Why do people like horrible singing voices?

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Not necessarily horrible in every instance, but just... rubbish. Why do people like singers who can't sing? It seems to be a historical trend, from Dylan through Madonna to James Blunt. I know people who insist that Blunt's voice is beautiful but to me it is as a honking, castrated dog. Chris Martin likewise, people think his voice is beautiful, but if you listen to "Fix You" he's all over the place, garbling and missing notes, but people love it. Why are they popular?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:48 (twenty years ago)

Where is the Simply Red single in the midweek charts then?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:52 (twenty years ago)

Do you just mean "Why do people like voices that sound horrible to me?"

"Why do people like technically horrible singing voices?" is a valid question too, but my opera-singing ex-girlfriend used to say that Martin had a pretty technically able voice. (She loathed Tom Waits.) Maybe Dan S will weigh in.

― sean gramophone (Sean M), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:53 (twenty years ago)

Because personality > technique?

It's Ian Brown that I can't cope with. Worst live singer I've ever heard, by a massive distance.

I ought to dig up that Charlotte Church quote about Chris Martin again... I stuck it on one of the Coldplay threads.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

Why do people go for the honking, castrated canine voice of fit ex-squaddie who does a striptease in his video James Blunt? It truly is a mystery.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:55 (twenty years ago)

Nick, I know it's a cliche to use this as a comeback with you but really... Danny MacNamara??

Honestly though, that to me is a voice that sounds very strained, flat and clumsy but clearly you get quite a lot out of it. So what's the secret?

With a lot of these it's not the voice per se but the performance, timing, emphases, delivery, call it what you will - especially w/Dylan and early Madonna.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

What people don't understand is that people like Blunt and Martin, not because of their vocal technique, but because they are fit. This is what matters in 2005 pop.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:56 (twenty years ago)

dylan has a great voice, wtf?

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it hurts Blunt or Martin but I don't think it's the prime determinant of their success either. Sentimentality plays a big part - one of my colleagues only liked Athlete's "Wires" (now there's a rub voice) when she learned it was about his little baby.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 09:59 (twenty years ago)

the start of 'fix you' really did throw me for a loop, cos there's no way you can overlook its awfulness, but usually i think martin somehow gets awaywith it. it's a fine line.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:01 (twenty years ago)

I read somewhere that Tom Waits has a 7-octave vocal range. That's fucked up. So's his voice but I still like him and I think it suits his music that it sounds like he's gargling with cream crackers.

― dog latin (dog latin), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:03 (twenty years ago)

People pop Blunt and Martin in their trolleys to cheer themselves up after shopping for sprouts. They used to do the same thing with Terry's All Gold.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:03 (twenty years ago)

Dylan does not have a greats voice. It is technical deficienc, which is why he has never had a number one hit, as opposed to other more technical able and therefore more melodic singers of the period, such as Ken Dodd and Jim Reeves.

― Comstock Carabineri (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:06 (twenty years ago)

Oh, here we are.

"I can't stand Bob Dylan. He sounds like a freak. And that Chris Martin isn't any good either - he can't do any vibrato, which colours a voice, so he just sounds conversational." Now she's in her stride. "Look, I don't mind Coldplay," she continues, getting increasingly animated. "And I know that style of singing is very modern. But it's a bit wimpy and as soon as one person's done it, they're all fuckin' at it. They're trying to sound like Jeff Buckley, but his voice is outstanding and nobody can be compared to that feller."

- Charlotte Church.

― mike t-diva (mike t-diva), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:07 (twenty years ago)

dylan isn't trying to 'sing' as she construes singing.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:08 (twenty years ago)

Our Charlotte is an infinitely better singer than Their Bob. Better songs too.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:09 (twenty years ago)

balls.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:10 (twenty years ago)

Bob Dylan has never written a song as good as "Let's Be Alone." Fact.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:11 (twenty years ago)

Because personality > technique?

even more of a black mark against blunt!

i think it stems from the idea of vocal flaws reflecting emotional sincerity - cracks in the voice, soul over clinical technique. somehow this has been warped into fucking unlistenable voices like blunt being interpreted as the height of passion. ugh.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:12 (twenty years ago)

oh c-lo is better than boring old dylan in every possible way.

