TS: Pavement / Smashing Pumpkins

pavement easy

Pumpkins easily. Pavement fucking sucks

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

Pavement, but this is a pretty awful contest.

Pavement does suck, but that was their thing? and when they started not sucking they lost me, like Wowee Zowee. But the Pumpkins never were supposed to suck, but started taking themselves serious in a different way, shaved head and all. isn't there a Pavement song where they talk shit about the Smashing Pumpkins?

pavement will win this and I will never understand what awful lurks inside a nerd's mind

I love both, but ultimately I've spent a little more time listening to the Pumpkins.

The Pumpkins got better after the shaved head! Funny how some Pumpkins fans don't remember their early days, when they weren't bad at all, but probably kind of "sucked" by stadium rock terms.

I abstain.

Love em both, but I was into em at different points in my life. Smashos in my teens, pavement in my twenties. I think I have to vote pavement though. Pumpkins can sound a bit adolescent and cloying at times in retrospect.

I love Billy Corgan's obsession with the "alternative" movement, citing Pavement's reunion as "the death of the alternative dream".

Like Kiss and "Lick It Up" is the death of heavy metal.

citing Pavement's reunion as "the death of the alternative dream".

Billy, there's a place where that dream still exists as a reality.

I love Billy Corgan's obsession with the "alternative" movement, citing Pavement's reunion as "the death of the alternative dream".

― Morcheeba, simply happening. (PaulTMA), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 09:12 (7 hours ago)

Wait, whut? Why? Smashing Pumpkins reunited too didn't they?

I never understood the beef between these two bands.

I don't understand what they mean, and I could really give a fuck...

Where's the Stone Temple Pilots option?

Are they foxy to you?

pumpkins are embarrassing these days but so was the pavement reunion tour. pumpkins all the way

I've recently listened to Gish for the first time in ages. the pretty songs always make me wish they had stayed psych and became the American Bevis Frond

pavement will win this and I will never understand what awful lurks inside a nerd's mind

― homeless romantic (CaptainLorax), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 1:45 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark

otm

Pumpkins. They may have hit lower lows, but they have much higher highs.

pavement reunion gig at Brixton was one of the best nights of my life! As was the show they did supporting Sonic Youth at the same venue way back when. Dunno what that says about my life. Nothing good probably. Oh well. Pavement Is Rad!

Pumpkins, but that doesn't mean I like them much.

pumpkins 4 lyfe

Pumpkins by millions and trillions of miles, no contest.

the Pumpkins 'reunion' show I saw last year was pretty dispiriting overall, i'll give the Pavement fans a point in that column at least

Pumpkins easily. Pavement fucking sucks

― van smack, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 12:51 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark

pavement roolz, pumpkins droolz

it would be kinda a cool reality show if malkmus and corgan had to trade band members and write and record and album

haha yeah. corgan all like "no, i do not want off key moog on this song, bob! you're fired!"

corgan with westie drumming would be . . . interesting, but doesn't he do everything else himself anyway?

yeah i mean in an imaginary world where the pumpkins were still kinda of an actual band and corgan didn't play anything....

jimmy chamberlain getting all Tool drummer on a shambling malkmus song...darcy nodding out in the corner

Pumpkins are super annoying. Pavement wins by default and I do like their first 2 albums.

i was trying to remember which simpsons episode they were both in but it was sonic youth. i like song 'cherub rock' a lot, the guitars are cool.

not voting

Definitely Pumpkins. Used to think it was cheesy but this song has been haunting me the last few days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd9Ke6pSu3s

don't they both do everything else themselves?

Pavement by a mile.

pavement's hit/miss ratio is so much better.

i think i voted pumpkins just because i happened to spend all week listening to them but range life >>> anything pumpkins did

Pavement beats Billy Corgan to death with a skateboard

the pretty songs always make me wish they had stayed psych and became the American Bevis Frond

man this is so true. I like 2/3rds of Gish and maybe half of Siamese Dream, plus Starla and a couple other oddities but ugh when they tried to RAWK it was just abominable. and then there was all the goth silliness. Also one of the absolute worst live shows/acts I have ever seen. Pavement and the Pumpkins both had a weird laziness/contempt-for-their-audience thing goin on in their live shows but Malkmus was so much cleverer and funny about it. Billy came out onstage and played like a spastic, self-absorbed 13 yo and then berated the audience for not appreciating him enough. horrible.

Corgan is a flaming asshole toward everyone he ever works with. Malkmus agreed to a reunion tour he didn't need to do just to help a bro out financially. Pavement FTMFW.

otoh corgan wrote records that went platinum x10000000000 so he didn't have to be in the position to help a bro out, because his bros were rich

I sorta doubt James Iha is currently rich

or maybe he is, I dunno. did he get songwriting/publishing credits?

had the pumpkins quit after siamese dream and were billy not a tremendous asshole then . . . maybe

on some things.

also you spend all yr money on heroin and also being a dick - tough luck. other pavement bros were bros, more likely to be dudes you want to help out when they need it

pavement

i am sorry for the infinite sadness of people who do not get why

the pavement reunion show was grebt but seeing spiral was kind of sad

stevon malkie and the infinite slackness

Yeah Spiral looks like he could be everyone else's dad. Maybe not Westie.

pumpkins had the better drummer, i'll give em that

i wouldn't doubt if smashing pumpkins was a kiss-type deal where billy was the band financially and the other members were just paid employees

Well, weren't they? Corgan boasted, half sheepishly, that he played all the guitar and a lot of the bass on those early records.

yeah I thought that was the deal

The Pumpkins got better after the shaved head! Funny how some Pumpkins fans don't remember their early days, when they weren't bad at all, but probably kind of "sucked" by stadium rock terms.

this is madness

(voted Walt Mink)

I have never gotten what everybody thinks is so special about Jimmy Chamberlin's drumming. was completely surprised a few years ago to find he's entered the legions of "drum heroes" at Guitar Center, for ex.

