Stupid 50 Cent diatribe -- but is it racist?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

I just called this mouthbreather out on my local message board for being a racist Oak Ridgian wight-wing fuck. Now I am getting all types of guff. Was I in the right?

In a message dated 3/19/2005 11:23:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, My3rdeye writes:
I just emailed Reebok because i am so disgusted about this fucking commercial. If anyone feels the same let them know at

[email protected]

" I finally saw the Reebok commercial last night with 50 cent in it,and it made me want to puke, seriously my stomach was in knots. Hey lets put a fucking no talent thug on a shoe commercial and glorify the fact that he's proud of having gun shot wounds from being a ghetto fucking reject. People wonder why the youth of today thinks its alright to carry weapons because it makes you "hard". At one time i thought Reebok was the most comfortable and affordable shoe on the market until now. If you are going to take that route in marketing by using a known thug who sings of breaking laws and degrading women just to try and boost sales then you need to come up with a new line of shoes that are slip on with no strings and call it the prison shoe. Make commercials with real felons who kill , rape and steal because we all know how cool it would be to be in jail. I will no longer support you company and will do my best to get everyone to do the same.

Oak Ridge"

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Oak Ridge!!

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

My 3rd Eye?!?!

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Well you are certainly right about right wing. This fuckhead stole this schtick from Bill O'Reilly.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:44 (twenty-one years ago)

What is a ghetto fucking reject btw?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

don't know why you're so shocked, read any thread about 50 cent on ilm and you'll encounter the exact same arguments.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Where did I say I was shocked?

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:48 (twenty-one years ago)

you didn't.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Doesn't seem racist to me. Just moral outrage type stuff.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Aside from "no talent" which is a subjective and thus obviously verboten here on a music discussion board, what's wrong with his statement(s)? 50 Cent uses his criminality as a selling point; I doubt anyone would say different. This guy is upset by that. Where's the problem? He doesn't seem to be saying anything derogatory about black people in general, nor does 50 Cent's blackness seem to have any impact on this guy's opinion of him (at least, going by this statement).

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:49 (twenty-one years ago)

50 cent doesn't use his criminality as a selling point. he is not a criminal for a start.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

read any thread about 50 cent on ilm and you'll encounter the exact same arguments.

and what does this say about ilm?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

nothing new i guess. some posters just don't like rap music but are incapable of telling us why without resorting to kneejerk quasi-racist generalisations.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I think it's his tone and the use of "ghetto fucking reject", etc. Also, the dude's problem seems largely to be about 50 being "from the ghetto."

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:57 (twenty-one years ago)

From 50's AMG bio:

>Born Curtis Jackson and raised in Southside Jamaica, Queens, 50 grew up in a broken home. His hustler mother passed away when he was only eight, and his father departed soon after, leaving his grandmother to parent him. As a teen, he followed the lead of his mother and began hustling. The crack trade proved lucrative for 50; until he eventually encountered the law, that is, and began making visits to prison. It's around this point in the mid-'90s that he turned toward rap and away from crime.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 19 March 2005 21:59 (twenty-one years ago)

speechless.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

sonned by an amg bio.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

to be fair, if i had been shot 8 times and survived, i'd be pretty damned proud of myself.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

(yeah, for real!)

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't think its racist either. I think its just ignorance. Can people not see that exploiting 50 Cent's troubled past is no different than exploiting some chick's big tits in some commercial?? Its absolutely the same goddamn thing. Its all about marketing - what other gimmicks could you expect to come up with for 50 Cent?? This is really where America is right now. And I promise its only gonna get worse for the folks that have such a hard time accepting these facts.

I suppose anyone who blames 50 Cent for kids carrying guns are the same folks who blamed Marilyn Manson for the school shootings in Kentucky and Colorado and blamed Eminem for teaching kids the word "faggot".

― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

50 got shot as a result of living the "thug life", and everybody knows being a thug is nothing to be proud of.

it's all about context

― modernaire, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:17 (twenty-one years ago)

>Can people not see that exploiting 50 Cent's troubled past is no different than exploiting some chick's big tits in some commercial??

Of course. But in making that statement (and the rest of your post) you imply that there's nothing wrong with that. Is that how you feel? Please explain.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

it's unfair to pick on rappers (black) all the time is what he's saying.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Can people not see that exploiting 50 Cent's troubled past is no different than exploiting some chick's big tits in some commercial??

How, exactly, are selling crack and having big boobs in any way similar?

And I promise its only gonna get worse for the folks that have such a hard time accepting these facts.

What exactly do you mean, "facts"? In what way is marketing a "fact" that needs to be accepted? That's just messed up. I don't need to accept the "fact" that SUVs are badass, and I don't need to accept the "fact" that 50's drug-dealin' past is awesome either.

I don't think the guy is racist--he's just pissed off, which makes people write in a pissed off way. But his complaint is perfectly valid.

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:24 (twenty-one years ago)

If your complaint mirrors Bill O'Reilly's complaints your complaint it is NOT perfectly valid.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I really just don't care about it. Reebok commercials ARE NOT reality. I guess my point is if I'm gonna bitch about this I should bitch about the way women are portrayed on television and shit like that. I'm not gonna go there until I think the people in this world are actually too dumb to distinguish between reality and Reebok commercials or an artist's bio or what the fuck ever.

― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:27 (twenty-one years ago)

All black youths should get their asses in university and listen to indie rock.

― Aaron A., Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

It's not like the opportunity isn't RIGHT THERE FOR THE TAKING!

― Aaron A., Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:30 (twenty-one years ago)

white people have guns aswell.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:31 (twenty-one years ago)

but they use them for shooting cans and mice and stuff.

― scg, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

and their wives

― I got the job because I was so mean, while somehow appearing so kind. (AaronHz), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I really just can't believe that anyone gives a shit about this. I didn't say any of it was right I just think it is what it is and its not affecting the world the way a lot of folks want to say it is.

50 Cent is doing well for himself. I think that anyone can see that. That is actually something kids could look up to - considering he's been shot nine times; eh?? If I had a child and he listened to 50 Cent I would just try to make sure he or she saw the positive things like that. 50 Cent is NOT threat to our society. jesus fucking christ..

― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Can people not see that exploiting 50 Cent's troubled past is no different than exploiting some chick's big tits in some commercial??

This is only valid if she's had implants. Having naturally large breasts involves little moral agency.