― The Lex (The Lex), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:13 (twenty years ago)

MANUFACTURED POP IS MORE FUN THAN YOUR HOARY OLD FOLK SINGERS LIKE BOBBY DYLAN OH YES

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

"Cannonball" by Damien Rice proves Lex' point.

I'm ignoring the tiresome poppist contrarianism manifesting here. ;)

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:14 (twenty years ago)

henry you misspelt "hoary" there.

also: bobby darin > bobby dylan

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:15 (twenty years ago)

Charlotte Church would never lower herself to doing an advert for lingerie.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:16 (twenty years ago)

also: bobby darin > bobby dylan

Bobby Davro > Bobby Dylan

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:17 (twenty years ago)

Charlotte Church would never lower herself to doing an advert for lingerie.
-- Dom Passantino (juror...), October 20th, 2005.

haha!

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:18 (twenty years ago)

now come on honestly, which is preferable - the sexy welsh diva giving you the come-on (metaphorically) or haggard old wino with moothie dribbling "huluhhummllmhmmhblrrmhmmlmhmhh HUV YE GOAT 1OP SON? hrrmllbrrmhlmmhmmlmz" for 20 minutes at a time?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:25 (twenty years ago)

[i shd add this important fact: i have not consciously heard any post-1967 dylan music]

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:27 (twenty years ago)

ihttp://www.rikwalton.com/music/rock/kevincoyne/p/keco002.jpg

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

Who gives a fuck what someone's voice sounds like? I only care about whether they can sing. Dylan can sing. So can Howlin' Wolf, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Johnny Rotten and loads of others who weren't born with a conventionally pretty voice.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:34 (twenty years ago)

Dylan can sing in tune, which more than most singers can manage - well he used to be able to

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:35 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, but whose tune? Luigi Nono's?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:38 (twenty years ago)

You'd need Cathy Berberian for that, if that husband of her would let her sing for anyone else - Hey Luciano!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

Our Cathy, sadly, passed on some 22 years ago, so that's unlikely.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:41 (twenty years ago)

I know, so did Luciano

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:43 (twenty years ago)

Indeed he did, two years ago. He might be working with Alma Cogan these days.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 10:47 (twenty years ago)

which is preferable - the sexy welsh diva giving you the come-on (metaphorically) or haggard old wino with moothie dribbling "huluhhummllmhmmhblrrmhmmlmhmhh HUV YE GOAT 1OP SON? hrrmllbrrmhlmmhmmlmz" for 20 minutes at a time?

the latter, thanks.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:05 (twenty years ago)

do you talk to yourself at bus stops?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:07 (twenty years ago)

Well, if no-one else will, why not?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

no, i just find your automatic popism dreary and played-out.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

What, like Bob Dylan is?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

Operatic popism?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

I'm far from popist, but I really dislike Dylan.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

Certainly wasn't as good a song stylist as Glen Daly!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:18 (twenty years ago)

How dare you mention Glen in a thread dedicated to horrible singing voices!

ihttp://www.musicscotland.co.uk/musicbox/catalog/images/glen%20daly.jpg

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:20 (twenty years ago)

admittedly i don't find it half as dreary and played-out as marcello's constant snarky pseudo-populist "come now, you know i'm right" dribblings on threads like these.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:24 (twenty years ago)

the thing is, i am right. not my fault you can't deal with it.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:25 (twenty years ago)

wow, you make a very convincing argument. well, i'm off to dispose of all those horrible dylan records that were never any good, even a little bit. wonder how i never noticed before.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:27 (twenty years ago)

that's the spirit. take them to your local second-hand shop. you might get a fiver for the lot. think of all the chips that would purchase!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

well, i'm off to dispose of all those horrible dylan records that were never any good

Landfill or impacter?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:29 (twenty years ago)

Blimey. Are you hoping for a revival of the "people only like chartpop 'cos they want to sleep with the singers" meme?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

yesterday i listened to hallelujah three times as sung by buckley, cohen and dylan and i would rate their voices in that order.

this would not prevent me from contesting that anyone who affects to rate charlotte church above dylan is a blithering idiot restating an extremely tired joke position that wasn't ever witty or clever in the first place.

