So, was Elvis actually racist? Really?

what is the quote you refer to?

Man I want to get that book so bad. I've read parts and they are all so fucking great.

Alex, do you hate history?

okay, elvis was an inherently, if unintentionally prejudiced redneck country boy, making racism unfortunately, but most likely inevitably, par for the course.

and OTMFM on almost all counts, daddino.

i mean, i feel like there are a lot of behaviors and attitudes held (and sometimes espoused) by my favorite artists that i dont agree with. i used to never want to listen to nirvana, cause i just was uneasy about giving suicide credence somehow. and i always feel a little weird when i hear the vitriol mos def sometimes seems to have against white people on black on both sides. but i think the art needs to be separated somewhat from the artist, in order to spare the art from its totally imperfect, human creators.

its not that i think context is unimportant, but i just would hate to feel morally compelled to censor my listening habits due to some friction between the beliefs of the artist and me.

in short, its a shame if elvis was a racist, but i wouldnt let his ignorance ruin his music, or the music he influenced.

this does make a lot of sense, but the idea that racism doesnt exist in the poor underclasses (regardless of any economic similarities), has never been true.

xpost - dickvandyke, you're absolutely right, racism did and does exist in the "poor underclasses," I'm not arguing that it doesn't. I'm arguing that a few of the anti-Elvis arguments don't even understand the context of Elvis's background properly.

As for Jerry Lee, I always wondered why did SO many Chuck Berry covers in the Sun days, not to mention covers of Fats and Ray and the Drifters...I sorta chalked it up to ego.

this is quite right, but even if we put elvis in his correct socio-historical, blah blah context, chances are he might still have been something of an ignorant guy. its true we shouldnt judge him by todays standards, but by that token, we might as well also say it was perfectly fine for all the other surface racism of the time too.

either way, he still made some amazing records.

I don't see how Presley can be called a racist in the same way that your typical southerner of the time can be called racist. The picture of him with Roy Hamilton in Guralnick's book kind of says that he wasn't. People who say that he stole the music of the black people and all that are off the fucking beam, too, because you don't "steal" music. As many writers have pointed out, whites and blacks were doing each other's music before Presley. Did Jimmie Rodgers steal blues? Did Howlin' Wolf steal Jimmie Rodger's yodel? Did Jack Teagarden, a white guy from redneck Texas, steal from Louis Armstrong? This whole argument, in my opinion, just shows how fucked-up Americans are about the whole question, and why music has been so important in making people relax about the whole thing.

Guralnick is too polite to have been Elvis' biographer. Somewhere between Tosches and Guralnick would be perfect, but I don't know who's qualified at this late date in history. That said, Guralnick's Elvis bios are worth reading and I do think he's good on EP at Chips Moman's studio, that era. But there's not enough in those books about Elvis' singing. Check 'em out from the library...

thanks for the tip. i saw the guralnick bio for about 4 pounds the other day in a book shop so ill probably pick it up, seeing as i cant think of any better alternatives for EP bios.

so very wrong

Alex, do you hate history?

In much the same way I bristle at the deification of, say, the Kennedys, Ronald Reagan, Sid Vicious, Kurt Cobain, Tupac & Biggie....I am put off by the revisionist adoration that "the King" enjoys. By the end of his life, the man was a flabby, creatively washed-up junkie. Those that still pray at his alter aren't worth listening to either. So, whether or not the man was a racist doesn't matter. He's gone. Sid Vicious was probably a racist too (in fact, I'd say there's a stronger case to be made there, for those keen on dredging up ancient history). Why no kerfuffle about that?

Why lose sleep over a dead (literally and figuratively) issue?

well, i do see far more ethnic diversity at say, a hip hop, R&B, soul, jazz gig/club than i ever have at a rock gig/club, that is true. i do agree it has altered wider attitudes in general, which is great, and maybe to fans of those genres, perhaps there is more of an understanding (i was going to say tolerance, but thats probably a bit too cynical) between everyone. but outside of that, racism or simple ignorance doesnt just get erased. people dont instantly lose all prejudices because of their musical tastes - i wish that was the case but its not. i mean, werent a lot of skinheads into reggae?

