latepassapedia: records that were light years better the ones indie dudes eventually endorsed as classics

The Bug - Pressure
MF Doom - Operation Doomsday
The-Dream - Love Hate
Fucked Up - Hidden World

non-indie genre records itt only

the flaming lips - clouds taste metallic (psych-punk innit)

lil wayne - tha carter II

J0rdan gets it.

LJ, i don't have the patience for your hair-splitting tomfoolery today

Baroness - The Red Album
Pig Destroyer - Terrifyer

wha, just trying to answer the qn

guess they're kinda indie - certainly weren't 'embraced by indie dudes' when that album came out tho

ugk - ridin dirty / super tight...

^yes

LJ, yeah, being on Alternative Nation and 120 Minutes every five seconds certainly wasn't a place to get embraced by indie dudes in the 90s. stfu

clipse - lord willin

^^the most pertinent

whatever, they're still an applicable case. your first-response qualifier is the only ridiculous nitpickery itt

Clipse - Lord Willin'

lol just about to post that

Mastodon - Leviathan

licensed to ill [/challops]

no challops itt, just stone cold facts plz

whiney leviathan was the one where i first heard of mastodon, got an 8.5 on p-fork so maybe the one before that?

I thought Leviathan was the indie-approved Mastodon disc. And in that case they were right - Remission is heavy for the sake of heavy and bores the crap out of me.

Blood Mountain got an 8.7... But I don't know exactly which is holding up as classic in the indie noob canon tho

this one would definitely be stretching "light years ahead" but there are def people that would make an argument for *choose favorite jay-z record before 'the blueprint'*

missy elliot - supa dupa fly / da real world

nah

(if you stretch the premise of this thread to include 'trapped in the closet' despite it not being an actual album...)

r. kelly - chocolate factory / tp-2.com

This premise is retarded and that's why lj doesn't get it. It took maybe until 2003 or 2004 for op doomsday to heat up, but that fucked up record, the dream, lord willin, carter ii, that's all just bullshit, but have fun imagining what you were in on the ground floor for goon dudes

yeah this thread is basically "i liked their early 7 inches better: the poll"

this thread is even more indie than the flaming lips

lol, peacocks, if you think—even with 20/20 hindsight—that Hell Hath is better than Lord Willin then stop having opinions on rap entirely

yowhiney battles the pink peacocks

lord willin is the only one here that seems emphatic

yeah this thread is basically "i liked their early 7 inches better: the poll"

― smang a goon (get it on) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:57 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

notice that none of the serious metal or rap or R&B dudes are arguing with most of these

probably bcuz they care abt music, and not crappy opinions abt music

i meant the whole vibe of it is the same, the whole attitude, like what's the point? pointing out that operation doomsday is better than other mf doom shit? yay.

peaccoks are you saying that wayne/dream/clipse records AREN'T better than the ones that blew them up in indie circles or are you saying that indie ppl were always up on these artists to begin with

ha but i'm obv not a "serious dude" so what do i know? carry on.

tigermilk - belle and sebastian
simple pleasures - tindersticks
amber - autechre

probably bcuz they care abt music, and not crappy opinions abt music

― Lamp, Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:02 PM (36 seconds ago) Bookmark

lol this is coming from the guy who posts on ilm only about what other posters are saying about music

artists where indie ppl were right on it

- cam'ron
- t.i.
- kanye west

modern life is rubbish - blur

the bends

would like some electronic opinions from the electronic d00ds

guys, genre music only, no indie opinions thx

electr-o-pura - yo la tengo

miles davis - bitches brew

pfork was covering wayne by carter 2 iirc

and i didn't know the-dream had even blown up in the indie sphere yet when did that happen

omar and helg are doing something beautiful

pfork was covering wayne by carter 2 iirc

i don't think that record made a year end list tho

beethovan's 4th

SunnO))) - Flight Of The Behemoth

I was saying that indies were up on those records. You guys should stick to gchat for stuff like this.

you should stick to dchat, where the d stands for my dick

brilliantly, whiney has chosen one of ILM's few female posters to say that to

thread enters stratosphere

peacocks, why u mad

lol this is coming from the guy who posts on ilm only about what other posters are saying about music

haha is this really what u think???

fennesz - hotel paral.el

Jordan grow a little self awareness with your nerdy year end list baseball stats tendency.

i think j0rdan is more crippingly self-aware than anyone on ilx save myself and markers

i think that 'carter II' is flimsiest of all of these because wayne's critical profile in that period became pretty fluid between all the mixtapes & what not

dream & clipse are pretty inarguable tho

Jordan grow a little self awareness with your nerdy year end list baseball stats tendency.

― peacocks, Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:13 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

i don't even know what this means

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/21/25781277_0501861785_o.jpg

don't really get how a 'crippingly self-aware' whiney manages to get out of bed in the morning n/m post threads like this on ilx...

on ilx of all places

haha touché

let me just say shame on a Pitchfork for including 3 of Brian Eno's awful pop albums in their top albums of the '70s list (and the David Byrne collaboration in their '80s list) when Music for Airports and On Land and Thursday Afternoon are on a whole 'nother level. and no fucking way does Another Green World deserve their 9.8 rating.

let me also say I HATE DRAMA & I don't care who started it, god.

btw mastodon got good again w/ crack the skye

no

whiney, can you tell us who is and isn't an indie dude? I think more people would like to participate in this thread, but they are concerned about not doing it right.

btw btw btw btw xasthur is not a good answer either coz subliminal genocide is easily his best, kthx

lol thinking of 'massive counter-examples' is kinda more fun

defective epitaph is also brilliant but that's post-SG. by then there was no saving scott conner. behind the corpsepaint he was...indie

sara, indie dudes (self-indentified or otherwise) can post all over this thread. I'm just saying it's not the thread to post about Yo La Tengo

Crack the Skye is a fucking monster album. Love it. Oh, here's another:

High On Fire, The Art of Self Defense

yeah, but who are "indie dudes"? Like, how am I supposed to know what records they endorse as classics so I can post about their mediocre taste and judgment?

art of pretend semantics

seriously Whiney, I don't know. I'm not indie or a dude, and my name is Sarah btw.

yeah, but who are "indie dudes"? Like, how am I supposed to know what records they endorse as classics so I can post about their mediocre taste and judgment?

check their twitter feeds?

