Paul Simon's 'Graceland'

obviously ladysmith black mambazo would have had a very different, way less succesful career without him. it did much to put 'world music' on the cd players and coffee tables of homes across middle engerland.

i dont like that record as a whole much, the one before (hearts and bones) and the one after (rhythm of the saints) especially are like waaaaaaay under-rated and fantastic. it has it's moments.

i was made to study graceland for GCSE music 4 years after it had been released which can't have helped.

The real beef was that he was breaking the UN cultural embargo of South Africa at a time when apartheid was at it's height, and when political protest at it in the west was coming to a head. Doing so, he maybe didn't give explicit credence to Botha's regime but gave the impression of normalcy at a time when it was anything but.

I remember at the time, Rhythm of the Saints got a very good response, but for some reason nobody talks about it now. I also think it's a much better record than Graceland.

Nearly 20 years later on, Ladysmith Black Mambazo's gotten a fair share of props. Clarify the problem with the album that got the spotlight shining in their direction beyond snarky one-liners, I'm interested.

hey geir, check allmusic. in the crucial cases, those 'backing musicians' got publishing. if you're so indignant, go learn their names.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=CASS70305221425&sql=Al68e4j470way

and here: http://onyx.he.net/~hotmoves/LIC/dylan/ds2.html
However, in 1986 he was temporarily blacklisted by the African National Congress and United Nations for breaking the apartheid boycott of South Africa with "Graceland," which was inspired by South Africa dance music and featured the South African group Ladysmith Black Mambazo. But the album was both a critical and popular success, and received the Grammy for 1988 record of the year. More controversy hovered over his short-lived 1998 Broadway musical "Capeman," based on a '50s New York Puerto Rican gang member.

Discuss....

The colonialist narrative is almost a potent as 'Buena Vista Social Club' - white entrepreneur 'discovers' long lost primitive music, conspicuously coded as 'exotic' and 'Other'? Fetishistic to say the least.

I only with he had continued making "traditional" Paul Simon albums. "Hearts And Bones" was his best ever, and he has yet to record a proper followup that is mainly the work of Paul Simon and not just Paul Simon trying to show some talented ethnic musicians to the world.

what if you don't care about the coding? I mean, is the music bad?

I lean towards the former, since I cannot get the songs out of my head (in a good way) without even listening to the freakin' album.

The whole album's good, and the best songs are way better than good.

You're the one saying 'primitive', 'exotic' and 'other', buddy! I don't think that's how the record is received. What has fetishism got to do with it anyway?

At this distance, the album is both a classic and overrated. There is an awful lot of filler on the second side. But the first six songs are among the best Simon has ever written, musically and lyrically. Boy and Graceland, especially, have fabulous lyrics, and Diamonds remains stunningly pretty. Nothing on Rhythm of the Saints or Hearts and Bones -- both of which I like a lot -- really comes close to those.

The colonialism charge is completely misplaced. This was totally different than, say, Joni Mitchell's Jungle Line, where she recorded over loops of field recordings of African drums, and used those sounds as a metaphor for mystery, darkness, man's primitive nature, primal truth, etc. Simon was inspired by a new kind of music he heard, but he was never using it in an objectified way. His use of township jive for hipster New York narratives emphasized the sophistication and (gulp) universality of the music, not its exoticism. He was using African music much the way Kurt Weill used blues in Mahagonny, or Mahler used Chinese music in Das Lied von der Erde, or Cheb Khaled used Irish music in Abdul Qadr, or David Byrne uses Brazilian music all the time, or, for that matter, all of alt-country: acts of cross-cultural engagement and respect, not appropriation.

And, just to make things clear to those who were not around then, Simon bent over backwards to credit his African collaborators at the time. Not just Ladysmith Black Mambazo, but also especially Ray Phiri (guitar) and Baghiti Khumalo (bass), both of whom also contributed to Rhythm of the Saints and toured with Simon for years. But there was never any question that these were Paul Simon songs (except for the one song that was recorded over a pre-existing track). That is part of what gave the project its strangeness and excitement.

Thought two: this-- "His use of township jive for hipster New York narratives emphasized the sophistication and (gulp) universality of the music, not its exoticism. He was using African music much the way Kurt Weill used blues in Mahagonny, or Mahler used Chinese music in Das Lied von der Erde, or Cheb Khaled used Irish music in Abdul Qadr, or David Byrne uses Brazilian music all the time, or, for that matter, all of alt-country: acts of cross-cultural engagement and respect, not appropriation" --is quite right and well put.

Thought three: "Boy in the Bubble" ought to have been a bigger hit than "You Can Call Me Al," but such things can't be helped. I also like "I Know What I Know" and even the one with Linda Rondstadt, "Under African Skies."

Thought four: I agree that Rhythm of the Saints is a fantastic record that is way underrated.

Of course, if you don't like Simon (and I really can't stand Simon & Garfunkel), then this "Graceland" argument is largely moot. I think it and the eponymous debut are his best work.

I've been curious about "Hearts & Bones" for years (I heard the track with Chic the other day), but am afraid it's gonna sound as static and morose as "Rene & Georgette Magritte..." or "Train in the Distance."

Anyway, I don't know--this record annoys me, actually; like many here I like that bass playing. But Paul Simon is a very annoying singer to my ears. Every time I hear this or that awful fucking Ry Cooder Buena Vista Social Club crap, I think back on the Drew Friedman cartoon of Simon and Byrne meetin' up in the jungle, both with their portable tape recorders. Still, Ry Cooder is far more the villain for doing what he did to Cuban music, in my opinion; it's ridiculous, too, that we can't *go* to Cuba easily and find out what's going on there.

I liked "Graceland" aside from the Ronstadt track (she irks me on a number of levels), and saw the '86 show at Radio City (Ladysmith, Masekela, Makeba).

I ask you: is this a government that cares about art?

As for Simon...I'm loath to call Simon a colonialist. Insulting labels are only applicable in the case of failed or flawed art, which Graceland certainly isn't.

The graceleand album whether it is your cup of tea or not is a remarkable album from what I call a genius of a man. He is a phenomenal singer, and I think comments like eddshurts:

Anyway, I don't know--this record annoys me, actually; like many here I like that bass playing. But Paul Simon is a very annoying singer to my ears. Every time I hear this or that awful fucking Ry Cooder Buena Vista Social Club crap, I think back on the Drew Friedman cartoon of Simon and Byrne meetin' up in the jungle, both with their portable tape recorders. Still, Ry Cooder is far more the villain for doing what he did to Cuban music, in my opinion; it's ridiculous, too, that we can't *go* to Cuba easily and find out what's going on there.

Is a bunch of bullcrap ok you dont like it, but he didnt do anything to cuban music its called a striving musician growing and striving for something new and exciting, and succeeding in that too!

Like I said any good musician would have respect for if not love Paul Simon.

ILM: Arguing About Records We Don't Own And May Not Have Even Heard

The Blue Aeroplanes onced covered it, but I never found their version particularly engaging. I'm actually not sure if it was an issue with their cover specifically, or just general fatique with the song.

Matter of fact, they would sound dissapointingly weak then, with the exception of "Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes" and maybe one or two more. The songs were built around the African beats, and they just don't hold up as pure songs the way the songs on his earlier albums did.

Which I why I like consider "Graceland" one of his weakest albums btw.

Generally it is a good way to judge whether a song is good or not. Personally I know it would show very well how those songs are not good.

The best songs work perfectly backed by only a guitar or a piano. Always. This also includes Simon's best songs. Most of which were written in 1982-83 or earlier.

Perhaps that's because he's American.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), May 17th, 2006.

http://www.mywasteofspace.com/heehee.gif

Western music is European.

Legit. pre-release version of a forthcoming release; rare Japanese import; bootleg; or figment of someone's imagination?

http://www.bide-et-musique.com/images/thumb150/1391.jpg

i have to admit i hated the record at the time (flat mate at the time played the fragger to death and killed it for me)

ha, me too! still love love love this album.

Never been a fan of the "Canned orchestra" effect

Rhymin' Simon: Not Welcome in East L.A.

Jambase via Stereogum ran an interview with Steve Berlin of Los Lobos, recounting his band's experience with Mr. Edie Brickell in the studio for the Graceland sessions. It may not be an exact ever a doppelganger to the Don McLean/Andy Breckman experience, but needless to say "American Pie" and "Boy in the Bubble" both will cause some accelerated reflux in this particular throat from hereon:

JAMBASE: Speaking of doing a lot of different records and working with a lot of amazing songwriters, I own a ton of the records that you've done over the years. One, in particular, I'd like to ask you about is Paul Simon's Graceland. I obsessed over that thing when I was young. Do you have anyrecollections of working on it?

STEVE BERLIN: Oh, I have plenty of recollections of working on that one.I don't know if you heard the stories, but it was not a pleasant deal for us. I mean he (Simon) quite literally -- and in no way do I exaggerate whenI say -- he stole the songs from us....And you know, going into it, I had an enormous amount of respect for the guy. The early records were amazing, I loved his solo records, and I truly thought he was one of the greatest gifts to American music that there was.

