Mainstream rap mea culpa

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OK all my fellow backpackers and whomever else this may pertain to, please keep in mind the following things lest you stray down the path I did a few years ago:

1) There is nothing especially wrong with rhyming about all the neat shit you have and all the hot women you've fucked. What's stupid is saying "oh that's all these MCs talk about nowadays, their chains and their cars and their hos" when the motherfuckin' Sugarhill Gang spent almost the entirety of the first widely-regarded rap hit rhyming about how they had Lincoln Continentals and Cadillacs and had larger penises than Superman. The next time someone says "man what the hell is up with all the corny money-flashing videos, I miss Rakim" I give you my full permission to hit him in the eye. Not hard enough to keep him from watching the video to "Follow the Leader" afterwards, though (as an audio-visual-eye-jammie educational value package). See also: Slick Rick.

2) Fine, so MC Madlyrixx the Underground Space-Rap Assassin is living out of his Subaru Brat and eating reduced-price hot dogs from the "slightly irregular" items bin at Safeway, and it sucks that he isn't hugely recognized and can't afford to buy Steve McQueen's Porsche from Le Mans. But MCs who tailor their shit to a specific underground niche or spit things that the general public can't relate to all that much (average inner-city hip-hop fan in not being intimately familiar with sci-fi anime and skateboarding shocker!) probably realize they aren't going to reach the same people 50 Cent is reaching and are actually not really that torn up about it.

3) BUT. It is pretty ass when you're an MC that raps about how good he is at being an MC and does it better than many other MCs yet isn't all that wealthy and doesn't have videos and rocks 3 year-old FUBU hoody sweats that smell like small-club Newport miasma. Holy fucking shit, get this -- many underground MCs who don't cater specifically to the braniac robot Pharoahe Monch/Allan Ginsberg crossover demographic actually want to get paid and drive awesome Italian sports cars and be seen with super-fine ladies just like those mainstream rap stars you dislike!

4) I have no idea what "underground" means anymore. I joked in City Pages that it might as well apply to any MC who never sold crack (that's the media's problem, not the MCs) but when you have the Chapelle Show guest star/Jay-Z backup/Rahzel-says-Twix-are-tasty Roots, new-funk underground/wants-to-produce-Ludacris RJD2 and ultra-nerd-possibly-hip-hop but maybe something else Anticon all draped under the same "undie" banner something is kind of weird here.

5) If Bill O'Reilly hates you, you must be doing something right.

6) Ass-shaker party rap and abstract jazzbo future beats can coexist in the same record collection. So can gangsta and conscious. For years I've been the kind of person who could love both the Velvet Underground and Van Halen; why I couldn't feel the same way about hip-hop until recently I don't know.

7) No, I have not sold all my indie-rap CDs and 12"s. I'm just gradually liking the mainstream stuff on the same level now.

8) I have said in a few public forums that Jay-Z is not a good MC or things to that effect. As penance, I have been punching myself in the groin repeatedly until I pass out.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:19 (twenty-two years ago)

well, it's about goddamn time.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

in your honor, i am now playing a 50 cent/nine inch nails bootleg.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

oh for fuckssake!

c'mon people is this really necessary? This is the only place I see people spending this much time debating "pop" hiphop as opposed to "conscious/undie/backpacker" bla bla

most people i know happily switch between Black star and Jay-Z and this ongoing agonizing or dispragement of one or the other is getting really tired.

can this topic be dropped now please, or at least discussed in a more interesting way

― H (Heruy), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

you have no idea what a big step this is for nate! he was our go to guy for undie rhetoric! we're out of strawmen now.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Well er that was sort of my way of dropping the topic. (I spent many months here being a stubborn-headed indie-rap stereotype, y'see.)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(sorry Nate, I was about to post something on the Black Star thread and deleted it and then this popped up and drove me over the edge but my ire was more directed towards stuff on there. I apologize for this as it was not directed at you and hope i do not derail your thread intent - even if I'm still unclear as to its necessity.)

x-post - ok i know that but see above

― H (Heruy), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I shared your "Jay-Z ain't so great" fallacy for a long time. But I would say there's value in doing something ridiculous like "I only listen to x kind of [rap, metal, jazz, whatevah]" for periods of time. And that there was something inherently more interesting in the Sugar Hill Gang lying about how many cars they had than about, say, Jay-Z describing the stuff he's actually bought.

