each other's tastes, "oh man, that is such a 'lex' song" or whatever... and i could see where making it easy to get the music but not the people/conversation might rub someone the wrong way...?

so... given the youtube thing - --- while i would believe that spotify is more problematic or evil than youtube, it's not like without the forks playlists, the music would only be heard in some kind of unmediated free-love manner. also all those embeds tend to make it impossible to load the threads or conveniently listen to the music IME. like you really have to perch at the computer, daintily click play on a single youtube embed, sit there and listen to it and consider your response (or if you liked the song, painstakingly save it to your itunes wishlist [is that a thing?] or more likely, your own spotify playlist) before scrolling down to click play on the next single youtube embed.... seems like just getting them into your regular listening regime makes a fuck of a lot more sense. also for those who make EOY ballots or just generally want to stay current with things, seems like a massive massive resource. i'm kind of a curmudgeon and generally just wait for the EOY results to catch up on what i should have been adding to my playlists all year but maybe this will change.

typed most of that before forks's explanatory post. hrm. i guess it makes a LITTLE more sense to me now. like i don't want to dismiss people having misgivings or ambivalent feelings even though the wording of some of their reactions is kinda offputting to me. hmm.

― the thirteenth floorior (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, February 3, 2016 8:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

all in all i v much appreciate the work forks has done w/ these playlists, thank you forks

Just to be clear I voted Not because I thought this was a joke thread and it seems some of you are actually taking it serious.

the "They" in the SomaFM case was random Spotify users, not anybody who works for Spotify, and thus exactly not an example of what you claim...

take it up with Rusty. the fact is Spotify is making money off of them while SomaFM is getting fucked out of money for the very same content due to recent royalty rulings the benefit Spotify and screw internet radio providers.

the = that

Feel like Lex's big victory wrt influencing ILM's taste was starting that Wut thread which consequently propelled the track to the top of the EOY poll. Now imagine he'd buried it several months deep in 'Rolling dance partisans 2010' or whatever. Rolling threads can be useful but they're no substitute for genuinely enthused threads on individual songs.

The best rolling threads tend to be ones that stem from discussions on one particular tune - like the entire UK funky thread growing out of one person ripping for Do You Mind.

is this a bad time to reveal that I am David Geffen?

I thought you were Damo Suzuki

Can't he be both? It's the 21st Century ffs.

As a total side comment/pro tip, the best approach to functionality in Youtube-heavy threads is to turn off "display images" in your preferences while you're browsing that particular thread

I feel like copy/pasting this entire thread to the LOLZ thread.

lol @ "numerously deprivileged individual"

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 4 February 2016 17:33 (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Certainly the worst genuinely-held opinion posited itt

cryptosicko i've had just about enough of your taking our hard-worked-upon commentary on this topic and listing it gutlessly for some lolz thread. i jsut don't get people who get their lolz from that thread, they lose the context and just have joekz spoonfed to them
xp

we're prob not deprivileged enough yet to appreciate it xp

Just a bit of fun, so let's be cool

ty for this

http://www.amazon.com/Anything-collection-Reddits-best-Volume/dp/0692582266

omg ahahahhahaahahahahahahahaha

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truly the impact of Wut has been felt through the years for us all.

i <3 lex and we overlap on taste as much or more than with most people (same for mattress, tbrr) but dude, your argument is based on an elitist "i understand how listening to music should be done" approach. None of us are doing it "wrong". We're all just listening. We all listen differently. Polarized dichotomies of Aristotelian TRUTH when it comes to means of engagement (and, god help us, perceived quality of art itself) are anathema to me and just about the worst thing about ILM.

Demanding that neophytes wade into notoriously partisan threads and voice their opinions is sometimes a good experience for all concerned. Other times, folks get browbeaten viciously. IIRC, deej went after you in the afrobeats thread when you (reasonably imo) said that you wanted to engage music in the genre mostly out of context as you didn't have the wherewithal to have an authentic on the ground relationship to it. In his opinion, you were doing it wrong. You thought you were doing it your way. We're all just doing it our way.

In short, we are not the most welcoming environment for lurkers! Folks notoriously love to start fights about dumb shit on ILM for the lulz (I had an example I was gonna use here but i forgot what it was...). Demanding that anyone who enjoys the music must engage here ignores the possibility that maybe the social stress of such interaction may not be healthy, maybe they're sharing the music with their IRL friends and significant others (I do!) or using the newly discovered music to help support the artists in other real world arenas (we both do!). And not to call out a guy's real name on an ilx beef thread when shit gets heated but aren't you a regularly published music critic? Your method of enjoying and engaging music is probably as far removed from that of a truly casual listener as you can get... and there's a lot more of those out there than there are music critics. Casual listeners deserve respect too!

And as per your note on my own listening methods: what is the Singles Jukebox, to take a for instance we've both written for, but "listening to music as data dump," albeit one that is curated by people you respect? What is working on assignment but splicing your own interests and your editor's data dump into monetizable considerations?