OAKLAND

do their twitter feeds all say #indiedude on them? what if i accidentally check the twitter feed of a non-indie dude?

a preening cassette-hoaring holier-than-thou trend-hopping chillwave enthusiast like Lamp is exhibit A, probably

lol, so much trolling itt

yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

like are we talking about organs of canon formation like Pitchfork or something, or the endorsements of individual indie dudes?

nmdh - on rmde island

lol @ the dude who started a thread to showcase how ahead of the curve he is accusing me of 'preening'

i was total latepass on Love Hate

lol @ anyone who legitimately brags about their top 10 of the year being all "limited edition cassete releases" accusing me of showcasing how ahead of the curve I am.

if every record was instantly endorsed as a classic, wouldn't that solve the problem?

lol lamp you did give a ton of points on my alt-90s poll to an album that appears on the internet literally 2 or 3 times

thread is a classic

maybe it's fucken good tho, burn us all a copy imo

was that the poll that the Space Jam soundtrack won because plax gave it 199 points on his ballot?

hahahahaha

nah shiina ringo (sp?) won it iirc coz someone gave it 200

space jam came second tho. otm.

lol - if I'd voted, the best 90s record would have been shiina ringo tied with the Luttenbachers' Destroy All Music.

lol @ anyone who legitimately brags about their top 10 of the year being all "limited edition cassete releases" accusing me of showcasing how ahead of the curve I am.

p sure i was just 'legitimately' curious how someone who cares abt both kanye & keith fullerton whitman reconciled that on their eoy lists but i guess i shouldnt forget its impossible to engage u civilly

Lamp, i'll extend the olive branch if you want to have a civil convo. what's yer question?

does Thurston Moore qualify as an indie dude? Can we use his endorsements as a foil?

s/indie dude/rock critic

I don't think some of these count because general recognition != "this is a classic". Some of these are just "indie press did not cover first album, covered second or later album after popular consensus led them to that musician."

Pretty sure people were all over that first Clipse album, or at least the ilm crowd was.

yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo yo la tengo

― S'morgy (rip van wanko), Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:40 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I hope everyone else is singing this to the tune of 'Black and Yellow' too.

hah

lol, google chrome now thinks this page is in spanish and asks if I want to translate it

what's yer question?

oh lol on w/e IMPORTANT LIST THREAD it was that i brought up listening to/liking small run cassette releases i asked u how obscure/difficult to hear/lmtd run a release has to be before you wouldnt consider mentioning it in your own personal best of the year. & im p sure i only bragged on my 'cool' taste in music as part of that discussion...

i guess my sincere qn w/r/t to this thread wld be why (or i guess even if) u think it matters whether the nebulous 'indie crowd' cannonizes the 'wrong' clipse album given how ppl consume music now anyways

what a horribly enlightening "thread"

xpost - Well it doesn't really MATTER, technically. But I think ILX is one place where many people are professional, part-time or hobbyist critics/bloggers etc. And some times its interesting to talk about how sausages get made, y'know?

how sausage parties get made

(if you stretch the premise of this thread to include 'trapped in the closet' despite it not being an actual album...)

r. kelly - chocolate factory / tp-2.com

― lilwayne.quizrewards4u.com (J0rdan S.), Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:40 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

in what world is "Trapped In The Closet" R. Kelly's widely endorsed classic? and i mean...i don't prefer the '90s stuff to his '00s stuff but if anything 12 Play is the classic that "Ignition" era fans sleep on.

i have trapped in the closet on 12 cassettes, ecstatic peace put it out

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/stevin.gif

Why isn't this thread funny like the one about Bombay 2: Electric Vindaloo? Very disappointing stuff Whiney.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppv7ujKeHS0

Ghostface - Supreme Clientele
David Banner - MTA and MTA2

Albums people still waiting to pick up their latepass:

Juvenile - Reality Check

2 of OP are rong imo

thread is some smuggy-smug bullshit. fuck it & fuck you whiney for starting it (gently and w the sweetest love, of course)

i'm fuxxor as fuck, and iirc, the people of my tribe caught this shit right off the bat:

MF Doom - Operation Doomsday
Fucked Up - Hidden World
Lil Wayne - Tha Carter II
Baroness - The Red Album
Pig Destroyer - Terrifyer
Clipse - Lord Willin
Mastodon - Leviathan
Ghostface - Supreme Clientele

tell you the truth, this seems more like a list of records that indies glommed onto than one of secret shit they missed while the cool kids were exchanging high fives on planet future.

oh wait, no it doesn't. it seems like indie nerds working out their indie guilt by shitting on other indie nerds. awesome.

maybe u can make a blog/book out of it. records white people like.

http://www.ssplprints.com/lowres/43/main/33/111929.jpg

it's called "brand maintenance"

so glad i'm not a serious dude

I know Boris fans who would say Akuma No Uta, but I dunno. Pink is pretty great.

oh wait, no it doesn't. it seems like indie nerds working out their indie guilt by shitting on other indie nerds. awesome.

― normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:26 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol tell em why you mad

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/hamlet-queue-415x275.jpg

Albums people still waiting to pick up their latepass:

Juvenile - Reality Check

― sammy bagels (a hoy hoy), Sunday, January 30, 2011 3:41 PM (56 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

to the extent that Reality Check was praised it was probably partly by people who need a latepass on 400 Degreez or even Juve The Great

Boris has so many good records

okay, touche, i am serious dude getting all butthurt. that's kinda my thing. but man, i am SO fucking sick of indies and hipsters lolling at indies and hipsters, acting like their super hipster indie shit don't stink. it's like when goth kids claim not to be goth in one breath and in the next tell you why those kids over there "aren't really gothic." gah, makes me wanna kill.

flight of the behemoth is such a perfect example. if you wore out a tape of the grimmrobe demos or snagged a prerelease copy of 00 void off anderson, then sure, you get a bonus plaque. otherwise, you're just in there with the pack, picking up on shit as it picks up fans.

lol this thread reminds me of some *insightful opinions* i was having today re the concept of "indie guilt." Kindof occurs to me that other genres dont really have this problem where they disown the genre they are fans of as being for lamewads (i mean there is in-genre fighting and the resulting factioning of like backpacker lame-os and like how ppl from europe dont understand the soul of disco or w/e).

I feel like indie is always really interested in neoromantic "year zero" narratives which is like a hangover from punk or something and maybe as a consequence of its magpie attitude to other genres, indie ppl seem to try and get some of this razed earth frission (via personal brand makeover) by jumping on board other genres. and also bc of the kind of territorial pissing that we saw on the the-dream thread, ppl naturally think that "being there first" w/ music makes them realer fans (and obv. that kind of authenticity is gonna be important to anybody whos trying not to look like they were really into grizzly bear a couple weeks ago) and i think the interaction b/w these two characteristics one of gen. music nerds and one more spec. of indie fans is gonna make threads like this a dishearteningly inevitable reality omg blech

but yeah, boris has records. i came it @ akuma no uta. what's that make me? (an indie rocker.)

indie guilt realness fetish = rockism eating its own entrails

Pretty sure that me and j0rd attempting to have a civilized convo about some albums that fit a common pattern says way less about "indie guilt" than the people who instantly get MEGA-BUTTHURT about this thread and start opining about out psychological makeup

http://www.ssplprints.com/lowres/43/main/33/111929.jpg

― Cars and Freedom (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 30 January 2011 21:29 (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^is this guy racking out a line or

artists where indie ppl were right on it

- t.i.

