Did Rap, Hip-Hop, Grunge & Industrial Destroy The Art Of Songwriting ?

Not tonight, Internet.

Also, I find it weird that the original poster put up the question as if the destruction of songwriting (and the parallel End of the Dictatorship of Melody and Harmony in Western music) was a bad thing... How weird.

Maybe white people just need to come up with something else.

the decline of melody

What I think is inarguable is that there's been a movement toward self-sufficient "units" (riff, beat, etc) that comprise a song but could be reshuffled/replaced at will. The mistake is to blame hip-hop or electronica; this has been going on ever since the Western world has decided that it likes 99% of its pop in 4/4. It's not catastrophic, either; it just, uh, is.

That's why no one can write a song with staying power
anymore.

And I guess it isn't that odd that artists are bored with the predictable rigid form of rock songwriting (aka intro-verse-bridge-chorus/etc) start developing other structural templates.

It's also strange to accuse grunge as "destroying songwriting", as it was 100% good oldfashioned blues-based rock with some extra fuzz.

These kind of thread are bullshit. the "Art of Songwriting" you're talking about is only one certain type of songwriting. there's millions of ways to make songs and they are all cool, except the bad songs.

just start a thread that's called, "Man, I really like Squeeze alot! Why aren't there more musical acts like them around nowadays?"

But folks, without musicianship, there is no *songwriting longevity*.

And without songwriting longevity (will the song be unique, effective
and widely appreciated decades from now), there is no long-lasting
impact.

E D9 Bm
Alicia keys and Green day try, but they're oh so derivative....
E
it makes me cry. (to a shimmering melody, and a syncopated
beat)

The 90's brought it in, 'songwriting' without musicianship
and staying power.To get things back on track, artists will
have to form a unique, innovative lyrical concept, and mould
it into a unique, innovative entity of melody, harmony
and rhythm - BASED on musicianship.Unless of course they want their songs to be utterly unremembered, churning out plastic crap
to be disposed of after the energizing effect occurs.

It's not all about image, energy, hype, attitude and shock,
it's about MUSIC.Fucking preppy shallow plastic
packaged over-produced gimmick-dependant corporate posers...
out with yesterday's bathwater, NEVER to be remembered
or valued beyond short-term monetary-$$$-aquisition.

Your selective capitalization is rather Marchant-esque.

E D9 Bm

What is this? The chords to the Perfect Song?

songwriting needs cialis prescription STAT!

My idea of a quality song is much different
than others, but the objective should be the same...
staying power and longevity.
Musicianship 1st, then some progressive imagination.
The problem is the strictly short-term profiteering
record execs saying 'it's not representative
of today's scene', when if they took more
of my approach, their records would sell
more in a long-term manner, rather than
a gushing oil well of crap that dries up
in 2-3 months.

Record sales suffer when musicianship
and imagination exits the scene.

The (Am) pharmaslutization of art is (F7) bad for
songwriting matt.... didn't you know that (Am) ?

???

Does this have something to do with perscription drugs or what? I can't figure it out from context and it ain't in my OED.

(one foot in the book, and a hand in the sky,
you take a twisted look, and don't ask what or why)

progressive or
uncommon chord patterns in various rock
genres open the door to unique, distinctive melodies.

E to Bm through D, *AND* you let the E note hang over the D - stop, James, you're blowing my mind!

Igglefwop mooguf chumpleb yagvurt.

It's right-brained term-creation, free yourself from
the pedagogy.

Dumbass.

Record sales suffer when musicianship
and imagination exits the scene.

-- James R. (jr7...), August 21st, 2005.

Hi Marissa!

And are you honestly trying to tell me that it has only been since grunce/industrial/hip hop that artists have actively tried to make money? Except for when the Beatles played Ed Sullivan/sold out.

If you are to use a guitar, you must cut down a maple tree and carve it yourself. You must mine all the metal you are using in its construction. You can pick up an amp from craigslist if you like.

A good song is distinct, and uses musicianship
and imagination to craft the 4 elements (lyrics,
melody, harmony, rhythm), giving it
longevity.

No need to paint isolationist extremes to refute
my point, it's not *my* point at all.It's
objective reality - independant of your
desire to disrespect it.

Goodbye Yellow Brick Road is a good song.