I'm actually printing this whole thread out and having it screenprinted on a t-shirt like those crazy millenials are doing with Bee Movie

http://nymag.com/following/2016/02/heres-the-whole-script-of-bee-movie-on-a-shirt.html

I'm actually printing this whole thread out

ah, clusterfucks of yore

i miss the days of real ilx scandals like modest mickey trying to trick the entirety of ILM into incriminating themselves for copyright infringement, or luna pretending to be jenna jameson, or that time everyone thought drake and future finished at #3 in the albums poll.

Notable posters have included Momus,[2] Simon Reynolds, Philip Sherburne, Drew Daniel of Matmos and The Soft Pink Truth,[3] John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats,[4] Frank Kogan, Ned Raggett,[5] former The Wire editor Mark Sinker, Jenna Jameson,[6] former Village Voice music editor Chuck Eddy, Peter Chung (creator of Æon Flux), Fluxblog author Matthew Perpetua and Modest Mickey.[citation needed]

re that pitbull article my sympathies cannot help but lie w/ the dad who lost his son to a pitbull and not to these psychotic pro-pitbull types. what do u guys think - could ilx use a good pitbull clusterfuck?

i think we don't talk often enough about the fact that the guy who made aeon flux has his own board on ilx that he regularly answers anytime anyone posts something there.

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=59

Re: clusterfucks, I'm almost afraid to broach the subject, but did we ever get a ruling on is it okay to wash a hat in front of a baby y/n?

fun thread

The difference between this thread and the 2015 bobbins thread is vast.

― Matt DC, Thursday, February 4, 2016 12:06 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

From bobbins thread 2004:

(And if anyone wants to make a mix of all these and post it here, my thanks in advance.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:49 AM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Anyway, what a crazy thread. I read it while listening to the rolling favorite tracks 2016 spotify list - wow, there's a LOT of good stuff there already! Thanks for all the helpful list Forks! And thanks to the other posters who make lists for the Acclaimed Music polls etc.

I would like to hear that playlist but is there like an overarching permission slip I can get signed or do I need to ask permission from each person involved and, if so, are gifts of respect a customary part of the permission-requesting procedure?

stick a fork in this thread it's done

so we're not cool with forks doing this, it's decided

No, he's definitely crossed the uncrossable line this time.

sometimes forks does things that push me out of my comfort zone, like making spotify playlists, but that's part of what makes him so sexy

Why does nobody ever talk about the cloves or the tofu?

fwiw I had fish & chips

cloves and tofu doesn't sound like a great combo but what do i know (nothing)

what a silly thread

Notable posters have included Momus,[2] Simon Reynolds, Philip Sherburne, Drew Daniel of Matmos and The Soft Pink Truth,[3] John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats,[4] Frank Kogan, Ned Raggett,[5] former The Wire editor Mark Sinker, Jenna Jameson,[6] former Village Voice music editor Chuck Eddy, Peter Chung (creator of Æon Flux), Fluxblog author Matthew Perpetua and Modest Mickey.[citation needed]
― ulysses

you forgot violin dude called Owen who plays with Arcade Fire and Grimes' boyfriend.

And myself, my claim to fame is I once gave Morgan Freeman a kiss on the cheek.

guest starring

Scout Niblett
Ta-Nehisi Coates
Robert Christgau

Love when so-called poptimists trot out their important concerns about people listening to music inauthentically

Wait, did Jenna Jameson was really an ilxor poster? Where?

Matt kinda a dick itt everyone agrees but kudos to his display name *silver lining*

Sorry for the bad english I meant:

Did Jenna Jameson really posted on ilxor? Where?

Jenna Jameson - what?!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCumH8LRo1A/mqdefault.jpg

Poor Chris Ott.

Also he's the only person in this thread who's been needlessly aggro

Yeah, Jenna used to post a lot of candid production shots back in the day when ILX was primarily about the adult entertainment industry.

she posted as Esteban Buttez, iirc

high level p4k people have also posted here iirc

erstwhile ilxor and noted "Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" aficionado nabisco

The difference between this thread and the 2015 bobbins thread is vast.
― Matt DC, Thursday, February 4, 2016 12:06 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

From bobbins thread 2004:

(And if anyone wants to make a mix of all these and post it here, my thanks in advance.)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:49 AM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for Ned

Bobbins 2004 'No Samples Cleared' Spotify Playlist

i do think it's a little lame that forks seems to want to turn into the nu-kerr, like one of those annoying "facilitators" at company retreats who goes around from table to table to see how everyone's doing and if there's anything they can do to help

that said he's a good dude and this thread was dumb, though redeemed in part by "numerously-deprivileged individual", never change louis

she posted as Esteban Buttez, iirc

― Darin, Thursday, February 4, 2016 2:02 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol think of all the ilxors who, like me, gave up literal minutes trying to think of the funneyest ilxor for this joke and gave up

i do think it's a little lame that forks seems to want to turn into the nu-kerr, like one of those annoying "facilitators" at company retreats who goes around from table to table to see how everyone's doing and if there's anything they can do to help

this is an unkind and uncool post. "I do think it's a little lame that people are helpful." gb2 high school with that kind of ridiculous take imo, helpful people are great

tonight, I kicked myself for forgetting the touchpad so all I can internet on is my phone, and on here its like looking through a mailbox flap.

and I have found this thread, and it seems the right thing to use!

i think ilx could use a good teambuilding retreat

Comedy ILFord of the past, have we forgotten Garu-G?

yeah kevin like you even needed to say that

other than to be a dick if so well done

Nah I get it, ILX is suffering a drought of insufferable dickbags atm. All this facilitating people's discovery and enjoyment of new things, it's like ugh enough already gtfo amirite.