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:34 (twenty years ago)

who's joking? you honestly prefer dylan? i don't think so. what you have to remember is that your voice is not your own, you are the product of a discourse. charlotte is better looking, has a better voice and sings better songs than dylan. that is not humour or cleverness. that is the demonstrable truth.

oh and john cale's "hallelujah" trumps the three you mentioned. the fact that you "rate" voices in any order indicates your stymied pavlovian first-gear response mode.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:49 (twenty years ago)

marcello, you're insane. that is not humor or cleverness. that is the demonstrable truth.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:52 (twenty years ago)

Charlotte Church better looking? Clearly Marcello's lost his mind.

http://www.bucketofporn.com/images/charlotte_church_phone.gif

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:53 (twenty years ago)

cale's hallelujah is better than buckley's, that's certainly true

― vacuum cleaner (electricsound), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:54 (twenty years ago)

marcello, you are the half-baked product of a poptism discourse that other people invented so i wouldn't get so high-minded! i was rating voices purely in terms of how I (and the 2000 years of western culture discourse that produced me, obv) enjoyed them; not in terms of some standard of technical proficiency under which i freely admit charlotte church would come out top. it's a bit pervy all this stuff about fancying a welsh teenager in your dotage tho innit?

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 20 October 2005 11:59 (twenty years ago)

i will happily now go and check out cale's version, in stymied first-gear raspberry pavlova mode.

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:00 (twenty years ago)

2000 years of western culture are overrated

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:11 (twenty years ago)

mc disagrees with m matos => mc is not right.
and i note three clear sneers in mr blount's last post.
unfortunately, mr blount, your voice is not your own, you are the product of a discourse based on the unstable illusion that black music and black people are somehow "perfect."
(and note further how such apologists always cite james brown as though he were the essence of purity rather than the biggest bore in the last half-century of popular music; though coltrane runs him a close second).
-- Marcello Carlin (marcellocarlin@...), March 3rd, 2003.
no i think you'll find it's a polish you use to clean your boots.
but unfortunately the predictable attacks indicate yet again that your voice is not your own, you are the product of a discourse.
marley ripped off lee perry's vocal stylings and grafted it clumsily onto clapton's love-me-rich-white-man sickening succour.
sinatra can make me weep. coltrane can make me scream. marley just makes me yawn. go and listen to proper reggae, i.e. dr alimantado, joe gibbs, pablo, culture, burning spear, congos (did marley ever do anything as sheerly VISIONARY as any given nanosecond of "Row Fisherman Row"?) et Al (Green).
-- Marcello Carlin (marcellocarlin@...), May 21st, 2004.
the idea, rather than the actuality, of "soul" has been pop esperanto for easily 15-20 years now. so, for example, everyone on fame academy and popstars is compelled at bayonet point to "emote" whitney/celine/mariah-style. they cannot sing in their own voice or allow failure to penetrate what they are singing. soul as corporatisation.
(or as simon r would say: "their voice is not their own. they are the product of a discourse" - except even that's not true; they are actually the product of a desired demographic.
but certainly robert wyatt has more soul in his fingernails than celine dion has in her entire tax-evasion pacific island of a corpus.

-- Marcello Carlin (marcellocarlin@...), January 22nd, 2003.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

now you understand the undulating dynamic of this exercise.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:29 (twenty years ago)

it seems that you're the product of simon reynold's discourse, undulating or otherwise, but the constant repetition would seem more dynamic than static.

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:33 (twenty years ago)

or the reverse even.

