simon reynolds reviews 679's grime comp 'run the road' for the observer

so who's got 679's new grime comp - run the road?

ok, i didnt read the first part of this sentence properly.

Also, as with every other musical sub-genre that has sprung up in the last 15 years, how is it that Reynolds seems to be the first journo to attempt to capture the first wind of something and champion, whether it good or bad, or not even a genre to start with???

Personally, I think grime is a more tokenist brand than anything before it. Really!... you can go back to many points in UK hip-hop and brand it "grime" (what of Shut Up & Dance, London Posse, Hijack, Cash Crew, etc..etc).

I like to be ahead of the commerical game and strike early in a genre's birth, but, c'mon, grime? Is that the best "you" can do?

reynolds maybe the first journalist to use brand it "grime" (and i dont think he is) but that doesnt mean he invented the term! genre names have a life outside of the press, a style of music doesnt need to be validated by an artcile to give it official recognition. the term "grime" came from within the scene and people using it now outside the scene (eg us, journos etc) are doing so because the people making the music and involved started off calling it that. i remember when people moved from garage to "grimey garage", and from then on it just got truncated. its not the best "you" could do, because "you" didnt do it.

by the way, i know he doesnt like hip hop

sheer idiocy - read some of the man's work rather than spouting nonsense that you read on the internet. he's actually quite a big fan.

isn't there any irony somewhere as I'm sure Reynolds' is American

no he's not. he's english.

Personally, I think grime is a more tokenist brand than anything before it. Really!... you can go back to many points in UK hip-hop and brand it "grime" (what of Shut Up & Dance, London Posse, Hijack, Cash Crew, etc..etc).

ummm... this is quite mental. it's an important and fertile scene in london and no shut up and dance cannot be labelled as grime. the name has been pretty much accepted and it's a very specific brand of mc-led urban music (not quite hip-hop, not quite garage, not dancehall but with roots in all the above).

hardcore - SUAD/ragga twins -> jungle -> grime

most grime artists claim jungle and UKG as equal parents to the scene/music.

it was listening to Gunshot's 'Apocalypse Bass' that actually got me thinking 'woah this could almost be now' but perhaps i was just hearing what i wanted to hear (i haven't heard THAT much grime after all)

Sure, it might throw up some classics within the next year (as every sub-genre does) but it is hardly the movement that UK journos like to hype up; especially when you still hear the influence that trip hop, 'Ardkore, breakbeat or early drum'n'bass in tracks even today!

Grime is a cast-off to any urban form before it but, ultimately, it will wither on this never-ending, name-brand vine.

Oh yes it does.

Sure, it might throw up some classics within the next year (as every sub-genre does) but it is hardly the movement that UK journos like to hype up

Oh yes it is.

Grime is a cast-off to any urban form before it but, ultimately, it will wither on this never-ending, name-brand vine.

Oh no it won't.

Have you heard the recent Dizzee record? Have you ears?

who gives a shit? stop reading mags and blogs! stop confusing discussion of the music wit hthe music itself!

oh no, its a really short lived genre! that immediately invalidates it! i want it to do, real soon! things that drag on are often (thoughb not always)...a drag! i can fully guarantee (although i have been saying this for a couple of yeasr now) that in 6 months/1 year/3 years time i will be into something else, and although just cos i am into it doesnt signify whether its relevant, what i am saying is dont get so hung up on how long it is going to be around., that isnt a relevant criticism in my mind.

I'm English and never have I pissed my pants as much as reading this junk.

Like UKG and drum and bass before it, a few names from the 'grime' scene (inverted commas because those at the peak of it don't want to claim that as a badge) will go on to more traditional and mainstream friendly things and then the rest with wither away before the next new 'urban' thing comes up.

It's all so tiresome.

Hip-hop changed the world - grime won't even change London.

Apart from the fact that this isn't actually true, why the fuck should it matter whether grime 'changes the world'? Jesus what a hoary old rockist chestnut. Grime is important to the people who make it, the people who listen to it, all these people living it. That's why it's amazing, not whether the creaky old mainstream rock press picks up on it and sends it stratospheric.