I mean he's not bad, but I have a similar head-scratching reaction whenever a drummer praises U2's rhythm section

yeah i just wasn't 100 percent sure but that was my impression

plus obv they wouldn't get songwriting or publishing, but if he played everything than d'arcy and james wouldn't get ANY royalties right?

just the gig money then, but yeah i bet they made remarkably little for being in what was p much the biggest band on earth for a minute

(voted Walt Mink)

― O_o-O_0-o_O (jjjusten), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 6:20 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hahahahaha

now walt mink those dudes could fuckin' PLAY man

spiral looked like paul simon (now), while sm looked suitably indie rock-god-ish

i know i've said this elsewhere on ilm but jimmy chamberlain is a boring boring drummer

he's no kenny aronoff

Iha apparently has enough money to run a studio and a boutique label so I guess he isn't living out of a dumpster just yet

Pretty sure Iha has a couple songwriting credits on Mellon Collie.

stephen malkmus is a babe

pavement

i am sorry for the infinite sadness of people who do not get why

― da croupier, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 7:11 PM (32 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otm

Pumpkins easily. I still listen to Mellon Collie and Siamese Dream a lot, and I'm even a fan of that Aeroplane cash-in boxset ("Cherry"! "Tribute to Johnny"! Prety much every song on the "Tonight Tonight" single!). I still find it amazing that Billy could write like forty amazing songs in the span of two years, and nothing even remotely resembling an amazing song whatsoever for the next sixteen.

Pavement were never really my thing. I like "Summer Babe," "Stop Breathin'," "Perfume V," "Texas Never Whispers," and "In the Mouth of a Desert," but that's about it.

my dad thought pavement were some band from school's demo tape i had, and was quite shocked that they were a proper signed act.

"your mate does a good american accent... v sloppy playing, tho."

For all the abuse Pavement get for "not properly playing" or whatever, to my ears they sound closer -- in songwriting and feel -- to the studio rock I love from the seventies than the Pumpkins.

no, true. i love them. there's a clip on a documentary were some german journalist basically tells them that. "you are brinking ze rock back!"

pavement had one song where you can actually feel something: "In the Mouth a Desert". smashing pumpkins has at the very least: "1979", "tonight" and "thirty-three". not even their rock songs but at least they are memorable

Pavement was a decent (if still overrated act) up to and sort of including S&E (which was still decent, but god knows nothing as special as it was made out to be). After that they basically sucked. The Smashing Pumpkins always sucked.

I think the people that like pavement somehow get something out of the guy's voice. Whether they can relate to it or whatever. I don't know what

but relating to a voice can be a big cause for liking something music-wise

You're forgetting something: Billy Corgan's reedy thin whine/yelp.

Whining is '30 Seconds to Mars' and a bunch of contemporary rock. Corgan's growl sounds more like holding out a long nasalized note than whining (or something to that effect).

and his shitty middle school journal lyrics

xp

"corgan's growl"??

ultimately pavement is bro music

the further i get out from when Smashing Pumpkins were at their peak, the more i appreciate how great their best stuff was. and with each passing year, i wonder more and more why the hell i ever liked Pavement enough to own all of their albums, shit just has no use to me outside of a handful of songs that only occasionally sound good.

xp

...bros that go to coffee shops to play scrabble

hahaha

bros who go home to fuck other bros

lol

TS: smugness vs megalomania

bro life is a kaleidescope of experiences: scrabble, gay sex, preston school of industry, alcoholism, horse racing

"corgan's growl"??

― mookieproof,

corgan's howl*

he growls like a ninny. awful

"corgan's howl"

^^if this was a broadway rock opera based on the ginsberg joint, now we'd be in business!

despite all my rage i am still just a bitchy bald dude

that doesn't rhyme :-/

despite all my gold soundz i am a neutered git

despite all my rage i will not come to terms with my age

despite how i squeal i am still just a mouse in a wheel

Intoxicated by the badness
I'm in love with my lameness

we need our balls balls balls balls balls balls back right now

I like where this thread is heading

http://www.pvusd.net/schools/central_zone/rolling_hills_middle_school/images/rollinghills-sign.jpg

what about the voice of billy c

i wonder if he speaks like an ordinary guy?

I fucked him and he doesn't.

you fucked him with your pussy

kool kids never had the whine

that's not fair. pavement don't have any memorable lyrics

their lyrics also make fun of smashing pumpkins

this thread took a turn for the awesome

I/it has no function.

lorax straight tearing holes in u dudes

i loved pumpkins as a kid, never got into pavement at all. went back to siamese dream once and other than disarm which is still goth power ballad 4eva it was really clunky leaden shit

I love this clip. The end where he apologizes for his shitty singing is quite a treat. btw there are endless amounts "Pavement Shreds" youtube clips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDtZousQsME

real lols

Lorax just became one of my favourite posters

despite all my rage I am still just a latter-day saint

Pavement are the progenitors of 'ugh indie'.

pavement

i am sorry for the infinite sadness of people who do not get why

― da croupier, Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:11 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

pavement:american 1990s :: wallace stevens:american 1950s

one of my friends hates everything after S&E b/c malkmus's voice is "too pretty" or "too pop" or something, I forget exactly how he put it but either way that's a pretty dumb thing to say

1979 > pavement's entire career (which I like!)

Keep my ass-ness to yourself

(btw i know it's sorta predictable that pavement had to fall from the lofty heights of indie sacred-cow status they occupied ~10 yrs ago... but that doesn't make the hateration any more comprehensible to me)

Actually the Stevens comparison interests me. Care to elaborate?

"i hear they live in crematoria and smoke your remains" one of the best lines malkmus ever wrote. out of many, many good ones. the line about smashing pumpkins, on the other hand, one of the weakest lines he wrote.

i rate myself punkin sympathizer but this is not even close.

