The Wire: The State of Song- Frustration!

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This months issue contains one of thr most interesting looking atricles they have published for quite a while, unfortunately they have decided to print 12 pages of this 16 page article in their smallest typeface ever and i just can't read more than 2 sentences of it without feeling a headache coming on. GRRRRRRRRR.....

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

well there's this new movement called grime it's very involved and will remind you of baudrillard's contemplation of the theory of things that go bump and by humming along to it you might think about those tunes of your youth and how now they're refracting through an ionosphere of playstations because our contemporary medium is the pixel and

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Close,Ned, but they don't do grime.

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

They will, jed, they will.

― noodle vague (noodle vague), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

unfortunately they have decided to print 12 pages of this 16 page article in their smallest typeface ever and i just can't read more than 2 sentences of it without feeling a headache coming on.

When a magazine does this, it's a not-so-subtle hint that they really would rather you not read the article.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

but i've honestly never seen a typeface this small in ANY magazine, ever.

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

you really would think a magazine produced almost entirely by middle aged men (and increasingly FOR middle aged men) would be more sensitive to the difficulties of reading a small typeface...

― a, Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I see on the website that they're reviewing Lanza's Elevator Music! WTF? Has it been reissued?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

haha me and certain ilxors were chatting abt how the wire doesn't do song or melody last night...they might have been referring to this article but I'm not sure (beer and sleep and all that).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Crimony, Elevator Music has been reissued but it'd need major reconstructive surgery in order for it to not suck.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

why did it suck in the first place mike?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Why aren't readers willing to work a little to get at the brilliance hidden away in music criticism? What's this crybaby stuff? Have you heard of magnifying lenses? Do you need someone else to make an appointment with an optometrist for you? Why can't there be at least one publication for people who like to squint? If you want readable type, stick to Entertainment Weekly. Or maybe you'd rather read Mein Kampf. I hear it's available in LARGE PRINT.

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I wrote a whole essay on the subject but it's not on Tom's site anymore (grrr) and archive.org is currently useless.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

rockist - hahaahaaa!

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I sense someone's forehead veins are throbbing rather alarmingly.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

oh ok if it turns up anywhere do tell.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I see the small type as something way beyond a "rock critic" thing and more a "magazine layout" thing. In fact I kinda doubt the writer had anything to do with it.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

the wire do change much of the layout from issue to issue.

The design is much better than maybe 3-4 years ago. Maybe they've been loking at that far more than the contents.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:53 (twenty-two years ago)

(What was the name of that rock magazine that once rendered a Bryan Ferry interview entirely in a dingbat font?)

The design is much better than maybe 3-4 years ago. Maybe they've been looking at that far more than the contents.

It sure seems like it!

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i actually think its the best looking magazine available, until you try to read it.

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

raygun, mike

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 24 April 2004 12:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I just find The Wire's flaws seem more clear to me now than they've ever been before: cheerleading, trend-mongering, contempt for the mainstream, dull and uncritical reviews, etc.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus they seem to have expanded their coverage of rock-centered stuff, and while I bet it pays the bills, that's never been the reason I've picked up the magazine in the first place.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

When do you think The Wire started to change? Other than the cover person usually having some appeal to the indie rock set, which happened 2 or 3 years ago, I haven't noticed much of a difference. Are you sure it's not you that's changing?

― Mark (MarkR), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Are you sure it's not you that's changing?

Well, I've noticed my voice has begun to crack and I've started to grow hair "down there" and I've been having these funny feelings towards other men...

Sorry.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

You might want to have that looked at. I hear it's a sign.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Seriously, though, a number of the magazine's best writers have disappeared from its pages recently, probably to write books. That's a pretty palpable and obvious change right there, and maybe the source behind some of the other ones.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I saw the sign. It opened up my eyes, you know.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

(DAMN YOU RAGGETT AND YOUR IRRESISTIBLE PULL TOWARD THE LAND OF SILLY!!!)

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

''When do you think The Wire started to change?''

Partly what mike said and partly when rob young took over from tony herrington as editor, he cut off the think pieces, or things like doing one article per month on one topic for a whole year (the series on soundtracks, for instance).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

(DAMN YOU RAGGETT AND YOUR IRRESISTIBLE PULL TOWARD THE LAND OF SILLY!!!)

Yay me! But you're certainly right about the book point.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

this article looked really good too, as a kind of invitation to make some interesting mix tapes above all

i don't like the title though, "the state of song," as if the songs listed are at some kind of vanguard (even if some of them are 50 years old!), and everything else is just retrograde; but that's the wire for you

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 24 April 2004 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

i got as far as the end of the first page (before i got a headache) and there was a bjork track : "Army of me= even buggered up in the remix, its her most powerful song" wtf? i think its the worst Bjork song ever!

i agree with you though amateurist - this would make a really good Mix Tape, was my first thought on flicking through the article.