Who are these people who love every single thing about grime unreservedly? They don't post here, as far as I can tell. We do have our fair share of irritating devil's advocate types without any semblance of a point , though...

nice neither here nor there pacifist PR there......

if youre talking about dizzee, well thats just lame on his part. he just wants to go hip hop anyway and appeal to the hip hop masses so let him. or maybe he just has a diff view of what genres constitute his music.

"....will go on to more traditional and mainstream friendly things and then the rest with wither away before the next new 'urban' thing comes up."

thats silly. drum n bass DID change the world, or the world's concept of rhythm, you can STILL hear its rhythms in millions of other genres and songs. on outkasts last album, andre3000 was THAT recently trying to do something in a D&B rhythm (it was a shit remake of my favourite things but never mind).

and it doesnt matter if grime does or doesnt change the world, whatever that might entail.

Changed London? Get off the crack, biditch! Other than a tiny part of some way out area of London (that's probably more accurately Essex), it ain't shit. It's no 'sound of the streets'.

Some people will do anything to jump on a fad. Tsk.

i dont like this sort of 'bow down to the big wig establishment' type of thinking. just cos the OMM cover it, why does that make it more important than if B&S, touch, echoes, or RWD cover it? i mean, the mainstream will likely get up on grime then forget about it, just like they always do. just cos theres a lot of hype about it now, theyre all over it, but well see if theyre still into it when the hype dies. jus cos reynolds (no dis to him as a great dance critic at all) is writing about it for a broadsheet, doesnt mean the scene is validated, or rather it doesnt mean grime persons should feel theyre being validated. that type of thinking fucks underground scenes up when they start looking outside for approval.

Other than a tiny part of some way out area of London (that's probably more accurately Essex), it ain't shit. It's no 'sound of the streets'.

you think these MCs are coming from Essex? what makes you think that? don't you read the bios? or is it all untrue?

i think things have changed a little. there's a stronger confidence in London MCs since the rise of Dizzee and co., and with that a stronger style...in turn making a stronger artform, image and indeed product. the in roads people like Diz, Wiley, Dynamite, Kano, Lady Sov and the like have been making in the last few years seems largely thanks to the recognition grime has got (in critical circles at least) for being undeniably a powerful and exciting musical movement. whether it makes the same impact rave music or hip hop did doesn't seem that important now tho, because some in roads are being made and that may be enough.

Because the first three sell around 7,000 copies between them a month (and that's on a very very good month). (RWD doesn't really count as any form of critical barometer/exposure indicator as it's an openly payola publication and is thus no more valid than a press release.)

-- The Game (gamestar...), November 28th, 2004.

Wake up. Grime is huge in London. Grime MCs are street hero's in their ends'. and Chantelle was living this "fad" before you knew what the word grime meant.

It's bigger in Essex.

i cant stop thinking of the method man lyric "every rap critic, they talk about it while we live it." things are clearly different in UKG land! ;)

essex was home of suburban base. im waiting for someone or a label romford and ilford to make their name in grime like SU did. i think slimzee is from south woodford, if that sort of counts...

-- Fried Marlboro Sunday Tea (f...), November 29th, 2004.

i'm not sure what city you're living in...

there's plenty of mcs from ilford, essex is chaing demographically. its still racist but theres more and more black people in ilford, dagenhnam, romford etc which obviously is changing those areas. blah etc