No I do not want my beverage topped off, wtf is your problem.

Re: clusterfucks, I'm almost afraid to broach the subject, but did we ever get a ruling on is it okay to wash a hat in front of a baby y/n?

― If This Town Is Just An Asshole Then Let Me Take A Bite (Old Lunch), Thursday, 4 February 2016 18:35 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not top of the things we never got sorted in clusterfucks tbh

nb none of the ppl ilx thinks are famous are yknow famous,love em all tho I may

Dickbaggery is a non-denominational strategy, clearly

Man, poll is running for three weeks?

Three days would be enough surely?

deems how was the soup

I found the fish & chips mildly unsatisfying

Is the reason you had soup because you are not cool with forks

lol

regretting my cackhanded attempts to say 'matt has it tough and has irl insight so excluding his voice is bad' upthread, sure

anything to fuel kevin's hilarious zing complex though

Soup was good tho, not unlike some of our esteemed colleagues, a little salty. I'd look at the mix of my stock next time.

Voted no because forks' Spotify playlists don't give enough in-playlist attribution to ILX Rolling contributors, thus robbing thinkfluencing gatekeepers everywhere. For shame.

The playlists are an incredibly handy resource throughout the year for checking in on different genre pockets that might otherwise get left out, esp. for EOY stuff. Despite gripes earlier about adverse effects of playlisting the Rolling threads' contributions, I think having these playlists draws more people in to entering into / contributing to the discussions in the long term.

The playlist for the 50's poll was particularly fine.

And out of copyright...

nb none of the ppl ilx thinks are famous are yknow famous,love em all tho I may

― broderik f (darraghmac), Thursday, 4 February 2016 20:31 (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they only need to be famous enough to be allowed in a deadpool team

hey compupost: we got the ben frost show

one of the most ridiculous things about this shitfest: i would wager that a larger than average proportion of tracks from the bobbins thread(s) probably aren't even on spotify. relative to the other rolling threads. forks would know.

forks/ulysees, what threads are the least spotify-able?

maybe my clam is just more toxic elitist partisan thinking.

Thanking you for new dn.

wtf kev keller

lol, happy to be of service xp

xp to myself, i guess that was part of the objection, though, that it forcefully excludes non-spotify artists.

least spotify friendly are the bobbins, hip hop and k-pop threads but none of them end up with less than a 70% hit ratio by year's end. Grime might be the least of the bunch, that's more like 50% or so.

for R&B, Country, Pop, Shambhala, Indie Rock, and Global it's more like 90%+

good job you motherfuckers ruined Black History Month already

wow 70% that's pretty good

Forks' patience in digging up things in Cyrillic for the Eastern Europe thread is admirable.

forks, are you doing this all manually? (apologies if methodology was already explained)

what i really like about this poll is the phrase "without permission," as though you have like a copyright in the posting of a youtube to a thread that can only be waived by your express agreement. i imagine it's hard af to make a living as a music writer and you gotta cling to whatever work product you can vaguely lay claim to, but come on, seriously?

think it was more a sense of "we are doing this fun thing" vs "we are doing this fun thing that automatically benefits or contributes to a thing we don't like and that diminishes the fun for us" than a claim to property

xp to Sufjan: yeah, sadly I am.

I can take a crack at a python script if you're interested

I'm tech stupid but sure! The major problems with something that would just crawl the page and automatically add to a playlist are that people misspell names and song titles all the time. And so does Spotify! And any other service as well. I do a lot of hunting around to find things that don't show up where they should. But anything that would narrow the gap!

A plug-in or applet or whatever the fuck that could pull all the music on a page by name seems like something that would catch on big if it was done right. This could be the next hipster puppies ILX success story. Call it "forks" and buy me dinner and I'll give you permission.

that app would have to ask for permission before collecting the music

xp yeah, it would only work for ilx and would miss things. I'd just modify the really bad script I use to count # of posts in an ilx thread and learn one of the python libraries for spotify out there. no guarantees. will definitely call it forks.py if I get around to it.

for the record i don't use spotify because i decided many years ago that i would never pay to steal. it's a shitty moral principle and i wouldn't dream of trying to enforce it on anyone else, but it's the only one i have, and i'm not giving it up.

i use free spotify when i do use it, which saves me hundreds of cents. i have this one ad memorized unfortunately..

"so i, uh, well...i just wanted to say, you know, the thing is...i was kind of wondering if you wanted to..."
*"sexy" guitar jam*

FWIW, this objection makes no sense in either direction. Spotify gets all its music from legal rights-holders who send it to us, and pays royalties for all plays once we get it. We no more "steal" music than Amazon steals books. Also, you can use Spotify for free (that is, by allowing yourself to be advertised to).

(You can argue about whether we pay enough, or pay the right way, or various other things. But there's no meaningful sense in which we steal anything.)

