Best Black Sabbath Album

i saw a sign yesterday that said "Masters Realty" xD

Start a poll for the best Ozzy-less Sabbath record next since it's obvious that Ozzy is Sabbath as far as ILM is concerned.

it's *so* nice to have a poll break it all down into numbers for me to work with. Thanks.

None of them, I don't like Black Sabbath

man i have no idea what i voted originally (prob Master, if i even voted), but the answer has got to be Sabotage. SABOTAGE!

shame about that cover tho

but i need to hear SBS again. it's the only one of the first 6 i don't own.

Do it, you won't be sorry

Volume 4 might be one of the best albums ever. By anybody. That sh1t stands tall!

As far as favourite song...I "Supernaut" is the obv. choice but every time I go for it, a bunch of other songs pop in my mind..."Planet Caravan", "Cornucopia", "Sympton of the Universe", "Snowblind", "Fairies Wear Boots", "Children of the Grave", "St. Vitus Dance", "War Pigs". "Sweet Leaf", "It's Alright"...even "Changes" is ace; the last song played on Prom Night at Werewolf High School...

"The Wizard", "N.I.B.", "Electric Funeral", "Into the Void", "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath"...I can't stop...

one song I haven't heard, off of Sabotage, is called Megalomania...I heard it was killer...anybody out there know & like it???

no live evil???

one song I haven't heard, off of Sabotage, is called Megalomania...I heard it was killer...anybody out there know & like it???

it's morose but awesome. starts off slow and kinda ballad-y and then kicks in with a monster iommi riff. some strings but not dripping with them.

Paranoid's probably the best but Master of Reality is the most consistent, IMO.

poor sabbath bloody sabbath beaten by black sabbath haters

anyway, a loads of Sabbath albums are on Spotify now should anyone be interested.

IV winning seems challopsy to me in retrospect

i dont see why, IV has always been seen as the best album, here in the UK at least.

Especially in magazines like Kerrang in the late 80s through the 90s.

huh wow i didn't know that it was that canon in the UK...in the US it seems like paranoid is by far the one, followed by master of reality

i think this was the thread where i did the math and realized that sabotage is my favorite sabbath.

ususally.

all the mags I read had Vol IV as the album. Don't know how it's viewed now.
xp

I made a quantitative argument on some sabbath thread that sabotage >>>> vol 4

my mate would agree

Maybe someone should do a best sabbath album that wasn't ozzy or dio

Born Again would smoke that poll

oh, here's my vol 4 vs. sabotage breakdown from Black Sabbath - "Symptom Of the Universe"

weird, I was listening to sabotage non-stop over the holidays and decided my favorite sabbath albums are paranoid, master of reality, and sabotage.

this poll had me listening to vol 4 again like mad, but after all these years I still don't get the love for that album. you wanna talk about inconsistency?

"wheels of confusion" - yawn
"tomorrow's dream" - ok
"changes" - awesome mellotron but if you're a third of the way through yr sabbath album and the best song so far is a ballad there is a problem
"fx" - oh wait you are right this album rocks!
"supernaut" - don't get it. not a bad a song, definitely a good one. but I'm clearly not feeling it the way others are.
"snowblind" - now this is a great song!
"cornucopia" - another great song!
"laguna sunrise" - love the iommi mellow instrumentals. this isn't better than "orchid" but it's pretty damn good. wow, maybe this album is turning around!
"st vitus dance" - nope. note to sabbath: you are not the allman bros.
"under the sun" - can't even remember what this one sounds like. I think it's good + doomy? I'm too wracked with disappointment to pay attention.

compare with sabotage:
"hole in the sky" - great song, and love the way they start with the noise of fiddling and getting ready to start, it's like this is a BAND
"don't start (too late)" - it's filler but it's so short who cares
"symptom of the universe" - omfg OMFG
"megalomania" - okay at this point I've got almost 20 minutes of riff perfection, why you no like this album?
"the thrill of it all" - a good-not-great song, but that's all I need to keep my high going at this point
"supertzar" - kind of dopey but kind of cool in that wtf-is-sabbath-doing-now way
"am I going insane?" - underrated song, also like how they bury the pop tune in the back of the album
"the writ" - the only problem with this song is that it can't support an 8 minute runtime, gets draggy but starts out great especially if it's cranked

― Edward III, Monday, January 19, 2009 12:28 PM (2 months ago) Bookmark

Best Non Ozzy/Dio Black Sabbath Studio Album

Good try, but you stumble out of the gates on the Volume 4 rundown. Wheels of Confusion is an absolute monster. Plus the Supernaut thing kills me.

and how can you not love Tomorrow's Dream?