At the time, we were high on the musical food chain. Paul had just come off One Trick Pony and was kind of floundering. People forget, before Graceland, he was viewed as a colossal failure. He was low. So when we were approached to do it, I was a way bigger fan than anybody else in the band. We got approached by Lenny Waronker and Mo Ostin who ran our record company [Warner Bros.], and this is the way these guys would talk -- "It would mean a lot to the family if you guys would do this for us." And we thought, "Ok well, it's for the family, so we'll do it." It sounds so unbelievably naïve and ridiculous that that would be enough of a reason to go to the studio with him.

We go into the studio, and he had quite literally nothing. I mean, he had no ideas, no concepts, and said, "Well, let's just jam." We said, "We don't really do that." ... Not by accident, not even at soundcheck. We would always just play a song.

... Paul was a very strange guy. Paul's engineer was even stranger than Paul, and he just seemed to have no clue -- no focus, no design, no real nothing. He had just done a few of the African songs that hadn't become songs yet. Those were literally jams. Or what the world came to know and I don't think really got exposed enough, is that those are actually songs by a lot of those artists that he just approved of. So that's kind of what he was doing. It was very patrician, material sort of viewpoint. Like, because I'm gonna put my stamp on it, they're now my songs. But that's literally how he approached this stuff.

I remember he played me the one he did by John Hart, and I know John Hart, the last song on the record. He goes, "Yeah, I did this in Louisiana with this zy decko guy." And he kept saying it over and over. And I remember having to tell him, "Paul, it's pronounced zydeco. It's not zy decko, it's zydeco." I mean that's how incredibly dilettante he was about this stuff. The guy was clueless.

It was ridiculous. I think David starts playing "The Myth of the Fingerprints," or whatever he ended up calling it. That was one of our songs. That year, that was a song we started working on By Light of The Moon. So that was like an existing Lobos sketch of an idea that we had already started doing. I don't think there were any recordings of it, but we had messed around with it. We knew we were gonna do it. It was gonna turn
into a song. Paul goes, "Hey, what's that?" We start playing what we have of it, and it is exactly what you hear on the record. So we're like, "Oh, ok. We'll share this song."

JAMBASE: Good way to get out of the studio, though...

STEVE BERLIN: Yeah. But it was very clear to us, at the moment, we're thinking he's doing one of our songs. It would be like if he did "Will the Wolf Survive?" Literally. A few months later, the record comes out and says "Words and Music by Paul Simon." We were like, "What the fuck is this?" We tried calling him, and we can't find him. Weeks go by and our managers can't find him. We finally track him down and ask him about oursong, and he goes, "Sue me. See what happens."

JAMBASE: What?! Come on...

STEVE BERLIN: That's what he said. He said, "You don't like it? Sue me. You'll see what happens." We were floored. We had no idea. The record comes out, and he's a big hit. Retroactively, he had to give songwriting credit to all the African guys he stole from that were working on it and everyone seemed to forget. But that's the kind of person he is. He's the world's biggest prick, basically.

So we go back to Lenny and say, "Hey listen, you stuck us in the studio with this fucking idiot for two days. We tried to get out of it, you made us stay in there, and then he steals our song?! What the hell?!" And Lenny's always a politician. He made us forget about it long enough that it went away. But to this day, I do not believe we have gotten paid for it. We certainly didn't get songwriting credit for it. And it remains an enormous bone that sticks in our craw. Had he even given us a millionth of what the song and the record became, I think we would have been - if nothing else - much richer, but much happier about the whole thing.

JAMBASE: Have you guys seen him since then?

STEVE BERLIN: No. Never run into him. I'll tell you, if the guys ever did run into him, I wouldn't want to be him, that's for sure.

when I saw this thread revived I knew it was about that! they ahve been telling that story since the album came out but it seems to have gotten more traction lately. I doubt anyone is surprised to find out Paul Simon is a prick

^^^^Not more Vampire Weekend dross?

this thread is hilarious.

Ah yes, that was during the 1986-87 "accordion" craze, when that most ridiculed of musical instruments was suddenly and briefly "hip". People like Simon, J.C. Mellencamp, Los Lobos, Buckwheat Zydeco and others were selling many records and winning Grammys for accordion-drenched LPs. It didn't last long, but it was a fairly interesting development at the time. I never owned "Graceland" but heard it a lot from roommates when I was in school, and still like about half of the uptempo songs, mostly for the amazing fretless bass playing and, yes, the accordion.
-- Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, June 7, 2004 3:16 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Link

um, yeah. "accordion" "craze." all those grammys. even zydeco bands were getting into "accordions" at the time!

and this:

i would like the songs on Graceland if they removed the African beats and kept it to a guy and his guitar.I apologise if this offends anyone because it's meant to be rascist.
-- chevy chase, Tuesday, February 8, 2005 10:16 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Link

classic

still a great album, credit is overrated

Definitely good. Definitely overrated.

I remember at the time, Rhythm of the Saints got a very good response, but for some reason nobody talks about it now. I also think it's a much better record than Graceland.

I always liked that first single from Rhythm Of The Saints -- The Obvious Child -- way better than anything on Graceland.

(M.I.A.'s next cover should definitely be "Boy in the Bubble")

Absolutely not. "I Know What I Know" is the only choice for a M.I.A cover. Besides, "Boy in the Bubble" might touch some sensitive family nerves.

Actually, it's just a bad idea all the way around.

there's no general Paul Simon thread, so maybe this is as good a place as any to post... a coworker inexplicably gave me a copy of Paul Simon's "Songs from the Capeman" awhile back, just got around to listening to it now. In the first song he gets off some really clumsy lyrics but also drops "nigger" and a rather forceful "fucking" in a rather disconcerting manner... not sure why this was such a commercial/critical failure, maybe cuz the subject matter is really kinda dark and bleak and not some happy-go-lucky cheery world music fusion thing that's easy for people to grasp on a surface level (don't get me wrong I know there's dark undercurrents to all his material including Graceland and, I assume, Rhythm of the Saints, but its fairly easy to ignore unless you pay unusually close attention to lyrics).

it is fairly amazing that this guy's voice has basically not changed AT ALL in 40 years

this is kinda good actually - some really beautiful doowop singing on here

yeah this is the only Paul Simon album I've never heard, I think! I should give it a listen.

I love that opening song "Adios Hermanos." It's so thick with storytelling. Main problem with that album/musical was collaborating with Derek Walcott on the rest of the lyrics.

I know this is a "musical" so maybe I should forgive some of the "speaking in character" stuff he lapses into (rolling his r's, etc. although it is kinda funny to hear him spit out "motherfuckers")

should I be blaming Walcott...? There are definitely some decidedly un-subtle, non-Simonish lyrical things going on here.

I haven't gotten into the rest of the album (other than the closer "Trailways Bus" kinda), but I love love how "Adios Hermanos" starts out with those super-long lines like "Gumboots" has, except in character and in a specific time and place, and how it builds into the super-long drawn-out single syllables by the end, and how it's all a cappella.

It's pretty much on par with "Nebraska" as far as songs in which the singer ends up strapped into an electric chair.

this is a totally ugly album (sounds really pretty tho) no wonder his audience didn't bite

sample chorus: "fucking puerto rican dope-dealing punk / get your shit-brown ass outta here"

sounds like it was co-written with this guy
http://www.paul-simon.info/PHP/pictures/thumb2/1062290526_paul-reed(lou%20reed).jpg

It's pretty much on par with "Nebraska" as far as songs in which the singer ends up strapped into an electric chair.

just behind 'ride the lightning' though

lolz great pic of him and Lou

talkin about puerto rican doo wop, i'm sure

("puerto rican doo wop" being the name of a sweet strain of cocaine in the late 70s)

okay, cheeseball me got a little choked up randomly hearing this "Father and Daughter" song off of "Surprise" while swimming with my daughter

It's a good song!

His singing especially: it's self-mocking yet totally sincere.

I had never heard it before but yeah struck me as pretty vintage Simon right off the bat

liked this song except for the cartoony backing vocals ...

This fucking album wow.

otm

rulez

first cd ever owned and I think I want it to be last thing I listen to before I die

It was my soundtrack to this last summer. I kept putting on the song "Graceland" just to hear it alone, and then listening to the whole album anyway. And then I'd listen again.

it has been the soundtrack to so many of my summers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GykbnvufIZE

I remember seeing the Graceland concert film this comes from in Music class back in Kindergarten onward whenever it was time to study "World Music." IIRC we never got to sing any of the songs.

My soundtrack to family car journeys in England. So many good memories.

x post.

growing up, it was such a part of my family holidays in the car. I now have a copy just to repeat the experience with my family.

its a best of Paul Simon CD but 40% of it is Gracelend so I don't feel I'm missing out.

growing up, it was such a part of my family holidays in the car.

Same for me. It always gives me flashbacks to the smell of hire cars and the South of France.

growing up, it was such a part of my family holidays in the car. I now have a copy just to repeat the experience with my family.

ha, me too! I had no idea this was a universal

I didn't grow up with it, but it was the last "family record" we had, coming out just as we stopped being able to do things as a unit. So it's nostalgic, but in a bittersweet sort of way.