Pavement was a decent (if still overrated act) up to and sort of including S&E

Haha, I love/hate sentences like this one. "They were pretty good up until people got the opportunity to hear them on record!"

The-Pavement: Slant Me All Summer/Enchant Me All Winter

They were pretty good up until people got the opportunity to hear them on record!

this sums up my experience with Pavement to a T.

Actually the Stevens comparison interests me. Care to elaborate?

― uh oh i'm having an aneurysm (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, February 10, 2011 5:14 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark

1. immediate (or immediately posthumous) canonization by similar demographic (intelligent, vaguely-dissatisfied white college bros);
2. quiet, unglamorous lifestyle and public image (indie rock = resistance of 'art' as vocation?); and
3. a certain self-awareness in Malkmus' lyrics that affects me in the same way as Stevens' meta-poetic reflections

(nb i don't know all that much about wallace stevens)

lol for some reason I read Wallace Stevens as Wallace Shawn

"i hear they live in crematoria and smoke yr remains" is a line that sounds like it could be from some Modernist poet

otoh the lyrics to Gold Soundz and Cut Yr Hair (and Range Life for that matter) seems like some self-reflexive bullshit to me

((also I am thinking much more abt the last 3 or 4 albums than S&E))

excellent malkmus lyrics:

Glance
Don't stare
Soon you're being told to recognize your heirs [Ed.—could also be "airs" I suppose]

No
Not me
I'm an island of such great complexity

Stress
surrounds
in the muddy peaceful center of this town

Tell
me off
in the hotel lobby, right in front of
all the bellboys and the overfriendly concierge.

The gauzy thoughts
of the sturdy Scots
wrestle with the elements up on the trail high;
I need to know,
where does it go,
how do I get there, and what will I find?

obviously these all work better as song lyrics but well y'know

also I really love certain aspects of their songwriting, the weird left-turns which are sometimes just plain brilliant, like the hang before the chorus in "Shady Lane" that gives Malkmus time to squeeze in a few more syllables before the tension finally breaks

the edge of creation is blurred and blushed

Malkmus has so many great lines. Corgan has pretty much none, it's all high-school level notebook poetry. Corgan's strengths were primarily as a studio tech - shaping the Pumpkins sound with all those weird, layered guitars. It's clear he focused most on the craft of recording - arranging guitar parts, fiddling to find the right combo of hyper-compressed and overdriven rhythm guitars, etc. But Malkie is the superior writer in every way.

Alex Ross wrote a New Yorker article in '97 in which he made self-satisfied Ashbery comparisons.

um Pavement's '97 album title is taken from Ashbery iirc

so Malkmus kinda explicitly invited those comparisons

yeah was gonna say, not the craziest comparison in the world.

wld like to read that new yorker article if it's online

I have "self-portrait in a convex mirror" sitting open on my desk beside me — I like the idea of long-ass poems but rarely want to put in the effort to actually read them. this is pretty good so far tho.

wasn't "church on white" about a poet?

I thought that was about some dead buddy of his... also, perhaps coincidentally, the last decent song I heard from him.

man now i really wanna know who the Wallace Shawn of 90s rock is.

think church on white is supposed to be about robert bingham, who founded open city magazine, and was an author.

i think billy corgan is the wallace shawn of 90s rock? both so bald anyway.

^^^lol

um Pavement's '97 album title is taken from Ashbery iirc

It's not. Malkmus said at the time that he loved "Hotel Lautreaumont," but I'll check my Ashbery selected poems when I get home.

Billy Corgan is the Ernest Borgnine of 90s rock.

well whatevs, malkmus cited ashberry as an influence ... which means ... i don't know? what were we talking about?

It's not. Malkmus said at the time that he loved "Hotel Lautreaumont," but I'll check my Ashbery selected poems when I get home.

hmm okay - well at the very least I don't think it's fair to fault Alex Ross when Malkmus was going around trumpeting Ashbery's influence on him and the album in interviews at the time

xp

i think billy corgan is the wallace shawn of 90s rock? both so bald anyway.

― tylerw, Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:34 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

inconcievable!

who would be Corgan's My Dinner With Andre foil? Courtney?

Well, I only added 'self-congratulatory" because it was (a) a New Yorker article written in 1997 and (b) by Alex Ross.

who would be Corgan's My Dinner With Andre foil? Courtney?

lol yeah I was trying to think of this too - would have to be someone male I think. maybe one of Courtney's other paramours (Ed Norton? lol)

who would be Corgan's My Dinner With Andre foil? Courtney?
i'd probably watch this. probably not a stretch to imagine some future reality show, with corgan triying to produce courtney's new record.

or how about Malkmus HA

Malkmus can be a good lyricist, though he annoys the shit out of me sometimes...

Corgan has semi-decent moments, but he's not as good a lyricist as Malkmus, but I think he's really good at composing. If the only Pumpkins songs you hear are Cherub Rock and 1979 you're not going to know how, say, the best songs in Siamese Dreams & MCIS take strange left turns themselves and resist conforming to verse-chorus structures; think of the "I want to turn you on" part of "Today" where not only do those huge bright sunshinely guitars turn sinister on a dime, but the implicit dark undercurrents of the song ("Can't wait til tomorrow/May not have that long") break free and threaten to wreak havoc on the foreground...

You guys act like Corgan's on some BTO horseshit...I wish Ned or DJP would come in here & back me up...

I don't disagree - on those first two albums there's some really inventive song structures, it's all very well planned out. I remember reading something Corgan said at the time about how if you're going to have a 10-minute song you need to make sure that it has a bunch of different parts that evolve into one another and fit together (which kind of isn't true in a general aesthetic sense, but you can hear this approach in the songs themselves)

just went and listened to "Today" — oh shit I remember this song! I used to like it as a kid, never knew it was by the Pumpkins. dude's voice is even worse than I remember tho :/

To be honest, I'd rather listen to Siamese Dream and Gish when I want a rare fix of that Alan Moulder wall of sound.