― M. White (Miguelito), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay Alex, I mean we can re-word this guy's statement to get rid of the annoying stuff, in which case it goes something like this:

"1. It makes me really mad that people think 50 Cent is a badass because he's been shot--when the reason he was shot is because he was a crack dealer. What's admirable about that?
2. Kids who admire 50 Cent probably think it's cool to carry guns and be criminals because 50 Cent was a criminal. That sucks.
3. Reebok should think about the bigger picture before using a former criminal whose songs are about breaking the law and degrading women to sell their shoes--even if he is popular.
4. If they're going to use a bad-ass outlaw image like this to sell their products, they might as well use people who are just plain old criminals, and not rappers too."

I mean, this seems perfectly valid to me. He might be taking everything a little too seriously, and he doesn't acknowledge 50's (presumed) talent. But what about this is objectionable? I mean, it is true that some of 50's songs are like, "I am a badass criminal, isn't that awesome?" I'm not saying I agree with this guy 100%, but I think it's a little over-the-top to call him racist. I mean, presumably even Reebok agrees with him, since one of their spokesman said ""Reebok does not condone every action, choice or view expressed by the athletes and entertainers who wear our products" in response to complaints about the ad in the UK. I mean, he does brag specifically about how badass it was to be shot, etc.

xpost

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:39 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/music/50-cent/50-cent-ms-smaller.jpg

― shawn graves, Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

a) the ad (from what i've read of it) implies that 50 cent is doing well BECAUSE he was shot nine times;
b) since when does something have to be a Threat To Society for someone not to like it?

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, whatever, this is a conversation we can have every day for a year and get nowhere. All I'm saying is, objecting to this stuff does not make you a racist.

― mrjosh (mrjosh), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:41 (twenty-one years ago)

xxpost:

Right, but when you reword it like that, you're removing the tone and leaving just the content, and it seems like Roxy was reacting as much if not more to the tone. And the tone is obnoxious. I'm not positive it's racist, but invoking "ghetto" like that is definitely trading in code words (and right, 50 says he's "ghetto" too; he also says he's a nigga, which is likewise not OK for Oak Ridge dipshits to say). On the other hand, I hear the same kind of "no talent" blah blah venom directed at commercial country, so the obnoxiousness of the tone is not only down to its quasi-race-baiting.

Better question is whether it's worth the effort to argue with somebody who posts stuff like that. But I'm not always able to refrain either.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Its all entertainment. I've never even thought about the gunshot story a second time since I heard it. I like his music and thats it. I wouldn't give any more of a fuck if I didn't like his music.

People can not like it all they want; but they sound like bitches whining about it and thats what I don't fucking like. Turn off the TV next time.

― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:46 (twenty-one years ago)

There is nothing rascist about the statement. However, his cultural and non-music-related reasoning behind what he is saying suggests it may well be a rascist behind the statement.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 19 March 2005 22:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Did ya'll get this upset when Eminem talked about snorting Lortabs, killing his daughter's mother, and raping his own??

― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:21 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.boardsmag.com/screeningroom/commercials/1588/ (please cut and paste the link to view)

― mark p (Mark P), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:46 (twenty-one years ago)

How, exactly, are selling crack and having big boobs in any way similar?

This is one of the greatest ever questions posed on ILX.

Also, I keep misreading everything here as "50s Songs" and I keep thinking: what's so racist about "Rock Around the Clock" and then I think "oh yeah".

As for the actual issue, the fact of the commercial makes me think less of both Reebok and 50 Cent.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow! I just watched the commercial that Mark linked. It's truly awful - especially the casual little foot lift at the end so that 50 can show you his Reebok's. Is the message that Reebok's will help you outrun bullets? Because it doesn't really come across. Perhaps 50 is saying that he was wearing them at the time of the shooting? But that wouldn't make sense either because then the viewer might blame the shoes for the shooting. Clearly guns don't kill people, Reeboks do, etc.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:53 (twenty-one years ago)

is scg trife's latest nom-de-ILM?

i mean, i suppose that one COULD argue that this post has some coded racism. but w/t any context to judge that, how to judge?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:55 (twenty-one years ago)

How, exactly, are selling crack and having big boobs in any way similar?

where's dan perry when you need him?!?

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Saturday, 19 March 2005 23:55 (twenty-one years ago)

For a guy who claims to hate right-wing punditry with a passion you sure don't have any problem buying into their moralistic racially coded bullshit do you, Eisbär?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Did ya'll get this upset when Eminem talked about snorting Lortabs, killing his daughter's mother, and raping his own??

The year 2000 called, it says hi.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:06 (twenty-one years ago)

*scratches chin* I have a gentle question -- I hope:

What is more 'correct' an approach in the end -- condemning the idiocies of mainstream society with less overt self-review and nuance in the name of getting a point across, or demonstrating more self-review even though that may make the condemning of the idiocies etc. less effective because of that more complex and self-aware approach?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:09 (twenty-one years ago)

self-review should actually improve the ability to get your point across. You avoid bad jokes about 'the prison shoe'.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:12 (twenty-one years ago)

No, Bill O'Reilly and this guy above are not "condemning the idiocies of our society." This is just scapegoating the people who make rap music for the idiocies of our society. There is a big differece.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:13 (twenty-one years ago)

it is idiotic to look at 50 Cent as a positive role model

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Somehow I'm sure Dame Dash and Cam'ron would say otherwise if they were here.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

good for them

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i also think its idiotic to look at Ken Lay as a positive role model, for many of the same reasons

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:17 (twenty-one years ago)

For a guy who claims to hate right-wing punditry with a passion you sure don't have any problem buying into their moralistic racially coded bullshit do you, Eisbär?

alex, i DID say that i COULD be convinced that the post in question (leaving aside bill o'reilly) COULD be coded racism. i just said that i reserve judgment till i get more evidence!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:18 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio it is idiotic to look at amy phillips as a positive role model too

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:20 (twenty-one years ago)

nice hang-up there, blount

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Eisbar, well I would say the obvious fact that people seem to spend more time worrying about criminal past of 50 Cent and his Reebok deal and the booty-ful rhymes Ludacris and his Budweiser commercials than for example, the corrupt dealings of PG&E, Enron, Worldcom, the Executive Branch, et all, might be construed as being just a little bit racist (if not a LOT pointless.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

the term is 'lay-up' actually tone - thank god for editors, huh?

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:24 (twenty-one years ago)

you ok?