jesus christ people are so fucking rude here it's unbelievable sometimes - and that's coming from me (as many of you know my school careers advisor was right on the nose when he strongly urged me not to join the diplomatic service).
so, first of all nice to see you posting on this thread chantelle, and above all talking a lot of sense. martin, luka; as ever, props for same.
now, down to business... i'd be really interested to know where exactly titchy and that other obnoxious tit who posted the above remark actually live - gonna enlighten us, ladies?
my bet is that it's quite likely not where this stuff happens and can be heard blasting out of every other car window.
although this is probably going to have hordes of internet lunatics descending on me in paroxysms of carmodyesque fury, claiming that i'm a nazi or some other shit, it's pretty important when you're talking in terms of the "value" (ugh!), relevance or impact of a pretty localized movement, to at least have seen it in action - gone to a few shops, listened to pirates, had a few evenings out experiencing how things work,finding out who is listening to the music/making it, generally boning up - otherwise you're going to make a knob of yourself.
so what we've all learnt here is:
1) grime is not a massive global scene (does it need to be to be relevant to it's producers and core audience? no. is this in any way indicative of its "worth" or "quality". er... no.)
2) that it's not ramraiding the charts like 2step did (now i know this is important to the popist flock, but it really shouldn't be to anyone with even the most basic critical faculties and a pinch of common sense)
3) that it's not all unequivocally brilliant (for god's sake, what genre can you say that for?)
3) that a piece in the OMM isn't the high point in grime's life (really, i consider all the pieces i've written for newspapers to be the best thing to have ever happened to the artists/genres covered - and if you believe that, well...)
4) that some people with far too much time on there hands still choose not to employ it by actually *reading* a piece before trying to tear it and its writer down and that they're more likely to do this if the writer happens to be well-known/doing their thing for a high-profile publication.
5) that simon reynolds is, in fact, not american
6) that certain sections of a board called i love music really do have something against people who are involved with and care about music (personally i reckon this place should be renamed i love moaning, or i love talking bollocks).
bloody hell, i'm glad i stopped by.

this, btw (before anyone calls me a reactionary elistist gatekeeper or hurls some other daft buzzword at me), does not mean that those who can't do this, for whatever reason, can't still enjoy it, find something in it that touches them or, conversely, even dislike it; i'm simply saying that it's impossible to deconstruct something in terms of its impact when you don't actually know what that impact is.

Essex

as far as the popism thing, it doesnt bother me that dizzee or whoever sells a lot or not - i was merely making a point that its a little strange grime has yet to have that massive crossover 'arrival' hit. but i suppose you could count i luv u (top 20) or stand up tall (top ten).

Apologies for any hostility - I just once had the misfortune of having to edit a certain poster's words. It wasn't pleasant - her words were shit.

i live in well street, hackney. they used to play dizzee's BIDC album in the street sometimes.

it is pretty massive in the rest of east london, and south loves it up too. the idea that grimes popularity is a myth cooked up by chantelle fiddy is pretty crazy.

obviously not all of it is like that, but reynolds claim that grime as a whole has none of the problems UKHH has is a little overexagerated. as for the whole real heir to hip hop thing, wasnt he saying that about jungle and drum n bass a while back?

i only made one comment about reynolds, i love his book. people are quite sensitive about grime i find - sure, this is I Love Music, but there's nothing wrong with discussing things you might not like so much. it doesnt have to be a hippieish love in.

i don't think there's any danger of that, just like i don't think there's any chance of it becoming i love manners, too.

mr m. carlin for one, is a regular champion of I Lack Manners (not that i am necessarily much better of course).

yes, fuck this musicians making a living out of their music shit.

hahahaha! i refer you to the above post where i say:

"before anyone calls me a reactionary elistist gatekeeper or hurls some other daft buzzword at me"

there's something to be said for the predictability of this place.

Thank you for a courteous and satisfying answer.

theres also something to be said for sounding so self aggrandising and pleased with yourself in your ivory tower made from record mailers surrounded by promo cds and 12"s!

i love this place!

very well put.

ANYWAY: let's chill. and i still think that you should lose the "i am a music critic and therefore worth much more than you pirates" stance. maybe that's not what you meant to say, but it came out like that.

and anyway titchy, the reason i presumed you weren't from london/england was that it took you nearly three weeks to find the piece that started this thread. why?

anyway, i'm off to my ivory tower (in dalston)

