Wu-Tang Forever

It's all coming back, great album. Violin solo at the end.

"Dog Shit" would be pretty meh, except that ODB goes OFF, making it transcendent.

Also search:
"Reunited" - OMGOMGOMGyes. It's Wu muthafuckas; Wu-Tang muthafuckas
"Severe Punishment" - I despise your killing - and raping... one of RZA's greatest-ever verses here, and Mast Killa drops the immortal couplet "fuck up your anatomy with assault and battery"
"Visionz"
"As High As Wu-Tang Get" - check Meth dropping the rare and elusive ABBA quatrain
"Hellz Wind Staff" - INS goes OFF. If you dig Wu-Tang, that should be all I need to say (but you also get classsic Rae - FRUZEN GLADJE! - and RZA - and Meth - and Ghost...)
"Duck Seazon" - Hot Wu-Gambino action with Rae "tired'a y'all; mostly inspired by y'all"; plus classic RZA and Meth
"Black Shampoo" - no, just kidding, "Black Shampoo" sucks

It occurs to me, maybe not for the first time, that RZA is a brutally underrated MC.

But you love dangerdoom?!

okokoko chill out, Bad Boy was awesome.

That said, lyrically this album has as many words as the Bible, and most of it's just as mysterious. Take a gander at some on-line lyrics pages for this album - the wordcraft is intense and dense.
Plus RZA's got one skit that's worth the price of admission: "What's up with your Speak-N-Spell shoes? Fisher Price - My First Timberlands!"

I admire Wu Tang Forever as an acheivement more than I actually enjoy it, but a serious rap fan shouldn't go without hearing it. Every couple of years I put it on and my jaw drops.

this is about all i can remember from this album. maybe i shd listen again, if i didn't sell it.

OTM, Supreme Clientele is the closest RZA's come to recreating his glory years of '92 - '96.

Hellz Wind Staff - c/d

it's great and fyi so is the W

No doubt. Bobby Digital has some amazing moments, but it's all jacked up by RZA's weak-ass rhymes. If I could find a nice instrumental version of this album, I might actually listen to it more.

Mostly I'm with EdIII on this: it's spotty. The single mix via "Hellz Wind Staff c/d" ( Hellz Wind Staff - c/d ) above is a good summation.

OK, I love the Wu, but that's a pretty weak-ass compliment there. What's the competition? "Gravel Pit"? OTM as far as the song goes, but the Triumph video, although I revelled in every second at the time, is kind of disorganized and overly effects-dependent. I do love Deck rapping on the side of that building, but Meth on the motorcycle is preposterous and nobody needs to see Cappadonna spinning around in a giant chair like this is the video for George Michael's "Fastlove"...

Needless to say my new favorite Wu-Tang video is "No Hooks"

Be ye of good cheer, sir.

this is a joke, right?

"bellz of war" is THE most underrated RZA beat of all time. Sounds like DJ Premier smacking the shit out of Tortoise. Seriously, check this song.

― Tynan DeLong, Wednesday, December 7, 2005 1:43 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i <3 the rza on this album. it's like he's always foaming at the mouth.

only white people liked wu-tang at that time
this is a joke, right?

― PeopleFunnyBoy (PeopleFunnyBoy), Friday, December 9, 2005 5:14 PM (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Shortly after this album's release, me and some other white dudes who mostly listened to metal and electronica got called out on this by some girl at a party. She said that she listened to Outkast.

Best Wu-Tang related release ever imo

Shortly after this album's release, me and some other white dudes who mostly listened to metal and electronica got called out on this by some girl at a party. She said that she listened to Outkast.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Wednesday, December 2, 2009 7:09 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha

the beats sound thin and weak compared to Cuban Linx, Ironman, and Liquid Swords. Never sounded very pleasing to listen to to me, with the exception of a few tracks.

you have the worst opinions about wu-tang fyi

Come on, the microphones sound like shit and the beats are so brittle. the tracks just repeat on loop in a way that earlier beats just didn't.

btw, i guarantee you that if you had to listen to either the instrumental versions of Wu-Tang Forever or any of the first round of Wu solo albums, you wouldn't choose Wu-Tang Forever.