I mean, the man did once famously exclaim that he wanted to die with his hands around a white man's throat.

in other news, eddie hurt otm.

davis made wildly divergent comments to diff't people in diff't contexts. by the end of his life he sort of said any old thing he wanted. i wouldn't ever take one stray comment by davis and attach any meaning to it.

But in some ways Miles Davis was like EP--he consciously kept harking back to relatively simple music throughout his career. Still, he was far more consciously an artist than Elvis, he *experimented*, which is something Elvis basically never did, except maybe on his first recordings, which were, I suppose, experimental in a sense. And I would say that if Davis were a racist--and he was irascible and full of shit about a lot of things--it was because, at least in part, because he was angry that many white people couldn't see that a black man playing jazz music couldn't be as "experimental" or as dedicated to doing new things within the context of an existing art form as someone from the European tradition. That and getting hit over the head while he was taking a smoke break at a club he was playing.

I'm also under no illusions that grooving to black music in any way makes anyone a liberal or a humanist or a non-racist. Blues fans are a great example--you can be patronizing about all this, too. When I was growing up blues was totally alien and declassé, and it took me years to hear it for what it was and to not view it through some racial filter. Once I figured out that Howlin' Wolf and Sonny Boy Wiliamson were rock and roll just like the Stones or somebody, I got it. Maybe that's what Elvis was after? The realization that it was all pretty much the same thing?

god knows if he really hated white people or not, i have no clue, but yes, im pretty sure he did hate the white power structure, so if white people were the visible face of that, then it makes (simplistic/generalising) sense, to therefore hate them for that. i get what youre saying about the subtext of the blues and the need to remind those who would rather sweep under the carpet whats happening in their own city/town. that would probably give fuel to any self-respecting racial provocateur!

I read that as "in his blog" and thought "wow Miles really was ahead of the times".

This must have been a role that touched Elvis deeply because of the fact he was a Melungeon;href="href="http://www.geocities.com/mikenassau/what.htm"> and his family spoke proudly of their Cherokee and Jewish heritage.

The best example is the King of Rock ‘n Roll, Elvis Presley. Both sides of his family originated in the Carolinas and claimed Cherokee and Jewish ancestry. They included family names of White and Bennett, both of which are more associated with the Lumbee Indian tribe than with the Cherokees. "Elvis" is similar to "Elva," a common Melungeon name. Elvis Presley also "looks like a Melungeon." If one thinks of the "young Elvis" picture on the postage stamp, the dark hair and tan skin represent the "Melungeon" look very well. The connection isn’t solid, but the likelihood that he descended from the mixed-race peoples of the Southern Appalachians is strong.

America's racial history and also the racial history of American music and entertainment is never as straight forward as it seems.Just look at the minstrel shows(African American performers also blacked up their faces,Al Jolson was a Jewish American).Carnivals and freak shows(the wild man of Borneo).
Billie Holiday was made to black up to make herself more palatable for audiences,while Nat king Cole was made to lighten his skin with powder.

Yet most Southerners grew up with a great love and respect for their black mammies who had nurtured them since birth,and the South in particular became a hotbed for the mixing of the races,even if mostly shrouded in secrecy.The racial divide was always crossed and Elvis and countless others are a testimony to this.There are many Americans that have African blood and don't even know it.It is possible to have African blood and yet be blonde haired and blue eyed.

Elvis was in many ways a product of his time,place and social background in 20th century America.And whether or not he was a racist,or held rascist opinions is surely know more important than whether he was sexist,homophobic,anti-Semitic or countless other things.Whether or not any of these things should spoil the enjoyment of his music is the real question.The same goes for any artist whose opinions and view-points it would be possible to find questionable for whatever reason.Does it effect the art?.

"elvis was a redneck country boy so racism was par for the course."

I see these two comments, and I wonder if you have any idea what you're talking about.