― lilwayne.quizrewards4u.com (J0rdan S.), Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:04 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

waht

like all that shit about flag-planting and "I WAS THERE FIRST" and our "ground-level" hipness is stuff other people are projecting on to this thread.

i think this could have been posed in a less INDIE INTERNAL DEBATE/WARFARE way, like, 'critics were late on these artists,' in a way that doesnt exclude like rap critics or whatever

do you have any good examples?

trynna dice us up into little groups

i dont give a shit when 'indie kids' got up on something but i am kind of interested in when critical discourse comes around to come artists & what moves those artists have to make to get that attention

cool, do you have any good examples?

three-6 mafia

Pretty sure that me and j0rd attempting to have a civilized convo about some albums that fit a common pattern says way less about "indie guilt" than the people who instantly get MEGA-BUTTHURT about this thread and start opining about out psychological makeup

― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 9:57 PM (4 minutes ago)

lol i wasnt getting butthurt at all but this is crazy disingenuous given the thread title was this changed afterwards or what bc i mean i only got here recently i cant claim i was here at the beginning.

This thread isn't about indie guilt.

The only real difference with "indie dudes" vis a vis dudes of any other genre is that indie dudes are confident they know what the best thing is in every genre. That's not because of "razed earth frission" or "year zero narratives" really (though sometimes it can involve those things), it's because the indie sensibility is much less tenuously tied to any particular sound or style.

Also "indie kids" and "critical discourse" are so overlapping as to be almost interchangeable.

Which is why this thread can function, whereas it'd be a lot harder to talk about "records that were light years better than the ones hip hop dudes eventually endorsed as classics" - if there is a rap canon of rock classics it's certainly much less well-known and much less widely articulated and disseminated.

i'm not really peeved and have nothing against you personally, whiney, but this thread is a snub, straight up. worse, there's a smugness about its positioning, re: "indie dudes." plus it's such an easy and tired target. make a parallel thread about rock records that hip hop heads were comically late in catching onto. that's be great.

yeah if only rap critics were dominating the critical discourse

that's seriously on some "start a WHITE HISTORY MONTH thread"

#9. The National - "Bloodbuzz, Ohio"
#9. The National - "Bloodbuzz, Ohio"
#9. The National - "Bloodbuzz, Ohio"
#9. The National - "Bloodbuzz, Ohio"
#9. The National - "Bloodbuzz, Ohio"
#9. The National - "Bloodbuzz, Ohio"

indie dudes are confident they know what the best thing is in every genre.

Also "indie kids" and "critical discourse" are so overlapping as to be almost interchangeable.

no. indie dudes are no more guilty of this than anyone else. and it's unnecessarily hostile to phrase it that way. i would say that indies are curious about, excited about and engaged with a bunch of different genres.

if indie tastes dominate the critical discourse, that's a legit issue, but there are better ways to address it.

idk tim i disagree bc i think that it is about indie guilt because it comes from the place where guys are using their knowledge of other genres to 1-up other indie guys where going *outside* the genre and not staying w/n a lame latepass indie consensus is seen as being unhip. so staying w/n the indie canon of received info is not as authentic as going outside it.

u sound bhurt for sure

@Tim F yeah i was doing an uncharacteristic 'avoiding trolling bhurt indie heads' post

more than like "rap critics & indie critics have equal weight in the discourse" which obv i dont agree w/

whiney you are a savant at sucking any joy out of liking music, it's something to be proud of.

xpost, me too

The only real difference with "indie dudes" vis a vis dudes of any other genre is that indie dudes are confident they know what the best thing is in every genre.

lol u really believe this is true

like, he did kinda frame it as a one-upping thing which gets ppl all mad doggie. im w/ the general gist that critics tend to jump on late, esp when it comes to non-critic-focused music

yeah if only rap critics were dominating the critical discourse

that's seriously on some "start a WHITE HISTORY MONTH thread"

rap critics are dominating the critical discourse wr2 rap albums and the dedicated rap audience, imo. that mainstream (and often indie-friendly) critics mediate the intersection of rap and mainstream (indie-friendly) audiences seems perfectly reasonable to me.

and i'm not saying that you should start such a thread, but if we can't turn the game around like that, then there's some baggage in this thread that isn't being honestly addressed.

idk this kindof feels really similar to ppl who try to go on holidays to authentic nontouristy places because the mark of authenticity is seeing other ppl who look like them there. i mean this feels p. paradigmatic of what indie guilt is.

there isnt really a 'rap discourse' being dominated by anyone. its super-balkanized

Look, guys. Let me set some things straight here. J0rdan really called me out on my latepassness of The-Dream the other day, and I went and (re?)visted that album and realized it was great. I am happier to have that album in my life. I kind of was hoping this thread could provide more examples of these records (ie, I've never heard the first High On Fire record!) and maybe provide a guide (for others and myself) to great records overshadowed by the latepassness of the critical discourse (yes, it's dominantely indie... SHOCKAH) that often praises records that fit into a narrative or misses good genre stuff the first time around.

Yes, OBVIOUSLY, it's a snarky way of saying it. But I wish people would listen to The Bug's Pressure and Fucked Up's Hidden World because they are dope albums

deej super otm in this thread

Spiritualized, Lazer Guided Melodies

what rap discourse does exist is often hyper self conscious about the opinions of assertive indie dude critics, thus lames like 2dopeboyz having awful opinions hating anything vaguely non-traditionalist or vaguely 'positive,' or passion of the weiss being half-post-dubstep / trip hop / indie coverage & half rap

im w/ the general gist that critics tend to jump on late, esp when it comes to non-critic-focused music

― *kl0p* (deej), Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:12 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

aka, this thread is for the non-critic-focused music (aka things other than INDIE ROCK in the 00s) that got looked over. everyone stop being so fuckin wahhmbulance that i insulted the shitty clipse record

"critics aint live it they clueless theyre following your lead when they're bumping your music" - T.I.

the first part of that verse is "they criticized too $hort cuz he rapped slow / me for sellin blow and eazy e for being hardcore" so you can add them to the list

critics tend to jump on late, esp when it comes to non-critic-focused music

generalist critics are always and will always be late simply because they're trying to canvas the entire field. they're not out there in all the world's clubs watching microgenres develop, watching bands & artists in every local scene around the world come up. they might be intimately engaged with one or two niches, but they can't catch everything, so they inevitably catch up. this is fine. there's nothing wrong with it.

the only people who are ever gonna find anything lolsome abt it are weird rockists who think that their engagement with the music is somehow realer and better than everybody else's.

turquoise jeep - wifey boo

who are critics even now

i wonder if its indie guilt that makes ppl think vocalcity is better than present lover

thats my contribution btw

and nice save, whiney, but you can't give a thread a title like this and just dive in with the examples without expecting some backlash.

who are critics even now

i wonder if its indie guilt that makes ppl think vocalcity is better than present lover

thats my contribution btw

― Lamp, Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:20 PM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha. im w/ you on luomo

generalist critics are always and will always be late simply because they're trying to canvas the entire field.