Thru The Eyes Of Ruby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the entire output of a band Blur ended up trumping and who aren't fit to lace MES' shoes

yo

I mean, who cares what SP's lyrics are like, they write awesome cinematic spiralling unpredictable massy and often sublime music

my 2c

i keep meaning to do a one CD edit of melon collie, that and use yr illusions I&II

Corgan's voice really is insufferably whiny and thin. it's kinda passable when he's doing the quiet/breathy/dreamy thing but ugh when he starts trying to emote and sing louder it's just... ugh.

his range seems insanely limited too. like I doubt the guy can even range two octaves.

true, but he's actually got a pretty great scream, when he stops trying to sing actual notes.

LJ: bringing the otm to a sad and bereft thread!

neither one of these bands can fuck with bob seger

few can

also, I like the pink disc on MCIS, but imo the blue disc, taken by itself, would probably be second only to Pisces Iscariot as far as best Pumpkins album.

But I have weird (you could say challenging) opinions when it comes to the Pumpkins...

Saw a new Smashing Pumpkins show on TV the other week at a bar while waiting for my friend's band to start. At one point a bunch of professional wrestlers interrupted the show and were like "Stop the show! We're not letting you play anymore!" and there was punching and some wrestling right in the middle of this SP concert and I think Billy was even involved in some of the wrestling. Then at the end of the skit one of the wrestlers (wearing a skeleton costume) was victorious and he was a friend of the SP so he and Billy held up their arms in victory and all the wrestlers left the stage. Then they went into "Zero" or something. It was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

Bob Seger: bringing the overrated to a world that was doing just fine on its own

(also where's that pic?)

pavement

EMPTINESS IS LONELINESS
LONELINESS IS CLEANLINESS
CLEANLINESS IS GODLINESS
AND GOD IS EMPTY
JUST
LIKE
MEEEEEEEEEEEE

^on the pink disc

EMPTINESS IS LONELINESS
LONELINESS IS CLEANLINESS
CLEANLINESS IS GODLINESS
AND GOD IS EMPTY
AIN'T IT FUNNY
HOW THE NIGHT MOVES?

Bob Seger: bringing the overrated to a world that was doing just fine on its own

― kkvbgz (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, February 10, 2011 12:04 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

myonga's seger bootleg is KILLING it in my headphones right now omg

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/class-in-session/Content?oid=892764
found this article while googling for pavement/ashbery info — too funny not to post

Many of the lyrics on this album sound like they were transcribed at the back of a town meeting somewhere in Connecticut, with talk about stiff upper lips, visas, voice coaches, limousines, perfectly prepared roasts, wedding invitations, and so on. You almost expect to get a note from Malkmus--within three days of course--thanking you for buying the record.

"are pavements the vampy weekend of 1997?"

timely: Former Smashing Pumpkins bassist D'arcy Wretzky jailed for letting her horses run wild, then not paying the ticket http://bit.ly/hF5dhz

I thought she was dead

joeks, m@tt, about Seger: I really need to check out his early stuff sooner or later.

is D'arcy still smoking crack?

also: here's the pic

What are the best/essential Smashing Pumpkins tracks?

just say NO to collagen
http://www.awfulplasticsurgery.com/archives/darcy_wretsky_smashing_pump.jpg

Corgan looks like one of those kids who's prematurely aged 50 years

All this talk about lyrics reminds me once again how lyrics generally don't matter unless you already like the music, and sometimes not even then. I can't remember past "cool kids never had the time" or any of the choruses for smashing pumpkins songs.

I think pavement bros are mostly the same kind of people that have a much higher opinion of lyrics than me (whether they *truly* care for pavement lyrics or not). It has something to do with how most pavement bros just happen to be some sort of literary geeks for whatever odd reason.

Maybe I'm guessing too wildly here but I like this (self created) stereotype because I consider a lot of ILM bros to be book-minded people. I mean, why would anyone read Pitchfork for any other reason than liking to read things about music? Pitchfork scores and their top picks are likely turn everyone off except for lyric/book-minded nerds. Again, this is just a wild accusation based on my wild stereotyping.

lyrics generally don't matter unless you already like the music,

this is not how I listen to music, sorry.

so in my case maybe your stereotype is correct lol

(I was raised by a librarian)

days of being wild

i like reading and pavement, it's true

sweet lord fucking jesus this is the fucking pixies vs placebo thread all over again. too obvious, i'm not falling for it. where is my tin foil hat.

spiralli just you wait until I start The National vs Trail of Dead

trail of dead easy

ya obv but I fear for ILM

Trail of Dead even though Source Tags and Codes sounds like Couch's Fantasy with superfluous vocals

I like reading too

The National is a bad analogue for Pavement, tbh. Vampire Weekend is a better one. Maybe. IDK. ffs.

Spoon?

nah Spoon are all clean edges and crispness and subtle production

like a good spoon

Spoon works just fine...

maybe you should do that poll (National vs. ...AYWKUBTTOD) just so that I can know for sure whether I need to fear for ILM

I don't see any similarities between Spoon and Pavement, sorry. VW has the patrician/preppie thing but well, Pavement were never interested in African music

I mean, why would anyone read Pitchfork for any other reason than liking to read things about music?

― homeless romantic (CaptainLorax), Thursday, 10 February 2011 18:18 (11 minutes ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh44RGzwql0

sounds exactly like late pavement imo

i like the other stuff on that that sounds like archers of loaf

which archers of loaf are you thinking of here?
(didn't ppl used to compare them to pavement a lot? they actually did kinda sound like them on the first album, but much less so on the subsequent ones)

I thought Archers only had two albums...?

huh I've never listened to a series of sneaks before

that song sounds like pavement, no particular archers just some of their guitar work on the early stuff reminds me of archers in general (obv the vocalists are way diff)

I thought Archers only had two albums...?

