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FUCK EDITORS

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tips for free weekly editors

** dont cut one sentence that makes perfect sense into three awkward ones, dont mash three short sentences that make perfect sense into one long awkward one!!!

** dont fucking change every instance of 'mc' to 'rapper', people know what the fuck an mc is!!! mc fuckin hammer!!

** dont take words out and put other words in!!!!! it looks like a fucking frankensteins monster of short simple sentences clashing up against long complicated ones BECAUSE YOU TOOK WORDS OUT AND MOVED THEM

** dont take out my local record store disses by name

** dont take out my reference to paul oakenfold!!!! what, youre fucking worried people will thing your shitty weekly is uncool if a reviewer likes paul oakenfold???

*** from my sentence about MOR rap, dont change 'hiphops unapologetic 1975' to 'hiphops unapologetic earlier days' WHAT THE FUCK

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 06:55 (twenty-two years ago)

took out all my exclamation points too!!! what a dickface

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - told ya so!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:00 (twenty-two years ago)

at least they're not adding factual errors to your stuff*


*this may not be true

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

changed 'the ratface leprechaun' to 'that ratface leprechaun', its meant to be a term of endearment not a fucking insult!! eminem said it!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

wait, your rap reviews are just jokes, right?

― athens kids, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

blount ive been waiting MONTHS for them to print this shit!!!! i have other shit backed up im sure theyre busy mangling it too, 'hmm he says here he likes eminem, maybe i should change that to the beastie boys'

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:04 (twenty-two years ago)

trife: you cannot overestimate their stupidity. I told ya to only write for them if you weren't gonna care at all about what you wrote (cuz they will - and did - fuck it up).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:05 (twenty-two years ago)

that said I do think the beans review might stir some shit up

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:05 (twenty-two years ago)

is it really that bad?? i mean besides the 'earlier days' bullshit >: ( which makes no fucking sense, blount you saw what i wrote i emailed you that bone review like a month ago!!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i think they put it under daniel johnson to call my mental state into question

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:06 (twenty-two years ago)

since when was the point of editing to make things read worse and put your own bullshit agenda into it?!!!?!!??

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:07 (twenty-two years ago)

they fuck up everybody's stuff - ask henry owings. flagpole incompetence is part of why chunklet exists.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

how am i going to fufill my dreams of writing for vibe and murder dog if flagpole fucks me over and no one else wants me to write for them : (

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:09 (twenty-two years ago)

"since when was the point of editing to make things read worse and put your own bullshit agenda into it?!!!?!!??"

IT'S WHAT WE LIVE FOR!!

― editor s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:10 (twenty-two years ago)

you mock my pain

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:10 (twenty-two years ago)

no it's not bad - I could tell it'd been fucked with, too many dumb down signifiers, hedged bets: stuff you'd never do - but I do think the point of the beans review will get thru maybe, or at least prompt some discussion, even if it's just indie elitist (redundancy alert) snickering. don't even dream of them thinking of printing anything negative about anyone that might ever advertise with them though.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:12 (twenty-two years ago)

trife - I feel your pain (har har clinton har har) but I could point you to puh-lenty of other writers who've been fuckt over by flagpole in precisely the same way (literally every other writer I've known who's written for them). puh-lenty of musicians too.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:13 (twenty-two years ago)

what should i do then!!

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(i was snapping at mark s re painmocking)

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:15 (twenty-two years ago)

also my other reviews werent edited as horribly, some stupid changes but nothing this weird, its like they left the basic words but ruined the entire flow!!!! i was mad when my biker boyz soundtrack review got rejected because apparently biker boyz 'sucked'

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:16 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck this im gonna go to bed, james thanlks for tellin me to keep my head up even after i drunkenly warned you on aim :-) and FUCK ATHENS AS A TOWN AS A SCENE AS A FUCKIN CREW

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:23 (twenty-two years ago)

hey i cd abuse my moderator privs to edit yr snapping into love!!

seriously trife you will probably never quite escape from this, *whoever* you are writing for — at this stage yr only real recourse may be to walk (i only write for places which will let me see galleys of a v.close-to-final edit: i'm not particularly precious abt my deathless prose, and actually i sometimes prefer what's been introduced via rewrite or misunderstanding and go with it, but yes, i still prefer my name to be appended to something non-lame that i more or less agree with)

(in my review of THE FILTH AND THE FURY they cut something at the last minute — to save a line — and left me describing Jethro Tull as a DINOSAUR grrrrr!! I *hate* Jethro Tull but dinosaurs are fab)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:23 (twenty-two years ago)

ok mark :-) !!! the dinosaur thign still isnt as bad as changing 1975 to 'hiphops earlier days' grrrr

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

maaaaybe complain to the editor, but to honest that's more likely to get you booted than to work. some of us turned stuff right before or right after deadline (however late we could get away with) thinking the less time they had to 'edit' it the less time they had to fuck it up (usually worked). my advice would be to get close to margaret (dowdy red-headed woman) - she's the real seat of power in that office and she's the one who really determines what goes in/stays in/etc., she's also aware the paper sucks. avoid vulgarities though (ask henry owings).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

or you could just prank them, they'll blame me anyway.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah they changed 'sell the fuck out' to 'sell out'

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:27 (twenty-two years ago)

that's marg's doing prob.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway i meant what should i do about my music writing dreamzs if flagpole is chumping me and everyone else ignore/hates me!!!!!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

fuck flagpole and the editor HERE COMES THE PREDATOR

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Did they pay you trife?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

ive been w them sijnce janu 03 and they NEVER pay me even though they say they will, some shit about not being able to write checks??!?!!?

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:31 (twenty-two years ago)

THEN WALK!! also take them to small claims court, the fuckers

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

if we were meant to write for mags for free, god wouldn't have invented the internet

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

ok logically that doesn't work but you know what i'm saying

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Does America have anything as socialistic as the small claims court?

Trife I think I still owe you a CD or two!

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

TAKE THEM TO SMALL CLAIMS COURT - no joke. and publicise the hell out of it - fliers everywhere.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

also, since you're a freelancer remind them of that Supreme Court decision stating they can't put your shit up on the website after six months (???) without your permission (you haven't signed anything have you?).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:39 (twenty-two years ago)

im sorry thats stupid i i dont wnt to fuck with them just wanted to write about music : (

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, sad but true - you can't write for them if you're gonna care about what you write.

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:44 (twenty-two years ago)

this is anticon's revenge ...
no, seriously, fuck'em and find someone else to write for. i've been there and there's always some other magazine thats bigger or better. just remember to drop a few lines (but not too many!) about the amateurishness of flagpole to whatever new mag you're ending up at. they love that kind of shit.

― Jay K (Jay K), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:46 (twenty-two years ago)

theyt only said they pay me five dollars for a review anywqay!!!!!!

― trife (simon_tr), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:48 (twenty-two years ago)

hence SMALL CLAIMS court

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

look mang joo knife they ok joo know whay

― chuy_loco (chuy_loco), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i've once written for 20$ a review, but five???? WTF??? Get your ass outta there! the 20$ mag didn't even fuck up my reviews.

― Jay K (Jay K), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:51 (twenty-two years ago)

write for spizzazz

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 07:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Something else to add to Trife's list: don't edit a 1000 word article tracing an artist's last 10 years of work down to 500 by removing the last 500 words. Cos then it looks as if the artist hasn't done anything since 1997. Plus, the new record they're actually promoting doesn't even get mentioned.

Unbelievable.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

they always do this... one particular piece of advice to editors: NEVER FUCKING INTRODUCE WORDS LIKE "SUFFERATION" INTO MY WORK EVER!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 10:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I *did* 'fuck an editor' once. I never called her again though, and I also didn't get any more assignments.

― dave q, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I *did* 'fuck an editor' once. I never called her again though, and I also didn't get any more assignments.
Sounds like you've got a legitimate sexual harrassment claim there.

I am currently (also constantly) at war with my, uh, superior here. He's not my editor, but sort of thinks he is, as he is the chief music writer or whatever. But he doesn't do any editing, and he never sees my copy until he reads it in print (the actual editor, I like, he's a nice guy).
But my, uh, supervisor just asked me when the hell am I going to write reviews again, since I've done only two or three since May. I said that I don't get anything to review. Because all the promos get sent to him and all he passes on to me are Klezmer reissues and sub-indie folk releases. And I've reviewed those, and whatever other releases he deems "NEED" to be reviewed the same week that he's reviewing something else that "NEEDS" to be reviewed. I've essentially been his bitch for two years now, and fuckit. I'm three times the writer he'll ever be (and that's not saying much, but, y'know, I AM competent, I've been doing this for 6 years) and I deserve at least the pretense of respect.