Cool, we agree. Can we post some albums?

turquoise jeep - wifey boo

― Tuomagotchi (crüt), Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:19 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wait are u saying this is better than 'smang it' cuz :-/

yes

Metallica - Master of Puppets

lolling @ curtis

waht

― *kl0p* (deej), Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:58 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think 'king' is his best record

Kyuss - ...And the Circus Leaves Town

Are Meshuggah part of the 'indie-metal' canon?

trap muzik >>> king

even if u disagree saying 'indie people got it right' is kinda misleading -- its more like, indie people missed his first buzzworthy record & luckily for them he managed to top it with his next one, when they caught up

J0rdan really called me out on my latepassness of The-Dream the other day, and I went and (re?)visted that album and realized it was great. I am happier to have that album in my life. I kind of was hoping this thread could provide more examples of these records (ie, I've never heard the first High On Fire record!)

see, deej called out on my the-dream latepass, and i though he was bein a dick. but shit yeah, the art of self defense is a fucking monster.

worst thread of 2011

even if u disagree saying 'indie people got it right' is kinda misleading -- its more like, indie people missed his first buzzworthy record & luckily for them he managed to top it with his next one, when they caught up

― *kl0p* (deej), Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:31 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark

yeah i know -- i was just trying to balance the thread out

i kinda think we shd focus our energies on being otm in the future instead of worrying about how indie ppl were offtm in the past

this thread hasn't taken up that much of my energy

*shrug* have fun im going back to listening to cali rap from '96

why is it "indie dudes" and not "generalist critics"

OK, do you guys really want me to explain why I said "indie dudes" because I have a reason

Genesis - ABACAB

...what? You *said* "non indie" right?

because whiney has an inclination towards being inflammatory

'generalist critics' really like the music of 'indie dudes'

more of a cliff than an inclination

why is it "indie dudes" and not "generalist critics"

― omar little, Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:36 PM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark

that's the million dollar seven cent question

I figured it would be a good catch all to include Pitchfork, Sgum, Paste, and the review sections of a lot of the print mags which focus on indie bands instead of like Kings Of Leon and Amy Winehouse. I don't know what word I should have used. I figured it would be self-explanatory, but I was so, so, so, so wrong

because whiney has an inclination towards being inflammatory

what # is this on the list of ways that whiney is like a bad rash???

I don't know what word I should have used.

"critics"

i honestly didn't think using a seemingly self-explanatory shorthand for "publications on the web and in print that focus primarily on indie (the genre) music" would be all that inflammatory. But it's apparantly like Pauly D from Jersey Shore walking into the middle of Daddy's at happy hour and yelling "HIPSTERS!"

never under estimate the dumb shit people can get butthurt about on this site

or if you were sincere about just wanting recommendations:

"whiney"

xp - wait, so you are talking about critics and not dudes?

yes, sorry i didn;t make that clear

pitchfork isn't all dudes, cf dominique leone and jessica harvell

hen fap hen fap hahahah

btw the three posts before the jump are perfect

this thread isn't really anything anyone should get worked up or "butthurt" about though

well Dominique and I disagree about the best Magma record so:

Magma - Udu Wudu

i honestly didn't think using a seemingly self-explanatory shorthand for "publications on the web and in print that focus primarily on indie (the genre) music" would be all that inflammatory.

in isolation it wouldn't be. but if you're saying you didn't intentionally put a "lol @ indie herbs catchin up late" spin on things, then that's BS. it's not the suggestion that indie critics are indie critics that's bugging me.

louis, i'm sorry that you weren't able to throw yourself on the cross in the name of feminism in yet another thread

this thread isn't really anything anyone should get worked up or "butthurt" about though

― omar little, Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:45 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

and yet...

xxpost,

OK, yes, i put a little stank on it. It's the internet.

oh i just found it funny j

OK, yes, i put a little stank donk on it.

pitchfork isn't all dudes, cf dominique leone and jessica harvell

― omar little, Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:44 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

excelsior

that's recycled excelsiors, don't bother~

like, I get Whiney's good intentions to proselytise music he sees as underregarded; he's chosen inflammatory terms to do so and offhandedly dismissed the consensus of music-fans as fervent as he, but I don't think he's dismissing them individually

so I'm cool with the thread's vague premise (early albums that got 'lost' by critical consensus) if not some of its rhetoric. also I don't think it should be limited to 'non-indie' because that's when fights start.

Whiney, u a bro, don't get mad itt :(

contenderizer is broadly otm but is picking an otm fight against someone who isn't really its opponent

i love the smell of clusterfuck in the morning. the smell, you know, that ilx smell. smells like ... weingarten.

subway and salt-water

weingarten contenderizer. either way...

is that what your dick smells like?

dont be gross

louis OTM, but talking crazy about clouds taste metallic. the flaming lips record that gets missed is in a priest driven ambulance, and it's almost as indie as me.

if sarahel goes dark for a few minutes it's cuz she's choosing between vibrators

xp - you're the one who brought it up

that's recycled excelsiors, don't bother~

;_;

hey j0rdan, take that to dchat - lol

worst thread of 2011

― max, Sunday, January 30, 2011 5:32 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this thread is p boring as clusterfucks go

maybe you and i could work on some new beef

maybe not as bad as 'deej vs lex on nightslugs' but im sayin

I was working on an Earl Unit display name

Earl Unit - BUT

um BUTT

whiney's irl unit

at the pussy buffet

"Hidden World" was their breakthrough, I thought
"Epics In Minutes" is amazing
and Fucked Up are an indie band on Jade Tree & Matador so this thread is eating itself

sarahel, did you lend your login to Blowfly?

if i knew the name of fucked up's singer i would make a fat joke right now

pinkeye

I only heard that 'chemistry of common man' album which is awes but if I should check out the earlier stuff I will

damian abraham
do it

So hey guys how about actually listing some albums or like I donno.