― barbarian cities (jaybob3005), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

well it is the reverse, strictly speaking reynolds is the product of my discourse. my repetition is as dynamic as a bastard shag between gertrude stein and james brown.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:38 (twenty years ago)

http://www.edwardsly.com/biography/stein.jpg

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/entertainers/music/james-brown/james-brown-mugshot.jpg

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:40 (twenty years ago)

to feel superior

― retrogurl, Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

i am, to mediocritique.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

Let's compare:

http://charlottechurch.net/tandi/images/off6.jpg
Charlotte Church

http://www.bumfights.com/images/stickerlargecolorweb.jpg
Bob Dylan

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:45 (twenty years ago)

Bob Dylan on the cover of Highway 61 is very sexy, I reckon.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:53 (twenty years ago)

(and note further how such apologists always cite james brown as though he were the essence of purity rather than the biggest bore in the last half-century of popular music; though coltrane runs him a close second).

I expected this to be by Geir.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Thursday, 20 October 2005 12:56 (twenty years ago)

You can't really compare Bob and Charlotte, because they both serve different functions, no?

― nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:03 (twenty years ago)

Charlotte Church better looking? Clearly Marcello's lost his mind.

You have obviously been posting this pic blind. She's SEXEEE. Not in a boulemic, pumped up, plasticky Victioria Beckham kinda way. She's *really* sexy.

― nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

And I was being *really* ironic.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

I LIKE IT RAW
OOH BABY I LIKE IT RAAAW

― Old School (sexyDancer), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:16 (twenty years ago)

bob wins

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 20 October 2005 14:19 (twenty years ago)

Can you imagine what Dylan's songs would have sounded like if charlotte church sung them the first time you heard them?

I can. Awful. They would lose their power.

If you want to look at the voice as just a technical instrument go ahead. but it's your loss. there is a word for people like charlotte church in the english language: ignorant

she's right about chris martin's lack of vibrato, but imagine the song yellow with vibrato on all the "for you" parts. it would sound dreadfully cheesy. I think that there is something to be said for vibrato in some places and not in others. Also, "fix you" 's vocals are auto-tuned to perfection. All over the place? i don't think so.

― craptain crunch, Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:07 (twenty years ago)

I think I'd rather hear Charlotte doing "It Ain't Me Babe" than Dylan doing "Crazy Chick", to be honest.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 20 October 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

This thread is chock-full of outstandingly asinine, indefensibly stupid statements:

dylan has a great voice, wtf?

If you are talking about Bob Dylan as a singer, the man can't hold pitch and he has no stamina, not to mention his entire production mechanism is pinched and nasal.

I read somewhere that Tom Waits has a 7-octave vocal range.

This is incredibly stupid and whoever wrote this should be shot. If he could sing every note from two octaves below middle-C to two octaves above middle-C (ie, he was a true bass with a strong falsetto), that would only be a four octave range. NO ONE can add three octaves onto that.

Dylan can sing. So can Howlin' Wolf, Billie Holiday, Louis Armstrong, Johnny Rotten and loads of others who weren't born with a conventionally pretty voice.

Since when has Billie Holiday been considered an unconventional "bad" singer? That is massive revisionism (or blatant ignorance) on an unimaginable scale.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, 20 October 2005 18:13 (twenty years ago)

Since when has Billie Holiday been considered an unconventional "bad" singer?

Circa Lady in Satin, I would think. W/r/t "range" and "stamina" and all that.

That Tom Waits thing was bullshit, but perhaps they were thinking of that similar rumor about Captain Beefheart.

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 18:27 (twenty years ago)

Wait, so we're talking drug-ravaged latter-day Billie Holiday as being representative of all of her career performances?