I think everyone (okay well certainly me) would buy grime stuff if it was AVAILABLE for a reasonable price. I'm sorry the cheapest I've seen any of the Lord of the Decks or Mic stuff is 15 pounds which once you calculate in shipping is an insane amount to pay for any record. . . even if mp3s didn't exist I wouldn't be buying them. I would be getting tapes from friends or failing that NOT HEARING IT OR PERHAPS EVEN ABOUT IT at all. So the idea that by downloading this stuff I am taking money from somebody is silly--THEY WOULDN'T BE GETTING MY MONEY WAY! What being able to download the mp3 ensures though is that when something like Run The Road gets released in the states (and I hope it does) that I am ten times more likely to buy having either a) heard it and liked it or b) heard other stuff like it and liked it. Considering that a huge % of Mr. Rascal's sales (and they were pretty respectable in these parts) have come from people like me who either heard the mp3 of "I Luv U" or were turned onto him by the attendant buzz from the mp3 of "I Luv U", grime seems like one of the worst genres to get pissing about mp3 trading about. Cuz most people aren't looking at grime CDs and going "shit I'm not gonna buy this, cuz I can just download it", we are looking are grime mp3s and going "damn I hope they release something I can actually find."

and everyone moaning that we shouldnt download or fileshare grime, well then we shouldnt have traded tapes of pirates shows during jungle's reign and definitely shouldnt do that either now then should we? we should have waited for an official box set of pirate sessions! the sharing, and illegal taping is part of what makes it so exciting and its how people get to hear and know about the music. i cant afford to shell out 65 quid each week for ten white labels down uptown records in the west end. i do plan on buying RTR when it comes out on vinyl though. and as far as grime having a big mainstream hit, we meant singles-wise, not albums.

Woo hoo!

I'm pretty sure that you are required to pay licensing and royalty fees on tracks that you include in mixes, Dave (whether you've paid cash money for them or NOT)! But perhaps my BMI/ASCAP understanding is a little light in this regard.

£15+£5S/H (that's almost $40!?!?--I've never spent that amount of money on a non-boxed set CD) is an insane price.

and everyone moaning that we shouldnt download or fileshare grime, well then we shouldnt have traded tapes of pirates shows during jungle's reign and definitely shouldnt do that either now then should we

different thing entirely.

and yeah the mixes aint strictly legal, but fuck it, as i said, it's a nice way of sharing music without giving away whole tracks.

Hahaha this is an unbridgeable gap.

now that's cruel, steve!

no it bloody isn't, especially as I'd have no intention of ever watching the DVD.

honestly, some people and their healthy bank accounts.

technically speaking, they do come in sort of a box, too.

yea its a pretty lame thread. I thought the original article was good.
Cool to see stelfox posting again, too bad it took attacks on Reynolds to make it happen though.

i refer you back the the first five or so posts. it hasn't got any better.

if people have something worthy and important to say about the review, then let's hear it.

Someone said he was American!!! (x-post)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Did a review the other week for the Observer of the Run the Road comp, this here's the director's cut which conveys more of the flavour of the record:

Various Artists
Run the Road
679 Recordings
* * * * *

Grime is our hip hop, the final coming of a Britrap that’s not merely a pale reflection of the original. Instead it’s a wonky, hall-of-mirrors reflection. To American ears reared on “the real thing”, grime sounds disconcertingly not-right--the halting, blurting MC cadences don’t flow, the gap-toothed, asymmetric grooves seem half-finished and defective. Something of grime’s skewiff quality is captured in the title of this compilation. “Road” is grime-speak for “street”. On “Destruction VIP,” one of the killer tracks here, Kano proclaims “from lamp post to lamp post/We run the road”. The intent is gangsta menace, an assertion of territorial might, but perhaps even to English ears, the quaint phrasing makes the boast fall a little short. American rap fans would most likely crack up on hearing the line. No wonder Grime’s modest fanbase in the United States consists almost entirely of white Anglophile hipsters.

If Grime doesn’t have a hope in hell with American’s hip hop heartland, it can console itself with the knowledge that right now it’s got the edge over “the real thing”. The records sound cheap’n’nasty next to US rap’s glossy production values, but Grime’s way with rhythm and sound is far more jaggedly futuristic. More crucially, Grime has a feeling of desperation that American hip hop has largely lost. Individual rappers may still follow rags-to-riches trajectories, but as a collective enterprise, hip hop has won. It dominates pop culture globally. The music oozes a sense of entitlement, something you can also see in that lordly look of blasé disdain that’s de rigeur in rap videos nowadays. In America, rising MCs rhyme about the luxury goods and opulent lifestyle they don’t yet have because it’s also so much more plausible, within reach. The path is well-trodden--not just selling millions of records, but diversifying into movies, starting their own clothing lines, bringing their neighbourhood crew up with them once they’ve made it.