The crappy showy sounds generated by rap,
hip-hop, grunge, industrial
and dance/techno is not good.

Simple.

I Am The Walrus is a good song.

The untalented 'wannabe cool and accepted'
pea-brains like Nelly and The Chemical
Brothers produce garbage.Stenchy, lame,
untalented garbage, embraced by collectivists
because they feel the media and peer-pressure and
consume the garbage those morons create.

The interesting thing about James's list of grievances is the bizarre insistence on including "grunge" in them. If "I Am The Walrus" had bass-driven verses and fuzzed-out choruses (which it pretty much does, come to think of it), it would be a grunge song. Would it cease to be a good song?

James, do you write music? I think I am speaking for the entire thread when I say we'd love to hear it.

And every year, I discover a fresh crop of new music that I really love.

(Btw, Imo, I Am The Walrus is eclectic psychedelia, some
similarities to grunge, many non-parallels, but it has
*staying power*.It matches the 4-element criteria, has a
very unique harmonic pattern and a unique melody.It's
like Brahms on Mushrooms.John & Paul never had to
resort to screaming a 3-note chorus based exclusively
on F-Bb-Ab-Db like Cobain did in Smells Like Teen Spirit.While
Curt had some creative talent, the Grunge vehicle rendered anything
in that genre post-Nirvana as utterly forgettable, to fans
AND non-fans).

But plastic takes forever to biodegrade! Your metaphors need work.

It does seem to me that it's better to actually try and debate about it than just give snappy one liners -- even if that's all it deserves.

I'm gonna sample an old lady sayin' this and use it over a Eurohouse track and make me a million dollars, that's what I'm gonna do

Co-dependency takes many forms.

I'm actually comin' round on the pro-grunge argument, I d-tuned
the 6-string and played 'All Apologies' from my garage band
cover days.So I'm sorry, ok ?? (gosh, so sensitive) heh heh.

And there is a dance/techno hip-hop robot signing up
for keyboard lessons as we speak ! Learning the F# Lydian
scale is tuff, ruff, fancy crazy stuff.. beep beep !

That techno-bot can actually play ! He can FLYYYY !

:->

Then he can play Devo's "Too Much Paranoias" and be inspired
to write an innovative Top-40 hit !

But seriously James, claiming that there's a downfall of music based on what you're claiming is a current trend across the board to emulate the music of the youth (because admit it, wholesale acceptance of a lot of the top 40 exists at a much younger age than the average of the population) is disingenuous at best. Look at it this way: The Beatles, with age, started picking up disparate influences and claiming them as their own. They started off with minimal instrumentation and simple melodies/lyrics. Later they built their music into something more by plundering even more influences and adding to the mix.

What does this have to do with anything? Well, you're advocating an adherence to the "gold standard" of music which is the "mature" sound many artists eventually fall into. Like you said, Green Day, Alicia Keys, whatever mainstream figures you want to mention, fall into the gentrified, historical camp you're entrenched in. The difference is, you want that to be a starting point while it's currently the end of the road, success-wise. Musicians start out with their own sound or by attempting to imitate what they find interesting and then eventually grow into their own through learning.

ILX is, by and large, based in the popular music camp. That means anyone who has classical songwriting training that creates complex harmonies/melodies is going to go over our heads unless they create a certain type of buzz. How do they get that? By doing something new and/or different that's catchy enough. And I just haven't seen it in a damn long time. So, please let me know what musicians are coming up with completely new ways of writing complex melodies and harmonies from scratch, because ripping off The Beatles isn't going to work. You have to grow into it for the music to really gel, and as you've said, new artists just aren't doing it for you. So why not start blaming established artists for falling into the trap of imitating the youth?

Just though I'd re-post this paragraph. No reason.

2) Then, write songs.The more *effort* and imagination you
put into developing the 4 elements (lyrics, melody, harmony, rhythm),
the more staying power (longevity) your song will have.

If you want immediate short-term impressiveness, disposability
and 2-dimensional success, then don't do the above.

It's not about absolutes (though I will use them to
uncover strong opposing opinions), it's about *degree* of innovation
and songcrafting.Listen to green day's "I walk alone"
or whatever it's called.They at least are TRYING to
do the above 2 steps, in the interest of song longevity.