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, 20 October 2005 18:42 (twenty years ago)

If you are talking about Bob Dylan as a singer, the man can't hold pitch and he has no stamina, not to mention his entire production mechanism is pinched and nasal

Dan OTM. Dylan was not a great singer by any conventional measure, let's face it. This is especially noticeable on his earlier albums - I listened to Freewheelin recently, and that pinched nasal quality was in full effect. I think he got better as he learned to deal with his limitations. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say he did his best singing during his worst overall artistic period - ie. the late '70s and the '80s.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 18:49 (twenty years ago)

i love it when people try to "prove" dylan is a bad singer by comparing him to singers who aren't remotely trying to achieve the same effects he is. if some anti-rock pundit wrote a piece for the national review or whatever pointing out what a mediocre singer john lennon was compared to maria callas, we'd be ripping it to shreds. dylan had an incredibly expressive voice from around 1962 until at least the end of '67. it wasn't pretty at all - there are plenty of times when i get sick of him - but it was as powerful as any singing i've ever heard. and if you still think that's an "outstandingly asinine" opinion, fuck off and enjoy your celine dion records.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)

Hey - I like Dylan's voice - I just wouldn't say he was a great singer. I think he's perhaps an important singer in the same sense that, say, Johnny Rotten is an important singer - because he had that great sneer and wonderful expressive capabilities that come through in his singing. But the timbral qualities of his voice, as well as pitch fidelity and various other technical measures, leave something to be desired on occasion.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 18:59 (twenty years ago)

Wait, so we're talking drug-ravaged latter-day Billie Holiday as being representative of all of her career performances?

I'm counting Lady in Satin-era material as at least a part of Billie Holiday's appeal, reputation, and legacy, and possibly the part where that "revisionist" idea of her being a non-traditionally "good" singer came from.

Also, speaking as a gigantic Dylan fan, I find his voice to be of wildly varying quality in the early '60s. The earliest bootlegs demonstrate that he had good pitch and could sing "pretty" if he wanted too... but he never really translated it to record, where he went for the boozy-old-folkie voice. He had the most irritatingly thin, reedy, nasal voice for most of 1964. Speed or 'ludes or booze 'n' cigarettes deepened it nicely by '66.

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)

Well this thread is reminding me once again why I hate Dylan, so there's that.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:02 (twenty years ago)

"important singer" = worst worst possible compliment ever.

Say "expressive" or something, fer chrissakes.

It's a performance! Like Johnny Rotten!

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

fair point alex, i do think dylan got really shrill and grating on some of those earlyish records - i've always thought that was as much deliberate as it was down to any vocal limitations, but it's hard to listen to much. some of those performances it almost sounds like he's delighting in how horrible he sounds (much like rotten). but his voice just sounds so rich and subtle on highway 61/blonde on blonde, it's remarkable how quickly it matured.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

the whole idea that someone could be better at singing is bullshit actually

it's like saying that believing in a jewish god is better than believing in a christian god

i am proud to believe in no god

― RalphTheHardrive, Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Ah, so you hate all singers.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:49 (twenty years ago)

"[email protected]"

― The Ghost of ROFFLES (Dan Perry), Thursday, 20 October 2005 19:50 (twenty years ago)

haha I love the dismissal of Dylan's voice on technical grounds, as if that wouldn't exclude pretty much any rock singer ever, not to mention most blues, folk, bluegrass singers...none of them "can sing", not a one!

― Keith C (lync0), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:05 (twenty years ago)

This whole "Dylan can't sing" meme has been a mammoth ruse from day one, all those years ago. He's a great singer, what he can't do is play guitar!

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

All of these criteria are ridiculous. None of the great rock/soul/jazz voices "can sing" according to, say, La Scala standards. None of the opera tenors "can sing" according to qawwali standards. None of the qawwali singers... etc.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

All these points about the relativity of vocal standards are valid, though there's also no denying that at times Dylan sings like a family of boll weevils gnawing their way through your cochlea.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

k/l:

Seek out World Gone Wrong.

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

You forgot to mentioned the rounded vowels of Broadway singers, Joe. Although maybe opera comes more easily to mind because of the notably negative review of one that you wrote in "Citizen Kane."

Actually, A|ex, I was talking about the early days, although probably somebody will dispute me there as well.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

This is not actually true.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

(See, for a recent example, Fantasia Barrino completely outsinging Renee Fleming at last year's Kennedy Honors.)

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

Like a message broadcast on an overpass,
All my favorite singers couldn't sing.

(so... Fantasia = "rock," "blues," "folk," or "bluegrass" singer?)

