Taking sides: nu-ilm vs old-ilm

it just saddens me that you put the majority of the work into this thing and we're the ones getting all the satisfaction out of it

Basically loads of people have come from other message boards and other places and done their own thing and now there are like 2 message boards on top of each other, old-ILM and new people, and the new people seem to have completely smothered and pushed out old ILM. The thing is a lot of people seem to enjoy what it has become (I certainly don't), which is why I wouldn't delete it. I just wish they'd started their own message board instead of taking over ours.

the problem with almost *all* old ilm vs nu-ilm type args is that the oldsters are actually (almost always) basically complaining about something that THEY'RE failing to do (which loosely speaking i suppose is to make the running for their own ethos in a less quarantined space), and often also that they're secretly complaining that the things they loved to do a year ago don't really cut it for them anymore (that's to say, they're bored or fed up with *themselves* and blaming this on the inability of strangers to divert them, or dep for them, or whatever)

I get annoyed when people come to ILM and go 'oh ILM thinks this' and 'ILM thinks that', but only because in my eyes if you post to ILM you're part of it (also because they're usually dead wrong). Everything that was good about the old ILM is still there in some part, except maybe the jokey community spirit has waned a bit but that was because of the ILX split, not because of any new arrivals.

Ideally ILM is a message board where specialists and generalists can rub shoulders and learn from each other. If that isn't working then we should think of ways to change it.

get on it please....

I suppose its been a year since i started posting on here (so I'm prob a nu-ilm person) and I don't even know about old ILM or whatever. I came across it by chance and stuck around.

Unfortunately because I somehow manage to post quite a bit I can be careless, and because ILX is addictive is hard to step back. I do want to say that i try to be considerate and nice but what's perfectly reasonable for one person isn't for another, which is what happenend on that radiohead thread.

Just like to say i have learned quite a bit and i have enjoyed meeting other ILM-ers so thanks to greenspun and everybody who made it possible.

And I think the thing about oldsters having stopped doing what they used to do is that they no longer have any desire to talk to/engage with/listen to the kind of people that are here now, and doubly so if they're just going to be insulted like Mel was yesterday or I was on my Atomic Kitten thread.

(Personally I think threads like "Last 5 records you bought" inadvertently had a worse effect on ILM than the split did)

The thing is, it's all changing because ILX and by association FT have got bigger, more people are using it, its finding itself higher up Google lists etc etc.

Another thing you have to bear in mind is that if you start a thread with the word 'Radiohead', or 'Placebo' or 'Hundred Reasons' then its pretty inevitable you're going to get casual Googlers and people who are likely to be very vociferous in their defence of their favourite band. Quite simply:

---------------
| PLEASE |
| DO NOT FEED |
| THE TROLLS |
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| |
| |
| |
| |
` ` | |' '
\ \ \| | // /
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But for me, having more people using it is a GOOD thing - yes, there are more threads like the one linked to here, but equally there's been far greater DIVERSITY both in the range of posters and music discussed, and that to me is ILX's greatest strength. Over the years I've been using online forums, I've never found anything that has anywhere near the breadth and scope of ILX.

Looking at the top ten threads on ILM right now:

Hyped To Death S/D (Paul Eater)
graham, i'm calling you out. (mark p)
Daytime radio (DV)
Venetian Snares (blueski)
Say Something Negative About Postpunk (sundar subramanian)
Julian Bream: Classic Or Dud? (sundar subramanian)
I Cannot Play An Instrument and I Cannot Drive A Car (Tom)
Is Momus destroying my hearing? (Ashley Andel)
tell me a song you think i should download (gareth)
Do Not Under Any Circumstances Listen To It (J0hn Darn1lle)

That looks pretty damn healthy to me. I'm with Tom and Mark S - its up to the people with something interesting to say to say it, and that ultimately is what'll stop ILM for going down the toilet.