i guarantee that you are RONG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUXiLm9cAk

i think a single disc version of Wu-Tang Forever's dopest tracks is like the artistic peak of RZA's career

Cuban Linx is the only one that gives it a run for its money sonically imho. RZA saved a bunch of tricks for this album - the loopy, Henry Threadgill-esque violins on Reunited, the sped-up sample/key change in For Heaven's Sake, the fuzzy drums on this just BANG. was listening to it last night as a matter of fact

I still like Wu-Tang Forever, but I wonder what it could have been if had a fuller sound like Iron Man, Liquid Swords, or OB4CL. Songs like "Older Gods" just sound half-assed in comparison.

oh yeah the half-assed songs on Wu-Tang Forever are REMARKABLY half-assed.

I mean, "Black Shampoo"

yeah that song is terrible

RZA definitely changed is equipment and had someone different master it, right? Agree with res that it sounds more brittle overall and there's some digital syntheticness creeping in, presaging Bobby Digital, but still a pretty good listen.

yeah Wu-Tang Manual details his equipment change/musical approach (this was also the first album he made after endeavouring to actually "learn music")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6WLO0E4ePk

man, love that beat

WGW pls list your single disc distillation? Would be curious.

I'm guessin...

Reunited
Triumph
Cash Rules/Scary Hours
For Heaven's Sake
As High as Wu-Tang Get
Hellz Wind Staff
Bells of War
Little Getto Boys
Visionz
Severe Punishment

i think i have my single disc version somewhere, i'll dig it up

No "Impossible"? That's one of the best tracks!

Wu Tang Forever (Whiney Van Gelder Edition)

What's the deal with "Deadly Melody"? Is this a freestyle?

does the end of everyone's "Impossible" have a weird glitch that sounds like a bad edit?

tell the news like katie chung

that's an embarrassing error

"RZA lost all of his analog equipment in a basement flood"

"digital syntheticness"

no. all samplers are digital. this is the most annoying thing ever written about forever

yes but some samplers show their digitalness more, smartypants

and producers use more equipment than just samplers

I was just listening to "Shame on a Nigga" and that doesn't show any signs of digital equipment. In fact, the production work in my opinion is just better as a whole than almost anything off of Forever. There are a lot more samples, there are bridges, there are different parts within the song; it's just a lot fuller in general, and it illustrates to me why Forever signals the beginning of the end.

I was just listening to "Shame on a Nigga" and that doesn't show any signs of digital equipment.

lol you don't know what "digital" means do you

drum sample = digital FYI

if you think the RZA was splicing all that stuff together with a razorblade and some tape loops you are sadly mistaken

i think a single disc version of Wu-Tang Forever's dopest tracks is like the artistic peak of RZA's career

― estela artois (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, April 12, 2010

highly defensible position imo

iirc from that manual, the older stuff sounds "more analogue"/grittier because he'd use a lower bit/sample rate in order to use longer sample times

^^^ding ding

so what comes across as analog grit is actually just digital noise - in effect making the recordings actually MORE digital-sounding than the later material

otm, obviously when people are talking about "digital" here they mean cleaner sounds & samples + use of digital keyboards, right?

http://www.vintagesynth.com/ensoniq/ens_eps.php

Its 12-bit sampler is highly versatile with 40 sample rates to choose from (6.25 to 52kHz). However, higher sample rates mean less polyphony and sample time. Unfortunately sample memory is miniscule at 480k expandable up to 2.1Mb yielding from 5 to 40 seconds of sample memory. Some of the EPS's goodies include an 8 to 16 track sequencer (which steals its memory space from the same RAM that holds the samples) with quantizing, digital filters that seem like analog and preset template envelope options.

lol you don't know what "digital" means do you

I do know what it means. I've actually worked as an audio engineer before. Notice that I didn't say that they didn't use digital equipment; I just said that it didn't show signs of it. Big difference.

so what comes across as analog grit is actually just digital noise - in effect making the recordings actually MORE digital-sounding than the later material

Again, you are conflating the sound with the equipment. I bet nearly 100% of people presented with those two albums would say that the "Enter the Wu-Tang" *sounds* more analog than "Wu-Tang Forever." The latter has a distinctively digital sound created by the fact that is more metronomic, precise, and less organic. It also has far fewer samples of live instrumentation.

smh

was the early wu-tang stuff recorded to tape?

