I Really Dislike Frank Sinatra: How alone am I?

I don't like the way he delivers every line as though he's singing about himself.

But that's such a big jazz singer thing. He didn't write any of those songs, so he had to own them by how he sang them.

I've heard Only the Lonely before, but I don't particularly remember it, so I'll try to give it more consideration.

I do admit, his phrasing was spot on.

Frank's a better actor than he is a singer.

oh and side one of Sinatra and Company, the side w/Antonio Carlos Jobim.

I wouldn't give up my Miles Davis or Charles Mingus records either, and nobody ever accused those guys of being wonderful human beings.

A personal favorite album, and I can't say whether it would sway you or not, is the record he did with Antonio Carlos Jobim. The version of "I Concentrate on You" in particular doesn't sound anything like this:

Yeah, but I guess what I mean is that when he's singing a love song, I feel like it's more about him than a lover. I also feel like he's always doing his tough guy schtick, even when he's supposed to be vulnerable.

i do want to hear that late 60s thing he did that's supposed to be some bizarre attempt to be hip.

absolutely. sinatra and his ilk ... it's become music for people who don't really like music, which is a terrible shame. the westlife and robbie covers are proof incarnate of this. "ooh, westlife are the new rat pack!" no they're not, they're a bunch of chancing fucks who haven't an original idea in their heads, and sinatra would have had them shot.

"My Way" is a piece of crap (I prefer Sid Vicious' version), and most of what he recorded after 1960-1961 is rather uneven, until 1968, when his output becomes unbearable. THAT'S when the style overwhelms the substance.

The image has interfered with his art for too long. I thought you guys were smarter than this.

But consider the Rodgers & Hart material: "Little Girl Blue," "My Funny Valentine," and above all "Fly Me to the Moon." Classic, classic, classic.

And as for this--

I especially hate the song New York, New York, not because it's overplayed, but because it's the embodiment of the idiotic attitude of slicksters who drive around in their BMW convertables listening to Sinatra and thinking they're "king of the hill, top of the heap."

Doesn't this critique verge on being extramusical? Along the lines of "I can't stand [insert act here]--it's music for frat boys/people who wear ties and work in offices/people's dads/people's moms."

Ditto on the "he was an asshole" line of argument.

Yeah, but what about the music?

Dude was a great artist in his prime. But the memory of his bloated decline is what stays in people's heads.

Do you mean Watertown? It's a concept album/song cycle thingy, done in collaboration with someone from The Four Seasons (I think). It's bloddy great. For some reason it reminds me of Berlin by Lou Reed.

But I got the message about ten years ago. His work up until about '67 is mostly great...the Capitol concept albums are all masterpieces. In fact, I used to yank the chain of this dude in Memphis who called Dylan "the Shakespeare of our generation" and all that shit--I'd say, "yeah, Sinatra was far better than Elvis." 'Cause really when you think about it they kinda did the same thing, at root--reviving old music, interpreting, doing the hits of the day, all that. I like Elvis fine but Sinatra was far and away the better singer. The dude would say, "but Elvis was doing something new, Sinatra was not." Howzzat? Elvis started out doing songs that had been done before, from Crudup and Bill Monroe and others, just like Sinatra was doing his Great American Songbook shit. I mean, Junior Parker and Crudup and Monroe, don't they belong in the Great American Songbook? It's just a matter of who's reviving whom, whether you were from Hoboken or Memphis.

Anyway, I don't have anything to say one way or another to those who don't like Sinatra--fine, there are plenty of lauded people about whom I'm indifferent for my own reasons (Neil Young, Van Morrison, the Ramones, Bowie, etc.). But to say Sinatra couldn't sing--I dunno. He certainly had the respect of everyone who worked with him, he had ears, he thought about what he was doing, he was a totally conscious artist.

Nick Tosches wrote a funny book about Dean Martin--many have said he played fast and loose with the facts. I think Dean was really what Frank wanted to be, an actual tough guy and all that. And Dean could sing, he was very good. But it's just Nick Tosches takin' the piss when he said that Dean was just as much an artist as Frank. Come on. Entertaining but just a product of Tosches's desire to be an iconoclast. Listen to Sinatra with Red Norvo, that live stuff, and tell me if he didn't deserve to be ranked with great jazz singers like Holiday and Armstrong.

As for Sinatra - it's all about "It Was A Very Good Year" for me, so sober and tragic and bittersweet; I like the way he talk-sings, so theatrical. I also associate the song with Leone's "Once Upon A Time In America" for some reason, all that nostalgia and regret and age. Bought "In The Wee Small Hours" last Summer, hoping for more stuff like that, but it kinda put me to sleep. Looking at the album cover seems much more rewarding than actually listening.

all that swing shit is appaling though. bet jamie cullum's got his greedy little eye on an album of it too.

This is a ridiculous statement. Of course he was a musician, and a good one.

A few months ago I saw that one tv special where he does duets with Jobim and Ella Fitzgerald and then lets them do solo stuff, and it's so cool to see him sitting on the floor next to the stage just grinning and enjoying Ella's singing

that's one of the mysteries of art. Lou Reed is supposedly a real twat, and yet that twat wrote "Candy Says" and "Stephanie Says." The twat was responsible for "Berlin" and "Mistrial."