Not hatin' on Jay-Z, I got the Blueprint 2.0 and it's great though for a double CD that's a hell of a lot of filler, but it least it doesn't have all the lame-o skits that the Li'l Kim album has (runs to hide from trife

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

sigh, an era has passed

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

much like a kidney stone

(I will still defend El-P to the death, though. That bit on the Weathermen Conspiracy mix CD where he rhymes over the "Gossip Folks" beat = OH DEAR LORD)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

did you really like that? i was suprised by it, frankly. "you mean he's been rhyming all the time like that on purpose??"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I came to this same realization a while ago, after long time gone spent as only backpack appreciator in my pack. The mainstream producers are just fucking awesome now. & I'm speechless waiting for Jigga to drop the summer party anthem, get your damn hands up. El-P's a solid citizen. No contradiction there. Listening to Hot 97 all work-day is making me stupider though.

yeah, I bootlegged the Infesticons at the Knitting Factory. What?

― autovac (autovac), Friday, 20 June 2003 05:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Listing everything we've actually bought is maybe 80% of ILE threads John! If it's good enough for us it's good enough for Hova!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Can we get Jigga to make verses out of an ILE thread then? which one?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I can honestly say I think Jay-Z and El-P are equally talented.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i bought some hiphop yesterday - now i can join in these battles!!

is "afro puffs" by lady of rage considered canonic? everything else on this cheapie threefer compilation i did actually hear of art least once

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

yo sinkah you all up in the hegelian hood with me n my homies get yo kantian ass back where u be comin from

― alext (alext), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

8) I have said in a few public forums that Jay-Z is not a good MC or things to that effect. As penance, I have been punching myself in the
groin repeatedly until I pass out.

-- Nate Patrin (natepatrin550...), June 20th, 2003.

That Dobby character from Harry Potter has inspired masochists all around the world.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I dislike Jay-Z and Jurassic Five equally.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

haha and just in time for my black eyed peas love to start to come full force.

(does trife REALLY like the skits on the lil' kim album?)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a good point that the mainstream shit has gotten better production-wise since 98, 99 or so, so it's easier to like. I bought the streets is watchin 12", and Jay-Z and Rockafeller were still a glint in casey casum's eye, and next to my rawkus 12"s it sounded like shit. For a long time after that I couldn't like Jay-Z. But damn if "Can I Get A" then "Big Pimpin" didn't change that forever.

Also, Nate something you touched on - how boring is 'undie' when it's all "I'm doper than you" "I keep it real" "I educate the youth" the upteenth time around. I'd rather hear someone rapping about plasma screen TVs.

― scott m (mcd), Friday, 20 June 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm still waiting to hear a good Jay-Z song.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I would step up to be that strawman but I've undergone a patrinesque conversion lately myself. but come on, rakim was dope with skillz AND rhymed about money as well as traveling at magnificent speeds around the universe

― Neudonym, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do they do the off-key singing in so many mainstream songs? Surely it's intentional, right? I mean, if Ol' Dirty mufuckin Bastard can sing songs in key...

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

cause off-key singing is SO GANGSTA IT HURTS. it's like you're all at the party loaded and some old song comes on and you all start singing along but you're all too high so you all end up sounding like the international maimed pets choir but who the hell is gonna say anything because you and your friends are the toughest motherfuckers in the history of the world

― Neudonym, Friday, 20 June 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

But that's when you step onto the apartment balcony for some fresh air.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

is "afro puffs" by lady of rage considered canonic?

IT DAMN WELL SHOULD BE.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

dan is ruff and stuff

― Neudonym, Friday, 20 June 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Rough tough cream puff but he is not full of guff.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do they do the off-key singing in so many mainstream songs?

So... whatcha sayin'?

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 20 June 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

If someone's favorite hip-hop albums were El-P's FanDam, CanOx's Cold Vein, Aesop Rock's Labor Days and Enter the Wu - what mainstream should he look for? Also good - Del's No Need For Alarm, some Blackalicious ("Alphabet Aerobics," "Chemical Calisthenics," "Deception"). Atmosphere's godlovesugly got played maybe twice before being dumped, and I prefer the Gourds' version of "Gin and Juice" to Snoop's.