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyway all this role model talk is bullshit. People aren't dealing drugs or shooting people in the ghetto because of 50 Cent. Get real.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

well they aren't doing it because of Enron either

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

um, in a way they are tone

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, the funny thing about how Alex initially answered my question was that I was thinking it of it more from the point of view of 'mainstream society = O'Reilly.' -- though that was precisely why I phrased the question so neutrally. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

and in no way are they doing it because of what's on TV and on the stereo

(x-post)

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean, i assume you mean "in a way they are" because of people like Lay doing in the ski mask way, you know?

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:29 (twenty-one years ago)

doing it

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

(xxxpost)No, but not having 50 Cent in a Reebok commericial changes fuck all whereas ACTUALLY successfully prosecuting and punishing the CEOs, CFOs and Board Members of those corporations might have an effect. Those people would be a LOT less likely to engage in illegal activity if it meant they would been spending long periods of time with people who deal crack and shoot at each other all the time.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:30 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe they were railroaded

― dave q (listerine), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

one reason i really don't spend any time worrying much at all about rightwing culture warrior schtick even though i luv luv luv pop culture (yknow - AMERICAN CULTURE) and hate hate hate rightwing fuxx (WHY DO THESE PEOPLE HATE AMERICA SO MUCH???) is that there is not the remotest chance in hell of them achieving even temporarily anything remotely resembling victory (on that front at least). one reason i maybe should worry about it is that the reason these rightwing fuxx fight these battles on these fronts in order to win battles on other fronts. ie. kelefa's ny times review of 50 to thread!

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes well obv that is the other problem with protests like these (THANK YOU FEMINISTS AGAINST PORN!)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:36 (twenty-one years ago)

i concur, but I don't have to waste breath one defending 50 Cent

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

one reason i maybe should worry about it is that the reason these rightwing fuxx fight these battles on these fronts in order to win battles on other fronts.

Hell, look at the NRO blog on the Schiavo thing these past couple of days. They don't care about Schiavo, they care about restraining an 'out of control' judiciary and are bending over backwards to try and explain away their inconsistencies ("it's not going to set a precedent, really!"). To their credit, they are actually if inadvertantly becoming more open about it (and also demonstrating how they're happily picking vulture-like at Schiavo as a result).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Taken as a whole, the complete list of PMRC demands reads like an instruction manual for some sinister kind of toilet training program to house-break all composers and performers because of the lyrics of a few. Ladies, how dare you?
The ladies' shame must be shared by the bosses at the major labels, who through the RIAA, chose to bargain away the rights of composers, performers, and retailers in order to pass H.R.2911, The Blank Tape Tax, a private tax levied by an industry on consumers for the direct benefit of a select group within that industry.
Is this a consumer issue? You bet it is. The major record labels need to have H.R. 2911 whiz through a few committees before anybody smells a rat. One of them is chaired by Senator Thurmond. Is it a coincidence that Mrs. Thurmond is affiliated with the PMRC?
I cannot say she is a member, because the PMRC has no members. Their secretary told me on the phone last Friday that the PMRC has no members, only founders. I asked how many other District of Columbia nonmembers of an organization that raises money by mail, has a tax-exempt status, and seems intent on running the Constitution of the United States through a paper-shredder. I asked her if it was a cult. Finally she said she could not give me an answer and that she had to call their lawyer.
While the wife of the Secretary of the Treasury recites "Gonna drive my love inside you" and Senator Gore's wife talks about "bondage" and "oral sex at gun point" on the CBS Evening News, people in high places work on a tax bill that is so ridiculous, the only way to sneak it through is to keep the public's mind on something else: Porn Rock.
Is the basic issue morality? Is it mental health? Is it an issue at all? The PMRC has created a lot of confusion with improper comparisons between song lyrics, videos, record packaging, radio broadcasting, and live performances. These are all different mediums and the people who work in them have the right to conduct their business without trade restraining legislation, whipped up like an instant pudding by "The Wives of Big Brother."
Is it proper that the husband of a PMRC nonmember/founder/person sits on any committee considering business pertaining to the blank tape tax or his wife's lobbying organization? Can any committee member thus constituted find facts in a fair and unbiased manner? This committee has three that we know about: Senator Danforth, Senator Packwood, and Senator Gore. For some reason, they seem to feel there is no conflict of interest involved.
Children in the vulnerable age bracket have a natural love for music. If as a parent you believe they should be exposed to something more uplifting than "Sugar Walls," support music education in schools. Why have you not considered your child's need for consumer information? Music appreciation costs very little compared to sports expenditures. Your children have a right to know that something besides pop music exists.
It is unfortunate that the PMRC would rather dispense governmental sanitized heavy metal music that something more uplifting. Is this an indication of PMRC's personal taste or just another manifestation of the low priority this administration has placed on education for the arts in America?

The answer, of course, is neither. You cannot distract people from thinking about an unfair tax by talking about music appreciation. For that you need sex, and lots of it.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:41 (twenty-one years ago)

haha someone at heritage saw the poll numbers (which are VERY pro-euthanasia) and thought 'fuck fuck fuck - TALKING POINTS ALERT: CHANGE FOCUS FROM "CULTURE OF LIFE" TO "ACTIVIST JUDGES"!'. this 'schiavo starves - on broadway!!!' is one of the more macabre things to hit the mainstream, sicker than prolifer fetus porn even.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

How is this racist if it makes no reference to 50 Cent's race?

― dmun, Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:42 (twenty-one years ago)

wah wah wahhhhhhh

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

haha did the willie horton ads make reference to his race? PLZ

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Something I often wonder in re: these arguments: In what way are 50 Cent, Jay-Z, etc. bad role models? Former drug dealers who cleaned up, became artists and parlayed their talent and intelligence into massive entrepreneurial success? I'm somehow not seeing the objection.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:45 (twenty-one years ago)

eazy-e vs ice cube

― dave q (listerine), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:47 (twenty-one years ago)

do i need to do some cut'n'paste from ohhla or will you just take my word for it that they have some questionable takes on women, the importance of money and the sanctity of life?

(x-post)

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean replace 'drug dealer' with 'drug user' and you could be talking about the president

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:49 (twenty-one years ago)

GET RICH OR DIE TRYIN'

http://students.washington.edu/right/1-29-02/enron.jpg

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I actually just sent an e-mail to Lopez at NROland an e-mail basically calling her an amoral opportunist with all her ranting over the past week. I doubt she'll read and care, but if she does and is offended and posts about it, then she'll complain she's been misunderstood, and if she *isn't* offended and posts about it -- she'll still complain she's been misunderstood! It's like feeding a troll who has a high profile -- while I can't win, it's still satisfying.

