Hey rock critics, how big of a role do publicists play in whether or not you'll listen to an artist?

But looking at other shit bands that have PR it seems that they'll get you into magazines easier.

Do you have any that you are looking at to work with?
I'm looking for a good one too for my next release.

As a musician, I've learned this so far:
a) publicists WILL get you reviews
b) reviews alone* WILL NOT sell your cds

*even ecstatic ones

Does. Not. Work.

Writers know which PR companies are real and which are not. (Hint: the real ones send you an email every couple of weeks promoting SEVERAL bands)

- if you are going to do it yourself, then don't just send shit out blindly.
- have a reasonable marketing plan AND strategy. if you don't know what that is, educate yourself
- consider that you have to market yourself to a PR company; don't just assume that if you cut them a check that they will be an avid member of your team.

xpost

Well, trueish, but I get stuff from companies I've never heard of all the time - they've just nicked my address off another PR buddy.

Spot-on re: targetting the right hacks tho - another bloody dreary indie band, I do not want.

Annoying publicists ring you all the time about very ordinary bands.

Yes, there are some publicists whose envelopes I can guess are always likely to contain something at least of passing interest; and others where you can guarantee it'll be 90% tedious crap.

the point: learn which is which, and choose who to work for you accordingly!

Example. There's this PR guy who mostly represents horrible screamo bands. By some sort of fluke, he also did PR for a Namelessnumberheadman album -- which I loved, personally lobbied to get into Pitchfork's Best New Music section, etc. Ever since then, I am buried under piles of screamo and the guy won't take a fucking hint.

None whatsofuckingever. (Though I may be more likely to actully *get* some records if a publicist sends them to me. But the ones sent by publicists are given no priority at all over the ones sent to me by the bands themselves. And this is OTM: "a good rule of thumb is that the more the publicist annoys me the less likely i am to bother.")

I need these things in 200 words or less:

- General movie-pitch description of the act's sound, without using the Beatles, the Stones, the VU, or the Beach Boys.
- is this act going to tour, will the tour be extensive, and will they play my town
- have you sent me the advance already or not / can I please send you an advance

strongo OTM.

Hi JESS HARVEY!

I just got back from a MUCH-NEEDED VACATION in the Swiss Alps! Lemme tell you, those folks know their CHOCOLATE and how!

On your desk is the new AFI! It's a bold departure from their GOTH PUNK BEGINNINGS, and features a guest appearance by FERGIE OF THE BLACK EYED-PEAS! ROLLING STONE gave it FIVE STARS! Let me know what you think! Or send me your phone number so we can talk about MUCH-NEEDED VACATION! I'm gonna go get me some SUSHI and a COLD BEVERAGE! Hugs!

Well, if it depends whether your band seems like it might suck. If your band looks like it might be good, why *wouldn't* somebody listen to it?

>can I please send you an advance<

Completely useless question. Just send me the damn thing. Send me anything you want. Why would I tell you not to? How do I know if I'd want it until I hear it? Just don't expect me to like it, okay? (That way, if I do, and I often do, it will be a pleasant surprise for all.)

Sometimes! I like colorful pictues of obscure animals. But I also read -- well, ok, skim -- press releases (which can be handwritten on a piece of loose leaf paper, for all I care). If you compare yourself to Herman Brood and his Wild Romance, I guarantee I'll listen. (Heck, even if you opened a show for them once, I probably will. Unless I'm really busy that day.)

SNAP

Oh, we do perform on a regular basis, just not beyond the pacific northwest. Also, we all have full time jobs, and we like to write and record a lot - to the point where we don't like taking big long breaks to devote to PR. And we're already doing everything ourselves as it is - I think we'd be delusional to believe that we could take on the role of a publicist on top of everything else.

This is all great information you all are giving me, BTW. Thanks again.

LISTEN TO MY BAND IT ROXORZ

Though I do listen to a lot of what Forced Exposure sends me, I guess. But still not everything - maybe, oh, 75 percent of it or so.