^yeah, I actually had a hard time wrapping my mind around this myself.

as far as IV being the best, I totally agree...challops?

IV > Paranoid: this is kind of hard to justify, except the fact that Paranoid was the first Sabbath album I ever bought, and I liked it, but I was already v. familiar with half the songs, and the other half didn't really jump out at me, giving me a first impression of the album as suffocating and monochromatic...I mean, there's songs on it I love...Planet Caravan, Fairies Wear Boots, Paranoid, War Pigs, and even the songs that didn't really stick with me are hard to argue against, like the opening to Electric Funeral, but put it all together, and...I don't know, just seems a bit too monolithic to me I guess...

IV > Master of Reality: A bit easier, there's like four songs on this album, and only Children of the Grave (the best thing Sabbath ever did) shits on the stuff on IV from anything resembling a great height...I mean the album gets a little closer once I realized that After Forever was the earlier superior original article, and St. Vitus Dance was the rewrite, but still...I'm not exactly sure which three songs are stronger: Sweet Leaf/Children/Into the Void or Supernaut/Snowblind/Cornucopia, but it doesn't matter; without these IV is still within striking distance of a sprwaling druggy masterpiece...

these = its three songs

I find it strange that vol IV isnt the canon album for you guys.

worth running this poll again?

"I find it strange that vol IV isnt the canon album for you guys."

I don't understand this at all. It's a great album, and for me has Sabbath's best song, but if you're looking at the so called "canon", at least in the US, it's undoubtedly Paranoid. I've obviously gone on ad nauseum about how I think Master of Reality is the best. Incidentally, the guys in Sabbath themselves would vote for SBS for what it's worth.

Me, I usually rely on RYM to give me some kind of indicator of an album's canonical status:

http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/black_sabbath

Paranoid leads the way in ratings, reviews and overall score. Not that that's anywhere near definitive, of course.

http://www.foreverdoomed.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=9621 what DFFD votes

I've just picked up Sabotage after years of meaning to buy it, but being put off by the cover and an unsubstantiated notion that it is a sub-par Sabbath album. And it's great. The only poor song is Supertzar.

Now I need to persuade myself to get Heaven and Hell..

how dare you? supertzar's amazing, and the best song on that album...

Heaven and Hell is awesome! Might as well go ahead and pick up The Mob Rules too. I can't believe how much I've fallen for that Dio area, great stuff.

mob rules is fuckin RUTHLESS

"...and an unsubstantiated notion that it is a sub-par Sabbath album."

I've never been aware of this "notion".

Yeah, Mob Rules fucking kills, you gotta get that.

i know loads of people who say Sabotage is their fave album.

I've never been aware of this "notion"

That's because it was my own notion. And, as I say, unsubstantiated. I dunno, maybe it's the cover alone, maybe it's my poor memory of listening to this album at friends' places as a kid -- I just got it into my head that Sabotage was a bit of a clanger. Wrong I was.

Thanks for the Mob Rules recommendation. Will give it a listen.

I'll admit the cover of Sabotage is hilariously bad. A bone-headed idea ruined by terrible execution.

yeah, it's the worst from a series of truly bizarre covers.

I will get behind any of the ozzy/dio era studio albums, personally. was recently blown away by how much I liked never say die, for example.

My eyes are always drawn to Bill Ward's red tights.

def a bold fashion choice

Ozzy's kimono was also a fine example of "out of the box" thinking. And Geezer looks like he just time-traveled in from a 1982 Eddie Money video shoot.

is there a thread for the remasters? the bonus discs are pretty dope

Bill what do you think the worst Sabbath album is

serious question

Seventh Star or Forbidden. Tyr's pretty bad too.

How about you?

Just listening to Vol4. Someone above bemoaned the lack of love for Wheels Of Confusion. I *adore* the beginning of the track, and I love its different parts, but to me all of these parts don't quite work as an ensemble: the song as a whole sounds poorly tacked together (to put it perhaps a little brutally). At one point I even think (probably wrongly) that the timing is off ("lost in the wheels of confusion"). The transitions between the different riffs somehow jar a little.

dunno I haven't heard 'em all! I haven't heard the stuff between Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and the Dio albums. I do dig Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules

"what do you think the worst Sabbath album is"

It's definitely Forbidden. But really there are no good ones that don't have Ozzy, Dio, or Ian Gillain singing. And the absurd awfulness of the others is never to do with the singer. It's just universally bad songwriting and production. The singers are all fine.

the new album is so good

so is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUkwv5yZyhA

Yeah I am really into the new record. Favorite track at the moment is still Follow the Tears. I will assuredly spin that at my Dj gig tonight. The 3-sided LP is gorgeous.

god, "Follow the Tears" is such a monster track ... really dig the bridge part, where Dio goes into "We'll be there for you / I believed and I can tell you it's not true" ... it sounds floaty and psychedelic dropped into the middle of this amazing doom track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ7EBF6IQn4

"Atom and Evil" and "Bible Black" are so good too

sabbath bloody sabbath title track 3:20--4:50 best 90 seconds of metal ever recorded

" I haven't heard the stuff between Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and the Dio albums. "

Forget what you have heard and listen to this stuff because it's great.