I have to say Miccio's having some good fun here.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:51 (twenty-one years ago)

and again, I'm not saying that this is a more pressing issue than white collar crime. I'm just saying that I don't have to pretend I like any greedy chauvinist fuck.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not saying you have to pretend to like anything. Actively aligning yourself with these fuckheads and increasing the profile of their criticisms (which exist for reasons a lot less well-meaning than yours) is another matter.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:57 (twenty-one years ago)

50 cent doesn't use his criminality as a selling point.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

This argument is stupid.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't see how I'm actively aligning myself with these fuckheads unless saying anything other than FUCK YOU FIDDY'S THE BOMB YOU RACIST!!! is doing as such

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:58 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio hitchens

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Miccio, I know what their lyrics are. I understand people not listening to them on that count. But socio-economically you still have to count them as success stories. And they tend to get decried by people who profess to love America's class mobility (such as it is) and entrepreneurial spirit.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 20 March 2005 00:59 (twenty-one years ago)

(xxpost)Did I say you were?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait...is there something WRONG with me enjoying hip-hop for its crime story aspect?

― deej., Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Oops I guess I did, well I didn't mean to. That should have been directed at any other number of other folks on this thread, I guess.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:01 (twenty-one years ago)

But socio-economically you still have to count them as success stories. And they tend to get decried by people who profess to love America's class mobility (such as it is) and entrepreneurial spirit.

OTM.

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:07 (twenty-one years ago)

yes, gypsy, like Dubya and Lay, 50 is a 'success story' of the 'entrepeneurial spirit.' more impressive, even. people who love Dubya are hypocrites if they don't love 50.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:10 (twenty-one years ago)

how is dubya (or ken lay i bet, don't know his bio) a success story of the entrepeneurial spirit?

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Miccio yr being deceptive. Just because someone doesn't love 50 doesn't mean they use neocon rhetoric to accuse him of all sorts of dastardly deeds.

― deej., Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:16 (twenty-one years ago)

....uh, miccio? Fiddy IS a success story (if we assume that getting out of the ghetto and into Connecticut is success).

― giboyeux (skowly), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

did I say they were deej?

(good point, blount re: dubya, cheney's a better example)

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

(if we assume that getting out of the ghetto and into Connecticut is success)

yes

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

haha he is???

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:19 (twenty-one years ago)

as much as 50!

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

not socio-economic wise, duh, but certainly entrepeneurially

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

sarcasm: people who love Dubya are hypocrites if they don't love 50.

No one is saying that people who love Cheney for making money are hypocrits if they don't LOVE 50. No one has to LOVE 50, but I think its fair to say that when a young black man makes lots of money entertaining people, the same people who prop up white success stories and then ACTIVELY attack 50 are being hypocritical.

― deej., Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:20 (twenty-one years ago)

depends what the whites are successful at

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Glorification of criminal crack-selling or whatever pasts of rap stars bothered me like 5 years ago, but the more I learned about consumerism and about advertising techniques it no longer did. I cant see how it would surprise anymore that mass media continuously taps into edgier and edgier vices or subcultures. Their aim is making the product seem cool and dangerous and for consumers to feel the same way about themselves for buying into it, vicariously through records or sneakers or whatever.

This isn't a new thing in the least, either. One example is the decades-old marketing of dangerous outlaw country stars.

Everyone just wants to root for the underdog (and of course, get a bit of that sweet associative glorification too). Instead of being shocked if you are uncomfortable with this, maybe you should be asking why.

― Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:21 (twenty-one years ago)

seriously if you're searching for a political bio analogue for 50 the name your looking for is bill clinton. or maaaybe john edwards. cross clinton's 'rags' with edwards' 'to riches' maybe.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

um miccio cheney's wealth is tied into 'right place, right time, right handshake' nearly as much as dubya's.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:23 (twenty-one years ago)

depends what the whites are successful at

This is correct, and so is Adam I think.

― deej., Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

and 50's aint?

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

(x-post)

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

um, i can't believe there's someone in america i need to say this to but you maybe need to read up on 50's story. ye gods.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I hope everyone has seen the artwork for 50's record. All the pics with the guns and stuff. I mean, this cat, he's laughing all the way to the bank. Look there's already over 100 posts on this thread. We've all bought in to 50's marketing strategy and I think its brilliant. Big ups to 50 Cent. I don't give a fuck.

― Johnny Badlees (crispssssss), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:28 (twenty-one years ago)

you're saying he didn't have a little help from his friends, blount? get in touch with the right people (like shady and aftermath for instance)? i know he had quite the underground buzz but we're talking about the $$$ here.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:30 (twenty-one years ago)

he didn't have half the help from his friends you've had from yours!

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:32 (twenty-one years ago)

i always love this moment

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I was there when 50's dad called his fraternity brother Jimmy Iovine and asked him to put in a good word with Dre for his boy Curtis.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I heard you sold your bullets for Reeboks.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

i apologize and take back my comparison. 50 got to his rightful status atop the pop charts the right way, the ski mask way.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:40 (twenty-one years ago)

(also, how can there be so much hate for the last man to put steel drums in the top 10? Steel drums!)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Who's that peepin in my window - WOW, the feds on me now
They know when I'm sleepin, they know when I'm wake
I know they got my phone tapper, I'm screamin fuck Jake
I'm tryin to stay out them pens, so I switched states
Bad News, VA - now that sounds great
I see niggaz with that ice on, rims shined up
This town's one big pussy, waitin to get fucked
I holla at AI peoples to get gats
They charge me 500 apiece for two macs
Then I'm back doin me, I'm back out on the spree
Catch me a nigga slippin out pumpin that D

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:47 (twenty-one years ago)

sounds like "Cheney's Theme" to me

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:48 (twenty-one years ago)

really?

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Who's that peepin in my window - WOW, the feds on me now
They know when I'm sleepin, they know when I'm wake
I know they got my phone tapper, I'm screamin fuck Jake

Enron investigations

I'm tryin to stay out them pens, so I switched states
Bad News, VA - now that sounds great
I see niggaz with that ice on, rims shined up
This town's one big pussy, waitin to get fucked

from Haliburton to DC

I holla at AI peoples to get gats
They charge me 500 apiece for two macs

defense budgets are a bitch

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:50 (twenty-one years ago)

if my unwarranted good fortune didn't bother you so much I'm sure you'd see the humor

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:51 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm sorry, how were the feds after cheney during the enron investigations?