I don't care about that whole indie/undie/whatever stuff, but I don't know where to start with mainstream stuff. I guess Method Man's first album should be on my list.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Saturday, 21 June 2003 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Start out with various solo Wu stuff (Ghostface's Supreme Clientele, Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, anything with the words "Liquid Swords" anywhere in the title). You might like Redman too, though he might be more of a singles artist. And fuck it, go for DMX's The Great Depression too.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 21 June 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"we will never again agree on anything as we agreed on Wu-Tang"

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 21 June 2003 02:36 (twenty-two years ago)

underground/mainstream rap:Wu-Tang::punk/metal:Motorhead

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 21 June 2003 02:46 (twenty-two years ago)

this thread coincides with my black star one!!! i think this will be my summer of actually playin some pleasant underground stuff, sorry nate!!

― trife (simon_tr), Saturday, 21 June 2003 07:13 (twenty-two years ago)

You might like Redman too, though he might be more of a singles artist.

'Whut thee Album' and 'Muddy Waters' are worth the 13 or whatever dollars. Course, are those really pop?

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 21 June 2003 07:16 (twenty-two years ago)

yes!

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 21 June 2003 07:18 (twenty-two years ago)

well then http://www.groovycandies.com/candypics/poprocks2.jpg

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 21 June 2003 07:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i like this thread and all but it also makes me sort of uncomfortable, who is nate talking to?

― trife (simon_tr), Saturday, 21 June 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

HE IS ADDRESSING YOUR CONSCIENCE TRIFE!!

now answer my question abt afro puffs, yo

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 21 June 2003 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)

its aight

― trife (simon_tr), Saturday, 21 June 2003 09:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I am talking to everyone I have embarrassed with my "EW EW CHART RAP EW" ignorance

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 21 June 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Shit, no one ever talks about how this issue is so very less and issue in dancehall. i made my point on the black star thread and no one commented. i'll just sit here sulking and listening to jah mason. boo.

― cybele (cybele), Saturday, 21 June 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Also I am talking to other underground rap heads who dismiss mainstream rap for similarly stupid reasons as mentioned above

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Saturday, 21 June 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I was silent about your point Cybele cuz I really don't know why. Perhaps some of it can be tied to Buju's 'transformation', ie he was so popular that he made consciousness cool again?

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 21 June 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

FrEdDuRsT{{HELLA}} is on it: Answer cybele's question

― d k (d k), Saturday, 21 June 2003 18:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Undie isn't good just for being undie.

I'd say that, IMHO: Deltron > Wu-Tang > El-P > J5 > Ja Rule > Ca$h Money > Talib Kweli. The bling-bling stuff isn't horrible by default, it's just really played out. Same thing with the "I'm a great MC, I don't rap about flossin" stuff, ok fine we get it. But what I really can't stand is the "save the kids" rap (i.e. Nas' "I Can", one of the worst mainstream rap songs I've heard in a long time). That why the indie-rap of Deltron appeals to me, because the guy's rapping about post-apocalyptic society, and I'm a sucker for that kind of weird shit.

― Brian the Snorf, Saturday, 21 June 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - Deltron > Wu-Tang - oh man that's priceless!

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 22 June 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I love the Blount but there's this thing called opinion. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 22 June 2003 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Heiro > Wu makes more sense

(still ain't entirely right, but c'mon)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Sunday, 22 June 2003 00:29 (twenty-two years ago)

if you like 'weird shit' why not just listen to comedy records?

― Josh (Josh), Sunday, 22 June 2003 01:14 (twenty-two years ago)

i think it might be implied that he likes weird shit on rap records,not just weird shit in general

― robin (robin), Sunday, 22 June 2003 01:39 (twenty-two years ago)

or perhaps that he enjoys the opportunity to combine his enthusiasm for weird shit with his enjoyment of rap records

― robin (robin), Sunday, 22 June 2003 01:40 (twenty-two years ago)

And then if you throw in the comedy thing, that's pretty much Del(tron) right there! Everybody wins!

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Sunday, 22 June 2003 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)

there's lots of "conscious" rap that isn't undie and mainstream rappers go back-and-forth to the stuff all the time just like dancehall artists do. the undie thing is i think, with my supa-limited-knowledge of jamaica, rooted in a demo which doesn't have an equiv there. and no i don't mean backpack wearing honkys (tho that doesn't hurt).