I just sorta read every thread as it comes and see what happens, and sometimes inspiration strikes, you can't predict it. Look at that Clash/alcopop thread -- that Dan, Mo, John Darnielle and I would get into an involved discussion on idealism vs. practicality in terms of historical movements and effects was hardly something on the table when the thread was proposed! For that reason I don't think there's either a 'split' or a sense of being smothered, more a series of contexts being presented -- and I generally do think that time has shown that most people who come here with very specific and didactic views about music will learn how to 'get' ILM's pluralistic ethos one way or another. But there will always be newcomers, and as Mark noted, we're not mindreaders.

And yes, cocoa for Graham! He deserves riches and a mansion for all the programming work anyway. :-)

On the other hand I've just read that bizarre thread about the FMBB and must conclude that ILM is indeed going down the dumper.

does being told to fuck off by someone you dont know really bother you that much? its all par for the course as far as i'm concerned, why do people get so upset about it?

I think I am nu-ILM, but I'm not sure what the cut-off point is.

I do appreciate your efforts (and those of everyone else who was involved) to save ILX. Although I've done my share of complaining, I obviously seem to get something out of it.

sorry rambled on

Graham put up many threads abt sophie on that day (which i thought it was funny, I made all sorts of negative comments on all of them) but it wasn't 'constructive' or anything.

The reason I started all those SEB threads was because you basically said we already had one SEB related thread and that's all someone like her deserves.

The thing abt that Atomic Kitten thread was you just said I luv this without saying why as some sort of intro. Personally I thought it was a bit of a joke because of that. Then when you said a track off that album gave you the 'goosebumps' I thought you were serious and so on...

Thing is: I know ILM is abt music but there's an indie thing going on here (I definetely read it as that at the start) so that atomic kitten thing might upset the indie fan (but there was no excuse for telling you to fuck off, I have never done it and never intend to).

blueski - fuck "par for the course". "the course" is teeming with swine.
graham - i'm confused about the "Last 5 Records" bit: is it because those threads bring more googlers than others? as for you not having much constructive to put in, that's nonsense.

okay i just woke up but NO ONE IS GOING ANYWHERE GODDAMMIT.

i'm not really trying to pick on you, graham - i think more than anything i was really upset by your 'delete ILM' comments on that thread. i think it's WAY off base to even talk about that. that was like a little bratty kid who doesn't want to share his toys. i think you know how much i(and everyone else) appreciate(s) all your hard work on these boards - PLEASE, no power trips!

There's some stuff about them here: pop-off tuesday

oh no!ILM is a victim of its own success! oh no!!

I agree, this is what should be done. I just think too many people here are too disinterested to bother, which is a shame.

for that thread, which is just general survey type thing this is fine surely. I was asked abt a xenakis rec i bought and i said i was going to post thoughts on it on a thread abt Xenakis (which i haven't done but i will).

& I've been meaning to say this for awhile: Graham, the new system is vast improvement. The new message alert in particular prevents a lot of misunderstandings, the ILM -> ILE click is great, and having the "contribute an answer" box on the same page of the thread is really handy. Sorry you're feeling down about ILM, but thanks nonetheless for all your hard work.

you're not the only one 'wasting' a lot of time on it, I can tell you!

you'll generate of course. i need to go back to bed.

There's a chance aswell that my growing sweariness was only on a scale with my growing passion.

I just resent "nu-ilm" being slated or criticised because it seems to piss all over any decent discussions I've had recently, and there have been a few. It's just a bit annoying to have someone come along and make a judgement on all the threads here, many of which simply don't interest them by virtue of their subject.

There's no justification for a straight up "fuck off" after you start a thread, but then again if noone answers the thread other than that it's not ILM's fault either.

There are loads of threads on ILM, and I'm not interested in most of them. That's okay. The style of post on some that I do read doesn't appeal, which is okay too. I still find, here and there, threads or debates or individual posts of extremely high interest to me, whether because they are funny or knowledgeable or intelligent or all three - and all three come together surprisingly often, to my delight. I still like it here, though I spend more time on ILE.

Question for Tom: Do you feel you [you personally] can discuss the things you want to here?

take off those rose tinted nostalgia glasses, blast off the new westbam single, and wear some cool brown clothes. it always works for me (of course, just coming in from the pub helps).

lets have a call out gareth thread instead, i'll take all y'all motherfuckers to the cemetery...