Howev, he is in tight with The Brass 'round here, so there isn't even anyone I could talk to about this and sort of say "hey, this guy is being a fuckwad. I still want to write for your paper [=I like the way your cheques clear], but this guy is making it impossible."

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

dude, "sufferation" is a GREAT word

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

also, since you're a freelancer remind them of that Supreme Court decision stating they can't put your shit up on the website after six months (???)

Tasini v. New York Times.

― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

This is where I say I'm glad Matos is one of my editors. Every change he runs by me by pointing out how something is weak or poorly phrased and can be improved -- in otherwards, he's actually constructive! -- and then trusts in me to make those changes before adding a small finishing touch here and there as needed. So yay him!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Best editors I have ever worked with: Melissa Maerz, Ira Robbins, Heather Willis

Editors that I haven't worked with enough, but who have treated me very well: Matos, Chuck Eddy

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

sigh

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

sufferation is a great word when used by jamaicans w/ dreads, not pseudo-intellectual white-boy dancehall enthusiasts... plus it was used in a piece about the wild bunch who didn't do a lot of suffering...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

It sounds like it could be used in "Eve of Destruction"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Gregory Hines could say it when he's chasing her!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

so, um, where can we see this review in its altered state?

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Eth, you can always ask your editor to run any changes by you first - if you respond to emails quickly, some editors won't mind this, and when there's a "change this to this"/"OK I'll change it but try my revision instead of yours" exchange it often solves what the editor sees as a problem without you having to see your name on a piece of shit. NB it sounds like your editor is one of those who changes things just so he/she can feel like an editor, though, in which case this approach is pointless

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to have to deal with this with one of my old editors, who was then new and in the shadow of the guy who had built up the mag from nothing and obviously feeling like he had to prove himself to the stable of snarly writers he had inherited.
He had put one of his jokes into one of my things, and since I like to think that I'm pretty good at putting jokes into things, I was quite distraught by the insertion of non-HM humour into my piece. So I threatened to quit, and he said, "okay. do you know how many people are willing to suck my dick to do what you do?"

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

if any editors are reading this i love you all and you should give me work

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes! Editors should always run the final by you for approval.

I'd also like to throw a "Yay" at Keith Harris. That is all.

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

you could always finish up that stranded piece on reanimation for stylus, trife. not that we need something for next week or anything.

― toddlburns, Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

J0hn - the "could ya maybe run things by me first" gambit has been attempted many times, to no avail

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

and really trife if you're not looking for money you really should write for stylus, spizzazz, freaky trigger, whatever - the readership's gonna be bigger and smarter (potentially deffer even).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck is grate, every fudge word is a sonar pulse that he has special receptors for. I already write differently, taking out stuff like "seems like to me" and "pretty much" &tc.

The only trouble I had was realizing I actually had a specific assignment :(

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

That is pretty cool but what if you're honestly ambivalent about something?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

ride the snake

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, it seems to me that's pretty much a different case. :)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Astounding!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

writing for the voice makes the stuff i wrote prior to writing for the voice read like a different person

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

You still write the same around here, though, don't you? Or not?

trife I really hope "rat-faced leprechaun" was referring to Jermaine Dupri.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

ha tracer check out twee emoticon using jess from august 2001! to everything, turn turn turn

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

tracer: yup!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

An editor once inserted the phrase, "But who cares, 'cuz it rocks!" at then end of a Korn review I wrote.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

(at THE end, of course. [...who cares, 'cuz that post rocked!])

― Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

An editor once inserted the phrase, "But who cares, 'cuz it rocks!" at the end of a Korn review I wrote.

Whoa. Was it a negative review?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I hesitate linking the other review cuz it was really fuckt with, it's a bit old hat for ilx, and it might stir up a nest of corny indie fuxxx (which is the point - this is for an alt-weakly in athens, where hipster record stores pride themselves on not stocking rap - but outta that context and into this I hesitate). (not hard to find following that other link though).

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

If I remember, I was trying to make the slightly complex point that even though the album would be pretty irritating to most ears, it would still please the kids who scrawl "Korn rocks!" in the AOL chat rooms (i.e., it was a success on the terms of the band and its fans). (This was before Korn got huge; they were still kind of a niche skater freak-rock band.) But all that got removed, in favor of "Who cares, 'cuz it rocks!"

The guy was a really poor editor.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:04 (twenty-two years ago)

the review really does read like trife's flow has been fucked -- like standerd alt-write dropped inna middle of his bing-bam idea-rattle.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

trife you might wanna play the "listen you amateur fuck - I wrote for pitchfork! thas right - PITCHFORK!", it might work (in athens)

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Most editors here tell you what changes they want and let you get on with making them, so at least you learn how to do it. It's assumed that you will develop the skill of editing yourself as you go along.

I am very, very lucky in that 1) 95 per cent of the time, my first draft is what runs and 2) I'm rarely at odds with editors because of anything I write, or changes they want me to make. But British magazines are a bit more free-rein than American ones as a whole and it would be interesting to have to deal with one of those Vogue by jury rewrites.

(BTW if Matos shows up to collect his props my friend C rang tonight and says yes you do know her you were hanging a bit at Mpls lifter puller shows and sends props as well)

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"trife you might wanna play the "listen you amateur fuck - I wrote for pitchfork! thas right - PITCHFORK!", it might work (in athens)"
that prompted me to go to pitchfork and check out your reviews trife. and i must say, i shed tears of laughter at your eminem review. thanks.

― Felcher (Felcher), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

(thanks Suzy, tell her hi as well.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

the review looks fine and quite ethanish, you can't always get what you want, live and learn etc.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I have found Maerz to be very helpful and constructive (and I should start pitching stuff to her again, dammit), and Matos has been great so far (though I do sort of wish he'd noticed how many bloody times I used the word 'electro' in a recent DJ Shadow review). I figure you're in pretty good shape if the worst problem you have is "they can't always find space".

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 16 July 2003 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

new complaint, fresh today. My lead was for shit: "Like his music, So-And-So's current tour reflects a can-do, roll-with-the-punches attidute just like his music."
Okay, I cop to shitty not paying attention, but at least TWO other sets of eyes went over my piece before it hit the page. Fuck fuck fuck. I mean, it's my screw-up, but at least ONE of them should have caught it.
Maybe I've come to rely too much on editors, or maybe they've just come to assume (based on my all-around brilliance) that everything I do is perfect and don't bother with my copy when there are other writers who do need more of what one of my eds calls "massaging."
Anyway, boo to all three of us for being lazy.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

B-b-but Horace, you still wrote 'can-do, roll-with the punches' and nobody did anything about that, either ;).

― suzy (suzy), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but I was being jocular there.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm still embarrassed about calling Wake Up on Fire (local B-more crust-metal band) "firey" in a review. Somehow that one got in.

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

That said, Bret McCabe (B-more City Paper) is a really decent editor. But none of youse should write for him because I'm from Baltimore and you're (probably) not. It bothers me when I lose writing jobs to freelancers from other cities, and it's what's kept me from looking for work at alt-weeklies in other cities. Is there any sort of etiquette on this? Does everyone else write for papers in other cities? (I haven't been doing it for very long; this sort of thing is probably common knowledge, but humor me.)

― Tom Breihan (Tom Breihan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously tho, I think that sucks too. Weeklies, you'd think, would have an imperative to be as local as possible.
I don't know. The worst thing is when they hire an out-of-towner and he/she blows, but is a friend of the ed or something. This happened.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know, Tom, but I was pretty pissed when I briefly worked with my local free weekly (before they went bankrupt) and I said something about how their shitty music column wasn't that great and how I thought it was weird that it never talked about local music, and they said, "Oh, we buy that out of syndication. He lives in like Portland or somewhere," which meant that they were actually PAYING someone to write about boring shit like Grandaddy when I would have done a 200% better job and talked about local music too FOR FREE. I would have brought that up eventually, but like I said, they went bankrupt a couple of months after I started working there.

― NA. (Nick A.), Thursday, 17 July 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd also like to throw a "Yay" at Keith Harris. That is all.

(apologies in advance, but...)

You mean this guy?

http://www.henderson-management.co.uk/img3.jpg

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

WHO? PETE TOWNSEND??

― joan vich (joan vich), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

What is that?! Needless to say, I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

Speaking of local music...there just isn't enough coverage of fringe local bands in weeklies. One of the reasons I love City Pages, btw!

I'm still not against approaching pubs out of town. We want to write, right? Pardon my corniness there...If you're in town, pitch more stories relating to your area.