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 24 April 2004 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

but i've honestly never seen a typeface this small in ANY magazine, ever.

so you've never read Chunklet then?

― gas, Saturday, 24 April 2004 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 24 April 2004 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

no, the wire really IS bad these days. some of the newer reviewers read like pitchfork cub critics. the review of the sonic youth dirty reissue a while back was a travesty.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 24 April 2004 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

i always just browse it in the store because i find that the bulk of each issue, which is the reviews in the back, is pretty useless

some of the features are still cool, and i like their layout a lot

― amateur!st (amateurist), Saturday, 24 April 2004 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I really don't know, or want to get involved w/, the politics of the Wire mag, but the choice of Bohn/Kopf as 'new' editor already seems pretty disastrous. "And the news just in is that Nick Cave is back in the studio recording a new album": this, from the opening para of the current editorial, made my heart sink. I mean, surprise! Nick ("conspicious by his absence from our State of Song feature") Cave recording yet another solo alb, well I never.

I just find The Wire's flaws seem more clear to me now than they've ever been before: cheerleading, trend-mongering, contempt for the mainstream, dull and uncritical reviews, etc.

Michael D has hit the nail on the head. But I am glad Geeta and Byron Coley write for it

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Saturday, 24 April 2004 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

But I am glad Geeta and Byron Coley write for it

Yes, absolutely.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Saturday, 24 April 2004 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I just find The Wire's flaws seem more clear to me now than they've ever been before: cheerleading, trend-mongering, contempt for the mainstream, dull and uncritical reviews, etc.

I've been saying this for a while, in fact even written a few letters about it. Julio is right, the rot set in with Rob Young but making King of the Goths, "Biba Kopf", editor really put the tin lid on it. Anyway, I'm travelling up to Glasgow by train and will need some bumf to read, so I imagine I'll ending up buy this new issues.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Sunday, 25 April 2004 07:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, I'm travelling up to Glasgow by train and will need some bumf to read, so I imagine I'll ending up buy this new issues.

Oh yeah. I can complain mightily if I want to, but it looks like I probably be buying each month's issue for lunchtime reading material for the foreseeable future.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 25 April 2004 08:32 (twenty-two years ago)

see, i h ave voted with my wallet!

or something like that, actually i'm just poor

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 25 April 2004 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

haven't seen the issue yet...i probably won't get it til the end of next week! i hope i can read my own contributions to it, though. that sucks about the small typeface.

― geeta (geeta), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it really that small, jed_? I was a touch disappointed with the article; nice idea though. I wish they'd emphasised the turnaround (with some breaks & continuities rhetoric mebbe) from their initial Death of Song edict.

Big plus point for me, though, this issue: more geeta than ever! :)

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 25 April 2004 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it really that small, jed_?

I'm old, remember.

― jed_ (jed), Sunday, 25 April 2004 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, yes it is!

― jed_ (jed), Sunday, 25 April 2004 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

haha I'll go check.

― cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 25 April 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i hope i can read my own contributions to it, though. that sucks about the small typeface.

If they've done that to your work, I shall give them the smackdown, for they are punks.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 25 April 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

jesus people, buy magnifying glasses

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

(the new hipster accessory)

― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 25 April 2004 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

haha rockist,nice work

― robin (robin), Monday, 26 April 2004 01:10 (twenty-two years ago)

it's all about the magnifying monocle

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 26 April 2004 04:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought the songlist was inevitably predictable, but quality-wise pretty good. Also liked Toop's "I was wrong about The Song being dead" article, though I disagree with his solutions. Wingco is absolutely OTM about Fennesz's Venice. And Penman demolishing the new Patti Smith elpee (deservedly) is the best piece of writing I've read by anyone so far this year.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 26 April 2004 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh good, looking forward to Penmanship and Toop eating his words

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

who declared the song "dead" and why was that idea taken seriously in the slightest?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm assuming from Marcello's post it was David Toop

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

why would toop say such a thing? my respect for him has plummeted.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

All that sake must have gone to his head

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Toop's original 1993 article.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 26 April 2004 09:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I meant 1992. Well, Tasmin Archer, KWS and the Hummingbirds were all hot stuff then, so he probably did have a point at the time...