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:26 (twenty years ago)

For some reason, I keep thinking of the stereotype Broadway wannabe working as a waiter in NYC and fussily overpronouncing the names of all the dishes.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

I forgot country singers! Hank Williams, now there's a guy that couldn't sing. Nasally as hell!

― Keith C (lync0), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:28 (twenty years ago)

You people are idiots.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:29 (twenty years ago)

who are all these clowns that CAN sing?

― Old School (sexyDancer), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, fill us in.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:31 (twenty years ago)

School us on their scintillating scale-scaling sorcery.

― k/l (Ken L), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

k/l, I think most of modern pop singers can actually hack it on Broadway. Of course, it has more to do with standards declining across the board. (Mind you, as a fairly awful singer myself, I don't mind it as much as you'd think).

Yeah, "Salaambo" was a disgrace. Haha.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

I'm with Dan here.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

I remember an old Simon Reynolds post where he states that a friend made him a mixtape that proved to him that Dylan is actually a very good singer as far as technical ability is concerned (but he still hates him.)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

(I really don't know anything about technical competence, or whether Dylan has it tho. I'd just like to hear that mixtape.)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:46 (twenty years ago)

I agree that Dylan is a "bad" singer. I'm not arguing anything about "importance" or "authenticity" or that bullshit. I just like the effect he achieves with it on certain recordings, at certain periods in his career.

I am actually curious about which successful rock singers have Dan's type of good voice. I'm sure there are plenty, but I'm also sure there are more who don't. Fantasia is a pop/r'n'b singer, ain't she?

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:49 (twenty years ago)

Ian Curtis will definitely make the cut. Guy had pipes.

― Keith C (lync0), Thursday, 20 October 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

What some call a 'horrible singing voice' (like Dylan's) is not an 'affectation', nor is it proof that one is consciously trying to demonstrate their 'sincerity'.

It's something that comes from the Scotch / Irish folk tradition in the old world, and especially folk tradition in North America - people's voices just aren't all shouty or belty or classical and stuff. No one is 'trying' to sound that way. It's just a type of voice that is best suited to certain types of music.

Sheesh. Listen to some old, old folk recordings if you don't believe me.

― cultural amnesia, Thursday, 20 October 2005 22:12 (twenty years ago)

With Dylan (1961-1964, say), in that it's an imitation of those old, old folk recordings , it is an "affectation" and an attempt to demonstrate "sincerity."

Can we talk about Craig Finn or something now?

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Thursday, 20 October 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

Is that 'final'? Honestly, I can't imagine Dylan singing any other type of music. I used to think he was 'affected' when I was young, but then I discovered a whole bunch of early folk music doing the same thing. How dare he not sing Broadway, because that's the only thing that idiots on the east coast can comprehend!

― mickey raft (mickeygraft), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:34 (twenty years ago)

Sick Mouthy to thread

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:38 (twenty years ago)

look, just listen to dylan or waits while you jerk off to pictures of charlotte church. now can we please start arguing about bernard sumner?

― fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:52 (twenty years ago)

Dammit, can't anyone read?

Of course he's "affected" because he listened to that early folk music and imitated it! This is part of the reason I like Bob Dylan!

And WTF re. Broadway and east coast? Why the fuck does Broadway keep coming up?

Let's talk about Roger Miller. I like him, he could sing, and he wrote a Broadway musical! Originally starring John Goodman, who can also sing.

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Friday, 21 October 2005 04:53 (twenty years ago)

Oh yeah, let's talk about Roger Miller...not!

I'm sure Bob Dylan 'imitated' it because it suited him and his voice. He was just a folk singer in the beginning.

But at least he wasn't one of those nauseating hillbillies - I mean, he was a northern college boy and all!