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

if anything there's too much coverage of "fringe" local bands in free weeklies

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

oh god fuck them, the pricks.


Actually more than editors, fuck you, specifically to whoever the marketing clown who commissions me work is, I cancelled a night out last week to go and collect a fucking shite indie cd which I then listened to for some reason feeling miserable all the while, I then reviewed it and took a good 2 hours trying to not just pan it outright with ott invective, and then this week it's not been used in the fucking rag at all. And every time I propose a story, I think she thinks I am making up the artist or perhaps she's so used to dealing with the knobs that write for the mag that she thinks I'm just desperate to get joe man of the people soulful delights name in print. Yeah obviously there's no press interest in the Rapture or Dizzee Rascal. Of course not, I fucking saw Dizzee down the pub last night playing folk covers.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.

Christ.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously does anyone else work for a publication where the people commissioning the stories know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about music?

I mean I swear she knows nothing, I'm not kidding, nothing! It's like trying to pitch a story about techno to my fucking grandma.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

You're not accidently proposing stories to the AARP newsletter again are you?

― NA. (Nick A.), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see it in many. Where else will they receive coverage? It helps build their fan base. It annoys me when every pub runs a review of, say, the new Liz Phair or Steven Malkmus record.

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!

I get to work under a guy who does it purely for the ego. "It's just a hobby," he says whenever I ask him to please be a little more professional or whatever. He actually tells publicists that I'm going to review something or interview someone before even telling me. And then he tells me I have a bad attitude if I say that I can't interview somebody on five minutes notice for the fifth time this month.

I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!I AM NOT MONTEL WILLIAMS!

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.americanatickets.com/tv/montel.gif
Neither am I.

― Montel Williams (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, the right answer is:
http://www.lawandorder-fr.com/photos/svu/thumbs/belzer01.jpg

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

try again, horace.

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.zap2it.com/ltvimages/images/people/50-80/b/richardbelzer80.jpg

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 17 July 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no point writing for free weeklies if you don't control the power relationship with the editor. The whole point of free weeklies is to give writers a free ride creatively (hence the "free" in "free weeklies", I thought?!?), because the editors can't provide a good incentive to make you stay if they fuck you over.

This is prob. why so much of the writing in free weeklies is pretty bad though... I mean, everyone but *us* needs editors, right?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 19 July 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to be one but I'm not an organiser at all. I suspect this is the general problem.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 19 July 2003 11:05 (twenty-two years ago)

So who does everyone write for, anyway? at least those publications you wish to mention...

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Saturday, 19 July 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Mostly the All Music Guide but also Careless Talk Costs Lives, Fake Jazz and now, here and there, the Seattle Weekly -- also The Broken Face now that I think about it. Then there's Freaky Trigger, god bless it!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 19 July 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...
There are writers who editors like, and those they’d bet their careers on. How can you be that writer who the editor will call on every time she needs an important assignment to be done? Are you a hot favorite or a pass-on-for-another-freelancer who keeps querying but receives no response? Here are the qualities that will endear you to an editor.

1. Giving more than you promise
When an editor asks for two samples, give her three. If she trusts you with an assignment, don’t wait for the final deadline, but send it in a day in advance. If she’s asked you to provide notes, make sure you give her everything she needs so that she doesn’t have to ask for anything more. If you make an editor’s job easier, she’ll love you for it. And she’ll be willing to trust you again with more assignments.

2. Constantly coming up with fresh slants
There may not be too many new topics (unless you’re writing about technology; then you just can’t complain), but there can always be new slants. An editor likes writers who can reduce her brainwork, and make her look good in front of her superiors by coming up consistently with great ideas.

3. Having all the answers
It’s important to know about your subject. That’s why so many well-paid writers advise you to specialize. So, if an editor calls you to discuss your query, and poses follow-up questions, you better have the answers. Because an editor’s never going to trust you with an assignment unless she’s sure you know what you’re doing. And not having answers to her questions is a sure-shot sign that you don’t.

4. Coming up with clever titles, and great sidebars
The most important thing I’ve learnt so far is to visualize your article. See how it appears on the page. Granted, it’s usually not going to come out like you’d imagined it, but for a minute forget that you’re a writer, and think like a designer. See the beautiful fonts and the shaded box on the side? That’s how the editor sees your article. Now it’s your job to bring that visual to life with your words.

5. Understanding the core audience of the magazine
If you’re writing for a magazine for home PC users, your editor’s not going to appreciate ideas on network security, however wonderful they may be. Similarly, when writing for a small business owner, you’d want to treat that person as a little smarter, even if he might have the same knowledge base as that of a home user. His computing decisions are more important. That’s why you should always be familiar with the reader’s knowledge level. That’ll help you make the distinction between good ideas, and great ones.

― Mridu Khullar, Friday, 18 November 2005 15:30 (twenty years ago)

got that trife?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 18 November 2005 15:35 (twenty years ago)

#4 is especially OTM because it's so often overlooked.

As for this: "When an editor asks for two samples, give her three," I can't speak for editors at large, but don't do that for me. I've got enough to read without an extra sample. The extra one means you either couldn't make up your mind or you don't have any two that alone will sell your writing.

― JC-L (JC-L), Friday, 18 November 2005 15:36 (twenty years ago)

haha i do have to say that there's no way i would have employed 2003-era trife

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 November 2005 15:40 (twenty years ago)

I don't think two samples is ever enough; how can you get an idea of writer's capable of with just two samples? Honestly, the more the better, up to a point (as long as they're not in some big expensive binder that's trying to impress me but, believe me, won't, especially when I take a few samples out then toss the binder.) I'm not gonna read them all, but I'll *skim* them. Two samples tells me very little.

Most of that advice makes pretty good sense, actually. (And I say that as somebody who, early on, used to get pissed when Spin editors changed commas to semicolons. Though later, they did stupider stuff.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 15:45 (twenty years ago)

I don't know. That makes sense, but I also want someone who's going to be easy to work with. Someone whose not following pitch guidelines probably isn't going to follow submission guidelines and is probably going to bug me about changes and when it's running and all that. It's not like I'd get mad or reject someone out of hand for including extra samples, but I just don't think it's wise to start off by ignoring the request of the person you're hoping to work with.

Of course, maybe that's why I'm not a brilliant pitch-maker... :)

― JC-L (JC-L), Friday, 18 November 2005 16:21 (twenty years ago)

In my experience, editors want 7-10 samples, I try to stick to that range.

Publications I write for:

Baltimore City Paper
Orlando Weekly
Grooves Magazine
Signal-to-Noise Magazine
Miami New Times
Pitch Weekly
Creative Loafing Atlanta
Staticmultimedia

I don’t think there’s any harm in non-local writers writing for alt-weeklies as long as they’re good; it’s important to cover ye olde local scene though. I remember back when the Baltimore City Paper didn’t do anywhere near as much of this as they do now – the volume of venom from local hipster musicians was incredible.

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Friday, 18 November 2005 16:48 (twenty years ago)

Well, I never tell anybody how many samples I'd want, either. I want to see how many *they* think they should send. If they ask me how many, I kind of consider that an initial mark against them, probably, to be honest. I mean, take the initiative for crissakes! Don't make me do your thinking for you! Right, I want writers who'll make my life easier. So if they ask, I say, "send however many will convince me I should assign you something," and leave it at that. And if they ask me how to pitch a story, I say "pitch in a way that will convince me I should assign it to you." Then it's up to them, as it should be.

― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

> the volume of venom from local hipster musicians was incredible.<

All the more reason NOT to do too much local coverage. (I mean, right, my job is to provide publicity for local hipster musicians.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)

I mean, we do review local bands plenty as part of the mix, and it would be wrong if we didn't. But scene boosterism for its own sake is the ultimate dud of all duds, and always has been, since forever.

― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

In my experience, editors want 7-10 samples

Eep. I'm learning something here.

I never give too specific of pitch guidelines either, so I'm not sure why it bugged me by the suggestion that you should give more samples than requested. I think I just don't like it that someone else assumes they know what I need. Although this thread is pointing out that maybe they do!

― JC-L (JC-L), Friday, 18 November 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

As a marginally talented hipster local musician and an editor, I'm torn on this issue. Good thing local hipsters don't make video games.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 18 November 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

So if they ask, I say, "send however many will convince me I should assign you something," and leave it at that. And if they ask me how to pitch a story, I say "pitch in a way that will convince me I should assign it to you."

Jeezus.

> the volume of venom from local hipster musicians was incredible.<
All the more reason NOT to do too much local coverage. (I mean, right, my job is to provide publicity for local hipster musicians.)