Since it was the first CD my family owned (and I think the ONLY pop/rock CD for some time) it was a family experience for me as well - I was still young enough that I would listen to the music my parents liked, and it was an album the whole family seemed to really like.

def universally approved of in my family too

it was the first CD my family owned

Yup! Same here.

lol i think it's the only pop cd my mum owns

haha i didn't really hear this album growing up but when i went on vacation w/ my wife's family in June i must've heard this in the car like 8 times

I have still never heard more than four songs from this album. For some reason, this one totally passed my family by even though I think it would have been right up their alley.

we listened to it on vinyl, made me the indie fukk i am today

After listening to it again and again all summer, and getting kinda weirdly curious about what it would feel like to lose love and have a window to my heart, and then remembering that I'm happily married, I'm not sure what to think of this being a really popular family album, besides that the words must not be listened to very clearly.

what families cant appreciate having windows in their hearts plz

lolz yeah the lyrics on this album are a total downer! par for the course with Simon

Well that was your mother,
And that was your father,
Before you was born dude,
When life was great,
You are the burden, of my generation,
I sure do love you,
But let's get that straight,

what a horrible thing to say to your child

haha, yeah, the narrator of that song is an incredible asshole

yeah its sorta Steely Dan-ish the way it contrasts a really slick, joyful sounding tune with total asshole lyrics

ive always felt guilty for thinking the banter on i know what i know is smooth

Also heard this a lot on family car rides through America's heartland.

OTMFM!

ive always felt guilty for thinking the banter on i know what i know is smooth

Hmmm, I might try "don't I know you from the cinematographer's party?" on the next nice girl I meet and see what reaction it gets.

yeah who would she be to blow against the wind etc

haha cant believe how universal this record is for so many ppl ... i had no idea

for so many ppl's families, i mean ... it was for mine as well

yeah, me too. I remember driving around in the vanagon circa 1987 listening to this tape constantly. It wasn't my fam's first CD -- I think Rhythm of the Saints was!

Seriously, the playing on this is so good! I'm going to make a very embarrassing old man one day, earnestly beseeching some twelve-year-olds and their friends to 'just listen to that fretless bass'.

Mid-80's, this record was guaranteed to show up in two places: (1) right before the first speaker at a rally at my college to protest anything, they'd play it on the PA, and (2) the record collection of every adult lefty in my parents' circle of friends, along with the soundtrack to the Commitments.

srsly ill sound - why dont more musicians fuck w/the fretless

ugh the Commitments, what an abortion of an album

I remember getting totally inordinately upset with people who actually insisted that the Commitments sdtk was better than the original Stax recordings (even tho they are like note-for-note covers!)

the mind boggles

So you guys are saying I should totally hear Graceland some day?

I think nostalgia is probably coloring some people's emotions for this album. It was a hit in my family's van, too, of course.

Dudes from Los Lobos don't have many kind words to say about it, though.

I'd say that it's one of the few records from my childhood that holds up to my nostalgia for it. If that makes sense. There was probably a 10 year stretch where I didn't listen to it at all, but when I did, I loved it in a new way ...

o well the dudes from los lobos in that case

yeah we talked about the dudes from los lobos in that other graceland thread this week.

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

probably cuz Simon's from a previous generation, I assume

I've always found that this is a canonical record for most people my age and older.

yeah it sold, what, 16 million?

maybe the video w/ Chevy Chase wasn't quite as big a moment as those other albums' videos?

srsly ill sound - why dont more musicians fuck w/the fretless

Because the bad ones sound like Paul Young records?

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

In what sense? It didn't half of those three records, though, but shows up on any best of the eighties poll -- and it WAS a big hit, his biggest since S&G.

*It didn't sell half

well I didn't check any sales numbers or anything

just the reactions on this thread are weirdly universal - did every white kid in the 80s listen to this in the car on family vacations or what

Because the bad ones sound like Paul Young records?

this is true, but well done fretless is pretty awesome i must say

No argument.

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:44 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i hav a playlists in my itunes containing 5 each songs from graceland born in the usa and brothers in arms

i think it's a little late to get slotted with those isn't it? I moved back to california in 1987 and I think it came out at least then, if not later. I associate the others with junior high (for me), graceland with later highschool.

agree w/all the sentiments itt. i would add that i bought the remaster a couple months ago and goddamn it sounds slammin

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

It wasn't a singles/videos monster like those records. It only placed three on the hot 100 ("Graceland": 81, "You Can Call Me Al": 22, & "The Boy In The Bubble": 86), altough several other tracks were mere radio hits. I seem to rember reading in some old 80s mags that Graceland was kind of seen as a new model for selling an album in the MTV era around a concept (such as the world beat stuff) instead of having big hits or videos.

I remember "You Can Call Me Al" being huge on Nick Rocks.

Yeah, that one probably had the longest shelf life. Seems like it should have been a bigger hit.

This thread made me dig out my copy of Negotiations and Love Songs (never owned Graceland knew it only from radio and school). Kinda funny that they cut "Graceland" off the cd and tape even though some other tracks were edits and even then the set was just over an hour.

I moved back to california in 1987 and I think it came out at least then, if not later.

?

"You Can Call Me Al" got got number 4 in the UK. I'd kinda assumed it did better in the US.

yeah i recall it being a bit of a phenomenon

video had chevy chase, A+++

yeah who would she be to blow against the wind etc

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 19:07 (3 days ago)

Whenever he sings this line I picture him closing his eyes, grinning sheepishly and doing this corny arms-in-the-wind dance

I'm taking Shakey's prerog and talking about Songs From The Capeman here...Simon doesn't usually write songs that are too long, but "Can I Forgive Him" is a momentum killer, at 6+ minutes. And it's not the simplicity of the arrangement, since both "Killer Wants To Go To College"s are pretty stripped down. Maybe the song needed to be long for its role in the play? "Trailways Bus" is great too. "Can I Forgive Him" aside, the songs where Simon's voice dominates are good, but I don't like the other singers as much on this: too showtunes-y for my tastes, and I don't think Simon wrote very well for those singers' voices. Though José Feliciano on the bonus "Born In Puerto Rico" is excellent; that song is better than most everything on the "real" album.

Seriously, the playing on this is so good! I'm going to make a very embarrassing old man one day, earnestly beseeching some twelve-year-olds and their friends to 'just listen to that fretless bass'.

― Ismael Klata, Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:25 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

^^^^This

like a lot of folks here, this album was ubiquitous in my childhood (at least from age 9 onwards). so much so that i more or less soured on it for decades.

listening to it with fresh ears is interesting. particularly so because i "rediscovered" it after having read a bit about how it was put together -- paul simon improvising lead melodies over what were more or less jams (and in one case a pre-existing backing track). once i acquired that knowledge, i can't listen to the album the same way anymore. it _sounds_ exactly like how it was put together, for ill and (more often) for good. the backing tracks often vamp for many many bars on the same chord, while simon's vocal line supplies a great deal of melodic business. (the major exception that i hear is "under african skies," which sounds more like it was through-composed, although i could be wrong.) so one question is, how assuredly and interestingly does he interact with the rhythms and instrumental 'pockets' of the backing tracks. most of the time it's pretty impressive, although sometimes he sort of ends a line early, not knowing exactly how to extend it rhythmically (e.g. after "hints and allegations"). in general side B is not as strong as side A, but that's true of a lot of records.

i love paul simon, but there's a kind of decorousness across nearly all his work that limits it somewhat for me. a semi-exception is much of his 1972 solo album. i don't know why or how that album transcends some of his limitations -- maybe it's by sustaining a felt, as opposed to theoretical, sense of drift and mystery in some of the tracks (like "armistice day," which apparently simon dismisses these days). maybe i just like it when he relaxes his sense of melody and surrenders to a groove, which he even does a few times on 'graceland.'

anyway.

in sum i like this album a lot but it always makes me dig out my mbaqanga LPs afterwards and those are typically a lot more exciting. /challops

"Graceland" sounds "through-composed."

yeah, absolutely -- it _builds_ in a way the other songs don't.

actually i dunno... the chorus in particular seems like an improvisation over a vamp. the verses less so.

actually i dunno even more... it does sound a lot like a very fixed rhythmic pattern underlying nearly the whole thing, with the vocal melody arriving later and then accented with acoustic guitar, backing vocals, and keyboards to give a more shifting texture.

guess the bonus tracks on the upcoming super deluxe version haven't been announced, but they might shed a little more light onto the creation of the album.

Los Lobos wrote and played on everything and Paul Simon stole their ideas.

well, to be fair, i think ladysmith black mambazo stole from los lobos and then paul simon stole from them. the circle of life, hakuna matata.

paul simon made ladysmith balck mambazo play drums but they didnt want to

little known fact: randy newman's "sail away" is sung from the perspective of paul simon.

Paul Simon kept calling Ladysmith Black Mambazo "Art" and when LBM got annoyed Simon would smile blankly and affably.