And, just to be clear, the same applies to Apple Music and Google Play, and I assume to Deezer and Rhapsody and Amazon. It's not a Spotify-specific point.

Non-on-demand services like Pandora are different, as are user-uploading services like YouTube and Soundcloud.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/business/6828092/spotify-class-action-royalties-david-lowery-cracker-150-million

altho

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160101/01203133219/understanding-david-lowerys-lawsuit-against-spotify-insanity-music-licensing.shtml

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/apr/03/how-much-musicians-make-spotify-itunes-youtube

this thread eventually got nice and loose and lolsy, but man, if we're gonna just do a straight rehash of the spotify thread then it really is time to lock it imo.

Also discussed here Stop Thinking of Yourself as a Good Person: The Ethics and Economics of Music Streaming

xp how could we ever do that w/o croup. how could we do anything for that matter.

The lawsuits are one of the only things I can't talk about, because lawyers. But nothing about them contradicts what I said above.

And if there are any helpful Apple or Google people on the thread, who know all the same information but aren't currently being sued, feel free to jump in and answer questions.

"i imagine it's hard af to make a living as a music writer"

Well, see, heres the thing

There was a point way back on ILX (I dunno, 8? 12? years ago) when one user was constantly starting one type of thread and it sorta bugged me -- like, "why is [said person] *always* doing that? ugh. so annoying. wahh."

Then I guess I kinda grew up. I was being dumb.

Some people use the internet differently than I do. It's okay.

Word on the street was that brodie was J Jameson's sock account

Getting off?

Notable posters have included Momus,[2] Simon Reynolds, Philip Sherburne, Drew Daniel of Matmos and The Soft Pink Truth,[3] John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats,[4] Frank Kogan, Ned Raggett,[5] former The Wire editor Mark Sinker, Jenna Jameson,[6] former Village Voice music editor Chuck Eddy, Peter Chung (creator of Æon Flux), Fluxblog author Matthew Perpetua and Modest Mickey.[citation needed]

Why you posting wiki trivia about http://www.thefedoralounge.com/ ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fNAiI2ZBsg

what i really like about this poll is the phrase "without permission," as though you have like a copyright in the posting of a youtube to a thread that can only be waived by your express agreement.
--een

otm

I understand that different people draw their moral boundaries with regards to living with the compromises inherent under capitalism in different places.

But it's strange to me that people would choose to demand a zero-tolerance approach to an imperfect tech provider such as Spotify.

And yet they do not choose to exercise a zero-tolerance approach to really seriously imperfect tech providers such as Amazon (Amazon of the tax avoidance, the union busting, the disregard for labour conditions) by... not reading or posting to ILX (we are still hosted on Amazon, yes? and I see their ad banners, often for really awful things, every morning until I log in.)

Thread starter is a bully, yes, and has repeatedly declared himself the self-appointed Tone Police for all of ILX like a human Tumblr GIF, which does not endear me to the thread or the principle. But "I'm going to pick on the easy targets, but never address the harder targets in which I am equally complicit" is not really a morally defensible position.

I'm with you up until the words "morally defensible position", because I just don't think we should hold the average person to high, I would almost argue perfectionist, moral standards. An ethics of convenience is inadequate for the purposes of evangelization, but to argue that such ethics are flatly unacceptable is a little puritan for my tastes.

OK, for "not a morally defensible position" substitute something a little more like "don't pretend you're not being just a little bit hypocritical while calling other people out for their hypocrisy, but hey, most people have to be a little bit hypocritical to function in the societies we exist in, we just pick different battles."

I'm trying and failing not to reach for the aphorism about "speck, eye, log", but.

Are you cool with polls attacking users in this community?

Are you?

No, I am not cool with polls attacking users in this community because I've been the focus of a few of them over the years. But I don't know if that was a specific question to me or not.

I'm tech stupid but sure! The major problems with something that would just crawl the page and automatically add to a playlist are that people misspell names and song titles all the time. And so does Spotify! And any other service as well. I do a lot of hunting around to find things that don't show up where they should. But anything that would narrow the gap!

A plug-in or applet or whatever the fuck that could pull all the music on a page by name seems like something that would catch on big if it was done right. This could be the next hipster puppies ILX success story. Call it "forks" and buy me dinner and I'll give you permission.

― ulysses, Thursday, 4 February 2016 21:52 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have a friend who's supposedly working on such an app at the moment by the way.

Thread starter is a bully, yes

No, ime/o. And that's as close to a defence of him as you're going to get from me.

Citations not really needed, mind.

"OK, for "not a morally defensible position" substitute something a little more like "don't pretend you're not being just a little bit hypocritical while calling other people out for their hypocrisy, but hey, most people have to be a little bit hypocritical to function in the societies we exist in, we just pick different battles."

I'm trying and failing not to reach for the aphorism about "speck, eye, log", but."

Yeah, that I can agree with. I'm personally inclined to use the phrase "holier-than-thou" in this context.

dog latin, your friend did not ask me permission. i call backsies.

A plug-in or applet or whatever the fuck that could pull all the music on a page

i wrote a script for pulling the youtube links from ilx threads at one point. no idea where it is now tho.

i think some of the aversion to spotify is an aversion to listening to a database, and all the barely engaged listening facilitated by the vast playlists easily generated or accessed through it.