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 22 June 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

What said.

― Brian the Snorf, Monday, 23 June 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

What (everybody) said, that is.

― Brian the Snorf, Monday, 23 June 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling you ignorant twat, this is a duffel bag

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Monday, 23 June 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

What about messenger bags. If you combine a messenger bag with the new Def Jux release, are you mixing emo/twee and undie signals?

Twee rap...mmmm.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw some MTV2 show last night where the dorky 120 Minutes guy was interviewing El-P. I dunno what I was expecting, but El-P sounded just like Kevin Smith, it was weird. I guess I expected more of an accent. Martin Scorsese or something.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

good 'conscience' rap that you may have not heard.

if you havent heard cadence of raw produce, i suggest you try him out. the best of what 'conscience' rap has to offer right now. none of that bullshit nas (hardly clever), talib (somehow thinks that rapping about conscience rap makes it conscience rap), or dead prez shit (these guys are boneheads).

cadence - cadence poisons the minds of children

http://www.daybydayent.com/content/releases/cadence_cadence_poisons.shtml

as far as wu-tang, the best stuff coming from them is killarmy. all three lps were great, if you like that kind of gritty sound. also, the solo releases from two of the killarmy members - pr terrorist n 9th prince - were both solid.

def jux. i havent heard anything really solid from def jux since stepfather factory. i think a better substitute is birthwrite records out of chicago.

if nothing else, check out that cadence. shit, im sure it's on slsk.

put your fagdars up!

― faggotry (faggotry), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Anybody listen to Burnt Batch/Pismo? I've got the Produce Aisle LP and really dig it, but haven't heard anything more from/about him.

― oops (Oops), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 01:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw that too. He seemed pretty deadpan, and then when he was talking about his methods behind signing artists he just busted out with this goofy huckster voice and said "hey kid, can ya dance?"

I hope El-P didn't pick out those videos himself because knowing he was into Cat Power would ruin me.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Also I was a little disappointed with the "Stepfather Factory" vid; I was hoping it'd be some washed-out looking 1976 industrial film-esque thing with El-P done up in a wide tie and hornrims and a yellow sportcoat playing pitchman while crudely-animated op-art graphics and charts outline the efficiency of booze-fueled robots.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 01:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I couldn't get into the "Stepfather Factory" vid. I think El-P is one of those artists that I have to hear at ear-bleeding volume, and I didn't want to piss off my neighbors after midnight.

There were some really bad bands/videos on that show. The garage-rockers on the beach was the worst.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Everybody on this thread should go check out Poem-Cees NOW.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 24 June 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

not sure exactly what is meant by conscience rap,but i think saul williams has some really good tracks
also some horrible rock ones with the fucking red hot chili peppers drummer or some shit

― robin (robin), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

there are exactly two good things about rap/hip-hop these days, and they are:

the new mf doom as viktor vaughan 12"

and

s.a smash - smashy trashy

that's about it. oh, and if you are feeling indie guilt for digging on some mainstream MTV/TRL bullshit, be a dear and fuck off with telling other people the way things need to be now that you are over your undie elitism. some people actually remember why they originally turned that shit off to begin with - most hiphop is wack in 2003 for the same reason it was in 1995...

― jason m. (jason m), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

and to clarify - if you start a thread like this one you are thinking about shit too much.

― jason m. (jason m), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I REPEAT: EVERYONE ON THIS THREAD SHOULD CHECK OUT POEM-CEES.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Dan is extremely correct.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

jason, why was 'most hiphop' wack in 95?

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

we have a new go-to guy! YES!

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

(also, none of this is exactly news, Nate, that 2002 mp3cdr you made has a LOT of mainstream as well as undie hip-hop on it, the first 40 trax alternate between them really fucking nicely, and that's what 2 months old now?)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

jason - why is thinking about shit too much a bad thing?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

and what is the reason most hip-hop is wack in 2003/1995?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 20:46 (twenty-two years ago)

james noledge = power

― Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

don't make the flower of music die with your wilting intellectualism

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

and dan, really, stop repping yr brothers band. it's unbecoming and not exactly making me to want to check them out.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Point taken.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

doesn't it seem like every time a genre gets overthough/analyzed too much, it starts to suck? And now that the pace of thought/discourse is sped up, things start to suck sooner?

