A Love Supreme : most over-estimated record in jazz

It's good, but I think it's one of those records people latch onto because it has "hooks" so to speak. There's that simple, catchy "Da-dum da-dum" that repeats over and over again. There's the whole spirituality dimension that gives people something to relate to it (like programatic classical music). It's a very good album, don't get me wrong.

I listen to Crescent a lot more often, though.

Forks -- yes, I like Ole Coltrane a lot too. I haven't heard Black Pearls. I also really like John Coltrane Quartet Plays and Transition.

The only one I really find to be genuinely overrated is Blue Train.

OTM

Yeah, and also that would be a pretty bad criticism of me because my music collection is like 20% jazz.

Hopefully everyone who has mentioned "Live at the Village Vanguard" is talking about or has heard the 4CD box set. One CD is JUST NOT ENOUGH. I think I'm on record on ILX (probably the Elvin Jones RIP thread) as saying that the rendition of "India" on Disc 2 is the greatest jazz recording I've ever heard, but in case I'm not, there it is again.

xpost don't bag on brubeck.

So let's turn this thread into hosannas for the Vanguard box -- god, it's exhilarating!

Kind of Blue, I think, is a different issue entirely...I'd say a good 40% of my collection is jazz, and I have a good amount of miles' recordings, but KoB remains consistently listend-to to this day.

Wrong

I heard the same story as jake b. about the lost soprano.

xpost

The quote does seem a little like a backhanded compliment. Anyhow, it's possibly the Wire's insecurity at putting a mellifluous & mainstream jazz album in its list.

oh, I just started it recently. Something to do, I guess. Actually I was partially inspired by you Scott! And also Peter Margasak's and Mike McGonigal's and Christopher Porter's, which have really been kicking ass so far. Nice to see some folks big upping music that isn't indie or dance, you know? anyway it's here:

http://shortsqueeze.blogspot.com/

Trying to put up MP3s and post with regularity.

(And, yeah, ALS = classic.)

-- scott seward (skotro...), January 23rd, 2005."

Shit, I always loved Red Garland too. I'll have to check out that record. I always thought he didn't get his due as a pianist because he wasn't enough of an "innovator".

"Block chords. Block chords."

I'll defend Wynton Marsalis, though I think he straightjackets his talents a bit too much. I've met him and heard him live, and the man gets quite a sound out of his horn, and he swings pretty hard. You can't not enjoy yourself hearing him live.

Shit, I always loved Red Garland too. I'll have to check out that record. I always thought he didn't get his due as a pianist because he wasn't enough of an "innovator".
I think the same as true of Jimmy Garrison. I think because he played with Great Big Genius #1 and Big Genius #2 and other Genius #3 he was overshadowed. I guess he wasn't an innovator and he didn't walk like crazy ( I can't think of any records where he's playing walking basslines at all, but I'm sure somebody will correct me) nor solo up a storm, but he sure sounds good on all those classic records. I think he also has a rep as a boring soloist but I don't think his solos are any more boring than any of the other tautologically boring bass solos out there, I actually kind of like the one near the end of ALS, which I just listened to.

Whats wrong w/ nina simone?

I'm always amused by gabnebb and his opinions, I must admit. At least he doesn't explain them, I guess.

and Stormy, c'mon, that's a strawman if I ever seen one.

But I don't take his attempts to "control jazz" (if that's what he's really attempting to do) very seriously, and I kind of think people who do are wasting their energy. If Marsalis gets more people interested in jazz, that's overall a good thing, even for the Matthew Shipps of the world (some of those people will move from straight-ahead to more avant garde stuff eventually, as I did).

I don't like when he gets all ambitious about covering music like a fucking historical reenactments.

I can to jazz via beefheart too and like nate I wasn't into ALS on first listen BUT since then I acquired this cheap boxset - five LPs consisting mostly of recordings from the quartet, among those a live recording of ALS - and I really got into it. Also I got a recording from Braxton's quartet 'Live in London (1985)' which is totally awesome - the music is v diff but it got me into thinking abt Coltrane's quartet again (I wanted to pull out that braxton again after reading his interview in the wire but I couldn't find it).

said this before but his last quintet is as far as I got - have 'live in japan' (4CD) set and that should def be reissued - criminal how it isn't available.