I just said that it didn't show signs of it.

it DID show signs of it, you just don't want to acknowledge that those signs signify what they actually are - which is digital artifacting. The terms "metronomic" and "precise" do not have anything to do with whether a recording is digital or not. On the other hand, there is nothing by definition "less organic" than digitally-created static and noise, which are all over Enter the 36 Chambers/Return/etc. But this is a stupid semantic argument that probably isn't worth pursuing, seeing as how it all hinges on your insistence on using an inaccurate, amorphous and illogical definition of the term "digital".

was the early wu-tang stuff recorded to tape?

I don't recall from the Manual, but my guess would be ADAT.

yeah i don't know, i just remember reading about like "nation of millions" and they were doing tape back then...

and DJ Quik a few years ago said something about how he liked to record analog for the sound quality of it

i seem to remember that D&D in NY was a tape studio but not 100 percent sure, that would have been around the early wu-tang era

yeah it's entirely possible they went to 2" tape or something. which would have put some nice analog compression on the end product - but the samples/beats/backing tracks are all digital.

yeah samplers are digital obv.

to me though, it's a pretty simple question: analog records are done to analog tape, digital recordings are done to ADAT or hard disc, not reason to make it such a muddy question

was anybody using hard discs to master back then...? seems kinda early for that, but I don't know

some interesting tidbits here:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip-hop-engineering-production/53963-enter-36-chambers-all-have-standing-waves-below-100hz.html

to me though, it's a pretty simple question: analog records are done to analog tape, digital recordings are done to ADAT or hard disc, not reason to make it such a muddy question

not really, plenty of people record to tape and then edit or mix on a computer, or record everything digitally and then bounce it down to tape for the sound.

it DID show signs of it, you just don't want to acknowledge that those signs signify what they actually are - which is digital artifacting. The terms "metronomic" and "precise" do not have anything to do with whether a recording is digital or not. On the other hand, there is nothing by definition "less organic" than digitally-created static and noise, which are all over Enter the 36 Chambers/Return/etc. But this is a stupid semantic argument that probably isn't worth pursuing, seeing as how it all hinges on your insistence on using an inaccurate, amorphous and illogical definition of the term "digital".

You're getting hung up on the use of the wold 'digital' as a construct relating to binary representation vs. wave representation of signal. But I'm not using it to describe an engineering process; I'm using it to describe an aesthetic. As in "samples of digitally-produced sound" vs. "samples of non-digitally-produced [e.g. live instrumentation] sound."

ok that makes sense to me

???

your example of an aesthetic (i.e., what is being sampled and how) IS an engineering process. and I'm not sure which of the options you provide in your example correspond to Enter the 36 Chambers or Forever. Because a lot of the instrumentation and samples on Forever are of "live" instrumentation - people playing digital keyboards and electric bass, for ex. - and of course there are also samples from vinyl and movies in there as well. By contrast, almost everything on 36 Chambers is a sample of a record (with a few exceptions iirc). Is one of these approaches "more digital" than the other? No of course not - they're both digital, they're both sample-based. The only difference is by the time of "Forever", RZA was able to afford more expensive gear and had learned a little bit about actually using live instrumentation (digital and analog). If that's what you don't like, fine, that's your perogative, but it has nothing to do with the level of digital technology involved, really.

lotsa aspies arguing about what digital is up in here

point is rza lost his shit in a flood, all his stuff after iron man sounds different, some ppl like it and some ppl don't

did I miss anything else

Am I the only one who thinks RZA's beats got better when they got more crisp (or "digital" or whatever word you want to use)? I like some of the more creative uses of samples on 36 Chambers, but a lot of the album just sounds awful in its muddiness. The drums are especially weak on several tracks, just listen to "Shame on a Nigga", for example. I like the drums on rap tunes to hit hard, and for most parts 36 Chambers just doesn't do it. In my opinion beatwise 36 Chambers > Forever > The W, with The W probably being the apex of RZA's beat production. The sound on that album is so crisp and precise yet beautifully off-kilter, nothing on 36 Chambers sounds as dope as "Careful (Click, Click)".

