Albums that were given a hard time by the critics, but which seem to have become classics on a longer term

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A few examples:

Duran Duran: Rio
ABBA: Arrival
Fleetwood Mac: Rumours
Eagles: Hotel California
Marvin Gaye: Here My Dear
Black Sabbath: Paranoid

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 November 2003 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Paul's Boutique by the Beastie Boys

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 November 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Hellhammer - Apocalyptic Raids

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 10 November 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Gary Numan - The Pleasure Principle

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 10 November 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Rumours?!!!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Exile on Main Street.

Rumours was universally lauded at the time.

― Burr (Burr), Monday, 10 November 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

A few examples:
Duran Duran: Rio
ABBA: Arrival
Fleetwood Mac: Rumours
Eagles: Hotel California
Marvin Gaye: Here My Dear
Black Sabbath: Paranoid

Rio - not regarded as a classic by anyone apart from Geir
Arrival - probably got the best reviews of any Abba album at the time
Rumours - did anyone give this a hard time?!?!?
Hotel California - who says this is a classic?
Here My Dear - fair enough
Paranoid - ditto

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 10 November 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Rio IS classic.
And I was one of those critics dissing it at the time, being a thirteen year old boy jealous of all the teeny-bopper lust Simon and Nick were getting.

― p.j. (Henry), Monday, 10 November 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Rio - not regarded as a classic by anyone apart from Geir

Dunno bout you, but everytime the tellybox digs up classic "stock" video images of the 80s, it's usually an animated train going up Peter Gabriels nostril, Robert Palmer acting like a wonky Gerry Anderson puppet in front of a backing band of identically dressed big-bosomed laydeez, and Simon Le Bon perched on the pointy bit of a big yacht in tha tropics singing something about his bird called Rio!!!!!

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Monday, 10 November 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Lodger.

― mark e (mark e), Monday, 10 November 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Second Lodger

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 10 November 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Kid A.

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 10 November 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I've yet to hear anyone call Kid A a classic.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Kid A is a classic...classic piece of crap, that is!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Its my favourite Radiohead. Although still working through Hail...

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Pinkerton by Weezer was actually called by Rolling Stone the worst cd released that year. It is now pretty much considered the group's best cd and by many a classic.

― Jim Reckling (Jim Reckling), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

neil young's "on the beach" was completely raped by NME at the time, was it not? but in the run up to its reissue it became considered ultra classic (which it is, so good)

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

WTF? Kid A!?! It's the only Radiohead record nominated for a Best Album Grammy!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Never Mind the Bollocks - Considered a big disappointment when first released (mainly for lack of new material), now considered the single best document of the Sex Pistol's music.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Monday, 10 November 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

can u say?: Joni Mitchell - The Hissing Of Summer Lawns

― Paul (scifisoul), Monday, 10 November 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

wait, the sex pistols had more music?
(tongue firmly in cheek)

― todd swiss (eliti), Monday, 10 November 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Was was the initial reaction to Wild Man Fischer?

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 10 November 2003 17:57 (twenty-two years ago)

The Cure's 3 Imaginary Boys, Seventeen Seconds, Faith and Pornography all got quite big kickings in various NME/Melody Maker reviews when first released.

Also I seem to remember the first Stone Roses album got a 6 out of 10 in the NME as well.

― flowersdie (flowersdie), Monday, 10 November 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Kid A is definitely a classic to me, and my favorite album by the band. I even thought it had a fair amount of love on ILX. Regardless, I don't know if the critics have changed their minds about it yet or if they will.

― Vinnie (vprabhu), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember reading some heavy duty hate for "straight outta compton" & "the chronic".

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:08 (twenty-two years ago)

*Never Mind the Bullocks* won the pazz and jop poll the year it came out; *Rumours* may have finished second (same year, 1977) -- either way, it was way up there. So both of those choices strike me as ridiculous. The two bands that came to mind immediately when I saw the thread name were Black Sabbath (which somebody has mentioned) and AC/DC (which nobody has); no particular albums, though. I guess by the time *Back in Black* came out, AC/DC were getting SOME support from critics. (Then again, so were Sabbath. But both bands were WIDELY dismised at first, I think. In fact, Zeppelin may have been, too -- though not as harshly, if I remember my history books right.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 18:14 (twenty-two years ago)

*Paul's Boutique* and *Kid A* got really good reviews, too, when they came out, and finished pretty high in critics polls. So I don't get them, either. *Pinkerton,* though, strikes me as a smart choice.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Rumours was lauded when it came out - OK .. But all through the 80's and early 90's, critics continually referred to it as the epitome of 70's rock excess - i.e. it was not cool to like Rumours after 1979.

Remember Wayne Campbell "... if you lived in the suburbs, it was issued to you."

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Their disliked-by-critics legacy is a bit overstated (or I guess it is--according to an old Xgau article it was mostly Rolling Stone who didn't care for them) but Led Zeppelin seem like they belong here. It's certainly worth noting that IV finished 30th in the very first Pazz & Jop--behind, you know, Preservation Act 2 and Joy of Cooking (6th! who the fuck remembers Joy of Cooking beside Christgau?!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

it was mostly Rolling Stone who didn't care for them
Funny, because Rolling Stone is the kind of "typical California 70's rock bullshit" that Fleetwood Mac was accused of being.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

LOTS of important-in-retrospect metal/hard rock bands fit here. Motorhead, I bet. Van Halen, even. And I wonder how good the reviews Metallica's *Kill Em All* got when it came out were. Not so great, I bet....(And I bet there's lots of disco that fits here, as well.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Rumours ever fell out of favor. It was in the RS top 100 albums in 1987. It was always sort of "We hate California soft rock, but we'll make an exception for Rumours."

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

dave matos is talking about zep

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

rolling stone hates california soft rock?!!!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

The Carpenters?

― Jeremy (Jeremy), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Right. Knew it. Cancel that bit.

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

anyhow, metal owns this thread to the extent anything does (I mean bangs repped for sabbath, xgau repped for zep)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

"rolling stone hates california soft rock?!!!"

They pretended to intermittently in the mid- to late-80s, the Kurt Loder era.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

you forget the 70s and the early 80s and the 90s

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, 60s garage rock might own this thread even more than metal (or disco). That was the whole point of *Nuggets,* when it came out -- to make a claim for a music that had been dismissed by "serious" rock fans.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Lynyrd Skynyrd probably fit here, too. I forget what their reviews were like (I BET plenty of idiot critics dismissed them as dumbass rednecks); I KNOW they never placed in Pazz & Jop (which makes Drive By Truckers recent if deserving finishes somewhat ironic, in a way.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

it is weird to think that saying "psychotic reaction" was crazy talk once

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

you still have critics that dismiss lynyrd skynyrd

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

you still have critics that dismiss lynyrd skynyrd

...as well they should.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

shouldn't you be lynching pows somewhere?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Pavement Wowee Zowee

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Um, that last one is maybe not a classic in the sense that Geir's examples in the first post are, but it's a record which is most certainly considered in a far more positive light now than when it was originally reviewed by critics.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know Spin loved it at the time - maybe the Voice can provide the tiebreaker

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean I know Rolling Stone gave it like two stars but that's pretty par for the course for them

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean on that basis we could include Nirvana - Nevermind

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the question is, who are "the critics"? There isn't always a consensus on these sorts of things.

I remember Wowee Zowee received a thoughtful but thorough pan in People. Honest.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Rolling Stone wasn't the only publication giving WZ bad/mediocre/indifferent reviews - the record was a victim of an inevitable Pavement backlash. A lot of fans rejected it at first only to embrace it later on, too.

(I remember that People review, Keith!)

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

people trashed in utero too!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I also remember people reviewing some tv tribute to stevie wonder in 86 I guess decrying the involvement of salt n pepa, calling "push it" 'the nadir of pop culture' or something (did simon reynolds write for people?). if we wanna include people we can get ALL KINDS of fun examples.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

the christian science monitor never gave Deicide a fair shake.

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

What year did Wowee Zowee come out? I dunno, I've always assumed Pavement were always overrated to high hell in Pazz and Jop, so maybe I'm not the one to ask. Plus, if it was the mid '90s, I was probably too anti-indie grumpy to be paying close attention. I bet it didn't finish all THAT low, though. (And who says it's such a classic now, anyway? Probably the exact same people who liked it then, right?)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

yup

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I remember Spin gave WZ a 6.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't say that--I didn't much care for it at the time and now it's probably my favorite Pavement album. I think that's the case with a lot of people who consider it a classic, per se.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, it's my second fave. it is the 'fanboy' choice a la waiting for the sun

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

sort of. it's "difficult," too (the sequencing fucking SUCKS, and it's way too long). but yeah.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Thing is, if it even finished (let's say) around # 30 P&J, that hardly suggests critics were giving it a "hard time"! Jeez...(On the other hand, if Malkmus's lovely prog-folk solo album this year finishes #60, I'll probably say he's getting screwed since it's maybe my favorite thing I've heard by him since Pavement were putting out 10-inch EPs on Drag City. But even that's just getting screwed in comparison to HIS other stuff, not compared to the real world.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I second Matos--the sequencing of WZ is all wrong.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

What Matos says is the usual arc - most people seem to decide after some period of time that WZ is their favorite Pavement record, so it's actually something of a recent phenonemon. I don't think a lot of people even realized how much they loved it until the late 90s or later.

I disagree about the sequencing. The sequencing may seem bizarre at first, but it works really well, I think it has one of the best flows of anything I've ever heard.

Cinniblount is 100% otm, it is totally the fanboy choice. And I'm as Pave fanboy as they come, so naturally it's my favorite record.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:23 (twenty-two years ago)

chuck, next yur gonna be saying that the pixies were overrated! (it's like deja vu all over again)

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Me and the dude from People--the only two remaining hold-outs against Wowee Zowee.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, just to answer Chuck's question from up a few posts, Wowee Zowee was released in 1995.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

really, Matthew--you think it flows?? I don't, and like I said, it's one of my favorite records from that period.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

*Wowee Zowee"* finished #17 Pazz and Jop in 1995...213 votes.

So: "Given a hard time by critics" my ass.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, *I* didn't say that!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

the vinyl version doesn't flow that well cuz when you go to play the fourth side there isn't one.

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

And *In Utero* finished #2 Pazz and Jop in 1993 -- which hardly qualifies as being "trashed", at least on the planet I grew up on.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

these threads aren't fool-proof. on the other one someone listed terror twilight as an album that was generally regarded to be crap. i don't remember that either. and i don't remember ever reading anything bad about kid a.

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos, sometimes I wonder if I just love the flow because

a) I love all of the songs so much

and

b) I've heard that record soooooooo many times

So who knows. It works for me, and I don't remember ever having a real problem with the running order.

Chuck: I guess I was just off-base about the critics. I was only going on what I remember and lots of anecdotal evidence. I guess we just remember the bad reviews of the records that we like, and it warps our perspective a bit.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick Hornby to thread! (no please not really don't auuughhh!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

chuck - I was noting that said planet was people magazine

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

memory is a tricky thing. i DO remember the one star that rolling stone gave to hayzie fantayzee though.and i can forgive but never forget.

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe "flow" isn't the right word. Maybe the better way to put it is "internal logic."

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

And Chuck D and Eminem are always complaining that critics hate THEM, too! (Celine Dion, on the other hand, doesn't give a shit. Which is why she's more punk rock than any of them.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I love when Eminem says (in a hit radio song) that he doesn't get radio airplay. It's cute.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

haha "critics" /= "congresspeople"

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, punk rockers have persecution complexes, so maybe Celine ISN'T as punk rock as Chuck D or Eminem. (Didn't the Sex Pistols do an anti-critics song, too? At least when Lynyrd Skynyrd did theirs {"Don't Ask Me No Questions"} they had something to complain about.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, DOES Eminem do a anti-critics song? He's GOT to, right? Maybe several. But I can't think off the top of my head what they would be, so maybe I was just thinking of his not-getting-played-on-the-radio one. (Chuck D did one of those, too, of course.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Wowee Zowee is Pavement's best album and I used to get into fights with other glasses-wearing semi-men about it. So I guess we could say that its reputation has improved.

You're forgetting KISS, who used to be under-rated and are now over-rated. I mean, the drumming in Rock 'n' Roll All Night still pisses me off. And I still love the song.

And where is QUEEN on this list, for God's sake? Or Depeche Mode (whom I can't stand but let's be honest, they've won the war)? Or is it that I'm in Europe?

I recall that most of the criticism of the Eagles back in the Seventies is that the band was misogynist. Weird (I mean weird to single them out) if you don't know the political back story behind the editors of Rolling Stone and Cream. But I've been hanging out with Ed Ward these days...

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck D had a point. He wasn't getting airplay when his records were going top ten.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, have you heard Toby Keith's new song about critics?

I think there's a difference between critics and scenesters/tastemakers/coolpeople. In fact, I know there is.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

>>Chuck, have you heard Toby Keith's new song about critics?<<

No, I wasn't sent the album yet! I'm gonna call DreamWorks right now.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't want to ruin the surprise for you, but he doesn't like them. Not so crazy about the Taliban either, judging from "The Taliban Song."

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn, and here I thought he was gonna pull a Merle Haggard and become a dixie chick right in front of our very eyes (not that that would necessarily make him any better than he already is, of course.) Tho I guess there's also a weed-with-Willie song, right? So who knows.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

And he drinks alongside yuppies in "I Love This Bar." Also Willie's shit is too strong for him--the chorus of that one is "I'll never smoke weed with Willie again."

I didn't get an advance, I liberated mine from the Internet, but I be they're sending them out.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

toby keith don't need
no damn advance promo shit
number one for sure

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

(critic song's funny, hits the nail right on the head, kinda jazzy blues)

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Haikunym's right -- Critics need Toby Keith more than Toby Keith needs critics (even if I DID put his previous album in my top ten).

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, genuine question: Is Pazz and Jop the very best representation of global critical consensus? I'm not being snarky -- being too lazy to check, is it open to critics everywhere, or do they have to write for US publications? (The reason I ask is that those of us who grew up reading MM/NME/Sounds might have different memories of which records received what kinds of panning.)

And back to Zep, here:

http://southsidecallbox.com/images/zep1.jpg

(with big ups/acknowledgements to JBR's Southside Callbox for that.)

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:34 (twenty-two years ago)

So were the critics wrong when they wrote the reviews? Or is it hindsight and change of perspective/context that makes us now appreciate a record?

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

apparently, though, RS was in the minority, most mags/crits of the time liked Zeppelin fine. though not enought to vault IV over fucking Joy of Cooking (which I've heard! it's pleasant and not a fuck of a lot more) in the inaugural (or 2nd) Pazz & Jop.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

matos - idea for your blog: go thru each p&j and identify the 'joy of cooking' on it (ie. the WTF?!!! ranker)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the spongiex.pitas.com blog is down--Pitas had a four-day shutdown and my password no longer works (grrr), am going to start a new one on Blogspot eventually (i.e. when I have time)--so I'll just do it here. back momentarily.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

>>Chuck, genuine question: Is Pazz and Jop the very best representation of global critical consensus? I'm not being snarky -- being too lazy to check, is it open to critics everywhere, or do they have to write for US publications?<<

Well, we have a few critics outside of the US (mostly in Canada; a few elsewhere), but I don't think there's a BETTER guide to use out there. Though yeah, obviously, US critics and UK critics frequently don't see eye to eye. Which is a great point. (Then again, neither, maybe do German or Australian or Brazilian or Madagascarian critics, assuming they exist, & if there IS a place to guage "gloabl critical consensus," I'd love to see it.) Thing is, on mere NUMBERS of critics voting, I don't know of any poll anywhere that even comes CLOSE to touching Pazz and Jop. If I'm wrong, somebody please say so now, OK?

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there a reason why more international critics aren't involved? Have they been invited?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

english crits are fucking daft

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

English tastes (and their Yank wannabe equivalents) are fucking daft most of the time

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just really really unweildy number-wise as it is. Logistically, you have no idea what a nightmare the ballot entry and computation and so on is (though michaealangleo does). And if we open it up to the world, being complete will be even more impossible than it already is -- I mean, I don't even SPEAK most of those languages, you know? I've made a few exceptions for web critics (who, after all, are read in the US) who seem to be doing really important and interesting, and for some writers from other places who write for US publications. Beyond that, though, we'd be getting in over our head if we opened it up more, I think. Sometimes I think we already are!

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

how many people from the source and xxl vote?

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

and the french are always voting for johnny hallyday reissues which totally screws with the final count.

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

lest we forget ...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002KMB.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

not enough hip-hop critics vote, that's been a problem forever.

I hereby withdraw my offer to post my Joy of Cooking-ing of the P&J on this thread. too big a project, it'll have to wait till I get a new blog up and running. sorry. but here's what I got so far:

1971: Joy of Cooking (6th; Led Zeppelin IV finished 30th)

1974: Rolling Stones: It's Only Rock 'n Roll (fifth; Big Star’s Radio City finished 27th)

1975: the closest I can find is The Band’s Northern Lights-Southern Cross (ninth), which seems odd but not as bonkers as It’s Only Rock ‘n Roll or Joy of Cooking 30-ish years down the line; maybe I’m wrong, though

1976: Rod Stewart: A Night on the Town (ninth; this screams “relief-gimme votes” among critics who were besotted w/Every Picture and took any sign of him not completely sucking as being the same as all-the-way-back)

1977: nothing really stands out here, even allowing for gross oversights like, oh, for instance, almost NO P-FUNK AT ALL throughout the ’70s (exception: One Nation Under a Groove finished 27th in 1978). I suppose Garland Jeffreys’ all but forgotten Ghost Writer at ninth counts, though.

1978: Generation X (29th); an amazingly good year for P&J, one of the most consistent lists of the bunch.

1979: if Graham Parker’s Squeezing Out Sparks (first) doesn’t count, and it probably doesn’t, then I guess Stevie Wonder's Journey Through the Secret Life of Plants does--it finished 39th, the first year the albums list went to 40. First singles year, too: in that category, the honor surely goes to Fleetwood Mac’s "Tusk” (which I’m sure is good---haven’t heard it---but when it outdoes Blondie’s "Dreaming" (8th), the Specials’ "Gangsters" (ninth), Michael Jackson’s "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" (12th), Chic’s "Good Times" (16th!), Donna Summer’s "Bad Girls" (also 16th!--"Hot Stuff” finished third), and McFadden & Whitehead: "Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" (22nd), that’s sorta timebound-rockist fucked.

1980: closest I can find here is Peter Townshend’s Empty Glass (14th), though it’s not surprising, per se, except insofar as it reveals how many first-wave rockcrits valorized the Who. I’m more surprised by Rockpile’s Seconds Of Pleasure finishing 15th, but that’s probably because I know way too fucking much about the taste habits of that particular group of writers.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i'll still take rockpile over wilco. though that's not saying much.

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos, you still haven't heard Tusk? What are you waiting for?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Which isn't to deny it might make the results more INTERESTING if we opened 'em more, assuming there was a practical way to do so. British critics are totally wacky. Not to mention stupid, but then, so are a lot of American critics. So it would make the computations fun; only problem is, I'd have a heart attack and die before they were done!

We send out LOTS of Source and XXL ballots. I don't have numbers broken down zine by zine, but we go through those magazines every year looking for new critics we didn't know about. I'm always interested in hearing about other people reviewing hip-hop regularly, too.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:20 (twenty-two years ago)

believe it or not "tusk" is better than some of those singles it beat

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

well, I'm trying not to let my own opinions enter this too much--just working off how the canon tends to work in real life (i.e. do people, even critics, still listen to these records?). no opinion of Rockpile at all, but again, neither of the 1980 ones I mention are *surprising* to me, they're very much of their time but not to the dizzying degree (i.e. have been almost completely forgotten about) that Joy of Cooking has, or trashed to the extent that It's Only Rock and Roll has.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd probably take joy of cooking over wilco too. ( if i could remember what they sounded like. ho-hum hippydom comes to mind. for JOC that is. no, wait, for both.)

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith: [[rubs hands together]]

Blount: I have a VERY hard time believing it's better than any of the singles I mentioned

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

it's only rock and roll isn't surprising when you consider it's the rolling stones

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

So the problem is that the Source/XXL/etc folks just aren't responding?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:23 (twenty-two years ago)

and that it's 1974. but I'm trying to see them from a Now perspective (yes, the compilation! no, not really, but I wish), which gets fucked by the fact that I've read entirely too much rockcrit from the late '70s/early '80s.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

that rockpile album is good, matos. but then i'm a sucker for late 70's post-pub lowe/edmunds twang and cheek. and i'm not even british!

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Lots DO respond. And more do every year than the year before But yeah, it's way harder to get hip-hop critics to vote than, say, to get Wilco-ass-kissing daily critics to vote; lots of the former don;t THINK of themselves as rock critics. Also, sometimes it's hard to get home addresses for them; I have a feeling that a lot of those ballots end up in wastebaskets at the rap magazines, but maybe I'm wrong.

>>>made a few exceptions for web critics (who, after all, are read in the US) who seem to be doing really important and interesting<<

...work (I meant).

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

and NONE of them are surprising FOR THEIR YEARS--obviously Joy of Cooking were a big critical deal back in '71 or they wouldn't have finished fucking SIXTH. I mean, There's a Riot Goin' On, which is hands-down my favorite album of all time, finished 17th, you know?

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never heard of Joy Of Cooking before reading this thread. Am I alone in that?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

NO!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to hear the Rockpile album, though the fact that I kept not buying it in the used-LP bins while I was devouring most of what surrounded it on the P&J/Christgau lists for those years sort of comes back to haunt me when I say so.

Matthew, no. I only heard of them because Christgau liked them a lot and I read him all the time as a teenager.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

it's like when kelly tripucka almost got voted onto the all-star team!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a Joy of Cooking lp. It sucks.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to have two of them. Didn't care for either.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:29 (twenty-two years ago)

also had a Terry Garthwaite (member of JOC) solo disc! it sucked too. damn you Christgau!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

1. Pure Pop For Now People/Jesus of Cool
2. Labour of Lust
3. Repeat When Necessary
4. Whatever Lowe or Rockpile album had "I Knew the Bride" on it
(best wedding song ever not written by Chuck Berry, by the way)
5. Tracks on Wax 4 (I guess)
6. Seconds of Pleasure (mainly for "Teacher Teacher")
7. Whatever Edmunds album had "Trouble Boy" on it

(OF course, that doesn't take into account Brinsley Schwarz, Ducks Deluxe, Kilburn and the High Roads, or the 101ers for that matter.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The AMG entry on the Joy of Cooking says so much.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

and that is a list of what, Chuck?

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck kicked me off the Pazz + Jop voter list because I turned into a European. It may have been for other reasons...

One of the problems with voter bloat is that Midwestern critics always skew P+J toward the middlebrow. They don't like the bleepy stuff. Minneapolis + Chicago excluded. OK, and Detroit. Perhaps by the Midwest I mean the South. Wilco + Dylan reissues will kick Autechre's ass poll-wise, for eternity.

Something tells me I'm about to get my comeupance...

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

that joy of cooking school of bland orthodoxy/ethos extended well into the 80's unfortunately. at least in the states. or at least SOMEONE was trying to make me buy jason&the scorchers/del fuegos/Del Lords/Cruzados/Green On Red/Rank & File/Los Lobos Records. luckily, i said fuck 'em and bought cool records instead.post-60's woozy ex-hippy crud is always sneaking in thru yer backdoor. beware! beware of the wilco lovers too!

― scott seward, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

JoC are NOTHING like those bands you mention, Scott! JoC are folky-rocky and the others are rootsy-rocky (harder, more country, more R&B).

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

at least from what I can remember. also, JoC was led by a piano player, and were far less energetic. crucial divide: punk, even if jason&the scorchers/del fuegos/Del Lords/Cruzados/Green On Red/Rank & File/Los Lobos weren't necessarily playing it. they could get away with being rawer than was the norm c. '71.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Eh, I wouldn't let Minneapolis off quite so easy, MP. Or Chicago, for that matter. Greg Kot's made a career off that Wilco record.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, Radiohead are kinda bleepy. And THEY'RE big in Ohio (and Georgia).

Musicmope -- we lost your address. The email kicked back. Email me your current info somewhat comprehensibly, and I'll re-add you and send you one of those fancy expatriate ballots you've heard about.

Matos: It was a where-to-start-exploring-Rockpile list. But as Scott's beloved Denim would tell you, the pub rock family tree is a very complicated thing.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Joy of Cooking-mania makes a lot sense in 1971. All those horny feminists. I'm talking about male rock critics, of course.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

my kingdom for a really good 80-minute comp culled from Chuck's source list

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

musicmope OTM

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(also, Autechre don't finish high generally because they sort of suck. but point taken)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Minneapolis is the city that once had a critics' poll, in 1994, whose 2nd-place finisher was fucking G. Love and Special Sauce!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm very Midwestern and very bleepy.

― Andy K (Andy K), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Adore
yeah, i know, fuck off

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

bleep-bleep 'm' bleep-bleep yeah!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Not to derail things (or rerail them), but: Chemical Brothers, Come With Us. It's a bit early to call it a "classic", but it wasn't nearly the dropoff you'd think it'd be from its placing in P&J (the 200s?!?!?!). Wasn't much of a dropoff at all, actually (save "The Test", which would've made for a good instrumental so I forgive 'em that).

Matos: EW.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

(ew to G. Love, that is)

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos, did Soul Coughing win that poll?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"Minneapolis is the city that once had a critics' poll, in 1994, whose 2nd-place finisher was fucking G. Love and Special Sauce!"

This is the tragic effect of what happens when we simultaneously claim that music is both ephemeral and timeless.

Chuck: will give you my current lowdown once my email server is back up to snuff.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

no, Live Through This did. but I bet SC finished top ten! (I'd have voted for them, too--I still like Ruby Vroom a lot)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I can understand the frustration with middlebrow voters, but isn't the idea to get an impression of numbers and consensus opinion?

By the way, would anyone here consider the Cornershop album When I Was Born The The 7th Time a sort of "Joy Of Cooking" thing? Maybe not such an extreme case (or a bad record even), but something that people even a few years on don't seem to care about very much.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

SC played what by all accounts was their best show ever in the 7th St. Entry that year so the city was REALLY high on them. I wasn't at the show, alas.

with each passing year, Matthew's Cornershop example seems more and less relevant. more in that Cornershop's melding of Indian stuff with rock/hip-hop stuff gets more widespread in different ways, less in that no one seems to care about that album in particular anymore.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

>>>I can understand the frustration with middlebrow voters, but isn't the idea to get an impression of numbers and consensus opinion?<<

Who said otherwise? But it's hard to get a consensus if middlebrow voters are so much more excited about voting than non-middlebrows, right?

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

(Scott, were most of the crits who liked Rockpile ardent anglophiles, though? seems more like a then-equivalent of "rockisback" except rock was already THERE, at least consensus-wise, so it was more like "roots are it" or something.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Re: Cornershop. World music fusion trends tend to age very badly. Such is the career of Bill Laswell. Already the afro-house craze of just a couple of years ago seems increasingly cheesy. I hope this doesn't mean that Fela is growing passé. If so, I'll accept it with grace.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

xp matos re rockpile: "I like them because they don't gob"?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck: I had to go away from my computer after I asked my question, but thanks for your answers.

And UK critics are surely great (some at least) because they're fucking daft. I don't think I have any overall preference (being Canadian now, and therefore half way between the two, sort of), but, yeah, you can't deny the cultural differences.

You certainly can't simply dismiss Reynolds, Penman, Cohn, Kent, Savage, et al, anyway. Not to mention some of our ILMers from the UK (Marcello Carlin springs to mind).

― David A. (Davant), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

People always forget to factor in how many people HEAR an album in order to vote for it in P&J or even to do a review. I'm sure that affected Big Star -- the record just didn't get around as well as the major-label competition.

And I remember Joy of Cooking. I even saw them fucking PLAY [as The Joy]. And if you put them in historic context, their mode of feminism -- earth-motherish or not -- and general smarts was lots bolder and braver than it seems now. So I'm really glad they finished ahead of Zep. The Brit boys have won all the battles since then. As this discussion suggests, coming out ahead in that old election may be one of the sole remaining ways people get intrigued enough to pick up a little Joy. Certainly hasn't done Zep any damage to be under their Earth Shoes once upon a time.

― Dock Miles (Dock Miles), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but the critics who voted for the Joy now must suffer the indignity of having their brows impugned.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(Sorry, that was a bit snarky.)

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

>Yeah, but the critics who voted for the Joy now must suffer the indignity of having their brows impugned.

Har har. But, eehh -- it's true that anyone who worries a lick about seeming "right" forever shouldn't be in the business.

― Dock Miles (Dock Miles), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Also re: Cornershop. Remember when Talvin Singh was treated like a god in the UK? That's some weak-ass shit.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I think one reason Cornershop's stock has dipped is because 7th Time's supporters acted like Singh was some postcolonial visionary instead of a smart indie rocker with a great gimmick. I still like it a lot. Then again, I'm cool with Joy of Cooking.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean this whole idea of "middlebrow" voters who drag down the worthy albums in P&J is a bit smug, isn't it? I mean what makes Autechre smarter (or loftier-browed) than Wilco? Because it sounds more bleepy, and everyone knows that bleeps are the sound of the future? Yeah, right. And by this time we were all supposed to be travelling around in our own personal helicopters and colonizing the moon too.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

It just is. Now shut up.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

O Nate is otm, I think.

In defense of Wilco - I know a LOT of people who dearly love that Wilco album. I know there's a few songs on it that have a personal meaning for me. It's a solid record, and the kind of thing a lot of people can form a very personal bond to. The Wilco hate seems irrational to me. That record did deserve its acclaim even if it wasn't exactly the coolest or most innovative or socially relevent record of the year.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

My point is not to argue the particular merits of Wilco and Autechre, but just to say that even people who rate their own brows very highly may be just as sheeplike in their views as the accursed middlebrows.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think it's unfair to dismiss critics on the basis of their taste

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:08 (twenty-two years ago)

O Nate, I was just defending Wilco cos I wanted to. It seems like they are being unfairly scapegoated and I figured someone should stick up for them.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

FWIW, I'd rather listen to Wilco than Autechre too (but not over Aphex Twin or Prefuse 73 or Donna Summer or a bunch of other bleepy stuff). And I know it's fair to dismiss critics for their taste. I mean, that's the critic's job - to have good taste - right? So if they don't have good taste, they're not doing their job. I guess this ease with which loaded terms like "middlebrow" are bandied about on this thread just got my hackles up.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

my only objection to using 'middlebrow' to castigate them is that it's not accurate

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

how is it not accurate, cinniblount? just asking. would it be accurate if they were sting or norah jones fans instead of wilco fans? and if so, what exactly do you think the difference is?

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

"my only objection to using 'middlebrow' to castigate them is that it's not accurate"

How about Moldy Fig?

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

>> I know a LOT of people who dearly love that Wilco album. I know there's a few songs on it that have a personal meaning for me.<<

I know a lot of people who dearly love Amy Grant. I know a few songs by have her have a personal meaning for me. But guess what?

Amy. Grant. Didn't. Win. The. Pazz and Jop. Poll.

And neither did Autechre.

So Wilco are all-guns-loaded, shoot-them-between-the-eyes FAIR GAME.

And so are the boring middlebrow moldy figs who voted for them.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith OTM on Cornershop. also, musicmope, Afro-house hasn't gone anywhere--if anything, it's shifted, most notably into broken-beat (see Bugz in the Attic's "Zombie 2003")

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Please please please tell me that's a Fela remake

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

oh, I just think the problem with saying 'damn middlebrow voters!' is that their middlebrowness has nothing to do with their daftness (their sin is seeded in corny indie fuxxness)

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I just don't like the word "middlebrow" - it's too easy. Why not just call them "dumb"? It means the same thing. Just say: "I don't like those critics. They're dumb." Oh wait, that doesn't sound as good as calling them "middlebrow".

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

it is indeed, Nate. basically a cut-up of the Fela intro that works rather well on its own.

o. nate: because we're not talking about their intelligence, we're talking about their sensibility.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

for example, as "brows" (which as Keith once put it should be banished, and I agree) go, "low" means liking, say, pro wrestling. "high" means liking opera. "middle" means liking Paul Simon. that doesn't mean stupid people can't like opera or smart people can't like wrestling.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose I am ignorant of certain recent trends in broken beat.

This is what happens when I shift from getting 1500 records a year down to about 18.

And it's another reason why critics vote for Wilco over, um, Ellen Allien. Daily critics, in particular, mostly receive major label stuff and in much smaller quantites than arrogant obsessives such as myself. At least until I moved to Europe and found that labels wouldn't even send me discs I was slated to review (and actively worked to prevent me from getting them from the States [forcing me to review downloads but I'll let this drop for now]).

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Fine. Point taken. Substitute "unrefined" for "dumb". I still don't like the term.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

or whatever your examples might be.

I suspect I am about to get clobbered for my examples and/or attempt at a definition--or at least that I deserve one.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, there are a lot of dumb critics who aren't middlebrow at all (some of whom like Autechre!) And vice versa, as a matter of fact.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"Unrefined" and "dumb" don't describe their TASTES.

"Middlebrow" isn't great either, but of those three, it wins by far.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck nails it. As Matos says, it's about sensibility (historical perspective/personal history/blah blah) not intelligence. And I suppose politics, too.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Some of the most INTERESTING critics voting in the poll have tastes I'd call unrefined; say, the guy who voted for (I think) Clint Black, Destiny's Child, and Creed a couple years ago. I LOVED that ballot -- he wasn't toe-ing ANYBODY'S line. But the middlebrow-(ish) guys vote for, you know, the kind of stuff that could be approved by NPR.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 22:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The New Pornographers are middlebrow.

also, musicmope OTM about the gravy train. How many of these wack daily critics actually, like, seek out interesting records?

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

That ballot sounds like the Middlebrow 5000 robot shorting out and setting the garage on fire.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The New Pornographers ARE middlebrow. But maybe they're just stupid.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't get the point of having a concensus poll and then resenting the winner because too many people liked it. How is it at all shocking that a decent-but-bland and conservative record won a popularity contest?

I just don't get why some people get so upset about this. It seems like a real "no duh" thing to me. This is what happens when we a) make lists and b) vote.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

New Pornographers are totally middlebrow (and they're my no. 3 album and no. 1 single so far)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

"I don't get the point of having a concensus poll and then resenting the winner because too many people liked it."

Think of it as a Bush v Gore thing.
And who won that contest...?

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

gravy train VERY key - xgau even noted it last year with regards to blackalicious, others and noted it in passing when magnetic fields placed second despite sending out few promos

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Powerpop = Middlebrow, then?

I'm not challenging that, by the way. Just wondering.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha. M. Matos. The M is mmmmmmiddlebrow.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Makes me wonder what's going to happen when the gravy trains stops (sooner not later) and all the critics get their online key or whatever to stream the new releases from label websites. Will this mean that more or fewer people will hear more diverse and smaller label releases? I could go either way on this. But I still want my mersh.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

very middlebrow, yes, I'd say. at least post-whenever it became codified as power-pop and not as something trashier.

Keith: don't I fucking know it!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Think of it as a Bush v Gore thing.

Yeep. You can't possibly hate Wilco that much, can you?

No, I get your point. Wilco rock fan voters = Bush states who throw off the whole thing and overrepresent the conservatives.

My point is basically: democracy is almost always disappointing, even if it is a nice thing for the most part.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:53 (twenty-two years ago)

But lotsa (if not most) Pazz&Jop winners have NOT been merely "decent but bland and conservative." Or at least not THIS decent and bland but conservative. In fact, give or take, what, Arrested Development? Imperial Bedroom? Time Out of Mind? (heh heh), Wilco might fit those adjectives more than any winner EVER. IT'S PROBABLY THE DULLEST RECORD EVER TO FINISH AT THE TOP OF THE POLL, dammit. So is that worth getting annoyed or irritated about? Yep, matter of fact, it is.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

but I don't think any of us are saying it is always disappointing, Matthew, just in this one case. (though there are others)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

BTW, that should be "The M is FOR mmmmmmiddlebrow," of course.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked the idea that the "M" WAS middlebrow better

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know Chuck, Arrested Development might DEFINE the term middlebrow in all its non-glory.

Is Imperial Bedroom a Power Pop album? I've always found Costello kind of sexless but have usually enjoyed sleeping with women who idolize him.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd consider Costello power pop. At least on the records that he's done that I like. You can definitely draw a line from him to the New Pornographers, or Spoon, or Ted Leo.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, I just checked, and Moby won the P+J in 1999. I'd say that one definitely trumps Wilco in terms of being boring and middlebrow.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Let us also consider that the Stereolab lesson: the middlebrow of the past may turn into the avant-garde of the future once its musical values drop out of favor. I'm listening to Gene Pitney right now and it's seriously freaking me out.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

no, the Moby had actual hooks and stuff you could remember when you weren't playing it.

I've never slept with a Costello worshipper and suspect I'm missing out, but BOY OH BOY that's not something anyone here cares about, so moving right along.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Matos, I know you've slept with Costello fans. I have photos...

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

So WHOSE future are Stereolab the avant-garde of??? I'm confused...

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

haha they must have become fans after I was involved with them!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:04 (twenty-two years ago)

(also if you really did have pictures you'd have burned them by now, trust me on this one)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's agree to disagree about that Moby record, Michaalangelo.

I'm going back through the P+J polls on Christgau's site right now, and I think that there are a good number of years which I could make a case for Democracy = Disappointment. It seems like the years which are right on are the exception to the rule, but this is strictly based on my opinion.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, I'm not necessarily saying that Stereolab is avant-garde (I could never picture you listening to a Stereolab album, Maybe if the Matrix produced it...) but that they championed a bunch of influences regarded as middlebrow at the time (MPB/Easy Listening/Perrey + Kingsley/maybe you should throw Tortoise in there) and mixed them with the traditional avant garde (Yoko Ono/Steve Reich/Henry Cow) and both sides ended up sounding like a piece of the other. That's one of the reasons I like Pavement, as well. I draw the line at Lenny Kravitz, though.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, *Nevermind* in '91 kinda pissed me the hell off, I gotta admit.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Frank Kogan on Will to Power, in 1990: "There's avant-garde, and then there's just plain weird." (Which was maybe your point, who knows.)

On the other hand, I vaguely remember WANTING to sleep with a Stereolab fan once, back in Philly. But that might just be 'cause I went to the show with her, and I started getting really groggy.

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

There are some comments I could make about that but I think Matos would object.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

What Stereolab proves, then:

Middlebrow + Avant Garde = More Fucking Middlebrow

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

And where is QUEEN on this list, for God's sake? Or Depeche Mode (whom I can't stand but let's be honest, they've won the war)?

First, they didn't really get a hard time from the critics in the 80s.

Second, the first DM album that is generally considered a classic (unfair, of course, as the ones before it were a lot better) was "Music For The Masses", which did definitely not have a hard time.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I read quite a lot of merciless reviews of Darkthrone Transilvanian Hunger at the time, which in retrospect is rather funny considering its current 'undisputed classic' status.
Also, I wasn't reading magazines at the time, but how was the Venom debut received?

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

As a European, you can't imagine how American critics felt (feel?) about Depeche Mode. Trust me on this.

And don't forget that Queen had Zero profile in the US from Hot Space until FM died.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The Wilco hate seems irrational to me.

Some people on ILM hates anything that is made by white guys with guitars writing traditional songs, and that was made after 1980.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I thought of Venom. I have this old issue of Kerrang, I think, that acts like they're the worst band ever to set foot on earth.

Maybe even more so (in metal circles): Celtic Frost, right?

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Some people on ILM hates anything that is made by white guys with guitars writing traditional songs, and that was made after 1980.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), November 10th, 2003 6:20 PM. (GeirHong) (later) - hence all the basement jaxx hate

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

But are any Queen albums from 1980 or later considered classics at all? "Innuendo" was on its way, but does now seem to be forgotten again.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Musicmope so OTM about Queen. I grew up in the 80s and I had no idea Queen even made any records after Hot Space.

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave q recently referenced Hot Space in a positive light, so I guess that makes it two critics who want that album to get more love.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

btw Chuck if you're still hungry for disco-metal you should totally check out Queen's "Dancer" if you haven't already. It's pretty awesome zep-technofunk.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I suspect that Queen's last five albums aren't even in print in the US. Didn't Hollywood Records put them out? Are they still around? I remember it was a big deal when Hollywood signed Queen in the late Eighties -- no-one could understand why all this money was being given to some washed-up glam metal band (I believe Nazareth and Golden Earing were bigger in the States at the time). But they also got the back catalogue...

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"Hot Space" is a disaster. "The Works" is great though.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

The middle never gets any respect. Think of any word that has "middle" in it - it's usually pejorative: "middlebrow", "middle-of-the-road", "middling", hell even "middle-class" is faintly shabby. What is it about the middle that gives Americans the heeby-jeebies? The fear of not being an individual? Of being subsumed in the unindividuated mass? At least at one of the extremes you have the chance of being noticed - in the middle, you're nobody.

― o. nate (onate), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I would really like to see the royalty check that Brian May gets just from the playing of "We Will Rock You" at sporting events and Nazi rallies.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

The one I always liked was "Dragon Attack," on *The Game,* I think. It was sort of like Billy Squier, but maybe even better. I wonder if anybody's ever sampled that one. And now that Electric Six managed to make me not hate "Radio Ga Ga," I should probably buy that album again. I vaguely remember the next few LPs being big in Germany when I was there, but I was spending too much time listening to Los Lobos and the Blasters and Jason & the Scorchers to bother with prissy un-American dance music at the time (I swear I'm not making that up.)

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

o. nate, not according to Barbara Ehrenreich...

― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:34 (twenty-two years ago)

aw, Jason & The Scorchers at least had that cover of "Absolutely Sweet Marie." Seriously, you gotta get Hot Space Chuck if you like "Dragon Attack." Mercury is pretty damn unhinged on that album and the beats are remorseless.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

>> believe Nazareth and Golden Earing were bigger in the States<<

And it was about fucking time! Wow, talk about yr REAL disco metal...

― chuck, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

though it's a shame that "Body Language" of all songs was the single off of Hot Space. It's comparably limp.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"wanna be startin something" reveals o. nate's theory to be a lie!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Back when in 1992, when I was squatting in East Berlin all I could get was Armed Forces Radio on my shortwave, which would alternate between "Achy Break-y Heart" and "Last Night a DJ Saved My Life". Thus was born the Eddy aesthetic! Those Jason and the Scorchers albums must have been smuggled in during the Deutsches-Amerikanischer Freundshaft Fair.

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Or did you buy them at Mr. Free and Mrs. Dead?

― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Someone mentioned P-Funk upthread - I'm curious what their critical reception was at the time. Taking their best as, oh say "Maggot Brain" and/or "Mothership Connection", did this stuff get any attention at all? Undisputed classics now I would say.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 10 November 2003 23:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe even more so (in metal circles): Celtic Frost, right?

The Hellhammer EP and "Morbid Tales" are famous for getting bad reviews, but just about every review I read of Into The Pandemonium praises it to high heaven - it smacks of that familiar face-saving phenomonon where critics miss the boat on some hugely influential debut, and then make up for it by declaring that the poorer follow-ups "are actually better".

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

= phenomenon.

― Siegbran (eofor), Monday, 10 November 2003 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

>>critics miss the boat on some hugely influential debut, and then make up for it by declaring that the poorer follow-ups "are actually better". <<

Well, in C-Frost's case, those later ones ARE better. A LOT better. And at least as influential, too -- and they influenced stuff that DIDN'T entirely suck eggs, too! But we've had that discussion before, Siegbran. Still, I was referring to those really early ugly-assed albums you like--such as, yeah, the pre-Celtic Frost ones. Which, as I recall, are now considered "classics" in many a metal circle.

― chuck, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

wow this thread got good while i was taking my daily 3 hour nap. Oh, and MATOS, that was just my standard rant against the rolling stone magazine of my youth. i could never understand why they wouldn't write more about all the cool new music i was discovering back then. or why they dismissed it in favor of all that roots rock. and some of that roots rock i liked. rank&file i remember liking. and the knitters cuz i was an X fan. and a lot of the stuff that they dismissed that i loved back then they were probably right in dismissing. but they were and often still are too sloooooooooooooow to recognize truly exciting stuff out there as it was/is happening.their vision of the future always looked suspiciously like the past to me. and it still does. i just hate when the future resembles The Byrds in any way, shape or form.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

um, meaning that i realize joy of cooking don't sound like the cruzados.

i believe there is a fundamental philosophical and ideological divide between wilco people and non-wilco people.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

what if I kinda like a couple Wilco songs (usually the first ones on the albums, like "I Must Be High" and "Misunderstood") but never bother to buy the records cuz after one listen I'm fairly bored?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

But the Byrds were an insane drugged space-rock noise band, Skrot!!!! They're YOUR roots (and, I dunno, Hawkwind's and Amon Duul's and Stars as Eyes's roots), not Wilco's or Jason and the Scorchers' (who as I pointed out above, are MY roots. Is this a crazy world, or what?)

― chuck, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

sure they're Wilco's and Jason & the Scorchers' roots as well as Hawkwind's.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Weird. Yankee Hotel Foxtrot is the only thing Wilco's done which isn't boring to me. I'd say that in general terms, Wilco is a boring band, but that's a good album.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, the Byrds probably ARE those roots bands' roots, too.

But you get my point, right?

As F. Kogan (again) said once, R.E.M. were not like the Byrds; Will to Power were like the Byrds. Which makes the Byrds seem VERY cool.

― chuck, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:33 (twenty-two years ago)

no one's answered me about P-Funk - where did they rate on Pazz & Jop?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you think that the hegemony of the roots loving critics is something that will wane in the future when more older critics die/retire?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)

they got no p&j love (p&j was pretty lilywhite in the 70s)(lillywhite in the 80s) but xgau had their back

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:37 (twenty-two years ago)

didn't see the question. only P-Funk album to finish during the P-Funk era was One Nation Under a Groove, 27th in '78. which means: no Maggot Brain, no Mothership Connection, no Funkentelechy vs. the Placebo Syndrome, no Ah...the Name Is Bootsy, Baby! George Clinton's Computer Games (27th in '82, 14th in '83 with the carryover rule), You Shouldn't-Nuf Bit Fish (28th in '84), P-Funk Allstars' Urban Dancefloor Guerillas (37th in '84) broke the streak.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i getcha. but something about them always rubbed me the wrong way. they are too middlebrow mebbe(hah!). they are hardly my favorite space rock band.or at least the stuff of theirs that is space rock. i like some songs-and i have heard them all, mind you-but, yeah, they aren't my faves by a long shot. and the country rock thing of theirs just leaves me cold for some reason.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

oh jeez. i was talking about the byrds. just in case. i love p-funk's country rock!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Who can forget the classic Appalachian album The Mother-Sister Connection?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you think that the hegemony of the roots loving critics is something that will wane in the future when more older critics die/retire?

No, it just means a younger generation's roots will come to bear, and that means in my case stuff like Depeche and the Cure, for instance. And if that pisses off the shade of Dave Marsh, oh how I don't weep.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

hey they did country rock songs. especially on the really old stuff. at the risk of killing this thread dead(i'm really good at that)i much prefer paul revere and the raiders to the byrds. they were better in every way. and they went to memphis and cut an album like it wasn't no thing. the byrds were too constipated.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"only P-Funk album to finish during the P-Funk era was One Nation Under a Groove, 27th in '78"

Well, that's appalling, they easily get my vote on this thread for being shamefully undervalued. Especially considering the breadth and depth of, dare I say it, *influence* they've had on the major emerging genres from the 80s on (hip-hop, electronic music, etc.)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, thank God history is not written by critics.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you think that the hegemony of the roots loving critics is something that will wane in the future when more older critics die/retire?

I wish! but again:Wilco! there are obviously more tom moons out there than former cure fan critics. i'm guessing. and i don't really have anything against tom moon except for one horrible thing he wrote in esquire or gq about how r.kelly sucked so bad and where oh where was the literate wonderful soul music of yore.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

no shit! that's why it's worth pointing out/laughing at/being appalled by

xpost

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, thank God history is not written by critics.

but it does take fanatical people writing and reissuing and frothing at the mouth about groups like p-funk to keep them alive for future aqua-babies.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, critics actually DO write history, they just do it w/the benefit of hindsight

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think it's so appalling. It's not the job of critics to, say, buy lots of undervalued records and invent hip-hop with them. Pazz and Jop reacted as quickly as possible and tried to make up for what they percieved to be a mistake, but it's not appalling. It's pretty standard. Right?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

x-post

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

well, obviously with hindsight more critics froth at the mouth over Clinton et al - but there STILL has never been a definitive work written about P-Funk. The Uhuru Maggot's "Funk!" book has great stuff on them, but it's about funk as a genre and doesn't focus on them exclusively. The "Off the Record" P-Funk book left a lot to be desired, especially compared to the masterpiece that was the Sly and the Family Stone one.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't magazines and newspapers hire their music writers at least partially based on getting folks whose opinions roughly correspond to the publication's target demographics? If that is the case, I don't see why it makes much difference if there are a lot of critics with relatively conservative tastes - they mostly just do their jobs and the most consequence they have is throwing off this poll and irritating critics with more progressive tastes. What I mean to say is, who cares what Tom Moon thinks, really? I don't think folks like him are all that influential, they only serve to tell a certain type of person what they already think/know.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

trust me, I can sit here and be appalled that Generation X did better in the polls than Funkentelechy vs. the Placebo Syndrome did if I want to. and I will!

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:01 (twenty-two years ago)

You go. I mean, it is appalling, but only with the benefit of hindsight.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

what!? generation x is a great record!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Fritz OTM. Ready steady go!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:05 (twenty-two years ago)

u-ooo-se a kleee-eeee-ne-e-e-ex!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I feel like adding a new post here:

Received Wisdom: Albums You Thought Were Regarded As Rubbish That Turned Out To Have Pretty Good Critical Reputations After All (And Vice Versa)

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

if gen x had been the model for punk pop instead of the descendents, punk pop would be more fabulous.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:23 (twenty-two years ago)

fine, but no fucking WAY is it better than Funkentelechy vs. the Placebo Syndrome

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Emperor: In The Nightside Eclipse.

― Agent Uranium [GPC], Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i think there are a lot of younger people who buy into the "roots" thing and that it wont die off just because older critics do. think of all of those jam kidz (though they have weird patchwork knowledge of roots music like the kid i knew who had all the miles davis fusion boxes but didnt even know jimmy smith!). and a lot of youngish people like alt.country. and i still see young teenagers buying Pavement albums which is surreal to me. i am starting to think that euro music is even more embattled than it was at all times previous. i work at one of the locations of a major local indie chain in the DC area and we still haven't sold 30 copies of kish kash between 8 locations. its at 172 on hot 200, at its debut! in 83 maybe you were made fun of in high school because you liked depeche mode and know nobody knows or cares who they are ;-)

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:39 (twenty-two years ago)

also there's a serious crank element to holding onto "roots" as the last bastion of authenticity in our world gone wrong, and we all know that most critics are cranks.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, that "benefit of hindsight" thing cuts two ways.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I.e.: I just got the first issue of *Tracks* in the mail today!

― chuck, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh to hell with the carping, let's just all talk about how great "Little Old Country Boy" is

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

god if they would all just read cliff notes to baudrillard! ;-)
actually, that is a good point. I think that the idea of "authenticity" is very much a part of american liberal discourse so as long as there are liberals in america there will be vacuous singersongwriters at least.

its really part of the culture... as much as i am an east coast liberal (or maybe midatlantic), everyone born in a small pretty town in vermont is born with a grateful dead and beatles record, and they all go to great schools and then write liberal minded books and the process continues. eurofetishism in their lives happens when they are too old, ie mid-40s, year in provence, etc., for Associates!

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"Little Old Country Boy" = wierdest mouth-harp and yodelling intro ever! Put this song next to Sly's "Spaced Cowboy" for the hick-funk genre that coulda been...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I am not too "rootsy" myself (at least not when it comes to the American meaning of roots), but alt.country acts such as Wilco and Jayhawks have managed to make really great albums once they have escaped their country roots a little and taken inspiration from the likes of Byrds and Gram Parsons to write really good songs.

There are only two great Wilco albums, but they are the two most recent ones so far. Which means I will be looking forward to new stuff from Wilco. Never been particularly keen on "No Depression" or "Anodyne" though.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Put this song next to Sly's "Spaced Cowboy" for the hick-funk genre that coulda been...

And Bobby Rush's "I Wanna Do the Do"!

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i actually love Anodyne, and everything else seems to sound cheap in comparison to me.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

um, Geir, the Byrds and Gram Parsons ARE their country roots, dude.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 02:05 (twenty-two years ago)

The Strokes are the newest permutation of roots music.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I try to properly steer this thread toward Armed Forces Radio and German Record stores and nobody bites for some reason.

But it makes a larger point, which, the last couple of posts allude to. Roots music is a canard, the flip side of Space Age Bachelor Pad Music. As SABPM attempted to imagine the future with the intellectual tools of its present, Roots music rarely means the actual roots of music, but the recent personal past of the listener/musician who attempts to emulate it. Roots music was once Howlin' Wolf and the Everly Brothers, whose singles were -- what? -- three year older than the music that was imitating it, such as the Stones? Then the Stones became Roots or "authentic" rock, even though their late Sixties style was just a fashion they chose to (profitably) stick with. And so on, until we have Wilco treating the Byrds (whom I am a little obsessed with, btw) as if they were Dock Boggs.

Likewise, if we wanted to be honest, current roots music would include A Certain Ratio and Gary Numan.

I am sidestepping the issue of Ry Cooder types.

I mean, Europeans view Tom Waits and Nick Cave as blues music. They usually don't/can't see it as the cabaret it is.

Funny, the Atom Heart version of "Angie" just came on my iTunes to underline my point.

― musicmope (musicmope), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Excuse the minor grammatical problems with the above. I just woke up...

― musicmope (musicmope), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 09:57 (twenty-two years ago)

To Matos: Byrds are also their pop roots.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"The middle never gets any respect."

This is crazy talk, o nate. Everyone in America who doesn't sleep on a park bench or own a space shuttle considers themselves middle class.

And every "serious" mass publication bows before the altar of middlebrow art. The Times pats middlebrowism on the head seven days a week--how much more respect do you need?

Middlebrow art generally promises either to make high culture easy to swallow or to make low culture seem good for you. Sometimes both. The smartly tasteful electronic adornments of Wilco, the "good acting" of Mystic River--you get art without making any intellectual effort, you get pop without dirtying your hands or your mind.

And of course middlebrow art is often "good"--vacuum-sealed "quality" is its whole reason for being. Marvelling at the formal accomplishments of middlebrow art is like saying the products in a grocery store are shockingly pleasing to behold.

What is comes down to is, middlebrows don't deserve our respect if only because they so desperately crave it. This way of approaching culture is a post-puritan residue that needs to be scrubbed away like the ideological fungus it is.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to pick up my anti-crazy pills at the drugstore before it closes.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 01:31 (twenty-two years ago)

ROLLING STONE NAMED PINKERTON THE WORST ALBUM OF 1996!?!?!?!?!?!?!

WHAT the FUCK!?!?!?!?

Seriously, does anybody have their best-of/worst-of article from that year?? I'd really like to see their justification for doing such a stupid thing.

― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

ROLLING STONE NAMED PINKERTON THE WORST ALBUM OF 1996!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Dude, they read my mind!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh come on, it's not THAT bad!!

― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Marvelling at the formal accomplishments of middlebrow art is like saying the products in a grocery store are shockingly pleasing to behold.

Keith, do you read Lileks?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I personally find the sheer cornucopia of a Super Walmart to be quite stunning.

― bugged out, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate, believe it or not I've hardly ever read him. (PS, Dirty is a great record.)

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Keith, isn't your favorite record of the year Liz Phair?

― devil's advocate (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:56 (twenty-two years ago)

because that record sounds REAL middlebrow to me.

― devil's advocate (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate, believe it or not I've hardly ever read him.

Jeez, the man has more to rhapsodize about vis-a-vis Target than any sane individual should. Maybe it ties into his neocon dogma or something.

Remember: today's middlebrow is tomorrow's retro-kitsch!

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Nate: you're saying I'd hate him, huh?

Matos: Embracing the mundane /= middlebrow
Also, not every high/low hybrid is middlebrow. A lot of the best pop of the past 50 (at least) years is about confounding those categories.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't call it high/low--more like middle/low. and obviously I'm interested in your answer as an answer, partly because I don't hear it the way you do and partly because you were so fucking vehement above that I couldn't resist. but are you actually saying the record is mundane and that you're embracing it? (I don't think so but you can see where I'd think so based on your post)

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

No, no, I'm saying the album is concerned with the mundane--mundane not being negative here, just in the sense of the everyday and ordinary,

What about the record strikes you as middlebrow?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Emperor: In The Nightside Eclipse

You've got to be kidding, that one was already deemed a classic months before its release - it was probably the most hyped black metal album ever.

― Siegbran (eofor), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Pixies' "Trompe le Monde", anyone?

― latebloomer, Tuesday, 18 November 2003 02:33 (twenty-two years ago)

five years pass...

Remember when Talvin Singh was treated like a god in the UK?
― musicmope (musicmope), Monday, 10 November 2003 21:58 (5 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

...

― Limoncello Carlin (The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 14:01 (seventeen years ago)

Kid A is a classic...classic piece of crap, that is!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, November 10, 2003 5:01 PM (5 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

― display name fatigue (special guest stars mark bronson), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 14:05 (seventeen years ago)

haha, i was just going to paste that.

― caek, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 14:08 (seventeen years ago)

this would apply much more to amnesiac. most reviews called it a collection of b-sides while kid a had been glorified from the beginning on. not sure how critics would rank kid a and amnesiac these days. i still think amnesiac is a better album with much stronger songs than kid a. and additionally it flows beautifully.

― alex in mainhattan, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 14:39 (seventeen years ago)

my recollection is that a lot of critics "admired" 'kid a' and said, "it would have been lame if they'd just done ok computer 2," except you got the feeling that, well, SOME DECENT TUNES WOULD'VE BEEN NICE? and that when 'amnesiac' came along with the promise of being more rocking and tune-oriented, the critics were a bit let down (dys) because it's actually 70% filler.

― display name fatigue (special guest stars mark bronson), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 14:42 (seventeen years ago)

I never got the impression that critics gave "Kid A" a hard time. Surely, unlike most of ILM'ers, they will still rank "OK Computer" and possibly also "The Bends" as better albums. But "Kid A" is generally rated too. It disappointed a lot of fans at the time though. That is, fans that were heavily into 90s Radiohead, not fans that had never liked them much before "Kid A".

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 14:51 (seventeen years ago)

Geir, what's your source for believing that Rumours was critically panned?

― WmC, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:00 (seventeen years ago)

Everything I read in the 80s and early 90s was about how Fleetwood Mac used to be this great blues band, and then everything was ruined and they became a boring MOR/AOR band in the 70s instead, but sold lots of records on it.

― Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:07 (seventeen years ago)

in Finland maybe.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:08 (seventeen years ago)

So it was critically panned 10 years after it was released?

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:09 (seventeen years ago)

Everything I read in the 80s and early 90s was about how Fleetwood Mac used to be this great blues band
Now this is funny.

― Jazzbo, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:10 (seventeen years ago)

Wasn't it, um, not rated highly by the NME at the time?

As opposed to "Tusk" which got ten, didn;t it?

― Mark G, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:11 (seventeen years ago)

Blues rock being very popular among rock critics in the 80s and 90s (xp)

― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Tom D.), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:11 (seventeen years ago)

Ridiculous nominations all through this thread.

Kid A, #3 Pazz & Jop:

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres00.php

Trompe Le Monde, #18 Pazz & Jop

Tusk, #21 Pazz & Jop

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres79.php

How any of those qualify as "being given a hard time by critics" is beyond me. (Except to the extent that every notable album ever released has been given a hard time by some critics.)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:53 (seventeen years ago)

Here's that Pixies one:

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres91.php

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:53 (seventeen years ago)

(I mean, I grant that Tusk got a hard time compared to Rumours -- one of the stupidest nominations on the whole thread, obv -- but not compared to 99.9 % of other albums on the planet.)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 15:55 (seventeen years ago)

Wowee Zowee, #17 P&J

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres95.php

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 16:05 (seventeen years ago)

I think this whole thread is Exhibit A in Whatever Geir Says, Believe the Opposite.

Also, this is OTM: "Except to the extent that every notable album ever released has been given a hard time by some critics.)"

― WmC, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 16:08 (seventeen years ago)

strange as it may sound, not everyone on this side of the atlantic gives a flying jizzwad about pazz and jop.

― display name fatigue (special guest stars mark bronson), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 16:09 (seventeen years ago)

strange as it may sound, you haven't come up with anything better.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 16:11 (seventeen years ago)

five years & no mention of The Stooges?

― Ricky Apples (Pillbox), Tuesday, 3 February 2009 17:26 (seventeen years ago)

I can imagine in which context Hotel California is considered 'classic', but man...

― Shin Oliva Suzuki, Tuesday, 3 February 2009 17:40 (seventeen years ago)

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