But ALS is still a tremendous record, even if it's not the first Coltrane disc usually pulled by folks who own more than one. (My choices: Interstellar Space, Crescent, Live At The Village Vanguard, First Meditations.) It's not Coltrane's most overrated disc, either; my vote on that score goes to Africa/Brass, which is terrible.

Now, let's talk about who's underrated. My vote goes to Lee Morgan. Dozens of albums, all of 'em swing, and some of 'em (Search For The New Land in particular) are surprisingly adventurous. Pick up any Lee Morgan Blue Note album (including anything he did with Hank Mobley or Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers) and you're guaranteed an enjoyable listening experience.

Another underrated guy: Grachan Moncur III. The recent Mosaic 3-CD box of his albums with Jackie McLean is insane. And he's got a new studio album out this month, his first since 1977.

If In a Silent Way (or name any other album) could replace Bitches Brew as the official starting point for electric jazz, the world would be happier.

Hi, Phil.

pdf, I'm TOTALLY with you on Lee Morgan - I have the blue note complete 50s recordings box, and it's terrific; Candy is like the perfect mid-50s hard bop recording, and I always love how funky Morgan's solos are, totally inventive and very much in love with the groove. His solos on Art Blakey's Moanin' are A+++ too. I think Cornbread is my favorite album of his, although Search for The New Land is fucking amazing as well.

If we're talking about underrated trumpet players though, my vote is for Booker Little; he died of Euremia at 23, but for a couple years he released some amazing, edgy performances, including some terrific ones with Eric Dolphy.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000000YMC.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004U04T.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

The electric Miles albums I like least are Live-Evil, which just seems to be going out of its way to be ugly and alienating, and At Fillmore, which is a chopped-up mess. (The live Cellar Door stuff from which Live-Evil is culled is fucking brilliant, though. Miles and Teo chose the wrong stuff to release, and edited it poorly.)

Try "The Sidewinder" by Lee Morgan, too. His crossover hit and a good entry point to the whole Blue Note thing. Moanin' seconded.

FWIW, I don't think it's possible to over-rate Louis Armstrong (or Duke or JB or Hank Sr.) but I'm a 20th century modernist at heart.

They're floating around. Another poster sent them to me awhile ago.

Not sure I'm comfortable with the term "overestimated" (implies you have an opinion about what other people should like, which I don't) but I easily prefer BB to IASW or indeed any other Miles fusion record. Jack Johnson and IASW are the ones whose high reputations seem furthest from my own response.

A Love Supreme made a bigger impact on me than any other record - when I first got it I listened to it at least once a day for months. Nowadays I can't recapture that intensity of response but if any record changed my life it was that one. So I can't agree it's overestimated.

For Lee Morgan i would highly recommend Live At the Lighthouse (Double LP or Triple CD) which contains some very beautiful post-bop style playing from lee.

http://www.gokudo.co.jp/Record/BlueNote5/bl8%20015.jpg

Also, Julius Hemphill. Dogon A.D. is some kind of masterpiece, but it's his only album that's out of print - Tim Berne has been trying to get the rights to rerelease it but so far, no dice. Luckily, it's been floating around slsk.

xpost, I love that Threadgill record "Too Much Sugar," what an amazing work. Julius Hemphill is awesome too.

I think that people coming to jazz tend to start with the '50s, you know, which overlooks all the great stuff that came earlier. You don't necessarily have to start with Armstrong or McKinney's Cotton Pickers, but at least be aware of someone like Young or Hawkins or Earl Hines, the latter of which was one motherfucking great piano player for any age, any time, and he was still playing great in the 1970s.

As far as Wynton Marsalis--fuck 'im. He's probably the single biggest asshole in the history of jazz. I just got thru reading this bio of Art Blakey by the late Leslie Gourse, and saw where Wynton didn't know shit or care anything about "jazz" when he joined up with Blakey, who had to teach him a few things. Now WM acts like he invented the shit, he's giving the world a much-needed lesson in what "real music" is and what our "heritage as Americans" is. I can't stand it, and sure, he can play, but I find him incredibly uninvolving, stiff, pedantic, a real librarian.