>Girlie Action, Fanatic (sometimes), Tag Team, Motormouth, Hopper, Regenerate, 2:30 and Blueghost[are] all prone to the odd stinker every once in a while<

understatement of the year. but most of them do send something OK now and then. (actually, i pay very little attention to who sends what.)

xpost

Well, since you asked - Pinback, XTC, Tahiti 80, Pernice Bros, 20 Minute Loop, Dolour, Of Montreal, Kings of Convenience, and Stars are a few bands that we might sound like at times.

Also, Scott Seward OTM--hey flacks STOP SENDING ME ALL YOUR Z-LIST SHIT AND MAKE ME BEG FOR THE A-LIST STUFF YOU KNOW I WANT.

-- CharlieNo4 (starsandheroe...), August 18th, 2005.

is this in reference to Mute or 4AD?

And the DIY'ers hardly ever hit me with e-mail.

On the other hand, I get an ocean of e-mail from pro-PR people every week, far far far in excess of the actual CDs they promote, which they quite frequently decline to send.

And they seem to work under the impression that I like getting promo e-mail and that I will be hypnotized into buying the CD of their client or stealing one to write about ecstatically.

i'll add rooftop to the list of good pr firms...and they never oversend and are very polite in their follow-up. and howling wuelf is just grand.

i get tired of some pr people from certain places sending several emails a day despite the fact that i've never replied to them, much less reviewed something from them.

"Dear semi-legendary UK electro/pop/industrial/goth label, why do you always send me emails about your releases when you never have enough press copies to send me one? fuck me it's annoying... "

goddammit yes!!! i can think of another label that does that too.

i never get phone calls, but a friend who plays review editor for a glossy rock mag says he does...and thats gotta be pure hell.

chuck and others: what do you guys do with the 8x10 glossy shots that a certain label always sends (hell, sometimes i get enveloes with just a one sheet and glossy photo)? i used to keep them thinking i'd find something fun to do..but never did.

x-post

I mean, I don't really care (not having the onesheet and bio is probably a boon for me, given my reviewing style), but jeez.

The big advantage for using a PR firm seems to be that they will send stuff not just directly to pubs, where it can go into a slush pile, but directly to writers, who will know give it a chance and maybe pitch it to a few places. Also, they don't (presumably) get tired and watch Gilmore Girls DVDs instead.

I'm not a music journalist, but I can tell you this: SPEND THAT PR MONEY ON GOOD MASTERING! It will make a great deal of difference in how GOOD your record sounds and, at the end of the day, that's the important thing. 20 years from now, I'd rather be proud of the CD rather than have gotten one more mini-review in a zine....so you might as well have made it as good as it could have been....mastering is a big deal....from the responses from the critics on this thread, i'm not seeing a real good case for getting the PR firm....

mine always bent up and mostly useless for print purposes...so i just think theyre funny. im sure your mailbox is much bigger.

i used eintruzende photos as postcards for a while...

Howard's done prety well with Devendra though.

I think he's still building up a stable of acts and will grow to get more attention.

My point was that he's a pleasure to deal with.

why bother hiring a publicist? im being honest here.

since the internet provides anyone with easy access to downloading music, touring has become an essential part of the puzzle. i know many bands that tour endlessly and arent on labels but thats the way they manage to sell tons of their records. IF you are interested in having a label pick you guys up, there's very few of them that will take a chance on your if you dont tour.

yr talk of purging stuff reminds me that a while ago Daphne Carr suggested playing some game where we'd do reviews only from the one-sheet.

then we wondered how often that already happens

Yeah, Maria we've learned this the hard way. A lable almost picked us up, but lost interest when we explained we couldn't tour nationally. In a perfect world, we would tour, but life sort of gets in the way sometimes. And our goal really isn't selling a ton of records (which would be nice!) but really just to be heard and hopefully enjoyed.

yeah sub pop do it right...

and i stoped sending the sheets out with assigned stuff to try and inspire some more firey prose (dunno if its working)

WHY cant you tour? i refuse to believe the "life gets in the way" excuse, having heard it from other bands so many times.

p.s. Fanatic is GREAT.

-- scott seward (skotro...), August 18th, 2005.

Seriously. Wtf is that about??