Paul Simon enslaved Los Lobos in a burning hot Mexican factory with no windows where they worked 23 hours a day in the summer heat, writing every note of every Paul Simon album at gunpoint under the watchful eyes of guerilla rebels with sawed-off shotguns. Simon repaid their hard, thankless work by murdering their families and raping their children, in that order.

Paul Simon is actually Lou Reed.

Paul Simon made the singers suck his dick
― Mike Hanle y, Monday, December 17, 2001

that los lobos complaint seems a little farfetched to me, i mean if that was paul simon's m.o. we'd have heard much more about it right? he would've been sued a million times.

paul simon prob just decided he didnt like Los lobos

more like los locos amirite?

paul was like: "more like los blow-me-bros"

'los you want credit for what sry I cant hear u will all this money and African music in my ears'

los lobos more like those bozos wont be able to stop me, the great paul simon, from stealing all their cool music and girlfriends

How Will the Wolf Survive? Who cares, I'm Paul Simon.

paul simon killed baby jesus

His Electric Bass is a Terminator Seed

Okay so..

http://www.paulsimon.com/us/graceland25

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/apr/19/paul-simon-graceland-acclaim-outrage

docu looks great. it's showing as a 'Primetime Special' in the States it says here.

Can't wait to see this... especially after Berlinger's work on "Some Kind of Monster"

wish it'd been Paul Simon: Some Kind of Monster

Los Lobos finally break their horrible silence

interesting piece on this album: http://www.firstofthemonth.org/archives/2009/08/at_ease_in_azan.html

ollowing “Homeless,” Simon tells us, “I don’t want no part of this crazy love.” For a record that pretends to reclaim rock-n-roll verities, this is an odd stance. The celebration of crazy love, the crazier the better, has been at the heart of the music. To surrender such nutsiness may be the merest prudence, but it is untrue to the deepest impulses of the music Simon has laid claim to here.

an odd attitude

I don't know what "rock and roll verities" are now or were in 1986.

how the fuck does graceland even have anything to do with rock and roll verities?

what a weird thing to fixate on

token Foucault reference too

When the article concentrates on musicianship it's solid though.

Now, Paul Simon is not to be specially faulted if his last record matters less than the elimination of chattel slavery on this continent.

ok no i can't do this

that "now" comma

ollowing “Homeless,” Simon tells us, “I don’t want no part of this crazy love.” For a record that pretends to reclaim rock-n-roll verities, this is an odd stance. The celebration of crazy love, the crazier the better, has been at the heart of the music. To surrender such nutsiness may be the merest prudence, but it is untrue to the deepest impulses of the music Simon has laid claim to here.

how does someone write this and sleep at night?

the article's at least 80% bullshit, but i find it oddly...compelling, somehow? like, he's got sentence after sentence that makes no apparent sense at all ("the merest prudence"?), yet he retains that weird, arrogant, see-this-is-how-it-really-is attitude throughout. it's like someone crossed armond white with a drunk greil marcus.

the result of that union would have to be put down immediately, i would think, to spare itself and the human race.

i dunno. i think the basic thrust of the article is sound: paul simon used african musicians and music, at a time of great crisis in south africa, in a way that lent an aura of dramatic import and moment to graceland without ever really moving outside the small sphere of his own personal concerns. this may not have been simon's intent (a point conveniently elided), but it was nonetheless the effect. he refused to really engage with the political dimensions of the "material" he was using, choosing instead to throw sops to the idea of political engagement while concentrating more fully on music as music, the political as personal. it's a fair criticism, though not a particularly toothy one in my view.

it's like someone crossed armond white with a drunk greil marcus.

i suggest we kill it before it multiplies

I agree that it's smarter and more riveting than a piece that gets so many things wrong should be. But boy, the howlers.

from Foucault’s conclusion to Madness and Civilization: “The moment when, together, the work of art and madness are born and fulfilled is the beginning of the time when the world finds itself arraigned by that work of art and responsible for what it is.” I don’t think Graceland works that way.)

To surrender such nutsiness may be the merest prudence, but it is untrue to the deepest impulses of the music Simon has laid claim to here.

Anyone who was married to Carrie Fisher has got nothing to prove on the crazy love front.

http://www.thedreamerofmusic.org/BIOGRAPHY/WIVES/image011.jpg
just saw this pic and wondered what in the lord's name was the deal with the hat.

what to do when your roommate doesn't realize you're home and thusly is having loud sex in the living room

i dunno. i think the basic thrust of the article is sound: paul simon used african musicians and music, at a time of great crisis in south africa, in a way that lent an aura of dramatic import and moment to graceland without ever really moving outside the small sphere of his own personal concerns.

this is (a) already nearly conventional wisdom and (b) not very interesting anyway.

Just googled that hat for about 10 minutes to no avail :(

it's like, why so glum, hat-guy! your wife is a total fox!

new Graceland documentary airing on A&E tonight!

This is fascinating: he's so *abstract* about his songwriting; it's about the *patterns* in the rhythms.

it makes sense to me, i've always thought of his stuff as being very driven by rhythm and meter

i've watched that "Diamonds" performance on SNL so many times and i had no idea that they'd booked that appearance before the album release was delayed, and recorded that song while in New York for the show. nobody had ever heard that song before that broadcast! i can't even imagine how exciting that would've been.

whoa that is crazy

Thanks for the tip! Enjoying this.

related: http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=5609

new doc on BBC uk tomorrow http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01kkn74

i just watched the "classic albums" special on this album (on netflix streaming). cool to see how chopped up/edited the whole thing was.

Thanks for the tip, compulsory viewing by the looks.

the new doc was on Irish tv on Saturday night, it's excellent. recommended viewing even if you are already very familiar with the classic albums doc (as I was).

also, this: http://www.kleptones.com/blog/2012/06/28/hectic-city-15-paths-to-graceland/

a creative reconstruction of the mixtape that inspired Simon to go to Africa and make some music

wow that looks great, thanks!

yeah! 1 hour 15 minutes of summery African pop beats.

and "speaking the deep truths that artists speak" as paul simon opines on the bbc clip...

it would be nice if the talking heads didn't get in the way of fine music.

Only had time to check out the first minute of that tape, but I'm sold already - will listen again

finally watching the new doc from the begining--LOVE the early jam version of boy in the bubble

holy shit the part where they go out to lesotho to find the old accordion dude

A friend who's been obsessively listening to Graceland this (antipodean) summer has asked me to throw together a comp of, uh, Graceland-related stuff after I was enthusing about the Todd Terje edit of "Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes", the 12" mix of "The Boy In The Bubble" & Lizzy Mercier Descloux's self-titled album. Apart from combing through Xgau reviews of 80s afropop/digging out my Bhundu Boys and finally getting around to hearing Peter Gabriel's Passion (+ suitable Talking Heads, I guess), what else would fit? That mixtape shaane posted a link to looks fabulous.

I don't think stuff like Talking Heads or Peter Gabriel (neither of whom are as "African" as people claim) would fit at all. I guess I would seek out more specifically South African stuff, like "The Indestructible Beat of Soweto." The Kleptones mix upthread rules.

there are a lot of days where I think the title track is the greatest song ever written.

"as if I didn't know that!
as if I didn't know my own bed!"

then that brief contemplative silence after the outburst, which you can just *hear* even though Simon's voice barely changes...

"as if I'd never noticed the way she brushed her hair from her forehead,
and she said 'losing love is like a window in your heart...'"

it's a very cinematic song. I see the scene in my mind's eye every time I hear it, them driving along in the car, seeing the narrator deep in thought, as his son gazes obliviously out the window.

not many songs I can say all that about.

I always liked the distance of "my traveling companion is nine years old / he is the child of my first marriage" - ie he never says it's "my son."
I like the way it contrasts with the intimacy of the next section detailing his divorce ("As if I didn't know my own bed").

http://africasacountry.com/when-steven-van-zandt-convinced-azapo-to-take-paul-simon-off-a-hit-list-and-what-paul-simon-really-thought-of-nelson-mandela/

Miami Steve Van Zandt and Dave Marsh vs Paul Simon

one excerpt--

He knew more than me, he knew more than Mandela, he knew more than the South African people. His famous line, of course, was, “Art transcends politics.” And I said to him, “All due respect, Paulie, but not only does art not transcend politics… art is politics. And I’m telling you right now, you and Henry Kissinger, your buddy, go fuck yourselves.” Or whatever I said. But he had that attitude, and he knowingly and consciously violated the boycott to publicize his record.

Well, to make his record. That’s the violation of the boycott — to make his record.

Wow, that whole thing.

Paulie

some head-spinning stuff there. most of all Simon dismissing Mandela, then sucking up to him as soon as he's out and free.

still an ace record and I'm so glad it was made.

Paul thought Los Lobos had Russian connections too--Caesar ROJAS anyone?

Goddamn. I know I'm getting Stevie's version here, but Stevie just went up a lot in my esteem and Paul Simon just went down a lot.