-- polyphonic (polyphoni...), January 23rd, 2005.

Well, I came to Tortoise through Jazz. There's no sad way to come to jazz, IMHO.

As far as Bitches Brew, yeah, it's sort of overrated. I definitely like other electric Miles much better, including the quote-un-quote transitional recordings that came right before it (Filles de Kilamanjaro and Silent Way) It more gets talked up because it was so decidedly the beginning of something new.

Eric Dolphy is kind of my personal most-overrated *underated* player. I like his work on some albums, but I feel like he always falls back on the same *out* licks.

Woody Shaw I find a little academic.

I like that Booker Little record cited above a lot -- I am a huge fan of Max Roach.

esp. since Tortoise has AACM ties.

-- lovebug starski (writeco...), January 23rd, 2005 12:21 PM.

I agree 100% with this sentiment.

This is a fun thread. I actually cannot believe that a thread on ILM about actual honest-to-gosh jazz music is neck-to-neck for posts with a thread that has "Simon Reynolds" and "dance music" in the heading. It's a frickin' miracle. Maybe there is hope for the world after all.

I actually don't think it's really possible to "overrate" someone like, say, Dolphy. In this country? Ha. I'm with Carlos Santana on that score.

Live at the Lighthouse indeed great. Another somewhat unsung, great Lee Morgan disc is the late-60s one called Caramba.

Concur on Booker Little. Only know him from the Dolphy stuff but he was outstanding.

yeah, I'm a big fan of Jeff Parker. Really versatile player. Hurting did you get his Like Coping disc? That was amazing. He's also got another new one coming out (or is it out? i'm not sure), a duo disc with another guitarist, on Delmark soon. Also, I hope people didn't miss him on the Ted Sirota album on Delmark from last year. It's pretty hot. I actually right now have a rare track with Jeff on it up on my blog. It's with the New Horizons Ensemble; everyone should download it, he takes a nice solo. sorry i'm really NOT trying to pimp my blog here. it actually annoys me when other people do that. I just thought that since Jeff's name came up and I have a rare track with him up for download, that i'd point people to it. I just care about promoting this wonderful music.

It occurs to me the first Coltrane disc I ever picked up was My Favorite Things, and pretty much fell in love right away. I guess I've always sort of assumed that was everyone's first Coltrane, simply because the title track has become so iconic.

(and yet, I can't muster up much hate for him anymore, he can play and it's not like he affects my daily life).

I heard some of the most recent Jeff Parker album at a party recently -- my impression was that it was very, very straight ahead, but without treading trampled ground too much.

Mine was Blue Train and the same thing happened. It might expain why I still listen to the earlier stuff more like lush life and traneing in and all the stuff with miles, ad infinitum.

"I'd much rather listen to Mingus, Monk, or Ornette most days"

OTM, OTM.

But there's still time, I'm still young, etc.

The singing of "a love supreme, a love supreme" is cheesey and annoying. Yes, we know that's what it's called!

His so called revolutionary editing techniques of improvising (dicking around) then sequencing/compiling (sticking together bits of music in a very basic manner)aren't particularly great either.

"One auction piece from Ms. Coltrane's house in California - the original sheet-music sketches for Coltrane's 1964 suite "A Love Supreme," among the most important works in jazz - bears explicit notes and markings in Coltrane's hand. ("Make ending attempt to reach transcendent level"; "Rising harmonies to a level of blissful stability at end"; "Last chord to sound like final chord of 'Alabama.' ") These two pages, which have never been seen by scholars, aren't just a curio: they will affect scholarship."

I hope so. He played with Jackie McLean (and Bobby Hutcherson!) last spring, but I missed it.

On the less avant side of things, I prefer Birth of the Cool to Kind of Blue, but Sketches of Spain whips 'em both. I've also been digging this Ben Webster 'best of' I stumbled across at the library; I don't know much about the pre-Trane tenor greats (Hawkins, Webster, etc.), but I'm thinking I like the sweeter softer tone -- Trane's use of the altimssimo register on the tenor and the sheets-of-sound and multitone stuff on Regions etc. is pretty honked-out (has to be), and a different, less aggressive approach to the instrument is a nice contrast. Dig fr'instance Sonny Rollins with Monk.