Xhuxk, I have to say, I've gotten a decent amount of stuff from bands who say "Xhuxk Eddy at the Voice thinks you might like my band" and FWIW, it does help to get me to put it towards the top of the pile.

I can’t imagine anyone taking the time to track down a self-released CD because they read a review in some zine, in this day and age.

. . . says the guy from Pitchfork

That's ridiculous. Maria, I'm sure the reason you've heard it from so many bands is that many band members have jobs, kids, lives (as Darin says above.) I'm sure lots of band members are lucky enough even to have time for gigs in their hometown, much less across the country.

jeez...5,000 in Seattle? wow...i spose there's about that many in the twin cities though...everybody's in a band....

But, yeah, publicists play an enormous role in what I do or do not listen to - only in the sense that if they send me something there's a greater chance that I'll listen to it than if they don't. And if they don't and I'm still interested, then I'll either just buy it myself or download it. And if I download something I really love, then I'll contact the publicist for a proper copy.

Biggest lame publicist practice: claiming it's too early to send out advances on certain titles when said title is already circulating online. I mean, sure, don't bother, then. I'll just turn elsewhere.

x-post Jess, are you from/in West Chester, PA?

Well, you remember that even if you miss one or two good ones, 99 percent of them are probably terrible. And chances are, *something* attracted you to good ones. And then, as Matos says, you sort through the next day's mail.

>why do (some) pub companies persist in sending 8 x 11 envelopes containing only one-sheets on records you've already received? or even in regular envelopes? is spamming my inbox not having the desired effect or fucking WHAT? <

This doesn't bother me - I've got both a regular grey wastebasket *and* a blue recycling wastebasket in my office. But yeah, it's kind of astounding how much mailing $ PR companies waste for no reason. (I don't really mind if they send me four copies of the same CD, either; I just don't understand *why*. Though yeah, if it's good, there's a good chance I'll hand the extras off to other writers who might like it.)

> I've gotten a decent amount of stuff from bands who say "Xhuxk Eddy at the Voice thinks you might like my band" and FWIW, it does help to get me to put it towards the top of the pile<

Yeah, I send out writers's addresses pretty often to decent bands, too. Who else is going to? Seems it might help writers and bands both.

i dunno...as far as sales go, i think touring and playing live is still the main way to really move CDs.

Plus, it's def. possible to be a great band without playing live much...like say Steely Dan, or XTC, or post-live Beatles, but I think for most band, playing live is more necessary just because it MAKES you better....you start to toughen up a bit....you start to sense which songs connect with people and which ones don't....you start to cut out parts of songs that may be too long or tedious because you see people becoming disinterested or going to the bathroom...you play with better bands that teach you that you're really just not that fucking good just cuz you wrote a couple of tunes that you and your bandmates like....it's more the learning process than anything....

That's ridiculous. Maria, I'm sure the reason you've heard it from so many bands is that many band members have jobs, kids, lives (as Darin says above.) I'm sure lots of band members are lucky enough even to have time for gigs in their hometown, much less across the country.

who doesnt have some obligation or another? im just saying that the excuse is sometimes just that. its a matter of wanting to get their ass in gear. anyway, i wasnt talking full-time touring. a week is not that hard to do.

i just dont see the point of forking over the money for a publicist for a sake of a couple of visible reviews if you arent going to do anything else to help promote your record.

But more to the point, as said above several times, is that good reviews rarely result in more record sales. I'd say good reviews may result in more people going to see the show, and if they like that a lot you could have a fan for life.

no said anything about quitting jobs here, pal. i have friends in a band -- three of them live in the general area of DC, where they all hold down pretty busy day jobs and are married. the fourth lives in miami and is an assistant DA there. somehow they manage to schedule their vacation time in a way that allows them to do small tours.

But again, how do you know if you'll like it before you hear it? And the idea of 1000s of bands telling me how they think they sound over the phone or via email makes my head hurt. But to each one's own...

And Maria, I honestly think you're out of touch with the financial state of the union. How about this: singer songwriters have no excuse not to tour, since there's only one of them (though then again, why anybody would want them to tour is another question.) But to think it's a foregone conclusion that four people in every band can get a week off from work at the exact same time is to deny reality, I think.

yes, as someone who book shows, im clearly out of touch with how touring works!

one week out of every year is not hard. sayin'. end of discussion.