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 26 April 2004 09:57 (twenty-two years ago)

So now we have Dido, Keane and Starsailor - what changed his mind exactly?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i think his specific points are interesting, and the meat of the piece, but the general point is victim to some hyberbole--it's not the "deconstruction" (boring trendy word) of the song but the changing (less trendy, more appropriate word) of the song, and in that sense is not quite as world-historical as he makes out.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Well it was 1992 after all

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't know what that means: was there a ban on songs that year?

obviously toop is selecting certain things and deeming them relevant, and excluding everything else from his survey, just like the wire and many champions of the avant-garde have done before.

but the problem is that the world doesn't go away. there is still a continuum of music and in fact, it's not so much that the song is ended, or deconstructed, or whathaveyou, but that the scope of possibilities for its manipulation are expanded. i think if he took this tack he could have made all the observations he has made, plus a few more. but it wouldn't have made as many eye-catching drop quotes.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:03 (twenty-two years ago)

but seriously i like about 80 percent of that piece, i'm just grumpy this morning

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:04 (twenty-two years ago)

in 1991-2 i started going out and listening to house an techno and all the palavar surrounding that and i probably, at that time, also thought i would never listen to "songs" anymore, i had given up on them. "Song" did seem dead at that time.

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)

The Hummingbirds?!?!?!? Who they?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"in 1991-2 i started going out and listening to house an techno and all the palavar surrounding that and i probably, at that time, also thought i would never listen to "songs" anymore, i had given up on them. "Song" did seem dead at that time. "

saying that dance music et al killed the song is like saying that antonioni killed hollywood; as a personal poetic statement it could pass, as history it's nonsense. and i think some of this idea rests on an overly platonic conception of "song" (left implicit in the piece for the most part).

if he had limited himself to writing about the death of song-as-written-arrangement-to-be-followed, he might have had a point, except that's not quite dead either, and its poor health is not at all news.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

they WILL NOT do grime. i've told you repeatedly. you will never see that music, or regular dancehall featured in the wire. i will lay money on it.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

it was meant to be a historical statement, thats just how i felt at that time.

Antonioni?

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

well it flies in the face of all the facts - they won't touch it. any garage/dancehall coverage has to be snuck in in established columns. it'll never go anywhere near the full album reviews or features. i will buy you dinner is you see a dancehall/grime feature within the next 3 years.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

actually i'll buy everyone one the entire internet dinner.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

and strippers

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave, my last post was in reply to am!st but you can buy me dinner anyway :D

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

actually scrap antonioni

it's very much like a popular argument in the academy that says that contemporary hollywood is "fragmented", "postmodern", with a scrambled narrative structure etc when in fact it's just a modified version of what h ollywood has alwyas been.

obviously in the case of music this is much on the margin that truly has abandoned all traditional song forms but that's like comparing apples and oranges and more akin to my antonioni idea ("aphex twin killed the bay city rollers!").

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry

"THERE is much on the margins"

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not sure i'm really understanding the analogy fully BUT even though Antonioni may not have "killed hollywood" - i know practically nothing about film at that time - didn't he make it seem... not dead, or even irrelevant but just a bit ...pointless for a while? i think thats what im saying about my own abandonment of song at that time. All this other stuff seemed so vibrant and essential at the time that it made song seem a bit regressive.

that's so garbled.

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 26 April 2004 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

the article's a list thing not a think-piece thing

(although this is probably bad in itself)

but no one seems to be taking issue with it item-by-item

what possibly says something about how the wire maintains some appearance of not-deadness is that i doubt anyone here could comment on every inclusion in it, but i dunno how that works really

― tom west (thomp), Monday, 26 April 2004 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i read most of it in bimbo tower yesterday

definitely a mixed bag

some of the pieces were incredibly dubious

the overall sensibility was, to put it mildly, baffling. stockhausen? partch?

the "winterreise" adaptation was an interesting inclusion; i adore "winterreise" but dislike the adaptation immensely. sometimes the wire seems to be reviewing the ideas behind a piece of music rather than the music. "ideas" in that sense are a bit overrated, i think; genius (or lack thereof) is in the details, and its the details that are often overlooked in music criticism.

it would have made more sense should they have stuck to things like the raincoats and robert wyatt, songs that in their way both adapt and denature traditional pop forms.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 06:48 (twenty-two years ago)

i've never seen anyone take notice of that wyatt song before, it was nice to read a version of my own sentiments on the piece.

i wish too there would have been more things like sly stone's "running away" (another song i had been listening to recently, and some of my thoughts were echoed in the wire blurb)--songs that achieved considerable popularity but nonetheless stand out as unusually aggresive deviations from pop form.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 06:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"they WILL NOT do grime. i've told you repeatedly. you will never see that music, or regular dancehall featured in the wire."