As for Sinatra not contributing to arrangements - well, that's ridiculous and ignorant assertion, based on the assumption that because he didn't play an instrument he just walked into a studio and sang the hell out of something. Sinatra not only sat down with Nelson Riddle and his orchestra to work out the arrangements, he also CONDUCTED the orchestra on several albums, most notably on a Dean Martin album whose name escapes me.

it's just that this seems to go some way further; it's like the most extreme case i've ever heard - how can he ache so much for something he considers fundamentally worthless? it's such a mystery.

yep he was often quite passionate about the arrangements

And the Elvis version SUCKED compared to the original.

you wanna hear extreme, listen to charles manson singing "home is where you're happy." as imperfect men making perfect art go, sinatra was but one of a million. nothing remarkable about him in that sense.

OK from my nickname you probably know how I'm going to vote here, but certainly his peers would have disagreed. Many years ago someone (the BBC?) conducted a poll of over a hundred jazz musicians, arrangers etc as to who were the greatest ever jazz singers, male and female. Guys like Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Quincy Jones etc were among the respondents. Sinatra not only won the male category, he scored more than 60% of all votes cast (including Miles's, obv). To put it another way, in a constituency made up of jazz greats, the combined total of votes for every other male jazz singer who ever lived was less than 2/3 of the votes cast for Sinatra.

I read the Nick Tosches book- Dino, Living High In The Dirty Business of Dreams, I believe- and it was very entertaining, but I agree with es hurt, NT was taking the piss a little bit. It was written before Rat Pack Cool came in- at the time all those guys (except Frank, I think) were viewed as jokes. I like Dino in movies- when he sings "My Rifle, My Pony and Me" with Rick Nelson(!) in Rio Bravo or especially when he sends up his own image playing a character called Dino in the underrated Kiss Me, Stupid.

I think Hurting's original objection is sort of personal rather than technical, unless I misread something. And I haven't thought about it much, but it seems to me that influence-wise, he's the number-two popular singer of the past century, after Louis Armstrong, if the wisdom I have received is correct.

which is all to say: sinatra was a fucking grandmaster of a musician.

Frank Sinatra was arguably the most important popular music figure of the 20th century, his only real rivals for the title being Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley, and the Beatles.

Horseshit

My recieved Wisdom throws Ella up there too, for what that's worth.

Stormy's recommendations are solid, and as I mentioned above, I'd also get "Francis Albert Sinatra and Antonio Carlos Jobim."

Also good: "Come Sing With Me" and "Come Fly With Me"

It's hard for us to see why Sinatra and Crosby were so revolutionary in their day, because just about everyone who came after absorbed their innovations. Try talking to someone who lived through the 40s though, and you'll get a different perspective.

This is a ridiculous statement. Of course he was a musician, and a good one.

I meant that he was not an arranger nor a songwriter, and he didn't try to be one. People layed the music down and then he proceded to phrase the lyrics around that.

I guess he had as say in arrangements but I am pretty sure he didn't layed any scores down. There is no reason, especially with the power he held, why he wouldn't have had a say in what he sung. All I am saying is that his main contribution was in the vocal arrangements and singing the song as best he could.

"My Way" is a piece of crap (I prefer Sid Vicious' version), and most of what he recorded after 1960-1961 is rather uneven, until 1968, when his output becomes unbearable. THAT'S when the style overwhelms the substance.

Lyrically and musically, the song always struck me as a piece of defiant hubris - the kind of thing you might sing before being sucked straight into hell. There is something about it that suggests the character has not only failed to triumph except in his own mind, but that he has somehow failed to see beyond his own needs. One could imagine, perhaps, a very rich and unhappy man singing that song.

OK just to remind you, AMG says Frank Sinatra was arguably the most important popular music figure of the 20th century, his only real rivals for the title being Bing Crosby, Elvis Presley, and the Beatles. So this is about 'figures', ie great musicians who largely defined 20th century popular music. Can anyone seriously think Duke Ellington, James Brown, Billie Holliday, Louis Armstrong, Charlie Parker, Ella Fitzgerald, Miles Davis, Ray Charles
come nowhere near the likes of Bing Crosby and Elvis Presley in terms of overarching importance? As you say, if you define importance as popularity then AMG's picks might be the ones, but that's not what the word conveys to me.

yeah, this whole "no, so-and-so was the most important" stuff is k-boring.

and i agree this stuff is k-boring, but amg started it!

Those wacky AMG dudes! Sometimes they right, sometimes...but the above is one stupid-ass statement. Obviously, it's Louis Armstrong. I think Bing and the Chairman would've agreed...Elvis, I dunno, he would've said "that little negor fellow we bumped into on the Strip," or something. Or one of the Blackwoods maybe. That's one thing I never got about Elvis--why couldn't he have called up Sinatra and said, "I wish to work with the guys who play for you, that Bill Miller..Basie, is he available?" It's one of the reasons I say Sinatra over Elvis--I mean, OK, Elvis did use some good guys like in his band, like James Burton, they were fine, but he could've done so much more. "The New New Tennessee Waltz: Elvis and Jimmy Rowles Sing and Play Stick McGhee." "Elvis/Dolphy Summit at the Chicken Shack!!," an album of Louis Jordan tunes arr. by Oliver Nelson. "Delta Duck Got Webb-Foot: Presley, Jim Webb Style." "Hillbilly Bop: Elvis Presley and Sonny Stitt, Burnin' at the Village Vanguard." Instead, he hung out in Vegas and Memphis and ate Nutty Buddies. I don't get it...I guess he really didn't have any fuckin' idea what he was doing, and Sinatra did.