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

who's the ad wizard that came up with that one?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, should i dress up my ideas in fancy-boy language?

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

real men don't think shocker

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, cuz the only choices are overthinking or not thinking at all.

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

if you can explain the line between either, i will believe you

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

me too!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

wtf would i be doing here if i could explain something like that?

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

that's a thinker!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

where the hell can i get a record by MC Madlyrixx The Underground Space-Rap Assassin?!!! He sounds wonderful.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

you wouldn't like him scott (btw i sort changed my mind about dalek!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

YAY!!! was it the seattle rain? does it make ya feel all doomy?

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

it's fucking GORGEOUS here! no, it was hearing a song on Nate Patrin's 2002 mp3cdr thing, it sounded really good, though i doubt i'd like the album all that much, but still.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

it's too hot! wtf, this is what i left pennsylvania to get away from

that, and pennsylvania dutch crafts

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

it's k-perfect weather out there, which is why I'm glad I have a BIG OFFICE WINDOW to enjoy it with while I hang out here with you losers (note: I love you all)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

where the hell can i get a record by MC Madlyrixx The Underground Space-Rap Assassin?!!! He sounds wonderful.

Actually it's one of those Analog Brothers/Bobby Digital/Scaramanga alter ego things. The face behind the name? You guessed it:

http://hipsterdetritus.blogspot.com/elp1.jpg

― Nate Patrin will never get sick of that picture (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, i thought you hated dalek too, nate! I thought i remembered reading that somewhere on here. or maybe you just hated me at the time for my el-p thing. but things change. i, for one, LIKE the stepfather factory video!!

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I couldn't quite get into Griots 'n' Stuff as a start-finish thing, but I like the track I chose well enough.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

hey skotrok...blow me. is that dumb enough for you, you smarmy hack?

el p

ps: it's "little johnny", not "little jimmy" you fuckin dick.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

thought you'd get a kick outta the fan-letter i got from yur pal. I really do like that video. but that's my fave song of the album too.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn, that's it? Lots of people read that review; almost nobody heard the Sole dis record. I thought he would bring forth hellacious fire/brimstone/etc. Maybe he was hung over.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked Slug's letter more. then again, I like Slug's music more too.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i got like a book from el-p's publicist. it was actually pretty cool.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

letter to the editor and scott seward:

comment on the "tigers in a spotlight"- an El-P review by scott seward. *because of the nature of what i do for a living i do not
normally respond to negative reviews- i accept good and bad and that is the nature of music criticism and life gig.

with that said i'll go onto my point: why do we all have to suffer through reading pot shots by critics (who i'd guess come from a
world of indie rock and experimental electronic criticism) at any hip hop that is "experimental" or seen as heady (and made by white
guys) yet these same characteristics don't seem to evoke the same criticisms when applied to rock or electronic music reviewed by
the same writers (see seward's various and mostly rock/electro reviews of the past)? in his review of el-p's new record "fantastic
damage" seward slams el for making rap too smart and hard to decipher (i guess that what he means as he references using a
thesaurus in regards to this stuff) and to even get down to that point we have to navigate our way through the pretentious territory
of snide, wordy, and less-than-simple-plain-english-striving-to-be-clever prose. i thought it was intentional on the writer's part to make
his point but after perusing other articles he has written this is standard style for him. strong point of hypocrisy on his part- seems he
must feel that music writers are allowed to be complicated and wordy and that rap writers (yes, mcs are writers) are not- they must
be simple and dumbed down (he also states he hates positive sentiment, and loves juvenile and others rappers like this (see past
stories)- who are high on homophobia, misogynistic thoughts and low on mental pondering/stretching). what a sad and repressive
ceiling he puts up for rap artists of all backgrounds. shame, shame! he claims this type of out-there hip hop is boring. would this
writer, back in the day, have slapped the snooze label on afrika bambaataa? public enemy? freestyle fellowship? even herbie
hancock? they all slipped some crazy shit up into the mix and were considered highly experimental (and at the time had their share
of haters too). thank god for all of them and any other artists in any form of music who keep things moving. he says el-p's lyrics are
wack but, as becomes par for the entire article, he never references anything from the actual album to accompany his judgments,
he's more inclined to wank on and on with his own attempts at rhyming.