― mickey raft (mickeygraft), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:07 (twenty years ago)

if some anti-rock pundit wrote a piece for the national review or whatever pointing out what a mediocre singer john lennon was compared to maria callas, we'd be ripping it to shreds.

note that "we" like a 20 ft cactus standing outside the east entrance to macy's.

the other thing of course is the songs. dylan can't write songs. his melodies are non-existent. his tunes have no tunes. if you want a litmus test of proper melody, imagine what like a rolling stone would sound like if the ventures or the shadows played it. exactly. even eve of destruction is a better tune than anything dylan's done, if only because it's actually a tune, notwithstanding that it has some sorely pertinent points to make about this disintegrating world in which we're living less, day by day.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:18 (twenty years ago)

??? like a rolling stone has plenty of melody! the true test is to be able to imagine it turned into elevator music, and im sure it has been.

― minna (minna), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:30 (twenty years ago)

try singing it. there is no actual melody (see also the smiths, dire straits etc.).

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:32 (twenty years ago)

well ok the verses dont have a lot going on melodically. the bridge is very hooky and melodic. you can sort of change it in your head to be more melodic than it is tho. but anyway in that case doesnt it say a lot for dylans voice that it can carry a completely tuneless song

― minna (minna), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:39 (twenty years ago)

Victor Mature could carry Rita Hayworth. Doesn't make him Laurence Olivier.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:41 (twenty years ago)

well i say bob brings MICROMELODIES very skilfully! (as opposed to 'does not sing in tune')

― minna (minna), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:43 (twenty years ago)

And hey, imagine the Byrds singing "Mr. Tambourine Man!" Now there's a laugh!

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:44 (twenty years ago)

Well they couldn't either but that's a separate issue.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 05:48 (twenty years ago)

note that "we" like a 20 ft cactus standing outside the east entrance to macy's.

i have no idea what the hell you're talking about, nor do i really want to.

you're just trolling, marcello. i regret wasting any time on you at all.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:22 (twenty years ago)

then explain to me what dylan's talking about.

and the word was "touche."

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:25 (twenty years ago)

The trolling on this thread is of a very high quality.

(xpost)

― thousands of tiny luminous spheres (plebian), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:35 (twenty years ago)

if dylan can't write melodies, why is he one of the most covered songwriters of the last century?

how is your insistence on subjecting dylan's songs to "a litmus test of proper melody" any different from one of geir's diatribes?

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:37 (twenty years ago)

I'm gonna have to explain why I don't hate Danny McNamara's voice sooner or later, aren't I?

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:38 (twenty years ago)

it'd be more interesting than this shower.

― Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:45 (twenty years ago)

dylan is only covered by people who can't sing or have little idea of melody or have an eye on their bank balance. just because people cover his songs does not negate the fact that his songs lack melody.

i understand that your ears are probably distorted from a painful lifetime of amelodic hip op beats, but this is the fact and that is fact.

whom are you calling a shower, you shower?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 08:49 (twenty years ago)

Victor Mature could carry Rita Hayworth. Doesn't make him Laurence Olivier.

He could also carry Hedy Lamarr which makes one lucky sonofabeeyatch

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:28 (twenty years ago)

this is sort of like the last act of the scopes trial when clarence darrow got william jennings bryan to to admit that he believed that "man is not a mammal."

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:29 (twenty years ago)

"What people don't understand is that people like Blunt and Martin, not because of their vocal technique, but because they are fit. This is what matters in 2005 pop. "

That is what matters to 14 year-olds. Chris Martin doesn't sell a lot of records to 14 year-olds.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:36 (twenty years ago)

Fuck off.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:39 (twenty years ago)

Chris Martin doesn't sell a lot of records to 14 year-olds

But I bet he'd like to

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:40 (twenty years ago)

I expect Geir knows quite a lot about 14-year-olds. Or would like to know quite a lot about 14-year-olds.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 10:44 (twenty years ago)

Victor Mature could carry Rita Hayworth. Doesn't make him Laurence Olivier.

Laurence Olivier never worked with The Monkees, clearly Mature - and, by extension, Dylan - wins.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:08 (twenty years ago)

Mature was never out-acted by Neil Diamond, clearly Olivier loses on all fronts

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:11 (twenty years ago)

The Monkees are another pile of overrated pisspoo.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:11 (twenty years ago)

Larry took the money. The author of "I'm A Believer" believed it. Which is worse?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:12 (twenty years ago)

You danced to them tho!