And this is in a nutshell one of the major reasons why the Wire sucks.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 07:07 (twenty-two years ago)

They should have a column for garage/dancehall stuff but it is a hard thing to get hold of.

I know ILM doesn't care about it but its a good thing that there seems to be more coverage of contemporary composition.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

i can imagine reading dancehall reviews in the wire, one of its good points is its eclecticism (within limits, but i think dancehall could fit in)--also one of its bad points as well, as reviews are often a bit ignorant of the poetics of a particular genre. but all eclectic magazines have a similar fault.

really i don't think i've ever read anything notably revelatory in the wire (although certain of david toop's pieces have been very interesting), but it's still one of the better music monthlies i know.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 09:36 (twenty-two years ago)

if only for the layout (btw i didn't find the typeface too small, but then i have pretty good vision).

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 09:37 (twenty-two years ago)

now i'm no freaky trigger ewingite poppist, by a long chalk (though it always astounds me just how much crossover there is between my tastes and tom's despite approaching music from quite different standpoints), but why the hell should it be all about unusually aggresive deviations from pop form, what is said pop form anyway, and aren't all pop's really great hair-on-the-back-of-the-neck moments, deviations, redefinitions, experiments with structure, timbre, theme, purpose, anyway. the idea of a universal pop form that you need to deviate from to achieve credibility is a total strawman and one of the resons i disagree so much with a wire-style avant-garde canon. gotta be careful what i say abt the mag as o whole, these days, though. i personally thought this needed more great pop written about beautifully, as does the whole mag.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

julio is right on both counts, btw

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

reviews are often a bit ignorant of the poetics of a particular genre

the writers who really work in the wire are actually the ones who are most dedicated to a particular area, like hua hso, tompkins, barker, sherburne etc, so i think it's disingenuous to say this in general about the mag's eclecticism forcing a lack of knowledge, but the way these guys stand out does reinforce your point.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, i didn't mean to suggest that this was true of all reviews, but merely many

i don't mean to suggest there is one monolithic, unchanging pop form. but certain experiments seem to directly engage certain pop forms (either those of the moment, like sly stone; or in a selfconsciously anachronistic way, as in the magnetic fields). all music is a matter of background and deviation--all art for that matter. but there are some musics for which pop music, broadly defined, is the most proximate context, and others (er, stockhausen) for which it is not. mixing the two together is fine, but i think in this case it dilutes the theme of the piece to the point of banality. still there's a good mix tape or three in there somewhere.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i think it's just a matter of getting the right people to write abt the right stuff, really.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 27 April 2004 10:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Stelfox and amateur!st OTM

sorry geeta, won't be buying this issue

― zebedee (zebedee), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

ha, i don't care if you buy it or not!

i think every writer who contributed to it (at least every writer i've talked to) had a different idea as to what this feature was supposed to be, and that made some of us confused. we each proposed ideas for the feature, and some of those ideas were approved. we wrote the little pieces that were assigned to us, but i don't think any of the writers could have guessed how it was going to turn out as a whole. that said, i haven't yet seen it.

― geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 28 April 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

they may as well have asked kate thornton and stuart maconie to host an issue. yeh songs are still great but what a boring pick of the bunch. mojo magazine balls. one page on "outer limits" as per usual featuring not much. hafler trio article - i'll give them that - that was a good read. "adventures" in "modern music"????

― bob snoom, Thursday, 29 April 2004 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

admittedly there wasn't much Modern Music in the State of Song peice. Ive no idea how something like Magnetic Feilds' "...saussaure" or Modest Mouse's "The Hermit" fits into any idea of song "pushing the envelope" (agh). The stuff that does seem exciting on that list is old "theme de yoyo" 1978 Riley's "you're no good" 1968 ferrchrissake. So what is The State of song then? and how do the good tracks on this list "deliver us from the death sentence [David Toop] delivered on song" 12 years ago if most of them, the good ones especially, are more than 12 years old?

― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 29 April 2004 11:10 (twenty-two years ago)

you're no good is pretty amazing, but i wouldn't say it was a song

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 29 April 2004 11:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree, if anything it counts as one of the first (the very first?) remixes. but its not a song in itself and its no greater objectively speaking, that the Harvery Averne track it cuts up.

― jed_ (jed), Thursday, 29 April 2004 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

ha, i don't care if you buy it or not!
hmmm, writer not wanting their words to be read. most odd.