You see, record execs are blinded by explosive
commercialism in PLACE of refining the 4 elements
based on musicianship.Shock over substance.Sign
the musically/instrumentally skilled artists who
exhibit progressivity and imagination, and they
will haul in more money for you in
the long-term.

Established artists have (since 1990) been shut out by
greedy, manipulative exec$ who lack appreciation of genuine musical
skill.

There is hope though, pick up that guitar, and put
your lyrics/melody to chords while trying NOT to
rip people off by xeroxing their songs.

I'm actually coming at this more from the middle, rather
than the over-schooled extreme you are visualizing.

Innovation & accessibility... you CAN have both, but
it has to be based on instrumental skill, musicianship
and imagination.... IF you want to have long-term
musical impact.

What hip-hop song will do this , in your opinion ?

I am speaking of specific songs (rock around the clock,
games without frontiers, cars, dog eat dog) that
might be played 10 years past the point of
creation causing people unfamiliar with the song previously, to
listen & love.

Long-term impact of specific songs.

If they would have picked an instrument, practiced it
and refined the 4 elements(lyrics, melody, harmony, rhythm)
they might actually still be functional, but I guess
short-term shock-value mattered more to those moronic
crackheads...

"Rapper's Delight" -- 1979
"Games Without Frontiers" -- 1980

Those are some artists who make a strong effort
at refining the 4 elements, based on instrumental
skill and imagination.They are the ANTI-Limp Bizkit's...
they are, genuine songwriters flirting
with top 40 acceptance.The last 2 being the
most manically creative/progressive, I have
respect for them all.

But yes, the target of my musical disdain is the
shallow image-based top-40 crap that hits it big due
to hype and collectivism, not ingeneous individualism.

Rufus, Fiona, Bjork and Radiohead, believe it or not
are constantly trying to score a hit, but what's neat is that they
are not sacrificing their musicianship, imagination
and 4-element refinement in order to
do so.If only the music-executive
controllers would see their talent, and
hype them a little more... song longevity
would be helped out significantly.

Bonk !

John & Paul never had to resort to screaming a 3-note chorus

The chorus to "I Am The Walrus" is two notes.

I mean, why bother? Just let it go, there's plenty of interesting and musically unorthodox stuff out there already to keep one going for a lifetime. Go and be disdainful about something more worthy of disdain.

Also, are "virtuosity" and "songcraft" the same thing, conflated into a term like "musicianship"?

I guess that's what no-talent rap, hip-hop, dance/techno fans have to
resort to.Ripping people off, impostering, posing as something
they are not - musicians.

Obviously i hit a nerve here, and the defensive aggression
shows what a crock those styles are.

Remember : if you don't have any musical/instrumental
proficiency, and you like those anti-music styles, you
are not only ripping musicians off, but taking musical
skill and songwriting prowess for granted.

Without the millions of hours those musicians spent
honing their skills, you would have
nothing to sample.

face it, fake music sucks, real music lives,
regardless of what media bombardment tells you.

George Benson, Wynton Marsalis, the Beatles, Echo
& the Bunnymen, are REAL musical acts, not
fake preppy posers ripping off and biting
the hand that supplies them with the goods
for their superficial pathetic theivery.

I guess that's what no-talent rap, hip-hop, dance/techno fans have to
resort to.Ripping people off, impostering, posing as something
they are not - musicians.

Obviously i hit a nerve here, and the defensive aggression
shows what a crock those styles are.

Remember : if you don't have any musical/instrumental
proficiency, and you like those anti-music styles, you
are not only ripping musicians off, but taking musical
skill and songwriting prowess for granted.

Without the millions of hours those musicians spent
honing their skills, you would have
nothing to sample.

face it, fake music sucks, real music lives,
regardless of what media bombardment tells you.

George Benson, Wynton Marsalis, the Beatles, Echo
& the Bunnymen, are REAL musical acts, not
fake preppy posers ripping off and biting
the hand that supplies them with the goods
for their superficial pathetic theivery.

you DO know that the original name of "I Love Music" was "Death to False Metal," right?

I guess that's what no-talent rap, hip-hop, dance/techno fans have to
resort to.Ripping people off, impostering, posing as something
they are not - musicians.

Obviously i hit a nerve here, and the defensive aggression
shows what a crock those styles are.

Remember : if you don't have any musical/instrumental
proficiency, and you like those anti-music styles, you
are not only ripping musicians off, but taking musical
skill and songwriting prowess for granted.