As a sound, Grime is still very much an underdog, and so its fantasies of triumph and living large are much more precarious, and affecting. There’s a definite ceiling to how much money can be made on the underground scene. Selling 500 singles is a good result, shifting a thousand is a wild success, and even hawking your white labels direct to London’s specialist stores with a huge mark-up won’t generate that much cash. At the same time, nobody in Grime, not even Dizzee, has really mapped out a crossover career path yet. Indeed, making that transition from pirate radio to Top of the Pops is risky. Take So Solid Crew, who got to #1 with “21 Seconds” a few years back. Their second album flopped and their rep on the street (or should I say "road"?) is now non-existent.

You can hear all this in the music, in those pinched, scrawny voices--the sound of energy squeezing itself through the tiniest aperture of opportunity and grabbing for a chance that most likely will prove to be a mirage. All of the guys (plus occasional gal) on Run The Road already feel like legends in their own minds. Standout track “Chosen One” by Riko & Target distils that sense of destiny and destination. Over majestic sampled movie-soundtrack strings
Riko imagines himself as a star on satellite TV, then offers counsel that applies equally to other aspiring MCs and to everyday street soldiers dealing with adversity: “Stay calm/Don’t switch/Use composure, blood/Use your head to battle through, ca’ you are the chosen one.”

American rappers, once they’ve made it, can sound like bullies and tyrants when they reel out the same old lyrical scenarios: humiliating haters, discarding women like used condoms. From Grime MCs, the endless threats and boasts, the big-pimpin' postures, somehow seem more forgivable. When Grime MCs batter rivals real and imaginary, they’re really battening down their own self-doubt, chasing away the spectre of failure and anonymity with each verbal blow. Sure, the misogyny and gun talk can be hard to stomach. “Cock Back,” one of 2004’s biggest grime anthems, is a Terror Danjah riddim constructed from the click and crunch of small arms being cocked. Over this bloodcurdling beat, D Double E spits couplets like “Think you’re a big boy ‘cos you go gym?/Bullets will cave your whole face in.” Outnumbered twenty to one, the female MCs give as good as their gender usually gets. No Lay, on “Unorthodox Daughter”, promises to “put you in Bupa” and warns “soundboy I can have your guts for garters/turn this place into a lyrical slaughter”.

Possibly the best grime collection yet, Run The Road is also touted as the genre’s first major label compilation. Actually, a Warners sub-label released one in 2002, Crews Control. But its contents were more like proto-grime, the beats mostly 2step and UK garage, and the vibe far more playful and genial, courtesy of now almost forgotten crews like Heartless and Genius. Their brand of boisterous bonhomie and quirky humour is in short supply on Run The Road. One exception: Lady Sovereign’s “Cha Ching”, on which the squeaky-voiced “white midget” announces “It’s Ms Sovereign, the titchy t’ing/Me nah have fifty rings/but I’ve got fifty things/To say/In a cheeky kind of way/Okay?” Bruza sounds comic, injecting the Cockney into “Cock Back” with his lurching, Arthur Mullard-like delivery and lines like “you’ll be left in ruins for your wrong-doings”. But content-wise, he’s “brutal and British”, reeling off the usual list of inventively gory acts of revenge. Run The Road’s brand of laughter is mostly the gloating, vindictive kind. Hence the eerie digital cackle, like an evil, leering cyber-goblin, used by Terror Danjah as a motif on all his productions (on this comp, “Cock Back” and Shystie’s “One Wish”). Compared to even a few years ago, Grime seems like it has less scope for goofing about now. There’s a deadly seriousness in the air, possibly influenced by the sense that there’s more at stake--a real chance of making it, now the majors are cautiously sniffing around and signing up MCs like Kano.