― zebedee (zebedee), Thursday, 29 April 2004 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

that magnetic fields tune is a good example of a song that seems to be better to write about t han to listen to. as an actual piece of music i find it very boring, and the "ideas" in the song really only seem useful for 100 word explication.

haha how does some stockhausen tape piece recorded 40 yrs ago liberate us from pop? or is just a matter of shopping the wergo catalogue rather than getting the new supergrass?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Out of curiousity, where can I go to get good writing on dancehall and grime? And music in general for that matter (since most ppl here seem to have a low opinion of the Wire..)

― djdee2005, Thursday, 29 April 2004 12:16 (twenty-two years ago)

www.theinternet.com

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

and yeah, the wire is bad, but its no worse than any other glossy mag out there right now. (and most non-glossy.) i keep reading them at work and getting these little rants worked up in my head and forgetting them at the end of the day. i think this is probably for the best.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

so, is this out in nyc yet?

― Ian Johnson (orion), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

re: terry riley's 'you're no good'

I agree, if anything it counts as one of the first (the very first?) remixes.

A lot of concrete pieces use library & radio sounds, but pretty sure the first piece made exclusively out of manipulations of a single other (pop) song was James Tenney's 'Collage No. 1 (Blue Suede)', 1961.

― (Jon L), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Since I initially posted I went back and looked at some a couple older issues and perhaps there has been a dip in quality. Thumbing through an issue from late '98 I saw Douglas Wolk's great review of Super Ae (boy did that change the way I hear music and I have him to thank) and Alan Light's pice on Maryanne Amacher. I still think Wire does a better job covering experimental/abstract music than anyone else, but still, there is room for improvement.

― Mark (MarkR), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

so, is this out in nyc yet?

Ian - the little magazine shop (CASA) on the corner of 8th Ave. & Jane St. (?) has a pile of this issue.

― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Thursday, 29 April 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

So I picked this up: had no problems reading it, the layout and typeface were fine to me, contents are another thing.

The reviews section isn't bad, actually. At times its dull and so on but Rob Young is back and writing some ok stuff abt the sublime frequencies records, his AMM and animal collective revs were good too. Nice to know Ben watson is around, Ian Penman (one review each) and david keenan (two) all of whom have written excellent stuff here.

Brian marley is also a good on new york school type stuff like christian wolff, cage and feldman (later on he writes a really good review of the feldman performance at the philip guston exhibition that I attended) and all of this before you get Geeta (who also does stuff on no fun fest) AND matthew Ingram (yes, he of woebot) (they are def inot looking around and trying new writers all the time). Finally, ken hollings on the last dismemberment plan record (not so much for the music, but as a diff kind of record) and dan warburton on taku/malfati duo was fine.

also you can't go wrong with alan cummings on takeshisa kosugi on the features. haven't read the thing on hafler trio but will do.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 3 May 2004 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Ian Penman's review of the new Patti Smith in this issue is so painfully OTM.

― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Monday, 3 May 2004 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Got my copy & I am baffled -- the text is very easy to read and the same size as always. Also I'm sorta old and wear glasses. You were hoping for a large-print edition?

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 3 May 2004 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

really glad it's Alan Licht who writes for The Wire and not Alan Light.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 3 May 2004 14:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Agreed.

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 3 May 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

is alan light the dude from vibe magazine?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Monday, 3 May 2004 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he's the ex-Spin dude who does Tracks now? Something like that?

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 3 May 2004 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Got my copy & I am baffled -- the text is very easy to read and the same size as always. Also I'm sorta old and wear glasses. You were hoping for a large-print edition?

that's just not true - compare the size of the typeface in the bulk of the article with the size of the type in the toop essay directly afterward, or, in fact, in any other part of the mag.

― jed_ (jed), Monday, 3 May 2004 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

(xpost) Joel's right.

So I got the new issue and poked through it during lunch. The "State of Song" article isn't really as unreadable as some have suggested: sure, the point-size is a little tiny, but art director compensated for it by having a decent amount of blank space around each block of text. The cover story itself leaves a little to be desired. There is good writing in it, but I imagined the writers would all be talking about how each song interrogates or reconstructs song-form (verse-chorus-verse, the studio-induced illusion of songs occurring in "real-time," the relationship between singer and band, etc., the ubiquity of love in pop, etc.); unfortunately, only a few of them do.

I'm also a little irked about the Meat Puppets review which ends with the band's "happy ending, of sorts" (Nirvana, major label). Uh, cough cough.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 3 May 2004 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

the type size is a nonissue--and so is the cover package! why didn't they just call it "We couldn't find someone to put on the cover so we decided to write about the same fucking people we write about in every issue and pretend it was some kind of overview about fuck knows what"?