And Jerry Lee Lewis is psychotic, period. Not just an asshole. He's fucking out of his tree.

But maybe that's not fair.

Didn't Elvis actually have light colored hair naturally? And he just dyed it black because he liked the way that it looked?

I also recall Chuck saying something in an interview years ago that white people have silenced all the great black leaders, going as far to name Malcolm X, who, of course, was shot by a black man. Or is that just more HIS-story??

x-post

And I hope you never ever write lyrics (if you don't already), god forbid somebody misinterpret them.

I do write lyrics and welcome misinterpretations. Matt St Germain and I had a band once called White American that was named after the cheese you get at Subway.

David - to me honest, much of what I write (though not all by a longshot) is me playing devil's advocate because I feel that the very left-leaning ILM takes many 'liberal' issues for granted. Many 'boneheaded' leftist comments go unchallenged around here.

haha i get it, cos people'd be like, "hey you've got a racist band name!" and you'd be all "no, it's from the cheese at subway" and then they'd be all "oh! pass the dutchie."

-- roger adultery (vlad62...), June 22nd, 2004.

I think I'd agree there.

Why?

I see these two comments, and I wonder if you have any idea what you're talking about.<

not sure whats so nonsensical about the first comment. i did see that book reduced for about 3.99 the other day on tottenham court road. do discounted books not exist in your part of the world?

the second comment wasnt entirely serious but ive seen less sensitive comments posted on ILM.

I wouldn't say that - the need to fill countless albums throughout his career resulted in quite a lot of experimentation through the years (tho of course his publishing deal prevented that from going as far as it could've, but still.)

Alex, I don't think deification has anything to do with it. Regardless of your personal opinion on Elvis, surely you don't deny that he is one of the most important figures in 20th century popular music? I mean coming from a purely historical viewpoint, his record sales, pop cultural impact and influence on other musicians is pretty gigantic....so why is it so odd to you that pp, might find merit in a discussion of his viewpoints re: race, especially since his music's impact is so strongly linked with racial issues?

(As for Sid Vicious, well, a) his legacy doesn't have as much to do with race as Presley's does and b) his erhm "erratic" behaviour and The Sex Pistol's entire shtick makes a discussion of whether he was prejudiced against any social group difficult...I still wouldn't say it's worthless tho, go start a thread if the matter interests you!)

I also recall Chuck saying something in an interview years ago that white people have silenced all the great black leaders, going as far to name Malcolm X, who, of course, was shot by a black man. Or is that just more HIS-story??

Yeah hahahaha, dumb ol' Chuck, of course he wouldn't know anything about that now would he?

"Every brother ain't a brother
Cause a black hand
Squeezed on Malcom X the man
The shooting of Huey Newton
From a hand of a Nig who pulled the trig"
-"Welcome To The Terrordome", Public Enemy

x-post. hstencil otm.

Was Miles Davis really experimenting or was he so fucked up the only way he could get an album together was to splice it?

I also like how many left-leaning people love Davis even though he was a brutalizer of women. If a white artist behaved like Davis did, they'd be all over his shit. In fact, his behavior would dominate the discussion, to the exclusion of the music.

By the way, I'm left-leaning. But everyone can be, and most are, racist to some degree. Including Elvis.

Elvis didn't steal anything because music belongs to whoever wants to play it.

And it's more accurate to call early rock, blues, folk, country "rural" rather than black or white music.

Why do so many people think two plus two equals four? Please don't respond with liberal arts degree bullshit quantative analysis theorizing about "if you have two things and you add two more things to 'em then you've got four" or some such nonsense.

racism is racism but they come in different contexts. you come across like the type of person who says 'hey man, we're all equal yunno, cant you black guys stop complaining'.

"Was Miles Davis really experimenting or was he so fucked up the only way he could get an album together was to splice it?"

who cares. he did both brilliantly.

"I also like how many left-leaning people love Davis even though he was a brutalizer of women. If a white artist behaved like Davis did, they'd be all over his shit. In fact, his behavior would dominate the discussion, to the exclusion of the music."