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:53 (twenty-one years ago)

touche. change it to 'dems.'

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:53 (twenty-one years ago)

jokes land better when the joker remotely knows what he's talking about. hip-hop, politics: these aren't your forte. you're aces on networking gags though!

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:55 (twenty-one years ago)

thank god for editors huh?

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

pedantic and personal, nice combo

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

thankfully 50's giving me plenty of rhymes about haters

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:56 (twenty-one years ago)

you bite everything else! why stop now?

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 01:59 (twenty-one years ago)

50 : clinton
magoo : cheney
ma$e : dubya

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:00 (twenty-one years ago)

kool moe dee : truman

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

So who are Timbaland and Puff Daddy? Karl Rove and Grover Norquist?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:11 (twenty-one years ago)

timbaland: the carlyle group
puffy: the trilateral commission

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:14 (twenty-one years ago)

lil kim: susan mcdougal

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Hahaha

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Miccio yr acting like rapping about crimes = committing them.

― deej., Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:20 (twenty-one years ago)

more like glamorizing greed = not good

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

though i've been known to enjoy it at times. he's free to do it, i'm free to disrespect it

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:22 (twenty-one years ago)

They call me new money, say I have no class
I'm from the bottom, I came up too fast
The hell if I care, I'm just here to get my cash
Bougie ass bitches, you can kiss my ass

― deej., Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

They call me new money, say I have no class
I'm from the bottom, I came up too fast
The hell if I care, I'm just here to get my cash
Bougie ass bitches, you can kiss my ass

4 U blount

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:43 (twenty-one years ago)

When you were just a kid with your runny nose
With your everlastin sneakers and your bummy clothes
Before you ever thought of makin rap your trade
You were dreamin of Adidas while I got paid
Now you're sittin there wonderin how I know
About the days when you used to be an MC hoe
People souped you up, told you you were nice
Not only rock em once, rockin weak rhymes twice
For guys like you they should create a award
For the most attempts and the least that scored

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

since when did you get paid?

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

i sold some textbooks back this week! BLEE DAT

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 02:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I was once where you are, which is why I don't mind your sideline beef.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio if you can find one editor i've pitched something to i will give you a cookie. if you can find one i've written fan letters i will give you five cookies. if you can find one i've pitched to after writing them fan letters i will give you a box of cookies.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I only initially pitched cuz he gave me a ballot I didn't ask for (wasn't there a thread you asked for yours on?) and I felt I should try to earn it. no shame in my game. and there ain't nothing wrong with applying yourself and pitching reviews. I suggest you do likewise. Also, don't do drugs, stay in school and work on your game rather than hatin' on others. you got the skills and I think you could make it.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

dude my future's in medicine, like mekhi phifer or omar epps.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:16 (twenty-one years ago)

man, if I had $$$ like that coming my way the last thing I would be doing is giving a shit what young rockcrits were up to. But you're a true believer and I respect that.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I also wouldn't be bothering to listen to this Plastic Peoples Of The Universe album a friend gave me and would settle down with some nice Coldplay.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm thinking about the children

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:23 (twenty-one years ago)

children reading rockcrit are already fucked

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:24 (twenty-one years ago)

not literally, obv

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:25 (twenty-one years ago)

And now there is love.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:25 (twenty-one years ago)

i suppose i should get that Brit/Madonna pic out again...

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:27 (twenty-one years ago)

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:28 (twenty-one years ago)

haha bruce is making fun of bono kinda funny

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

otm

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:30 (twenty-one years ago)

and now he just made fun of the english

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Is 50 wearing eyeliner in that mug shot??

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:30 (twenty-one years ago)

by george, i think he is

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

he gave this really earnest shoutout to 'it takes a nation of millions to hold us back' too.

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

they probably made him take the wig off

(x-post)

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:32 (twenty-one years ago)

soon to be owner of the bonoburger franchise!

― j blount (papa la bas), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:34 (twenty-one years ago)

"At one time i thought Reebok was the most comfortable and affordable shoe on the market until now."

― Richard K (Richard K), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm curious if this is cathartic for Bruce or if he's being paid off to 'roast' the guy.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:36 (twenty-one years ago)

sorry, Bono is the one guy I've got conspiracy theories about (plus I just got off work in the last hour and am drinkin' a bit)

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:38 (twenty-one years ago)

is Bruce attempting to tell the truth about The Beast or is he just further diluting the certainty that he is the Antichrist???!?!?! The Rising points me towards the latter.

― miccio (miccio), Sunday, 20 March 2005 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

This thread is way too long already, so I'll just say...

I don't think the guy is racist--he's just pissed off, which makes people write in a pissed off way. But his complaint is perfectly valid.

OTM.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 20 March 2005 15:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry, but no. I find this to be lazy thinking. Lack of surprise is not the same as lack of reason for outrage. Yes, mass media cynically
coopts anything that seems cool or dangerous or exciting, even if that includes dealing crack and killing people. If you're a parent trying to raise kids in the ghetto, do you think it's any consolation to you to know that it's just "the same old marketing story"? Do you think you'd be satisfied with the argument that your kids shouldn't be "stupid enough to confuse the music with reality," even when some rappers are bragging to magazines about having actually done the things they rap about?

I like hip-hop. I love hip-hop. Jay-Z is one of my favorite artists, and he's a perfect example of what I'm describing. I don't generally hold any of this against him. I think record companies and media deserve more blame than rappers, and so does the buying public, in a way. But by now we ought to be able to discuss the serious problems that hip-hop and its marketing raise without getting shrill. We ought to be able to continue discussing the possibility that some hip-hop might actually help to perpetuate certain social problems without saying "Blah blah, same old argument" or crying racism.

― Hurting (Hurting), Sunday, 20 March 2005 21:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Hurting OTM (much like Bill Cosby is OTM, to throw some completely tangential oil on the fire).