If Grime ever does makes it, collectively--achieving the sort of dominance that American rap enjoys--these last three years of the genre’s emergence will be looked back on as the golden age, the old skool. Make no mistake, the MCs on this compilation-- Kano, D Double E, Riko, Sovereign, Dizzee, Wiley--are our equivalents to Rakim, Chuck D, Ice Cube, Nas, Jay-Z. To twist slightly the words of another rapper from that American pantheon, Notorious BIG: if you (still) don’t know, get to know.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Now did I really write "these last three years of the genre's emergence"? Wrong. Here's something I wrote and posted on the website back in April 2001, actually tucked away as a coda to an Unfaves of 2000 item on breakbeat garage. After slagging off Stanton Warriors et al, a late surge of incoming pirate data causes an unexpected spike in optimism:

"That said, the last batch of pirate tapes I got, showed signs of a new twist in this breakstep (or whatever they're calling it) direction: not so much jungle-slowed-down, and more like a post-rave, drum'n'bass influenced form of English rap. On these spring 2001 pirate tapes, there's hardly any R&B diva tunes, and every other track features very Lunndunn-sounding MCs or ragga-flavored vocals, over caustic acid-riffs and techsteppy sounds, like some latterday Dillinja production. Unlike with techstep or recent d&b, there's very little distorto-blare in the production, there's this typically 2step clipped, costive feel, an almost prim and dainty quality to the aggression-- a weird combo of nasty and neat-freak. Lyrically, the vibe seems to be similarly pinched in spirit, a harsh, bleak worldview shaped subconsciously by the crumbling infrastructural reality beneath New Labour's fake grin; UKG seems to be already transforming itself from boom-time music to recession blues. The Englishness of the vocals reminds me of 3 Wizemen and that perpetual false-dawn for UK rap. Lots of killer tunes I can't identify, but one in particular stood out that I could: "Know We" by Pay As U Go Kartel. As I say, quite mean-minded and loveless music but sonically very exciting-- a new twist if not quite paradigm shift from the hardcore continuum."

Yes, that shrill, off-key noise you can hear is the sound of someone blowing their own trumpet...

i'm making no apologies.
1) people should be at least vaguely polite to one another, especially relatively new posters
2) know what you're on about before trying to rip people or their work to bits
3) buy records when you can - it's a nice thing to do, they're good to own and the people that make them get paid, too!

thanks kids - any wonder i don't come here too often.

also it's considered better to post links to people's blogs, rather than posting wholesale entries on messageboards.

though I see em listed on Independance, Rhythm Division (and even Juno occasionally)
I've held off on the DVDs too - too many great 12"s to budget between already
but I'd love to see+hear some of my heroes in action

and although the info is here, spread over the grime threads
can anyone recap which of the DVDs are best
and which ones may not be available now ? ta in advance

i think stelfox should have a daily list of rules of things people should do like the three point path to ILM redemption up above. or maybe a daily email of some sort of things we could all improve on. im now starting to see a message board programme like Would Like To Meet on BBC2 called Would Like to Post. dave could be one of the panel of experts.

sorry but that did make me titter

it's too bad every thread with the words 'grime' or 'reynolds' in them ends up like this tho

people are reacting to all the hype (perhaps more than to the music), thats all.

i don't even know what i am doing here to be honest - i never buy or listen to grime, i only hear a couple of tracks every few months. i suppose like many i am interested in the ideas and concepts floating around such a thing, rather than the actual results (e.g. the lyrics reynolds quotes seem, to me, and isolated from their correct context, dull and unoriginal - but of course with the exciting beats, hooks etc. they constitute an inspiring 'action' and a feeling greater than the sum of the parts. this is what i enjoy about aggressive hip-hop and it's what grime trades on as well as US rap, jungle and dancehall often, based on what i know and have heard). so my apathy is not really the fault of the genre itself but my own condition as shaped by a wide variety of external factors (a certain disillusionment that infiltrates but doesn't quite eradicate my interest and passion for what is or can be pop). not that this is important or anything but i feel like i ought to explain my own behaviour if not just presence on threads with topics and outcomes such as this.