Did work for a local daily newspaper for years. It was intensely local, sometimes to self-destruction, and the hometown artists had grown accustomed to pattycake treatment. After a couple of weeks, every Monday morning the assistant managing editor for features would be in a really foul mood because he had to answer phone calls from them after I'd slaughtered some hometown favorite over the weekend. The best moment was when a bunch of them brought in a signed petition to have me fired. The griping in the letters section actually seemed to stimulate more readers into looking at the section, which had been one of the most ignored in polls judging aimed at rating what people turned to (sports, the comics and the horoscope always won). If they'd had a sex columnist or someone who told bathroom jokes, that probably would have been first.

― George the Animal Steele, Friday, 18 November 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)

7 to 10 is a bit much. I don't have time to wade through all that. I usually like three or four, but from different sources so that I can tell whether the writing reflects the writer's talent or the editors'.

Mridu's advice is good, particularly the bit about fresh slants.

― s>c>, Friday, 18 November 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

I thought this was going to be about...

http://karma2.karmadownload.com/images/albums/SKCD77_pic.jpg

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

I thought it was about the editors of Fuck magazine.

― Edward III (edward iii), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

I thought this thread was about someone who wanted to fuck editors :(

― Whiney G. Weingarten (whineyg), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

That thread title could use an editor.

― Edward III (edward iii), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

i'd like to see several more of trife's clips before deciding whether to read this thread.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

I mean, we do review local bands plenty as part of the mix, and it would be wrong if we didn't. But scene boosterism for its own sake is the ultimate dud of all duds, and always has been, since forever.

i have the angry emails to dispute this as my intent in covering local music.

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)

xpost to george: are you familiar with the work of 3D C0ndran? I grew up reading his clips in the Mercury and then the Reading Eagle/Times (R.I.P.) That's your beat kind of, wasn't it?

I never understand why the weekend section focused so much on Anthracite entertainment; it always seem to enforce racialized fears that get so much play in Berks Co. as it is.

w/r/t local coverage in Philly: there's basically a one man monopoly on local band coverage in our weeklies and then there's Philebrity. As someone who actually lives here and doesn't carpetbag from NYC, it's amazing how detached and disillusioned coverage has been of Philly bands generally speaking. Maybe it's for the best; if you've waited on bands as customers, then it's probably better to avoid ever writing about them, right?

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 18 November 2005 18:58 (twenty years ago)

well, you just cant become friends with musicians. in my experience this is no bad thing, in the main.

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 November 2005 19:01 (twenty years ago)

xpost to george: are you familiar with the work of 3D C0ndran? I grew up reading his clips in the Mercury and then the Reading Eagle/Times (R.I.P.) That's your beat kind of, wasn't it?

Yeah. I worked for the Allentown Morning Call in the Lehigh Valley, straight east from Berks and up the northeast extension from Philly. Went to college in Reading and the LV and there wasn't a lot of difference between the two. Anyway, after I left the Call, the music editor used some of Condran's free-lance reviews to help fill the hole. Don't remember seeing a lot but I wasn't paying much attention so I'm sure some stuff escaped me.

The Call was really into the local heevahava scene. It was what xhuxk referred to as local boosterism run amok. It had been that way for years. Everyone was totally into hagiography so this was circumvented by starting a new feature called "Nightclubbing," a weekly column that published satirical reviews of the locals in their watering holes alongside similarly voiced reviews of whatever semi-bigshots were at the Fairgrounds or in the Stabler Arena.

― George the Animal Steele, Friday, 18 November 2005 19:12 (twenty years ago)

well, you just cant become friends with musicians. in my experience this is no bad thing, in the main.

-- strongo hulkington's ghost (wt...) (webmail), November 18th, 2005 7:01 PM. (dubplatestyle) (link)

Yeah, it's weird. With the exception of the ex-Man Man guys, that's pretty easy to maintain, and as someone who's had peripheral experience with Philadelphia, you can understand why. Search Marah and knifepoint and you may find some interesting results.
xpost

When it comes to local Philly weeklies, it seems their predisposed to running the same people's pieces (see Philly Weekly for instance) and not welcome other writers at all, as though it were an affront to the editorial sensibility of the paper. Is this pretty common?

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 18 November 2005 19:24 (twenty years ago)

Local coverage is my bread and butter these days and I find it pretty rewarding, because you can actually see the direct impact of what you write (as upposed to maybe changing a dozen people's minds about a record that thousands/millions already have their own ideas about). And in my experience, if you know the scene well enough to cherry pick the stuff worthy of coverage, then you don't have to resort to scene boosterism for its own sake. And even if I'm not hanging out with any artists like old pals, it is good to network and build relationships, if for nothing else than people are more likely to give me their CDs and I don't have to track down the one store that sells them. If anything, it's the fact that I blog about this stuff that seems to create conflicts, because I'm more honest and frank there. So it doesn't matter if I just wrote an extremely positive 1000-word piece about someone, if I make a little negative comment on the internet, suddenly their manager is all pissed at me. But eh, that's a learning experience.

So far I have no editing horror stories to report from working for Strongo or his predecessor!

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 18 November 2005 19:40 (twenty years ago)

as upposed to

Hello editors!

― Al (sitcom), Friday, 18 November 2005 19:42 (twenty years ago)

So it doesn't matter if I just wrote an extremely positive 1000-word piece about someone, if I make a little negative comment on the internet, suddenly their manager is all pissed at me. But eh, that's a learning experience.

Damn Technorati!

― blackmail.is.my.life (blackmail.is.my.life), Friday, 18 November 2005 20:19 (twenty years ago)

But scene boosterism for its own sake is the ultimate dud of all duds, and always has been, since forever.

Agreed, Chuck ... on the flip side, though, scene-bitching is just as bad. Man-in-the-scene iconoclasm just doesn't have much value or shelf-life anyway you try it ... and that's all I'll say relative to my past experience.

― Chris O., Friday, 18 November 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

Al, are you Tony Ware or Craig Smith?

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Friday, 18 November 2005 20:47 (twenty years ago)

i can confirm he is not.

― strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 November 2005 20:48 (twenty years ago)

Man-in-the-scene iconoclasm just doesn't have much value or shelf-life anyway you try it ...

Depends on the execution. For the operation, it was the most read and anticipated section of the weekend music news.

― George the Animal Steele, Friday, 18 November 2005 21:13 (twenty years ago)

I think I've figured out who Al is, by mere process of elimination. Dude, your stuff is everywhere and you always manage to kick ass and your first initial is M.

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

and the only album on your 2004 Top Ten list I've heard is Uh Huh Her

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:21 (twenty years ago)

occam's razor, dude

― 'Twan (miccio), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:23 (twenty years ago)

ray al had like 28 bylines in the bawlmer city paper last week so it should be easy to figure out. jess if you ever need one of those 'here's a list of some bullshit' things like xhuxkx and matos do sorta lemme know i can whip it up and i will do it for fifteen dollars.

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:37 (twenty years ago)

the writers who bitch about editors are almost always the least talented

― shookout (shookout), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

as if

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:39 (twenty years ago)

blount isn't a writer

― 'Twan (miccio), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:48 (twenty years ago)

i thought i told you before, i'm a rubber not a writer

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:50 (twenty years ago)

OH MY GOD A RUBBER

― 'Twan (miccio), Friday, 18 November 2005 21:51 (twenty years ago)

My personal beef with my editor comes from the need to try to explain EVERY goddamned reference or name with a fucking paragraph, and the impulse to edit things into "concept" pieces. Sometimes I just can't use the local bands to prove some point about the larger industry, y'know? I know those are the columns he wants, but it'd be easier if we had more than, say, 10 decent local active bands... (Oh, and on scenesterism: I'm explicitly directed to write about local stuff, and everything has to have a local angle, while still somehow writing about ALL of the music industry.)

On the other hand, I edit the music reviews on and off, and that's where if I say that I want 300 goddamned words, I want 300 goddamned words. People seem to think that this is something that I'll be pleased to get, 400 extra words on some bland album that I have to cut out anyway. And would it kill them to make a declarative statement that doesn't have "possibly" or "one of the" in it?

And that's leaving aside the hassle of a publisher who cuts the pages randomly and has no interest in funding editorial work at all. ("Yeah, I know that I promised you $25 for your review, Freelancer, but the publisher doesn't cut a check until he runs it, and he's cut the reviews page the last three months. I know it's a dumb policy. No, I can't help you out. Sure, I've got more albums for you to look at, but most of them are 35-year-old white guys rediscovering the blues, and I'm not going to be able to run them until 2008").