TS: Sinatra's racist banter vs. Eminem shooting gays

uh, you don't get it

I can't stand Frank, either. Beautiful voice, I will grant you, but most of his music makes me want to kill myself. Depressing stuff when you think about it.

But that's so often what makes it great! I imagine you don't like Joy Division either.

He wasn't too popular with the GI's coming back in '45 and '46 either.

Xpost
Songs for Swingin' Lovers, A Swingin' Affair, Come Fly With Me, Come Dance With Me and Sinatra's Swingin' Session!!! — all of which are great — are hardly depressing affairs.

I still have a vivid memory of being in the back seat of my parents' car as a youngster on a rainy day, and hearing the radio play Frank's version of "Cottage For Sale." Being a rock and roll loving youth, I thought this was the most lugubrious, horrible song ever, and it pretty much summed up what I thought of Sinatra in general. It took me another decade or so to come around to the swingier stuff, and even longer to "get" this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_hVwk3CXzk

yipee! i'm not alone. FS couldn't sing! the songwriting is terrible too, though i'm not sure if that's his fault.
― xenografia, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 4:20 AM (6 years ago) Bookmark

can we look into retroactive SBs?

also re: My Way, Frankie himself hated that song for many of the reasons listed ITT. He hated the lyrical content.

Jesus fuck, this thread is a monument to tin-eared idiocy.

You just need to get him under your skin to appreciate him.

Man, fuck Frank Sinatra; I can't go out for Italian, go to a mall, go to the fucking dentist without hearing this shit nonstop!

"music for people who don't really like music," is right

I could listen to the sad-bastard ballad albums forever tbh, but fuck ever listening to the upbeat stuff

So you haven't got the world on a swing?

geez Dan I, an awful lotta musicians like Sinatra.

Jesus fuck, this thread is a monument to tin-eared idiocy.

― that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 1:46 AM (six years ago)

yeah, what he said.

I'd rather listen to racists, homophobes, misogynists -- hell, even rockists -- than hear little boys crying wolf about it.
― Heidy- Ho, Thursday, February 3, 2005 5:02 PM (thirteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha this is classic old skool ilm - rockism as being perhaps worse than racism, homophobia, and misogyny

I could listen to the sad-bastard ballad albums forever tbh, but fuck ever listening to the upbeat stuff

― Simon H., Tuesday, February 6, 2018 1:46 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk man i feel like you need both sides

It took me forever to realize that Sinatra's style reminds me post of spoken word poets. You either buy into how he's using rhythm and emoting across the sung lines and it gels when the material is good or it just seems incredibly indulgent and induces terminal eye-rolling

are there any Sinatra songs with falsetto?

idk man i feel like you need both sides

just not his "Both Sides Now"

lol i set it up, you knocked it down morbs

stick around, jack, it may show

besides disliking his musical output a lot there's something really off-putting about his face

like i try not to judge because people can't help their face shape, but he always makes me think of a sculpture bust that was so badly made it turned cursed and malevolent

Man, fuck Frank Sinatra; I can't go out for Italian, go to a mall, go to the fucking dentist without hearing this shit nonstop!

― Dan I., Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:41 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

first thing I picture when I hear his music in my head is the Maggiano's next to the Border's near my parents house blaring Sinatra out front.

Man, fuck Frank Sinatra; I can't go out for Italian, go to a mall, go to the fucking dentist without hearing this shit nonstop!

― Dan I., Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:41 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

weird, i don't hear him played as background music anywhere.

Literally everywhere that wants to project "class" or "manliness" or "classy manliness"

MitchDan I., out!

I mean, i don't spend a lot of time in haberdasheries, but I assume it's all sinatra all the time

Sinatra fucking rules btw

fuuuuck frank sinatra right in his smug mouth

Or, IDK, maybe it was excusable in his heyday but being into Sinatra was already atavistic in the 70s, forget about now.

you're atavistic

Watertown is one of my favorite albums ever and I'm glad no filmmaker has ever gotten around to making a movie out of it.

This ^^^

I was APPALLED to find no Watertown tracks on Alfred's best of list.

I hadn't heard it! Facebook friends introduced me.

Tell it to the judge.

Doobie doobie doo-doo imo

It's a testament to his talent that you can buy him as a working-class schlub just trying to keep his family together (while in reality he was, on top of everything else, a damned steel magnate)

I don't think I've ever listened to Sinatra on purpose. Him and Elvis, I get it but I don't really need it.

he was an awful person. and most of his most famous (nowadays) music sucks balls, and that badness is magnified a thousand times by the losers making a career off of being fake sinatras.

however, In the Wee Small Hours (and some of Where Are You?) is absolutely god tier amazing and pretty different to his usual swingin' prick persona.

challenging opinions

What's this about Sinatra's swinging prick?