It’s lazy to pretend all private listening is the same; context shapes how you hear things, whether you're sitting down with expensive boutique label vinyl, sweating to a radio set on a treadmill or going for a nocturnal trip down a youtube hole.

I'm bemused by these playlists tho, outside of supreme indolence or an aversion to words idgi. if I’m not in a position to read a thread, there’s plenty of much better curated stuff out there. and how could the ilxness of it matter when it's shorn of ilxness?

I used to see the sort of blind listening encouraged by these aggregated lists of unknowns as like swimming around and seeing what i bumped into, but lots of excellent stuff can sound unappealing like that, randomly sequenced, & it skews towards magpie-listening

this goes down to how people use ILX and what they're looking for w music generally. whether you're just looking for grist for the mill or yr trying to hone or develop some sensitivity. do you want to hear more or hear better

how dare you fucking presume with what depth i or anyone else listens to a playlist you pretentious jerk

You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

ITT: unnecessary umbrage

Hey guys I'm back. You said we needed to get persimmons, right?

http://foodshift.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/fruit-persimmon-photo1-l.jpg

woah for fucks sake guys

I know things are getting heated itt but impugning each others' playlist listening depth is not on

ogmor, you and i disagree on some integral points that i think i've already said my peace on but i did want to note that i like the phrase "going for a nocturnal trip down a youtube hole" and am singing it in my head to the tune of the end of "little bunny foo foo, hopping through the internet, going for a NOCturnal trip down a youtube hole"

think I just hit my record for FPs in a single thread

flopson OTM throughout

Keep up the good work forksclovetofulysses!

thread: http://i.imgur.com/PfUWww7.gifv

Very concerned here that I may be listening to music in the wrong way.

You haven't really ~experienced~ music unless you listen hanging upside down with all the blood rushing to your head

How dare you fucking second guess the way you listen to fucking music. Your music-listening style is fucking beautiful.

https://tosinadeda.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/resized_piseed-off-harry-meme-generator-how-dare-you-sir-148312.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/N2b71zt.jpg

One small point that i haven't made because it seemed obvious: barring some sort of moderator-level complaint that I have no reason to expect, i have no plans to stop doing this regardless of what this poll returns, so feel free to vote for the lulz or whatever.

Which is not to say I don't give a damn about how the community views or utilizes the project. I do! It's just that there were well over a hundred subscribers to most of each of last year's rolling genre playlists, so a clear plurality of people are finding some benefit or enjoyment in what I'm doing. If you have some sort of serious objection that i haven't addressed already in this thread (above and beyond "you're not doing it right" / 'this contributes to poor aural hygiene" / "you're making it too easy for the norms to learn to like acid house" / "Spotify is evil" / "why didn't you ask me how i FEEL"), I am open to being convinced otherwise.

Forks: Son, we live in a world that has music, and that music has to be organized into playlists. Who's gonna do it? You? You, mattresslessness? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for musicians, and you curse Spotify. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That the royalties issue, while *~~controversial~~*, probably led to more music purchases indirectly. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, leads to more music purchases. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me making those playlists, you need me on ILM. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of music streaming issues. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very playlists that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pair of headphones, and listen. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

Very concerned here that I may be listening to music in the wrong way.

― _Rudipherous_, Friday, February 5, 2016 1:22 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

for while i used to put earplugs in my ears and intently stare at the woofer of my speaker from across the room, i was young and had a lot to learn about listening to music

irl lols at nomar thank u

http://media.giphy.com/media/PRoz09f8gBE1a/giphy.gif

nomA+r

don't call me son. I'm a ROLLING HARDMAN THREAD 2009, and you're under arrest, you son of a bitch.

http://angryczeck.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/a-few-good-men-quotes_288x288.jpg

"COLONEL FORKS - DID YOU ORDER THE ROLLING AFROPOP/AFROBEAT 2015 PLAYLIST???????"

i wouldnt say listening is really a question of depth

or 'wrong' for that matter

it goes in your earholes (generally)

Music fits in all sorts of holes.

You're cool with forks making out with Spotify playlists is what you're saying.

to respond directly to your earlier question: i want to hear more AND i want to hear better. in my experience, juxtaposed music listening both within genres and arbitrarily diverse helps do just that. I just listened to Anthony Braxton's 'Trio and Duet' and Anthony Child's 'Electronic Recordings from Maui Jungle v.1' back to back for no other reason than they fell alphabetically adjacent but they ended up informing each other in ways I couldn't have otherwise arranged or predicted. All revelations are valid. Any approach is meaningful. There is no spoon (feeding).

spoonsclovetofu

if forks and spotify had a baby would it be a spork

Fortify

I want to mention that the new Skunk Anansie album is really great.

https://open.spotify.com/track/6JphhA8BhS1H7U7T8Yqy0o

(Can we get a Spotify playlist for this thread, by the way?)