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 3 May 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

that doesn't have the same ring to it that "electronica - avant rock - breakbeat - jazz - modern classical - global" did

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 3 May 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

But not as accurate as "boring ass indie singer-songwriter stuff - unlistenable undie hip hop - irritating undanceable twattle - Phil Sherburne's column - the reggae reissues of the month - bunch of jazz/noise stuff I've never heard of"

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 3 May 2004 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

that editorial about Nick Cave is ridiculous.

― mullygrubber (gaz), Monday, 3 May 2004 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually asked to change the name "Critical Beats" to "Irritating Undanceable Twattle," but they weren't having it. (I do think people should start saying "IUT" instead of "IDM.")

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Monday, 3 May 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Why don't you do more features, philip?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 3 May 2004 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"We couldn't find someone to put on the cover so we decided to write about the same fucking people we write about in every issue and pretend it was some kind of overview about fuck knows what"

Yeah! Why couldn't they write about the White Stripes like everybody else? And put Jewel on the cover, in leather? The way they featured Alice Coltrane was way too dignified.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Monday, 3 May 2004 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

???

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 3 May 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

To clarify - I get all the specific criticisms that people are making of the Wire, but the newsstands where I shop are full of music mags that have cheesecake shots and A-list celebrities, or one or two narrow niches and crappy production quality. I mean, based on all the coverage of their "worst songs ever" poll, Blender is America's most influential music magazine. So it's funny to hear so much hate for the Wire.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

So saying that SOMETHING could be much much better than it is = hate now? Esp. when historically (admittedly mostly before I was reading the mag) it has been much better? Also I missed where people were asking for cheesecake shots or A-list celebs. I think most of us would just like more interesting articles, interviews, reviews and primers.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

and some dancehall / grime coverage

― mullygrubber (gaz), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I love The Wire still, i didnt start this as a hate thread, its still head and shoulders above any other mag, it's just not what it used to be.

― jed_ (jed), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes well obviously that would make it more interesting for me.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, you listed the contents as "boring ass indie singer-songwriter stuff - unlistenable undie hip hop - irritating undanceable twattle - Phil Sherburne's column - the reggae reissues of the month - bunch of jazz/noise stuff I've never heard of" - as if that's a bad thing!

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to write more features. I'm lazy, partially, especially when it comes to actually pitching things. And for the past year or so my tastes have been admittedly more techno-oriented and less "experimentally" inclined (whatever that means, but it'll work as shorthand). One of these days I'll get off my ass and get some pitches together. I do like getting paid in pounds sterling!

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Well that is a BAD thing, Chris! Shit I don't want the Wire to be some boring American indie mag. THOSE are a dime a dozen.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

so I'm supposed to think that The Wire dressing up the same old corpses and propping them up in, cough cough, "new" chairs is *somehow qualitatively different* from Blender et al's endless list supply because "at least it isn't the White Stripes maaaaan"? give me/us/the world a friggin' break, please.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

You should also revive Needle Drops btw!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)

hey everyone, blind devotion to Jandek kicks the crap out of blind praise of the White Stripes cuz the former is REALLY RADICAL!!!!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

OK I looked again and the text is indeed smaller, just not at all hard for me to read. Don't want to look like I am calling jed a liar.

― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Jandek probably could kick the crap out of Jack White though. You gotta beware of those crazed recluses.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:32 (twenty-two years ago)

i just wish de:bug was available in english.

invisible jukebox is still my fave wire section. i really enjoyed the one last month with luc ferrari.

― tricky disco, Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the one w/Buck 65 is pretty good too.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

don't you think the writing in the wire is what qualitatively sets it apart from blender?

― tricky disco, Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually the magazine I wish was in English is Trax which really looked gorgeous when I picked it up in Paris (LCD on the cover, a piece on Villalobos, reviews of Kelis, Kylie and Kompakt and a really nice CD with !!!'s "Me and Giuliani", John Carpenter's "Julie", "Cop That Shit", a track from Superlongevity 3 and something else I can't remember.) I have no idea if the mag is normally good, but that issue was nice and it only took me a couple of days to semi-decipher it.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

haha no I don't!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

oh wait yes I do--Blender generally, overall, has better writing than The Wire, by a mile. a LOT less obtuse stiff-upper-lip-old-chappie "I quite like this, it's proper experimental music, and not like that crap the plebians of the world enjoy" stuff. the reggae-reissues column (called, haha, "Dub" because after all Bobby Digital dancehall vocal tracks from the mid-'80s are SO dub) is particularly abominable. whereas most of Blender's writing's worst attributes come from the same place (i.e. England, where bad writing about music comes in stodgier flavours than America's), but where they have a fair amount of good writers doing thankless work in what amounts to the margins spacewise, but joke's on us--it's actually in the magazine's body itself!