Graham: yes, actually, I think that anything I want to talk about here I can talk about here. I would be sorry if other people don't think that. I think that maybe 18 months ago I was more concerned about the replies I got than I am now. All I know is that if I hear something that thrills me I look for an ILM thread about it and if I don't find one I start/restart one. If pushed I would say that this is what everyone should be doing.

(Sometimes I am drunk and start threads and never look at them again, too. I hope someone likes them though.)

i mean in real life, if someone's being an ass, hounding you, whatebber - it's alot harder to dodge them, but this is a message board. you shouldn't need to be distressed by other people's posts. failing that, i've seen other msg boards introduce an option to ignore select posters, but exclusion also = death knell

graham, stop being so passive aggressive: i certainly don't feel about guilty not giving kiwi a roasting on that thread because a. i'd chided him on other threads for similar silliness, and b. you made no clear attempt to let ANYONE know that you were upset, or even that it wasn't you're intention to produce exactly that sort of response => some people (ie me) are completely unbothered by those kinds of posts (so i'm not going to automatically jump in on another's behalf unless they're very obviously being persistently harassed and disliking it); others — who very much dislike trollishness — are nevertheless inclined (by bitter experience) NOT to respond, because response so often makes the situation worse, most people probably didn't even see it, and some that did may well have felt there was no lasting issue, as no one was any obvious fuss (compare for example how melissa slapped down julio). i have to repeat: we are not telepathic!!!

as it happens, kiwi himself popped up somewhere a few days ago to say he pretty much only ever lurks these days anyway, so i simply don't see why you're *still* posting to this thread about this particular incident: you're a much bigger beast in the jungle than he is! You singlehandedly piloted us from collapsing planet greenspun to ilXoR!! i accept that you were upset at the time, because kiwi was being a childish prat, but as far as i'm concerned the person who has actually "stopped you talking about atomic kitten on ilm" on any permanent basis is yourself. revive the thread and talk about them!!

As for this nu/old shit...whats that all about? The "Myth of the Other" Id say. All I can say is sorry.

Please dont ban me :)

Same response to Mark S I think.

sorry if this upsets y'all's identity crisis or something, but having lurked/posted a year-plus myself I fail to see what is so FUCKING different about this as opposed to before, and if so why it FUCKING matters. I'm going to risk sounding like a real asshole here, but a lot of these types of threads (see also the "best new blogs" one) are wound-licking over NOTHING. I'm glad folks have a forum to feel sorry for themselves on en masse, but GET OVER IT.

Question for Tom: Do you feel you [you personally] can discuss the things you want to here?

Answer for Graham: Yes.

Sometimes I decide that I don't want to discuss stuff, though, I just want to say it. But a) that's why I have a website and b) neurotic that I am I've even discussed THAT on ILx at some point!

I do feel slightly bad that someone who has put so much work into this board is unhappy with the way things are going; especially since I certainly haven't done anything for ILM at the technical level, and wouldn't know how to.

(Yes, I have spent an excessive amount of time today online, but it's been a rubbish sort of day.)

It's just "Fuck off" as the only reply to a thread is a bit lame, yes?

Oh for fucks sake, of course its lame. Ive apologised, what more can you do? Self righteous fuckers the lot of you. Wish I was so perfect.

Wheres Queen G when you need him.

Graham can you please delete my IP address and ban me or whatever you do to make youself happy . Fuck me.

Chow.

Also, I think ILE would go down the dumper completely if ILM were to be deleted - the way I see it, a love of music is what unites us all, it's the one (admittedly very broad) common ground and so it's quite right it should stay at the centre of things here. Without it, it's possible that ILE really would decend into some sort of irrelevent mutual-friendly society of little relevence to new posters.

Jesus back around answer 30 or 32 it was really interesting and now look at it.

Hear hear!