Ava had no problem

fake sinatra sounds like the name of a ska band

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trash_Can_Sinatras

ILM lol

there was a fellow when I was in college who posted to a local music messageboard who was obsessed with that, among other lesser-known bands

certainly out of my realm of expertise

??? their second album is really great

Their fans call them "the Trashies"

not "Frank Jr"

darraghmac are you into trash can sinatras?

Hum their big hit

My wife is into the TCSs, they're good!

Btw the largest outdoor malls in L.A. play Frank Sinatra all the time. I mean I think it's literally all the time.

this thread is like if someone started a beach boys thread and just complained about how much they hated "kokomo" and how sick they were of all those stupid guys w/ their dumb surfboards trying to be cool. it's music for ppl who don't really like music, man!

nah man, beach boys is music for people who think they like music but don't

but re: sinatra being played non-stop in certain public places, are there any other artists that get this treatment? I've been in many public places where they seem to play Sinatra exclusively at all times. I think this is where the "music for people who don't really like music" thing comes from--there are a shocking number of people out there for whom music literally begins and ends with sinatra; they don't listen to anything else, at all. only thing I can think of that comes close is a dude I knew who had the complete discographies of leonard cohen and billy joel on his ipod and nothing else.

like maybe Jimmy Buffett in the florida keys?

i mainly hear sinatra in, like, those pizza places that have black and white photos of new york on the wall

oh shit, i just remembered what probably was subliminally the entire reason I posted in this thread in the firs place! I was recently dragged to a lower-middle-brow cathedral: the dale chihuly museum at the foot of the space needle, and it was all-sinatra up in there. it was very fitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuIcRiHlHoY

I have def been in a supermarket in the last year (in Brooklyn) where the PA was tuned to the Sirius Sinatra station.

if u dont fuck with this song i dont wanna know u on a deep personal level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG9YAHYe80I

the fuck is wrong w you people

September of my Years is a great album, maybe my second-fave overall

I fuck with "water to drink"

xps all time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5F6PXAZIRg

"if u dont fuck with this song i dont wanna know u on a deep personal level"

"the fuck is wrong w you people"

couldn't help but hear both of these in sinatra's speaking voice

well I mean I am frank sinatra so that makes sense

I hate Frank Sinatra because he’s a talentless mafia greaseball. I take severe offence at people referring to him as a “jazz” singer. I’m a jazz pianist and I’ve worked with a lot of talented jazz singers. Fundamentally, TO BE A JAZZ SINGER YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SCAT and Frank Sinatra never did. He just sings songs like any shmuck can. He can’t improvise, so he’s not a Jazz singer. My Dad liked Frank Sinatra and I asked him why. My Dad then said “he had perfect pitch”. Who the fuck cares, millions of singers have perfect pitch. It’s very common. Frank Sinatra’s voice had a very boring and common timbre and anyone who defends his accolades obviously knows little about music or was completely brainwashed by the mob-pushed hype he was given by the music industry. To me, he is a pale copy of several African American TRUE artists that, due to the despicable racism of America, were forced to live in the shadow of his limelight as he completely ripped off their styling, phrasing, etc and lacked the skill of the most important component: soloing. I forgive my father for being a musical moron but, after all, he was a flagrant racist so what else should I expect. I blame J Edgar Hoover for turning a blind eye to the Sicilian mob and allowing this second rate lounge singer to attain such undeserved eclat.

I recently saw a rerun of Who’s the Boss Sinatra appeared on, and I remarked that he already looked and acted like a corpse, at which point my husband pointed out that this would have been around the time that Ronan Farrow was spawned.

You lost me a bit at the “true artiest” part because who’s to say, right, but I am right there with you up to that point. Great post

he sings like someone who has never experienced love in his entire life

having heard sings for only the lonely i feel like that is not true

sorry i'm obviously not posting in the spirit of the thread

You really don't understand about a life like Frank's. I mean, when you've loved and lost the way Frank has, then you know what life's about.

re the thread title, How Alone Am I? would make a great Frank Sinatra album. Arranged by Gordon Jenkins.

fuck frank sinatra

this thread is surreal

Frank rules. Insane thread and revive

I think you're getting him confused with Pink Floyd

i mean, ppl can like whatever they want to like, but i seriously have to wonder how many of the "sinatra sucks, he's not even a REAL musician" folks have actually sat down and listened one of his classic 50s albums, as opposed to just hearing his most famous songs now and then in a restaurant or being annoyed by the "rat pack" image or whatever

His craft isn't in dispute imo, I just hate listening to him. He sings like an asshole.

S/D?

the place i get my hair cut at plays him constantly but it's definitely for a gimmick and i'm pretty certain it's from a greatest hits comp because i can vaguely remember some of the numbers from my childhood.