― js (honestengine), Friday, 18 November 2005 23:54 (twenty years ago)

I think I've figured out who Al is, by mere process of elimination. Dude, your stuff is everywhere and you always manage to kick ass and your first initial is M.

-- Raymond Cummings (gracefulas...), November 18th, 2005.

haha Raymond, you're trying way too hard, my first name is Al and it's the same name as on my bylines, wtf

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 19 November 2005 00:20 (twenty years ago)

except for the part about me kicking ass, you got that part right

― Al (sitcom), Saturday, 19 November 2005 00:25 (twenty years ago)

the publisher doesn't cut a check until he runs it

Yeah, some features are printed two months later, and then he'll wait a while before cutting that check. Meanwhile, you better be respectin deadlines an all.

― blunt (blunt), Saturday, 19 November 2005 00:42 (twenty years ago)

* ptooey *

― blunt (blunt), Saturday, 19 November 2005 00:43 (twenty years ago)

I think I've figured out who Al is, by mere process of elimination. Dude, your stuff is everywhere and you always manage to kick ass and your first initial is M.

-- Raymond Cummings (gracefulas...), November 18th, 2005.

haha Raymond, you're trying way too hard, my first name is Al and it's the same name as on my bylines, wtf

-- Al (hoteloper...), November 19th, 2005.

It's Al Shipley right? I like that guy's writing. Who did you think it was?

― cliffing, Saturday, 19 November 2005 02:15 (twenty years ago)

oh my god...i'm a total moron. aaaaaaaaa!

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Saturday, 19 November 2005 03:41 (twenty years ago)

but yeah al you kick ass too.

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Saturday, 19 November 2005 03:42 (twenty years ago)

Al Shipley is DOPE and the local b-more drama on gov't names almost makes up for the abrupt absence of dk.

― deej.. (deej..), Saturday, 19 November 2005 07:43 (twenty years ago)

one year passes...
Can't live with em, can't kill em.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

how is it possible that this thread had no posts in '06?

― fukasaku tollbooth, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 15:21 (nineteen years ago)

great year for freelancers.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:13 (nineteen years ago)

good editors:

jess harvell, baltimore city paper

andrew nosnitsky, scratch magazine

michaelangelo matos, [TBA?]

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

in retrospect this thread comes off as mostly bullshit whining - i have no idea why i thought an athens ga free weekly would be publishing some 19 yr old's dense, injokey, christgau jr style reviews of pop-rap completely unedited

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

I think almost every teenagerish that writes goes throught that I'M HOT SHIT SO DON'T TRY IT phase.

― David R., Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

You were 19! Give yourself a break.

― jim, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

no the reviews themselves were brilliant, obviously - only my surprise was naive

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

That's my boi!

― David R., Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

i love this thread! is scratch still worth reading? i was going to get a subscription a while ago, but im always so damn broke. maybe i need to start writing music reviews for 5 dollars a pop. wait, i'll do 'em for 4. if i can crank them out in half an hour itd be totally worth it.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:54 (nineteen years ago)

the weird thing is that ethan takes direction better and makes changes more graciously than almost any other writer i've worked with!

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

we don't want to get into how bizarre references to mc 900 foot jesus ended up in my world is gone review.

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.canmag.com/images/front/batman/dent1.jpg

― artdamages, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

I got the new XXL-ized issue of Scratch the other day and so far it's up to about the same quality as it's been before (I am kinda mad though that B.Fred asked me about doing a XXLmag guest blog right before he stopped running the site to edit Scratch, though, since I guess that makes the offer irrelevent now). is Noz really an editor there? I thought he was just a contributor but I guess I'll have to look at the masthead when I get home.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

weirdly (?) i've never had any problem with any editor i've ever worked with. then again i've mostly written for my friends, and people i know through ilm.

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

ilm is like the free masons of music critics except you can google it. im sure all the really secretive shit is discussed on cell phones which are promtly disposed of afterwards.

― artdamages, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

Jess, the only time I've really been unhappy with your editing is when you shoehorned 2 references to 'minimalism' into one of my reviews. But I guess your brain's been so burned out by ILM that you just see the word everywhere, like sunspots.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

i plead adjective burnout.

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

my dreams of writing for vibe

http://www.vibe.com/blog/rapidshare/

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

dude, Fennessey is like the Candyman, don't talk about him on ILM unless you want an e-mail from him about how you shouldn't talk about him on ILM.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:47 (nineteen years ago)

FENNESSEY FENNESSEY FENNESSEY

I don't really have an issue with him per se, i mean he's been corny or whatever but he's putting in work which is more than i've been able to say for my lazy ass. But really, who can read a blog thats basically him copying his IM logs with Jon Caramanica for like six straight entries???

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

unfortunately 'a khaki kid looks at hip-hop' was taken offline a while back

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

even IM conversations need editing as anyone on ilm knows

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:56 (nineteen years ago)

'a khaki kid blogs for vibe' > 'rapidshare'

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

haha well I actually read those just because I like reading next-day American Idol analysis, and really anyone's IM logs can make them look like a moron in the cold light of day, but oof, all that slang.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:58 (nineteen years ago)

maybe this belongs on the nathan rabin RIP thread

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 17:59 (nineteen years ago)

as anyone who has seen the way my own blog has ground to a halt knows, i have no problem with posting IM chats as blog content.

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:00 (nineteen years ago)

though this might only be why i blog run-on sentences in all caps on my myspace page these days.

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:01 (nineteen years ago)

guess i'm the only person who would love to see more mc 900 ft jesus references scattered about ..

― mark e, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:01 (nineteen years ago)

pitchfork makin me stay one step ahead of the spider

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:02 (nineteen years ago)

on the other hand, you aren't paid by the LMAO

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:02 (nineteen years ago)

i wonder if i could actually pass an IM convo off for the CP blog

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

i'm just amazed you dudes can keep up with all these blogs! doesn't xxl have like 900 alone?

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:06 (nineteen years ago)

yeah but most of them are updated sporadically and I think Billy Sunday is just a computer program that spouts out random rapper/athlete analogies and the word "hardbody" over and over.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

lololol

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:25 (nineteen years ago)

haha yeah what the fuck

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:29 (nineteen years ago)

I was looking at a regional map of the United States for informational purposes and I saw that Texas wasn’t actually part of the southern region. The south ends with Louisiana. So if all the rappers from Texas that have been killing shit for the last few years are removed from the southern bracket how many official emcees would that give us from the south? T.I.,Young Buck, Andre, Big Boi, Jeezy on a real good day and… Shamrock?!? The south just lost the regional rap competition.

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:33 (nineteen years ago)

North East – This is still the strongest bracket in regional rap competition

!!!!

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:34 (nineteen years ago)

I mean obviously his m.o. is to rile people but still its just stupid. who can even take him seriously?

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:35 (nineteen years ago)

Let's hear it for REGIONAL RAP COMPETITION!

― David R., Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:36 (nineteen years ago)

yeah what's the point in a second Byron Crawford if he isn't as occasionally funny on purpose as the first one.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

if his job is to make byron look good by comparison i guess he's worked out nicely

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:37 (nineteen years ago)

if you take philadelphia out of new york, they're basically swizz beats and screwball but whatever

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:38 (nineteen years ago)

I think almost every teenagerish that writes goes throught that I'M HOT SHIT SO DON'T TRY IT phase.

Eh, you don't have to think you're hot shit to be uncomfortable with people changing your words and your meanings! Especially if you honestly thought about your prose enough to write it that way for a specific reason. There are all kinds of edits that are fairly transparent and which ANY writer can understand as "tightening" or "clarification" or whatever, but it seems like some editors start thinking -- with new writers -- that they can actually re-write and punch up stuff. (And that can be part of the game, too, just providing raw copy and letting a publication use it as they will -- but I don't think that's anything a new writer is going to be ready to adapt to: I can understand editing the fuck out of professionals in Entertainment Weekly, but if you're a 22-year-old all excited to see your name for the first time on a local alt-weekly review, there's absolutely no reason it shouldn't say what you meant to say!)

(Hahaha on the other hand I actually first worked for Pitchfork for like 2 days in 1999, or something, as a news writer, and got horribly indignant and quit because someone added an unfunny joke to the first thing I wrote -- in retrospect I may have puffed up a bit much over "I will not have people thinking I made that joke" principle. Although there was no pay back then, and nobody wants to be forced to put his name on a bad joke for free.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:46 (nineteen years ago)

well that regional rap entry isn't nearly as crazy as the one where he says the top 5 mc's of 2007 include Paul Wall and Mos Def (or the one where he says that Juelz Santana and Mike Jones have "where are they now?" status).