i dunno if i've shared this consideration on ilx because it makes for easy ridicule but hey, here we are: it seems like the goal of a truly discerning listener, counterintuitive though it might seem, is to learn to find things to enjoy in every sound. Is the purpose of the listener (or even a critic) to explain why a thing is not good? Why a person or many person's expression of self is not valid? Why a thing that has been manufactured to be enjoyable is not enjoyable? Is it preferable to live a life of cynicism and disappointment or to broaden your ability to seek out the best in the art that you engage with rather than the worst? Why not presume that a thing is good until it can be proved otherwise? And who else can prove that you don't like a sound but you? Which is why I've spent hours grappling with music that I don't care for, sometimes to the point of real frustration. Often it doesn't help and all I'm doing is torturing myself. But sometimes exposure provides context and sounds that baffled open up. Classical compositions, noise, 2 tone ska, free jazz... this stuff didn't engage me on first listen but over time, you can start to see where it fits and where it can make sense in your own pantheon.
I mean, there's regular exceptions of course. But even those provide the opportunity to hone your sense of what does not abide. And even the worst song is fascinating in its raw repugnance. It's why trainwreck songs fascinate us.
blah blah blah. i'm procrastinating here.

maybe. not really. sometimes. broaden, i think. seems presumptuous. nobody.

why? well we agree there. i get it if it's dangerous, but otherwise what's the harm? yeah absolutely. presumptuous, sure but worth aspiring to nonetheless imo. damn right.

i agree it is absolutely possible to stumble upon v pleasing & profitable monents through stirring a big pot

that's not really what the playlists are about though, they're modelled after the styles, scenes, sensibilities that are thrashed out on the threads. i just don't know when I'd ever benefit from hearing them abstracted out of the thread

who gets to say what is valid and meaningful. many revelations & approaches are contradictory. part of what makes for a strong aesthetic are its limits and the things it rejects. you can have your all-music buffet, but you won't be able to experience fine dining while yr there

in thread, you get informed recommendation and occasional context. on listening, you get your own experience. Both are important but I'm gonna selfishly pick the latter if i only get one.

we disagree about what constitutes "a strong aesthetic". I think your statement of "who gets to say what is valid and meaningful" (which i agree with obvs) runs counter to the suggestion that I don't get fine dining at the all-you-can-eat bar. as a matter of fact, i DO get fine dining there, almost every day! And it's not really all-music, what I'm counting on is that the much-maligned hivemind of ILX actually has its own strong aesthetic made up of many amateur and professional obsessives in any number of niches. And removed from context, those recommendations sometimes shine or fail on their own merits... even though i can sometimes absolutely tell who recommended something when it pops up in my listening.

i may not be being clear: i am NOT just willy nilly listening to anything. I'm listening to things that people who frequent ILX think are worth listening to. Having done it for over a year, I can tell you with some authority: as a site, we have pretty good taste! I've found hundreds of songs and artists I wouldn't otherwise have heard of solely through ILX recommendation. Some of them have become immensely important to me!

like alphabetically from the past year in the past two months alone:
Thank you ILX for The 1978ers (hip hop), 9 Muses (k-pop), 18 Carat Affair (vaporwave), 45 ACP. (IDM), 47 Soul (dancehall/MENA/hiphop/dabke fusion), A-Wax's new album (hip hop), Abra (electropop), adekunleGOLD (Nigerian singer/songwriter), Adrian Marcel (R&B), Agent Fresco (metal), Agent Sasco (dancehall), Ahleuchistas (jazz? kinda?), Alasdair Roberts (trad folk), Alaska Thunderfuck (WORK), Alessandro Cortini (thick fuzzy curtains of sound), Alexander Abreu and Havana D'Primera (salsa), Alexander Turnquist (shimmery guitar), Amadou Balake (West African folk), Amber (k-pop) etc etc etc

the things that come up in threads are not just recommendations, they're whatever comes up in discussion, things presented w varying degrees of distance or to help make a certain case

the availability of a huge variety of music does not enable different approaches to listening to music, in fact it encourages certain styles more. hence all the shit about kids growing up w the internet relating to music differently, blindness to genre/era or w/e. it doesn't mean they are able to relate to music in the same way as their parents or grandparents. the gulfs in how things are heard are most evident when people are listening to the same thing. i will never hear church music the way my grandma did and no playlist will change that

it IS scary that i'll never get to all of it. it IS frustrating when I hit music that just doesn't land even with my best intentions. it does feel like a waste of time when i get an hour in a row of sounds that go nowhere and leave me nonplussed. but man, the feeling of finding something new everyday never grows old. And today was Anthony Braxton (not my first rodeo there) and Anthony Child (who I've never heard before and this is great!)

i also think the find-good-in-everything ideal of listening is v much at odds with how most music is made, which is more a case of refinement, pefectionism etc.

xp i would say about 3 out of 4 songs that pop up in the genre threads (probably more) are either recommendations or mentioned because they're integral to the direction the field is headed.

i guess i don't disagree with anything in your second para there at all ogmor except that the maximalist approach is accessible to far more people with far less effort and i think that's okay and more often than not CAN lead to a certain genre blindness. not everybody does. but i do know a few parents whose kids are obsessive about yusef lateef or carl perkins or whatever mostly because they can deep dive on their own into the catalogue in a way that would've been impossible when we were growing up. but sure: we're all different monsters and we hear differently and we are doomed to live and die alone. in the meantime:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-0sUuGufmw

that does not preclude attempt-to-find-good-in-everything xp

apols for violent language earlier, was a bit much and there's prob an interesting discussion to be had here

i also think the find-good-in-everything ideal of listening is v much at odds with how most music is made

there's prob an interesting discussion to be had here

You guys will argue about fucking anything huh

On a wider context ILM would be classified as "Open Collaboration"

Open Collaboration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_collaboration
Open collaboration is a pattern of collaboration, innovation, and production.

