the idea that hip hop isnt a genre for albums - C or D?

ghostface hasnt made a really great album since supreme clientele. everything since then has been good but bitty.

id like to discuss the truism that soul and R&B were singles oriented genres, since people like to state those things so regularly. im not sure how true they really are/were.

id say that today R&B and hip hop are neck and neck and have been for about a decade in terms of being more singles then album oriented.

this goes for current hip hop and current r&b, both of which probably produce as many great albums on average as other genres.

also, anybody who liked Supreme Clientele but doesn't think Pretty Toney is at the very least a GOOD album is a krazyperson

Also there aren't many hip-hop artists who consistently produce great LPs.

This coming from an avowed album-hater. I think no less of the genre for it.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0009MWAPW.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

of COURSE they did

If you consider the tracks that were CRUELLY DISALLOWED from BP wallets, its probably my favorite Ghost album. Ironman is clearly his worst.

And obviously everyone is wrong, hip-hop has tons of great albums.

if i have to skip stuff, then it ain't a good album.

i would say that across the board albums are just too long usually. cuzza the whole cd thing. 30 minutes or less is usually fine. we have been through all of this of course. albums longer than 50 minutes that i consider favorites in recent years are few and far between. mostly metal or droney shit that is supposed to go on forever. more than 20 songs on an album is just...a lot of songs. i guess i am still old-fashioned enough to think you should be able to listen to an entire album without getting restless. that's how they become favorites. you play them over and over again.

Like rock, maybe? OK, cool!

No, I think that would be racist and sexist.

Yet another reason that The Wu are one of the most important and great hip hop crews in history.

Blueprint
Stankonia
Cold Vein
Labor Days
Supreme Clientele
Original Pirate Material
Vaudeville Villain
Take Me To Your Leader
Under Construction
Miss E... So Addictive
Black Album
Boy in da Corner
Madvillainy
A Grand Don't Come For Free
Pretty Toney

HA Ha and HA.

missy elliot doesnt make good albums, by the way.

i could name a hundred.

ok now you are smoking the loco weed

Scott I challenge you to name those hundred!

yeah,ok. fucking WHERE?!

"how many of you EVER got to Side 2 of the Das EFX album? Anybody remember anything past the first four songs on Special Ed's first album?"

i do. it was pretty good. it wasnt a case of 3 'hot' singles and filler, it might not have all been on the level of straight from the sewer, but it wasnt all completely skippable, it at least had replay value. i.e. a consistent album.

"there really weren't a whole lot of popular hip hop groups making 'classic album' material until The Chronic dropped."

how about
run dmc
NWA
eric b and rakim
epmd
redman
del the funky homosapien
masta ace
etc etc etc etc

what missy albums are good? seriously? she makes great singles and videos, albums though? nah.

Yeah, this is baloney.

Oddly, it just occurred to me that I am considering putting Young Jeezy's album in my top ten this year even though (1) I have yet to play it all the way through and (2) May never actually do so. I listen to it (like I listen to lots of CDs these days) on random play in my home 5-CD changer, and it could make my top ten on the basis of (1) me loving tons of individual cuts on it and also (2) me not particularly hating any particular cuts on it. I'm not as extreme as Frank Kogan, who actually *programs* his CDs (I've never done that), and therefore says "in the CD era, all albums are EPs" and has no qualms with putting a David Banner (or Celine Dion for that matter) album in his top ten merely on the basis of loving three or four songs on them. To me, the last (as in second non-screwed) Banner album had too much crap balancing out its couple great tracks to even hint at top-ten consideration. (I did put the screwed and chopped version of his debut in my top ten, though, and the regular version of his debut came close.) This year, Mannie Fresh and Fannypack also have a shot, and I tend to play those more in my CD changer too. But I'm still not ready to disagree with Scott - hip-hop CDs (like many other CDs) (hell, MORE than CDs in lots of other genres, as far as I can see, if that''s generalizing, so what?) *do* often tend to be way too long these days, and are hence often impossible to play all the way through. Which was part of the point of my prog comparison above. (And yes, prog and disco do still exist.) So most of my all-time favorite rap albums, I still own on vinyl.

All Missy albums are good. None of them are great (at least to my ears.) She does indeed make great singles, though. Her greatest album will be her first greatest-hits album.

i listen to hip-hop almost entirely in the album format, and i have never found it a problem, so dud to the title question. although i do watch mtv base quite a bit.

the extra length of the average hip-hop album means that it will probably include a greater *number* of superfluous tracks than something from a genre where albums are shorter, but not necessarily a greater *percentage*. plus the added length means that missteps are more easily forgiven.

also, i am not convinced that some hip-hop albums widely-touted as filler-fests are indeed just that. like the last lil wayne album, which i play pretty much from start to finish.