I means it’s more like “yes I can, as long as Frank says so”

i mean, ppl can like whatever they want to like, but i seriously have to wonder how many of the "sinatra sucks, he's not even a REAL musician" folks have actually sat down and listened one of his classic 50s albums, as opposed to just hearing his most famous songs now and then in a restaurant or being annoyed by the "rat pack" image or whatever

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, December 20, 2019 6:39 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i rarely listen to frank but i was listening to "in the wee small hours" over the weekend. such a gossamer thin, delicate, barely there sound, like ambient music

I can only real deal with the ballad albums as I feel the endlessly self-pitying sadsack of those records is closer to the real Francis Albert Sinatra, and much more relatable than the mob-fellating macho wise-guy persona which I can't tolerate. I loathe Come Fly With Me and all that smug posturing shit.

Only The Lonely is the one though, those Riddle arrangements lift it to another level. The kind of record i've tried to avoid over-listening to in case the effect of it wears off.

Also what's this proscriptive nonsense that you can't be a "proper" jazz singer if you don't scat? There are numerous notable performers throughout the history of the genre who never employed scatting, we're talking about one specific vocal technique amid a whole vast range of different styles. Sure, being able to improvise is a huge part of jazz, but it's not the entire idiom.

I mean tbh I don't think Sinatra had an ounce of jazz in him but I felt that claim was so silly and reductive it needed to be addressed.

.

donrosebud making a last-ditch entry for 'most valuable new posters of 2019'

lol, exactly

donrosebud reminds me of Pete Buttigieg's debate performances.

some excellent barely-concealed bigotry itt, well done

Also what's this proscriptive nonsense that you can't be a "proper" jazz singer if you don't scat?

ahem...prescriptive nonsense

Did you get to the part yet where Sammy is coming out of the Copa, it’s about 3 in the morning and he sees Frank. Frank’s walking down Broadway by himself

As far as I'm concerned, crooners are one of the least intelligible aspects of American popular culture.

Someone gifted me OG copies of just about every classic Sinatra Capitol album (and even some not so Classic ones). The Lonesome Road is such a great song.

A jazz singer that can’t scat is like a basketball player that can’t dribble.

I don’t know who this Pete Buttigieg guy is but I like him already.

Pete "Bebop" Buttigieg

I don't know anyone credible who considers Sinatra a jazz singer. He was a pop singer, and a great one at that. But jazz musicians revered him for his musicianship. "If I could put together exactly the kind of band I wanted, Frank Sinatra would be the singer," Lester Young once said.

And sorry, but scat singing is not a prerequisite to singing jazz, any more than vocalese is. I guess Billie Holiday wasn't a jazz singer? Donrosebud's initial post is so ridiculous that I can't tell if he's putting us on or not.

Someone get Scatbo in here for a second opinion

lol

http://johnlahr.com/frank-sinatra/

Someone get Scatbo in here for a second opinion

― Evan, Friday, December 20, 2019 10:04 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago)

the moment when the FBI special liquids division was called to the scene

i kind of nod in the general direction of frank sinatra because so many people respect him, he was a pioneer in some ways (arguably the first "album" of songs meant to work together as a cohesive set of music? many people are saying? he always gets this accolade but it always seems like someone else must have done it first and just wasn't as famous), and apart from anything else he's a major cultural figure of 20th century america. when you're stumbling around the kitchen at 2am swishing around ice in a hatch rocks glass, you might say to yourself "ring a ding ding", absent-mindedly, and that means...something

but yeah, can't stand the way he sings. just not my thing at all

and plus, he can't scat! and that means he's not a jazz singer! lol

where's the safe for work scat thread? want to weigh in on how it's important to the 21st century but also not my thing at all

want to weigh in on how it's important to the 21st century

sorry, i meant - very obviously - the 20th century

arguably the first "album" of songs meant to work together as a cohesive set of music? many people are saying? he always gets this accolade but it always seems like someone else must have done it first and just wasn't as famous

as the piece Οὖτις linked mentions, it wasn't even possible much earlier since it was in major part a product of technological advancements

I don't know anyone credible who considers Sinatra a jazz singer. He was a pop singer, and a great one at that.

The distinction between "jazz" and "pop" is pretty fuzzy wrt the pre-rock era tbf.

Donrosebud, it's 99% of that jazz shit that is not music

gtfo

I can totally understand why the crooners became a sensation, after centuries of singers belting it out full force on stage trying to reach the punters in the back you suddenly get to hear measured, velvery soft voices on your radio, it must have been amazing.

Sinatra's conversational cadences are why I love him.

The distinction between "jazz" and "pop" is pretty fuzzy wrt the pre-rock era tbf.
Not fuzzy at all when you consider that one genre relies heavily on improvisation and the other does not.

How strictly did most people recognize that distinction at the time? Sinatra sang with Tommy Dorsey's and Harry James's big bands, he topped Down Beat's vocalist poll in 1941.

Sinatra played with jazz giants throughout his whole career - Dorsey, Basie, Jobim etc.

er sang with

The ballads are nice but I like the corny, swinging Sinatra even more. My favorite is Sinatra at the Sands because you get the corny jokes and banter as well.

Sinatra, Elvis, Streisand — undeniably enormously talented, but I'm not interested in the material they applied it to. (Exceptions apply for all 3)

How strictly did most people recognize that distinction at the time? Sinatra sang with Tommy Dorsey's and Harry James's big bands, he topped Down Beat's vocalist poll in 1941.