― kkvbgz (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, February 10, 2011 1:48 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no! they had 4 studio albums, 2 EP/collections of odds and sods (actually as awesome as the studio albums, and 2 live albums

oh wow so they do.

sorry the only ones I've ever heard of were Vee Vee and Icky Mettle

damn, what happened to the bass player, she used to be cute, right?
http://www.tmz.com/2011/02/10/smashing-pumpkins-bassist-darcy-wretzky-jailed-arrested-horses-farm-michigan-ticket-failure-to-appear-bench-warrant/#comments-anchor

albino botox cowgirl

I do think m@tt is right; at heart Pavement is bro music, and I think that a lot of the schmindie they ushered in is bro music too...which makes me wonder why I dislike it so much. I do know that most of the guys I would call 'bros' irl would much rather listen to Pumpkins then Anco or Pavement or Spoon or LCD or anything like that...

(hey Louis what about LCD?)

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/68/Darcy002.jpg

(also, I wonder where D'Arcy lived in Michigan?)

Methsville

Heroin Twp

zing

oh man, an LCD S vs TOD poll would lead to real bloodshed, and I don't even like TOD *that* much

LCD S vs The Fall = use of the suggest ban function

yeah p much

sorry the only ones I've ever heard of were Vee Vee and Icky Mettle

― kkvbgz (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, February 10, 2011 1:53 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i really love all the nation's airports (3rd studio) and the last studio (white trash heroes) is a p cool left-turn once you get used to it...

but man, if you don't have Vs. the Greatest of All Time and Speed of Cattle (2 ep comps) you are missing some classics of the early period!

(also, I wonder where D'Arcy lived in Michigan?)

Real answer: Watervliet

Don Van Watervliet

(That's what I used to think whenever I drove by that city on I-94.)

Watervliet is not that far from where I live...

(I've thought about the Van Watervliet thing too)

hell, 'That Sound Wiped' is a zillion times better at dancepop than anything J Murphy has done

ok I'll zip it

I read that as J. Mascis for a second there.

Oof! Darcy Wrecked-tzky

1979
Soma
Mayonaise

Any of these 3 songs alone destroys Pavement's entire catalog.

those three songs aren't better than "loretta's scars," "unfair," "here," "stop breathin'," or "gold soundz"

TS: smugness vs megalomania

― gallagher 3 (latebloomer), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 7:09 PM (Yesterday)

indie autism vs. megalomania

of course john lennon is going to have a fondness for 1979

I thought this was a good question because of

*Their stupid childish feud that really seems to only entail Corgan whining and Malkmus just kinda laughing back at him and sorta not taking it seriously..
*I honestly don't know which of these 2 bands I like better. In my brain they seem pretty equal right now.
*Chronologically they pretty much covered almost exactly the same span of years and what seems to be a fairly equal output of music.
*Range Life
*I was hoping something like what took place mid-thread would happen.

lmao buzza

Who should I vote for?

whatever i wont

those three songs aren't better than "loretta's scars," "unfair," "here," "stop breathin'," or "gold soundz"

― reggie (qualmsley), Thursday, February 10, 2011 10:40 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

Oh hell yeah they are.

Loretta's Scars is really good.

Those 3 songs are miles above Pavements catalog...holy shit. The closest Pavement ever got to being good was Stop Breathing, which is a well-written song that the band still couldn't pull off. Why were they so goddamned lazy?

(Corgan, otoh, obviously tried too hard.)

Pumpkins had much lower lows and much higher highs.

Those 3 songs are miles above Pavements catalog...holy shit. The closest Pavement ever got to being good was Stop Breathing, which is a well-written song that the band still couldn't pull off. Why were they so goddamned lazy?

― Damo Suzuki's Dead Parrot (kkvgz), Friday, 11 February 2011 11:42 (30 minutes ago) Bookmark

ydgi

I don't want to have to.

I will admit, the only records I've heard by them are S&E and CR, CR, but they are both so annoying to listen to that I don't really feel like making an effort or expanding the breadth of my knowledge or anything.

boys are dying on these streets

I will admit, the only records I've heard by them are Gish and Siamese Dream, but they are both so annoying to listen to that I don't really feel like making an effort or expanding the breadth of my knowledge or anything.

(actually parts of gish are ok and wtf, "1979" is pretty undeniable)

yeah I dl'd 1979 yesterday after not having heard it in years and years (I have never been able to stomach the entirety of Colin Meloy and our Infinite Silliness) and that song is kind of both the peak and the end of SP.

I never saw Pavement live but I saw Smashing Pumpkins twice, on the Siamese Dream tour, both times disappointing because the band couldn't play together: Corgan keep speeding up the songs ahead of Chamberlain, or else Chamberlain played too slow; I dunno, but either way the songs sounded like a mess.

I voted for Smashing Pumpkins here because they're our generation's Boston.

xp with '33' being the zwan song

**BRINGING THREAD BACK FULL CIRCLE**:

Pavement "covered" 1979 at a couple shows iirc.

Man, our generation's Boston! Awesome.

Boston >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smashing Pumpkings, c'mon now.

yeah, the dude in boston could really sing.

totally

hence "our generation's"

they both stink but pavement could take the pumpkins in a fight

Shasta OTM about Boston. I mean I guess they're similar as far as being the studio projects of megalomaniacs but yeah, the Boston dude has decent pipes.

Boston's riffs still deeply resonate 35 years later. Pumpkins? gtfo.