Without the millions of hours those musicians spent
honing their skills, you would have
nothing to sample.

face it, fake music sucks, real music lives,
regardless of what media bombardment tells you.

George Benson, Wynton Marsalis, the Beatles, Echo
& the Bunnymen, are REAL musical acts, not
fake preppy posers ripping off and biting
the hand that supplies them with the goods
for their superficial pathetic theivery.

I guess that's what no-talent rap, hip-hop, dance/techno fans have to
resort to.Ripping people off, impostering, posing as something
they are not - musicians.

Obviously i hit a nerve here, and the defensive aggression
shows what a crock those styles are.

Remember : if you don't have any musical/instrumental
proficiency, and you like those anti-music styles, you
are not only ripping musicians off, but taking musical
skill and songwriting prowess for granted.

Without the millions of hours those musicians spent
honing their skills, you would have
nothing to sample.

face it, fake music sucks, real music lives,
regardless of what media bombardment tells you.

George Benson, Wynton Marsalis, the Beatles, Echo
& the Bunnymen, are REAL musical acts, not
fake preppy posers ripping off and biting
the hand that supplies them with the goods
for their superficial pathetic theivery.

I don't need to. I just push the "make chart-topping techno" button on my drum machine. I learned a lot about musical proficiency at the Oberlin Conservatory of Music. Mostly that it's way overrated.

To be fair again, the lyrics on Rapper's Delight are about as well remembered as the groove, I'm betting.

Without musical proficiency, you have nothing to sample
(STEAL).

That's ok though, keep stealing and convincing yourselves that the impotent untalented theif (rap, hip-hop 'heroes') represents truth and talent, while the source of your FAKE music is viewed as the fraud and liar.

As long as you keep wrecking your bodies and brains with
synthetic hard drugs, you'll be able to sustain your push-button
delusion based on theivery and musical impotence.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that James isn't a musician of any kind. Many of the people I've met who've been the most adamant in saying "dance & hip-hop aren't real music" have never actually played a note in their lives. It's trolling disguised as an intellectual exercise.

I think they start mumbling hate-filled rants to themselves and lose their place.

It's time for you to DROP your hard-drug/fake-music
addiction, and sit down at that piano.

You see 4 flats in the key signature, it's either
Ab major or F minor.Try a riff of C, Eb, Ab,G,F
over an Fminor9 chord , then try the same riff over
an Abmajor7.

Get stoned/high on the SOFT drug, expand your
mind and fly into the realm of *genuine* musical
creativity, not the fake, fraudulent, hard-drug
scam of deception and non-dynamic THIEVERY.

You might actually help morph rap & hip-hop
into the realm of genuine music... by DEVELOPING
Lyrics, Melody, Harmony and rhythm.

It's time for you anti-music morons to
stop ingesting crack, ecstasy, crystal meth and
lethal, poisonous pharmaceuticals.It's time
for you pea-brained musically WIMPOTENT
thieves to ingest THC/CBD and learn
how to play an actual instrument
with imagination.Lyrics, Melody,
Harmony and Rhythm based on
ACTUAL (not FAKE) musical skill.

Calling the TRUTH 'crazy', is like
saying 2+2=83

IOW, you have NO basis for your defense
of hard drugs and fake music.

oh for sure

so "Rumble", "Miserlou," and "Pathetique" are right out?

but the truth will win, it's no surprise.

Attack the messenger, when you can't win,

stealing riffs is a sonic sin...

everything's been heard before.

1) You must pick an instrument

2) You must develop the 4 elements

-Melody
-Harmony
-Rhythm
-Lyrics

If you think music is better served by eliminating
2 of the elements, stealing (xeroxing) musicians
songs and POSING as musicians, then
you won't do the above 2 steps.

An axiomatic principle (wake up cotten) cannot be
refuted, it simply is.Common-sense can't be denied, it
just is.THERE IS *NO* counter-argument
to musical truth, but if you are a non-musician,
you'll delude yourself into trying to
smash the 4-dimensional elemental truth of musicianship.

Good luck, ignorant fools.Better pop some
more pharmaceuticals and sample
the 'Under Pressure' riff one more time.

Maybe you morons should just donate to the Vanilla Ice
retirement fund.Fucking twits.