Too bad you feel that way about Wheels of Confusion, Duke, that's one of their best songs ever. Sounds like the fucking apocolypse on that "Lost in the Wheeels...." part.

ou-ou-ou-ou, not enuff sabotage luv-uv-uv-uv in them poll results i don't think.

I haven't heard the stuff between Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and the Dio albums.

that includes sabotage! rectify! rectify!

Sabotage is placed about right in that poll.

Sabotage's about three places lower than it should be, I'd say.

And so's Bloody Sabbath.

My personal poll of Ozzy era albums:

1) Master of Reality
2) Vol. 4
3) Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
4) Never Say Die (yes, really)
5) Sabotage
6) Black Sabbath
7) Paranoid (Yes, really)
8) Technical Ecstasy

feel free to print that out and toss darts at it.

mine would be:

black sabbath

sabotage

master of reality

paranoid

sabbath bloody sabbath

never say die

vol. 4

technical ecstacy

The four stabs / punches of guitar on "The Wizard" as Ozzy sings "never talking, just keeps walking" are fantastic.

Black Sabbath
Master of Reality
Volume IV
Sabotage
Paranoid
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath
Never Say Die
Technical Ecstacy

But god I love them all so much.

dudes, how great is this 'Never Say Die' clip ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvVwiE2U9_g

like, the band is so on fire you can hardly believe they would be on the verge of breaking up. Why break up when you can rock this hard?

(also, love Bill's neckbeard and dreads, he looks like some total refugee from No Neck Blues Band or something)

ok, maybe Ozzy was a *little* drunk .... but the performance still holds together quite nicely

Ive seen other songs from this particular show, the band is on, but Ozzy has some issues with his voice. Especially on Symptom on the Universe.

IV winning seems challopsy to me in retrospect

― d20 riot tard (M@tt He1ges0n),

that comment seems challopsy

100% with you on this one, Kerr.

Agreed.

yeah, may not be everybody's first choice ('tis mine), but to imply that so choosing is some kinda wilful warped contrarianism is just dopey.

maybe it's just cuz my vinyl copy of IV is so scratched and thin-sounding, but voting it as the best over what came before is kinda mystifying to me

Pick up one of the numerous remastered versions, you won't be sorry. The groove on Tommmorow's Dream feels like your brain is slowly being melted from within.

Challops would be picking Tyr as the best, not Vol. IV. Also this is crap: "None of them, I don't like Black Sabbath"

Herm, is the thread starter you? Is that an old handle?

yeah tis me, i think that was my 2nd or 3rd handle

usually some variation of pfunboy,the jokey krautrock name came much later, but i ended up sticking with it when i forgot my old pw

i hope master of reality gets voted alltime heaviest album.

as do I, sir. that was my vote.

that would be great, a poll on heaviest ever album, do it bill magill!

im assuming that he meant the poll that you're currently conducting, Herm. I dont have the patience, the time or the technical skills to run a poll, plus my efforts would probably pale in comparison to yours.

i dont mean an email poll, just do an ordinary ILM poll. Ask for nominations on a thread , then poll them.

i'm not gonna say voting for 4 is challopsy because I like paranoid even less than 4, which sounds pretty challopsy. Probably would vote for Master Of Reality and SBS (maybe even the first) over them.

I dont think not voting for Paranoid is challopsy, its just that those are the only songs you really hear on radio and/or everybody knows. So you almost get sick of them. Still, it has Hand of Doom that gets no airplay, but is awesome.

Yeah it's not worthless, but between "Iron Man" (only Sabbath hit I'm truly tired of) and some draggier moments its not remotely my platter of choice.

I rank them thusly (not that anyone particularly cares):

Black Sabbath > Master of Reality > Sabbath Bloody Sabbath > Volume IV > Paranoid = Sabotage > Never Say Die > Technical Ecstacy

The first one still amazes me on a regular basis and I think gets a bit overlooked.

Is it worth checking out Die and TE? Don't expect them to hold up to the others but are they at least interesting?