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Sunday, 20 March 2005 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Yawn. You would.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 20 March 2005 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck you too, white boy.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 21 March 2005 01:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex, you are seriously going to look like shit if you pursue this argument with Dan. Your angst over "I like the music but the lyrics are un PC, what will I do?" is as nothing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 March 2005 01:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Fuck it, you guys want to pretend that this "think of the children" bullshit response to people like 50 Cent/Ludacris/et all is actually a intelligent way of dealing with the REAL problems which face REAL people in the ghettoes and prisons across this country then fine go ahead. But don't expect me to clap my hands and go OTM when what you are doing is mirroring the same blinkered reasoning that conservatives in this country rely on to institute the most horrendous anti-crime/anti-drug legislation and avoiding providing actual helpful solutions to deal with poverty and crime (which are the REAL issues here.) I have a WAY bigger problem with supporting that bullshit than I do with anything 50 Cent or Ludacris says.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:05 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh and Ned for that angst comment, fuck you too.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't like when people phrase it as 'think of the children' because the implication is that this kind of shit is a) good for adults and that the answer is b) censorship, and it ain't. to say there's nothing wrong with somebody talking a lot of dumb shit into large mic is stupid: if Bill O'Reilly is a bad influence on his audience then 50 Cent is as well.

I wish you could explain why its wrong to criticize 50 Cent and other grown adults who capitalize on the simple-minded power fantasies of others without mentioning that there are bigger fish to fry, Alex.

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Anthony, allowing these criticisms to dominate the national dialogue surrounding blackness is a large part of the reason their are bigger fish to fry! The dialogues surrounding these stereotypes are used to justify all sorts of legislation (as Ned as a resident of California during the late 80s/early 90s should be well aware) which facilitate the creation of the models for these stereotypes. So pretending that making this argument can exist outside of that framework seems to me to be almost impossible.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:29 (twenty-one years ago)

alex in sf OTM OTM OTM

― Richard K (Richard K), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:33 (twenty-one years ago)

50 Cent is the '00 ILM Bigger Thomas.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:33 (twenty-one years ago)

ok so is there any way I can voice my disgust with these things without allowing them to dominate the national dialogue? I don't see anybody actively doing that here and I only see you denying people the right to acknowledge their disappointment and disdain.

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:35 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean if I can't talk about lyrics on ILM, where can I?

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

There is a difference between dissecting lyrics and basically joining a national campaign to scapegoat 50 Cent (and other rappers.) I think even you are capable of sussing out the difference, Anthony.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:38 (twenty-one years ago)

are you? Who here is doing that?

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha Dan does make me the Jewish Communist lawyer?

― Max in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:41 (twenty-one years ago)

More than you know, I suspect.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyway, Alex, as far as I can see, you're essentially saying this:

"I have figured out the correct way to deal with this in terms of talking about it. If you do not agree with me, clearly you are a right-wing stooge."

Forgive me if I find that stultifying.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Howzabout:

"I can say with absolute certainly that this is a non-constructive and perhaps even destructive method of tackling what is really a very serious and complicated problem. Dealing with matters in this fashion certainly serves purposes which I would hope you would not endorse."

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 02:58 (twenty-one years ago)

In otherwards, what I said. We either agree with your 'absolute certainty' or we aren't worthy of discussing the matter with you, I'd guess. Charming.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Yawn.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Well I never expected THIS to blow up.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:08 (twenty-one years ago)

The thread on the board in question said "bigger fish to fry" a bunch of times, and I come here and it's all about some fish fry.

A follow-up from Oak Ridge that basically confirms that he is mainly concerned with the general criminality aspect and not so much the "from the ghetto" one (also confirming that he is retarded and proooobably racist, but not much to go on):

You are missing my point. i dont give a shit about 50 cent or the fact that he is a THUG from GHETTO, if you ask, about 85% of the famous rappers will tell they are THUGS from the GHETTO even if they arent. My bitch is that an athletic appearal company is trying to sell product by glorifying someone who is proud of being involved in the gangster lifestyle. It might even be a little different if he were a sports figure, but no lets just get some lame rapper who brags about being shot 9 times and sings of being a PLAYA (ebonics way of saying i degrade women) and make him a role model to the youth just to be second to Nike. Its a crappy marketing idea, with a crappy rapper involved. Call it racist if you want man i call having morals.

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

An xpost given Roxy's return, but a little something for Alex to consider:

There's a great little sentence I heard once that came from, allegedly, Thoreau, though I have searched for it without success so far. Supposedly, he said something like, "When I meet someone seeking for truth, I honor his work and wish him well. When I meet someone who claims to have found truth, I resist the urge to run away in fright."

I don't think I've found truth. I think I've found something that I work with for now that more often than not seems correct to the experiences I have and those I understand from the world around me. That this happens to lean much more left than right, say, and has for many years now is neither a sign of its total correctness nor of the fact that those who might disagree with me are incorrect, unintelligent or misinformed -- whether from left or right or wherever.

Could you say the same?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I call this making less and less sense as each sentence unfolds.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

woops x-post

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Ned, do you really not believe that there are some people out there who are incorrect, unintelligent or misinformed? Cuz if you do then not only can I NOT say the same, but I wouldn't want to.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Well actually unintelligent is a bit of a unmeasurable actually, but I mean certainly there are people who are incorrect and misinformed about plenty of stuff and quite often they DO disagree with me.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

And occassionally they ever ARE me haha

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Then show that some more. Ideologues are dull. Humans aren't.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Whatever. I like how this conversation has been diverted from an ACTUAL constructive reasoning for this line of argument to a discussion about whether or not I am ideologue. The usual bullshit.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 03:43 (twenty-one years ago)

You do have a point here: Making any sort of moral argument against rap music, even a very nuanced one, can seem like providing ammo to right-wingers. I don't think we're in any danger of doing that on ILM though.

Ultimately, I certainly don't think hip-hop is anywhere near the main source of problems in the ghetto, but it's worth dissecting what we're being sold here. Record companies are selling kids in the ghetto fantasies about themselves, and moreover, they're selling middle-class kids fantasies about the ghetto and about black people. There's nothing wrong with fantasies, even violent ones, in music, but when the music sold overwhelmingly expresses one fantasy about a group of people, I think there's something problematic about it.

― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 21 March 2005 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

It is problematic, but again the real problem is not the record company or the rapper. The record company is just looking to fill a demand and the rapper is just an agent able to do so. Neither one is creating the demand or for that matter the fantasy. Asking the record company to not sell 50 Cent is not an option, if they don't sell him some other company would meet that demand. And asking 50 Cent to not rap about his criminal past is also pointless. If 50 Cent didn't do it, again someone else would. The problem is the culture of violence and crime which is endemic to the ghettoes in this country and which exist largely because of institutional racism. There is probably always going to be some attraction to criminality (this cuts across racial lines) in this country. The idea of outlaws is a very fascinating and compelling one. 50 Cent and Interscope didn't create this fascination. Neither did Jimmy Cagney. It just so happens that the black male criminal is the most recognizeable outlaw on the American landscape right now. This is not accidental. The reason why he is SO recognizeable is because he exists, he fills a huge percentage of the prisons in this country. And he fills those prisons not because black men are more prone genetically to criminal behavior and not because of 50 Cent or Interscope, but because of institutional racism and poverty. THOSE are the real enemies here. If institutional racism and poverty didn't exist (or their power wasn't so great) the stereotypes still wouldn't disappear completely, but its profile would definitely wane (as would the attendant controversy about it.) The pimp stereotype would maybe exist on a similar scale to the mafia don and the yakuza boss, rather than eclipsing both.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:07 (twenty-one years ago)

"It is problematic, but again the real problem is not the record company or the rapper. The record company is just looking to fill a demand and the rapper is just an agent able to do so. Neither one is creating the demand or for that matter the fantasy. Asking the record company to not sell 50 Cent is not an option, if they don't sell him some other company would meet that demand. And asking 50 Cent to not rap about his criminal past is also pointless. If 50 Cent didn't do it, again someone else would."

Right, but it IS perfectly reasonable (though I wouldn't make this choice) for a consumer to say "I'm not going to buy Reebok shoes, because their advertising seems to endorse values I don't like."

― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:12 (twenty-one years ago)

gah john leland traced the history of the hip outlaw in his, um, hip book but i forget where he traced it to, i just remember it kicked into overdrive with hammett-chandler-thompson-cain/gangster flix/noir flix, the gangsta forming one leg of hipsterdom as far back as the idea of hip exists essentially.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:13 (twenty-one years ago)

A kid from the ghetto doesn't carry a gun because rap tells him to, a kid from the ghetto carries a gun because he's afraid of being shot.

― deej., Monday, 21 March 2005 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Totally. But I think this situation is a little more complicated than just deciding that you aren't going to buy Reeboks because let's say you don't like things that endorse criminal behavior (and I would be curious to know if this guy above doesn't let's say watch The Sopranos or Deadwood or The Godfather or Jimmy Cagney films or whatever cuz a huge portion of our entertainment celebrates criminality, but that would be another argument altogether.) This guy isn't just not buying Reebok. He's actively trying to convince other people to write letters to Reebok complaining because they have 50 Cent as a sponsor (which is slightly problematic right off the bat, but that goes back to the other argument.) Anyway, THE really problematic thing though is that this guy isn't just calling for a boycott on his own. Bill O'Reilly has devoted an entire segment of his show to this subject and has publically stated that "Reebok should be ashamed of themselves. . . . They're embracing a guy who's hurting children." So now you aren't just sending a simple message to Reebok arguing that criminality shouldn't be celebrated. You are sending a message in conjunction with Bill O'Reilly about how rap music hurts children. He has a nationally televised show and can yell a lot louder. What message does Reebok hear? The nuance message that criminality shouldn't be celebrated? Or the message that rap music is thug music that hurts children?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:32 (twenty-one years ago)

(xx-post)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:33 (twenty-one years ago)

or wants to be able to shoot others?

i gotta confess the jay-z one threw me for a loop the first time i saw it. i can't google up the text, but something about it felt like his story had gotten all changed out.

also, http://www.fashiongates.com/magazine/reebok-16-02-05-21041.html

also, "ebonics way of saying i degrade women"!!!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I wasn't really aware of the Bill O'Reilly thing -- I don't have a television, in fact. I see what you're getting at.

One might point out that the difference between The Sopranos and many rappers is that it's clear that The Sopranos are actors, whereas part of the selling of the *fantasy* in rap music is that you're told it's quite real -- some rappers really were drug dealers, and even some that weren't would like you to believe they were.

I have some issues with the way mafia is glorified in the movies as well (the romanticized way in which the mafia is always playing by its own *honor-based* set of rules -- i.e., they only harm people who deserve it and they're actually good guys). But The Sopranos isn't being marketed to a group of people who actually have a strong chance of joining the mafia.

― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Sterling OTM. It's a bit like the "gangs started out for protection" argument -- it's true, but it's doubtful that was the only reason people joined.

― Hurting (Hurting), Monday, 21 March 2005 05:42 (twenty-one years ago)

or wants to be able to shoot others?

This is the case from time to time i'm sure, but I imagine for the most part kids don't really hope to have to use it as anything more than leverage; "don't fuck with me, i have a gun," not "i want to go shoot people."

But The Sopranos isn't being marketed to a group of people who actually have a strong chance of joining the mafia.

You think the majority of rap listeners consider joining gangs because of rap?

― deej., Monday, 21 March 2005 05:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Or fuck, do you think ANY listeners consider joining gangs because of music?

― deej., Monday, 21 March 2005 05:47 (twenty-one years ago)

christ deej, it's fairly difficult to deny that a cultural acceptance of gangsta-cool has at least *some* real-world implications. 50 in a reebok ad isn't gonna make a difference, but the beef-merchants of hot 97 and 50 actually *getting someone shot* is hanging right there over this discussion.

speaking of which i know i'm getting curmodgenly when i start agreeing with greg tate this much, but his article on 50 is totally killer:
http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0511,tate1,62025,22.html

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:02 (twenty-one years ago)

How is gangsta-cool a new thing? What HAS changed and mutated over time is the racial factor, but the idea of gangsta-cool being something that came up with rap or NWA or 50 Cent or whoever? I don't really see it, personally.

― deej., Monday, 21 March 2005 06:06 (twenty-one years ago)

tate's been on the ball lately, it's a shame it's been in the voice instead of the source or xxl though

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"I wasn't really aware of the Bill O'Reilly thing -- I don't have a television, in fact. I see what you're getting at."

I don't have cable actually. I was only aware of it because the original post sounded slightly suspicious and I did some quick research which revealed the O'Reilly connection.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:37 (twenty-one years ago)

didn't paulie walnuts from the sopranos get arrested a couple of years ago for behaving like a "real" gangster?

(i know this is completely tangential)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Did he get arrested for doing those Stacker commercials?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:41 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't know what those are, but yes.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I hate "The Sopranos" on a few levels. 50's okay.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i can't believe i forgot about this:

In a case of life imitating art, Robert Iler, the young actor who plays troubled Tony Soprano Jr. on HBO's The Sopranos, was arrested along with three other teens early Wednesday and charged with second-degree robbery and drug possession.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha they are these commercials for some fat-burning athletic supplement that they used to show during wrestling telecasts. Paulie was their "spokesperson" for a while. It was kind of weird actually as I could never quite figure out what his big selling point was (unless the idea was you were supposed to think they were semi-legal or something because of him.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:45 (twenty-one years ago)

(this is all in response to someone saying:

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i was thinking of a more recent case but checkit: Tony Sirico, who plays Paulie Walnuts, was convicted of felony weapons possession in 1972 and served four years in prison. According to court documents, Sirico crashed a New York City disco without paying the cover several times and threatened the club's owner. On the night police investigated, they arrested Sirico for carrying an illegal 265 Berretta.