Canada is basically the indiest country of them all tho, rite ;)

'chemistry of common man'

album titles r overrated anyway

THE CHEMISTRY OF THE COMMON MAN

I only heard that 'chemistry of common man' album which is awes but if I should check out the earlier stuff I will

― acoleuthic, Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:09 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thread did some good.

BUY IT NOW THE OPENING TRACK IS REALLY EXCITING AS IS 'DAYS OF LAST'

:)

"Epics In Minutes" is a compilation of their 7"s, "Baiting The Public", "Police", "Circling The Drain", all excellent

http://www.latenightwallflower.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/indie.jpg

Pissed Jeans - Shallow

^ they tell me in that other indie thread that this is not indie rock

horsepower productions - in fine style
MRI - all that glitters

miles davis - bitches brew

― smang a goon (get it on) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:08 PM Bookmark

What is the miles davis record eventually endorsed by indie dudes as a classic then? On the Corner? Jack Johnson? Silent Way? Is there really only one?

On the Corner is pretty much the one, yeah. Indie folks don't fuck with acoustic Miles, in my experience.

On the Corner is great but it's kind of the Miles record that sounds least like a Miles record. Still, I kind of thought Bitches Brew was cannon for indie dudes who dabble in jazz.

Nah, Bitches Brew is canonical Miles for Sixties rock dudes. OTC is the one for people who grew up in a post-hip hop, post-Laswell soundworld.

Down - NOLA

^ dunno, they always got a vinyl copy of Bitches Brew for sale in indie shops. think it's the canonical Miles selection for non-jazz ppl in general. OTC is go2 for yr more "discerning" indie types.

First Clutch album (can't google the name) is an even better example.

OD has one of my favorite songs of all time on it (Dead Bent) but I actually like KMD's Mr. Hood even more...

Art of Self Defense is easily one of my favorite albums of the decade.

Contendo otm re: Miles.

Indie is superior to most genres of the past 25 years, y'know, but there were some great and very underrated non-indie albums released in the first half of the 80s:

Depeche Mode: Construction Time Again
Thompson Twins: Quick Step & Sidekick
Howard Jones: Human's Lib
Alphaville: Forever Young

so you guys have been having one hell of a sunday huh

WOOT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E

i honestly didn't think using a seemingly self-explanatory shorthand for "publications on the web and in print that focus primarily on indie (the genre) music" would be all that inflammatory. But it's apparantly like Pauly D from Jersey Shore walking into the middle of Daddy's at happy hour and yelling "HIPSTERS!"

never under estimate the dumb shit people can get butthurt about on this site

― art crüt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, January 31, 2011 6:42 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

some pretty awesome faux-naivete "honest officer, I had no idea..."

seriously, though, i thought ilx took pride in setting itself from "corny indie fuxxors" instead of immediately wanting to chain themselves at the gates of the Hype Machine offices because someone said something that looks little disparaging about the fucking hivemind

\o_O/

guys, Phoenix might not be a good band

*runs away*

anyway

linkin park - meteora

seriously, though, i thought ilx took pride in setting itself from "corny indie fuxxors"

u actually meant "ilx likes to pretend it takes pride in"

yo whiney u wanna go to daddy's and eat chips and watch turner classic movies tonight or what

The-Dream - Love Hate
Fucked Up - Hidden World

― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:21 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

anyways, these are both wrong if you stick to your original "light years better" assertion instead of your softpedaled "pre-hype records worth checking out"

i think the new metal mountains record is record of the year so far but it /MIGHT/ be an indie rock record, it's hard to tell.

lmao

so are groundswell, rise rise rise or stay afraid worth checking out

8-)

nu-balearic is latepass for naked records

:p

i thought ilx took pride in setting itself from "corny indie fuxxors"

this is the bobbing turd of suck in an otherwise delightful punchbowl

fuck a poppalmoose tho

anyways, these are both wrong if you stick to your original "light years better" assertion instead of your softpedaled "pre-hype records worth checking out"

Yeah, this is the part about this thread that feels off to me. I don't buy the notion that there is a single "best" record that invalidates all other releases by some of the artists listed itt.

I feel this way about Mastodon and Spiritualized. Leviathan and Lazer Guided Melodies are both excellent, but in no way light years better than subsequent albums.

Most bands that I truly like have multiple albums that I would listen to.

i think the new metal mountains record is record of the year so far but it /MIGHT/ be an indie rock record, it's hard to tell.

Not unless the music they make all of a sudden started rocking.

is low an indie rock band? what about flying saucer attack

i'm gonna stop trolling this thread now, sorry guys

jay-z vol 3

kinda funny who whiney will go after and who he won't

J.Timb "Justified"

Okay maybe it's not "light years better," but most of the choices listed here aren't either.

i think j0rdan is more crippingly self-aware than anyone on ilx save myself and markers

― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 30 January 2011 19:14 (Yesterday) Bookmark

you really think this is true or was this just wildfire zingin? cause i feel like the opposite of this is true; to me j0rdan and al are the most shameless ilm posters ito taste

generalist critics are always and will always be late simply because they're trying to canvas the entire field. they're not out there in all the world's clubs watching microgenres develop, watching bands & artists in every local scene around the world come up. they might be intimately engaged with one or two niches, but they can't catch everything, so they inevitably catch up. this is fine. there's nothing wrong with it.

But then, I find that many critics - regardless of genre - are a bit too fast looking for the "next big thing" or whatever new trends the hipsters are into. Personally, I feel that most of my favourite acts haven't really nailed their style until around the 2nd or 3rd album. Debut albums are often a good selection of songs, given that the act has been writing them for some time before their debut, but they also tend to be a bit too purist for their own good, about nailing one particular sound or style and staying with that for the entire album. The 2nd and 3rd albums tend to be more varied in terms of styles and arrangements (like, maybe adding a few more instruments and production details to the mix, and not just doing fast songs but also the occasional ballad to vary the styles on the album).

My point? That the likes of NME, Pitchfork and surely also dance critics/DJs, sometimes tend to be a bit too quick searching for new trends and styles. Simply because debut albums are rarely the best album of acts that do actually last.
So maybe the generalist critics are the ones who get to nail the most important albums after all? At a time when those acts may already be deemed uninteresting for NME or Pitchfork because they have been around for longer than half a year?

one final lol to be had is whiney having a Ph.D in hipster studies but playing dumb at the idea that 'indie' can have so many connotations! and might be a watchword!

anyway keeping with the spirit, diddy - press play & prob. no way out (nb I haven't heard these two)

remission is the best mastodon album & p4k liked it off the bat i thought

can't believe I waited so long to click on this thread, this is something of a masterpiece

Baroness - The Red Album
Pig Destroyer - Terrifyer

― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:27 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i'm just here to say that these choices are incorrect

nick drake - time has told me
quicksand - slip
opeth - orchid
massive attack - no protection
x - wild gift
enslaved - isa

against me - reinventing axl rose

=D

Yes, OBVIOUSLY, it's a snarky way of saying it. But I wish people would listen to The Bug's Pressure . . . because (it is a) dope album

totally true, but i still think london-zoo is better.

artists where indie ppl were right on it

- cam'ron
- t.i.
- kanye west

― lilwayne.quizrewards4u.com (J0rdan S.), Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:04 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

pshhhhhh Trap Muzik is still Tip's best album and Diplomatic Immunity and Cam shit before that is all underrated by herbs that jumped on the bandwagon later

i have always been up on Tip, and I would def say King is hands down best.