Lee Morgan, I've only gotten into Leeway and Sidewinder and both are enjoyable with playing of the highest caliber, if somewhat bland compositionally. Old stand-bys though. I'll have to check out Search for the New Land. I should big up Hub-tones here too, great record. Another guy along these lines who may be more Coltrane-related is Joe Henderson. I love his playing on stuff like Page One and In n Out and the Kicker (with Grachan on trombone!). Great stuff, all.

This is a great thread; why aren't there more jazz threads on ilm? Seems like there's enough interest.

Do you feel the same way when, say, Elvis Costello says "Allison" in the song "Allison", or when Curtis Mayfield says "Freddie's Dead" in "Freddie's Dead"? I think you're missing the point.

Man, every time I post on a jazz thread I'm reminded how much the new All Music Guide site sucks -- you have to log in to get the credits on albums, and I have some stupid randomly-assigned password, and for some reason it won't let my browser remember the password so I have to go back to my e-mail and find it again.

I think A Love Supreme is so highly rated simply because it's pretty. Actually, that's not entirely fair to say. The brilliance of ALS is in its simplicity and clarity which I think gives it a universal appeal. Perhaps more devoted jazz fans have trouble stepping back and seeing the bigger picture. A lot of my favorite jazz albums are what you might consider genre exercises that wouldn't have much appeal beyond the jazz fan. Meditatons is one of my favorites but I wouldn't expect that to be the common, popular pick. The fact that A Love Supreme is the pick for non-jazz-fans may actually be a point in its favor. It sort of transcends the conventions of the idiom and becomes simply great music.

But I have to say that anyone who rates Jack Johnson above Bitches Brew is simply crazy.

Been called worse.

(I won't add the traditional 'by better' since I have no clue who you are.)

No, I'm sure the "by better" is appropriate here.

a year ago i got ascension and i find it much more fascinating than ALS. it is not a record to love, it is pretty dissonant and going on for a long time but extremely powerful. and there is a communion kind of thing going on with all the ten or so solos and the others joining in after a while.

this week i got giant steps. and i like it a lot. amazing sax play on the title, the speed of the chord successions and the immaculate sound coltrane still produces. some phantastic lyrical compositions like syeeda's song flute.

not sure what to buy next. either meditations or interstellar space.

I think it's "Interstellar Space" for you, young man

Grachan Moncur III is playing this year's Vision Festival with Byard Lancaster and Bobby Hutcherson. I'm definitely gonna see that. I'm so bummed I missed his shows with Jackie McLean in 2004.

is there any album or concert recording where the father coltrane, the son sanders and the ghost ayler play together? a little search on the web only yielded this. a tape of a 1966 concert in the new york philharmonic hall which is in the possession of the trane family! i am only starting to get into free-jazz, so please excuse this probably stupid question.

It's funny, I've never had much interest in jazz, finding even earlier Coltrane a bit stodgy for my tastes. But this morning I was putting together a mix of Sly, Funkadelic, Stooges, Can, Beefheart, and James Brown, and heard JB shout at the end of "Super Bad" to "blow me some 'Trane, brotha". So I decided to try some Coltrane for the mix, looked at what I had, and put on Meditations because of its date (1965, pretty late in the day). So maybe this is the right way for me to find my way into jazz, finally...

there have been rumors over the last couple of years that this will be officially released. i knew someone who was at that concert; as soon as trane's set started (with ayler and pharoah), half the audience left. then trane started playing the theme to "my favorite things," which brought some of the audience back. then they left again during the solos. my friend was glad so many people left, as he got to sit much closer. also on the bill that night were coleman hawkins, stan getz, and sonny rollins; it was billed as the "titans of tenor" concert. it is the only known recording of coltrane, sanders, and ayler together.

The second concert is more "free", and has sanders on it so it should be your bag. the first gets my vote for eric dolphy ripping shit up, chasin' the train and, most of all, impressions.

The first one is better. But if you prefer his free shit by all means check out the second.

India (third set, fourth disc) from the '61 shows is unbelievable, and probably one of my favorite soprano Coltrane recordings. Highly recommended.

Re: '66 disc, the highlight for me is a killer bass solo (real solo, w/o the rest of the band!) as an intro to My Favorite Things.