"My friend Henry Kissinger told me..."

ha im sure simon is awful or w/e but lil stevies vers doesnt sounds anything like real life

not to mention all the s african musicians who recorded and toured graceland seemed cool w breaking the boycott

anyway the best part is him bargaining for simons life

Yeah, and he actually had the nerve to say, “Well, I paid everybody double-scale.”

While taking the songwriting credits to himself

I knew Dave Marsh had a long-standing feud with Bono, didn't realize he had one versus Paul Simon as well

he has long-standing feuds with Neil Young, God, everyone

Not with Bru$e.

While taking the songwriting credits to himself

erm

Side one
No. Title Writer(s) Length
1. "The Boy in the Bubble" Forere Motloheloa, Paul Simon 3:59
2. "Graceland" Simon 4:48
3. "I Know What I Know" General MD Shirinda, Simon 3:13
4. "Gumboots" Lulu Masilela, Jonhjon Mkhalali, Simon 2:44
5. "Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes" Joseph Shabalala, Simon 5:45
Side two
No. Title Writer(s) Length
6. "You Can Call Me Al" Simon 4:39
7. "Under African Skies" Simon 3:37
8. "Homeless" Shabalala, Simon 3:48
9. "Crazy Love, Vol. II" Simon 4:18
10. "That Was Your Mother" Simon 2:52
11. "All Around the World or the Myth of Fingerprints" Los Lobos, Simon 3:15

I remember the uncredited zydeco musicians and I thought Steve Berlin of Los Lobos grumbling about the credits. I think they all had to push Simon to get their names there.

its true all those black south african musicians living under apartheid used all their clout and access to high powered legal representation to force paul simon to credit them

los lobos do have beef abt this, also he made them play drums?

I will dig up the quotes later

thank God there's somebody to speak up for Paul Simon

its all upthread fwiw

thank god for someone to speak up for everyone important work here all around

Thank you.

In 2009 someone wrote the following, so I am not completely wrong or senile, oh wise lagoon.
Simon’s scrupulousness for sharing credit may not have extended equally to all musicians. The final track of the album, titled “The Myth of Fingerprints”, was recorded with Los Lobos, and while the band is credited as playing on the track, Simon claims authorship of the tune. Steven Berlin of Los Lobos claims that the song was written by the band, and that Simon simply added a vocal on top and stole the song. Simon disputes this, and Los Lobos haven’t taken Simon up on the invitation they allege he made to sue him.)

i said right there lobos had beef with him about it im all over this thread talking about it I said u could find the infos upthread ffs man

I can call you betty and betty when you call me you can call me lag∞n

deal

all the s african musicians who recorded and toured graceland seemed cool w breaking the boycott

Have you read up on this or do you need me to tell you why that alone didn't make it OK?

Striking thing about Simon's statements at the time, whether or not you think he was wrong, is his arrogance and condescension. Suddenly claiming "art transcends politics" when it suits him? Gtfo.

im totally not saying paul simon is a good and righteous person you morons

i mean don't let me get in the way of you being mad at paul simon

i don't believe personally art transends politics

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/1013031/paul-simon-on-the-muppets-o.gif

right before he does that he says "this guitar represents Art Garfunkel and all the people who've tried to fuck with me over the years." one of the harder episodes from mid-80s sesame street

idk maybe the cultural boycott was overall worthwhile but it was undoubtably harsh in that it prevented a lot of people who were already vicitms of apartheid from even being able to work at all

actually, Gonzo was Carrie Fisher's divorce attorney

xp

Interesting post here:

http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2009/04/02/from-protest-to-collaboration-paul-simons-graceland-and-lessons-for-xenophiles/

I guess on theory is that the credit he did give was a desperate attempt at political cover. But who knows?

who knows what lies in the dark heart of simon

lol though I'm not sure that dude's actually heard "do they know it's christmas"

And there won’t be snow in Africa this Christmas time The average gift they’ll get this year is life - See more at: http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2009/04/02/from-protest-to-collaboration-paul-simons-graceland-and-lessons-for-xenophiles/#sthash.UFyjohKY.dpuf

God damn it

And there won’t be snow in Africa this Christmas time
The average gift they’ll get this year is life

(Personally, I think “Sun City” stands up to the test of time significantly better than many of the other benefit songs

yeah no

xp That's a valid criticism of artistic boycotts. My point is that Simon handled it really badly. He asked Belafonte for advice before he went. Belafonte suggested he talk to the ANC first and find a way to do it without hurting the boycott (which technically covered live performances, not recording in SA) and Simon ignored him. Then when it came to defending himself he wobbled between "art isn't political" (disingenuous, given his previous campaigning for eg McGovern), smearing the ANC and claiming he was actually helping SA. He was just too stubborn and arrogant to take other feelings into account.

Which is why Van Zandt's take is interesting. At this remove, it's hard to see how Graceland did any harm and it's a beloved album, so you need people who dealt with him at the time to point out what a dick he was about it.

former hippie liberals becoming cranky me-firsters to line their pockets, not exactly unheard of. I bet Paul is buds with the Clintons too.

yeah he just wanted to jam man, it def seems like his approach was pretty self involved and willfully naive, but on the other hand he did it seems manage to conduct himself in a way that if it didn't comply with the letter of the boycott did with the spirit in that his work didn't benefit ruling regime, which is prob indicative of some greater awareness of the situation

Which is why Van Zandt's take is interesting. At this remove, it's hard to see how Graceland did any harm and it's a beloved album, so you need people who dealt with him at the time to point out what a dick he was about it.

― Deafening silence (DL), Monday, January 27, 2014 10:33 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah idk i would love for him to give a more comprehensive telling of the story, obvs this was very conversational

There are all sorts of stories of Simon's total cultural blindness and self-obsession. What's the one re: "Graceland" where he had never heard of zydeco? He's certainly an opportunist, but count me among those who think "Graceland" did far more good than harm. And after all, Simon never did play "Sun City."

xpost I'm not sure that post claims "Sun City" is a good song, but it's certainly miles better than "Hands Across America" and "We are the World." And at least it's an angry rallying cry, rather than "Do They Know Is Christmas?", which is a horribly patronizing sentiment. And it was inarguably more effective for these artists to publically boycott this South African resort than it was for a million others (and many of the same) to attempt to solve poverty and starvation in Ethiopia by way of song.

Some more details here: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/apr/19/paul-simon-graceland-acclaim-outrage

Meanwhile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltpP6anAVVI

I have a friend who went, and she said it and the rest of the show were absolutely not well received by the lame crowd.

nothing is better than hands across america the concept

Hear 'N Aid's "Stars" is still the best benefit song.

"Sun City" video was worth it for Bono kissing a Fat Boy

http://www.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/legacy/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/reagan-hands-across-america.jpg

Never got the "Sun City" hate. Always loved that song. Can't think of any other record with nearly as mindblowing a lineup.

Yeah, I mean, the fact that it embraced/enlisted so many hip-hop acts alone is pretty OTM.

"We Are the World" is a terrible song too but it allows for the idiosyncracies of performers, first and second tier, while "Sun City" is just a blur with a beat.

See first post here: http://ourrockandrollhalloffame71305.yuku.com/topic/2076/And-The-2014-Inductee-Class-for-the-RRHoF-Is?page=3

The book "The Kingdom of Zydeco" has the story on Simon learning about zydeco, working with zydeco musicians, recording sessions with 3 zydeco bands and taping a Rocking Dopsie zydeco instrumental (that turned out to be based on an old Creole standard) and from that creating the credited just to Simon song "That was Your Mother"

The book discussion is in google books too

so who should he have credited

the celeb benefit song is such a weird terrible format but sun city def has by far the coolest dudes in it

To get off the UN blacklist, all an artist had to do was make a public apology and promise never to play South Africa again. The O'Jays did this, but Ronstadt (and many others) didn't.

xp

x-post to Lagoon-- When Rockie Dopsie wanted credit on the song, that's when apparently Simon's label did research and discovered Dopsie had adapted it from an old Creole standard, and thus Simon made clear to Dopsie that he would lose in a suit. Don't some musicians when they adapt a traditional song, acknowledge that somehow in the credits?

im no expert but id guess the answer is sometimes, but if its an old folk song then its authorship/ownership is communal really

i mean I'm sure it would've been cooler if simian credited him

lol "simian"

hes an animal

rampaging the musical community devoting peoples writing credits

lol at van zandt getting simon off the assassination hit list, he is so connected

idk overall its interesting how much people hate paul simon, id say the case itt is at best half made and relies on some pretty weak sauce, a lot of not so coherent eye witness testimony, reward for lamest is forks claiming simon stole jimmy cliffs band (recorded a song with them) lol

btw i just discovered via wikipedia that whitney houstons mom sings back up on mother and child reunion!

she wrote the song too. simon never credited her though. "I don't give a fucking shit" he said when she complained

50 ways to lose the respect of your fellow artists

youre not seeing both sides tho he did it in order to motivate her to have a super cool daughter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbhcMe4oN1A

paul simon is god and jesus literally

listened to this album 8 times today already. i don't care how it was made and how many people he was an asshole to, it's great.

its so magical

I don't want no part of this crazy love

would take any given 10 seconds of this album over all the holier-than-thou bullshit dave marsh has typed in his entire lifetime

paul and linda ronstadt sound nice on that one song, too bad they both owned beach front villas in sun city back in the 80s

The controversy makes an average album bearable imo

"Under African Skies" is the only track that I'd accuse of colonialism but it's so damn pretty, especially Rondstadt's vocal.

im going to kill u xp

i think the music of the album is great, but i think the production and simon's behaviour re: the boycott of south africa, etc, is at least a little problematic. any of you see the documentary that was recently-ish released about it?

also, bastard stole annie hall from alvy singer. NEVA FORGET.

and I can say wee-oooh-weee-oooh and for all practical purposes it would be legally binding
I mean for all practical and foreseeable purposes it'd be legally binding

annie hall was my favourite film when I was 16 and I didn't even know simon was in it! shame on me for a thousand years.

xpost

I saw the documentary p good and interesting, obvs portrays ps in a favorable light

More than the politics, I'm fascinated by Simon's ability to piss people off. He's not exactly Lou Reed or even Ray Davies but there's a prickly charmlessness which spoilt his live show for me and maybe explains why he made so enemies over Graceland. And yet he's the most extraordinarily humane and insightful lyricist - it doesn't add up.

unless someone else wrote them too

you're right, it doesn't add up.

my god. son of a bitch didn't even write the lyrics, did he?

Los Lobos wrote most of his best lyrics iirc

extraordinary artist, ordinary person

were you at the hyde park show a few years back, DL? where PS kept disappearing from the stage, to be replaced by, say, Jimmy Cliff for a couple of songs? was bizarre.

where are the bodies, simon!?

he had to leave the stage periodically to steal more music xp

paul simon monster

i bet all that cocaine he did in the 70s wasnt even his

Woody allen wrote the lyrics, simon killed paul

if indeed that is his real name

Thanks for clearing this up guys. Now can someone find me the demo of The Only Living Boy in New York with the real PS lyric? "Fuck off to Mexico and make your fucking movie/You talentless hack/But don't expect me to keep carrying your sorry ass/When you get back."

"so long frank lloyd wright (i'm about to kill you)"

wait Paul Simon killed John Lennon?

re: Sun City album

EMI Thorne was busy selling riot-control cattle prods to the SA police at the same time they were making money off of the Sun City album. they spun the weapons division off later, but iirc at the time is was still under the same corporate roof. that might not make a difference to the "I just like the music" types, but I always saw that album as a perfect example of well meaning liberal hypocrisy that ends up supporting what it claims to be against.

'go jump off a bridge into troubled waters'

'for emily (although they'll never find her)'

xp That's not hypocrisy unless you think the weapons division approved the record - that's different arms of a conglomerate behaving in different ways and doesn't reflect badly at all on Van Zandt.

who do you guys hate worse

paul simon

robbee roberston

and surely the record's intention was to spread word abt south africa anyway, which it succeeded in doing.

he says paid them *triple* scale in an interview with UNCUT last year, so if Van Zandt can't even get that fact correct, i dunno..

it was just a ploy tho to make himself seem like not an asshole... which he definitely is

btw

While taking the songwriting credits to himself

erm

Side one
No. Title Writer(s) Length
1. "The Boy in the Bubble" Forere Motloheloa, Paul Simon 3:59
2. "Graceland" Simon 4:48
3. "I Know What I Know" General MD Shirinda, Simon 3:13
4. "Gumboots" Lulu Masilela, Jonhjon Mkhalali, Simon 2:44
5. "Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes" Joseph Shabalala, Simon 5:45
Side two
No. Title Writer(s) Length
6. "You Can Call Me Al" Simon 4:39
7. "Under African Skies" Simon 3:37
8. "Homeless" Shabalala, Simon 3:48
9. "Crazy Love, Vol. II" Simon 4:18
10. "That Was Your Mother" Simon 2:52
11. "All Around the World or the Myth of Fingerprints" Los Lobos, Simon 3:15

― lag∞n, Monday, January 27, 2014 2:26 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

perhaps worth noting that OG pressing of Graceland didn't credit Los Lobos for writing music to Myth of Fingerprints - did this happen later?

http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-373375-1289409207.jpeg

http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-373375-1289409207.jpeg

has anybody confirmed these pay claims of Simon's or is it just well we asked him and he says he paid the shit outta those ingrates

"he said he heard it from his friend henry kissinger" is my favorite unsourced bit of character assassination literally ever

perhaps worth noting that OG pressing of Graceland didn't credit Los Lobos for writing music to Myth of Fingerprints - did this happen later?

ha no p sure someone was just monkeying around on wikipedia

probably los lobos

i want to say one word to you, just one word:buzzfeed (difficult listening hour)
Posted: January 27, 2014 at 7:22:00 PM
"he said he heard it from his friend henry kissinger" is my favorite unsourced bit of character assassination literally ever

lol yes virtuoso shit

did paul simon even write la bamba

I did used to think that was Paul Simon on the cover of the La Bamba soundtrack when I was a little kid.

forbidden link, he's killed them already

no fingerprints were ever found, it was a myth

still so fucking crazy after all these years

I always thought it was a coincidence that call me al was an anagram of la bamba

wish that synth/horn hook in "You Can Call Me Al" would go on forever and ever.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/983970/paul-simon-you-can-call-me-al-o.gif

Paul Simon as six-string bass sessioneer

yesss.

Serious question - have there ever been any similar claims about songwriting around Rhythm of the Saints? He must have brought people in for that album in the same way, no? Or is there just something special about attaching villainy to Graceland's making?

TROTS, as much as I love it, sounds like he grafted Brazilian percussion onto acoustic demos, while the Graceland compositions integrate their source material and inspirations.

Did Butt Rash get credit for his contribution to 'Allergies'?

x-post-
Vincent Nguini, who collaborated with Simon om much of Rhythm of the Saints has also been in Simon's traveling band since. He gets credit on some TROTS songs but not others. But yes, neither he nor the others seem to have complained this time. The manner of recording and the usage of the sounds is arguably different.

http://www.americansongwriter.com/2011/10/interview-paul-simon-discusses-songwriter-and-songwriting/

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/04/rhymin-simon-no.html Steve Berlin of Los Lobos

Hey, btw, Paul Simon is touring with Sting.

that's the kind of shit that will get you a UN blacklist

That and giving Ban Ki-Moon a credit on 'cars are cars'

give henry ford credit imo

Ah, helpful info.

Hey, btw, Paul Simon is touring with Sting.

this is what's kinda weird to me - people here rep hard for Graceland, it seems to me - like in a "you are fronting if you don't concede it's great" way. but fuckin'...dude touring with Sting is basically perfect. they are the same kind of songwriter. I have some love for stuff by both of them, but Simon's elevation to The Guy Who Wrote This Incredible Shit level is weird to me. He's real good sometimes. That's about it. So's Sting. But I can't imagine anybody jumping down any throats if somebody said you know what Sting sucks ass

Be srs

this is what's kinda weird to me - people here rep hard for Graceland, it seems to me - like in a "you are fronting if you don't concede it's great" way. but fuckin'...dude touring with Sting is basically perfect. they are the same kind of songwriter. I have some love for stuff by both of them, but Simon's elevation to The Guy Who Wrote This Incredible Shit level is weird to me. He's real good sometimes. That's about it. So's Sting. But I can't imagine anybody jumping down any throats if somebody said you know what Sting sucks ass

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/really_house_of_cards.gif

aero throwin down the gauntlet

fwiw I hate the Police and Sting and everything they ever did so comparison to Simon is pretty odious to my ears

I'm not gonna deny they occupy the same cultural space/audience demo but who cares about that

Nah, I like Sting a lot, but he's not, in my opinion, on the same level as Simon who wrote all of S&G's (excellent) stuff and in addition to that created a respectable body of solo work. Sting wrote a lot of good stuff for the Police, but only had a nice couple of solo albums before getting stuck in AC sludge. Which is a shame, because Sting could have done some really interesting "world" music like Simon did (example: "I Burn for You"), but he...didn't.

Still, it's a show I'd think about going to see.

Sting certainly never created a Graceland, and while neither Simon & Garfunkel nor the Police tended to create great, cohesive albums, both their final efforts (Bridge Over Troubled Water & Synchronicity) come closest, but the former blows the latter away because it's not bogged down by bizarre and disjointed Garfunkel compositions, while the latter definitely suffers from "Mother".

sting is awesome, paul simon is even awesomer, i hope the keep stealing rad music until the polar ice caps melt and we all get eaten by merfolk

mother does nothing but help synchronicity

I can see why people would think that, but it's never done anything for me. Don't know why, but perhaps I'll revisit it someday.

i much prefer simon but

http://www.paul-simon.info/PHP/pictures/thumb2/755_AnnieHall.jpg
vs
http://vaginacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/GF-Needed-Remakes-Image-2.jpg

not a fierce contest

yeah, one worked w/ david lynch and the other one's palling around w/ child molesters and war criminals

war criminals

b-b-b-ut Sting invited Stewart Copeland to his palazzo!

dude touring with Sting is basically perfect. they are the same kind of songwriter.

I can't tell if this post is ironic or not, but you do know that Simon has also toured with Dylan, right?

Sting played Macheath on B'way, Simon wrote a flop B'way musical

I can't tell if this post is ironic or not, but you do know that Simon has also toured with Dylan, right?

so has My Morning Jacket

Eliding the fact that while sting has done a lot if things, he hasn't done any of them particularly well. His output is just loathsome all around.

Tantric loathsome?

capeman is an incredible album

sting toured w/ the dead

whereas these days Dylan tours as if he were dead

dylan toured w/ the dead

bruce hornsby was in the dead

lenny bruce is still dead

bela lugosi's dead

Bela Fleck jammed with Jerry.

(Of the Dead)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAgd9Ijw6WI

siick

Marcello doesn't like the record:

http://nobilliards.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/paul-simon-graceland.html

f that noise

Graceland is one of my favorite albums ever I won't listen to alternative opinions under any circumstances so there

otm

also for everyone whos been getting all cultural studies on it since the 80s um whatever yr facts are backwards

unbelievable quantities of point-missing occurring in that blog post

not so unbelievable if you've read any of the others tbh

I guess 28 years was long enough to let this album hang around without listening to it (for the longest time, I've only known You Can Call Me Al and Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes and nothing else). Everybody was right. This is great!

:D

http://i.imgur.com/xg69kD8.png

Hall of Fame:

what was the controversy again, dq? was it that Ladysmith Black Mambazo weren't paid for appearing on the album or something?
― rener, Sunday, December 16, 2001 7:00 PM (12 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Paul Simon made the singers suck his dick
― Mike Hanle y, Monday, December 17, 2001 7:00 PM (12 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Glad to have you among us JF!

There can never be too many articles about what a piece of shit Paul Simon is...
http://www.rockcellarmagazine.com/2012/07/17/viva-los-lobos-interview-with-steve-berlin-2/#sthash.Q9acF4rp.UyTOO1JH.dpbs

RCM: What did Waronker say?

SB: He said, “Stay a little longer. I know he’s a weird guy but just hang in there. He’s got some great ideas. It’ll get better – you just have to wait him out. He’s not an easy guy, I know.” So we stayed in there and it was just more of the same. We were booked for three days, but after the first day we said, “Okay, we’re done. There’s no way we’re coming back to this bullshit!”

And again, Lenny reached out to us and said, “Look, we really want you to do this – this is going to be a really important record for Paul.” And we’re like, “No fucking way! This guy’s a fucking idiot! He doesn’t know what he’s doing and doesn’t know what the fuck he wants. The guy is crazy.” It was such an uncomfortable environment. And I remember Lenny saying, “Come on, it’s for the family. You got to do it for the family!”

RCM: What did he mean by “the family?”

SB: Y’know, the Warner Bros. family. So how fucking stupid were we, going back in for the second day for just more of the same bullshit. At that point it’s just a standoff. Paul has no fucking ideas, we hate him, and feel like we’re being forced to be there against our will. We’re just standing there thinking, “What in the world are we doing here?”

There’s this uncomfortable silence and then Dave starts playing what would become The Myth of Fingerprints, because it was a song we were preparing for our next record. We’d been waiting around for two days for Paul to come up with something, but he had nothing. So to have something to do, we just started playing what we thought was our song, when Paul suddenly says, “Hey, that’s cool. What is that?” And we said, “Oh, it’s a song we’ve been working on.” He goes, “Hey, can we do that?” and we just thought, “Yeah — if it will get us out of this fucking studio!” So we started playing it and captured a take of it and finally escaped and thought, “Thank god this is over with!”

RCM: But you were never credited on the album, right?

SB: It was six months later the record comes out and we said, “Oh, look at this: words and music by Paul Simon.” We thought, “Well, obviously that’s a mistake.” So we called up Lenny and the record company people that we had for Paul and asked them to fix the mistake.

RCM: What was their response?

SB: Silence, silence, silence. We’re asking and asking, then finally six months later we hear from Paul and he says, “Sue me. See what happens.” That’s a direct quote, so that gives you an indication of what kind of guy he is.

hmm.

At least he didn't make them suck his dick.

are they still on this shit?

What play is he referring to? The Caveman didn't flop until the late nineties. Does he mean One Trick Pony? Also, my tape copy of Graceland bought in the late eighties shows Simon giving songwriting credit to many of the African musicians. I'm not playing Capn Save a Simon but this story always comes up and people give Los Lobos the benefit of the doubt.

find it hard to believe that a band like Los Lobos can be bullied into kicking around a studio when they didn't want to.

https://theperfectipodcollection.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/los-lobos.jpg

i really hate this record, so i'm open to the idea that it was made by an insufferable jackass.

btw the year-long awkward silence after the dick-sucking joke at the start of this thread is priceless

From upthread, "Sting certainly never created a Graceland" - maybe Dream of the Blue Turtles approaches? The Stingster owes as much to Omar Hakim and B. Marsalis as Simon owes to Kumalo.

Oh and also to upthread - the rough drafts of the stuff from Rhythm of the Saints (I'm thinking of "The Coast" and "Spirit Voices") are alarmingly good. They were bonus tracks on some collection or other, and they include early versions of the words. Sure, I know he killed Nelson Mandela and made Los Lobos suck his dick, but the dude threw away better lyrics than a lot of people ever come up with.

And melodies, melodies, melodies.

the knots ppl twist them in in order to justify hating paul simon

1. thinking los lobos stories are convincing and good and not a massive self pwn
2. saying graceland is like cultural imperialism
3. thinking paul simons music is very bad and without merit
4. becoming very passionate about the idea of paul simon being a bad person

like its ok u can just dislike paul simon and then move on with yr life i dont think anyone demands you have a theory of why paul simon is bad and hated

I like Los Lobos and Paul Simon a lot, tend to believe there story there. nonetheless, they never wrote a lyric as great as the Myth of Fingerprints, and I don't really care how hard Simon is to work with/how much of an asshole he is.

Good for you Outic no longer caring about people you think are asses, I thought that was your big thing usually.

soyrev - if u don't like graceland you don't like southern african music, the musicianship is godly

los lobos contribution is the weakest on the album anyway it would've been better without that track and worth not much at all without Paul's lyrics and melody

And again, Lenny reached out to us and said, “Look, we really want you to do this – this is going to be a really important record for Paul.” And we’re like, “No fucking way! This guy’s a fucking idiot! He doesn’t know what he’s doing and doesn’t know what the fuck he wants. The guy is crazy.” It was such an uncomfortable environment. And I remember Lenny saying, “Come on, it’s for the family. You got to do it for the family

lol remember when he made them play drums

Paul has no fucking ideas, we hate him, and feel like we’re being forced to be there against our will. We’re just standing there thinking, “What in the world are we doing here?”

it is is p funny that he gave everyone except los lobos writing credits

but anyway their stories abt the recording process do not have a high degree of verisimilitude

I ended up sympathizing with Simon behind the studio glass, avoiding them.

i mean maybe they did write the song but just their descriptions of human interactions to not sound like real life

maybe because they are "lobos" (wolves"

tru

its all good i support los lobos jihad against paul simon but i prefer if they wld include the story about the drummer who didnt want to play drums anymore every time

"soyrev - if u don't like graceland you don't like southern african music, the musicianship is godly"

i'm pretty sure it's precisely because i like southern african music that i don't like graceland. i first heard the album in the context of a class called Sub-Saharan African Music (taught by michael veal, a onetime touring bassist for fela and author of an incredible book on dub, without a doubt the single most music-comprehending mind i've ever met; irrelevant to topic at hand but i can never pass up an opportunity to prostrate myself in his honor, seriously get his dub book if you have any interest in the genre or good music writing), and it sounded like such banal shit in comparison to the source music. and yes, i'm seldom one to cry "cultural imperialism" when it comes to music, but that aspect of the album seemed written all over the face of these songs in a really gross, craven way. (w/e w/r/t musicianship, btw, that much is nearly a given when it comes to african music that actually made it to wax in its time.)

i'm impressed with lag8n's logic though, i never would have guessed paul simon had his own proto-directioners.

so uncomfortable playing drums

i'm impressed with lag8n's logic though, i never would have guessed paul simon had his own proto-directioners.

― soyrev, Friday, April 10, 2015 11:43 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oy a logic man i see, very good, very nice

thx for the Veal rec, hadn't heard of that book before

man, it is so good. i remember noticing a lot of the amazon reviews complained about how technical it is, but i don't think that's the case and kind of doubt someone else on ILM would find that a problem anyway.

Also, my tape copy of Graceland bought in the late eighties shows Simon giving songwriting credit to many of the African musicians.

iirc, this was retroactive. The initial pressing(s?) gave sole credit to Simon.

p sure ur just making that up

While I'm not a fan of this record, I don't think it's a pile of shit, nor does my view of Simon as a person affect my enjoyment of his work, generally speaking. But I do remember hearing at the time that Simon had to change the credits (and of course I can't find a link to anything supporting that).

But wrt Los Lobos/Steve Berlin, they only brought up the dustup when asked about it. It's not like they went out of their way to make sure everyone knew about Simon's thievery.

(and Simon's response is hilarious: "there was no mention of 'joint writing.'" "Hey, you guys never told me that I didn't write that song of yours, so I just assumed I wrote it.")

los lobos talk abt it like constantly

From 1986 to 2008, they didn't say anything publicly about it. Steve Berlin has since been interviewed two or three times since, and has been asked about it every time.

So, not exactly "constantly."

paul should give them a writing credit

on 'Cars Are Cars'

"we're jamming with Paul Simon on a song WE wrote" vs "we're jamming with Paul so he took the songwriting credit" is too thin for me to care about Los Lobos' complaints. It's a he-said/he-said scenario.

or rather "we're jamming with Paul AND he took the songwriting credit"

there's some really weird thought process going on in this thread. i have no way of verifying los lobos' side of the story and my stated interest in believing them was merely a joke (i hate this album either way), but it's pretty clear they never said "we jammed with Paul and he took all credit." it was, "we played a finished song of ours in front of him, he wanted to sing new words on it, he sang new words on it, and he took all credit."

Right – it's their word against his that they brought a finished song.

Loudest truth bomb of the last month:

When I become Emperor I will ban all songwriting credits from ever being published

― 龜, Sunday, April 5, 2015 11:05 AM

One more recommendation for Michael Veal's dub book (Amazon link); his Fela book (Amazon link) is really good, too.

I like the album, but I also think there could be some truth to the allegations. Also, Los Lobos weren't the only ones complaining re song credits on this:

The book "The Kingdom of Zydeco" has the story on Simon learning about zydeco, working with zydeco musicians, recording sessions with 3 zydeco bands and taping a Rocking Dopsie zydeco instrumental (that turned out to be based on an old Creole standard) and from that creating the credited just to Simon song "That was Your Mother"

The book discussion is in google books too

― curmudgeon, Monday, January 27, 2014 4:00 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so who should he have credited

― lag∞n, Monday, January 27, 2014 4:

When Rockin Dopsie complained that he should have gotten a credit, is when Simon's lawyer said Dopsie's song was taken from an old Creole standard and therefore if Dopsie tried to challenge Simon in court they would bring that up.

so who should he have credited

― lag∞n, Monday, January 27, 2014 4:

probably safe to just credit every American song ever written to "anonymous black guy"

When Rockin Dopsie complained that he should have gotten a credit, is when Simon's lawyer said Dopsie's song was taken from an old Creole standard and therefore if Dopsie tried to challenge Simon in court they would bring that up.

― curmudgeon, Friday, April 10, 2015 1:38 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the funniest part of the Steve Berlin interview:

I remember he played me the one he did by John Hart, and I know John Hart, the last song on the record. He goes, "Yeah, I did this in Louisiana with this zy decko guy." And he kept saying it over and over. And I remember having to tell him, "Paul, it's pronounced zydeco. It's not zy decko, it's zydeco." I mean that's how incredibly dilettante he was about this stuff. The guy was clueless.

Songwriters Paul Simon and Zy Decko

^^On that tip, I seem to recall an interview with Simon where he was pushed about the Los Lobos thing, and he kept mentioning how David HILLDEGGER had never confronted him about it.

I would be curious to read a Hidalgo compare/contrast re: working w Simon vs. working w Dylan

its cool how paul simons huge deficit in musical knowledge compared to los lobos doesnt prevent him from making far superior music, almost like this noise doesnt really matter

i mean obvs i have sympathy for it mattering to the ppl actually involved, ppl building a war crimes case against paul simon... lol at u

Dilettante that I am, I mispronounced "superfluous" for years.

i'm pretty sure it's precisely because i like southern african music that i don't like graceland. i first heard the album in the context of a class called Sub-Saharan African Music (taught by michael veal, a onetime touring bassist for fela and author of an incredible book on dub, without a doubt the single most music-comprehending mind i've ever met; irrelevant to topic at hand but i can never pass up an opportunity to prostrate myself in his honor, seriously get his dub book if you have any interest in the genre or good music writing), and it sounded like such banal shit in comparison to the source music. and yes, i'm seldom one to cry "cultural imperialism" when it comes to music, but that aspect of the album seemed written all over the face of these songs in a really gross, craven way. (w/e w/r/t musicianship, btw, that much is nearly a given when it comes to african music that actually made it to wax in its time.)

― soyrev,

I am surprised by this, as PS did not anything much to change what the musicians would normally do.

the album was created via extensive non directed jam sessions iirc, Paul just told them to play anything

ya watch the doc its pretty sweet

I like that a song called "The Myth of Fingerprints" is the subject of endless authorship dispute. If Jonathan Lethem or somebody put that in a book, it would seem way too on the nose.

Over the mountain, down in the valley, live some bitter Los Lobos

lmao

there was no doubt about it
it was the myth of collaboration

iirc, this was retroactive. The initial pressing(s?) gave sole credit to Simon.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 10 April 2015 15:59 (5 hours ago) Permalink

p sure ur just making that up

― lag∞n, Friday, 10 April 2015 16:15 (4 hours ago) Permalink

I had to check this out on Discogs (which has scans of the sleeves and labels of different pressings) and I can see no change in writing credits from American pressings in 1986 until now.

The idea of my hating Graceland and So (they will always be associated to me) is like hating Santa

XP Wasn't the album release held up because of the credits issue?

tbf to Los Lobos getting screwed out of a writing credit is kind of a huge deal for such a big-selling album as Graceland turned out to be. that's a lot of publishing royalties they got fucked out of.

"I am surprised by this, as PS did not anything much to change what the musicians would normally do."

as the architect/director for his own album, i think he simply had bad taste in terms of musical selection (and in his own songwriting, which, despite his collaborators' complaints, i'm sure happened plenty). and obviously, paul simon singing paul simon over the top is quite different from what those musicians would normally do.

and yeah, Outic, not really sure why there are apparently many people whom their story deserves contempt and disbelief. if you want to raise the argument that we will never know who really did what, that's fine. but to mock a band for caring about not getting credited on one of the major album events of its decade, and "always bringing it up" when asked about it, seems like something i don't normally see outside of k-pop fandoms.

so if i have this right, you're saying it would be better if paul simon had recruited a bunch of k-pop musicians

nope. korean pop was horrible in the '80s.

if you have this right, maybe paul simon should not have made an album at all. :D

Watching the Willie Nelson tribute concert on PBS w/my Dad and Paul Simon comes on with Buckwheat Zydeco and I'm wondering if Simon ever learned to say 'Zydeco' correctly and did he make the band suck his dick before going onstage.

Ray Phiri RIP

Christ, the first three posts of this thread!

sad news about ray :(

Phiri was only 70. Lung cancer...

Aw.

Seems like club Graceland would be a good one to drop at a multi-generational wedding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaq-tZZZbFQ

1. “Homeless (Joris Voorn Final Remix)”
2. “Gumboots (Joyce Muniz Remix)”
3. “I Know What I Know (Sharam’s Motherland Mix)”
4. “Crazy Love, Vol. II (Paul Oakenfold Extended Remix)”
5. “The Boy in the Bubble (Richy Ahmed Remix)”
6. “You Can Call Me Al (Groove Armada Dub Redemption)”
7. “Under African Skies (Rich Pinder/Djoko Vocal Mix)”
8. “Graceland (MK’s KC Lights Remix)”
9. “That Was Your Mother (Gui Boratto Remix)”
10. “Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes (Thievery Corporation Remix)”
11. “All Around the World or the Myth of Fingerprints (Photek Remix)”
12. “Homeless (Joris Voorn Kitchen Table Mix / The Duke of New York’s Edit)”

It may be hard for younger folks to appreciate what a big deal this album was when it was released (because albums don’t have that sort of impact anymore). Everyone listened to it — adults, kids — I remember the songs being everywhere, like it just permeated the culture for a solid year.

'You Can Call Me Al' was particularly huge. I have more memories of the Rhythm of the Saints period.

The Rhythm of the Saints was big in the States but was huge in England, no?

#1

Everyone listened to it — adults, kids — I remember the songs being everywhere, like it just permeated the culture for a solid year.

I probably mentioned this upthread, but in elementary school music class, the concert film was part of the "World Music" unit we were taught.

Yeah, it went to #1 here - it didn't yield a single as big as 'You Can Call Me Al', though. 'The Obvious Child' got quite heavy airplay and I saw the video on TV with the drummers quite a lot - more than it's highest position of #15 would suggest - and I remember a shitload of publicity surrounding the album and tour. I seem to remember the video to 'Proof' a fair bit, too.

(x-post to Soto)

In fact, even now I'll choose to listen to Saints over Graceland nine times out of ten. 'The Coast' is one of my favourite things he's done ever.

I prefer it too but the differences are irrelevant.