Killa Cam, like every album is a "7" across the fucking board and it's total NOSD to pick faves

yeah i think jordan's def in the minority thinking king > trap muzik

both are excellent obv

xp well then

'diplomatic immunity' is probably underrated but 'purple haze' is still the best dipset album -- 'come home with me' is aight aside from the singles

most Cam albums are 7s sure but Diplomatic Immunity is an 8

Confessions Of Fire - 7
SDE - 7
Come Home With Me - 7
Purple Haze - 7
Killa Season - ???
Crime Pays - 7

Purple Haze was so the beginning of the end but so many people see it as the beginning period

Purple Haze was so the beginning of the end but so many people herbs see it as the beginning period

thanks that was so necessary since i used the same word to describe the same people 6 posts up great work

Purple Haze was so the beginning of the end but so many people see it as the beginning period

― some dude, Monday, January 31, 2011 12:37 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

ha -- where is this point for wayne

drought 3 right?

anyway keeping with the spirit, diddy - press play & prob. no way out (nb I haven't heard these two)

― based god kwassa kwassa (dayo), Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:15 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

im not sure most critics beyond ilxor are rlly into the new one judging by its pazz n jop votes, and there are def a bunch of rap critics who will ride for 'no way out'

i dont know how ppl can think 'king' is better than 'trap muzik'

also press play is not the better album

thanks that was so necessary since i used the same word to describe the same people 6 posts up great work

― some dude, Monday, January 31, 2011 12:39 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i wish there was some gif of cam'ron to adequately express how funny it is that you are mad

also press play is not the better album

― lilwayne.quizrewards4u.com (J0rdan S.), Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

agreed, based on the 'press play' cover art i remember hoping it would be a lot more like what the dirty money record ended up sounding like

liking 'king' over 'trap muzik' is like thinking 'the blueprint' is the best jay-z album right?

i dont get the parallel there. king is a dope record & a good way to get out of the trap (lol) of moving off of an album as good as trap muzik which sunk half of 'urban legend' -- he was smart to mix it up w/ just blaze & shit like that ... but trap muzik spoke about his world & his outlook as definitively as a record can

well... i guess i meant more from the perspective of 'king' & 'blueprint' being both artists' critical coronation albums & also from a pop perspective both records built on chart success & opened w/ both artists biggest single to date

i wish there was some gif of cam'ron to adequately express how funny it is that you are mad

― art crüt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, January 31, 2011 5:42 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

irl lol

'izzo' wasnt bigger than 'hard knock life' was it?

i mean in the grand scheme of thing it's kinda splitting hairs but 'izzo' was jay's first ever top 10 hit

it def felt like the biggest jay record ever to me at that point but i was also 13

huh 'hard knock life' was huge btw ... that was his pop crossover moment

no i know -- so was 'bring em out' & 'rubberband man'

hard knock life was v. huge, same w/ can I get a...? (lol jah rule)

is weezy really in an irreversible slide downwards?

i dunno but i feel like each new record/tape he puts out just makes carter ii sound better

Did a ctrl-f for Aquemini, sad I didn't see it here already. Anyway, Aquemini.

By Outkast.

I first heard about Aquemini in SPIN magazine

(when it came out)

Well, in the UK they had pretty much no profile with indiepeople 'til Stankonia.

Dubnosbasswithmyheadman by Underworld.
In A Silent way by Miles Davis, if that counts (Bitches Brew selling 300,000 copies to rock-friendly people, IASW being the bretter record).

What about where indiepeople get it wrong the OTHER way around; i.e. all praise an album when the one that followed is better? Cos I'm always miffed that indiepeople praise Tago Mago over Ege Bamyasi.

always forget about the transatlantic divide in existence...

I think the EB > TM retcon has only been in effect for a few years--my impression is that Tago Mago has been considered the essential 'must-get' one for a long time (since Krautrocksampler? never read it, but seems like that's the Bible to indie appreciation of Krautrock)(but if you read the first the first EOY list on NME--1974--there are like 3 Can records in the Top 60)

Feel like there are too many divergent takes on the Can discog for a rock solid narrative to really form.

also
is weezy really in an irreversible slide downwards?

apparently there's a whole thread devoted to this debate. Duh.

xxxp was aquemini really ignored by rock/generalist critics at the time? the reputation it has now can't all have been retroactively applied can it

tuieruhggapsdz

sorry, just fell asleep on keyboard there

Crits were ready to put classic status on Speakerboxxx/Love Below, but I think they've since pedaled that one back

i'd have picked ATLiens for this thread but i think it fails the lightyears clause since aquemini is good

Most of the picks on this thread fail the light years clause.

true

it's almost as if hyperbole were used in a thread title on the internet

any mentions of miles davis itt are eye roll-y

kind of blue is better than in silent way

beethovan's 4th

― smang a goon (get it on) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 30 January 2011 19:10 (Yesterday) Bookmark

^ this was a beautiful post

tuieruhggapsdz

― history mayne, Monday, January 31, 2011 10:42 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

sorry, just fell asleep on keyboard there

― history mayne, Monday, January 31, 2011 10:42 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark

A+++

secret shit they missed while the cool kids were exchanging high fives on planet future

thread is reprehensible obv but this ^ should be new ilm board descrip

clicked hoping this would be a great thread, lasted about 10 posts before scrolling past everything quickly & smdh the whole way. btw the bug's pressure is a great record but the critics are right (even if they were also late)-- london zoo is leagues better

ed 3 on the money; I wz thinking "high fives on planet future" as a possible new sn

high suggestbans on planet weingarten

Nostalgia, Ultra

i like it when you sleep, for you are so beautiful yet so unaware of it

it doesn't really fit the "light years better" qualifier but i couldn't resist lol

very few of these examples will truly fit the "light years better" qualifier (imo), but it's still a good thread idea, shout out to WGW for linking to it.

Does the phenomenon of revisionist hipster classics still exist in any strength? It seems like streaming services have lessened the weight of particular reissues.