In a 2009 paper, Riehle et al. define open collaboration as collaboration based on three principles of egalitarianism, meritocracy, and self-organization

open collaboration, anyone can contribute and anyone can freely partake in the fruits of sharing, which are produced by interacting participants who are loosely coordinated.

collaboration that is egalitarian (everyone can join, no principled or artificial barriers to participation exist), meritocratic (decisions and status are merit-based rather than imposed) and self-organizing (processes adapt to people rather than people adapt to pre-defined processes)

Definition of Open Collaboration

http://www.opensym.org/about-us/definition/
OpenSym is a shorthand for International Symposium on Open Collaboration,
OpenSym is the premier research and practitioner conference on open collaboration.

Open collaboration is collaboration that is

egalitarian (everyone can join, no principled or artificial barriers to participation exist),

meritocratic (decisions and status are merit-based rather than imposed) and

self-organizing (processes adapt to people rather than people adapt to pre-defined processes).

ogmor I feel like you're nitpicking just for the sake of the fact that this thread exists at all.

i do think the way you hear can/does change, even when you replay songs to yourself, and those big revelations when something clicks represent a broadening out and a respite from lonesome oblivion

i'm waiting for someone to pop in and point out that we're just rehashing poptimism vs rockism for the gazillionth time so why don't i just jump the gun and do that myself.

also, i <3 u djmartian, you have that unique style

those big revelations when something clicks represent a broadening out and a respite from lonesome oblivion

apols for violent language earlier, was a bit much

wait, you were serious? dag

those big revelations when something clicks represent a broadening out and a respite from lonesome oblivion

beautiful turn of phrase

this thread has expanded my (already ample) respect for forks, admirably rolling w the punches and positively engaging all over the place.

also forks i checked the post-fahey playlist in the name of science & you have a v inferior version of cripple creek on there. this https://open.spotify.com/track/28ybICjkSv7WJQoUMcRBmP is the right one even tho it is incorrectly tagged as being by john fahey

thanks art, that's nice to hear!

Ogmor, i switched them out. damn, that's fine geetar playing.

poptimism vs rockism for the gazillionth time

see also mahayana/therevada (great vehicle/little vehicle)

tale as old as time
song as old as rhyme
linda hamilton and ron perlman

I don't use spotify but I guess Royston Langdon from Spacehog works for them and I am a pretty big Spacehog fan, so.

Glenn, have you met Royston Langdon?

apols for violent language earlier, was a bit much
wait, you were serious? dag

― mookieproof, Friday, 5 February 2016 21:37 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Otm otm otm

Lj this is a low

Forks I have a question
Earlier today the #1 song on the top 77 tracks was there, for a minute
Now it isn't? Is this an IP thing? Why is Spotify being so ephemeral atm

:(

weak moment

pls forgive

plus, if nothing else, ogmor was starting the most interesting discussion in this benighted thread, even if his point was slightly haughty

cld never begrudge an imago

as always, dealing with the shadows in my own play pen, thinking through my own listening rather than being didactic per se

but haughty seems a step up from pretentious, I'll take it

Glenn when I saw Spacehog in the 90s Royston Langdon shook up a bottle of beer and then held it up like it was his dick and sprayed it all over. I hope he doesn't like those sorts of stunts in the office.

trying to find the good in all music seems like a very pointless and undiscerning goal to me. the logical end point is to enjoy everything, to flatten out your own tastes to encompass everyone else's? an aesthetic without hate is incomplete to me, you need to know what you stand against in art (and every other part of life) as well as what you'll go to bat for.

Now it isn't? Is this an IP thing? Why is Spotify being so ephemeral atm

― Worth Taking from Little Kid (Will M.), Saturday, February 6, 2016 8:51 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a prime reason i would never rely on spotify for my principal listening fyi. it's not just incomplete but licensing and roll-out fuckery means that you can never necessarily rely on something being there when you want it.

an aesthetic without hate is incomplete to me, you need to know what you stand against in art

Ok Rollins

Purest lex

I just looked and Realiti (Demo) is still there.

I still use MP3s for things I like and want to access at all times, but Spotify has definitely become my main discovery engine - well that and mixes/podcasts.

Implicit in this thread is a tension between posters who fancy themselves as bringing recommendations to the table and those who are perceived as just skimming off the top. Most posters do both obviously, but it explains why people get huffy about other people not "putting the effort in".

I just made a playlist of the Afropop/Lisbon tracks that made the EOY poll, purely to troll this thread.

As a total side comment/pro tip, the best approach to functionality in Youtube-heavy threads is to turn off "display images" in your preferences while you're browsing that particular thread

― Chikan wa akan de. Zettai akan de. (Noodle Vague), Thursday, February 4, 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

#howIRoll - srsly tho', wonder if that could be a default option to then be switched on if the poster wants to.