seward goes on to liken el's beats to clanking chains and buzzing noises that he doesn't see as "soundscapes" like his other writer
cohorts "deathlessly" do (a hint of being a hater based on bring-down-the-critical-darling sentiment?) he again gives no actual
references which can be essential in music reviews. it's fine to not like any part of the record- it's a complicated and involved record
and certainly shares all the acclaim it's gotten with criticisms- but the smarmy manner that this is written and his contradicting views
make it lose credibility. he hacks away at the production sounds and techniques saying he could do it himself (the "i could do this"
argument is the weakest of all in the history of all art criticism!!- come on, my grandmother says that in regards to everything
contained in the whitney and moma combined!) but in a past review of the ohm: early gurus of electronic music, he praises this
music (of a different genre) with much favor despite the fact that according to our writer it's "frog snippets and train whistles" but it's
ok for brainy academics like john cage- just not for hip hop dumb dumbs i guess. again in the paragraph that this is brought up in we
are to wade through his own endless attempts at spitting lyrics on the page. our super-down gully penner than goes on to sum up
el-p's (and his now defunct seminal hip hop group company flow's) fan base as scandinavian ding dongs- ridiculous. company
flow/el-p had and still does have a very large fan base all over the world and especially in nyc with concerts and record cases alike
filled with and by true heads of all ethnicities, head-knodding to every cut. would mr. seward step to dj premiere and lump him into
this? check out premiere's underground series where he showcased company flow. ask chuck d if he's rocking a toe-head mullet with
co-flow on the headphones- yes another fan. i guess bobbitto garcia holds no cred for him either? you can definitely not like what el,
co-flow, and defjux do but get the facts correct on who is buying this stuff and making this music. he slams def jux but interestingly
didn't mention the harlem duo cannibal ox who practically took over hip hop last year or well-liked boston mc mr. lif- both revered
by true heads worldwide. interestingly he only mentioned the white guys on the label and made trite "little dj shadow" references in
the midst of jackoff-verbage like "vomitory voluminousness". during his praise of non-phixion he didn't mention that non-phixion are
on el's record or that ill bill was on the company flow ep last year (did he even know this?).

a line by breakdown of this article's inconsistencies/lack of knowledge and information and depth would be very possible but the
main point to be made is that the review is non-specific. it's so mucked up with flowery wording and stabs at over-the-top lyricism
by the author himself, that it almost doesn't seem like a review of someone else's music at times and more like our writer's own hip
hop 101 lyric notebook. sounds to me like there is a good deal of projection and one too many el-p praise articles got to him so it
was time to lash out- standard fare but at the very least pepper it with facts and actual points as if the record was truly listened to. all
music can be criticized to be certain- including this album- but it seems best if the writer had some knowledge of the genre and
history of the artist he is delving into, the ability to be clear and a more exacting style so that readers can have some clarity about
this product out there that they could potentially drop loot on- instead they are likely to simply get caught up in a murky swamp of
literary flexing and the obvious rubble of chips falling off mr. seward's shoulders.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

the last sentence is fucking beautiful. "Literary Flexing And The Rubble Of Chips" is obviously the title of the book I will never write.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I like "super-down gully penner"! Also he forgot to mention that Elvis Costello is down with Fan Dam if El-P himself is to be believed (and that'd be a pretty fucking weird thing to lie about)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

cannibal ox took over hip-hop?

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

that's a typo, it's supposed to read "toke over hip-hop"

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

sole dis was rapped atrociously.

― faggotry (faggotry), Wednesday, 25 June 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

oh come on, the way he pauses at one point and just goes "LIAR" is great

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:03 (twenty-two years ago)

If I still don't like Jay-Z, do I get to punch Nate Patrin's crotch until he passes out for penance?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

only when I realize the error in my ways, right?

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I present to you, the difference between thinking and over-thinking:
thinking: knowing there's a difference between thinking and over-thinking
over-thinking: trying to pin down that difference

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Jesus I hope you're kidding oops

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

things that make you go hmm

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

when am i not kidding?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:16 (twenty-two years ago)

why do we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Miccio: no, you punch me in the crotch for wanting Fred Durst to die in a mishap involving jello shooters and an insufficiently-berailinged 14th floor hotel balcony.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

berailinged!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I only punch your crotch when I realize MY crime, shmart guy. Don't be there when I realize how great The Blueprint is.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

get a room already!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

use different words please, James

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I am envisioning a really demented variation of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots

Now I am really regretting the whole crotch-punching line. It was supposed to be violence-funny, not smut-funny.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate can pummel when you realize that almost half the songs on Chocolate Starfish are glorious anthems of unparalleled rap-rock majesty.