Neil Young - Landing On Water
Bob Dylan - Under a Blood Red Sky
David Bowie - Never Let Me Down

Landing on Water rather than which record?

Beyoncé, 4

Also the first Kacey Musgraves album

this is like the bizarro New Jersey or something, right?

Orbus Terrarum

Beyoncé, 4

― 5th Ward Weeaboo (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, November 29, 2018 1:36 PM (one hour ago)

beyonce, b'day

whilst kacey m should have been receiving plaudits from the first record on... it's definitely debatable whether the first record (which is amazing) is light years better than this year's LP

Miranda Lambert- Kerosene

I'd say Amerie's All I Have except that IIRC it was less the follow-up album as a whole that was endorsed as a classic than it was "1 Thing" specifically. Similar issue with Kelis' Kaleidoscope versus "Milkshake"/Tasty.

I was thinking about whether this happens a lot in dance / electronic music and it seems actually not very common? I suspect because typically there's usually such a run-up to actual full length albums by artists in that field that, typically, by the time the debut album actually comes out, it's either already a disappointment vis a vis the artist's earlier work or, if it's any good, the portion of the music crit community that pays any attention to dance music at all is fairly well-placed to endorse it as a classic pretty quickly, or it's a bit of both of those things.

Against that, the first/best actual example I can think of is probably Isolee's Rest versus Wearemonster.

thread premise is decent but I'm not sure why indie rock should be excluded (and yes also the lightyears is prob unnecessary hyperbole) so anyway:

Julien Baker - Sprained Ankle
Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago

*HANDS UP THREAD POLICE*

the Bon Iver album was absurdly highly acclaimed by critics. It's the cornerstone of his foundation myth

nope it was overlooked the year it was released and then a sleeper hit next year, but p4k put the disappointing follow up in the #1 spot on their aoy list

no indie rock itt pls respect thread rules

aight but just out of curiosity are the thread rules completely idiosyncratic or is there a reason why relatively underrated indie rock records would be less interesting than rap records?

since classic rock is apparently not disqualified: Revolver

I was thinking about whether this happens a lot in dance / electronic music and it seems actually not very common?

It mostly happens in reverse, everyone is desperate to jump on the first record and the second is often dismissed as being predictable by comparison, even when it's better. I'm thinking about the hosannas that greeted the first Galcher Lustwerk tape and now no one seems to give a shit when he releases an album. Also the stratospheric praise for the first Martyn album compared with the relatively muted reception for the (far superior) Ghost People.

Landing on Water rather than which record?

Ragged Glory, probably.

aight but just out of curiosity are the thread rules completely idiosyncratic or is there a reason why relatively underrated indie rock records would be less interesting than rap records?

The whole point is that a lot of indie listeners understand and listen to other genres less than standard indie rock, about the elements of the music they tend to latch onto, and how that differs from what people more immersed in the genre might latch onto. By contrast 'X indie record is overrated/underrated by indie fans' is not an especially interesting debate.

A more interesting counterpoint would be the kinds of indie rock records that rap or pop listeners tend to gravitate towards/hail as classics, but that's a different thread.

I mean it's a lame, smug concept for a thread but within that, excluding indie rock records makes sense.

A more interesting counterpoint would be the kinds of indie rock records that rap or pop listeners tend to gravitate towards/hail as classics, but that's a different thread.

― Matt DC, Friday, November 30, 2018 7:22 AM (fourteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=77&threadid=81488

you’ll never guess who started that one!

nope it was overlooked the year it was released and then a sleeper hit next year, but p4k put the disappointing follow up in the #1 spot on their aoy list

this is a weird way to look at canon construction. initial reception is often at odds to how things ultimately get sorted out. Like "Don't Tell a Soul" got a lot more attention/reviews at the time than any previous Replacements album, but nobody thinks of that as their canonical record.

Against that, the first/best actual example I can think of is probably Isolee's Rest versus Wearemonster.

― Tim F, Thursday, November 29, 2018 4:33 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wearemonster was the first thing that came to mind rereading this thread

Also probably Herbert - scale (and maybe several times going backwards)

Yeah Around The House > Bodily Functions also works.

I suppose some hardcore early fans would take it back even earlier.

There's another wrinkle to this thread that I think that Bon Iver doesn't fit, which is that the critical hosannas for the follow-up pretend or assume that people don't need a late-pass, that this X album is the classic. Rather than "we didn't get to the previous album until recently and hey isn't it amazing? Also this follow-up is very good."

I already regret getting into this but his first album was #29 on Pitchfork's 2007 EOY list. Sure they were overcompensating with their reaction to the second one, but they certainly didn't overlook the debut

Kevin I can't see the thread you're linking to but my immediate guess was the Goon Rock thread?

xpost ok but Bon Iver's top track on Spotify is from For Emma, even though that record came out in the pre-Spotify era. I think that album's reputation slightly eclipses the follow-up's. P4K eoy ranking be damned.

also P4K had For Emma at #29 on the 00s Best of Decade list, higher than most of the records that beat it on the 2007 list, which shows a rising reputation

I agree that Emma is the canonized Bon Iver album and I guess I just saw a parallel in p4k's (and many other media, it topped lotsa eoy lists) reaction to the subpar followup and then the premise of this thread

I see now that it's more about being cooler and more knowledgeable than indie fans abt jazz and hip hop so I'll just remove bookmark

Ice Cube's first few solo albums are superior to SOOC but I don't expect to see them ranking #3 in a p4k 90s list.

the rules don't really matter, and Julien Baker is an excellent call

Ice Cube's 1st two albums are far superior to The Predator but I feel like ppl always talk about that as the classic

well it was his commercial peak, so I guess it stands out for a more general audience

I see now that it's more about being cooler and more knowledgeable than indie fans abt jazz and hip hop so I'll just remove bookmark

― niels, Friday, November 30, 2018 10:28 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i get that ppl can get petty / personal about this stuff but i think there are genuinely lots of critics who are just responding to the conversation and then there are critics (and fans) who do the hard work of listening to lots of music & figuring out what people are missing out on and helping to propel that attention, and i don't really see a problem with pointing out where the illusion that 'critical consensus = quality' falls apart. I also don't see how its 'cool chasing' to make these arguments ... most ppl here are pretty invested in music & i dont think there's really that much of ppl being like "damn tim f is wearing a leather jacket & sunglasses when he posts about Herbert what a badass" going on

tim f is a badass who posts in a leather jacket and sunglasses, but not because he posts about herbert

otm

Guys I told you not to share those pics.

i think there are genuinely lots of critics who are just responding to the conversation and then there are critics (and fans) who do the hard work of listening to lots of music & figuring out what people are missing out on and helping to propel that attention, and i don't really see a problem with pointing out where the illusion that 'critical consensus = quality' falls apart.

yeah exactly, and I'd make the further point that just because hypothetical critic A misses the bus on one record that hypothetical critic B was right onto, doesn't mean their roles aren't reversed in respect of another record. I think any critic worth their salt develops a fair amount of humility about how much amazing music being made right now they are not aware of it for the simple reason that it's impossible to be on top of everything. If anything, the more music you consume the stronger that feeling becomes. For my part, I'm just following the conversation in the majority of areas of music I try to check out.