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that's overstating it a bit, Matos. I really don't think that many of the Wire writers take that kind of snobby position. It's one thing to infer it from editorial policy but I don't often see that kind of strawmanning of experimental vs pop in individual writers' work. And remember, they're trying to accomplish two different things. My sense of Blender is that it's a bit more info-tainment oriented, whereas the Wire, in its best moments, is trying to be a bit more analytical -- academic without sacrificing entertainment value (at its best). Obviously I'm biased, but I think yr characterization above doesn't totally hold up. Agreed, however, that Blender has plenty of fine writers writing for it, whose work in the mag totally stands on its own. Now, if only they'd ever return my emails...

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

that's interesting, i've never read blender. i do read the wire in piecemeal so i don't encounter much of the dreaded stodginess although i'll usually read and enjoy anything by toop.

(xpost)

― tricky disco, Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Philip, you're right, the strawmanning was overstated, but the stodgy stiff-upper-lipitude that permeats so much of the writing (both in The Wire and in English music mags period) isn't. the overall tone even when I agree with it (which is about even with any other music mag I can think of) is pretty, not offputting . . . ho-humble, I guess. which is down to the analytical vs. infotainment aspect you describe, obviously, but I wish its tone were juicier, just as I wish Blender's tone were less flighty.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with you there not just about The Wire but most mags in general (and my own writing above all, frankly). So much music crit right now seems to be almost dispirited. I don't want gonzo, but I want some kind of passion. I'm ready for shit to have some bite to it, and frankly the alt weeklies is one of the only places I'm seeing that these days.

Anyway, I've got to go reapply a coat of lip-stiffener... ;)

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:23 (twenty-two years ago)

philip where is the easiest place to get the Wire in SF? I always manage to get it when I'm out of town.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm... I think Borders Union Square has it, and I'm sure that Harold's Int'l Newsstand does. My little newsstand in Noe Valley even has it!

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

You can always find it at Virgin (assuming it's still there).

― Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 01:57 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks guys.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 02:42 (twenty-two years ago)

matos, for fuck's sake, if you have a budget the size of blender's would you really hire the likes of alexis petridis and dorian lynskey!?!? it's this that makes me say that blender is way worse than the wire - sure both have their failings but if it wasn't run by cretins with a beyond-spasticated idea of what it is to commission talent, blender could at least afford to be so much better. the wire does pretty good on a tight budget, it could even be great if only it decided to take a look outside its own window every now and again.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 4 May 2004 11:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha, just (belatedly) read the current Wire, the March of the Goths gathers pace with Einsturzende Neubauten, Coil, Diamanda Galas all featured in this State of Song nonsense and Biba Kopf moved to apologise for the absence of Nick Cave! Add to this features on Scraping Foetus Off the Wheel and the Hafler Trio and the resemblance to the NME circa 1983 becomes uncanny. Wo ist Lydia Lunch tho?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 09:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I went to a lydia lunch gig last week.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 09:13 (twenty-two years ago)

... I'm expecting noting less than a grovelling apologia from Biba Kopf in his next editorial for not mentioning Lydia Lunch. Call himself a Goth? Tchoh!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 09:17 (twenty-two years ago)

(POLL DADA POLL: Will The Wire Evah Manage To Do Samthung To Make Dadaismus Show A Minuscule Sign Of Semi-Contentment?

"No!": 1 vote
"Yes?": )

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha ha, shouldn't the poll be more along the lines of "Will The World Evah Manage To Do Samthung To Make Dadaismus Show A Minuscule Sign Of Semi-Contentment?" There's still good things about Wire, and they've mostly been mentioned by other people here like Julio. Complaining about stuff is more fun tho.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 09:32 (twenty-two years ago)

slightly off topic, but dadaismus...did you get to any of the FOTC gigs this weekend? AMM/MEV predictably got a good audience but attendance was otherwise typically disappointing.

(only slightly off topic, as it will be lucky to get any mention in the wire at all, I would think, AMM/MEV notwithstanding)

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 May 2004 10:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex, Trax looks great, but it's pretty mediocre.