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

Sick Mouthy to thread, again

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:14 (twenty years ago)

I was dancing in my head to the Robert Wyatt version.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

I'll say something you can ridicule in the manner of a schoolyard bully soon, RJG, don't worry.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:17 (twenty years ago)

: D

― RJG (RJG), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:22 (twenty years ago)

Wow, this thread appears to be a new low for Marcello.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Friday, 21 October 2005 11:45 (twenty years ago)

i'll just repeat what others have said: I find dylan's voice expressive. He may not have a great range, may not be able to hold a tune *too* well and all that, but TO ME it's good enough that it tends to not distract. There's something about the way he sings Girl From North Country on Freewheelin that makes me have this crazy nostalgia for someplace I've never been. Or the way he sings It's Alright Ma or Visions of Johanna. and most covers of dylan I've heard by people who are incredibly more technically able than him somehow miss the mark for me.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

If you want to look at the voice as just a technical instrument go ahead. but it's your loss. there is a word for people like charlotte church in the english language: ignorant

So you're actually implying that a perfect voice can't express any emotion. How sad, no? Both serve different functions/goals. I believe that in Pop you sometimes need *perfection* to convey that perfect world we want to escape to. This would never work if Neil Young or Bob Dylan sang those songs. But vice versa, you need a Dylan or whatever croaky voiced bloke (or woman) to have the opposite. Both have expressive voices, but both express different emotions.

― nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:24 (twenty years ago)

And by the way, how sad if you can't enjoy Pop music sung by Charlotte Church. Put your blinkers off and ENJOY her songs. ;-) The record is a mixed bunch but there's some great stuff on there.

― nathalie, a bum like you (stevie nixed), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:25 (twenty years ago)

yeah, OTM AaronK. and his performances during the 66 tour are emotionally amazing. among the most intense singing I've ever heard.

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:27 (twenty years ago)

By the way, the answer to the original thread question is that some people don't like to be intimidated by music/musicians. It's that simple. Same reason some people prefer lo-fi production.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:28 (twenty years ago)

well, I dunno... am I intimidated by celine dion or mariah carey ? errr...don't think so !

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:31 (twenty years ago)

Perhaps I misused the word "intimidation" somewhat. What I meant that some people are more comfortable when the music they listen to remains in the realm of the doable. I remember an early Beck interview where he talks about how 80s mainstream radio drove him nuts precisely because he could not fathom how the music was made.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:35 (twenty years ago)

You know, I freakin' hate Dylan (with a few notable exceptions), but if you held a gun to my head and asked me to listen to either him or, say, Josh Groban, I'd take Dylan every time.

― monkeybutler, Friday, 21 October 2005 12:37 (twenty years ago)

LOL monkeybutler ! just picturing the face of groban singing made me shiver...

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:43 (twenty years ago)

the thing is that I cannot fathom how dylan sings like that ! (really, try to grab a guitar and play/sing some of his songs the way he does them : impossible !).
anyway, you could apply this theory to todays "pop" : it's much easier to make any dylan recording than any rachel stevens, neptunes, etc trax (that's no contradiction with my previous statement, by the way !).

― AleXTC (AleXTC), Friday, 21 October 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

"Perhaps I misused the word "intimidation" somewhat. What I meant that some people are more comfortable when the music they listen to remains in the realm of the doable. I remember an early Beck interview where he talks about how 80s mainstream radio drove him nuts precisely because he could not fathom how the music was made.
-- joseph cotten "

wow, this puts into words something i think about a lot. At one point, for example, I preferred Yngwie over steve vai because it was at least fathomable that someone could make those sounds. That lasted about 5 minutes, but the point is there. of course, as knowledge of the subject grows, what becomes unfathomable diminishes greatly.

― AaronK (AaronK), Friday, 21 October 2005 15:20 (twenty years ago)

derek bailey doesn't really do melodies either but hey

― tom west (thomp), Friday, 21 October 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

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