MARK MY WORDS

35 years after Gish or Siamese Dream, nobody but a cult niche of awkward dudes will even care... unlike the legions of rockers still ever-faithful to MORE THAN A FEELING to this very day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSR6ZzjDZ94

Lol awkward dudes, kill EM all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR9aRK2HdNc

Steve heeds the urgency of now.

pavement could take the pumpkins in a fight

this depends on whether gary young is included imo

Bob could be pretty aggressive I bet.

Both bands are way better than fucking Boston.

I have horrible songs from "Third Stage" stuck in my head now..

I'd just like to say fuck this thread for all of you saying "oh i remember "Today" from when I was a kid" THANK YOU FOR MAKNG ME FEEL OLD.

I saw both bands in the early 90 in a little pub before either got famebloated. They were good then. Then they sucked. Its kind of a tie.

I wouldn't suprised if Malkmus was a sincere Pumpkins fan. His lines about them in "Range Life" could be read as ambigously complimentary.

i envision spiral and d'arcy in a slap fight, iha pretending he knows karate before nastanovich kicks his ass, ibold and westie staring at the sky, corgan and malkmus battling with epees and malkmus slowly cutting him up like indigo montoya did to christopher guest.

but jimmy chamberlin and gary young are just mauling each other mma stylee until everyone else turns away in disgust at the carnage.

gish is awesome, an all time psych rock jam, and there are good songs after that, but come on, this isn't fair. malkmus solo >>>>> smashing pumpkins

I always had this pet hypothesis that SP fans were just big romantics in one sense of the word or another. For ppl with heavy feelings! For ppl who like dragons, you know?

I got into SP because they really touched an emotional nerve with me at age 15 + I liked that there was a lot of makeup in their videos. Pavement I got into bcz my friends and I saw them play on 120 Minutes (iirc) and we thought Bob Nastonovich had to be the developmentally delayed brother of one of the four other guys on the screen.

I no longer think that btw, Bob seems like a sharp dude in interviews.

I took a side.

I sure hope ilx doesn't disappoint here

can't see how pavement could possibly lose, given they made the obvious best song of the decade "gold soundz"

Slanted & Enchanted; Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain; Wowee Zowee, Terror Twilight

vs.

Siamese Dream

----
"I've got style, miles and miles, so much style that it's wasted"

vs.

"Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage"

the obvious best song of the decade "gold soundz"

oh my

"go back to those gold sounds/and keep your ice cream to yourself/cause it's central/not essential/and we're comin to the chorus now"

I wonder if the same people who like Pavement also like Kesha too

I like all three.

85% of ppl who vote Pavement here think that In Rainbows is Radiohead's best album...

the obvious best song of the decade "gold soundz"

oh my

― van smack, Sunday, February 20, 2011 6:06 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

85% of ppl who vote Pavement here think that In Rainbows is Radiohead's best album...

― kingkongvsbasedgodzilla (Drugs A. Money), Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

not getting thoust joke? pavement appeals to me on the basis's of it's occasional brutality, it's sawing guitars, it's peculiar riffs/melodies and of all, malkmus's mere existence. i think "my bloody valentine >" every time i listen to a smashing pumpkins... it's overkill of the simplicity mbv achieved with that crushing guitar sound. but anyways, what i'm getting to is that the bends is my favvie radiohead album. i tried making all the aforementioned relevant... i tried :(

Don't stress it kelp; just tryin to gather all my pet peeves into one post. I spent an hour working out how I could shoehorn a mention of the governor of WI in there, but to no avail...

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

the obvious best song of the decade "gold soundz"

oh my

― van smack, Sunday, February 20, 2011 6:06 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

think ilxor was tryna be meta-snarky here [via sarcastic pitchfork ref]

― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:46 AM (4 hours ago)

I had no idea that p4k named that the best song of the decade. I just looked that up. Oh my *massive facepalm*

yeah

best music poll result of the 2010s imo

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Almost exactly 2:1! Pretty much how I figured.

http://img.search.com/thumb/9/93/ElectoralCollege1936-Large.png/400px-ElectoralCollege1936-Large.png

I quit

Whole bunch of wankers.

oh no this is not what i expected at all :(

lol duh

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2010/10/reagan-mondale-1984-electoral-college-map.jpg

it was supposed to be a tie. you were all supposed to vote for a tie.

I dl'd Wowee Zowee last week in hopes of bettering my knowledge of Pavement. I guess they kind of sound like The Band if the Band didn't care much for tunes.

wrong result, #s should be reversed :(

I agree with this poll.

I always had this pet hypothesis that SP fans were just big romantics in one sense of the word or another. For ppl with heavy feelings! For ppl who like dragons, you know?

― Peter Pepsi (Abbbottt), Saturday, February 12, 2011 5:55 AM (1 week ago) Bookmark

definitely

I voted SP btw! "Adore" sounds way better than anything Pavement ever did.

SP has about 50 songs that fit that description imo

sounding good was never Pavement's strong suit, admittedly

I meant the whole album, rly, never was sure what style one followed for song titles v albums.

oh yeah i was thinking of "Ava Adore"

Nachos: Yes No
TS: Pavement / Smashing Pumpkins

haha cant believe yall like smashing pumpkins

pavement will win this and I will never understand what awful lurks inside a nerd's mind

― homeless romantic (CaptainLorax)

i don't even like smashing pumpkins all that much, i just like them tons more than pavement

smashing pumpkins are a passable singles band that never even understood what they were good at

Corgan definitely has very little idea of what music of his is good and why it's good, but he's made enough of it that there's plenty worth hearing

Corgan, among others, taught me how important vocals are. I can't get past how gross and ugly his voice sounds.

confession: looked for the 'like' button on ice cr?m's post. can we get a like button already?

ugh too much time on facebook son

i don't even like smashing pumpkins all that much, i just like them tons more than pavement
― some dude, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 03:07 (1 hour ago)

^this

..