All the hype? A thread, about an album review, in a Music Magazine free inside a UK broadsheet. For something to be hyped it clearly getting a lot lower threshold than when I was a kid.

wanting people to show each other a bit of common courtesy and thinking they should have the faintest idea about things before they try to have a pop at them - i ask you! the cheek of it.

clearly you either dont live in london or dont read the music press.

also, do people really agree with this?

More crucially, grime has a feeling of desperation that American hip hop has largely lost. Individual rappers may still follow rags-to-riches trajectories, but as a collective enterprise, hip hop has won. It dominates pop culture globally. The music oozes a sense of entitlement, something you can also see in that lordly look of blasé disdain that's de rigueur in rap videos nowadays. In America, rising MCs rhyme about the luxury goods and opulent lifestyle they don't yet have because it's also so much more within reach.

Is Reynolds' saying that "grime" is hungry but "hip-hop" is not?

American rappers, once they've made it, can sound like bullies and tyrants when they reel out the same old lyrical scenarios: humiliating haters, discarding women like used condoms. From grime MCs, the endless threats and boasts, the big-pimpin' postures, somehow seem more forgivable. When grime MCs batter rivals real and imaginary, they're really battening down their own self-doubt, chasing away the spectre of failure and anonymity with each verbal blow. Sure, the misogyny and gun talk can be hard to stomach, but, though outnumbered 20 to one, the female MCs give as good as their gender usually gets. No Lay, on 'Unorthodox Daughter', promises to 'put you in Bupa' and warns, 'soundboy, I can have your guts for garters/ Turn this place into a lyrical slaughter'.

I don't live in London, I do read the music press, and have promoted artists outside of London, Tinchy. I was just pointing as to what the actual topic this thread was about before it got dragged off line. And all in all, it isn't that much hype. Not as much hype as Tesco trying to get me to buy a fucking snow patrol album every time I turn on TV, or the amount of wanking-over and peddling about bono and his lads releasing another mediocre album. So? The press are getting a little excited about something that *isn't* major label pushed, and is resulting in people getting contracts and getting signed. Why the fuck aren't they allowed to get a bit excited about this, even if it dies in flames????

More crucially, grime has a feeling of desperation that American hip hop has largely lost. Individual rappers may still follow rags-to-riches trajectories, but as a collective enterprise, hip hop has won. It dominates pop culture globally. The music oozes a sense of entitlement, something you can also see in that lordly look of blasé disdain that's de rigueur in rap videos nowadays. In America, rising MCs rhyme about the luxury goods and opulent lifestyle they don't yet have because it's also so much more within reach.

Is Reynolds' saying that "grime" is hungry but "hip-hop" is not? "

yeah, hip hop has lots its hunger. its bloated and fat, with nothing to prove. the south is still incredibly hungry though, just as much as grime artists, possibly more so.

I don't like this hip-hop vs grime trope which seems to be developing. I definitely agree that grime sounds 'hungrier' and more desperate, but this does not necessarily make it superior.

he said that on Popworld as well, but i thought he was just talking about himself hyuck hyuck (seriously tho, hip-hop is still creative and exciting but it's not a kid (80s) or teenager (90s) anymore so freshness lost in that respect sure but it's all grown up now - those are the terms i think of it in)

Re grime vs hip-hop, I suppose the minor backlash to "Stand Up Tall" ("oh no! Dizzee's sold out and gone hip-hop!") was a bit of an alert.

listening to Crunk Juice it really is the vocals which I think make me think like this.

it's taken on the image rather than the sound perhaps. the video is VERY hip-hop. but they're a combined package to some people.

as for crunk being bloated, i dont get how anyone thinks that, crunk is the freshest thing hip hop has thrown up from the US in ages.

xpost - cant believe nas was on channel u!!!

as for this:

"American rappers, once they've made it, can sound like bullies and tyrants when they reel out the same old lyrical scenarios: humiliating haters, discarding women like used condoms."

showtime was very much in that mould. its not like grime doesnt talk about bitches and haters. it does them in abundance. and half the time, it sounds OTT and forced. they could at least do it with some more conviction. much as i like cock back, they sound a bit ridiculous and cartoonish.