I don't get into rooms with guys who say "undie rap" unironically.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I meant violence-funny too!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't say "undie rap" unironically! I think it's the most retarded term ever! EVER, I TELL YOU!

I will never like Limp Bizkit because the Undertaker used "Rollin'" as his entrance theme and I do not like the particular professional wrestling stylings of that particular individual.

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 01:00 (twenty-two years ago)

but "Rollin'" was the best rap song of 2000! Sucka!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

[this is where Nate would write something if he had any way of actually reacting to the above statement in a manner approaching coherence, rational thinking and a lack of references to Testor's(tm) brand model adhesive.]

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Instead:

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST MICCIO HELLO "NUTMEG"! "BOMBS OVER BAGHDAD"! "STAN"! "COUNTRY GRAMMAR" EVEN! ARGH ARGH ARGH PUT AWAY THAT TELLTALE PAPER BAG WITH THE WAVY LINES EMANATING FROM THE TOP PLEASE

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 01:13 (twenty-two years ago)

nate you like em now?? also check disgusting sex drums the post where i rep for el ps anticon dis!!! it is atrociously rapped but still a seriously ill concept from a dude whos had too many bad ones

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 02:07 (twenty-two years ago)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 02:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, the man finally justified himself. Forget the MCing, just be a conceptual comedian!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 June 2003 02:14 (twenty-two years ago)

good to know the ned ragget standard for hiphop is still in effect

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I would never change for you, my sweet Trife. You would complain.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 June 2003 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

NEDs HISTORY OF RAP MIXTAPE

1) divine styler - purple delicious saplings of vulnerable soprano ninjas
2) through 14) all tracks from jay-z - the blueprint
15) amg - bitch betta have my money 2001
16) picture of eminem

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 03:09 (twenty-two years ago)

fav recent em joke from the exclusive d12 track on the upcoming dj trife professional mixtape: 'this place is my house / i might as well erase my face with whiteout / cuz yall cant see me like ma$es eyebrows', in stores soon yall reserve copies now!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

You make that tape sound like it's a bad thing!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 26 June 2003 04:31 (twenty-two years ago)

my history of rap mixtape would end around 1990

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 26 June 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

what would be on it !!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

'the message', 'paid in full', something by ice-t, 'express yourself', something off the first de la soul album, 'don't believe the hype'.. hmm maybe i should look into this

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 26 June 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

'microphone fiend' and 'follow the leader' too

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 26 June 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

thats not bad!!! what image would be on the cover

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39027000/jpg/_39027407_abfab-bbc-203index.jpg

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 26 June 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

that is not a fatty girl!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

(i needed a quick response. i'll look for a better cover..)

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 26 June 2003 06:29 (twenty-two years ago)

why dont you ask your beloved jess for one!!

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 26 June 2003 06:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I started liking Em about the same time I realized I don't care about Moby anymore, which was about midway through last year. Before that I was all love-hate. Oddly enough I had this fucked-up dream last night that he died somehow (unsure of the specifics, but it was probably an accident) and I tried calling my mom on the phone about it but got really choked up. Then I just logged on and saw that picture and now I'm like "oh he's alive it was just a bad dream and holy shit that is hilarious".

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 26 June 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

let it be known that 10 minutes after Anthony posted his claim for "Rollin'" and left work he said "SWEET JESUS, I FORGOT ABOUT B.O.B!!!!" OK, "B.O.B." was just the best song of 2000 period, "Country Grammar" MIGHT put up a fight with "Rollin'" but "Rollin'" definitely tops everything on the Marshall Mathers LP.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

no it motherfucking does not

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 26 June 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe not "Drug Ballad"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, yes, it's better than "Drug Ballad." And it may not even be the best song on Chocolate Starfish ("My Way" and "Livin' It Up" place).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

"My Way" is better than "Rollin"

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 June 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a close call.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 26 June 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

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