I loved maybe three cuts on that first Missy E. album though.

"Scott I challenge you to name those hundred!"

shit, i knew someone would call me out. um, off the top of my head, people who made classic albums before the chronic: big daddy kane, mc lyte, queen latifah, monie love, cookie crew, wee papa girl rappers, steady b, jungle brothers, tribe called quest, poor rightous teachers, special ed, run-dmc, ultramagnetic mcs, stetsasonic, slick rick, n.w.a., biz markie, d.o.c., above the law, nice & smooth, spoonie g, mc shan, main source, sir mixalot, gang starr, schoolly d, naughty by nature, chubb rock, newcleus, jonzun crew, kool g rap & dj polo, 3rd bass, sugarhill gang, salt & pepe, beastie boys, ll cool j, ice t, de la soul, doug e. fresh, whodini, tone loc, young mc, kool moe dee, 7a3, digital underground, mantronix, kid frost, kurtis blow, kmd, k-solo, 2 live crew, maggotron, divine styler, fat boys, geto boys, marley marl, mellow man ace, cash money & marvelous, too short, jazzy jeff & the fresh prince, grandmaster flash & the furious five, ice cube, eazy-e, cypress hill, tuff crew...shit, how many is that? that ain't a hundred, but i kinda got to go. someone finish that list of great album-makers pleeze.

what, you've never heard of the short-lived salt & pepe? great mexicali groove.

Totally seconded -- the throwaway tracks on "Tha Carter" were still great. Mannie Fresh is so far beyond most Southern producers.

I don't think that there is any difference between hip-hop album quality and any other pop genre's album quality. Usually, to consumers, albums are distribution systems for singles, and that goes everywhere except maybe jazz these days. I happen to like, say, Francis the Mute and The Mind of Mannie Fresh, but that does not mean that I like them BETTER for being album-ish albums (themed, linked, conceptual, conscious of being "albums") than other CDs that are singles plus filler. I used to, but not really any more. It depends on the filler, doesn't it?

I think that hip-hop audiences have a different relationship with "album" CDs than other pop audiences (OR ROCK CRITICS), and that artists recognize that, and try to give the people what they want. If you don't like skits, then go ahead, that's fine. If hip-hop audiences start hating them, you'll know it, because the market will change instantly. Rap has a HELLA FAST feedback system.

big daddy kane

ha ha ha which one? BDK was the epitome of a 'singles' MC. I challenge you to name THREE songs off of Prince of Darkness!!

mc lyte

no comment. Except to say "C'mon, dude." Lyte is and will always be a footnote. I had Ain't No Other and it was weak.

queen latifah monie love, cookie crew, wee papa girl rappers

See MC Lyte

jungle brothers

Again, which? Done By The Forces...I admit had a very favorable ratio of good to bad, but J Beez wiuth the Remedy, although to my ears now would probbaly be the superior album, back then, it was just too fucking WEIRD to be classic! No one I knew ever liked that one...

tribe called quest, poor rightous teachers

agreed on tribe, at least the first three albums. Score one for Brother Scott. But PRT is almost another perfect example of what I'm talking about. Of the first two albums, all you have is "Rock Dis Funky Joint" on the first, and "Easy Star" and "Shakiyla" on the second.

special ed, run-dmc

no way. albums LOADED with filler. "The Bush???" "Son of Byford??"

ultramagnetic mcs

Score two for Scott - both Critical Beatdown and The Four Horsemen are pretty close to perfect. That one in the middle, though, not so much...

stetsasonic

I love you Scott, but BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA! The "hip hop band?" Weak. Even Daddy-O's solo album was an embarrassment.

slick rick

Both albums were filler-fests.

n.w.a.

I agree with you if we're talkin' Niggaz4life. But Compton is, like, 75% weak shit. How often do you listen to "Somethin 2 Dance 2?"

biz markie

if you're talking "Goin' Off," I agree. After that?

d.o.c.