Sinatra played with jazz giants throughout his whole career - Dorsey, Basie, Jobim etc.
He also collaborated with Bono. That doesn't make him a pretentious rock poseur, however.

http://johnlahr.com/frank-sinatra/

― Οὖτις, Friday, December 20, 2019 11:12 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Great piece! Thanks.

i read that piece a while back, it's great

it's also weird that ppl keep bringing up elvis in this thread, he really has very little in common w/ sinatra apart from being a dude who sings

My favorite is Sinatra at the Sands because you get the corny jokes and banter as well.

I was listening to this earlier in the week - I agree that it's great (albeit not my favorite) - and so many of the jokes are totally inscrutable, not just because there's audience interaction clearly going on that couldn't be captured in an audio recording, but more because so much of the context for his rambling is incomprehensible from a remove of 5+ decades.

Granted, the Dino jokes are still funny.

i think it's just the prevalent (and, occasionally in their latter years, accurate) image of them both being corny showmen more than inspired musicians.

Sinatra rules of course, i actually prefer him to Elvis tbqf

I do too and its not even close

same

same

Donrosebud, it's 99% of that jazz shit that is not music

gtfo

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, December 20, 2019 12:08 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

dang, that is stone cold!

i love sinatra - esp love the recent 3-disc Standing Room Only (with shows from Sands in 66, Spectrum in Philly in 74 and Reunion Arena in Dallas in 87).

does hurting still hate him in 2019? hard to imagine someone hating him tho i do understand hating him if yr only exposure is New York New York

i love elvis but his career is incredibly inconsistent even during his "good" periods. there are tons of sinatra albums i can put on and enjoy from start to finish, which is not really the case with elvis other than the sun sessions.

Frank over Elvis here, too.

Miles Davis once said Sinatra inspired much of his phrasing on the trumpet.

He said something similar about Blossom Dearie as well, iirc.

I love Frank, it's Dino who leaves me cold.

Dino seems like the more likable *person* but christ his records are bad

is there a definitive Frank biography? even that two-part HBO doc barely seemed to scratch the surface

Dino's voice is very pleasing, and it works well if you don't give a shit as he doesn't

Elvis was a huge fan and debtor

Dean's career is basically an inside joke, which is abundantly clear when you see vintage Martin & Lewis TV appearances, and he's as funny as Jerry.

not denying he was v funny, and charming when singing on-screen. but the records? nah

wondering how many people itt regularly or ever listen to music featuring scat singing of any kind

it's all bobby mcpherrin, all day in my world

also frank rules.

I'm listening to Terry Callier right now! Man could scat.

I *love* Callier, esp The New Folk Sound of

scott walker scats lol

Harry Nilsson did a fair bit fwiw.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GZblX-nhdLE

... and Big Youth!

Steven Tyler, people!

Also: it's sad that Sinatra never got around to covering "Dream On".

it's never been mentioned itt but A Man Alone has a couple gloomy gems even if the concept is almost unbearably goofy (though of course not as goofy as "The Future")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trash_Can_Sinatras
― mh, Wednesday, February 7, 2018 9:04 AM (one year ago)

the only sinatra that matters.

Steven Tyler, people!

Travel news with Valerie Sinatra (The Day Today) pic.twitter.com/hYkYphHxnd

— Chris Morris Bits (@Morris_Bits) March 1, 2018

is there a definitive Frank biography? even that two-part HBO doc barely seemed to scratch the surface

The two volume biography by James Kaplan is supposed to be the one to go for, much like Guralnick’s bios of Presley. Caveat is I haven’t read them.

I don’t know if there’s a thread for acts whose best album is a live album, but for me Sinatra is in that category with a few others, Johnny Cash comes to mind. Both were kind of larger than life characters and that really comes through on albums like At the Sands or At Folsom Prison.

wondering how many people itt regularly or ever listen to music featuring scat singing of any kind

― Paul Ponzi, Friday, December 20, 2019 2:32 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Dizzy Gillespie's 1940s work with his big band gets regular play in my house.

I don't really understand the Elvis vs. Sinatra thing; they were such fundamentally different performers, with fundamentally different approaches. Sinatra could only make a ridiculous fool of himself if he ever attempted what Elvis did on "Blue Moon Of Kentucky" or "How Great Thou Art," just as Elvis would've been at sea if he'd tried to do what Frank did on "Mood Indigo" or "Something," the latter being a particularly clear illustration of how each approached the same material from different angles/perspectives.

It's really just the generational thing about Elvis displacing Sinatra as the most popular solo singer, and VEGAS.

just to bring it full circle: elvis called dean martin his favoite singer

I listen to a fair amount of music w/scat singing and would like I register the following Challenging Opinions itt for posterity:

Frank Sinatra could reasonably be considered a jazz singer
Frank Sinatra was a good singer
Frank Sinatra has a few pretty good to really good albums

(Nb: I am also in the mafia)

Dino's voice is very pleasing, and it works well if you don't give a shit as he doesn't

Elvis was a huge fan and debtor

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, December 20, 2019 2:27 PM

just to bring it full circle: elvis called dean martin his favoite singer

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, December 20, 2019 5:13 PM

double helix

At least it was below Ornette Coleman's dignity to bang Nancy Reagan on the floor of some backroom in the Whitehouse. And didn't old Blue Eyes have some oedipal thing going on in the early days?