I don't disagree with this, though. But then again, as I said above, I kinda think publicists might be a waste of money in the first place. "Not touring," though, is neither the same as "not playing live" nor "not doing anything else to help promote your record." Even if bands can't go on the road, there's plenty of stuff they *can* do.

hey, you have a kid, I have play in co-ed volleyball league! we all have responsibilities!

jk maria, yr right that a week is somewhat doable for most people....

i just dont see the point of forking over the money for a publicist for a sake of a couple of visible reviews if you arent going to do anything else to help promote your record.

that's pretty much otm

ha i got an email saying that today..but i doubt you gave 'em my name Xhuxk.

i try and review as much self-released stuff as i can, but its part of our m o...i dont know if it helps or not. but i've recived emails grossly thanking me, which is atleast a nice touch on the back(cause lord know we're not in this for the money). if an artist bothers to write me and tell me something or send an mp3 before sending, i try to give it a fair listen.

but the piles do pile quite easily...and cranking out 3 reviews in an afternoon can make you think you did something about it.

dammit..people have to let e not do my job so i can write a post in less than 3 minutes

(i just heard it is both francis bean cobain and richard james birthday today....and some dude from incubus)

i also hate it when publicists send me multiple followups or hound me about coverage. i know thats their job and all but... geez. some of them really overdo it.

What is the ave. cost a small indie act would pay for one of those PR firms?

********************************************************************

I don't know.

****************************

I've said it on other threads: The whole idea of a "followup call" is absolute bullshit. It wastes my time, and probably the publicist's time, and in no way does it increase the chances of coverage -- if anything, excactly the opposite. If you want to know whether something is being reviewed, read the paper or go to the website. If it's being reviewed, it will eventually show up there, I promise.

This thread has me thinking we'll most likely just stick to our usual DIY approach and bit more thoughtful about who we'll send promos to.

agreed. if i review something, ill email publicists / bands post facto to let them know.

and if they're clever and doing their job properly, they'll have a record of your thoughts on the record so they know whether or not to bother you when the band's touring or releases something else.

i know...but sometimes it's so hard...if you send something and then they don't say anything you start thinking "oh maybe it got lost in the mail, should i send another?"

that's definintely on the cheap end, from what i understand

why would you expect them to "say" anything when they get 50 CDs in the mail every day? if you sent it, you should assume they got it, period. "did you get the CD i sent?" is one of the most annoying questions on earth, believe me, especially when several people ask you the same thing every day, and your answer for every one of them is "i don't know, doesn't ring a bell, i get hundreds of CDs every week, but if you sent it, i probably got it. if you want, you can send another one, just in case. just don't follow up next time, okay?"

I didn't say it was a rational urge Chuck. I'm sure it's annoying. But you know, you send out a record that you put alot of time into, that's your litte baby and it's hard not to want to follow up on it. It's like how you might keep calling the girl that doesn't call you back in high school, even though you know it's just making things worse, dig?

Also, I think the whole touring thing looks a lot easier when you're in the thick of it than when you're trying to figure out how it works and schedule vacations and then your drummer goes into the hospital and oops. But anyway.

Maria - you may change your mind after you graduate.

I like the guys in my band like family, but if I've got a week or two off I'll be damned if I'm going to spend it in a smelly van with them.

I much prefer some sunny locale with my wife & kid.

There's always a pure glee of "I told ya so" for indie bands who've been bossed around and given the bum's rush by their local peers when they score a review in such a manner. It doesn't have to be tied to a specific goal of -MUST GET BAND, arghh, puff, puff, to sell and tour and pretend to look pro!"

Ah, the desperation that sets in after 3 years in a band.

When we HAVE gotten press, what usually worked was just being nice and communicating directly with the writer.

this could be accomplished by touring.

A publicist can only advance certain components of your exposure and thus, the impact on your career should be evaluated along those lines. If all you're doing is trying to validate your efforts in the studio, there might be better ways of spending your money.