Man, even the single ("The Formula," if I remember correctly) was weak on this one. Really, dude?

above the law

no way

nice & smooth

ugh!

spoonie g, mc shan

You're showing your age dude! Hahahahaa. I have albums by those cats but can barely recall them. The last Shan thing I bought was his 'comeback' maxi single, something about goin "wild in the penile" or some bullshit.

main source

OK, both albums pretty classic. Agreed.

sir mixalot

No comment.

gang starr

Gang Starr is another example of what I'm talking about. Though I will say that most Gang Starr albums from Step in the Arena on have considerably more classic material than filler, they bog down the albums with anything involving The Group Home, any 'skits" ("Aight Chill????") and painfully mediocre tracks like "Mostly Tha Voice"

schoolly d

No way

naughty by nature

Nineteen Naughty Three was pretty good all the way through. But that first one was filler city. Still, classic always and forever for "Uptown Anthem"

chubb rock

"Lost in the Storm" was his only good song, to my ears.

newcleus, jonzun crew

I don't know who these people are, and I'm rarely stumped when it comes to hip hop.

kool g rap & dj polo

No way. Total singles group. Even IF "Ill Street Blues" is one of hip hop's best singles ever.

3rd bass

two good albums, neither great. Why? FILLER!!! You think Derelicts of Dialect is a 'classic' album?? Come on..."Eye Jammy?"

sugarhill gang

which album are you referring to?

salt & pepe

No comment. Spinderella was always kinda hot though.

beastie boys

I'm going to spend the rest of the day trying to forget you said that Scott. It's a slap in the face to the entire genre to even include them in this list.

ll cool j

Singles. I dare you to sit through the entirety of "Walking With THe Panther." YOU CAN NOT DO IT.

ice t

Agreed. For all of Tracy Morrow's Hollywood aspirations, folks forget he put out some solid albums. Power and OG in particular still sound great.

de la soul

Pretty classic. Lotsa filler though. Only the first two albums even come close to classic. Buhloone Mind State on, it gets very weird.

doug e. fresh

No way!

whodini

No way!

tone loc, young mc, kool moe dee

No comment.

7a3

I don't know who this is

digital underground

Sex Packets was pretty classic all the way through. Wonder if it holds up now?

mantronix, kid frost, kurtis blow, kmd

No comment but I wouldn't consider Mantronix part of the rest

k-solo

Good MC, WEAK albums. Even the singles were lame. "Letterman????" Christ. His best work was on cameos. See EPMD's "Headbanger"

2 live crew

Come on, man.

maggotron, divine styler, fat boys

Damn Scott you old school. Divine Styler?? Haven't heard that name in years, not since I used to run home to tape Video Music Box. Hahhahahah! Anyway I've never heard any full albums by any of those people

geto boys

First sides always good, I never get to the second sides of any Geto Boys album.

marley marl, mellow man ace, cash money & marvelous

Don't remember enough to say, which speaks for itself

too short

THIS one I agree with, even though all my East Coast hip hop friends would see me hanged to admit it. I still got love for $hort Dog!!

jazzy jeff & the fresh prince

He's The DJ...is probably another perfcet example of what I'm talking about. I mean, that album is like 90% filler, dude. And everything AFTER that is even worse.

grandmaster flash & the furious five

Singles group.

ice cube

I agree, for Death Certificate. But lotsa filler on the other albums. Probably lots on Death Certificate too but I'm remembering through rose-tinted glasses.

eazy-e

Classic "Side 1 MC"

cypress hill

Actually agree if we're talking the s/t album. I remember listening to that one non-stop when it came out.

OK, so I agree with maybe three of those.

But I can't believe you'd hate on the Beastie Boys so much. The first two albums are both classic hip-hop records any way you slice it.

OK, both albums pretty classic. Agreed."

Wait wait wait you like the album they released AFTER the Large Professor left?!? I've never heard anyone say that.

I have NO LOVE for the Beastie Boys. Search the archives if you want, we've been through this before. They're right below Dave Matthews on my assasination list, actually. Worst...group...ever?

>spoonie g, mc shan...You're showing your age dude! Hahahahaa. I have albums by those cats but can barely recall them. The last Shan thing I bought was his 'comeback' maxi single, something about goin "wild in the penile" or some bullshit. <

I totally love this logic: Those acts were from a long time ago, therefore, you can't properly use them as examples of acts who made great albums a long time ago.

I also love the unarguable logic of "How can you possibly name a Run-DMC album that has a song I don't like on it?" Foolproof!