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:48 (nineteen years ago)

his paul wall obsession is extremely bizarre

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:51 (nineteen years ago)

(Hahaha on the other hand I actually first worked for Pitchfork for like 2 days in 1999, or something, as a news writer, and got horribly indignant and quit because someone added an unfunny joke to the first thing I wrote -- in retrospect I may have puffed up a bit much over "I will not have people thinking I made that joke" principle. Although there was no pay back then, and nobody wants to be forced to put his name on a bad joke for free.)

that pretty much sums up my Pitchfork experience (except it was in 2000 instead of '99). NEED MORE FUNNY is not a sound editing philosophy.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:55 (nineteen years ago)

i wrote a review for a magazine once and i had to rewrite it five times AND they added all kinds of stuff that i didn't write, so i asked them if i could take my name off of it and have the review credited to "Rick Rockwrite". AND i belittled the editor on the phone when he called me at work. i still feel kinda bad about that. but i was younger and drunker and not very professional. how is Spin doing these days, anyway?

― scott seward, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 18:57 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, you kinda just have to hire funny from the beginning -- there's no editing it in.

Hahaha unless music crit goes Hollywood, and editors are all like "Hey, we really liked your article, it's got a great shape to it ... I think we're gonna bring in Nick Sylvester to punch it up, and if that doesn't get us there, then Ben Stiller's going to do a rewrite."

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:00 (nineteen years ago)

ugh re jokes: how about an unannounced parka joke showing up at the end of a 50 word blurb for a celtic frost show?

― fukasaku tollbooth, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:03 (nineteen years ago)

lol BRING A PARKA ;-)

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:05 (nineteen years ago)

pfork edited the fuck out of my rvws too (including addition of unfunny joeks) except the eminem review & later mullah omar/choppa moussaoui stuff

― and what, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:06 (nineteen years ago)

I am really REALLY sensitive / suspicious about the idea of editors adding stuff you didn't write -- it seems just ethically wrong to put something out there where people can say "here is what so-and-so said, verbatim," and there's your name, proof, in print ... there's an ethical duty for the person whose name is on there to have absolute final say on what text is going to be attributed to him/her on the everlasting record.

It's also a weird admission of failure on the editor's part -- that they couldn't find a writer to hand over something they'd find workable as-is, or that they couldn't coach, edit, or steer the writer into the kind of shape they wanted. If a good editor wants a piece to be, say, funnier, probably the ideal is to have a writer you can call and say "make it funnier" and get results.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:08 (nineteen years ago)

P.S. Pfork editing has been great to me since I started writing for real, and getting better over the years -- normal copyediting, all content requests discussed and debated, chance to preview stuff before it runs, etc. (I assume this isn't just because they know I'd be an indignant diva about it, cause I've gotten better about that. I've even gotten over the Brit-style quote/comma placement on there.)

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:12 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, i'm kinda the same way, chopping out and omitting stuff is fine but adding anything seems weird, like they should run it by you before putting stuff you never wrote about your byline to be seen by the whole world. but then if it is an actual improvement I'm also OK with taking credit for the whole finished product.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:12 (nineteen years ago)

i think i'm just a big baby. i'm glad i don't deal with that stuff anymore.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:15 (nineteen years ago)

NABISCO AND STRONGO: NEVER FORGET YOUR ROOTS

― Andy K, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:20 (nineteen years ago)

I've even gotten over the Brit-style quote/comma placement on there

It still bugs me. The usage of dashes might be worse, though. If for some reason you can't enforce everyone to use solid em-dashes, at least have it be [word][space][hyphen][hyphen][space][word] all the time.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:22 (nineteen years ago)

if there's one thing the past few years have taught me, it's that i'm not supposed to be in charge of anything

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:23 (nineteen years ago)

my fearless leader, so modest.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:29 (nineteen years ago)

I didn't resent editing at first because I [i]needed it[/it] pretty badly until I had a few pieces under my belt. When you're 21 and writing your first stuff for magazines and alt-weeklies (which is, uh, right now for me), and all you've written until now were pieces for your school paper (or whatever), (good) editors are like a godsend--people who actually can tell you how to improve your writing!

But even when you're a bad (or at least novice) writer, you can tell who bad editors are, and you hate them because you know you could do their job.

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:33 (nineteen years ago)

we're all faking it anyway

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:37 (nineteen years ago)

And ugh, I hate it when things are added to my shit, and it goes double for jokes (even good ones!) because it seems like such a Hollywood thing (like Nabisco was saying)--"Yr piece wasn't funny enough so we PUNCHED IT UP." Taking out is fine though since I tend to be long-winded and have trouble figuring out what parts aren't good enough to stay (since I'm usually too obsessively protective of my stuff).

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:37 (nineteen years ago)

my life is like that kids in the hall sketch where dave's giving a report at work and thinking in voiceover "when are they going to realize that i have no idea what i'm talking about?"

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:39 (nineteen years ago)

ha ha ha ha isn't that sort of everyone's life though? or are there people who are really that confident abt what they do?

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:39 (nineteen years ago)

(the only kind of job i could have that i would truly be confident about would involve playing smash brothers and masturbating in some way)

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

"this is it! this is the moment i've been waiting for!"

"hey, great job dave."

"damn it!"

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:41 (nineteen years ago)

The important part is "people who can TELL you how to improve your writing," as opposed to "people who 'improve' your writing during the five minutes they spend reading it." People who explain stuff are great: when Keith Harris was at the Chicago Reader, he spent like half an hour giving me a terrific phone edit on a piece that wasn't even close to being able to run.

I spend a lot of time trying to think of hypothetical situations where punch-ups could cause major ethical problems, but they're all along the lines of editors adding stuff like "her voice is buttery but meaty, like lobster," and then the writer coming back with "DAMN YOU I KEEP KOSHER AND NOW MY MOM'S REALLY MAD AT ME."

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

It's also a weird admission of failure on the editor's part -- that they couldn't find a writer to hand over something they'd find workable as-is, or that they couldn't coach, edit, or steer the writer into the kind of shape they wanted. If a good editor wants a piece to be, say, funnier, probably the ideal is to have a writer you can call and say "make it funnier" and get results.

Yes. In a perfect world, an editor cultivates a wonderful stable of writers: the funny person, the folk expert, the pop lover, the hip-hop master, and so on. But that's not always the case, especially when you're editing for a publication that's not, shall we say, the New Yorker. Yes, the goal to good editing -- or so it seems -- is to have most of the editing done before you even sit down to edit, if that makes any sense.

However, when you have too many deadlines to meet and too much copy to churn out, sometimes coaching and steering can be counter-productive. Sometimes, you try out a writer who can't or doesn't want to be steered or coached. But at the same time, they can at least get you something that's better than waiting on the really talented person who can't meet a single deadline. Sometimes, you just have to choose your battles: certain writers are worth seriously intense editing and others you basically rewrite their stuff. And sometimes things just fall apart because that how the universe works.

It really kinda sucks.

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:53 (nineteen years ago)

otm.

honestly sometimes i have to whip copy into shape and i don't have time for a formal lesson. i'd never add any idea that wasn't originally in the text but i have no problem with cleaning and clarifying.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:55 (nineteen years ago)

also i would DEFINITELY never add funny.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:57 (nineteen years ago)

Nabisco, did you do a lot of of those phone edits? That's something I've never experienced. Not to sound ignorant, but what can be accomplished in a phone edit that can't be with notes? Is it basically a conversation about the piece? It sounds like something that could help me and my writers.

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:58 (nineteen years ago)

i had an editor who would call me about every word-substitution and comma change. it drove me crazy.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:00 (nineteen years ago)

in my recent experience, AIM edits are pretty awesome. I mean, you can say "fuck no" to a suggestion, but then a smiley face emoticon softens it a bit.

― fukasaku tollbooth, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:03 (nineteen years ago)

more ignorance: AIM?

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:06 (nineteen years ago)

african information ministry.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:07 (nineteen years ago)

they vet a lot of copy and they LOVE emoticons.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:08 (nineteen years ago)

aol instant messenger perhaps?

― fukasaku tollbooth, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:12 (nineteen years ago)

more ignorance: AIM?

/tuomos

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

i see. i've never even used aol!