I think so. They're pretty decent late 70s hard rock records, but they do pale when compared to what the band did before.

I personally love Never Say Die, and voted it top 10 in Herm's poll. There is a great thread about it on ILM. Check the thread out and you will be buying/downloading it immediately after reading it.

Here it is:

Black Sabbath - Never Say Die!

Only 3 people who voted have heard Heaven & Hell?

in the "Paranoid" riff, there seems to be an errant major key note that pops up at the end of the chorus riff. wtf is that? it's been bugging me for fucking years

You really can't go wrong with Sabbath all the way through Live Evil.

"If you listen to fools the Mob Rules"

Just listening to Vol.4 now. I love it, but there is an inconsistency in sound on the album that annoys me. Different bits of tape being spliced together, I don't know. The volume of the album fluctuates badly. This makes it feel cobbled together in a bad way. I'm listening to the recent remastered CD. Is there a more balanced edition of this album??

That later era of the Ozzy Black Sabbath is kinda 'why spend money on a producer when we can spend it on drugs'. Page took producer rights on the Led Zep records, but he usually had a ringer working the board in all of their records that was killer producer in their own right like Glyn Johns, Andy Johns, Eddie Kramer, Ron Nevison etc. working on the record.

I think a big 'What If' moment of 70s/80s heavy metal is what would have happened if Martin Birch would have produced Born Again. I think if that record had the same production as the two Dio albums, it might have been a bigger hit and the Gillian era perhaps would have had a second act.

To me, I think Martin Birch probably was the best producer/engineer of all the early hard rock and metal.

this is totally Master of Reality btw

well, yeah

I feel like MoR is the album that probably most influenced the copycat stoner acts, as the template is mostly fully formed on that one. though some days the s/t is my fav - I've been known to rock "The Wizard" at karaoke night

probably most influenced the copycat stoner acts, as the template is mostly fully formed on that one.

also it's the first album where tony and geezer downtuned their axes, according to tony's autobio

master of reality is incredible. i swear i get a contact high every time i hear 'sweet leaf'. there is not a better soundtrack in existence for lifting weights.

are you bill mcgill

Paranoid. The guitarwork in that album predicts EVERYTHING, from Celtic Frost to NWOBHM (in some slippery way). MoR is heavier but I just don't think it has as much in the way of ideas. And I could go without almost all the gear-fetishist stoner doom it inspired anyway

past lives is my #1 sab album

"we love you!"

COOOO-CAINE!!!

vol iv is my favourite album but master of reality has 'into the void', which is heavy as fuck and is my favourite single sabbath track

I have MoR on the original Vertigo pressing, which has this amazing optical illusion label:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F4nvhlb7Og

Vol 4 has always been the hipster choice, congrats ILX

also lol at Sabotage over s/t, give me a fucking break

sometimes hipsters... can be right

https://m.popkey.co/b88f98/qdRlA_s-200x150.gif?c=popkey-web&p=nike&i=nikeunlimited-sports&l=search&f=.gif

correct ranking of first four sabbath albums is

Master of Reality
Paranoid
Vol. IV
debut

imo

^^^^ exactly otm

Though I must admit--and this is a quality Sabbath shares with the Velvets, Zeppelin, and not many others--my "favorite" of the first four is usually the one that's playing when you ask me

Sabotage is as good as those four. I might pick s/t overall.

I'd rather listen to Blizzard of Oz or Diary of Madman or Born Again or either of the two (early) Dio-era Sabbath albums than Sabotage. I think I may even prefer Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Sabotage bugs me. I like "Hole In The Sky" and "Symptom Of The Universe," but the rest is so meh and also that record (to me) sounds like shit (cocaine's a hell of a drug etc)

Sabotage sounds fine to me, but SBS has this weird drowsy effect on me. It's so muted and dull, I can never make it all the way through the album without zoning out. Maybe I just have a bad copy?

Through the re-recording scandal and the obvious "Sabs was better" elitism that's always been around, I'm thinking Blizzard of Oz is actually underrated now

I would rather listen to Sabotage & SBS than most other Sab albums these days. I've especially been listening to SBS a lot lately - lyrically it's really interesting and I love Ozzy's voice around that era.

yeah sabotage fucking rules.

Two weeks ago I posted this on Twitter:

Just reveling in how hard Bill Ward SWINGS on "Symptom of the Universe." Art Blakey would have approved.

Sabbath swinging...

https://youtu.be/UuqyRrwdBtQ?t=180

I love that riff section and would love to hear a full horn section doing it.