Corgan, among others, taught me how important vocals are. I can't get past how gross and ugly his voice sounds.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, February 22, 2011 3:15 AM (1 hour ago)

I never thought of his voice as gross and ugly. Pavement's singer, on the other hand, sounds like a very poor man's Jeff Tweedy. After looking at some pics of Pavement's singer just now, I'm led to believe that he's an anal retentive jerk.

haha i can't even

visual appearances are more telling than one might imagine. plus he lives in portland

Not that there are a whole lot of you on this particular thread, but I really wish Corgan would stop furthering diluting the brand so that we can reach that point where the Pumpkins become more like, I don't know, Rush (to pull an answer out of my back pocket), and they can be judged solely on the music instead of some weird projection of what their "fans" must be like. Rush may not be the best example, but its the first band that came to mind when I was trying to think of a band that spend times packing arenas and being really popular before becoming a somewhat dismissed, "uncool" band with a dedicated fanbase. Of course the big difference is Rush kept on moving forward and made more good records than bad one during the thin years and were better able to come through it with a fairly strong legacy intact. At this point Corgan seems intent on destroying any and all goodwill. But, for my money, the run from Gish to Adore was pretty fucking amazing, especially when you consider all the great non-album material.

But, for my money, the run from Gish to Adore MACHINA was pretty fucking amazing, especially when you consider all the great non-album material.

Nah, Machina had way too much bloat. Combine the best of it with the best of Machina II and then maybe we can talk.

smashing pumpkins are a passable singles band

...with a shitload of awesome b-sides and album tracks

haha cant believe yall like smashing pumpkins

a strong argument

the run from Gish to Adore was pretty fucking amazing, especially when you consider all the great non-album material.

OTM

visual appearances are more telling than one might imagine. plus he lives in portland

― dead flies on a chain (CaptainLorax)

haha great post!

After looking at some pics of Pavement's singer just now, I'm led to believe that he's an anal retentive jerk.

Haha as opposed to the easygoing and generous Billy Corgan?

when is Pitchfork gonna start their own message board?

Nah, Machina had way too much bloat. Combine the best of it with the best of Machina II and then maybe we can talk.

b-but machina is my fav pumpkins record ;_;

You're entitled to your opinion and all but that is o_O to me. I mean, picking that album above Gish, Siamese Dream, or Mellon Collie is crazy.

Try, Try, Try is the only post-Adore song I'll fuck with (besides Zwan's Iron Maiden cover, but I think that's all Pajo...?)

I could v well be wrong in tis though...jon/via/chi 2.0 totally otm regarding everything else tho!

meanwhile Pavement is easily one of the least interesting bands on Matador; you guys deserve schmindie!

May your inboxes be stuffed with Pomplamoose and Mumford & Sons vids....

I saw Zwan three times before their album dropped, once in Indy for the acoustic Djali Zwan thing and twice during their five-night Metro stand and I was really excited about them - one hell of a live band. Pajo and Sweeney had a huge impact live and were given plenty of time to shine. But of course it all came crashing down when Corgan turned back into a control freak in the studio and made it all about himself.

SP fans are whiney

seriously the butthurtedness in this thread... nagl

meanwhile Pavement is easily one of the least interesting bands on Matador; you guys deserve schmindie!

― if music be the fuiud of love then piss off (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:04 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

lol i love when ppl say this like they're all o.g. with their railroad jerk lps or something

sp fans take on the persona of their leader mr. billy c.

Voted pumpkins.
Have owned 2 pavement albums, 0 pumpkins.
Currently have 0 songs by either.
Have seen both in concert. pumpkins booed off stage opening for rhcp.
Comes down to a very low tolerance of clever/jokey/ironic songwriting which Pavement is full of.

there's a weird Sarah Palin effect with Corgan here - like the more he gets bashed/criticized the more his fans take that as a sign of his righteous genius

SP is just the same deal album after album. I guess they went for the electro-craze/drum machines back then, but who didn't? Not like a particularly ingenius move.

but holy shit at final votes, i voted pavement but surely thought billy corgan & the zeros would win.

I feel like Shakey Mo is reading a different thread. I see a few people trying to explain why they like/voted for the Pumpkins but I don't see a whole lot of butthurtedness.

meanwhile Pavement is easily one of the least interesting bands on Matador; you guys deserve schmindie!

― if music be the fuiud of love then piss off (Drugs A. Money), Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:04 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

lol i love when ppl say this like they're all o.g. with their railroad jerk lps or something

Suggest Ban Permalink
― call all destroyer, Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:33 AM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

oh you've mentioned the Railroad Jerks; way to prove me wrong. It's almost as if Yo La Tengo, GBV, Liz Phair, Moonshake, Bailter Space, Bardo Pond, The Fall, Superchunk, Bettie Serveert, Couch, Helium, and Unsane weren't every one of them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pavement

Couch!

Come Up With The Most Boring Band Name Possible

Would take Yo La and Moonshake over both fer sure.

xp to jvc2; I'm certainly being a bit butthurt, but yeah Shakey's reading another thread:

there's a weird Sarah Palin effect with Corgan here - like the more he gets bashed/criticized the more his fans take that as a sign of his righteous genius

like where is he getting this from?

I'm not even that huge of a Pumpkins fan anymore, pretty big in high school, still think they have a bunch of good songs, but they're nowhere near my favorite band. I'm more pissed about Pavement getting all these accolades...wtf? CR, CR is the way-more-boring predecessor for whatever super-excoriated indie record gets mountains of abuse heaped on it?

bnw otm most of those other bands are better than Pumpkins too

I'm just makin up strawmen don't mind me. probably inferring to much from his slavishly compiled wikipedia entry

too much

I'm not saying frightening Corganites that defend his every move as if holy scripture don't exist, I just don't see any of them on this thread.