Sorry, I meant 36 Chambers < Forever < The W.

36 Chambers > Forever > The W

this isn't what you meant but I agree lol

all I know is I get weird chills up my spine listening to "CREAM", "can it be all so simple" and the end of "da mystery of chessboxin'", and not the others

that's some mystical shit right there, I don't care if he recorded it with two cans and a violin string

that's not to say forever and the W don't have great songs on 'em

I'm in awe of the wordsmithery on forever to this day, and the W has "I can't go to sleep" which is a high watermark of black madness

Well yeah, I didn't mean to say 36 Chambers is bad, I love many tunes on it, but I never understood why so many people think the lo-fi muddy sound is so awesome in its entirety. In some ways RZA managed to do inspired things with limited means on the album, but in other ways (the drums especially) it just sounds pretty crappy.

(x-post)

kinda feelin Tuomas here tbh, altho the W is not my favorite

36 chambers has got a certain charm. I know with certainty I'd rather hear "protect ya neck" than "protect ya neck (the jump off)" from the W, even tho the original sounds like it was recorded on a speak n spell.

I guess it's the same reason I'd rather hear elvis recordings from dinky one room sun studios than later ones where opulent studio microphones caught every wheeze for posterity. that early fire in the belly got caught on tape. sound quality doesn't equal quality. that seems like it should go without saying but I guess it doesn't.

and RZA really knew how to make lo-fi work for him

point is rza lost his shit in a flood, all his stuff after iron man sounds different, some ppl like it and some ppl don't

yeah, you pretty much got it.

the 'the w >> 36 chambers' nonsense is some euro newjack interpretation that has been going around ilm for awhile. 'click click' is dope but come on

I think it's just Tuomas

I don't think The W is better than 36 Chambers as such, only that it has a better sound. If you consider the raps and overall song quality, 36 Chambers is still the best Clan album.

nah even Tim F. I think preferred their later stuff & obv Tim is a better man than i but sometimes u just cant help being from australia

australia isn't in europe

culturally isnt it europe with more surfer bros

and funnier animals

dude not even close, for real

pretty sure im joking?

I know I'm just feeling defensive abt oz 'cause I'm there now and it's so chill whereas Europe is like "say goodbye to the whole concept of chilling"

Deej I don't think that. I have the even odder preference for Iron Flag over and above everything. Like 36 Chambers more than The W.

(not sure if that's an Australia thing because Australian rap fans tend to be super-orthodox and ignore any 00s Wu product; more generally 36 Chambers appeals to the low production values of the Oz hip hop scene)

OTOH Wu albums can sometimes leap or plummet dramatically w/r/t how great they sound so maybe there was one day once when I thought the opposite.

fuck you, 'underrated aerosmith' shitface

jk

underrated aerosmith albums i have loved - latent surfer bro - chillin in this thread

...and australia, obvs

oz, the penal club med of europe

^ this is actually a verse on wu-tang forever

surfer bros sippin' fosters gold with ho's on hold
underrated aerosmith albums spit glory days of old
you wall-eyed from the last wave kiss bye bye to galipoli
mad max got nothing on me cuz a steel knee creak slightly

weak custos and I'm out

O_O daaaaaaammmnnnn

Australians don't drink Fosters.

(not sure if that's an Australia thing because Australian rap fans tend to be super-orthodox and ignore any 00s Wu product

no way, Ghost sold out two shows in Sydney with ppl going nuts for 00s shit, while the GZA had a half-full room for Liquid Swords performed in full

Shit is copper, it ain't worth the mic stands
Used by backup singers in Atlantic City bands

Playground maneuver
jet to Vancouver
like this: two Kahluas, one chick
German Luger

Yo, mind arson
my squadron, surround the Soundgarden

i forgot how heavy 5 percent this album was

a voice cries from the wilderness of the North

i bomb atomically
socrates' philosophies

IMMA RUB YOUR ASS IN THE MOONSHINE
LETS TAKE THIS SHIT BACK TO 79!

blowin' like Shalamar in 81