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:15 (nineteen years ago)

I haven't done many phone edits, no. I think they're most useful with large features that are still fairly early in their development, and still open to really deep re-shaping and re-framing -- it's more of a "developing a piece" thing than an "editing the product" one. It's just nice that the editor can say something like "I think we need more concrete information about the artist's history," and the writer can respond -- "I was thinking about doing that at the beginning, but do you think the piece would kick off too boring that way?" It also means the editor can ask after things: "I like this idea, is that something you could pull out more? Which do you think is more important, this angle or that one?" And in the conversation it's quite likely that the writer will say something outside of the piece that the edit can jump on ("run with that idea!") or vice versa. All of which can get done nicely via AIM, too, sure, though the short lines of IM conversations might hold back exactly the kinds of long texty comments that are important here.

Hahaha this is a dumb and unrealistic thing to say, but I feel like if a publication doesn't attract writers the editor really likes, and the editor doesn't have time to work with them to get better product, then they should just admit it and publish whatever "sub-par" product they're getting! (And if the editor's such a better writer than his/her hires and has time to go through and rewrite sections of their reviews, then that person should just write more reviews flat out.) I mean, the kinds of sense-editing / copyediting / cleaning-up / tightening / reorganization Slocki's talking about -- helping the writer mean what they mean -- are totally the editor's whole purpose and job, but when you're actively punching up the prose and inserting ideas, you're just covering for the fact that you find your publication's product inferior and unacceptable.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:18 (nineteen years ago)

wow, why didn't I see the success of this revive coming?

Amazed to see who some of the writers here are; "God bless editors" next.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:24 (nineteen years ago)

Did I miss the "yeah man, they're just ripping off Interpol" joke?

― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:26 (nineteen years ago)

i can see a simple telephone call really helping out, especially, as you say, in the formative stages. i have a feeling writers tune out the notes when they get too long, which happens when dealing with the very basics of an article.

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:29 (nineteen years ago)

To: N!ck Southall
Subject: Kaiser Chiefs edit

Any residual humor from their debut is mercilessly replaced with BLOSSOMS INTO the kind of depthless REFRESHING sincerity that British rockers all suffer from SO SORELY LACK today. There’s simply no charm or subtlety on show here, and not even any in cheeky, bona fide pop thrills in the vein of “Everyday I Love You Less & Less.” It’s this relentlessness that’s the worst thing about Yours Truly, Angry Mob—even when they try and do a ballad on “Love Is Not a Competition (But I’m Winning)” the melody is so forced that it completely fails to scan A FORCE OF NATURE. Awful Song titles, awful songs, awful production, awful sentiments; this album is pretty close to disgustingLY GOOD. It makes my skin crawl HAIR STAND ON END. I can only hope that the title and lyrics of “Everything Is Average Nowadays” are deeply, deliberately ironic, BECAUSE THIS IS AWESOME.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:30 (nineteen years ago)

morbz clarify?

(ha or i'll clarify FOR YOU)

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:32 (nineteen years ago)

ZOMG CONFESSION: I'm a phone edit virgin. The one time I wrote for CE @ the Voice, I was assuming / kinda hoping he'd give me a buzz so we could go over my piece & he'd help me become The Greatest Thing Ever. But the dude just said, "Hey, nice work!" & that was that.

OK really I just wanted someone to call me. ;_;

― David R., Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:46 (nineteen years ago)

nev mind s1ocki; once again Search has led me into ILM unknowingly.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:54 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.greentourism.ca/images/Newsletter/Summer%2005%20Newsletter/The%20Enchanted%20Forest.jpg

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:01 (nineteen years ago)

see I was hoping this would be like the "fuck a creationist" thread.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:19 (nineteen years ago)

For short pieces I like SMS (mobile texting) edits better than IM because you have more time to respond and think it over, also it's not free and both parties have to keep it short so you don't invite further editing at the drop of a ctrl-v.

― blunt, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:30 (nineteen years ago)

i prefer semaphore

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:31 (nineteen years ago)

i used to edit via smoke signals but then i went blind

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:33 (nineteen years ago)

(something about stone engraving)

― blunt, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:37 (nineteen years ago)

I once did an edit by carrier pigeon, but then when the review ran it was all about how doves are brainless prettyboys who can't hack it in the big city.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 22:18 (nineteen years ago)

They've never made an album as good as Lost Souls, either.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 22:21 (nineteen years ago)

This is all really interesting and informative. Now everyone tell who's looking for pitches.

― DM, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 23:54 (nineteen years ago)

Wait, that wasn't supposed to sound snappy.

― DM, Thursday, 1 March 2007 00:02 (nineteen years ago)

The lesson of this thread seems to be that Keith Harris was the best editor imaginable. And now he's in law school. Sigh.

― Matos W.K., Thursday, 1 March 2007 05:15 (nineteen years ago)

the thing that came to bug me about editing when I was rockcrit/feature writer was the editors' underlying -- subconscious? -- lack of respect for the writing. whether it was an alt-weekly in-house genius brow-beating you over word choices w/the ultimate goal of having you write just like him or a slick magazine editor deploying passive-aggressive tactics and adding extra stars to insure a positive review, usually I wound up feeling compromised in some vague unsettling way, a unwitting conduit for consensus opionion.

OTOH when I edited feature stories for that greying counterculture rag there was a lot of pressure to cut the stories to fit the layout (never vice versa!) and the word count was ALWAYS something different than what had been assigned and this process would take place at the 11th hour w/basically no time to contact the author. So people had to trust me, and while I'd like to think they got good clips out of the deal I know my draconian surgery often felt like amputation. I never added my own language or thoughts, that was beyond the pale.

Over time I could see the rise of the cult of the editor, the angle and attack of feature stories increasingly came to be decided by the editors in endless meetings rather than in consultation w/the writer. "How do you want to do this?" became replaced by "Who should we get to do this?"

Editing reviews was a whole other nightmare, fraught with office and record company politics. Ugh.

Interestingly being edited on my book and on book reviews is a dream compared to all this, it's all about honing your ideas and arguments, not advancing somebody else's agenda. in the end we need editors!

― m coleman, Thursday, 1 March 2007 11:33 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

aaarrrggghhh

I am really REALLY sensitive / suspicious about the idea of editors adding stuff you didn't write ...

― nabisco, Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:08 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:41 (seventeen years ago)

Always think this thread is gonne be about the band.

― Helsinki Is Other People (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:43 (seventeen years ago)

is this the thread where we welcome nabisco to the uk newspaper industry then?

― joe, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:46 (seventeen years ago)

this is the thread where I resign from the UK newspaper industry in protest

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:47 (seventeen years ago)

I would like to note that I have lots of sensitive feelings, as well as episodes of suspicion, regarding this concept: that some editors may be adding extra words or even information to articles that I have written and submitted. I worry that they could add typografical errors or grammatical awkwardness that could reflect poorly upon me, or even add information that goes against my personal beliefs. More later, as I'm off to my NAMBLA meeting now.

― nabisco (n/a), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:47 (seventeen years ago)

loooooooooooooooool

― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:48 (seventeen years ago)

hey, 'bisco. take a deep breath, look at the big picture, you'll be fine.

― J0hn D. (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:50 (seventeen years ago)

^^ good advice, totally true, and it only took a cup of coffee to get over it, but yeah, this thread deserves bumping now and again -- it can be frustrating!

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:54 (seventeen years ago)

nabisco, that's happened to me more than a few times over the years! at a certain point i just turned off the "care" switch, i guess.

this thread = eternally classic, mostly for ethan's bile.

― Beatrix Kiddo, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:58 (seventeen years ago)

the best solution is probably to write more, and invest less in each piece (not work-wise, but pride-wise/emotionally)

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 17:01 (seventeen years ago)

You don't want your words dumbed down into irrelevancy, stick to your blog imo.

― Eerie, Indierocker (The stickman from the hilarious xkcd comics), Friday, 27 February 2009 17:02 (seventeen years ago)

thread was started about a bonecrusher review btw

― bobby dijindal (and what), Friday, 27 February 2009 17:06 (seventeen years ago)

ethan, do you still write for that paper?

― Beatrix Kiddo, Friday, 27 February 2009 17:16 (seventeen years ago)

i have no idea what i was talking about upthread, i dont think id ever been published at that point

― max, Friday, 27 February 2009 17:20 (seventeen years ago)

my advice: never read the garbage they print. it is always fucked up in some way. get someone else to make your cuttings.

― special guest stars mark bronson, Friday, 27 February 2009 18:33 (seventeen years ago)

my advice: man up

― s1ocki, Friday, 27 February 2009 18:35 (seventeen years ago)

FUCK AD REPS

― Jazzbo, Friday, 27 February 2009 18:36 (seventeen years ago)

five years pass...

this thread deserves bumping now and again -- it can be frustrating!

― nabisco, Friday, February 27, 2009 8:54 AM (5 years ago)

Preach.