Master of Reality > Paranoid > Black Sabbath > Sabotage > Sabbath Bloody Sabbath > Vol. 4 >>> Never Say Die >>>>>> Technical Ecstasy.

I'd like Vol. 4 more if it wasn't for its thin and downright awful production, but as it stands its easily my least favourite of the classic run.

Who the fuck voted for Mob Rules?

i respect it

Mob Rules is a great Dio album.

Mob Rules rules

I've been loving "Never Say Die" lately, that record rules

Love that album, especially the horn rock number

They should have gone Blodwyn Pig on the bit more often

None of them, I don't like Black Sabbath 6

Wtf

I like Mob Rules better than Heaven and Hell, there's more grit in the sound and more memorable riffs, but all three Rainbow records with Dio are better than both, and so is Never Say Die.

Paranoid and Master of Reality are the only two I own mainly because I also have Symptom Of The Universe: The Original Black Sabbath 1970-1978 and that covers virtually every great track from that era.

(It’s a two-CD compilation from Rhino Records)

That's a good selection, but I need every song from those first six records.

Even "Blow On a Jug".

man SBS really got snubbed here huh

Wall of sleep is lying broken

Spiral blah blah blah blah

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is mostly too soft/pretentious for the people who like the earliest records, while the people who love that side of the band will probably pick Sabotage instead of it.

The title track is absolutely killer, but I found the rest of Mob Rules forgettable.

‘Sign of the Southern Cross’ rules and is dooomy awesome.

“turn up the night” completely rules

“Over and over” gets my vote on MR

"Over and Over" lyrically I feel very often

My MR sequencing starts at the end and moves backward

Love Ronnie’s growl on Sign

I feel like “Mob Rules” is secretly better than “Heaven & Hell” but I’m not fucking checking

I like the faster numbers with Ronnie but I want to draw everyone’s attention to the fact that 3 separate and apparently real human beings voted for “Heaven and Hell” in this poll. You can write off 1 vote for “Mob Rules,” but 3 for “Heaven and Hell”? It’s a solid record but if that’s the best Black Sabbath album then “Load” must be the best Metallica album.

No becuz H&H is a solid record, but Load is a solid

H & H is great

"Great" may be stretching it.

It was a pleasant surprise when it came out, I do remember that.

"Die Young", "Neon Knights", the title track all on the same album, i mean if that ain't great then

The two Dio Sabbath albums are way better than the last couple with Ozzy and production wise are maybe the best sounding records they did.

Dio version of NIB on Live Evil is awesome too.

All the Dio albums are great, including The Devil You Know (released as Heaven & Hell to avoid the wrath of Sharon).

Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules are classics, full stop. Ronnie and Tony both finding another gear creatively. Metal is notorious for its shocking comebacks, and this had to have been its first, or at least side by side with Ozzy.

And in the wake of leaving Rainbow this really catapulted Dio's own career. The man would dominate American heavy metal from 1980 to 87 or so, and it started with these two records.

That may be stretching the definition of "classic" a bit too far out of shape.

Dio was pretty trump tight from Elf through around Sacred Heart

I saw him on the first Dio tour, he had a great stage presence, especially for such a little dude.

This is a pretty good run of LPs for about anyone in hard rock/heavy metal across a decade.

Rainbow
Rising
Long Live Rock and Roll
Heaven and Hell
Mob Rules
Live Evil
Holy Diver
The Last In Line

I was a bit too young, but I was regaled by a few heads about seeing Dio fronted Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult during the 'Black and Blue' tour.

I'd figure that was a heck of a show.

I don't like "Heaven and Hell" (the song) because I don't listen to Black Sabbath to hear mid-tempo one note basslines that go DUN duh duh DUN duh duh DUN duh duh DUN. Save that for Foreigner or Survivor.

The biggest problem with Mob Rules is the absence of Bill Ward.

I don't like "Heaven and Hell" (the song) because I don't listen to Black Sabbath to hear mid-tempo one note basslines that go DUN duh duh DUN duh duh DUN duh duh DUN. Save that for Foreigner or Survivor.

"Children of the Grave" is fast, not mid-tempo!

I like Appice fine on MR though I do miss Ward’s cringey attempts at swing

turn up the night: awesome
voodoo: awesome
sign of the southern cross: unreasonably awesome
e5150: awesome transition track, sabbath arguably unequalled in transition track excellence
the mob rules: awesome
country girl: awesome
slipping away: this is one of those tracks that makes you thankful for vinny appice. awesome
falling off the edge of the world: maybe the most awesome thing about this album is how much metallica obviously loves it. one of my top ten sabbath tracks
over and over: so fucking awesome