Just don't hire that heathcliff guy

blecch, this guy seems like a real piece of work

don't worry, he'll be hired somewhere else soon enough

http://www.thefader.com/2016/01/19/life-or-death-pr-founder-sexual-harassment
he owns the company. this looks like a PR move to figure what to do next unless he's selling the company.

don't worry, he'll be hired somewhere else soon enough

― a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Tuesday, January 19, 2016 5:34 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://twitter.com/motormouthmedia

^^^lots of info about this from here via retweets

The definition of horseshit, right here:

http://www.laweekly.com/music/music-publicist-heathcliff-berru-issues-statement-regarding-sexual-harassment-allegations-6500546

Good responses so far:

http://www.imposemagazine.com/bytes/chatter/heathcliff-berru-and-other-missing-stairs

http://www.bkmag.com/2016/01/20/heathcliff-berrus-bullshit-apology-is-not-enough-to-address-the-industry-wide-issue-of-sexual-assault/

good lord, that new brooklyn mag story. what a piece of work this guy is.

more details:

http://jezebel.com/how-women-on-twitter-brought-down-a-music-publicist-acc-1753964374

furthermore
http://www.thefader.com/2016/01/20/life-or-death-publicists-announce-mass-exodus-and-start-of-new-venture

linked within that article
http://theindustryaintsafe.tumblr.com/

A new article on Berru's victims, associates, the larger process of reporting and speaking out, and an interview with Berru himself.

http://www.bkmag.com/2016/02/26/aftermath-and-recovery-heathcliff-berru-speaks-and-reporting-on-sexual-assault-in-the-music-industry/

ugh how about we just put an end to the music industry

I have a question for the music writers in the room.

Generally speaking, I work like this:
- get thousands of emails from publicists
- listen to stuff, like something, pitch an idea to a publication
- reach out to publicist if an interview is needed or to request lyrics/credits, etc.
- try to remember to send 'em a link when it publishes

In many years of doing this, I have almost never discussed potential publications/outlets and/or where to pitch with publicists BEFORE pitching. I don't necessarily feel anti that, it just has never crossed my mind.

Do other writers have these kinds of conversations with publicists? Or do you do it like I've always done it?

I mostly do as you describe in the first half of your email. There have been a half dozen or so occasions when a publicist has said to me, "We're talking to [PUBLICATION] about a feature on [BAND/ARTIST]" and I have said "Oh, cool, I like [BAND/ARTIST] — if [PUBLICATION] expresses real interest, feel free to suggest that they give me the assignment." But it's always been a publication I'm already contributing to on a semi-regular basis, and it's never actually come to fruition that I can remember.

first half of your *post*

ok ... i suddenly wondered if other people might be doing something like this on the regular:

"wow, this is great. i'll pitch to X and maybe Y or Z if X doesn't work out"
"thanks! just FYI, we already have something confirmed at X, but Z would be great. Z would actually be better than Y for Artist because blah blah blah"
"oh, OK, well i'll pitch Z then"

NOTE: i can see how knowing about confirmed coverage at X would be helpful. i'm talking more about the general back-and-forth.

thanks unperson, the situation you describe has never actually come to fruition for me, either, and i've tried it a couple times.

as a publicist, i can say I'd love to have that conversation with a writer. Or frankly ANY conversation with a writer! Even with people I know personally, everyone's too flooded/busy/distracted/unengaged for me to talk more about individual shows. More often, I send stuff out, then there's coverage. Nobody has the time!

Totally hear/understand that. Someone said on Twitter not long ago they're rather hear a "pass" than nothing.

I am definitely guilty of remaining totally silent about shit I don't care about. But this week I did give a publicist a definitive "No," in the process of saying "Yes" to something else:

I have no place to review a solo bass record, and really no interest in listening to one if I'm not being paid to do so.

xp, i would love to get straight up no's. For the record, my clients get frustrated when I say no one's biting and they ask who's told me no and i have to say "no one!" But then pieces do get published and press happens among some of the people that I've been pollinating. I get the sense that we're being effective but it's increasingly hard to get anyone to communicate. The reasons are obvious, everybody in media having to do three jobs being the biggest one. The lead jazz writer at NYT also writes politics for them for crissakes; that's a new way for them to do business!