That's quite a statement, esp. wrt Duke.

Jeff Parker in new Vandermark project Powerhouse Sound: YES

I want to hear this band!

That's quite a statement, esp. wrt Duke.

yeah, and probably deserves a thread of its own. but... the whole Duke/Trane album normally gets underrated as a curiosity item, a date set up by bob thiele because coltrane had fucked up his reed (like the rocket with his tips) and duke was between contracts. but this one song changed the whole way coltrane recorded (duke forced him to go with one take rather than re-recording endlessly), and this intersection just happened to produce something magical - i mean maybe there's a gap in my collection where i'm missing where ellington came up with that ostinato (that "indelible vamp" giddings calls it) but it's just... you know, the ideal of what a jazz ballad, what music should be.

it's interesting because you can hear coltrane is listening with the same intensity he normally plays with - he was a great listener (got downbeat pieces where he's blind testing new releases and picking out bassists, drummers, 'bonists by name etc. - compare to miles's "i don't listen to jazz" shtick of the period, or that episode where they called his ass out when he claimed he could "hear" the difference between a white player and a black player (he couldn't of course, but I bet Trane could have told them exactly who the player was)) but i get the impression Tyner left the group because Trane stopped listening to him - like tyner would lay out and trane wouldn't even notice until he came back in to signal the ending.

anyway, the song is exciting as far as coltrane is concerned because he's playing within himself as far as no sheets of sound, screeching, split notes etc. are concerned, but outside himself as far as trying to go with what his "accompanist" is feeding him.

Count me as someone who loves the singing.
-- deej

Has anybody besides me ever been weird enough to throw on Meditations and sing 'along' to "The Father And The Sun And The Holy Ghost"? (Or, at least IMAGINE how it would sound with Coltrane singing it?) Because the ascending eleven-note motif matches PRECISELY the eleven-syllable song title! Was that just a coincidence; or did Trane originally intend to add vocals, all chanting the title in unison with the sax parts? We'll never know...

-- js ([email protected]), April 28th, 2006.

So I guess you know where I come down on this thread. I really resist the phrase "overrated". Frampton Comes Alive is overrated. Citi Movement is overrated. ALS is something that everyone should own, whether or not they ever play it.

I like the points made about Ellington/Coltrane. Another underrated album would be Ellington/Mingus/Roach Money Jungle.

I know that it is unlikely that posters upthread will revisit, but I'd like to hear some substantiation for On The Corner "is better than" (another phrase that is weird) Bitches Brew. I just don't understand.

ALS stands the test of time quite well, I think, and the connections between that and Black Unity are fairly evident. I'm not sure what the hate is about. From the opening wash of Jones's cymbals and the opening call by Coltrane to the final fade, this is a well conceived and well executed piece of music.

For those who wanted to put more players on this disc, you may be referring to the short bit of Archie Shepp that appears on an alternate take released with the deluxe remastered double disk anniversary edition. That bit is certainly not worth getting excited about.

On ALS, each musician gets an extended showcase that is integral to the piece, a change in form from the typical jazz of head, tradinng fours, laying out for a solo, restating the theme, solo, chorus, solo, return to head. While quite a bit of innteresting music is made in that form, I think it also allowed for a lot of less-than-eloquent musicians to solo just because the form demands it. Live, I have seen musicians literally freeze up for lack of annything to say and I have seen others blather about with nothing to say for an inordinately long time. What does this have to do with ALS? Imo, at 32 minutes running time, the piece doesn't fall to that sort of jazz hokery.

http://www.openculture.com/2013/09/john-coltranes-handwritten-outline-for-his-masterpiece-a-love-supreme.html

wasn't sure which coltrane topic to post on, but i was wondering if there were any thoughts on this yet?

https://www.discogs.com/master/2345266-John-Coltrane-A-Love-Supreme-Live-In-Seattle

it is...good. Pretty lo-fi.

yeah, i had it on in the background and it seemed okay. i always thought for sure they would give a standalone release to the antibes set that was on the second disc of this reissue, but nope. it makes me wonder just how much else they have in "the vault" that could see a legitimate release.

(ftr: i won't be purchasing it. just doesn't seem very essential. the antibes set is way better and this feels a little like barrel scraping, unfortunately.)

thread title has always annoyed me, wtf does "most over-estimated record" mean?

someone thought it was a double album?

I wrote about it for Stereogum as part of a roundup of a whole bunch of versions of ALS (John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Carlos Santana/John McLaughlin, etc.). I like it a lot.

ethan iverson wrote about it…among other things, he points out that this band's activity in the period in which ALS the original work was frenzied, and while its considered one of the most scrutinized works in the history of african american improvised music since like the 70s, none of those guys would have had a notion that that this one work was going to be that major. So while Trane knows what's going on as they're playing it, it doesn't seem like Jones or Tyner remember the work as recorded all that well… this is not like playing "Cherokee" or something…

https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/coltrane-love-supreme/

i recall similar conversation in the ashley kahn love supreme book. elvin jones was quoted as telling a fan at the time, "if you like our other albums, you'll like this one too."

guess he kinda knew what was going on lol.

In that same book, a contemporary fan who went on to become a well-known jazz musician (don't remember who), says "we liked A Love Supreme, but we were always most interested in what he was going to do next".

"Flawed" and "over-estimated" my ass.

I think this release still very much tells an interesting story about Coltrane and his times. The album has a very young Carlos Ward (still a local Seattle guy) getting thrown in the deep end!

I really love this new Live one, I can understand some of the complaints that Coltrane himself is a little low, but everyone else sounds so good that it feels like a minor complaint. It's always just such a joy to hear this group playing these songs.

Coltrane (and Sanders and Ward) are so low in the “mix” (it’s just a 2-track recording) that I found it frustrating having to aurally squint to hear what they’re doing. Jones and Tyner are front-and-center, and it’s actually one of the better recordings of Jones from that time, live or studio. This definitely should’ve been released, no question, but I prefer the 1971/1994 live release…for that matter, I actually prefer the decidedly lower-fi The Olatunji Concert: as distorted as it is, Coltrane’s extremely forward in that “mix.”

Honestly, the prominence of piano and rhythm over horns is one of the big selling points, to me. Tyner used to get buried, especially in 1965 and after - it was one of the main reasons he quit! So to really hear what he was doing in this kind of situation is fantastic.

Good piece by Iverson. I haven't had the right moment to listen to this but I am very much looking forward to it.

No question, hearing Tyner clearly in this context — for once — is great. And I feel like I’m hearing the full breadth and depth of Elvin’s kit for the first time (apart from the one time I saw him live). But because Live In Seattle is one of my favorite records (by anyone), my expectations for this, and what I’d imagined it would sound like, were probably irrationally high. Also, the basses are mostly inaudible apart from the duo spots, which are fascinating. Trane should’ve worked with two basses more.

xp

this new live set is INCREDIBLE

I haven't even gotten to part 3 yet, mind you. but this is very different from the other live version of a love supreme i've heard.

Honestly, the prominence of piano and rhythm over horns is one of the big selling points, to me. Tyner used to get buried, especially in 1965 and after - it was one of the main reasons he quit! So to really hear what he was doing in this kind of situation is fantastic.

otm. also i'm biased because i listen to things with drummer eras (particularly jazz) but it is really cool to get to hear jones up a bit higher in the mix. i could see how that would make it sound off-balance to others, but to me it's thrilling to hear coltrane on the left side on my headphones, mixed hard to the size, with the drums and bass near the middle, the piano off to the right. it feels like you're in the drummer's seat, witnessing coltrane going off with some perspective, as a balance to the interplay with tyner's piano.

and they are really, really extending these songs. this is like if you could get a bonus deluxe edition of an album, only instead of adding on some extra takes or leftover songs, you get this reinvigorated edition with all these additional passages and variations on the theme that perfectly fit

This is powerful & beautiful, the bootleg quality only make it more impressive in a way (because we've all heard gig tapes with similar sound quality, and much less transcendent playing). Resolution is so intense.

The way Elvin plays super fast tempos (like Pursuance) is like a magic trick to me, he's almost never stating the full cymbal pattern, but it still has that constant circular motion thing and is in the pocket.

ok I'm going in

Elvin is massive on this (I mean, he's always massive, but there are some insanely powerful moments here)