BS. noone is going to condone his shitty attitudes to women. we could be here all day if we named every white rocker whos said something racist over the years.

Why do so many left-leaning folks think blacks and other minorities can't be racist? Please don't respond with liberal arts degree bullshit identity politics theorizing about "power dynamics" or some such nonsense.

Just to make this clear, I definitley think Chuck D has made a lot of racist (most notably anti-semitic) remarks in his career; I just think Roger should study the guy's work more if he wants to point these out.

Miles was a womanizer. He also said he'd love to 'strangle a white boy' if he could get away with it. I couldn't care less. I'd strangle ten white boys if I could get away with it, too. Black ones too. And VengaDan. But then, I don't be playin' no jazz, so everybody's safe for now.

But you don't want to hear about none of that power dynamics bullshit either, do you?

What kind of life do you lead where you can afford to have such strict principles? Will you stop listening to Dizzee Rascal because he may or may not have used up all the toilet paper in the stall once? Get over yourself.

I'm not so sure about that. What about early rock from Los Angeles? New Orleans? They're not rural. I would go with this so far as to say that it's the meeting of rural and city, perhaps. As in Elvis' early career.

Miles Davis, not to belabor this, is, in my opinion, experimental. Putting things together, through tape-splicing, or whatever, and seeing what sticks, would seem to me to be the very essence of the word. It don't matter how you do it or even if you really know what you're doing, as long as it gets done.

Also, I like Elvis Presley a lot, and I like a lot of things that have nothing to do with experimentation. I don't think that it's the sine non qua of good music.

I think the thing that saves Presley and Davis, and others, from charges of simple racism is their dislike of squareness in music. Both were hip people in their own way, and I think that's what lies at the bottom of this discussion. And I certainly do think that talking about power structures and all that "liberal" stuff has something to do with both careers. For better or worse they each had a vision of what you could do with American music (not to get all Ken Burns here). Both had some pretty jive attitudes toward women, undeniably. And toward people of other races. But, to get back to the original question, no, I don't think Elvis was a racist; maybe I'm wrong, but racists didn't cover Big Boy Crudup in 1954, or hire Bill Evans, or admire João Gilberto. In the south these days, from my experience, it is a little different-- I know plenty of racist fools who are white and who "like rap music" and all that, but I'm not sure they invest themselves in it as did Elvis Presley when he DID that music his own way. Complicated, yep, it is.

I'm not so sure about that. What about early rock from Los Angeles? New Orleans? They're not rural. I would go with this so far as to say that it's the meeting of rural and city, perhaps. As in Elvis' early career.

even bluegrass, that most self-consciously "rural" of genres, was really the product of country folk from different regions of the south meeting up in mid-south and midwestern cities (where there were industrial jobs) and playing together.

Dan was so very correct.

That was what was being responed to. GET ONE CLUE

Uh, Roger, I don't think anyone here has said that they'd stop listening to Miles Davis or Elvis Presley if they found out that they're racists. One of the things that many ppl who whine about "pc" attitudes and feminist/racial interpretations of art don't seem to realize is that you can find a work of art morally reprehensible and still admit that it's great, anyway (I mean, Orwell on Waugh to thread). So if unquestionable data came out today that Elvis was a racist, I don't think anyone on this thread who's a fan would throw away all their Elvis records or anything. That doesn't mean that that information wouldn't still be important.

Miles was a womanizer. He also said he'd love to 'strangle a white boy' if he could get away with it. I couldn't care less. I'd strangle ten white boys if I could get away with it, too. Black ones too. And VengaDan. But then, I don't be playin' no jazz, so everybody's safe for now.

You so zany.

Also, frustration over being faced with the same old tired arguments != "FEAR and ignorance", quite the opposite actually. Black people can be racists, too???? Well aw shucks, I had no idea!

Ebert's review of The Searchers says that John Wayne in his personal life 'was notably free of racial prejudice'.

The RIAA, Ascap, BMI, and Metallica (and probably lots more musicians) disagree.