I used to work and often drink with with an Afro-Caribbean guy known as "Chicken" who was a Frank obsessive and karaoke king, had a huge portrait of him on the feature wall of his lounge. He always dressed in crap suits and wore a trilby with a pigeon feather in it. I'm not making this up!

I suspect Sinatra was a rather shitty person but I've never esp believed that Reagan story. I don't think he liked em that twiglike.

anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSawinsjVKs

Can’t speak to his unpleasant personal failings but, in addition to Miles Davis, I believe Lester Young also listened extensively to Sinatra, particularly ballads.

Another similarity between Frank and Elvis: have heard stories about both of them, at least during certain points in their career about both of them being very active in the studio in the arrangement/production of their records, despite being “only” vocalists.

Finally, since Dornröschen has outed themself as a celebrated jazz pianist, would love to know the roster of scat-tastic singers they have accompanied.

https://kyigt1bcans3ofli94di0kch-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/9/files/2013/12/skatkat.jpg

Who knew Wynton Marsalis had so many ILM socks?

https://i.imgur.com/TX1u5zZ.jpg

I think there is an edge of sarcasm in Frank's voice that always seems to crowd out any warmth. Check his duet with Bing "Well, did you evah..", ok, he's supposed to be drunk, but there's a mean edge in there. Contrast that with other swing singers like Dino and Bing. Someone mentioned Terry Callier upthread, well he has swing in his voice, but it's rich and warm.

mean (I'd just call it edgy) often works w/ Cole Porter

Sinatra is usually warm in the ballads, at least in his prime

I listened to ‘Only the Lonely’ on a whim (partly stirred by this thread) and found myself enjoying it. The late Romantic orchestral sheen à la Delius or even early Berg and Debussy got me, as well as the fact that Frank isn’t really ‘crooning’.

late Sinatra (My Way etc) sounds grumpy af to my ears ... also the Live w Count Basie his crowd banter he sounds like he is moments away from telling audience to fuck off

but i agree w morbs, the meanness works w porter - cocky, even? - and his ballads have a lot of warmth

also the Live w Count Basie his crowd banter he sounds like he is moments away from telling audience to fuck off

but i agree w morbs, the meanness works w porter - cocky, even? - and his ballads have a lot of warmth

― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, December 22, 2019 11:50 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, complaining about Sinatra sounding too cocky is like complaining about Moon playing too many fills.

both are valid?

Have a soft spot for Frank as he was a big influence on me when I was developing my singing style.

Loved his version of Webb's "Didn't We"

Yeah, complaining about Sinatra sounding too cocky is like complaining about Moon playing too many fills.

― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Monday, December 23, 2019 12:03 PM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

both are valid?

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, December 23, 2019 12:11 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Both are inherent to their presentation and what made them great.

Have a soft spot for Frank as he was a big influence on me when I was developing my singing style.

Q: I Really Dislike Frank Sinatra: How alone am I?

A: exactly this alone, as you deserve to be:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cd/No_One_Cares_%28Frank_Sinatra_album_-_cover_art%29.jpg/220px-No_One_Cares_%28Frank_Sinatra_album_-_cover_art%29.jpg

well played

Heh.

Both are inherent to their presentation and what made them great.

That doesn't invalidate the criticism

i’m now imagining your singing style as a sinatra croon delivered at a king diamond pitch and if i’m wrong please don’t correct me because i think it might be the sound i’ve been looking for my whole life

― brought a kiss to the knife fight (bizarro gazzara), Monday, December 23, 2019 12:43 PM bookmarkflaglink

this heart of miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine
belongs to Amonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

*tips fedora, throws up insouciant devil horns*

Both are inherent to their presentation and what made them great.
That doesn't invalidate the criticism

This Metallica is too metallic. This hamburger tastes like beef. This weed got me stoned. Frank Sinatra was too cocky/took my dame. You go to Sinatra when you want cocky brio.

the ballad/"wrist-slitter" albums (as Frank called them) are 99% cocky brio-free tho, and also some of his best material.

I would argue that the manic-depressive contrast between those two approaches ("No One Cares" vs. "Come Fly With Me" for ex) is one of the keys to his greatness.

And Sinatra knew what he was doing, because he basically alternated releasing upbeat and downbeat albums for a number of years. If the new swingin' album wasn't your cup of tea you could just wait a few months for the next wrist-slitter to come out.

This Metallica is too metallic. This hamburger tastes like beef. This weed got me stoned. Frank Sinatra was too cocky/took my dame. You go to Sinatra when you want cocky brio.

horrible analogies lol

Just because some people (even MANY people!) like the very things one dislikes about something, doesn't invalidate their criticism. Hi, welcome to the world of subjectivity.

you could think that but you would be wrong

hi welcome to the world of ilx

Just because some people (even MANY people!) like the very things one dislikes about something, doesn't invalidate their criticism. Hi, welcome to the world of subjectivity.