I just listened to Anthony Braxton's 'Trio and Duet' and Anthony Child's 'Electronic Recordings from Maui Jungle v.1' back to back for no other reason than they fell alphabetically adjacent but they ended up informing each other in ways I couldn't have otherwise arranged or predicted. All revelations are valid. Any approach is meaningful. There is no spoon (feeding).

You are being spoon-fed by the alphabet.

maybe spotify should sort its streaming music autobiographically like john cusack in high fidelity

we can argue the correct ideology of aesthetic preference all we like, but my decisions are ultimately practical ones. i adopt pan-genre dilettantism because the musical aesthetic philosophy i was raised under, which is generally termed "rockism", is pretty untenable these days. i can't pretend that beck and jack white represent the apex of what music is capable of these days. maybe other people are still able to profess a coherent aesthetic philosophy, and if you can do it, well, go right ahead. but i can't.

trying to find the good in all music seems like a very pointless and undiscerning goal to me. the logical end point is to enjoy everything, to flatten out your own tastes to encompass everyone else's? an aesthetic without hate is incomplete to me, you need to know what you stand against in art (and every other part of life) as well as what you'll go to bat for.

finding the good is not the same as "flattening out your own tastes" &c, that's a false equivalency. an aesthetic without hate is a mature aesthetic that understands something about creativity; you probably won't ever arrive at such an aesthetic, but that's fine too - I still have an irrational hatred of mayonnaise, we've all got our crosses to bear

Lol you pompous, dishonest twat

I hate jazz, for what it's worth, but I don't think that makes me a better listener, nor that learning to appreciate it would render my aesthetic "incomplete". I'm not even sure I believe that's a thing, an incomplete aesthetic, but if it is a thing, I'm pretty sure learning to love things you currently hate is a movement towards more completeness, not less.

Everyone hates shit and articulating that is incredibly important to any sort of critical thought. Trying to enjoy everything is like rendering enjoyment meaningless

Trying to enjoy everything is like rendering enjoyment meaningless

I think there was a time in my life when I would have agreed with this in some visceral, defiant way, but at the moment it seems wildly and profoundly and patently wrong to me.

If I love X things and hate Y other things, you would grant that my love of the Xs is meaningful. And I can move some things from the Y group to the X group, and as long as there's still something left in the Y group, all my X loves are meaningful. But if I move the last thing from Y to X, it invalidates the meaning of all the meaningful loves in X that were meaningful one minute before? Do you really believe that the difference between my "really" enjoying "Delirious" and "not really" enjoying "Delirious" is whether I still hate jazz as I'm listening to it?

I don't believe that.

any schema of taste that requires "hate" to make sense or have some sort of validity is, i would've thought, pretty plainly juvenile

Glenn and JCLC otm.

hate is a strong word haha

Implicit in this thread is a tension between posters who fancy themselves as bringing recommendations to the table and those who are perceived as just skimming off the top. Most posters do both obviously, but it explains why people get huffy about other people not "putting the effort in".

tbh the one rolling thread I start and contribute to every year is full of stuff that i've skimmed off the top from elsewhere, which makes it even harder to draw a line

it's just weird and rigid to think of enjoyment as a zero sum game --- my dislike of idk bland country-pop doesn't free up spare enjoyment units to be spent on a few carly rae jepson songs or destroyer or w/e

this is absurdly basic. leaving aside the thornier issues surrounding enjoyment and end goals of listening to music, everyone listens with a negative awareness. the possibility of excellence requires the possibility of failure. if everything sounds glorious then our critical faculties are not required

man, i've got a LOT to say in response to that line of thinking lex and i will later on but i did want to say right now to will m:
the KING album came out yesterday, so I added the track that was missing on the countdown. That probably reordered your playlist somewhat. Everything is still there.
Spotify does occasionally drop songs from rights issues but i find it's rare and primarily centered on mixtape culture and contractual issues more than anything else (from a layperson's perspective, glenn could speak more about that). The service is exponentially better for retaining content than soundcloud or youtube though.

http://orig09.deviantart.net/f4d6/f/2012/220/0/0/i_love_everything_by_punkichi-d5aeb36.png

I used to derive some sort of pleasure from hating some music but decided I was too old to waste time on that at the ripe old age of 30. But now I find that my enjoyment of all music has been rendered meaningless. Can't believe I've been enjoying music the wrong way all these years

i think i could be characterized as someone who "loves everything" so i find half of this conversation really reductive. critically thinking about anything I react to poorly almost invariably causes me to appreciate it more

i'm off to the pottery studio (to work on, among other things, some Miguel 'Coffee' mugs), but here's a thought that occurred to me in the shower: as much as I enjoy a spirited discussion, the bump I'm most hoping for on this thread is mattress saying that he's started the soundcloud/youtube/what-have-you lists for the bobbins thread. That, more or less, would justify the existence of this thread for me.

To turn this idea around, it implies that if you love everything, you can become a better listener by learning to hate something you currently love. I feel like Ursula Le Guin already basically settled every argument of this form with The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas.