Represent: Your Favorite Track Off Of New Order - Substance 1987

"You're a real...UP person."

I was playing it again last week for the first time in ages and I'd forgotten how much I love it all.

Favorite track on Substance, I don't think I could call it, but I'd probably go with "Ceremony".

Disc 2: "1963"

Gosh, now I've looked that that definitive Factory discography site and I'm even more confused. The '81-82' track is called "Mesh" timed at 3:02, then on the "EGG" 12" "Mesh" is timed at 3:25, with "C+W" timed at 3:02.

My head hurts, and I need to go home and play the records themselves to clear this one up.

Thought you'd enjoy that one.

It's my second fave track on the album, Dave....largely thanks to Mr.Hook's bass bit at exactly 4:09

In the End you Will Submit it's...GOT TO HURT A...
GOT TO HURT A...
GOT TO HURT A LITTLE BIT!

When Hook brings in the bass-whomp after the sequenced drum break, it's an emotionally reasonant, cathartic rush akin to the fruition of a decade of scheming to avenge a life cursed by unrequited love. Gorgeous genius.

It's still the most perfect New Order comp yet.

Hm. Kill him.

too many to choose from. i'll go with first instinct for the moment and say "Face Up." cos no one else has so far. and i've said before and will say again, the absolutely psychotic glee in Barney's voice during "your hair was long, your eyes was blue...guess what I'm gonna DO TO YOU!!!!" and the instrumental break right after that is what pushes it up and over the edge.

incidentally, a friend of mine with quite a bit of spare time on his hands put together a rather interesting mix of "Temptation" and "Face Up" played over one another. cos, y'know, essentially cribbing from themselves.

also, when listing the songs most listed above, i notice some people didn't mention which versions of things they preferred. TPK is a brilliant song, but the truncation of it on Low-Life is nothing short of sinful.

...in another vote for Retro, the pink noise morel mix of "True Faith" that's on it is sublime. :)

also, i'm 25. in case anyone wondered.

*rancid demo-quality original recording of temptation* - WHAT?

*"Ceremony" is poorly mastered compared to its prior edition, saddled by clipping and a digitally compressed, flattened low-end; sonic depth is sadly sacrificed for the sake of volume normalization and increased presence*

Ah - I get the picture. You're a *hi-fi buff*. Oh no.

Some good points about what was left off - Thieves Like Us should be there. It's a different way of doing a box - didn't really work, but it's a lovely thing to own.

you can, er, scrap bits of my post just above as a result. XD

...off of Substance, tough tough call. the sped up version of "Ceremony" is nice, although i vastly prefer the vocal from the original version. tough. "The Perfect Kiss" is utterly sublime. the redone-but-not-yet-TOO-redone version of "Temptation" is gorgeous and an interesting contrast to the versions that went before. also vastly superior to "Temptation '98," or whatever it's officially called.

i do like a lot of the b-sides included on the 2nd disc, though. "Hurt," for instance. "Lonesome Tonight" is also gorgeous and might just win. and yes, "1963." the "Thieves Like Us" instrumental is also good, and more than partially because of my uberdorkily enjoying Barney saying "Come in" more than one really should.

very tough indeed.

Haha I like how no one has mentioned a single positive word for "State of the Nation"! (it has a cool drum pattern)

My least fave of the bunch.

there, that's positive, isn't it?

*halos*

no blt here, i'm a vegetarian.

one good thing about retro is that it provides the following in the liner notes:

CRIES AND WHISPERS

Steve :
Cries and Whispers is a great revelation because everyone thinks it's called Mesh. But it isn't. It was mislabelled in 1987 and nobody ever noticed.

This performance was better than anything they actually released during the early years. You will think I am a mentalist, but their first LP and the early singles will make a whole lot more sense once you see this.

goddamn I love how factory cant even properly label their cds/videos etc.

sublimely perfect with barney's falsetto, the chorus, and the rage and fury of stephen's drums. if new order had never played another note again--but thank god, they did--this would still be the greatest song of all time.

Good, I was right about Mesh/C&W then. My brane is still kind of working.

completely agree. i remember when "substance" came out and there was a lot of hate for the rerecording of "temptation". i didn't really get it at the time, but now it makes perfect sense. it's a shame what they did to "blue monday", too (the 1988 remixes).

i want to see that "taras shevchenko" video!

As far as my comments on "Temptation" in the Retro review, I got a load of shit for that, and as far as the...not "elitist" but "spotter" DJs and club-goers/record-buyers go, it was deserved. Most of their early beat stuff I love-- "Hurt", "Everything's Gone Green", "586"-- but "Temptation" always seemed like unfulfilled potential to me, a bit flat. The Substance rerecording is the glossier version I hear trying to get out of that original version. But in terms of credibility, yes, the 1981-1982 version is what you're supposed to spin. No hard feelings I hope.

This is the dvd it's now available on:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/flex-sign-in/ref=cm_rate_rev_pagepos2/026-7513895-4335634#rated-review

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00004Y3PC.02.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

Haven't watched it yet as I need to buy that pesky all-region player. Got the US ed. of 511, Barney's a whale.

However, I find "True Faith" to be positively transcendent. It's probably due as much to when and how I first heard the song, but its one of those songs that re-wired my brain the first time I heard it.

-- roxymuzak (emilysu...), September 16th, 2004.

OTM. I can't think of any other song that would put a smile on my face after having split up with someone and confort me in thinking that life's gonna be ok, still.

no? good.

am listening again ... yeh, you're right, but ... well, they haven't made a very good job of it, have they?

now here's an obscure reference. when i were a very wee lad, arse-end of the seventies, i had a two-cassette set of peter pan, read by the dotrice family and set to music. being a sentimental little sod, i used to weep buckets at the end of it: partly because of the end of the story, which moved my four-year-old soul, and partly because of the music, which throbbed and swelled ...

... and - i'm now sure - sounded exactly like the ascending synth in the long coda of lonesome tonight. it would have been more than ten years between me hearing the peter pan thing and hearing lonesome tonight, but i made the connection in my head straight away.

problem is, this is all based on conjecture. we can't find the sodding peter pan tapes now so i can't check. but, 26 years on, i'd love to hear it again.

Haven't heard that one yet. 'course, there's always the Wilco song where they borrow the melody to "Love Vigilantes" at the end..

1. Temptation
1. Bizarre Love Triangle
3. Ceremony
3. Perfect Kiss
5. Blue Monday
6. True Faith
7. Subculture
7. Thieves Like Us
9. Confusion
10. Subculture

I say we revive this -- and I wish it were a poll.

If I were asked right now, I'd probably say "True Faith" myself -- produced by the much-reviled Stephen Hague, it's very close to the perfect pop song, though "Thieves Like Us," "Perfect Kiss" coming in tied for second with "Shellshock" not far behind (tho I suspect that won't win me many friends here). But I am conflicted about this choice in that while it's the best song on the collection, perfect pop isn't quite what New Order "did" exactly.

Part of me still feels like as towering as this collection obviously is, it also reveals their shortcomings a bit more than, say, Technique, which is pretty much flawless from both a production and songwriting standpoint.

the only real "shortcoming" I can hear is awful single mixes of great album tracks (e.g. "Subculture" w/the godawful backup singers)

four years on my answer doesn't change

I agree with Jim.

"Everything's Gone Green"

"Thieves Like Us", bnut pretty much equal love for "True Faith", "The Perfect Kiss", "Bizarre Love Triangle" and, yes, "Lonesome Tonight" is amazing!

Should have been a poll, but "Blue Monday" obv.

Confusion!

The LP is only disc one, though, so I haven't heard the others for years (the tape had them on). I used to like 1963.

From the discussion above, NO's discography is much more confusing than I realised. I REALLY want to hear that earlier version of Temptation.

SUBCULTURE! Mostly because it's the song most improved from its album mix.

Guys, Geir:

The XFAC73 NewOrder Poll (Closing 25-May-2007)

The FAC73 NewOrder Poll (Closing 25-May-2007)

well 'true faith' because of the chorus

i find a lot of the material on 'substance' a chore to listen to

I'm not sure what it is -- I didn't really "grow up" w this record like some in these parts.

But as satisfying as Substance is on several levels, I'm still finding a lot of it hamstrung by its 80s production values -- drum machines that lack texture, sequences and programs that tend to plod rather than enervate.

Dan Selzer has said elsewhere on ILM that some of that can be attributed to NO's modernist tendencies -- the band's willfully crude use of sampling, etc. I respect his opinion and he knows a shit ton more than I do about New Order.

But while that definitely applies to records like Technique, I don't think it does to Substance, where there's really not much of a justification for it -- it's not like you're hearing the ex-Joy Division guys reveling in primitive synthesizer technology on, say, "Shellshock" or even "Perfect Kiss" (which on many levels I really love, btw). Often, you're hearing remixes done by other people and sounds (digital bongos, synth blasts) that went the way of the dodo for good reason. Regardless, in a lot of cases, they're simply not being deployed with much creativity or even a charming naivety.

Yes, a HUGE part of New Order's appeal is their willingness to embarrass themselves -- My I've arguedmore bands should do it today, because it creates a tension that modern production values (and their accessibility to anyone with a computer) tend to relieve. But I think there's a pretty good case to be made (on Substance anyway) it's not always occurring on purpose...and not always that appealing either.

(goddamn URL link)

I'm not sure what you're saying, Matthew – the songs are mostly great; too bad the production's crude?

Also: "the much-reviled Stephen Hague"?? By whom? Neil Tennant made the pithiest remark about "True Faith": NO tamed, beautifully, by Stephen Hague. The best new song ever recorded for a comp?

Substance has two moments I hate: the '87 remix of "Confusion" which everyone but me prefers to the starker, hookier, cool original; and the "Subculture" remix. Otherwise it's next to godliness.

btw I'm delighted you've come around to Technique.

disc 1 is dang solid (let's just not think about "Shellshock"/"State Of The Nation" cuz frankly there's really no reason too)

Agreed that "Shellshock" & "State of the Nation" are both dire

WTF PEOPLE

"Shellshock" is my favorite. seriously :-(

the first two minutes of "Shellshock" – vulgar, improvisatory, thrilling – contain everything I love about New Order.

Not a fan of that "Confusion" remix either -- in large part b/c I just don't like the punterish "CONFUSION!!!"

The songs are mostly great -- and when the production works ("Thieves Like Us" comes to mind), it works really well. But a lot of the time, it comes off less crude--which I can respect--than generic, which I can't. Tossed off, almost. And there's aspects of that strewn throughout Substance -- from great songs ("Perfect Kiss," which is almost prog in its structure) to crappy ones ("State of the Nation").

As for Hague, there's a lot of crap said about him in another thread -- in large part b/c of Republic, I think.

And as noted above, I love "Shellshock."

I also hate the "Confusion" remake, the "Temptation" remake, the "Subculture" remix, and the "State of the Nation" single entirely. Everything else is godhead, but if I were discovering them today (like you, Matthew), I would buy that Singles comp before Substance.

YES, I know you get all the cool B's with Substance, but on Singles you get all the originals, plus "Procession" in its rightful place of the running order, and the mastering is far far far far better.

In retrospect, I should have told you to hold off and buy that, Matt, but I seem to recall you didn't pay much for Substance anyway, and it wouldn't be a trip to Cleveland if you didn't come home with some used CDs, would it?

OH, and if I had to pick a favorite -- "Thieves Like Us" by a nose.

<i>I also hate the "Confusion" remake, the "Temptation" remake, the "Subculture" remix, and the "State of the Nation" single entirely.</i>

Even having only got into this over the last month, I pretty much agree with this entirely.

Good lord I hate BBcode.

Disc 1 best single-artist comp ever?

so last night in a state of booze enhancement, i ordered the 2cd edition of substance.
my original experience of this comp was a cassette edition that i believe was different.
however, my question is : are there massive volume differences between tracks ?
i ordered via amazon and so got a nice and lovely free mp3 edition.
but, damn, the volume levels between certain tracks is insane (confused > lonesome tonight being the most noticeable).
is this just part of the release, or, once i have the cd edition will these differences level out ?

probably some of the mp3s are taken from remastered (and much hotter) greatest hits that have been release since substance, and the quiet ones are taken from the original substance release. the CD won't be like that.

To quote a non-ILX friend who would absolutely know:

It’s coming. Announcement tomorrow. The 4th disc is a show from Irvine Meadows in 1987 where they played Substance in order, and has long been one of my favorite bootlegs.

It indeed being a fancy edition of Substance. Not sure what the third disc has yet.

And we do have some details:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHV27J7G

Disc: 1
1 Ceremony (Version 2) [2019 Remaster]
2 Everythings Gone Green (2019 Remaster)
3 Temptation '87 (2023 Remaster)
4 Blue Monday (2020 Remaster)
5 Confusion '87 (2023 Remaster)
6 Thieves Like Us (2020 Remaster)
7 The Perfect Kiss (2022 Remaster)
8 Sub-culture (John Robie Remix) [Substance Edit] [2023 Remaster]
9 Shellshock (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
10 State of the Nation (2023 Remaster)
11 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
12 True Faith (2023 Digital Master)

Disc: 2
1 In a Lonely Place (2019 Remaster)
2 Procession (2015 Remaster)
3 Cries and Whispers (2019 Remaster)
4 Hurt (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
5 The Beach (2020 Remaster)
6 Confusion (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
7 Lonesome Tonight (2020 Remaster)
8 Murder (2020 Remaster)
9 Thieves like Us (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
10 The Kiss Of Death (2022 Remaster)
11 Shame of the Nation (2023 Remaster)
12 1963 (2023 Digital Master)

Disc: 3
1 Ceremony (Version 1) [2019 Remaster]
2 Mesh (2019 Remaster)
3 Temptation (2018 Remaster)
4 Confusion (2020 Remaster)
5 Perfect Pit (2022 Remaster)
6 Dub-Vulture (John Robie Remix) [2022 Remaster]
7 Shellcock (2022 Remaster)
8 Bizarre Dub Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix)
9 True Dub (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
10 Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Remaster)
11 True Faith (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Digital Master]

Disc: 4
1 Ceremony (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
2 Everythings Gone Green (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
3 Temptation (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
4 Blue Monday (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
5 Confusion (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
6 Thieves Like Us (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
7 The Perfect Kiss (Substance Edit) [Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
8 Sub-culture (Substance Edit) [Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
9 Shellshock (Substance Edit) [Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
10 State of the Nation (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
11 Bizarre Love Triangle (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
12 True Faith (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)

(I would like to note at this point that Irvine Meadows was in fact in, you know, Irvine and not San Bernadino.)

Was listening to my old vinyl copy of this last night and marvelling that it was out of print (and commanding silly money. One of the most iconic compilations of all time! Wild.

Re OP question. The vinyl answer is Thieves Like Us, and the CD answer is the instrumental version of Thieves Like Us.

Incidentally though I do wonder if its true format is the double cassette in the wide box?

Out again in November, expanded to 4cds with the b sides from the tape and a live set

https://store.neworder.com/gb/new-order/substance/

Ah, this seems like the one New Order thread I don’t have bookmarked. Apologies for the redundant post!

So presumably, from its lack of inclusion on a bonus disc, The Perfect Kiss is the full 12" version this time (maximum length of CDs being greater than it was in 1987). Maybe they should have included the edit with 44 second cut off as a rarity on the other discs, lol.

(I would like to note at this point that Irvine Meadows was in fact in, you know, Irvine and not San Bernadino.)

The first NO show I saw was in 1985, at the now-defunct Rainbow Music Hall in Denver. It consistently comes up in tour lists and setlists as "Boulder," which of course is another town entirely and not really close enough for confusion.

And picking my favorite track off of this comp is like picking my favorite child. That said, I'll go with "True Faith" just because it was released with the original version of this comp.

I think it's quite easy to pick a favorite child!

this is true but the secret is you don't tell your other children

No, the secret is to let each of them think she or he is the favorite.

g00gl3pr00f your favourite Substance track in case the others are namesearching

I like Ceremony more than my least favorite child

SubstanceSuccession

what do I get out of this?

that's a buzzcocks song, not new order

So Bernard is . . . Kendall?

Sounds about right.

I kind of think they should have put Touched by the Hand of God on it - last Factory single, same year and always feels like the end of that chapter to me. Plus there's a good rare mix of it, I seem to recall.

What am I talking about, "last Factory single"?? Last err.. standalone Factory single.

I wondered why they had omitted it.

yeah it's like a forgotten song to me

I would allow it on a bonus disc but Substance 1987 ending with True Faith is perfect and essential.

(On a related note, Standing On A Beach should end with the single mix of Close To Me, and the CD tracklisting that includes A Night Like This is monstrous)

We have an answer from 50poundnote (aka the person behind the Recycle blog some time back):

TBTHOG 12” will be released alongside State Of The Nation and Bizarre Love Triangle with the Brotherhood definitive box next year. Yes, it’s out of order, but all the Salvation! Soundtrack material will be in that box, and that’s where TBTHOG originated. All this info comes directly from the archivist.

It doesn't have anything to do with Substance though and I feel it would interrupt the integrity of the boxset.

Also it aint all that.

First person i ever heard say Thieves Like Us was their favourite song? Jason Donovan, in an interview with Smash Hits in '89. He was holding up Substance on vinyl in the accompanying photo.

touch was released after substance

Touched by The Hand of God is one of the weaker singles (I like it, but its pleasures are more subtle).

And, if they want to make a "2 Substance" then they can start with "Touched ..." and carry on from there.

there aren't a lot of non-album singles after that though

dug out the Touched 12” and yeah it is lesser NO but they were so fuckin mighty at that point that it still totally rules, just the sheer vibe of it is unimpeachable, what a band

dug out the Touched 12” and yeah it is lesser NO but they were so fuckin mighty at that point that it still totally rules, just the sheer vibe of it is unimpeachable, what a band