I'm not so interested in the fact that this happens and who was there first as I am in the ways that it can happen. A lot of it comes down to context, and what constellations of other contemporaneous music a record arrives within, and whether that constellation creates a broader sense of momentum that propels and incites people's curiosity.

A recurring feature of several of the suggestions in this thread is that the earlier record that didn't get as many plaudits also didn't really make a huge amount of sense within a critical context at the time of its release, whereas by the time of the follow-up there was a broader attitude of interest generated not merely by the earlier record but by other records.

Isolee is a good example here: "Beau Mot Plage" was a hit within certain house music circles, but otherwise Rest was a knotty record that wouldn't necessarily have seemed representative of anything happening within dance music that was worth talking about more broadly, unless you happened to be paying very close attention to the scene from which it emerged (nb. in June 2000 I certainly wasn't; I only checked it out the next year after Simon Reynolds said it was his album of 2000).

Whereas by 2005, anyone who paid attention to critically feted dance music at all would have been marinated in years of celebrations of microhouse-through-minimal-house, in which context WeAreMonster seemed like An Important Record.

c.f. Luomo's Vocalcity - another mid-2000 record in the same broad style as Rest that lots of people missed initially (I first heard it about a year later) but which is more in the Bon Iver mould of being afforded all those critical hosannas once people did discover it. It's interesting to consider what is the distinguishing feature here; one may be that Vocalcity, like For Emma, Long Ago, doesn't really need a surrounding context in order for its importance/singularity/etc. to be understood or made sense of, it's more in the artist-is-a-genre vein.

Clipse seems like the archetypal example of this whole idea, in part because it's hard to attribute the leap in interest for HHNF relative to Lord Willin' to anything other than changes in the way that mainstream critical attitudes towards rap had shifted between early 2003 and late 2006. The debut was hardly an obscure record, and there's not really anything about the follow-up that suggests that critics were latching onto something different to what they could have latched onto with the debut had they so chosen.

skinny love is kinda the archetypal indie song of its era so it's hard to think of that record as in any way passed over

It always bugs me that Floral Shoppe won all the awards, but Eccojams was the better record by miles - it was obvious at the time that Floral Shoppe was a kind of "consolation prize" that was in the right place at the right time, and of course nowadays vapourwave is a silly joke that has been and gone. But Eccojams has something haunting about it. It has an emotional dimension that vapourwave mostly avoided.

rap seems particularly prone to this as it can seem like a chore to go back and listen to a hip hop album that came out 3 or 4 years ago

I really prefer "Ruins" to any of the later Oneohtrix Point Never things
Beyonce "B'Day" was, in my small world anyway, the album that opened the gates of pop (broadly speaking) to me and my indie friends and everybody put away their Shins records forever
Shostakovich symphonies 5 > 10 > 4 is the consensus but I think but 4 > 10 > 5 is correct
Eno: Green > Jets > Tiger > Science is the consensus but I think Tiger > Jets > Science > Green is correct
Stereolab mk. 1 > McCarthy >> all other iterations

Also:

I say this every three weeks I feel but Fucked Up's "Epics In Minutes" is one of the best albums (compilations) I can think of and towers over "Hidden World" and everything else
(edited because I said this seven years ago already)

Does The Outsiders vs. Chief from Eric Church fit here?

I really love Give Me Back My Hometown, but Outsiders is lesser overall I think. I dunno about indie dudes I guess, but it felt at the time like all critics were showering praise on The Outsiders retroactively for Chief

It's hard to tell with a case like that, since "Springsteen" (from Chief) is the song that got him noticed by country outsiders

1989

sorry - wrong way round. taylor had 4 (better) records under her belt before 1989

I was saying that indies were up on those records. You guys should stick to gchat for stuff like this.

― peacocks, Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:10 PM (seven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you should stick to dchat, where the d stands for my dick

― url sweatshirt (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:11 PM (seven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Shostakovich symphonies 5 > 10 > 4 is the consensus but I think but 4 > 10 > 5 is correct

Stalin was a milquetoast Animal Collective fan but even he knew that the Pretty Toney Album is better than Fishscale.

Shostakovich symphonies 5 > 10 > 4 is the consensus but I think but 4 > 10 > 5 is correct

It's 14 > 10 > 15 > 13 > 4 > 1 > 8 > 9 > 5 > the rest, as far as I'm concerned.

Oooooh, no 11? No Leningrad? Wow

For The Roses - Joni Mitchell

Also yeah, Shos 11 bangs wtf

10 is really amazing, the first mvt. is perfect in every way, along with 1st mvt. Bartok Music For Strings+ it's my favourite 'unspooling' in the canon. 2nd mvt. is fun when Dudamel does it; 3rd mvt. is good jokes I guess, the DSCH thing is cheesy; 4th mvt. well idk I read that at the premiere all the starving Leningradians ran out into the street crying with joy at its conclusion but to me it just sounds like a snooze alarm that won't quit

"For The Roses" isn't "light years" ahead of "Blue" but I do think it deserves much more love than the three more-celebrated albums that followed it

Listen I like For the Roses a lot but that is a wild opinion

FTR seems entirely in Blue's shadow and appears to be a bit of a blank spot, some songs are every bit as beautiful, fraught and confessional as Blue.

The 11th Symphony is decent film music disguised as Soviet agitprop. Not a bad work by any means, but it lacks the tragic heft of his less populist pieces. I like my Shosty either morbidly despairing or caustically mocking the powers-that-be, head-on, so I tend to gravitate towards his later material. Anyway, in keeping with the thread's premise, I do agree that the 4th is a better work than the 5th (I may even prefer the 1st, overall) but it doesn't top the 10th.

Ariana Grande - Dangerous Woman >>>>> Sweetener

The new Idles seems like a pretty good example of this phenomenon.

Ariana Grande - Dangerous Woman >>>>> Sweetener

― ufo, Tuesday, December 4, 2018 8:17 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

severely otm

extREMELY otm ^

Ariana Grande, My Everything >>> dangerous woman > Sweetener

christ, of all her records, my everything?

hell yeah. now don't have me take this all the way to the "inclining" thread!

er, declining. so many threads.

jesus this thread is embarrassing plz stop