T.I. - Urban Legend
Trick Daddy - Thug Matrimony
B.G. - Life After Cash Money
Devin the Dude - To the X-Treme
Lil Wayne - The Carter
8ball and MJG - Living Legends
Suga Free - The Testament
Madvillain - Madvilliany
Ghostface - Pretty Toney
Federation - The Album
Petey Pablo - Still Writing in my Diary
Trillville/Lil Scrappy - BME presents...
Cam'ron - Purple Haze

You also make this remark: "also love the unarguable logic of "How can you possibly name a Run-DMC album that has a song I don't like on it?" Foolproof!" - Not at all. What I was ininuating was that, "Son of Byford," among others, is a track off Raising Hell that I don't think ANYONE would say is their favorite. Whether I like it or not has nothing to do with it. But it IS filler, dude.

And Shakey says "EVERYBODY acknowledges the impact of License to Ill" - well, not me. And not any of the people I grew up listening to hip hop with, here, in New York City. Then again, I didn't really run with too many corny whiteboy backpacker skater types. Whatever. My point is that just because Ego Trip or Rick Rubin says it's a great hip-hop album, that doesn't make it so. The people I know who like The Beastie Boys don't own Ghostface albums - they own Pink Floyd albums. Me? I'd rather listen to Rappin' Duke.

haha - You must be the REALEST NIGGA ON THIS THREAD then, right? what fucking ever.

ps. I do not own a backpack.

chubb rock

"Lost in the Storm" was his only good song, to my ears.

WtF "Caught Up" dude.

Adventures of Slick Rick is full of filler? You're out of your mind.

I have two words for you all, though: Wu Revolution. It's hard to dispute. That isn't hometown pride, it's just the way it is.

-- deej.. (el...), August 23rd, 2005.

That Federation album deej mentioned is really great by the way.

So songs are only worthwhile if they're somebody's favorite song? Again, why? Just because "Four Sticks" isn't anybody's favorite track on Zoso doesn't mean I don't love listening to it sometimes.

on that CD, mike jones himself is the filler

i dont like filler that is just chucked in there to FILL up space

but if it does the former, its not filler anymore is it?

roger is so wrong about doc and above the law. i LOVE that above the law album. so so funky.

ghost's albums in order:
supreme clientele
iron man
bulletproof
pretty toney

honorable mention - the theodore unit album

the prob with masta ace is that he needs better beats these days. a shame though, his first two albums are absolute classics. i think hip hop people overuse the term classic though.

i think im bored of hip hop though. too much of whats coming out really just bores me. i hope it hurries up and dies. its a fat bloated corporate lazy sloth-like carcass that needs to wither away.

By the way, there are many great reggaeton artist albums!

Def Jux? Well, this is only one man's opinion, but it seems that they got very indiscriminate with releases, kind of like they were the first label EVER to have a sophmore slump of sorts, if that makes sense. I think it was a mix of El-P nobly trying to expose kids to other shit / throwing curveballs, the usual pressures of running a succesful 'hip' label and worrying (or NOT worrying) about demographics and whatnot, and him just not giving a fuck. Plus, the gradual phasing out of NASA on engineering duties was a dreadful mistake, IMHO.

Have you heard the second single?

HA - me too. i think im pretty much out of my classic rock phase now though, although it was fun. now im into all types of shit, as raekwon might say. electronic music has been my new musical hobby. everyone says oh hip hop is so inventive innovative blah blah, but i hear nothing but laziness from most rappers. they literally just SOUND like they cant be bothered. hip hop - please die and make it quick, so i can have something new to interest me.

btw, check out some baile funk, its a lot of fun.

I don't know who that was directed at, but that's just bullshit.

it's a pretty darn meaningless word, actually (a boring one, too).

I like parts of the latest Bleak album, and almost everything from the Swisha House crew, FWIW. But in genreral, do I consider myself a hip hop fan nowadays? No.

Same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.

I don't think anybody's said that, except for maybe okokokok - he'll have to defend himself. My sympathies are more with deej, who appreciates the breadth of hip-hop's history but also just seems to have more enthusiasm than I do for seeking out the good stuff.

I think it might depend on the person here. Conceivably?

Roger: Indie deserves a far, FAR worse death than hip hop, what with everything from Hot Hot Heat to the Arcade Fire to TV on the Radio etc etc etc. Fucking disgrace.

Yes, please. Art rock has overstayed its welcome.

Oh I WOULDN'T???

Well, I think in terms of pop accessibility, it's easily the best thing going. But not everyone over 35 can relate to all the black male bravado and artifice. Again, not saying other genres don't have their indulgences.