Pavement are the poor man's Cracker.

rich man's Cracker

cracker man's pavement

god damn the cracker man

Smashing Pumpkins are the whiny cracker's My Chemical Romance

MCR for the Malkmus Generation

smashing pumpkins is the pop band equivalent of the movie Krull. Krull can be a ton of fun to watch, but all the while you are - consciously or not - making allowances for the fact that it is Krull. likely you were kinda young when you first saw it and you still have some fond memories. most people will probably get on board with Krull being kinda fun once in a while, but if you try to compare it to a real movie, that's just embarrassing for everyone concerned.

rmde

nah SP are more like a great-looking big budget sci-fi flick that's ultimately kind of vapid and in love with itself but still pretty enjoyable on a visceral level and respectable for some of its craftsmanship. Pavement seem more like Krull based on your description.

"the railroad jerks"

was this on purpose or

lol no not really

hahah ok

nah SP are more like a great-looking big budget sci-fi flick that's ultimately kind of vapid and in love with itself but still pretty enjoyable on a visceral level and respectable for some of its craftsmanship

sooo... Fifth Element?

Kinda, but there's not a trace of any FIFTH ELEMENT tongue-in-cheek in SP. Enfold a fourteen year-old's sense that everyday's-the-end-of-the-world-melodrama-a-dozen-exclamation-marks and you might be close.

p sure the emptiness is loneliness quote is supposed to be tongue in cheek...

My thirteen year-old soul knows that every word that left Corgan's mouth meant what it said, nary a trace of irony.

Corgan is one lyricist where i have absolutely no idea to what degree he really means it and how much is calculated or ironic or condescending to the audience

if Yo La Tengo, GBV, Liz Phair, Moonshake, Bailter Space, Bardo Pond, The Fall, Superchunk, Bettie Serveert, Couch, Helium, and Unsane weren't every one of them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pavement

Whoa whoa guys let's walk away before somebody says something they're gonna regret and not be able to take back.

xp well he did release a book of poetry so that's one clue imo

So did Jewel, that really doesn't get us anywhere.

? what about Liz Phair, Phil ?

Corgan's a straight shooter, yes. Don't much care for him beyond, y'know, SIAMESE-DREAM-AND-THAT-ONE-SONG-ON-THE-SINGLES-SOUNDTRACK-4-EVA, but I've never detected a bit of lyrical indirection on his part.

I mean even assuming we're restricting ourselves to Liz's Matador output, that still leaves us most of Whitechocolatespaceegg to contend with, of which "Cut Your Hair" and "Range Life" alone are better.

So did Jewel, that really doesn't get us anywhere.

― All you have to do is combine 1 to 7 with (a) to (d) and you should ha (Phil D.), Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:14 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

hahaha i think that actually gets us a lot of places!

Let's hope this all leads to a convoluted New-York-School-Poets analogy.

Actually Phil you're kinda right...haven't heard much of WCSE but CR, CR is a better album than Whip Smart (though I'll take the best songs from the latter over the best from the former in a heartbeat)...I guess I just thought Exile is _that_ good that it could take the handicap of her subsequent output and still comes out better than Pavement...

...and it would, if it weren't for Gary Young, he is easily the most appealing part of the Pavement mythos. The rest is proto-Anco horse-hockey

in short: "Malkmus? More like Chalkmus, amirite?"

proto-anco? do i even want to know?

I don't

horses play hockey now?

I've said too much!

no way, bob nastanovich was a riot in concert. guy was non-stop energy, even ambushing & gagging one of the crew guys at one point.

pavement are one of those bands - probably because they're so normal, and thus serve as sort of a blank slate onto which people can project whatever they're feeling at the time - about which people have these crazy emotional irrationalities and theories about. proto-anco? what the hell does this mean? your problem is probably with their canonization, dude, not their music. they were just a fuckin indie rock band

i mean, they were a great indie rock band that wrote great songs, but come on

yeah I don't really see any similarities with Animal Collective. they're both composed of white guys, I guess?

guys! i don't want to know!

a huge part of the appeal of pavement for me was basically considering it the band me & my friends would sound like if we were all even capable enough to form one. and that this band didn't suck.. it was like the idealistic version of one.

bullshit fuckin poll

lol

despite how i squeal i am still just a mouse in a wheel

― some dude, Wednesday, February 9, 2011 10:18 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark

this was great!

credit goes to whatever kid my brother was friends with in high school that i heard it from originally

bullshit fuckin poll

yeah Pavement should have won in a Reagan/FDR-type 49-state landslide.

What director would you want to work with?

At one point I almost worked with Darren Aronofsky. It didn't work out, but it was nothing bad, just didn't happen. I'd love to work with him because I think he really gets it, music wise. Scorsese. I don't think he knows I exist, but he has such an incredibly intuitive understanding of how to put music in film.

I think about that scene in "Mean Streets" with Harvey Keitel all the time, where the camera is fixed to him as he rolls into the bar and the Rolling Stones are playing, it's magic.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, I mean as a musician, I die for that moment. It just doesn't get any better than that. I would also love to just sit and listen to him break down a scene from his perspective. And Tarantino too.

What film would you live inside of, if you could?

I've been living in the film "Andrei Rublev" by (Andrei) Tarkovsky for about 15 years (laughs). It's a beautiful film about art, about being an artist. It's set in, you know, 1600's Russia, or sometime equally bleak.

http://www.ifc.com/news/2011/07/billy-corgan-and-the-fools-journey-pt-2.php

I'm still upset this wasn't a draw.

Round 2: Neil Hagerty vs. Pumpkins

https://twitter.com/TheHowlingHex/status/820748333094502400

hmm... Billy is not a Trump supporter

is that what Alex Jones told you

oh, please. the only times I've ever listened or watched Infowars have been when Billy was a guest. he's never said anything hateful or discriminatory on there, it's all very hippy dippy spiritual stuff. and yeah, he's bought gold in bulk before, distilled water etc... he's a bit cuckoo. but not hateful. he's a contrarian and a conspiracy theorist, can't deny that.