That said, I'd actually argue that the board is -- for my tastes, obviously -- on an upswing: I don't know if it's just good new additions or the older "nu-ILM" people settling into a good rhythm and everyone getting to know one another, but I've been enjoying it a lot more lately. Please, though, don't anyone start any more "is ILM dying" threads: it's just really draining to see too much of this particular discussion.

hurrah!! roXoR!! ect ect!!

I think I'm one of the hated nu-ILM people, but I can say that it's seemed the same to me every since I first posted.

I thought that I this was about nu-metal but it seems to me that i stepped into a place where Doctor Who Conventionists go when no Doctor Who convention is in town.

Only, y'know...without the Coke.

you're old-ilm to me dominique

(i think this solves our dilemma)

Or, given my spotty postings and long absences, am I just a mouse crawling underneath the floorboards?

I'm one of the new boys. I know this because I googled my way in (social suicide around here huh) a few weeks ago and wrote a few antagonistic stroke mindless stroke keen like Roy posts which caused me to be systamatically ripped up by several of the rug'lars.

However, rather than being put off, I realised that I had discoverd a wonderful forum filled with wonderful people with wonderful things to say. And so I remain. Can't comment too much on old versus new ilx but I would say that what we seem to have here is a pretty vibrant stroke entertaining stroke enlightening forum. If it was even more so in the days of yore then, well, damn und blast.

Anyway, on a more personal note, if I properly hacked anyone off or anyone feels that my posts are totally for shit then I am most dreadfully sorry.

Also, I find it very unfortunate that Dave Q isn't posting threads anymore - they had become probably my most favorite thing on ILM.

This shift is irreversible whether people liked "Old ILM" or not. With the shift comes certain responsibilities, too - like thinking of the board as a 'community' and trying to be friendly to 'newcomers', neither of which the old ILM cared at all about.

(The "offputting to newcomers" argument I pretty much reject anyway. Most posters are made of sterner stuff I'd hope particularly since every internet forum since the internet began has had this exact same conversation, including many where I've been the 'newbie' and my general attitude has been 'sod that, I like it and I'm staying'.)

I haven't been sweary to anybody yet, and I think the closest I got to rudeness was my overly facetious attitude to the first Q I saw Roger F. post, but I know that I've gone crassly stomping into some threads with a HERE'S MY OPINION negative attitude, threads that maybe I should just have ignored (eg Postcard Bands) - it's just that with some -ve opinions that have burnt a hole in your mind for 20 years or so, the chance to publicly vent them is jumped on!
And often, as I tried to touch upon in a recent thread, I think music you hate can be as 'important' as music you love.

I get annoyed when people come to ILM and go 'oh ILM thinks this' and 'ILM thinks that', but only because in my eyes if you post to ILM you're part of it (also because they're usually dead wrong)

I'm probably guilty of what Tom has described there - but, when you first start trawling around these parts, you do come to thinking that there are certain attitudes which are a kind of 'ILM aesthetic' (eg, very broadly, the 'pop' over 'rock' idea, sophisticated dismissals of certain difficult-to-define ideas/attitudes which are 'naive' or CLOSE_YR_EYES_MARKS 'rockist' OPEN_EYES_AND_RELAX, an unequivocal celebration of wide-ranging eclecticism etc.)

I stumbled into this forum because I had for months already been going through a phase of obsessive re-interest in a particular musical period and its meaning to me, and googling a genre term led me here - but it has already become (disturbingly) addictive to keep reading these boards, and I really don't want anything bad to happen to them.
I have been wondering over the last couple of weeks whether I'm capable of having an interesting opinion on anything - but having just read Tom's last sentence, maybe I'll try to adopt that attitude.

should have been '....learn enough to paddle in deeper waters' or some equally inventive non-writer cliché.

I've never seen such pointed obsessiveness, opinion bashing, "ultimate decisions" (all this C/D and S/D shite), and the like -- quite the opposite of an informed, developing discussion of music. This thing should be called "I Stalk Music".

heh, we've even talked abt how 'circular' the threads get.

I enjoy talking shit but the ans would be that you never know: a common topic will be explored differently by someone new...there might some interesting things when you least expect. and then you can get into flame wars...all good fun.