― jesus nathalie (nathalie), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

The writing in de:bug is not that hot either -- state-of-the-art German music criticism is pretty dire.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway, with the exception of phil, simon, ian penman, geeta because she's a pal and a couple of other *individual* writers, the wire isn't really for the likes of me. you just have to resign yourself to this and your life gets better - then again, i find myseldf equally alienated by blender, the voice (then again, maybe i just need to lsiten to more barbie records) and pretty much every other publication out there, these days. i'm not even saying this like it's a bad thing, either.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The Wire I think was more "for the likes of me" when it was a straightforward post-Ornette jazz/improv mag under RDC and then a proto-blog under mark s. Unfortunately there weren't enough of "the likes of me" to keep circulation figures afloat, thus all the post-mark s changes. Shame.

That having been said, it's nice of Stubbs to get Matt Woebot into print at long last.

(congrats also to Enrique for getting into the film section of Time Out!)

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 May 2004 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i find the wire a lot less irritating than a lot of other mags/papers.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

slightly off topic, but dadaismus...did you get to any of the FOTC gigs this weekend? AMM/MEV predictably got a good audience but attendance was otherwise typically disappointing.

I was in Glasgow dammit. Well Glasgow was great but AMM/MEV is a dream ticket. I'm assuming Julio was there.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 12:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah, and can I concur with all above about Ian Penman's review of Patti Smith - why has it taken so long for someone to stand up and say enough is enough?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

he's pretty much always hated her, though

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought he complimented her for "Horses" tho?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

AMM- the best I've seen from them.
MEV- no good.

also saw some stuff on sunday evening.

Penman likes 'horses', overall the rev reminded me of the Zappa rant.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 12:57 (twenty-two years ago)

No it was better than that Julio. Why were MEV "no good"?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

MEV for some unknown reason were using Spring Heel Jack's equipment on that gig.

Highlight for me was BJ Cole guesting with the London Improvisers Orchestra on Monday - really amazing integration of the pedal steel with the orchestra, also helped to moderate some of the more excitable members of the group (my God! actual CHORDS!). Terry Day's tango tribute to Liberace was superb as well.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 May 2004 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

MEV- lots of individuality, no group sound. I felt rzewski was shut out for a lot of it.

Sunday was really good: good start with gail brand's duo, chris burn ensemble was terrific (apparently they had two new memebers playing with them for the first time but they had no problems fitting in) and Paul Rutherford was nice to see, if not that great.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

ah, I'm afraid I only stayed for Gail's set on Sunday and sloped off afterwards. On Monday with the LIO Alan Tomlinson absolutely wiped the floor with Rutherford, trombone-improv-wise.

― Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 May 2004 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i think i should abstain from further posting on this thread! but anyone with questions for me can email me

― geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

...Alan Tomlinson absolutely wiped the floor with Rutherford, trombone-improv-wise.

O yeah? Well I'm not a Rutherford hater (no way!) but hearing ear witness reports of Tomlinson's goodness does gladden me immesely!

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, rutherford has had periods of illness and solo-wise is in a position where he is fighting against his recorded work in a way that other great improvisers aren't.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i actually re-read a couple of recent issues today at work and its not so bad, really. just not AS good. which is not a crime, i guess.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"Alex, Trax looks great, but it's pretty mediocre."

That's too bad (although since it's in French, it've been difficult going for me regardless.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 5 May 2004 21:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't see how Grime is even worthy of a mention.

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Monday, 17 May 2004 23:49 (twenty-two years ago)

When did Biba Kopf start posting to ILM?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 18 May 2004 09:11 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

http://www.olivebaptist.org/Ministries/pastoral_min/iraqifreedom/L.Traylor%20Leading%20Singing.jpg

Hmmm. More like the Song of the State.

― Hipper than thou, Friday, 4 June 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The type is not quite as small as I was expecting. Nice to see that Meredith Monk gets a mention, but I find most of these blurbs painful to read.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 4 June 2004 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i am obviously blind!

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 4 June 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

nine months pass...

they WILL NOT do grime. i've told you repeatedly. you will never see that music, or regular dancehall featured in the wire. i will lay money on it.
i will buy you dinner is you see a dancehall/grime feature within the next 3 years.

actually i'll buy everyone one the entire internet dinner.

Where do we post our orders, Dave?

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 24 March 2005 10:19 (twenty-one years ago)

oooh, burn!

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 24 March 2005 11:42 (twenty-one years ago)

BTW, I happen to know the designer who's re-designing The Wire, starting I think next month. Do you want me to have a word about the small type issue?

― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 24 March 2005 13:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, can he/she make it smaller?

(Actually, my subscription ends next month, so white-on-white text might be the way to go from now on).

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Thursday, 24 March 2005 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

anyone have the full list from the cover story?

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 1 May 2005 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

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