― alpine static, Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:11 (eleven years ago)

"Every reporter is a hope, and every editor is a disappointment."
— Joseph Pulitzer

― Jazzbo, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 15:10 (eleven years ago)

I get the progression in that, but it should nevertheless be "Every reporter is a disappointment, and every editor is still a disappointment."

― bamcquern, Wednesday, 10 September 2014 19:56 (eleven years ago)

one month passes...

Help: I write for a half-dozen publications around the country, mostly for fun and to write about bands I like. The money is a small but nice bonus.

The biggest (by far) and (consensus, I think) best of these publications butchers my stories regularly. I write 400-800 word articles for them a couple times per month. Pretty much every time, they (and I say they bc I don't think it's just the editor I work with, I think there are people down the line from him) make sloppy edits, insert grammar/punctuation errors, and generally make the copy a choppier read than what I turned in. (I realize that's a judgment call, but in this case, my judgment is right.)

I'm not some diva who can't handle changes to my precious word choices. Far from it. I'm happy to be edited, have been for years. But this is driving my crazy.

I've written a 15 articles for this place and when I flip through them to try to choose one to use as a clip, I have trouble finding one I'm happy with!

Again, biggest/best outlet I have. I don't want to lose it. But I'm also not going to ask the editor why they keep butchering my stories.

So ... I just grit my teeth and live with it? Any other clever ideas?

If nothing else, thanks for listening, pixel-buds.

― alpine static, Thursday, 30 October 2014 09:13 (eleven years ago)

This is very frustrating. Could you not use the OG draft as a clipping?

― Shepard Toney Album (dog latin), Thursday, 30 October 2014 09:41 (eleven years ago)

I don't know? If I'm pitching a story to a new place that doesn't know me and I send 'em, like, a word document with my original, I guess I don't know what that communicates. Seems weird / red flag-y to me. Seems like published anything would >>>> draft.doc in the eyes of an editor unfamiliar with me/my work. And there's no way any editor out there cares about any explanation I'd send along.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I have plenty of published clips from other places that I'm happy with. I'd just like to get something usable from this place, obviously. There are a few that are close enough, I guess. (Needless to say, tonight I checked out my newest story and it is a mess, thus the venting.)

― alpine static, Thursday, 30 October 2014 09:53 (eleven years ago)

Could you not put up all your writing on your website/blog (with links to the published pieces)? So you send new places the link to the piece as you want it edited, but they can also see it's been published elsewhere.

― Eyeball Kicks, Thursday, 30 October 2014 10:55 (eleven years ago)

I agree with Eyeball. I re-publish all my stuff on my press archive blog, with a credit or link to the original publication, once a suitable period has elapsed. If a piece has been significantly chopped or badly subbed, I'll publish the original version, prefaced with "an edited version of this piece was originally published in....". Then, if I'm approaching a new editor, I point them towards the blog.

― mike t-diva, Thursday, 30 October 2014 12:49 (eleven years ago)

Blog is here, BTW: http://mikeatkinson.wordpress.com/

― mike t-diva, Thursday, 30 October 2014 12:58 (eleven years ago)

mc fuckin hammer!!

― j., Thursday, 30 October 2014 13:14 (eleven years ago)

Good ideas, all. And thanks for the link, t-diva. Appreciate it very much.

― alpine static, Thursday, 30 October 2014 15:17 (eleven years ago)

some advice from an editor:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/686/Deal_with_it_dog_gif.gif

― ILOVEMASONNA (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 30 October 2014 15:41 (eleven years ago)

if the check shows up on time don't worry about it

― ILOVEMASONNA (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 30 October 2014 15:42 (eleven years ago)

agree and understand on both counts

― alpine static, Thursday, 30 October 2014 17:48 (eleven years ago)

Having experienced that a long time ago (and only a handful of times; most editors I dealt with always discussed changes), my own opinion is that no one should ever have to put up with that.

But I'm also not going to ask the editor why they keep butchering my stories.

Why not? If they're good editors, they'll understand how upsetting this can be. (Of course, if they were good editors, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.)

― clemenza, Sunday, 2 November 2014 01:59 (eleven years ago)

one month passes...

You're probably right, clemenza. The best thing to do would probably be to address the issue, just like I should go talk to my neighbor who keeps putting little bits of trash in my trash can. Easier said than done, though.

And aside from just the "avoid confrontation" aspect of it, I have to ask myself: Do I really wanna take the time to craft this email? Do I wanna have to make this editor read it, and think about it, and respond to it? He's a busy guy. I'm not some brilliant writing talent. He could easily decide I'm not worth the trouble and cut me off. I don't think that's what would happen, but is it really worth the effort and heartache to find out?

Plus, I certainly think there's some truth to dealwithit.gif if I'm getting paid, which I am.

Also, since last time I wrote, I've definitely decided my problem is actually with some copy editor or web-department power-tripper downstream from the guy I work with.

Complaining about it anonymously on this thread is really the easiest way to go.

― alpine static, Thursday, 4 December 2014 10:00 (eleven years ago)

My two cents (also given I've worked as an editor): you should write the email, the kind of revisions and editing you're describing is unprofessional. Without intervening, it's contributing to the erosion of best practice, and feelings of precarity, while understandable, are precisely the sort of thing that allows for the depreciation of standards and care in support of writing, cultural criticism, journalism, or any other professional text-based content.

― MikoMcha, Thursday, 4 December 2014 10:07 (eleven years ago)

I mean, it would be one thing if the edits weren't introducing errors into the text, you know?

― MikoMcha, Thursday, 4 December 2014 10:13 (eleven years ago)

Totally. I hear what you're saying and am on your side.

To be clear, I do write and ask for typos and other errors to be corrected. And by errors, I don't so much mean factual stuff, but more like "this alteration of my word choice changed the meaning of this sentence slightly enough to where it's not quite right now" or "this edit messed up the subject/verb agreement" ... but still, it's mostly typos added by someone who ... uh ... maybe lacks attention to detail? Or is in too much of a hurry. Or both.

And I pick my battles on some of the more phrasing/readability kinds of things. Partly because I know that's subjective, but moreso because if I write asking for 2 or 3 typos to be fixed, I don't want to feel like I'm high-maintenance by also asking for "bigger" stuff, for lack of a better word.

I really see both sides ... dealwithit.gif and "no, you should deal with it" ... again, appreciate the chance to vent and the feedback. Truly.

― alpine static, Thursday, 4 December 2014 10:50 (eleven years ago)

four months pass...

better to work with an editor you trust at a place with less name recognition than a place that turns your writing into pulp

imo

whiney's advice was better in an era where a strong editorial hand was common & publications had stronger voices but now there's a chance you're being edited by a 22 year old

― deej loaf (D-40), Monday, 6 April 2015 12:22 (eleven years ago)

when i wrote about music - i remember this one editor changed "that's a bold claim" to "them's fightin' words"

annoys me thinking about it and it was about 12 years ago

― Junior Dictionary (LocalGarda), Monday, 6 April 2015 12:29 (eleven years ago)

lol

― Albanic Kanun Autark (nakhchivan), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:00 (eleven years ago)

keepin' that ol' meme alivey

― Romantic Canon Autech' (imago), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:02 (eleven years ago)

Haha the writing equivalent of wearing suspenders or a handlebar mustache

― deej loaf (D-40), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:31 (eleven years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4S2LvMKMrA

― deej loaf (D-40), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:34 (eleven years ago)

http://www.clickhole.com/article/man-mission-man-adding-and-thems-facts-end-every-w-2182

― some stupid push back (some dude), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:46 (eleven years ago)

Thought this thread was about the band

― 龜, Monday, 6 April 2015 13:47 (eleven years ago)

the worst kind of editor is one who swaps your phrase in clear English for a cliché.

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:48 (eleven years ago)

otm.

― Junior Dictionary (LocalGarda), Monday, 6 April 2015 13:52 (eleven years ago)

six years pass...

send the freelance pitch at 5:15 pm Wednesday on the East Coast or wait till Thursday morning?

― alpine static, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 21:16 (four years ago)

Thursday morning is my instinct

― politics is about vibes and the vibes are off (stevie), Wednesday, 30 March 2022 21:22 (four years ago)

mine too. the pitch is probably too long and has taken too much time, which has landed me here!

― alpine static, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 21:28 (four years ago)

a good pitch is sent at 2am and explains why it was sent at 2am

― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 21:35 (four years ago)

i thought this thread was about the band editors

― in places all over the world, real stuff be happening (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 30 March 2022 21:37 (four years ago)

probably should've revived a different, less aggressively titled thread

― alpine static, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 21:43 (four years ago)


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