"From grime MCs, the endless threats and boasts, the big-pimpin' postures, somehow seem more forgivable. When grime MCs batter rivals real and imaginary, they're really battening down their own self-doubt, chasing away the spectre of failure and anonymity with each verbal blow."

people used to say this about hip hop - that the boasts and brags were to cover up insecurity. i dont know why its more forgivable here. in a way its worse, cos theyre just apeing american MCs, albeit in a sort of slightly 'british' way.

"Sure, the misogyny and gun talk can be hard to stomach, but, though outnumbered 20 to one, the female MCs give as good as their gender usually gets. No Lay, on 'Unorthodox Daughter', promises to 'put you in Bupa' and warns, 'soundboy, I can have your guts for garters/ Turn this place into a lyrical slaughter'."

hip hop always had female MCs to give the guys what they deserved too - salt n pepa, mc lyte, latifah, etc etc. most female mcs now might just be fantasies for men, but they still do stick it to the men most of the time, albeit mainly or only in the sexual arena.

the grime vs hip hop debate is a bit redundant - hip hop still has a lot of good stuff happening. its shot most of its wad, but stuff like the dirty south still makes it exciting. and when theres MCs like Trife from theodore unit still emerging, it proves theres still life in it. nas' new album also shows rappers still have some balls and arent complete parodies. lets not get carried away with grime's alleged superiority over hip hop, its still in its infancy.

it uses one of the oldest hip-hop breaks in the book, fule.

Back in the '80s, hip-hop was faster than it is now.

it uses one of the oldest hip-hop breaks in the book, fule."

are you referring to stand up tall or fix up look sharp?

hip hop was ocassionally faster in the 80s, and there were lots of fast records being made, but it kinda lost that around 1994.

, I can have your guts for garters/ Turn this place into a lyrical slaughter'

this reads like a terrible rhyme! unless it's deliberate

xpost

whoops!

yeah it sounds a bit naff. same as the rhyme 'from lampost to lampost, we run the road'. sounds like a road traffic control announcement. maybe the met will co-opt it for ads.

'and half the time, it sounds OTT and forced. they could at least do it with some more conviction. much as i like cock back, they sound a bit ridiculous and cartoonish.'

er yeah well its cartoonish - what with songs titled like 'pow!' (god I can't actually remember 'cock back', I'm not sure I've heard it grr!). I actually like that (in the two versions I've heard) they don't overuse the 'pow!' shout out tho'. I find the whole 'I'll break your jaw' 'I'll crack your skull' type talk far funnier than 'happy talk' or 'pies'. Would an album full of 'itchy and scratchy' type cartoonish violence with grime-pop beats be too much to ask? huh?

martin make us a comp!

x-posts

I'm momentarily forgetting, what's the song with Crazy Titch and I think JME and Lethal B's "ARGH! LETHAL B's GOT A GUN!" Maybe my favourite grime track of the year (at least on some days), but definitely the best for cartoonish violence.

HE DID! That's what this thread is about!

yeah i love wileys pies, and dizzee saying 'i havent got the foggiest' but when its meant to sound hard or rude, its almost lightweight. maybe the delivery isnt confident enough but i dont hear the smirk you refer to. i dont know - it just sounds, as reynolds says, too quaint. i never really paid it any attention anyway, until the review. and its just a single line, it goes fine in the song.

the line i did have a small prob with was the one in mic fight about (im going from memory here) 'its just london living, money guns, weed cars and women'. that was a bit lame.

72 results found:

-- vicemagazine (vicelan...), October 19th, 2005.

AHAHAHAHA..

he moved away because he saw the way things in this once glorious country were heading. if it wasnt for the erosion of traditional english culture, we might still be able to boast one of its true exponents (mr reynolds, in case you were unsure) right here where he belongs.

i am pretty sure i saw bruza on the 73 in stokey the other week. he seemed to have a sweetboy jheri perm thing going on. it were odd.

Grindie changed everything.
-- Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 31 July 2006 09:51 (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

^^^true

This thread = "Why Dissensus Is Necessary" part 379.
-- Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 24 November 2004 15:50 (3 years ago) Bookmark Link

4-5-1

i wonder if nu-look nme will be employing dissensus contributrs.

that would certainly bump its sales.