So do you not like cocky music/vocalists at all? Cause if you don't, then my analogy is valid. If you do like cocky vocalists, let me know the vocalist you think is the optimal level of cocky. Thanks.

you kinda have to be cocky to be a good vocalist. it's the only way to evaporate all of the tension that prevents you from being a good singer in the first place

Lol why does this hinge on what I personally like?

i don't personally give a shit, just hear for the martinis

sit next to me, find out

Granny, I love you but . . .

Just because some people (even MANY people!) like the very things one dislikes about something, doesn't invalidate their criticism. Hi, welcome to the world of subjectivity.

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, December 23, 2019 5:30 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol why does this hinge on what I personally like?

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, December 23, 2019 8:56 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

still driving me insane to think about how many clearly rong posts have been made abt the legend frank sinatra

fwiw about 10 years ago i got super into 'songs for swingin' lovers' and its never let me down ... ace A++ album

yup -- it was a domino tournament album for years in my crew, well into 2003.

I was feeling this one the other night:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll0wkmVBg_c

yes! love that album so much!

I was just about to link Angel Eyes... albeit this more fragile TV version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub8l94E9Q5A

I’m sure there must be some good takedowns of Frankie to be found in old newspapers with older critics going “this kid’s ok but he’s clearly no Caruso”.

https://i.imgur.com/x7zTWpT.jpg

Brilliant

Never cared for him much, until I heard his "Send In The Clowns"... now boosted by the end credits of Joker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOUrnUktTjU

It's an older meme, sir, but it checks out.

2xp

mike you gotta hear Only the Lonely

Probably my favourite musical artist, certainly if you exclude jazz and classical and maybe even if you don't.

I’m sure there must be some good takedowns of Frankie to be found in old newspapers with older critics going “this kid’s ok but he’s clearly no Caruso”.

I once a photo of Sinatra rehearsing in an old Life magazine (not sure of the date, but it was from when Sinatra first got big, so probably some time in the '40s) that's captioned with a comment about his "caterwauling that occasionally resembles a song".

my grandparents both sang opera and thought Frank was trash

Ok boomer

tbf, Frank's take on Aida didn't work, not least because he kept interjecting "Jack!" for emphasis after every third or fourth line.

I have been convinced by the sterling work on this thread and have decided I was wrong about Frank Sinatra all along and won't be listening to him again.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Astaire%2C_Fred_-_Never_Get_Rich.jpg
Can’t sing. Can’t act. Balding. Can dance a little. Can’t scat. Not a jazz singer.

Got volume 1 of the bio mentioned upthread out of the library. It’s great, albeit lurid in places.

Producer Stephen Lipson is interviewed on The Hustle podcast and at 1:21:12 tells an amazing story about going to see a latter days Sinatra gig where Frank is so out-of-it the the orchestra has to contort itself (play silent in the loud bits because Frank doesn't know where the mic is) before collapsing in the middle of "My Way" before staggering up again like an aged punch drunk boxer who can't stop.

https://thehustle.podbean.com/e/episode-401-stephen-lipson/

tbf, Frank's take on Aida didn't work, not least because he kept interjecting "Jack!" for emphasis after every third or fourth line.

You got to use that "jack" sparingly, otherwise it loses its power. Exhibit A:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IHiBewYetI

(Surprisingly, the riff in "Smoke on the Water" adapts naturally into horn charts straight out of the big band era.)

"some day you will pay the tab I know"

Gonna have to get one of those five album cd sets, you know, the cheapie ones.

I do see capitol LPs in the charity shops, low price. I do end up wondering 'is that one of the good ones, or?'

I scored a new sealed copy of Only The Lonely from a charity shop for 1 euro a couple of weeks back. I'm really into hearing it but my player isn't. So stopped halfway through. Bummer.Had distorted it before that.
I mean fuzz guitar on The World We Knew is one thing, distorting this classic is just blasphemy surely.

The first Capitol CD's (from 1987 and 1991) are cheap and easy way of getting those albums in decent quality. (The remasters issued in 1998/2001 are notoriously awful, some of the worst examples of "remastering" by a major label.)

Also, Sinatra was apparently a good sport about Piscopo's parody - I wasn't sure if he would be because sometimes he doesn't take a joke too well. Brad Garrett opened for him for a while and at the end of one good set, he told the audience, "thank you, and please stay for Mr. Sinatra." The next day, Sinatra's manager called him in and said "Frank wants to know what you meant by that." And Garrett was like "it was a joke! Of COURSE they're going to stay for Frank, they're here for him, not for me." The manager was like "oh yeah sure....Frank doesn't want you to say that anymore."

Great Lipson interview - they're all chock full of great anecdotes - but that podcast host is the worse kind of blabbering fanboy.

I remember Piscopo saying that his Sinatra impression came from a place of respect, whereas he criticized Phil Hartman’s Sinatra for being mean-spirited and “disrespectful to Mr. Sinatra.” I always thought Hartman’s was funnier. Not by a lot, but he went places Piscopo wouldn’t touch.

The sketch of the Duets recording sessions with Adam Sandler as Bono was probably the only worthwhile thing to come out of that album.

Sorry, but this thread makes me imagine…

How Alone Am I? (Capitol, 1959; Arranged and Conducted by Hurting, assisted by Gordon Jenkins)