Hell no! I think 29 minutes is perfect. Room on Fire, Pink Moon, Histoire de Melody Nelson, Desertshore are all lovely little morsels of music. I always think that The Idiot is just about perfect in length, too, although it might be a little longer. I just bought this Sufjan Stevens album the other day, and I can't even find the time to listen to the whole fucking thing..

yet they can relate to all the white male introspection and artifice?

Did you read the next sentence, Alfred?

"Again, not saying other genres don't have their indulgences."

Not when the thread is about hip-hop. Yawns.

yes, get loose is a great song!

also, while we're on it, can somebody explain the young jeezy thing to me again? i like the album alright, but i'm just not seeing what's getting everybody else so worked up, and to date i really haven't read anything about him that's been good enough to make me reevaluate.

im not saying i know it all, but for all your sarcasm, i should probably just say that my comments above about wanting hip hop to die are to do with raised expectations caused from listening to nothing but hip hop from 13 to when i was about 22 (well with some exceptions, but well, not many). i was prob being a bit overdramatic when i said hip hop should hurry up and die, but a lot of it leaves me cold these days. and im not one of those golden age-pining fuxors, i dont want everything to sound like it was 94 again, i just find a lot of production today to not actually be that 'hard'. too many hip hop beats are so slick and sterile these days theyre like digital murder muzak (ho ho). im not saying ALL rap today sucks - some albums i really love/like from recent years include madvillain, most of mf dooms stuff (although dangerdoom is pretty boring and doom by numbers), slim thug, lil scrappy, ying yang, lil jon, lil wayne, killer mike, things like that. but i dont really hear anyone trying to 'change the game' or whatever. those albums you mentioned are good, but theyre not brilliant IMHO. the last album i heard and thought it was really different to what else was happpening was kings of crunk cos it was so hardcore. plus, out of all the things you mentioned, theyre all pretty interchangeable. obviously i know how TI sounds compared to trick daddy, but theyre all rapping about the same ol (post-?)gangsta stuff. its like everyones drawing from the same character pool.

if you like those, then get the viktor vaughn albums - the beats arent as good as when doom produces himself though (or lets madlib do it).

i'd say that hip hop has placed even more limitations on itself then ever before, and its more than happy being limited by them, as long as the money keeps rolling in.

Not me, for heaven's sake, I've loved hiphop for years! But listen to yourself: a person who doesn't like it should "accept [his] weakness" - this is laying a path for a really hideous critical orthodoxy. A person who dislikes a genre and lays out critical grounds for his position doesn't have a "weakness," he has a critical position. That's what criticism is all about! I can't imagine that if somebody wanted to argue (as one might) "indie rock is stagnant and boring" you'd tell them that the fault lay in them & not in the music: or would you? And, if so, do you think people just shouldn't criticise music at all? And, if so, what are we doing here?

Oh my god, I'm a size queen

True. But I have yet to read an original defense of the thread title. All I've read are the usual reasons, explicit ('as long as the money keeps rolling in") and implicit ("those party-animal black people, they can't record albums as good as A.C. Newman's")

people should just accept that if they find onw flaw in a genre, they just dont like that genre, full stop. nothing more to it then that.

"those party-animal black people, they can't record albums as good as A.C. Newman's"

who has said that here? no one. theres plenty of fantastic blues, soul, R&B, hip hop etc etc albums to prove otherwise.

might be wrong, but i THINK there were girls before there was gangsta rap. (then again, there were gangsters before there was gangsta rap too, i guess.) anyway, how many girl tunes is too many, okokok?

and anyway, trick daddy raps about how he loves the kids!!

jeff chang says that women were created when eazy e came into the picture. unfortunately he paid for his valiant attempts to create them by contracting HIV which sent him to an early grave.

anyway, deej, you carry on being an eternal optimist and lover of everything hip hop. ill carry on being a curmudgeon. i obviously never liked it in the first place, otherwise i wouldnt be having difficulty listening to the likes of the not-garbage-at-all juelz santana.

Ha ha:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/98/17/music-eddy.php

if you're going to claim somebody's saying something like this you ought to at least quote the sentence where you think they're saying it & point out very clearly where you think this sentiment's implicit! not my place to tell you what to do of course but you seem to think/imagine that there's a really virulent racism underlying positions that don't seem (to me) to be saying what you're hearing at all.

sarcasm my friend, its BACK LIKE COOKED CRACK in 2005!
dips = horrifically wack except for killa 'king of all mumblers' cam