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I think "The Sopranos" fetishizes death and treats women more shabbily than 50 ever has, but that's just me.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:48 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't really see how a tv show that has some of the best-written female roles in tv history treats women shabbily!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:49 (twenty-one years ago)

do you mean that some of the characters in the show treat women shabbily?

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:50 (twenty-one years ago)

haha o man alex your head would explode if you had fox news, during the atlanta manhunt last week they chalked it up as 'obviously' a result of hip-hop culture, when the ron artest brawl broke out last fall it was obviously a result of hip-hop culture (rush limbaugh really rode this point, talked about nba teams wear gang colors now; the pistons colors are red, white, and blue so i guess he does sorta have a point there), 50's pretty far down their target list though, a bit below snoop and ludacris who's public enemy (rimshot) number one. i sometimes wonder how much of ludacris' audience has heard of bill o'reilly only becuz of ludacris blasting him and if it's as much as how much of o'reilly's audience has heard of ludacris only becuz of o'reilly blasting him.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:50 (twenty-one years ago)

do they share a publicist?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:52 (twenty-one years ago)

it'd be great if it came out that ludacris & bill o'reilly had some devil's deal thing going on to boost sales/ratings

(hah, xp)

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Outside of Carmela and Meadow and Dr. Melfi and maybe the late Adriana, I don't see much IMO.

― Gear! (can Jung shill it, Mu?) (Gear!), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:53 (twenty-one years ago)

four principal characters is kind of a lot!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:54 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean there's like 8 principal characters in the show anyway!

― s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha I bet my head would explode. I know I am supposed to know the "enemy" and all that, but I can't actually watch Fox News without feeling like reality is slipping away from me.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:55 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't watch Fox News w/the sound off at the bbq place I go to in Seattle for lunch w/o my head exploding. The bbq in Austin has my head exploding in a different, hugely pleasurable way, on the other hand.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:58 (twenty-one years ago)

my fave moment of the o'reilly-luda wars was when the source wrote one of their hip-hop under siege editorials blasting o'reilly and they kept calling him liberal. thank you benzino.

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 06:59 (twenty-one years ago)

who is the ILX equiv of Benzino, anyway?

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:00 (twenty-one years ago)

marcello?

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha that's fucked up.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:02 (twenty-one years ago)

OUCH

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

so all this time he's co-owned the URL and we didn't even know? damn!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:11 (twenty-one years ago)

btw, you need to read the Benzino entry in the newly expanded Rough Guide to Hip Hop by Peter Shapiro, which is pretty damn funny (as is a lot of the book).

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Is it a full sized version or another mini-guide?

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:21 (twenty-one years ago)

a weird hybrid--a full-sized update of the mini-guide. basically the same stuff updated plus some new things. the Kid Rock essay is especially amazing. quoted from memory: "after Devil without a Cause went multiplatinum, Kid Rock accomplished the greatest feat of anyone in his class: He fucked Pamela Anderson."

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:24 (twenty-one years ago)

So is it divided by artist or styled more like the Reggae one by history/period/sub-genre and then broken down within that to the artists/producers?

Only having a mini-thing for hip hop always seemed kind of an insult to me.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:26 (twenty-one years ago)

The formatting is exactly the same as the mini-version: One entry each on an artist/artist grouping/label. There are more sidebars now, though. Obviously the writing is still contentious as fuck (it's Shapiro).

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Monday, 21 March 2005 07:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Is Fox News a Tool of Satan?

― Adam Bruneau (oliver8bit), Monday, 21 March 2005 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh, fish fry with Wolcott on DeLay:

I don't want to hear any cultural virtucrat ever again work up a lot of flatulent thunder about 50 Cent or The Game or gangsta rap when the biggest thug around is a middle-aged white man who swaggers through the House as majority leader, making his own rules, punishing his enemies, and using his power and position to lash out against a private citizen with a sneering bullying not seen since Roy Cohn rotted away.

OTOH this thread has taught me that I am 'objectively pro-O'Reilly', I am upset. Haven't felt this bad since I was 'objectively pro-Saddam.'

― Hunter (Hunter), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 04:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Adopting the opposite views of someone you dislike makes thinking a helluva lot easier! thank you alex!

― ()ops (()()ps), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha was that your idea of an argument? Well at least I know who posts all those stupid anonymous comments about me on ILX now. Pathetic as usual oops.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 22 March 2005 06:01 (twenty-one years ago)

three weeks pass...

VICTIM'S MUM FORCES 'GUN' AD OFF TV Apr 18 2005

By Ros Wynne-Jones

A MUM whose son was shot dead has forced sportswear giant Reebok to drop an advert "glamourising gun crime".

Lucy Cope called for a boycott of their products over the TV advert featuring American rapper 50 Cent.

A shot is heard and he counts slowly up to nine - the number of times he was shot in 2000 in New York.

He asks: "Who you planning to massacre next?" then laughs and Reebok's slogan "I am what I am" appears. But Lucy, whose son Damien, 22, was killed in Central London in 2002, said that when she saw it "I felt physically sick, my heart stopped".

Backed by Mothers Against Guns, she launched a petition signed by 36 mums whose children were shot dead. Lucy, 48, of Southwark, South London, even urged stores to stop selling Reebok products.

More than 50 people complained to the Advertising Standards Authority and Reebok withdrew the ad in the UK. She said: "Kids look up to 50 Cent. They think if it's cool for him, it's cool for them. No one's a hero who is involved in gun crime. I wish Damien could have survived nine bullets. But one took his life."

Lucy has watched her son's last moments, captured on CCTV camera. She said: "Before he went unconscious, it was written on his face: 'I need my mum'. That's why I'll never sleep again."

Reebok said the advert was pulled after "a small number of people found it offensive". It is still being shown worldwide and was "intended to be a positive, empowering celebration of the right of self-expression".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 18 April 2005 07:29 (twenty-one years ago)

*shrug*

Good for her?

― $V£N! (blueski), Monday, 18 April 2005 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.